Walter Williams and Milton Friedman on Unions

In this classic clip from the 1980 PBS series, Walter Williams and Milton Friedman mix it up with the teamsters on the subject of labor unions. Which does more for the conditions of the worker -- the free market or unions?
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[@JK-vc7ie]

Civilized discussion. No personal attacks from either side. Refreshing and impressive.

[@Johnconno]

Because it's 50 years old.

[@brianknittle6642]

It is wonderful to see men that are in strong disagreement, discuss an issue like gentlemen.

[@greggwagner875]

I highly recommend watching Milton Friedman on the Phil Donahue show promoting his book free to choose from 1979. Very civil and in depth discussion.

[@Gretchaninov]

True, but even back then, the arguments are far more solid and consistent on one side than on the other. The left's standards have just gone way down - all of politics has! In part, thanks to dumbed down public education.

[@donelmore2540]

J K This video was cut way too short. I got the feeling that as it went on what started of as more or less civilized was going to devolve quickly.

[@josecuervo4423]

I wish people could debate like this nowadays, that is something I would watch.

[@Faddidaddi]

R.I.P Walter Williams

Walter Williams is a great man. I sent him a couple emails a couple years ago and he replied to me right away

[@stevesapiary]

Me too! I sent something to him once not expecting a reply but I got one a few days later. Made my day.

[@MrDavital1]

Whereas I emailed Milton Friedman and he didn't get back to me.

[@randomdude9135]

He's jobless?

[@RobertMichael]

That’s awesome!

[@omara6292]

Walter Williams passed away earlier today. RIP to this brilliant economist and intellect.

[@HansonjSolo]

You are in High School and watching videos featuring Milton Friendman? Dude, you rock.

[@ChrysanthsMum]

I’ve been in a union for 28 years. Its main purpose is to save the jobs of people who should have been fired and promote the inept.

[@ScottyBleez]

It took you a while Dr. Friedman, but at the very end it all made sense. Governments giving special privileges to unions while denying those same privileges to others is unequal treatment and thus discrimination. All of these economists basically agree that discrimination causes unequal economic outcomes. The pro-union men see the positive side of the discrimination while the anti-union men see how exclusion from these unions was unfair. (Because the government is a monopoly on violence. They have the power to assist or hinder your efforts in becoming prosperous with the force of violence and imprisonment)

[@ripperduck]

Unions were esssentusl in the elimination of child labor, establishment of work place safety, the creation of the eight hour day, and established a mechanism in which pay was predicated on productivity. I guess you think all that are special privileges..,

[@SI-vo3fb]

If you think only unions lobby politicians then you’re oblivious to how the government is currently structured, not to say it’s right or wrong but every group has a set of lobbyist for the sole purpose of influencing politicians to champion their bill or law, etc. there are far worse groups lobbying for their interest, drug companies, tobacco, etc. unions wield some power to hold companies accountable if they’re acting in a manner that would adversely affect the workers. Yes, there are pluses and minuses to unions but the pluses outweigh the minuses.. I don’t see to many union workers fighting for pay equality

[@Bread996]

@@ripperduck They did a lot for the working man through the 19th century certainly. The reasonable working conditions they fought for have been put into law today as universal for all wage earners. The question is what is the purpose today? Now unions do more harm than good. The corruption is widely publicized throughout the 20th century through today. There are many government projects that REQUIRE union labor. This automatically excludes companies like mine which are non-union. This is the type of favoratism that Milton is speaking about.

[@vaibhav2k13]

The standard of debate though :')

[@johnpatmos1722]

I am amazed as we look back just a few decades and see discussions among people with a wide variety of opinion, all sitting in one room! Today, it is generally the show of your choice. If you want liberal you go here; if you want conservative you go there.

[@HaleStorm49]

Liberal ideas are unsuited for this type of venue.

[@charlycash]

Because these people actually wanted to help and make the country better. They actually cared. They're highly intelligent.

[@drsch]

It's an expected outcome. Progressive ideology, as it achieves success and popularity, will undoubtedly erode the basic freedoms of citizens. Freedom of speech is restricted and thus if you have any ideas that are in disagreement, they're labeled "hate speech" and squashed. Progressives today simply cannot abide alternative ideas and free thinking because those are in violation of their own political principles.

