Wants a refund on on a wiped out cam that I didn't even make?!

[@Super34racer]

My opinion is the numbers being ground off voids all warranty.

[@powellmachineinc]

💯

[@sharkskinboy]

I agree. Proof of purchase is a basic requirement for a refund in any business. The terms of warranty should clearly state that any mods to the product (including removing numbers) voids warranty. That being said, because of the variables in running in a flat tappet cam, as Daniel described, there should be no refunds at all unless there's clear evidence of manufacturing errors.

[@MrTheHillfolk]

Yeah at that point its hard to say thats even the cam,he coulda dug it out of a scrap engine and is pulling a fast one to get a "freebie".

[@chiefrocka8604]

I’ve got a mate who worked on superstars rally cars and he will buy parts and fit the nackered ones In the box and send it back , then the next idiot who buys it really has a problem … that’s how you do it so beware

[@chiefrocka8604]

Oh and he tells me don’t bring him parts that ave been opened 😂

[@dustinloudermilk4349]

Tell them to pound sand.... I have watched several of your videos...from what I see your work is 2nd to none...keep up the great work and don't let the small number of dishonest people deter you..

[@022367ASM]

The wear on that distributor gear speaks for itself. Any and ALL of your products going out of your shop should be marked specifically with an identifier so you know it came from your shop. Period.

[@nellermann]

Don't you have some kind of micro code or makers mark you can print with laser on the non wear areas? You can't trust anyone today!

[@JJayzX]

@@nellermann there's even simpler etchers which I believe is a slightly wet acidic paper and a die with mark and some electricity.

[@danhillman4523]

No, that means nothing.

[@johnqpublic4012]

@@danhillman4523 What the fuck are you talking about? Short of a shop or individual putting in the effort to attempt to replicate an identifier, it's a reasonable solution. An etched logo and/or unique identifier should be on each of the products that ship out this guy's door to prevent exactly this type of "I'm 99% sure we didn't make this part." guessing game. Unless you're referring to the gear wear, in which case I'd take this guy's expertise over whatever you believe yours to be, any day.

[@badgermetal]

Mark it so small you would need a microscope to check it and don't let anyone know exactly how to replicate it or what to look for.

[@araparts]

People do this without blinking an eye. They talk about it like it’s coupon cutting or something. We deal with this on a regular basis. Customer buys our part, initiates a return for a refund. We end up receiving a cheaper one of subpar quality. They really turn a blind eye to the fact that it’s friendly fraud. We always fight these customers to the maximum. Thank you for putting this out there.

[@FluffPuffkotj]

Those are not customers. They are thieves.

[@funnyfarm5555]

Exactly why Amazon changed its return policy. Too many people abusing the system. I heard awhile back about high schoolers buying a prom dress, wearing it to the prom and then returning it to the store(free rental/theft).

[@asdasd-ni8eg]

Friendly fraud hey, i'd just call it fraud. But because its a business people see it different.

[@KodiakWoodchuck]

That's theft.

[@TheQuantumPotato]

I wouldn't even call it friendly fraud, there's no such thing. It's an attempted theft. Such a shame that guys like yourselves have to deal with this while you're trying to make quality products.

[@saab9251]

I’ll never forget working at an autozone while I was in college and a guy brought back a timing chain covered in oil and said it didn’t fix his problem. Told him couldn’t return it. 8 hours later he comes back assuming shift change. Walks in and pretends like he’s never seen me and asks to return it. I pull it out again and it’s still dripping wet with brake cleaner where he sprayed it off in the parking lot. He said he would never shop there again and I thanked him for the assurance.

[@wickedcabinboy]

@@bluedistortions -- "basketball Americans" Cute.

[@xelaju8]

Unfortunately that type of shady customers always come back. :)

[@jamesgeorge4874]

The amount of parts I open that are "new in box" that some cretin took out the new parts, put their old, broke junk in, then carefully glued shut, and returned as not used, is becoming all too common. 30+ years as a tech, seen it more in 5 years, then the previous 26.

[@grivolas2144]

As a parts guy I have to inspect every return. I've had people repaint shocks saying they were new, and the paint was still wet.

[@briang4470]

I was talking to the manager at one of the big local parts suppliers and he told me about how people nowadays will actually buy new spark plugs, change them out and carefully put the used ones in the new boxes and very carefully glue the boxes shut and then return them saying that "we didn't need them/use them" and try to scam the store for their money back, its a sad world we are in today. I have also received several parts from them that were "new" that at some point someone put their used stuff back in the box and returned them, one time was 2 different ignition switches (both obviously original and heavily used)and another on was a window regulator(had old grease and finger smudges all over it.

[@AndrewNeilBaird]

Your right , a guy returned 2 2kg bags of lentils in a glued shut brake rotor box to me and demanded a refund.

[@qrevere5546]

😂😂😂 ​@@grivolas2144

[@jaxturner7288]

It was unheard of back in the day, now it’s rampant. 👍

[@finscreenname]

One Spring I had a woman bring in a set of snow tires to be returned that she apparently used the past winter. I told her there was 2 reasons I could not return them for her. First, they were used and second, we didnt sell snow tires at the Home Depot. She then wanted to see the manager.

[@ChevyConQueso]

Wow. 😂 Bold move, lady. I'm sure it paid off. Somewhat similar, when working auto parts 20 years ago, we had customers who'd lose their top over warranties we couldn't find, and a few of them would go dig up receipts from their glove box or house and come back. They'd just stop talking and walk out pissed when we'd point to the competitor's name or logo on the piece of paper. Don't think I ever got an apology from anyone over it either.

[@countryjoe3551]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@toddanders5218]

Her name is Karen.

[@jonathancharnes7984]

was she blond

[@Zedsdead83]

Course she wanted a manager. The balls on some people and the stupidity is unreal

[@LowLevelNC]

Grinding off the numbers tells us all we need to know. POUND SAND, THEN KICK ROCKS!

[@trentdawg2832]

Shoot gravel and travel

[@tdw5933]

Screw em and feed em beans

[@sicks6six]

now now boys, don't get your nickers in a twist,

[@drgunnwilliams8239]

Very politely tell them to combine sex and travel!

