How to use "Sag" controls on pedal power supplies

[@WhiteWolf--]

Great to have you back Brian, you are a valuable resource for a lot of people. Cheers

[@wharman1]

This is a great demonstration of what a dying pedal starving for more power sounds like. I have inadvertently unplugged a pedal that has an old battery in it and wondered what happened. This is helpful in that respect. I currently have my OCD and Dark Matter sharing a spot on my Pedal Power 2 Plus so I can have more pedals on my board. I can't do this wiith some of my pedals because they require full draw to work. I really like the fact Wampler has a safety feature that will keep the show going if there is a power issue. Bravo! -Big Papa

[@HanlonRazor]

When the first note of that fuzz hit, my soul stirred.

[@jeandanieldupuis]

what an amazing sound

[@morbidrockgod]

That Pantheon overdrive sounded really good indeed!

[@jeandanieldupuis]

insane

[@russellpanter4169]

I don't want to alarm you, but it looks like a stormtrooper is trying to get the drop on you. Check behind the Fender amp. We're concerned about your safety.

[@bryantwalley]

But everyone knows Stormtroopers can't shoot straight. Some of the pedals on the walls may be in danger though..

[@Pudge4400]

I think he's hiding back there because he's embarrassed about his marksmanship inadequacies....

[@RetiredRobot]

I was just testing the SAG feature on my Zvex Box of Rock last night, but I didn’t realize you could control the voltage with the front knob; Your video couldn’t have come at a better time. Thanks Brian! And Happy New Year

[@jbert7289]

It’s good to see you back.

[@Briansgate]

Awesome, I have that power supply, and this was a great demo for me. Glad to see you back, Brian!

[@jeandanieldupuis]

same

[@thedddemon]

The Tube Screamer sounded really nice with a bit of sag!

[@ChrisD_GTR]

hey brian! just wanted to let you know [if you have the time to see the comments] that you influenced my decision to buy my first telecaster! its a 2019 Squire Classic Vibe 50's tele. butterscotch w/ black guard! ive had it for a month now and ive swapped out the 8 screw guard for a 5 screw black guard and ive added wilkinson compensated brass saddles. i never knew id like a tele this much, its fantastic! i know you dont really talk about your tele all that much, but i figured if youre playing a tele all the time that they must be really good. so im glad i picked one up! and thank you for all the great vids you do!

[@Gatecreeper69]

Amazing video, I have this power supply and can't thank you enough for the in depth information about this feature. Hats off my man!

[@passionplayer7]

The draw from using a battery I find is different as well, where the SAG gives a consistent lower voltage. Like the battery gives more and less current based on how hard you play(dynamics, what a concept!). I've noticed this in pedals that were designed for battery, like old fuzz circuits and designers that love battery. Most if not all Wampler pedals have acted and sounded "better" to me with a consistent voltage, are probably designed this way. Great Vid Brian!

[@kimhansen6384]

The SAG seems just to be a variable voltage regulation. The battery is a whole other thing. That is because a battery has an internal resistance/impedance which is very low on new types of batteries, less than 1 ohm. About 1-2 ohms for Alkaline, 16 - 18 ohms for Lithium and 35 ohms for zinc Carbon, so Eric Johnsson is not insane when he says he can hear a difference according to wich battery type he uses in his Fuzz Faces. I am not sure if it is possible to emulate the effect, just by putting a resistor in series with the PSU, but it could be a posibillity.

[@passionplayer7]

Kim Hansen If they can actually replicate what a battery does with analog pedals, it will be a fantastic day for us tone junkies ;)

[@kimhansen6384]

@@passionplayer7 Yes. it is all about how ´willing´ the battery is, to supply power. People could try to put a resistor in series with the power cable, and see how much that gives. There is a risk/chance that it is freq. dependend, but that is were my knowledge ends. People who know much about batteries would probably be able to comment on that.

[@loulasher]

@@kimhansen6384 How willing a battery is might be one of the things that made people have their favorite battery type back when there were a number of different 9v battery manufacturers readily available. My electronics knowledge is really poor. Your resistor idea interests me, but I'm wondering it a capacitor would aid in the responsiveness to dynamics.