[@diego67hd94]

Oh Hale YEAH! Thank you for demonstrating the exact lack of respect of the other that is the problem today.

[@spencerantoniomarlen-starr3069]

This was the only show like that on the air at the time. It has never been the norm.

[@SevenRiderAirForce]

The idea of the freedom to organize makes perfect sense. Being given special privileges / exclusivity does not. Some animals are more equal than others, it seems.

[@stratocaster1986able]

Milton was like a boss.

[@kernals12]

stratocaster1986able He was an idiot who never had to live with the consequences of his ideas

[@JanKowalski-uk6hv]

@@kernals12 his ideas were put in Chile in 1970's and Chile was doing the greatest results according to prosperity.

[@santouchesantouche2873]

That's not a compliment

[@juanme555]

@Jan Kowalski Still doing , also , Panama copied Chile and they surpassed Argentina and Uruguay massively too.

[@staxstirner]

@@tarkfarhen3870 That's not socialist lol

[@kleinslinger2]

I've been listening to a lot of Thomas Sowell, he would fit in well with this debate.

[@adulby]

I love how Milton just sits back and watches them argue. Then he closes with awe inspiring conviction and logic. Leaves me speechless every time.

[@lexingtonconcord8751]

Highly intelligent discussion. I wish similar discussions would be held on a number of topics today and every future day.

[@jbenjamin06]

why don't we have talk shows like this anymore!!!!!!

[@ASeventhSign]

"Workers aren't leaving in droves..." right. It's their jobs that are leaving.

[@chuckragsdale2904]

I miss Walter Williams! 💙

[@chrisyo4461]

I love hearing smart people debate. This kind of smart discussion is so and far apart...I wish we could return to this type of talks

[@Liminein]

The postal service in my area has constantly misplaced, shoved or mishandled my mail for quite some time. After a 100.00 parcel came up missing I contacted the supervisor only to hear “it’s hard to get the carriers to follow the rules because they’re unions make it impossible to discipline or fire them.” Lovely

[@lithiusx]

Where are these gentlemanly discussions these days...?

[@i_am_thebatman]

Dr. Walter Williams just spoke at our YAF conference such a smart man.

[@SeatBill]

Agreed! I've read every book that man's written...and most of his columns, too. Same thing with Thomas Sowell. To me, Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell are both worth 100,000 Barack Obamas - especially to black people!

[@naeroled]

@@SeatBill while you may look up to WW bc of his conservative lean, his ideological toeing of the line here as it relates to Union was half truth at best and at worst a lie. The responder representing the steel workers easily dismantled his argument and had he more time would've completely obliterated his simpleton caricaturization of labor unions...

[@nickfernandez7563]

Back when debates were civilized, facts were taken into account, the debaters held accountable, and the questions weren’t rigged for one side or the other.

[@GregoryTheGr8ster]

At 1:11, I like how Mr. United Steel Workers of America asserts that union membership was not declining. Private sector membership was 18-19% in 1980, and now it is around 7-8%. He probably still thinks that union membership is not declining.

[@TehCommentMaster]

To my other favorite W.W. It was an honor working with you back in the 80s. Fondly, G.B.

[@bell191991]

well that was about to get very interesting...

[@dreadrocksean]

Yes. Saddest cut ever.

[@BigJBizz]

Such a difference in both the debaters and the audience from then to now.

[@SupermanJH68]

Fantastic discussion. All are open to others comments, and tend towards patience when interrupted. Enjoy this old school style of round table discussion.

[@amadgenius]

This is such great stuff!

[@ArtWeClever]

Unions nose dived from the period of this film til' now.... it's funny to watch now.

[@atx4fun]

Two of my biggest economic influencers are Walter Williams and Milton Freidman, but I will say this. This small group sitting in a circle in 5 minutes made better and more effective points than all of Congress has in the last 20 years. We have not groomed people to be as effective and eloquent as any of this group. I also find it interesting that back in 1980, you have Black speakers who are well educated, successful and respected in a time when we were supposedly racist and hindering opportunities for non whites. Liberalism, removal of God and single parent families have done far more harm to Blacks and other minorities than racism. Racism is blatant condemnation, but Liberalism is disguised as helping you destroy yourself.

