Wants a refund on on a wiped out cam that I didn't even make?!

A engine builder returns a cam that was wiped out and wan a refund.... bu we didn't even grind it....
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[@Super34racer]

My opinion is the numbers being ground off voids all warranty.

[@powellmachineinc3179]

💯

[@sharkskinboy]

I agree. Proof of purchase is a basic requirement for a refund in any business. The terms of warranty should clearly state that any mods to the product (including removing numbers) voids warranty. That being said, because of the variables in running in a flat tappet cam, as Daniel described, there should be no refunds at all unless there's clear evidence of manufacturing errors.

[@MrTheHillfolk]

Yeah at that point its hard to say thats even the cam,he coulda dug it out of a scrap engine and is pulling a fast one to get a "freebie".

[@chiefrocka8604]

I’ve got a mate who worked on superstars rally cars and he will buy parts and fit the nackered ones In the box and send it back , then the next idiot who buys it really has a problem … that’s how you do it so beware

[@chiefrocka8604]

Oh and he tells me don’t bring him parts that ave been opened 😂

[@022367ASM]

The wear on that distributor gear speaks for itself. Any and ALL of your products going out of your shop should be marked specifically with an identifier so you know it came from your shop. Period.

[@nellermann]

Don't you have some kind of micro code or makers mark you can print with laser on the non wear areas? You can't trust anyone today!

[@JJayzX]

@@nellermann there's even simpler etchers which I believe is a slightly wet acidic paper and a die with mark and some electricity.

[@danhillman4523]

No, that means nothing.

[@johnqpublic4012]

@@danhillman4523 What the fuck are you talking about? Short of a shop or individual putting in the effort to attempt to replicate an identifier, it's a reasonable solution. An etched logo and/or unique identifier should be on each of the products that ship out this guy's door to prevent exactly this type of "I'm 99% sure we didn't make this part." guessing game. Unless you're referring to the gear wear, in which case I'd take this guy's expertise over whatever you believe yours to be, any day.

[@badgermetal]

Mark it so small you would need a microscope to check it and don't let anyone know exactly how to replicate it or what to look for.

[@finscreenname]

One Spring I had a woman bring in a set of snow tires to be returned that she apparently used the past winter. I told her there was 2 reasons I could not return them for her. First, they were used and second, we didnt sell snow tires at the Home Depot. She then wanted to see the manager.

[@ChevyConQueso]

Wow. 😂 Bold move, lady. I'm sure it paid off. Somewhat similar, when working auto parts 20 years ago, we had customers who'd lose their top over warranties we couldn't find, and a few of them would go dig up receipts from their glove box or house and come back. They'd just stop talking and walk out pissed when we'd point to the competitor's name or logo on the piece of paper. Don't think I ever got an apology from anyone over it either.

[@countryjoe3551]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@toddanders5218]

Her name is Karen.

[@jonathancharnes7984]

was she blond

[@Zedsdead83]

Course she wanted a manager. The balls on some people and the stupidity is unreal

[@boomslang1118]

Grinding off the numbers tells us all we need to know. POUND SAND, THEN KICK ROCKS!

[@trentdawg2832]

Shoot gravel and travel

[@tdw5933]

Screw em and feed em beans

[@araparts]

People do this without blinking an eye. They talk about it like it’s coupon cutting or something. We deal with this on a regular basis. Customer buys our part, initiates a return for a refund. We end up receiving a cheaper one of subpar quality. They really turn a blind eye to the fact that it’s friendly fraud. We always fight these customers to the maximum. Thank you for putting this out there.

[@FluffPuffkotj]

Those are not customers. They are thieves.

[@funnyfarm5555]

Exactly why Amazon changed its return policy. Too many people abusing the system. I heard awhile back about high schoolers buying a prom dress, wearing it to the prom and then returning it to the store(free rental/theft).

[@asdasd-ni8eg]

Friendly fraud hey, i'd just call it fraud. But because its a business people see it different.

[@ZachStein]

That's theft.

[@TheQuantumPotato]

I wouldn't even call it friendly fraud, there's no such thing. It's an attempted theft. Such a shame that guys like yourselves have to deal with this while you're trying to make quality products.

[@jamesgeorge4874]

The amount of parts I open that are "new in box" that some cretin took out the new parts, put their old, broke junk in, then carefully glued shut, and returned as not used, is becoming all too common. 30+ years as a tech, seen it more in 5 years, then the previous 26.