[@tdw5933]

@@drgunnwilliams8239 the white horse they rode in on.

[@ericwiltz6584]

I have little knowledge of engine building so I can't comment on the technical aspects of this subject. With that said, there is nothing like seeing a man that is a strait shooter and tells it like it is. What I really like is he approaches each and every issues in an educational manner to us. When he passes judgement and ALWAYS based on fact he does it in such a polite manner. My vote: "pound sand!" Thank you for just being real!!!!

[@hollywoodtshirts159]

Suggestion: To help verify your work, get a laser engraving machine and have a expert create a unique and difficult to duplicate logo and engrave all your work with the logo and the date the work was done. You can even add a serial number to each piece and load the serial numbers into a spreadsheet with customers info. Hope this helps avoid you getting ripped off.

[@powellmachineinc]

It was

[@johncoops6897]

​@@powellmachineinc- it was *WHAT* ??? Why dismiss the numerous suggestions being made to you about protecting yourself against some "alleged problem" that wasted time making a video to moan about?

[@brian_sipe]

@@johncoops6897 What he's been saying to all the people with the same suggestion, is that he laser engraves all the cams he sells, and this one had the front ground off to hide what it was.

[@johncoops6897]

@@brian_sipe - well, he DID NOT say that in the video. He rants for ages, yet only mentions paint dots that other suppliers apply. There is absolutely no reason for this video if the cam that was returned wasn't the cam he supplied. So, based on this video, I call BS on his claimed "laser marking". He never shows it, he never mentions it, so it's most likely he's just lying to counter the obvious suggestions that viewers are making in comments here.

[@brian_sipe]

@@johncoops6897 buddy, this guy has a whole website with his products on it, and damned near all of them are laser etched. C'mon dude.

[@ramcharger-j2f]

Fifty years ago long before I had ever heard of break in oil and had no info on how to break in a cam, I just coated them with STP used a drill to bring up the oil pressure for a while. When I started it I ran them at about 2500 rpm for 15 to 20 minutes and never lost a cam that I remember. Enjoyed the video!

[@tetedur377]

Yup, that's the way we did it back then.

[@keysautorepair6038]

This should tell you everything you need to know think about it.

[@rcdogmanduh4440]

STP on an engine rebuild ! Yep, those were the 70's lol !

[@gregk.6723]

@@rcdogmanduh4440 STP and match heads.

[@butchking154]

u could put a used cam in your eng back in the day fire it up and never have a problem

[@surferdude4487]

I'm pretty sure that this POS is the cam they replaced. Your amazing product is working just fine in the engine in which it was installed.

[@powellmachineinc]

Tyvm!

[@eb972]

Them sneaky camshaft fairies.

[@Survival427FE]

Absolutely correct on the source info. I worked at Federal-Mogul for a long while and we owned Camshaft Machine for a bit. For a short time after the acquisition of CMC I was the sales contact for bulk and private label customers. CWC Textron cast all of the cores and flame hardened them over gas jets on rollers. At that point the cores had no idea what name was gonna end up "on the box". Camshaft machine, Engine Power Components, or Weyburn-Bartell (closed up decades ago now) did semifinished grinds - rough lobes, journals, distributor gears, and end faces and drilling/tapping operations. On customer request they would also finish grind and even package. The various paint dabs and stripes are how EPC or CMC identifies a semi-finished or finished camshaft. They are inventoried in bulk and the customer part numbers are only stamped on them when inventory is pulled for shipping and/or packaging. Somewhere I still have a book with the CMC paint marking to part number interchange.

[@JeffreyEllis41]

Not only are you thorough in your explanation, but you never lost your nerve one second in this video. You have integrity.

[@powellmachineinc]

Ty

[@bettyro1959]

You seem like an honest man that goes above and beyond what you need too, and also takes pride in your work and cares about your customers. I would tell people like this to go pound sand!

[@iceman9678]

Consider putting a discrete machine mark(s) on your camshafts before they leave your shop. Make note of this "customer's" information. There are plenty of good customers out there and you don't need to waste time on bad ones. You can't given them their money back. You didn't get it for that item.

[@2packs4sure]

That's exactly what I was thinking,, some kind of hidden discreet only seen under magnification identifying mark...

[@radioactivelight]

I agree

[@gkindustrialmachine1]

Laser engraver ... doesn't need to be hidden, A image or shop trade mark. End of story .....not a paint mark, that's stupid

[@nicholassmerk]

@@gkindustrialmachine1 an encoded serial number (QR code?) that matches a decoded number and date on the invoice.

[@gkindustrialmachine1]

@@nicholassmerk oh yes perfect

[@lklekas]

I missed the part that they had ground the back of the journal.Who does that?And then tell you there was no paint markings,he's calling you a liar!Keep track of that guy so he can't buy anything else.

[@richardhummel8882]

I like this episode. Very good discussion on modern Flat Tappet Cams. Years ago hardly ever had failure. Today it’s common!

[@893R6-w8t]

Fucked up fuel, fucked up oil.

[@rickallen6378]

@@893R6-w8t No, fucked up cam.

[@893R6-w8t]

@@rickallen6378 yes there are more cheaper cams on the market than ever, but oil and fuel quality are absolutely in the trash these days.

[@hollywoodtshirts159]

Engrave before doing the work so part is balanced true when required. You seem like an honest business man and some customers abuse that. Wish you great success and stay strong.

[@TheMiningNoob]

Upon first sight of the first lifter you tested, it appears to have a serious scraping condition on its body. Indicating to me that the lifter was not rotating, and its bore is either dirty, not round, or both. Also the wear pattern on that cam does show that it has some lobe taper left, however it has lots of wear on it. I've built engines for over 50 years. I watch your videos and learn from them. I think you do nice work. Carry On !

[@danhillman4523]

Wow, look! Someone knows what they're talking about.