[@surveysays8335]

What's tragic is that we can't have discussions like this anymore. Milton would have been called a racist, a bigot, a any other bad name to make his opinions less relevant. At some point people quit caring about TRUTH, and what works, and gave into tribalism. I think it happened when we lost the cohesiveness of our ONE tribe. We are ONE, we are Americans thats our tribe.

[@shanehenderson8756]

Now thats how you debate, these men for the most showed great respect for each other..."Come let us reason together".

[@brianbob7514]

I love this

[@LPFan33]

I never see discussions like this on TV

[@scopeless22]

If a worker "bust their ass" and was not rewarded, he would take his skill to an employer who pays more. Thats how the market works. I worked at walmart for 5 years, and showed skill in my field. I was offered a job in management, but at the time I was already in talks with home depot and they offered me management position for higher pay. I took it. This enables that those are paid based on the demand of their skill. If wal-mart wants better workers, they know to raise their pay.

[@SuperDoglover567]

Great American patriots. The more people who see these clips of Williams, Friedman, Sowell, etc., the better off we'll be.

[@alvarc3675]

Milton Friedman speaks, everyone listen

[@chefgromano5025]

Walter Williams cadence similar to Sowell. Love both!

[@johnmarkharris]

The way in which labor unions disadvantage people is that they do not allow low skilled poor people to get on the job training. Unions protect the people who HAVE jobs, at the expense of those who would get a job. A business owner might keep only 20% of its "high skilled" workers, but pay them a 10% premium to train new low skilled workers! whom they could pay at a 60% rate, and hire twice as many!!!! Unions keep unemployment artificially high, that's just math.

[@kernals12]

John Harris So how come unemployment was lower when unions were stronger?

[@johnmarkharris]

That's a confusing statement. 1958 Union influence was at an all time high and unemployment was 6.8%. Any idea what it is today?

[@kernals12]

John Harris Unemployment between 1947 and 1973 averaged 4.8%, since then, it's been 6.1%.

[@crewcab1984rv]

I work in construction Union where Non Union Illegals are strong in numbers but once they learn the trade good they demand top pay once they realize what they are worth and that is after about 8-12 years

[@jesusnthedaisychain]

Labor unions have something called "apprenticeships." I know, crazy concept, right? They take low-skilled workers and give them training both in the classroom and on the job.

[@KiCreativeStudioJP]

Ernest Green was one of The Little Rock Nine. I was surprised to see him here.

[@GobiLux]

Is it mandatory to clap every time somebody says "but what about the slaves?"?

[@mzk1489]

Oh, has labor violence stopped?

[@rothbardfreedom]

The Axiom of Human Action shows that voluntary acts always bring value, and coercive ones bring de-value.

[@chaddad1236]

Good line

[@foxbodyblues6709]

Very well said

[@DarthBalsamic]

If only these types of programs still existed to discuss these types of topics. In the end, I agree with Friedman wholly.

[@sjustinb]

If I work at a company where the labor is part of a union then I have to join the union and pay into it(even if I don't want to). If this situation occurs it is force!

[@NedReck6967]

Government employees should never have been allowed to unionize. period.

[@xlfutur1]

Labor unions certainly have a place in the workplace and should be an option if someone chooses to be a member. But why force someone to join a union against their will? Its ironic (and obviously hypocritical) that liberals who so advocate "pro-choice", are against the choice to opt out of joining a labor union.

[@kernals12]

xlfutur1 If you don't want to be in a union, get another job.

[@dr.funkenstein9790]

Not only are yo forced to join a union, you’re forced to pay union dues as well

[@Matthew-Anthony]

Will Poundstone If you want to force other people to join labor unions, move to a different country.

[@YouAintGotNoTegridyBoi]

@@kernals12 how about fuck you instead? It isn't that easy getting a job in certain professions if you only have certain qualifications.

[@johnjacobjingle7177]

This was normal discourse of a past time when boys were given character by their fathers and church. Most children get neither.

[@Johnconno]

'Unions? Take no prisoners.' Milton Friedman.

[@cato451]

wow. grown ups discussing issues with nuance. why can’t we witness discussion like this anymore?

[@SealofPerfection]

Unions were very important when they first were started. Worker's pay and the conditions wasn't fair in many cases. But that's over now. The unions accomplished what they were really needed for. Then...they had gotten so big that they didn't want to scale back and just maintain and police things.....oh no, they wanted more and more and more. They bullied and went on strike and, in the case of autoworkers, got pay/benefits that is WAY out of line with the skills of the job and what it deserves. I think they are needed, but nowhere near at the scale they are. And they damn sure need to get that whole union mentality out of here. That's a cancer.