[@grivolas2144]

As a parts guy I have to inspect every return. I've had people repaint shocks saying they were new, and the paint was still wet.

[@briang4470]

I was talking to the manager at one of the big local parts suppliers and he told me about how people nowadays will actually buy new spark plugs, change them out and carefully put the used ones in the new boxes and very carefully glue the boxes shut and then return them saying that "we didn't need them/use them" and try to scam the store for their money back, its a sad world we are in today. I have also received several parts from them that were "new" that at some point someone put their used stuff back in the box and returned them, one time was 2 different ignition switches (both obviously original and heavily used)and another on was a window regulator(had old grease and finger smudges all over it.

[@AndrewNeilBaird]

Your right , a guy returned 2 2kg bags of lentils in a glued shut brake rotor box to me and demanded a refund.

[@qrevere5546]

😂😂😂 ​@@grivolas2144

[@jaxturner7288]

It was unheard of back in the day, now it’s rampant. 👍

[@rogercook1737]

Fifty years ago long before I had ever heard of break in oil and had no info on how to break in a cam, I just coated them with STP used a drill to bring up the oil pressure for a while. When I started it I ran them at about 2500 rpm for 15 to 20 minutes and never lost a cam that I remember. Enjoyed the video!

[@tetedur377]

Yup, that's the way we did it back then.

[@keysautorepair6038]

This should tell you everything you need to know think about it.

[@rcdogmanduh4440]

STP on an engine rebuild ! Yep, those were the 70's lol !

[@gregk.6723]

@@rcdogmanduh4440 STP and match heads.

[@butchking154]

u could put a used cam in your eng back in the day fire it up and never have a problem

[@rolfhansen2175]

Upon first sight of the first lifter you tested, it appears to have a serious scraping condition on its body. Indicating to me that the lifter was not rotating, and its bore is either dirty, not round, or both. Also the wear pattern on that cam does show that it has some lobe taper left, however it has lots of wear on it. I've built engines for over 50 years. I watch your videos and learn from them. I think you do nice work. Carry On !

[@danhillman4523]

Wow, look! Someone knows what they're talking about.

[@ZeroTwn]

Not quite nice, as for me. He could have filmed every square inch of the part in great details on receiving the part. It costs nothing in money and less than minute in time, he did not. And now he's telling fairy tale trying to convince the public that the part looked differently.

[@user-me8hc3bs7i]

That’s the failure mode of all flat tappets that die early. During break in the lifters don’t spin or stop spinning for whatever reason and at that points is a grind off between the lobe and lifter face. The oils suck now. The QC on camshaft lobe taper is horrific from most grinders these days, and the lifter QC is so bad that you get more batch’s with a flat lifter than you will a full set of concave ones. I’ve seen cams grind with no taper on the lobes, grinds with the taper in the wrong direction for a particular lobe, soft as a wet noodle core material, etc. Todays flat tappet lifters are even more problematic than the cams. And the big names have become junk. Comp cams is just moving quantity without a care anymore, edelbrock couldn’t grind a concentric valve seat if their life depended on it, and the entire Holley umbrella has figured out if you make the customer service phone wait long enough, returns go down because people give up.

[@iceman9678]

Consider putting a discrete machine mark(s) on your camshafts before they leave your shop. Make note of this "customer's" information. There are plenty of good customers out there and you don't need to waste time on bad ones. You can't given them their money back. You didn't get it for that item.

[@2packs4sure]

That's exactly what I was thinking,, some kind of hidden discreet only seen under magnification identifying mark...

[@radioactivelight]

I agree

[@gkindustrialmachine1]

Laser engraver ... doesn't need to be hidden, A image or shop trade mark. End of story .....not a paint mark, that's stupid

[@nicholassmerk]

@@gkindustrialmachine1 an encoded serial number (QR code?) that matches a decoded number and date on the invoice.

[@gkindustrialmachine1]

@@nicholassmerk oh yes perfect

[@eb972]

Them sneaky camshaft fairies.

[@Scummy_shovel]

Every year customers get harder and harder to deal with. I have one now I’m about to fire. He has run straight gas in his two stroke twice now. First time I warrantied it and even gave him a brand new colored jug a ratiorit measuring cup and a jug of two stroke oil. Brings it back a month later sized up. I been doing this long enough to know what a top end looks like ran without premix. He swears he dint run straight gas. And the tank did have premix. So I assumed he mixed the gas after it locked up so (again I been doing this a while). Before I let him leave I jerked the carb off. Drained the bowl in front of him and it’s 100% straight gas! And this dude still wants to stand there and say “that’s impossible”. Guess he thought just filling the gas tank would fool me. I’m glad this wasn’t my first rodeo and I pulled the carb while he was here.