[@InTheSh8]

But how long does a battery last in such a circuit where a hard hit on the strings actually brings down the voltage from 9V to 7V or so? A reliable and predictable effect would then only take place when the battery is new. And it would maybe also differ from battery brand to brand (composition). Is that really wanted by the designers?

[@orryfishburne5326]

I’m loving your new approach to your videos

[@michellowe8627]

Happy New Year & welcome back, Brian! I could never figure out why you would want to deliberately voltage-starve a pedal. Your video makes perfect sense. Thanks and I’m looking forward to part deux.

[@stephenwares8317]

Just 2 days ago I was looking for videos to understand this SAG feature as I set up my pedal board - awesome video, super helpful, great timing!!

[@liamtahaney713]

I just got my first pedal of yours...the mini ego. I love it. Thank you

[@rickc2102]

Having blend on a compressor is just the best, innit?

[@TheElrondo]

Happy new year Brian! And congratulations on 100.000 subscribers. I'm happy you are back on the show 😊

[@rickc2102]

Yeah, seeing him up in my feed made the day a little more interesting.

[@braddietzmusic2429]

I’m not saying I know everything about everything Guitar-related. Surely I don’t. But... voltage sag is something I know absolutely nothing about, nor have I seen anyone get into. Thanks for the video. It’s a very interesting topic. Thanks!

[@BandHouseStudios]

Brian, great playing and great video, this video is a fantastic demonstration of the SAG feature and how it affects the sound of different pedals.

[@Tomsdrawings]

That’s very informative and educating, Brian. Thank you and all the best for 2020!

[@STETTRACE]

Great to have you back my friend

[@TSSVillains]

Pelitar sounds awesome

[@pelicannoiseworks3212]

TSSVillains thanks!

[@TyRobertsmedia]

Excellent illustration! Thanks

[@jddelarosa]

So it's basically "votalge starving". It makes total sense now. Thank you for explaining this!

[@robcerasuolo9207]

There's another kind of "sag" that refers to a certain quality of tone with certain distortions. I'm still trying to fully understand how it works, as well as to recognize it when I hear it without being told that it's there; but what I think I understand is that it causes a voltage drop in the distortion stage by way of feeding signal back through that part of the circuit (aka negative feedback?), usually to the clipping IC if I'm not mistaken. The two types of "sag" work off voltage dropping, but one is induced by starving the power input (this video), and the other is induced in the circuit. I could be wrong, so you may wish to investigate this for yourself. But imagine an "auto-sag" that turns that starve knob as the clipping increases--that's what I think the other "sag" does. And if not, maybe I just gave someone a cool pedal feature idea? 😜

[@evan4168]

Great Video! Glad to see you back in the game!

[@tshelton8620]

Great Video. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge. As a newer guitar player, I get a ton of inspiration and knowledge from your videos. I am just now getting a bit more into pedals and power supplies, so this was perfectly timed.

[@bofa83]

I have that power supply and had no idea what sag meant. Thanks!

[@PooNinja]

8:02 or to slap your tech for not checking the batts 👍🏽 Low power into high gain = that plasma sound 😂 on the right pedal anyhoo Can’t wait for the deep dive into the force or amperage as it were 🤘🏽

[@stevenmgyori3826]

That's a Great analogy, I've not considered this!! Thanks for sharing brother! Be Well Brian!

[@_RLP]

Welcome back, Brian! Great episode, man. I have that exact power supply and my bd2 is on the sag pot with just a little bit less voltage than usual. I dig the clipping I get... Cheers

[@andrewbingham3449]

Great video! For those mentioning how carbon batteries have a certain voltage drop that adds to the character of the sag, it is interesting to note that a company called Gig Rig offers a “virtual battery” that is supposed to do just that. It seems to take the sag feature on the voodoo supply and go one step further to emulating the battery feel. I can’t say I’ve tested it, but it definitely piques my interest for using with some of my fuzzes.

[@kosmicwizard]

Very useful! Welcome back and thank you, Brian!

[@SuperJiggawhat]

Happy Newyear, Brian!

[@DragonofLimerick]

Looking forward to the next video since I daisy chain I don't use batteries at all nor care for the sound of a dying battery, but great informative video though for the many out there that do love that!