[@saab9251]

That’s the failure mode of all flat tappets that die early. During break in the lifters don’t spin or stop spinning for whatever reason and at that points is a grind off between the lobe and lifter face. The oils suck now. The QC on camshaft lobe taper is horrific from most grinders these days, and the lifter QC is so bad that you get more batch’s with a flat lifter than you will a full set of concave ones. I’ve seen cams grind with no taper on the lobes, grinds with the taper in the wrong direction for a particular lobe, soft as a wet noodle core material, etc. Todays flat tappet lifters are even more problematic than the cams. And the big names have become junk. Comp cams is just moving quantity without a care anymore, edelbrock couldn’t grind a concentric valve seat if their life depended on it, and the entire Holley umbrella has figured out if you make the customer service phone wait long enough, returns go down because people give up.

[@Smokey72013]

As a high performance part and a risky one to full with at that I think all flat tappet stuff should be a tail light warranty. Especially a class legal type cam. It's racing. Most racers and down to earth people know what's a warranty issue vs just racing and pushing your crap hard

[@Scummy_shovel]

Well sadly sir. This type of mindset is a thing of the past. I’m a motorcycle mechanic. I had a guy bring me a bone stock 450 motor that had a hole on the piston. Told me he wanted it rebuilt back to stock shape. He had the motor one month brought it back for piston issues . I tore it apart again. piston had a hole . Wasn’t sure what caused it under stock usage. . I warrantied it. Two months later brings it back same issue. I noticed some odd gas burning issues. I’m like dude. wtf you doing to this thing “Oh I’m a hill climb racer and we mix our own fuel. Gives me the recipe of the crap he has been using”. I go back and forth with this guy for a few days and finally just took the engine and throwed it on his porch. I been doing this 20 years and always stand behind my work. It when you take a stock built engine. Run the wrong fuel and race the damn thing at the full extreme. I can’t keep paying for pistons out of pocket. Month later I was talking to another local motorcycle builder and he tried the same crap with him. I even offered to build him a race reliable engine that would last for a season. Those guys rarely get a full season out of engines. Guess it’s just cheaper for him to scam people.

[@ChrisContin]

Special warranty is needed for excessive wear, such as racing or pulling a hard-load. It is not "normal use" which if the intended use of the vehicle is "stock" or "class-use" then the warranty is voided.

[@mikestavisky8009]

That's fair enough, but at break in????

[@Smokey72013]

@@mikestavisky8009 yes at break in. Not everybody makes sure that the lifters turn freely and all other stuff has been handled. Flat tappit cams if they make it past brake in your good

[@denniswalker4351]

This is the difficult part of owning a business. A grievous position to be in for sure. Be the customer honest or dishonest your business will always be spoken of negatively by him. Do what you feel right about in your heart. You are honest and that shows.

[@rtb4008]

Well spoken. As a hobbyist engine builder that has lost a few cams over 30 years ( one last week) , I understand completely about the 2 variables in your control. Sounds like to me flat tappet camshafts and lifters could only be warranted if never installed.

[@leehiller2489]

I work at CWC and the paintmark on the end is from a 3rd party inspector that verifies that the cam meets spec before shipment. There should be an engraved date time on this cam and a casting date with A= Jan, B= Feb, ect. In matched sets these rarely vary by much because of the limited amount of gray iron runs we schedule as ductile iron cams and cranks make up 95-97% of our products.

[@jamesroberts807]

Sand pounder for the win 😅😂😊

[@rudyandtinahildebrand647]

1st time ⏲️

[@mitchm275]

any engine i assemble, whether i supply the parts (which i prefer and always insist on) i stamp two numbers in the cam end, most usually the top of piston, next to other part numbers, machined pad on the block and heads, intake most times i engrave the rods, if there are any hurricane china knocks off floating around, when i rebuilt trans i stamp pan rail, pump and VB. i have had this trick pulled many times. i even stamp replacement alternators, starters, waterpumps, etc for my own warranty work. letters people notice numbers blend in. i have seen so many numbers stamped on gm oil pan rails no one notices another set. my initials are LM so i stamp a 73 upside down 7 next to 3 on its face always clear as day if its my part. i tell them all i can identify my parts and if i see any grinding in areas where manufactures numbers should be, which where i add mine when possible this voids all warranties, mine and the manufactures. then i cover it better by stating any modification, grinding, sanding, or misuse , neglect, abuse, lack of lube and cooling, voids it all. that stops 99% if your ident is missing, thats malicious given where its been ground. NO REFUND! based on what i can see in vid, that cam had way too much spring pressure, good taper, worn lobes, worn dist gear, but also they used a very high pressure pump, that loaded the dist gear, and tho the cam dont appear to be oil straved, very high press pumps not set up right tend to give low volume by opening the relief reducing flow no SBC gen1 needs a pump that big

[@DXT61]

And with all that i bet you still have folks try to claim you are wrong.

[@mitchm275]

@@DXT61 it may happen very infrequently after starting that process. before yes, after not as much, due to the fact i tell the ones i feel most apt to , we all can get a sense of people enough to know, but i tell them i know my parts, i have recorded the numbers on them, the date of purchase, install and sale, and most of my jobs i actually create customer based files for on my pc. requires little time and SSD space, take pictures of each part, showing all stampings, numbers including my own stamps. they go into the customer pc files. any dispute we pull the pics, compare. ends any dispute directly . i am 63 fully ASE certified, been in this biz since the early 80's and have seen every trick customers can play. i had to find a way to get a head of them and this works. once they know you recorded parts and sometimes installation with pics/vids and i show them i had when they make the payment. they have that in the back of their mind from the get go. it seems time restrictive but really its not.

[@johncoops6897]

​@@mitchm275- this guy doesn't sound like he is intelligent enough to have any form of documentation or QA processes like you described.

[@mikestavisky8009]

​@@DXT61and yet, he can prove it's not wrong... with no markings or signature or serialization, it's impossible. Especially after you admit e out of 4 versions come from the same stock as any other companies "non identifiable" cheapo stock.......

[@bills6093]

I would definitely be marking my work, documenting that mark, and absolutely making it clear that there is no warranty if my mark is defaced. Perhaps you can document hardness as well, and if parts come back soft, then they have been overheated and also would not be under any warranty.