[@shadetree6981]

I've never seen crystal clear 50:1 premix... maybe way back in the day when we used SAE 30, but even then it wasn't crystal clear.

[@Scummy_shovel]

@@shadetree6981 me neither. What’s that got to do with it? I tell ya tho. The bellray mc1 two stroke oil mixes almost as clear as I have ever seen. It’s really good two stroke oil and I use it in everything. But it makes me question rather it’s premix or not if I leave it sitting in a jug and go back to it a month later. Several times have I poured regular gas and what I’m pretty sure has been mixed in a clear container just so I can confirm to myself lol. It just barely darkens it enough when you compare with straight it’s obvious. It comes out of the jug sort of a light blue to where most two stroke oil is black and will tint the gas a good deal. My grand pa was a professional flat track racer. He tells me stories that’s all the guys would use back then was straight30 mixed 40/1 in the race bikes and 50/1 in everything else. I stopped over there one day and he was getting ready to mow and I seen him pouring a dab of bellray in his mower. I said. “Pops that doesn’t take premix”. He says. “I know. I’m not that damn senile yet. But I enjoy the smell, leave me alone” 😂

[@kennyscarborough9374]

I do not warranty my two-stroke repairs for that reason, especially for internal parts,Bad mix on operators part could keep you struggling for years to keep their stuff running!!

[@russmathis3549]

Its like the company I used to work for, the incompetent jerk that ran thr orchards blew up 2 big ford gas trucks, 534 engines. Rod knocks, he had a history of not checking oil. Said its full , yeah it was full of fresh clean oil. DUH. Filled it after it started knocking.

[@frankjohnson6342]

My brother used to be a small engine mechanic for Sears back in the days when if you needed a lawnmower you went to Sears not Lowe’s or Home Depot. Sears was having their manufacturers to keep cutting corners and making the mowers cheaper and cheaper so it became imperative for the owners to check the oil in the lawnmower’s before each use and of course they wouldn’t and the engine would seize up or throw the connecting rod through the block. Because it was still under warranty they now put clean fresh oil into the motor and bring it back to Sears for a free new motor. My brother would ask did they check the oil and every single person would say oh yes everytime before I use it, so he would pull out the dipstick and sure enough the oil level was right where it was supposed to be and the customer would say “see just like I told you”. He would invite them back to the shop and put their mower on the bench that was used for oil changes, remove the dipstick and then turn the mower over and out would come the nice clean new gold oil but there would be a sudden change in the color of the oil and the last 3/4 cup would be this black burnt oil that was still in the lower part of the block that they added the fresh gold oil to after the motor seized. People will lie up a storm to try and get their money back for their mistakes as long as someone else pays the bill. Tell this guy to go pound sand and there should also be no further dropping off of failed parts and leaving l so you both can go over the part with the customer there and if doesn’t have the time tell him to take his part with him and come back when you both have time to examine the part. I don’t think he would have come back with that cam shaft under those conditions because he knew he was trying to get over on you at your expense.

[@dustinloudermilk4349]

Tell them to pound sand.... I have watched several of your videos...from what I see your work is 2nd to none...keep up the great work and don't let the small number of dishonest people deter you..

[@jamesroberts807]

Sand pounder for the win 😅😂😊

[@rudyandtinahildebrand647]

1st time ⏲️

[@v8packard]

Warranty extends to the point of installation. It is the responsibility of the installer to determine if components being assembled are as required for installation. Beyond that, errors in assembly, break in, or operation are not covered by any warranty. You do your part. If someone goofs up down the line, it is not on you. I can assure you the big boys don't warranty wiped out cams.

[@brianholcomb6499]

I think I’ve read that somewhere for the last 30+ years somewhere 😂😂😂😂!