[@suburbanindie]

The real fun is putting this on modulation pedals like flange, phaser, even tremolo. I'm surprised you didn't try anything except distortion pedals.

[@kangaroofoot]

Where can I see this?

[@johnroberts838]

Excellent Video, Thank you 👍👍👍. I have the Pedal Power 2, The Sag feature is Brilliant for Fuzz Pedals. Take care ♥️👍 Melbourne, Australia.

[@ekirenrut]

Thanks dude! I have a pedal power 2+ and have never used the sag. Curious to explore now!

[@paulcowart3174]

Good stuff 👍Thanks Brian Happy New year

[@aarondaniels629]

you need to make a wampler expression pedal that switches from 9v in the toe position and 4.5v (or less) in the heel position...so connect a power supply to the Wampler Sag Machine...run a power cable from the sag machine to the pedal...so we can test this out on pedals easily AND do fun stuff live!

[@lukeweiler1192]

Never knew about the sag thanks for the video

[@cafestudiosinc.1702]

Cool, that new pedal looks amazing.

[@igetmycalcium]

Just got a Pantheon. Awesome pedal!!! My board has quickly become an all Wampler OD board. Not sure why I’d need so many drives but I’ve got Ego, Paisley, Euphoria, Pantheon, Tumnus Deluxe, along with a tuner and some delay and reverb/ trem. No room for any modulation or anything but I can’t bring myself to take any of those drives off my board!

[@wampler_pedals]

Thanks so much! I’m glad you like them 😊

[@ProducerRyan]

Loving your channel!

[@metalzen3480]

Very helpful demonstration! I've heard some folks prefer to battery power certain pedals, like the TS9, due to better "tone". The sag control seems like a cool feature for those seeking just a little bit more tweaking options. Even though fairly subtle with a tube screamer I suppose other factors in the signal chain and the amp used could really make a bit more differnce in dialing in your "perfect" tone. Oh, that Pantheon OD pedal sounded great btw!

[@Aaron-zh4kj]

the OCD with sag gives me Dead Kennedy's vibes. I dig it.

[@austinmidwest7062]

i have the voodoo 2 plus, and never took the time to mess with the sag feature. i'll have to revisit it

[@giackbazz]

I didn't know about this! Thank you so much! That's a new secret weapon 😁

[@markhammer643]

Could have sworn I posted this earlier, but I guess I accidentally hit "cancel". In any event, Happy New Year Brian to you and the family and staff. Hope 2020 treats you well. I will maintain to my dying day that most "sag" controls do NOT emulate the famous "dying battery". Carbon-zinc batteries on their last legs exhibit dynamic characteristics which are largely unlike what the typical sag control does. In particular, they have the trait that, as they age and the voltage drops, they can provide brief bursts of enough current to make a fuzz respond to pick attack, but they have to quickly sit down and catch their breath immediately after. The audible result is a kind of compression. A stable robust power supply, turned down from 9VDC to 8V or 7V is not going to exhibit those dynamic characteristics. The available current will NOT correspond to pick attack. Now, that is not to say that dropping the supply voltage achieves nothing that is musically useful or tonally desirable. But it isn't a true emulation of what happens when a fuzz is powered by a 9V carbon-zinc battery that has reached its pensionable age. Aging alkaline batteries also don't mimic what a carbon-zinc battery does on its last legs, because of the chemical composition and internal construction differences between them. Take a dead one of each apart and you'll see major differences. Alkalines will consist of 6 sub-penlight metal-covered cells that are spot-welded end to end. Carbon-zinc will consist of 6 ugly black flat slugs, stacked atop each other. They develop internal resistances differently At some point, I fully expect dying batteries to be adequately and faithfully modelled, whether digitally or by a power-supply circuit. But that time appears to not be here yet. Soon, I imagine, but not yet. Incidentally, good call mentioning that reduced supply voltage also impacts on op-amp headroom. I think there are many drive pedals whose tone arises from op-amps asked to provide more gain than the supply voltage allows, in addition to whatever diodes are doing. They become de facto ":double clippers" even though the schematic may not indicate so.

[@kimhansen6384]

See my response to that further up.