[@LPFOMOCO1]

As a Automotive machinist and engine builder for 45 years, i have personally only had maybe 5 flat tappet cams that i personally broke in, (2 in the last year or so) that failed but seeing some people who i thought knew what they were doing, put lifters in tight lifter bores and other nonsense! I currently will not do a flat tappet cam, unless customer knows that if it wears its not warrantied. Todays parts are hard to tell what is good metal anymore. Keep up the good work!

[@powellmachineinc]

@@LPFOMOCO1 ty!

[@MarineGrunt]

As far as any warranty on high performance parts , my understanding has always been : If I install it and it breaks into 10 pieces ....I get to keep all the pieces . That's from my end , as a buyer , not a manufacturer . I buy the part and accept the risk of installing it myself . If I did think I was sold a defective piece , I'd include my receipts and dates of install . Doesnt sound like any of that happened either .

[@rolop847]

Bingo there is no receipt the numbers were filed off so of course this is a scam

[@mikestavisky8009]

Doesn't sound like IT DIDNT HAPPEN either tho, he didn't SAY anything about that...

[@MarineGrunt]

Agree . Seems like Daniel would have said something like " We checked out records and we did sell parts to the guy 6-7 months ago " ..or something like that . That part was left out entirely . @@mikestavisky8009

[@earlywhiskey1847]

I like the laser etching idea something proprietary to you. Keep up the great work!

[@powellmachineinc]

It was, they ground it off

[@MrTonyPiscatelle]

@@powellmachineinc If they ground on the cam it should all be on them, no questions asked !

[@justin423]

@@powellmachineinc My answer to them if the ground off a proprietary mark would be: "Here is my lawyer's number. He is waiting for your call..."

[@Absaalookemensch]

@@powellmachineinc An honest person would not deliberately grind off a laser etched ID mark. They can pound sand. They're trying to rip you off. It's obvious that you are honest by how much this is bothering you. A dishonest person doesn't think twice about their dishonesty, except to figure out how to get away with it.

[@jamessharp9790]

Funny how every time I have to fire a customer -I seem to get about 3 more who are great to deal with.

[@v8packard]

Warranty extends to the point of installation. It is the responsibility of the installer to determine if components being assembled are as required for installation. Beyond that, errors in assembly, break in, or operation are not covered by any warranty. You do your part. If someone goofs up down the line, it is not on you. I can assure you the big boys don't warranty wiped out cams.

[@brianholcomb6499]

I think I’ve read that somewhere for the last 30+ years somewhere 😂😂😂😂!

[@COLLAR01]

I agree, its not like COMP hasnt made millions on flat AF cams lol

[@v8packard]

@@brianholcomb6499 It's at the bottom of all of my invoices 😂

[@DanielJohnson-ec8rk]

So you have the ability to fully inspect a cam to make sure it’s ground to your specs? I highly doubt it. So warranty on a starter or alternator is only until installation? Common sense isn’t so common with some folks

[@v8packard]

@@DanielJohnson-ec8rk Yes, I have a Audie Cam Pro. I also have a hardness tester, and a Tobin Arp lifter radius gauge. Beyond that, it isn't difficult to inspect these components with more conventional tools (v blocks, indicators, degree wheels, etc.) If you are trying to compare price point alternators to precision engine building you can not be helped.

[@davidbaldwin1591]

I'm telling on myself on 2 warranty issues, not related to cars: I'm an average judge of faulty equipment, slow to ask for help to make it good, but I admit to requesting warranty service twice on valuable products, when I was partially wrong. After the warranty was done free of charge, on both of them, I reflected on their opinions, and they did have at least partial merit to their side. I still use both companies, because I trust them: Thanks to Meyco pool covers, and Springfield Armory. I'm so sorry guys. I didn't fully comprehend what you meant. You are awesome!

[@ssaafur]

I continue to marvel at the aspects of engine work that simply boggles my mind. I have no understanding whatsoever as to the specifications and design herein or what it results in but the attention to detail is lovely. Great video.

[@Mike-xt2ot]

You gave a really in depth explanation. Nothing more than you can do. The hardness and taper shows it was caused by factors beyond your control. Good video

[@mikestavisky8009]

You mean the hardness from 40ish to 60ish? And what taper? Sure it's visible, but no specific measurements or dimensions were given.....

[@davebishop8683]

Good content. Agreed - flat tappet stuff is a roll of the dice. If it was a good customer, maybe offer to give them credit for the cam/lifters towards a roller cam/lifters/pushrods/springs. If not a good customer - send them on their way.

[@stevej8478]

You should laser etch an identifing mark on your work or engrave something. Something not really noticable but distinctive enough if there is ever a question

[@powellmachineinc]

It was.....did you miss the part where the back is ground off?

[@stevej8478]

SOrry man, yeah I was interrupted from my brother just for a minute and did not hit pause. Naturally it would have to be at the wrong spot LOL @@powellmachineinc

[@erisgilliard7341]

@@powellmachineinc I have to admit that I missed the that reference and have been unable to find it. Heard and saw the dot and pink slash but still missed the part about the back being ground. Not sure either exactly what is meant by the "cam doctor" so If you get a chance, can you please cover it in the future and I apologize if it was already covered and I just missed it.

[@waylinbuerger2753]

@@powellmachineinc Since the back identification was ground off, that would be a automatic warrantee void right off the bat...Obviously they are trying to pull something shady. Tell them to pound sand.

[@icin4d]

@@powellmachineinc That should automatically disqualify a warranty request. If this area is ground for a specific reason for the build, then may be find another location for your identifier.

[@JR-xw5dk]

I would charge him for your time. We had a company file a claim on two trailer loads of chairs. Some did not even have any stain or any coating at all. The boss agreed to the claim and would take the amount of the claim off invoices. Two months or so later he increased the prices to cover the claim. You do have skills beyond so many. We have so many in this county without any skill and have a degree that is worthless. I am glad I got a degree, without it it would have been impossible to hold a job. Today your type of skills is what we are missing. Thank you for sharing I gain so much knowledge from people like you. It is a good distraction for my chronic pain I have. Take care of your eyes, ears and back. Maybe some of your viewers will give you some floor mats if you need them. Good shoes are priceless. Take care.