[@ssn0651]

The issue is closed shop vs right to work states . Unions add another layer of cost between the supplier and the consumer which have nothing to do with , or contribute to the product or service being offered .

[@continentalbreakfast5182]

Where can i find the full debate, anyone?

[@SuperGuitarman69]

@darlinglittlemammy You are exactly correct.. And well put I may add.. In economics it is known as the market equilibrium.. It is the most important factor in employment development.. If workers (say auto) price themselves above the market equilibrium it forces others to suffer unemployment. The factory suffers diminished marginal utility.. Lower output.. Which in turn hurts the very company that is trying to keep the doors open so they can keep their union jobs...

[@hhn1000]

It turned out to be true that union members were leaving. AT 1/2011 the percentage slipped down to 11%, lowest in 70 years.

[@TheBoozehounde]

Look at union wages for GM compared to the company that reopened the closed factory in Dayton. GM was paying $27 an hour at starting wages. Now a manager at Fuyao Glass is paid $14. Large factories moved overseas to get cut out unions in the US. Yes, people can now purchase a pair of shoes at Walmart for $20 but now many Americans lack quality paying jobs.

[@AynManRand]

@ArtWeClever It had been diving in this period too. In 1975 Labour was 25% of the workforce, in 1965 it was almost 30%.

[@michaellowe2305]

That was embarrassing to see the union rep try to argue with Walter Williams and Milton Friedman

[@maxscott3349]

You don't need a union to assemble.

[@thebronxguy916]

Milton Friedman said it best about Government Unions

[@scrappy1070]

Is there a Part II to this somewhere?

[@prolarka]

In my experience from working for a company that many workers complained about. Workers started to organise, created a union to better defend their interests. The company gradually adopted changes and created standard procedures for listening to its workforce. As these changes happened the union have become obsolete and workers gradually abandoned them. And I think that is the way how it should work. The faster the employer and its employees can get to a mutually accepted agreement the more efficient the company can be. It is in the interest of both parties to not use an additional, unnecessary intermediate representative body, which has a cost. When the employer does not offer acceptable conditions to its employees and it is not changing its attitude toward the employees then it makes sense to create a Union for the purpose of forcing out a necessary change in the company. The best possible situation is when the workers do not need a separate union because they are listened to by the management to begin with.

[@prolarka]

The government was not needed to grant any privileges to the union. It was only common sense for the company to change its approach.

[@bmg0079]

Walter Williams is a badass with a kick ass suit and hair cut. He put those chumps in their place.

[@itisnateyork]

Workers on the whole are paid MORE when union density is high. A collective bargaining entity which groups a large share of any given labor sector will reduce the supply of alternatives and push wages up, even for those who aren't members. Research on wages and new wealth show this time and time again over the span of the 19th century, with a heavy correlation with union density.

[@glennroberts461]

Raw material is free. It's in the Earth. The cost of everything you buy is labor. Farming, trucking, milling, machining, manufacturing, engineering. All labor providing a product. And among it all, government providing very little useful product, just taking your money and telling you what to do. So remember, when your union gets a raise your Congressperson gets a bigger one. And so does your union leadership

[@luvitluvitbaby]

@HumbleWillis Good point.

[@lefticy]

amazing to listen to ... today the steel industry is in shambles ... most of the factories are in the controll of forigen hands.. that was 30 years ago..

[@panama-canada]

Look at them! People who have never worked with their hands in their lives discuss trade unions!!!

[@ssjwes]

No matter what you believe this show is great for debate. You don't see this type debate anymore.

[@Cheapers-Vac]

Yeah!! What Milton Friedman said at the last is right on ! He is even being unconsciously Biblical in his speech and Agreeing with God All Mighty ! Go look it up !

[@glennroberts461]

While initially the goal of unions was to protect the worker it has devolved into protecting the union. And that is the problem. Unions are responsible for inflation but the under-educated unionized worker doesn't understand that. He is conned into thinking he is going to get more money. But that causes the price on the product he makes to go up so the guy who buys that product wants more money. Then his product increases in price. And so the circle goes until the first guy sees he needs more money to buy what he needs.