[@markhammer643]

@@kimhansen6384 Can't seem to find it. Was it a reply to someone else's comment?

[@kimhansen6384]

@@markhammer643 Sorry I responded to a wrong comment.

[@markhammer643]

@@kimhansen6384 No worries. I'm all for being less confused, and you achieved that. :-)

[@paulwilliams1045]

Great video. Very helpful.

[@FloridaManMatty]

I’ve always wondered if there was a “best” way to use the sag switch...

[@murphshall]

Man! That guy has a HUGE pedal collection! 😁

[@joseislanio8910]

murphshall have you ever seen Josh's, from JHS?

[@murphshall]

@@joseislanio8910 I have.. Impressive indeed :) Seymour Duncan also has one of the finest pickup collections I've ever seen as well ;)

[@sergeyz5053]

Once I bought 808 tubescreamer with a battery installed and was pleased with its mellow vintage overdrive. Then the battery died, so I installed a new one and... what a gain monster! 😂

[@marcialperezcr]

Thanks for the great information, what about the L6?

[@hughellisATL]

super helpful!

[@wildfeuer]

Cool vid as always!!!!

[@fredlarosa6793]

Did this with my Black Russian EHX Big Muff. Normally it's smooth and almost cello or violin- esque, but I found a sweet spot where it gets a bit crunchy, which is nice. I don't know if i'm gonna leave it that way, but, it's nice to have the option. related Q: Big Muff -> overdrive pedal -> amp, or overdrive -> Big Muff -> amp? overdrive = Wampler Plexi Drive (which is awesome, btw!)

[@TheloniousBosch]

Right on! Brian Wampler and sagging fuzz!

[@PearlJamaholic]

I like using the SAG feature with a wah, it seems to take out the higher end of the wah and warm it up a bit.

[@pelicannoiseworks3212]

Ahh that was fun! Thanks buddy

[@NickGranville]

Thanks for this. It’s useful to hear these examples. I have a tube screamer which will run at 9v or 18v. Apparently there is more headroom at 18v. Do you think that’s something worthwhile doing? I’m going to have to buy a new power supply to make it happen; so checking if it’s something one can actually hear?? Thanks

[@darkstargear]

Awesome, finally found out why a dead battery kills some pedals. Somehow overlooked the relay.

[@CrazedFandango]

I've always considered this feature something you use with a fuzz; I think this confirms my thoughts. Good to see you back.

[@DAVIDDAMIENR]

THANK YOU !!!!!

[@peyotepete4903]

Thank you!

[@petew.1418]

I used to have a EHX Electric Mistress, and when the battery was dying, it got really funky.

[@christianbriere3572]

Thanks, well explained,. Power supply use and types is a big subject. others topics is : PSA Boss for certain old pedals?, Why isolated power supply is better? "Y" cables to increases current usage?, etc...I have always tought that the SAG is mostly good for the fuzzface type of circuit as they sound better with low voltages batteries. but not shure.

[@mmmichelin1]

Awesome video.

[@loulasher]

I never experimented with the sag feature, but I did find my Maxon Af-9 dynamic filter, which relies on pick attack, was kinda harsher when I ran it off a power supply compared to running it on a battery. It "required" a bit of sag for my tastes, but as @Barry Provost (I don't think the "at" works in this way, but I don't know how to make it work without being a direct reply), it is still different than with a battery.

[@davidmbas]

And the Wampler man is back!!!! Great Video!!!

[@scooter5005]

Flub... is now in my vocab!

[@pedroriojas]

Excelent demonstration Brian. Does this voltage variation could damage components in some pedals??? I know the amount of voltage and current used in pedals is no too big but caps and resistors are good enough to support it, I mean when there are missing quality components?

[@dls3939]

Finally someone else using a Pelitaur, was beginning to think that I was the only one, yeah it sounds great with sag on. I use it on my DS1 too. Dropping down to 6 volts really does something cool.