[@Clownmeati8]

Seems clear enough to me.. I believe you're the kind of business man that would totally admit fault and make good on anything that was legitimately your error 👍

[@Necrotic99]

I think you have good points to highlight all around and I would think this isn't a repeat customer (since usually repeat don't try to scam you), so usually I would decline a request like this. There are a couple exceptions here, if you think he will damage your reputation more than its worth to "refund" him then do it, but never work with him. If he is a repeat customer, let him know of the issues you identified and that you don't believe it was yours but give him a goodwill credit, then start doing a discrete unique mark going forward and keep an eye out for this customer doing this in the future (consider it the cost of doing business and learning a new lesson).

[@woods-garage]

I caught the comment where one end of the cam was ground, but it wasn’t clear to me at that point that’s where you already mark your cams. With your marks either ground off or it not being yours in the first place, the customer shouldn’t expect a warranty. If you buy some headers and dimple a couple tubes to make them fit, you own them - no returns on modified stuff. That cam was modified from original, and that’s reason enough not to warranty it.

[@helixwash4508]

This is he reason why the previous shop i worked for stamped and marked all the parts for our engines, all before and during the rebuild process. That way, we know for absolute fact what has and hasnt been tampered with. We also would not take any parts that had the manufacturer numbers ground off, those would be sent directly back to the sender.

[@ramabamaboomboom]

The amount of time and energy you put into evaluating a potential issue is amazing.

[@mikestavisky8009]

You mean the 7 minutes?

[@radioactivelight]

I love your no nonsense attitude I like that you live in the real world Common sense

[@powellmachineinc]

Tyvm!

[@KlodFather]

@@powellmachineinc - I think you should modify your warranty to a replacement only and for a limited time. Also your cams should be serial numbered. No numbers, no warranty. They have laser units that will burn the numbers into the cam and they do not come off unless ground off. If they are missing, no warranty. Check into laser etching on metal and BUY THE HOT LASER that will make an indelible mark on the cam. Put your logo and a serial number and start the sequence at some high random number. Cuts down on counterfeiting because guessing the sequence is very hard. Get nerds to help you with that. Like a HEX number 3C1F29AD in base 16. Then count up from there. You can even have the numbers count backwards with a checksum on the end to detect tampering. Good Luck and God bless. KF

[@ronnierobinson1502]

I agree with you...customer trying to pull a fast one

[@powellmachineinc]

💯

[@Anarchy-Is-Liberty]

If that's the case, can you really call that person a "customer"? Sounds more like a criminal!!

[@leolo2222]

Sometimes you have to fire a customer.

[@flinch622]

Could be free range morons - been seeing alot of that lately. Maybe laser etch job numbers on far end/opposite timing chain end? Peace of mind awaits. I think many of us have seen this: buddy comes over to help out, which gets taterized somewhere between hour 3 and 4 on account of a case of beer.

[@tombob671]

They're crooks not customers

[@bigbird2100]

Great video 👍 Ask for the other good cam because they are "paired" So you can better assess the situation 😉

[@SophiaAphrodite]

"Those tires are matched perfect and staggered special."

[@todd8109]

The numbers bring ground off is a signal that the customer saw EP-1 on the core and put a trashed piece back in the box looking for free money

[@powellmachineinc]

Absolutely

[@hondaelsinore1974]

I would NEVER warranty a flat tappet camshaft, or a roller! ANYTHING can fail in a high performance engine at ANY time for ANY reason beyond the machinists' control! Please don't let one turd ball ruin it for the rest of us! I plan on ordering two Mopar flat tappet camshafts from you in the very near future! I see your quality of work and appreciate what you do! And I am sure many more are like me! Thank you for these very informative videos! I have installed many new camshafts and have never lost a lobe in over 20 years. But up until I found your channel, I have always used NOS lifters from the 70's and 80's. I don't trust the new store bought lifters and probably never will again!

[@flyonbyya]

I lost a $25,000 stage 2 twin turbo Buick engine in a dyno fire at John Meany’s shop in 2003 in Hartland Michigan. Meany is the inventor of Big Stuff 3 Engine management I never got reimbursed…disaster…it’s all good… A flat tapper cam and lifter failure reimbursement??? NOT A CHANCE!

[@Experiment-cp1gj]

Your responsibility ends when it leaves your shop. You check all the boxes for quality control hardness, taper etc. If you get a tattoo and don’t let it heal right and ruin it it’s your fault not the artist. Can’t believe people these days. Yep long walk off a short pier is what I would tell them. A few of the people I race with have your cams I asked one how it was and he said it’s spot on my bulid.

[@ShadowOppsRC]

Nobody wants to be an adult and accountable for stupidity these days is what the problem is and I am not talking about Powell Machine. End user probably did not break it in or use assembly lube which is stupid important to do. Especially on a none roller lifter/cam setup. Also, had no clue had to get the mesh on the cam to distributer gear. Seems to me like the customer is not a mechanic like they claim to be and has no business working on a engine!

[@NBSV1]

Mistakes happen. This isn’t a tattoo. As a business you need to at least check to see if it’s something you did. Warranties exist for a reason. In this case he checked it and it likely isn’t even one they did. Even if it is the failure isn’t on them. He did what he should have done.

[@williewages5601]

Go pound sand is the answer

[@kennethward3354]

Karma will get Him ...... Proud of Powell machine..

[@viscountalpha]

You need a tiny mint mark that would be really hard to find unless it looked for. some laser etching on the side, somewhere that you could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's yours or not yours.

[@westcoast3595]

You nailed it. The gear tells the story. No prelube. No assembly lube either. It would not have failed. I have been doing engines for 60 yrs. Made plenty of mistakes along the way. Always followed the rules of break in. Oil up everything. If you can can run the oil pump for a while. Bruno up the oil pressure. I a couple of years ago had three lifters fail. I couldn’t get then from the cam manufacturer. I went a parts store supplier. I wrote it off to covid. To change it (personal rig) Jeep 4.0 it’s a real pain.