[@thatflywelshguy9662]

those seats must be very uncomfortable

[@dontgetaboveyourreason]

Unions should be barred from giving political donations.

[@palaceofwisdom9448]

I'm a union member and I agree. I'm sick of my mandatory dues being spent to campaign for people who I would never vote for, and worse yet our union newsletter even includes large ads for specific politicians. I'm paying the union to tell me how to vote, which is absurd.

[@ismaelmori18]

I also as a union member agree to this. Along with super pacs.

[@drsch]

Why?

[@drew8642]

Don't get above your reason Same goes for Big Corps!

[@crash299]

@@palaceofwisdom9448 there was a supreme court ruling on this. You dont have to pay for the unions politics. Look it up.

[@arcad1an292]

If you are rare jobs are plenty, if you are plenty, jobs are rare.

[@jebremocampo9194]

The spear Chicago economics: Milton Friedman as tip, Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell as the wing side

[@scawarren]

Yes especially the "public" unions.

[@dennisjcny]

The worker and the consumer are the same person. There, that's your answer.

[@mrcookie97]

Are these guys actually disagreeing but keeping their composure regardless?

[@Slurrps]

He mentions special privilages given to unions. While I agree with Dr. Friedman, does anyone know of any instance I could point to of that happening when in a debate?

[@davidr1620]

It’s weird when people confuse voluntary unions to forced unionization. That’s the entire issue.

[@Soundatron]

How? What did he nationalize?

[@alcredeur]

Unions are fine as long as membership is voluntary and they're private sector.

[@ScotisticDad]

You don't want to work in a union work place you are free to work anywhere else.

[@SeatBill]

@@ScotisticDad Not in public sector jobs, you don't! If you're a nurse, and you want to work at a state-run hospital...you HAVE to join a union! NO CHOICE! Why should people's choices be restricted by unions? Unions only function close to their original intent - protect the interests of the worker - when it's a PRIVATE SECTOR union. PUBLIC SECTOR unions are essentially unconstitutional...and un-American.

[@buewave26]

it is much much to ware to see such intelligent black people. if you just go by what you see in the world every day while you just walk around or something you could easily think that there is no hope for black people when you see them with there pants below their knees and all the times you see a black women loose her temper in wal-mart represent . but how refreshing to see those who take advantage of the education were all able to get in this country. YES THIS WAS WRITTEN BY A WHITE MAN

[@tomthefunky]

@1963danno: You're not looking at the big picture. Your union is negotiating with management for that high salary you want. What happens if you get that great salary? Your company will then find it harder to compete with other homebuilders because the consumer will probably decide your company is too expensive. You'll price yourselves out of the market and then you're out of a job. Happened to the steel and auto industry to name just a few.

[@dekubaner]

ive been in contact with union workers twice. at this restaurant being built in minnesota, workers would stop doing work at least three times a day for long periods. i dont know exactly how long but it had to be longer than 30 minutes. and no matter what happened around, they would not move a finger during those breaks. more recent at a chemical plant in virginia the operators would not do absolutely anything even if it was obvious that what you asked them to do was vital to save someone from having an terrible accident simply because it was not in his contract to do. im talking about something as simple as removing any piece of metal from the floor ( not exactly that ) that might dangerous. quite sad actually!

[@dougoverhoff7568]

Labor unions once served a distinct and necessary purpose. But, once they got a stranglehold on an industry they became the equivalent of a monopoly. All work done in their particular industry came under the control of that union, making it a monopolistic enterprise. Thus, the Union's authoritative control enabling it to cease all work, if they so desired. Too much power in the hands of a single entity.

[@mattimus8250]

Vital Signs I’m also in a union shop. My experience with the union is pretty common around here. The contractors are provided with a whole new set of union electricians. We’re called B rate, even though the union doesn’t like the second rate implications of the term B rate. Basically if your family isn’t in or you don’t meet the requirements of the affirmative action laws you get to be a second rate electrician. No pension , different health package and my favorite is “the storefront clause” in the contract. That means if you aren’t A rate then you can’t go on any jobs more technical than a residential site or small commercial store front. This leaves all of the technical jobs like grocery store refrigeration or industrial motor control for the A rate people. Making on the job training a little bit difficult. Online courses were your supposed to teach yourself something you don’t know to begin with are your only option. Then when you fail an advancement test they tell you stupid things to make you feel better. Somehow “If it makes you feel any better I don’t know many Journeymen that could pass that test” didn’t make me feel any better. My experience as an IBEW member isn’t the best, But when you consider the amount of time I worked non union is equal to the time I’ve been in the union the compensation is not equal. Even with the BullShit involved the union got me a paycheck where I could actually afford to start a family. I’ve got second rate health benefits but I don’t have to pay anything close to $200 a week for them. The unions serve a purpose but they don’t protect everyone.