[@paperstr33tdanny]

Awesome video Brian, is there some pedals that are better in 18v as opposed to 9? Thank you

[@avgjoegat8126]

Welcome back

[@famitory]

on a lot of these power supplies "sag" is kinda the wrong term. i usually hear sag to mean that a load is lowering the supply voltage due to high current draw, making it a dynamic thing, as opposed to simply providing a lower constant supply voltage, which i'd call 'starve'

[@famitory]

hey, there's a concept for a wierd pedal! a dynamic power supply that monitors current draw and voltage and can simulate different kinds of internal resistance curves, including non-linear behavior and negative resistance stuff

[@FACTBOT_5000]

I completely agree. I was going to comment the same thing. 👍🏻

[@RobFlaxMusic]

Damn, that Pelitaur!

[@robcerasuolo9207]

Great video! Could that sagged OCD be combined with a treble booster (I was thinking before the OCD) to get a usable sound? I'd also like to hear the sagged OCD before and after fuzz pedals, especially a Muff type, cuz of all the lower-end emphasis. I don't have any of these pedals (except the fuzz), so I figured I'd pass the ideas on to you and others to play with. Thanks for continuing with your highly educational videos. I look forward to each of them.

[@druwk]

Fuzz circuits can get really fun on carbon battery...but the batteries burn out quick. Would have loved to have seen a Wah pedal. The tone changes a bit?

[@CNCTEMATIC]

Hey Brian, thanks, this was cool! It would be interesting to learn about increased voltage too. (or did you already do that..?)

[@sazarod]

Cool how the fuzz takes on a gated quality at lower voltage! Are you going to try any delay effects?

[@cjstibitz2130]

What do you think of virtual batteries? I was on a forum and they were talking about using dying carbon zinc batteries gives the best tone for fuzz pedals. But there was some people pushing this gig rig virtual battery that can somehow be used in combination with your power supply. Another member said back, how is this virtual battery any different then the sag feature on my pedal power +. He gave this complicated answer. "The Voodoo Labs sag feature is simply a way of dropping the voltage below 9v. The Virtual Battery can do this too (there is a little dial that lets you set the voltage you want). The Virtual Battery, however, is also designed to behave like an old carbon battery, as opposed to simply lowering the voltage. Old carbon batteries had very high internal resistance (around 35 ohms, compared to 0.1 ohms for an alkaline battery, and virtually nothing for a DC power supply). Voltage drops as you draw current through a resistor, and so this has the effect of dropping the voltage more as more current is drawn (such as at transient peaks, for example when a string is first picked). Once the current draw diminishes, say as the note decays, the voltage recovers and headroom increases. It's quite similar to the effect a tube rectifier has on a cranked power amp. The Virtual Battery mimics this high internal resistance of old carbon batteries. Whilst the sag feature on the Voodoo Labs PSU will give you a fixed lower voltage, the Virtual Battery will supply a dynamic voltage that is dependent on the current being drawn through it. This is much more in-keeping with the behaviour of an old carbon battery. It's a subtle difference, but it is noticeable. Whether it sounds 'better' is totally subjective. Lots of guys are perfectly happy running fuzzes on DC power. The Virtual Battery isn't particularly expensive, so it's worth a shot if you want to hear how your pedal sounds on battery power without the inconvenience of having to remember to change the battery"

[@filipehaider]

Nice video. The outputs L6, are only for Line 6 pedals or can I put pedals type MXR, Boss and others?

[@daveryan2148]

I always found that if a pedal was originally designed to be operated from battery, it's eligible for sagging. Batteries don't really hold that 9v threshold that much so cutting the voltage a little simulates the average voltage it was really run at and probably designed for.

[@erikvincent5846]

Glad to see you back. Is that soft click using a microcontroller with ADC and a voltage divider to sample, and if it doesn't see what is doesn't like, blink an LED on a GPIO or instead trip a relay with another GPIO? Does it do any grounding switching when tripping that relay to avoid pop? Sorry, I am a bit of a microcontroller nerd.

[@wampler_pedals]

Those answers are what we charge consulting fees for ;)

[@erikvincent5846]

@@wampler_pedals well played, good sir!

[@cgavin1]

This is really interesting. I can absolutely live without it. :)

[@Guitar9235]

I do this trick with the xotic BB pre-amp. I get a suedo fuzz sound when EQ and gain is pushed.