[@704406bbl]

I've seen enough. Roller cams for me from here on out!

[@mitchbertone3809]

Since you asked, I will toss 2 cents in, as I did work in a automotive machine shop and also as a mechanic. 2 ways to go. Give him his money back and never sell him anything again no matter how much he begs. Or just tell him you can't do anything for him because it's not your product so not your problem. Good luck. Also, serialize each unit with the invoice # and date.

[@williamcullum6676]

Regardless of your decision to refund or not refund I would buy a cam from you.

[@powellmachineinc]

Ty

[@elijah2078]

I am so afraid of the tedious break in procedure I now only install roller cams. Great video!!!

[@powellmachineinc]

Tyvm

[@Jeff-j7o]

I admire your patience. I would be irate dealing with that. From what I've seen on your channel you are straight up the top of the line machinist. I like the way you methodically go to the next limit to prove these morons wrong.

[@powellmachineinc]

It's just my nature

[@stevenbugkiller1]

There is nothing wrong with these cams 99 percent of the time! It is always break in procedure and poor oil choice. I have built motors for 40 years and not once have had cam issues on a engine that I did the break in myself. Also using incorrect spring pressure, usually too much, is a big issue.

[@watsisbuttndo829]

I had two in a row with grind issues. Both caught on a run in stand before failure. 1x summit pontiac cam, taper ground on BACKWARD! no lifter rotation on any lifters. Replaced with an eglin RA4 copy, very lazy lifter rotation on most lifters, a couple with virtually no rotation, taper was on the right direction but barely a thou. Took them to a local grinder and showed him and he ground me a new profile onto one of the cores, all lifters now very active.

[@danhillman4523]

Yeah. I could see that as an issue. Steel is steel though.

[@mikestavisky8009]

Yet he claims theirs a 50% failure rate for flat tappets..... like, why the fxck even sell something you insist is only "50" trustable...edit, spring pressure is a huge deal!

[@danhillman4523]

@@mikestavisky8009 Yes it is. Back in "the day" all head guys asked what cam you were running and made an effort to match the springs. assuming you wanted new ones.

[@rcollas4795]

a mate here in australia does alot of hi performance eng builds n he always puts 4 numbers on his bits he uses n he dont tell the customer the numbers .if a part is faulty n comes back he looks up his comp n types the customers name n the numbers he puts on come up . he then cross references the numbers on part to computer .if they match he fixes the problem if they dont he knows the customer is trying to rip him off .ive been doing same with harley motors i build for ppl n luckily had only one that was a fasle claim .

[@MaggieMcLaughlin-hd2gw]

I refused to take in a tub return at The Home Depot when I was a Head Cashier. I had to call the assistant manager because she was so mad that I refused it. The assistant manager told me to accept it and I again refused and told him that if he wanted to accept it that he had to put in his information and that I wanted nothing to do with it. After he accepted it and the customer left he marched me right to the store manager and wanted me fired. I laughed at him and asked the store manager to come up front and show him why I refused. It was a spa tub worth over $2,000 and still in its original box from Lowe’s. The assistant manager was fired almost immediately.

[@mtebaldi1]

So, the asst. manager was fired. What was wrong with the tub that you couldn't accept the return and give the customer their money back?

[@MaggieMcLaughlin-hd2gw]

@@mtebaldi1 it was a Lowe’s tub not a Home Depot sold item.

[@jasonochs8369]

@@MaggieMcLaughlin-hd2gw then how was it in the system? how can you refund an item you dont sell? Price? did he call lowes to get the amount to refund the person?

[@timsharpe2419]

You go way above and beyond like you did on that LS head with the perfect valve job with no leaks , you did what you thought was right or best they are two different things sometimes. I know you worry about perception but don't let people take advantage of you. love the videos i just started watching about 4 months ago , we love on the porch takes and videos , a friend and I always ask each other how did we get to where we are ???

[@Muffin_Masher]

Bubba bought a cheap cam and it junked his motor, so now he wants another GOOD cam that he should have bought in the first place, but wants YOU to pay for it. I'd tell him to go ride a seatless bicycle across state lines

[@eddiejeselink2996]

I still have a Cam Dynamics came from 1980 in my 351 Cleveland. Same lifters and still runs.

[@davelewis2174]

Get a custom stamp made at Buckeye engraving in kent ohio ,I use one on most everything i do

[@Anarchy-Is-Liberty]

I agree, something that can't be easily duplicated. Stamp it on everything you work on or create, then there is no doubt if it's yours!!

[@Mike62501]

Yup cheap insurance

[@TheJohndeere466]

Im just wondering if a camshaft could still be stamped after it has been hardened. As a machinist I would have my doubts.

[@davelewis2174]

i can drill &n tap them for pump drives the face or back can be stamped@@TheJohndeere466

[@jasonochs8369]

@@TheJohndeere466 they engrave the ends. Youre not stamping the lobe face.

[@yafois988]

This same archaic logic that approached you in this scenario, is why I didn't go into being a garage mechanic for myself. It's magically my fault, their starter failed a week later because I worked on the air cleaner heat riser tube. That's the very thing I heard and decided, No garage business for me. . Ppl making reckless claims in various forms like this. . Never mind 'you the car Owner' are primarily responsible for "proper mechanical Main & assembly of YOUR engine. Being mechanically negligent, on fundamental assembly procedure points, or in general (as typical as usual) doesn't default make the failed parts other ppl's liability. How hard is it to put 0.25c worth of yellow Gear paint on a Dist/Cam junction 'dizzy" to verify their surface(s) contact pattern? Takes maybe 30 minutes to assess the pattern, then established what it should look like, correcting for proper fit from there. Adding to the comment, did he do a yellow paint witness mark? ? If so can he produce this image so things so can be examined, because if there is a MFG issue we all need to resolve this looking for the "ROOT Cause".. If there is a faulty mechanic that induced this That need to be realize, in ALL Fairness for both parties. Anyway, I selected a Roller cam for my AMC 401 build, thanks to the information about the FT issues, having learned from viewing discussions about the topic.. Been an interesting venture. A Bit more cost, yet has been a very good learning situation realizing plus clearing up concerns what parts to consider. I found Verifying the dizzy's wear pattern in assembly was emphasized somewhat, and IMO is overlooked way too much by builders! There is a lot going on with this aspect and I'l never look at it the same from "learning" more thx to watching your videos...