[@harry-tuttle]

Friedman sums it up well that labor unions have been granted special privileges that are not available to the common man.

[@DynamicUnreality]

@panama52009 I believe this recording is part of the rebuttal portion of an episode of the PBS series "Free to Choose", which you can find in its entirety on youtube if you are interested. More specifically, I believe it is this episode kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZOZkqSfqbmaha8

[@SuperGuitarman69]

@elharbingero Amen. The irony of this is, Milton was proven right. Steel workers unionized even got legislation passed that forced tariffs on foreign steel companies to quell competition. Now, this is a lesson to anyone in a union, is to watch this debate in 1980 and look at the results of what we have today. Where is the steel worker now? If they would have competed and met market labor equilibrium ie.. correct wages and allowed their companies to compete? They may still have their jobs

[@SharathCK]

Did you not hear him say at the end that people should be free to organize?

[@tomthefunky]

@JoshMan522 A Heritage.org study found 70% of Americans say their company has a strong sense of loyalty towards them. 82% say they are satisfied with their job security. If what you are saying is true, there would be a rise in unionization, not the drastic decline in membership I pointed out. Outsourcing and shipping off overseas is a result of excessive government regulation and taxation which forces business to move elsewhere. Cut corporate taxes and they will stay here.

[@carrion_man3700]

We should have the right to unionize. I'm not a fan, but most of the time, when a company's workforce organizes it's because they deserve it. In other words, we as people have the right to make bad decisions. And sometimes companies bring it on themselves.

[@scopeless22]

Its not with unions themselves that are the problem, its special privileges given to them by government. In the private sector, union membership ebbs and flows depending on the conditions of the market. It has been going down this past decade. But in the public sector, where privileges are bought not determined through need, the unions have enormous power that is difficult to take away. Thats why we have such high spending on education, but so little results out of it.

[@coryburns1905]

I am not a fan of of labor unions my dad was a member of a union at one time he was out of work for a year because of a strike they were on

[@jhonfamo8412]

Collective bargaining is good

[@SeatBill]

Sure...as long as its' COMPLETELY voluntary, and APOLITICAL. I should have the right NOT to join ANY union for ANY reason; and I should also have the right to REFUSE to pay dues that go to causes and political groups I personally DON'T agree with, or support! If I don't have those rights....then that union is my ENEMY.

[@SI-vo3fb]

One of the MAJOR reasons people unionized was for worker safety and fair wages, to fight exploitation.. the funny thing is, yes it did it’s intended job for the most part, yet exploitation was introduced in other ways, greed, power, influence, etc... I belong to a union, although I agree they are not as strong as once were, it still provides me some sort of protection from the company I work for.. I have a contract the company has to abide to, if they stray from this I’m afforded the opportunity to grieve it. If I have a legit argument it will get overturned.. a union is only as good as its leaders.. I’m not ignorant to the fact that there is good things and bad things associated to unions but would say the good out ways the bad..

[@hhn1000]

Unions have actually diminished by now (2012).

[@margaretswartz3348]

How do you all feel about Tenure in public schools and public higher education?

[@margaretswartz3348]

I'm so glad you brought that up. I've been thinking about it over the past few years and have been leaning against it. I really don't think there's anyone I know that I could share this with. Thanks...

[@TheManInTheMasks]

What people don't realize is that for a free society to exist genuinely free (at least from harm from others), you must have laws be logical and rule based (meaning that they are not based on results in any way whatsoever). Fair rules = opportunity; fair results = despotism (and not fair results). If the rules of this country allowed one person to acquire 99% of all the wealth of the country, that person in no way should be forced to give any back if the rules were followed...

[@GregoryTheGr8ster]

I might have some of my facts and details incorrect, so check out Charles Baird's articles for more info.