[@lightwarriors7778]

So I have a pigtronix echolution phi that uses 15v psu and have a voodoo labs mondo psu and wondering if I can use a 12v section and use a voltage splitter type cord and then could dial the sag section down to where it hit 15v so I could use it with the mondo or if I used a 9v and then another from the sag section using 6v instead of having to have a power strip using the psu it the echolution phi came with. Appreciate the video, thanks so much! Very cool to see the effects of voltage drop. I was worried any variance would mess it up

[@lightwarriors7778]

*voltage doubler cable that is

[@bouzoukiman5000]

Oh, they sound so dir-tey! Haven't tried it yet on my pp2+ yet! Lot's of quiet daisy chains on my power supply!

[@joesatchton212]

What about rechargeable power supplies? What do people think of them? I recently got the Joyo JP-05 and I gotta I've been delighted with it powering a Boss GT-1 anchored fly rig board. Dead quiet pedalboard. Around 4-6 hours continuous use. Any thoughts on this kind of thing? Kinda surprised they haven't caught on more or are the problems that I am just not aware of with this kind of thing?

[@ViviSectia]

I think the main reason they haven't caught on is that they can't handle multiple power hungry pedals. Along with that, there isn't much reason to buy a power supply specifically because it's rechargeable when you could just buy the battery that those power supplies openly admit they use and connect it to any power supply you like. They're usually sold as CCTV camera batteries for around $25 and depending on the power supply, can either be directly plugged in or need the polarity reversed.

[@pjssalud]

Would love to hear the sound of a wah pedal with a dying battery.

[@stfrideswide]

PJ Salud once at a show in the 90’s (thankfully outdoors) I stomped on the crybaby only to annihilate the mix and the band’s hearing with the most horrid deathly screeching wail I’ve ever heard. Everybody stopped playing. One of the backplate screws had come loose and my stomp had caused the post next to the battery to impale the 9v. It’s still stuck there inside the pedal. Different take on a ‘dying’ battery!

[@MiguelBaptista1981]

@@stfrideswide Thats horriffic, but easy to fix if you know where the problem is.

[@Bishka100]

I thought that, as a battery dies its internal resistance increases. The battery and pedal act as the two halves of a resistor divider. As the battery resistance increases so the voltage drops across the pedal. Just dropping the supply voltage is really quite the same thing surely? I was thinking that, if a pedal draws (for arguments sake) 3mA in its quiescent state but 10mA when being driven hard that this would have a big impact in a supply voltage with a high internal resistance, but none of this was mentioned. So am I talking out of the wrong end of my anatomy or is there a reason for dropping the voltage rather than increasing the supply's internal resistance?

[@keithcrouch735]

How about something with a cascading gain OD circuit (not opposing diodes) like, say, a Red LLama or a Blackout Effectors Mantra? That seems like it would react to being starved.

[@sparkyguitar0058]

Wouldn't a bias knob on a Tube Driver be kinda like sag? I got both a new 5 knob and a bias modded older 3 knob Tube Driver and I think that's the sound compared to sag. Also I run the 3 knob at 18v on my board. Don't use the 5 knob at this time now Another item to check out is the Caline P-1 pwr unit. Has big mV outs on it for many uses. I got 13 pedals of it w/ 2 daisy chains and 1 Y splitter for 18v. Might be worth looking up for some boards.

[@robbarstow2074]

Hi Brian - what does the sag function do for wah pedals? I’ve heard some people say wahs are better on batteries than power supply?

[@popitn2nd]

How much current does it give you on each port? Why it does not say

[@andrewbettis4247]

Cool... just wondering if "sag" has the same meaning when referring to amplifiers?

[@elonmush4793]

I think starving voltage is a better term for what's going on here. Sag in a tube amp is when the amp can't handle it when you dig in your strings hard, so it will compress.

[@drew945101]

I'd say no. He got it right ☝️

[@rickc2102]

Voltage soak boxes are equivalent, though they're transmitting power amp signal instead of DC power.

[@fernandoponzetti6350]

hi my friend!! Can i ask you a question?

[@robertoallegro7481]

Would be possible to use batteries like the ones used in smartphones? Something you can charge easily and for many times?

[@lije927]

Had no idea a power supply with this feature existed 😮

[@planetsab]

so the Blues Driver cleans up a bit, sounds a bit P90ish? Am I hearing that right?