[@powellmachineinc]

Yep

[@vikenlink]

I don’t think anyone warranties flat tappet camshaft’s after someone else installs it and it ends up wiping out a lobe . I personally think It’s out of your hands because of the fact you didn’t install it or break it in. As you said who knows what valve springs and most importantly what oil was used for break in process. Chances are the costumer used off the shelf high detergent oil with no zinc . Also was it even broken in properly. And… you didn’t even make that cam in the first place with the paint deal on it. Good idea to sell the beak in oil with the cam and lifters.

[@georgea6403]

I thought you had to have the work piece supported directly below the hardness contact point in order to get a correct reading?

[@powellmachineinc]

We have done it both ways with no real difference

[@2Atreehugger]

Been in the business in some fashion for 45 years. Nothing surprises me when it comes to s customers money.. there are awesome customers and then there those who will lie cheat to get something out of the “rich” business owners…. I now will only install a flat tappet cam if the engine gets direct oil lifters.

[@fasst5511]

Can you imagine if when all the OEMs used flat tappet cams in every new engine built if 50% of them failed? WTF is going on now?

[@jaxturner7288]

Lol no doubt, but what’s different nowadays?

[@richardthomas1743]

Tell them to go pound sand. I was in the Automotive field for many years. There is so many things that the user can do and not do correctly on their end when it comes to most any part. Like you said with the Cam and lifters , you do not know if it was broke in correctly and if the proper oil was used. And then there is a serious question as to if the cam is from your shop. The paint dot and the badly worn distributor gears.

[@ricksmith4736]

Agreed, you do not need customers like this slimey theif.....

[@wrenchmanhotrods1247]

That cam has a lot of miles on it , not just brake in . They are trying to get on over on you .

[@StuartBlake-iz6rf]

Morning mate. lots of good replies to the integrity question. My answer is to be as gentle as a dove and smart as a serpent. So, I believe you previously spoke of a "hard to find" identifier mark. Put your disclaimer in the box, noting all the "out of your control" factors with this type install, to be performed by professionals only. Any modification to the product, voids all warrenties, period. Tough being a business owner. Keep on marching the straight line.

[@ThemusMaximus]

I laugh at how so many people a saying you should laser etch or put a makers mark on your cams, yet your first reply to one of those comments below is "It was.....did you miss the part where the back is ground off?" Straight up, if your ID is removed = no warranty. Good job on going over everything thoroughly in the video.

[@edwardspaccarelli5944]

Sounds like they’re trying to pull a fast one.

[@Mr.SisterFisster]

Cant trust anyone. I have had so many people take advantage over the years. You cant just simply be a good honest person and expect the same in return.

[@powellmachineinc]

💯

[@nitrosport5]

If you want a waranty. Go buy a crate motor or a new car from the dealer!

[@leafhater1]

You're a quality guy that does quality work. You've proved it and they can take a flying leap! Ship it back.

[@setha360]

Last Summer I built a 1977 chevy 454, was losing sleep with wiping a camshaft bought a comp cams rv cam and found a stock new 1980 oem camshaft, went with the 1980 camshaft so far so good no ticking already pulled 6k trailer.

[@alexshackleford1065]

I hate this. I've had some excellent vendors who looked after me and many times just take my word for it. I’m honest. I've crossed paths with people like this customer, and they sicken me, slimy creeps with no moral fibre. And they ruin it for everyone. I have no time for them at all. What a waste of your valuable time. Glad you stuck to your guns on this.

[@powellmachineinc]

💯

[@SR-jz9wn]

Anyone have a clue why my Jeep 2.5L I4 I rebuilt would have tore apart my distributor gear on my new Melling cam after 50 miles? My thoughts are the cheap Duralast oil pump (last minute purchase) had too much resistance and shredded the gear. The oil pump gears had already started wearing on the pump's flat plate.

[@frankpeletz1818]

I know slant 6 have the same problem. Its the replacement cam gear cut and hardness. Thats why I regrind he original cam

[@solitudenomercy9661]

You rock brother! Get your trash from you shop put that cam in the trash bag and personanly drop it off tell him you got the wrong one

[@ecleveland1]

I have a friend that used to own a pet shop selling fresh and salt water fish. People would buy a live fish and expected a guarantee on the fish. Once that fish left the pet shop there was no guarantee on how that fish would be handled. People would go shopping at other places and leave the fish in a hot car, or take them home and just dump them in the tank without properly acclimating them. Then they would get upset when he didn’t replace the fish or give them a refund. He even put up a huge sign saying the fish had no guarantees of any kind and once they left the shop it was all the responsibility of the purchaser. People have gone crazy thinking anything they buy is guaranteed forever for any reason. It’s insane!

[@wayneessar7489]

We had a place here that sold fish with ick to newbies and said nothing to get a return on their sick fish.

[@Patriot6421]

Evidence is our natural guide to determine which way each case may go. When you have overwhelming evidence, there should not be a discussion of whether or not a refund is warranted. Refuse the refund based upon that the cam is not the one distribute. That cam came from a crackerjack box.

[@HobbyOrganist]

Back in the 90s I had a retired friend who restored his '65 pickup, had the engine bored etc etc, we put the new pistons, rings, bearings, cam, distributor, rebuilt head etc on, new clutch, I went to work, came back that night and the next day I learned my friend blew the engine driving down the driveway! We took it out, tore it down, determined one of the hydraulic lifters exploded and broke it's bore out and the shrapnel would up everywhere in the oil, runing all the new parts for a total loss. So why did the lifter explode? Turned out my friend got all the parts etc at NAPA and that the new lifters were a little LONGER than the old ones, and that one apparently bottomed out in the lifter. His lesson was; NAPA (any parts store) is never going to warantee parts you buy and install, once it's out the door it's your responsibility to make sure it's the RIGHT part and that everything is correct. I don't know how much longer the new lifter was, or if maybe they gave him the wrong ones, of or the stock number was printed wrong or what, whatever the cause- the lifters were too long and my friend didnt verify them before installing them :(

[@xSWAGNIx]

why not use laser stamp or something like that to prevent scams like these for healthy workflow , even tho im not a mechanic but im pretty sure its not hard to do correct me if im wrong , informative videos keep up the great work man .

[@powellmachineinc]

Well, did you miss the part where they ground all #'s off the back?

[@xSWAGNIx]

yeah didn't see till now these kind of people are shameless no honesty in retune of a great job this kinds of stuff separate a good mechanics of bad ones idk what to say man keep up the great work and try to figure it out@@powellmachineinc

[@btwbrand]

@@powellmachineinc Lots of comments didn't understand your indirect insinuation the identifier numbers were ground off because they are not aware that numbers are located on that end of the camshaft. So yes, they did miss that part because you didn't explain it to them as if they know nothing about camshafts. " the end has been ground" is not enough information for those leaving comments to understand.

[@dasig2]

Laser dot

[@andrew_brent]

This ole world is full of shady people trying to pull the blinders on anyone at anytime. I'd tell them something that's probably not appropriate for all viewers LOL

[@jmcc5877]

Bet you a dime for a dollar that cam in the video is the cam that your cam replaced.

[@Mike-ff7ib]

The ole Amazon return trick. Steel the product and put your used garbage back in the package to return.

[@evanknight3629]

I had a different situation but similar in a way, I work at a powersports dealer and we sold a go kart and went over the 5 hour break in period for the air cooled engine, a couple days later it comes back beaten to hell and his wife drops it off and tells us that they took it camping and the kids had driven it sun up to sun down for 3 days, and now it won’t run, we tear the motor down and the oil is cooked and the engine is blown up, the go kart was still in warranty but the break in wasn’t followed so it was void, when we called the husband and told him the bill he flipped out and claimed that they rode less than 5 hours and broke it in properly, 2 different stories and the engine spoke for itself

[@markbutler5127]

YEP, POUND SAND !!!!!! I've worked in the automotive field most of my life, so many tell's here.

[@sonicdewd]

Where you were explaining where you have control (two items) and where you *don't* have any control should all be written in a comprehensive warranty with a sticky note stuck to it telling the purchaser to read the warranty carefully. This warranty should also probably be on the website. Also, when grinding the unit, grind in a unique identifier such as maybe a small bevel on a bearing side, or a radial mark made by touching off a cutting tool in an inconspicuous place such as on the side of a lobe, etc. Make it NOT look like an identifying mark, but instead make it look like a tool mark that appears to have been made as part of the manufacturing process. Put some thought into it. Keep this quiet - proprietory knowledge only your shop will know (don't run a KZbin video on this of course). When rejecting a claim, mention only that your analysis of specific features revealed that the cam did not come from your shop. Nothing more than that. After writing this, I spied someone else made a similar suggestion. Maybe I've added some detail you can use, I don't know.

[@jimstewart8394]

pound sand

[@patrickwalton1768]

Is that Rockwell Form C on the Hardness test? Setting that cam in a prisum is all well and good. But testing in an area that is not supported will falsify the reading. You need to test it at the prisum blocks...

[@powellmachineinc]

C scale, yes we have tested this theory before, no measurable difference

[@patrickwalton1768]

@@powellmachineincwhat/ how is the hardening prosses on those Cams? I am curious because I am a Tool maker ( Fixtures) and when we test any kind of shaft or spindle. We normally either lay it in a cradle prisum that holds the whole work piece to the table. Or if it isn't too long at the ends. And then protocol the readings.

[@patrickwalton1768]

@@powellmachineinc and yeah I understand that with cam lobes you can't use a cradle prisum.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@patrickwalton1768 induction now, use to be chilled

[@donaldgreen9292]

tell them to get lost. I work as a mechanic for a fleet. I can tell you I have seen more issues caused by improper replacement process than a part failure.

[@simonatkinson1107]

It’s good to see a professional who does his homework and knows his subject. You did a detailed examination of the cam they sent you and you spotted the little things we would never think to check. I’m sure others have said that this is possibly the cam they took out to put yours in, then sent the old one back to you expecting an instant “No questions asked” refund. My opinion is the customer gets nothing from you! Not your cam means it’s not your problem. Sadly there are some seriously dishonest characters out there who will try anything to get something for free. I will also join the other people who have suggested you start using a discrete and unique identifier mark as an extra reference point when checking returns.

[@josephleister9198]

I worked for NAPA for almost thirty years, and performance parts did not carry a warranty....distributor gear is kinda interesting being such low hour....maybe engine full of dirt or metal....

[@deanwitt7903]

I agree that you can not warranty a FT camshaft . Why ? Because There are thousands of guys out there who are backyard mechanics who spout all sorts of numbers etc and try to sound knowledgeable but really do not understand what they are saying . This is the same for many qualified mechanics as well who will tell you all sorts of crap to get your job but once paid and a problem arises they don’t want to know . In my opinion most cams gone bad at break in are due to incorrect spring pressures . If you can guarantee hardness at sale then your conscience is clear and can’t be held liable for a clown masquerading as a competent engine builder . .

[@truracer20]

If I were to set up shop making camshafts I wouldn't have any flat tappet stuff. Not because I don't like them but because people are extremely stubborn and hard headed when it comes to zinc additives. They'll spend $15k + on an engine but $15 more per oil change for a bottle of ZDDP additive is too much of a frivolous expense and a hassle. The old-timers are some of the worst, "bull s**t I built lotsa engines aint never needed no magic oil before"...

[@MyRealDelusion]

No absolutely not and I know your thinking is it worth just giving it to them for your reputation and moving on but you have to draw the line somewhere. Dealing with the public is an art in itself. I love how you turn this headache into a positive thing with making this video. Genius.

[@SteveP116]

There are so many people trying to get over. Love seeing quality work in your videos. I would not give money back

[@powellmachineinc]

Ty