[@COLLAR01]

I agree, its not like COMP hasnt made millions on flat AF cams lol

[@v8packard]

@@brianholcomb6499 It's at the bottom of all of my invoices 😂

[@DanielJohnson-ec8rk]

So you have the ability to fully inspect a cam to make sure it’s ground to your specs? I highly doubt it. So warranty on a starter or alternator is only until installation? Common sense isn’t so common with some folks

[@v8packard]

@@DanielJohnson-ec8rk Yes, I have a Audie Cam Pro. I also have a hardness tester, and a Tobin Arp lifter radius gauge. Beyond that, it isn't difficult to inspect these components with more conventional tools (v blocks, indicators, degree wheels, etc.) If you are trying to compare price point alternators to precision engine building you can not be helped.

[@bettyro1959]

You seem like an honest man that goes above and beyond what you need too, and also takes pride in your work and cares about your customers. I would tell people like this to go pound sand!

[@user-wv1pj6wh4h]

well seen is one thing beoing is another.. iamnot saying he isnt..

[@user-me8hc3bs7i]

I’ll never forget working at an autozone while I was in college and a guy brought back a timing chain covered in oil and said it didn’t fix his problem. Told him couldn’t return it. 8 hours later he comes back assuming shift change. Walks in and pretends like he’s never seen me and asks to return it. I pull it out again and it’s still dripping wet with brake cleaner where he sprayed it off in the parking lot. He said he would never shop there again and I thanked him for the assurance.

[@ronnierobinson1502]

I agree with you...customer trying to pull a fast one

[@powellmachineinc3179]

💯

[@Anarchy-Is-Liberty]

If that's the case, can you really call that person a "customer"? Sounds more like a criminal!!

[@leolo2222]

Sometimes you have to fire a customer.

[@flinch622]

Could be free range morons - been seeing alot of that lately. Maybe laser etch job numbers on far end/opposite timing chain end? Peace of mind awaits. I think many of us have seen this: buddy comes over to help out, which gets taterized somewhere between hour 3 and 4 on account of a case of beer.

[@tombob671]

They're crooks not customers

[@earlywhiskey1847]

I like the laser etching idea something proprietary to you. Keep up the great work!

[@powellmachineinc3179]

It was, they ground it off

[@MrTonyPiscatelle]

@@powellmachineinc3179 If they ground on the cam it should all be on them, no questions asked !

[@justin423]

@@powellmachineinc3179 My answer to them if the ground off a proprietary mark would be: "Here is my lawyer's number. He is waiting for your call..."

[@Absaalookemensch]

@@powellmachineinc3179 An honest person would not deliberately grind off a laser etched ID mark. They can pound sand. They're trying to rip you off. It's obvious that you are honest by how much this is bothering you. A dishonest person doesn't think twice about their dishonesty, except to figure out how to get away with it.

[@jamessharp9790]

Funny how every time I have to fire a customer -I seem to get about 3 more who are great to deal with.

[@surferdude4487]

I'm pretty sure that this POS is the cam they replaced. Your amazing product is working just fine in the engine in which it was installed.

[@powellmachineinc3179]

Tyvm!

[@bills6093]

I would definitely be marking my work, documenting that mark, and absolutely making it clear that there is no warranty if my mark is defaced. Perhaps you can document hardness as well, and if parts come back soft, then they have been overheated and also would not be under any warranty.

[@jeffmcauliff8487]

As a high performance part and a risky one to full with at that I think all flat tappet stuff should be a tail light warranty. Especially a class legal type cam. It's racing. Most racers and down to earth people know what's a warranty issue vs just racing and pushing your crap hard

[@Scummy_shovel]

Well sadly sir. This type of mindset is a thing of the past. I’m a motorcycle mechanic. I had a guy bring me a bone stock 450 motor that had a hole on the piston. Told me he wanted it rebuilt back to stock shape. He had the motor one month brought it back for piston issues . I tore it apart again. piston had a hole . Wasn’t sure what caused it under stock usage. . I warrantied it. Two months later brings it back same issue. I noticed some odd gas burning issues. I’m like dude. wtf you doing to this thing “Oh I’m a hill climb racer and we mix our own fuel. Gives me the recipe of the crap he has been using”. I go back and forth with this guy for a few days and finally just took the engine and throwed it on his porch. I been doing this 20 years and always stand behind my work. It when you take a stock built engine. Run the wrong fuel and race the damn thing at the full extreme. I can’t keep paying for pistons out of pocket. Month later I was talking to another local motorcycle builder and he tried the same crap with him. I even offered to build him a race reliable engine that would last for a season. Those guys rarely get a full season out of engines. Guess it’s just cheaper for him to scam people.

[@ChrisContin]

Special warranty is needed for excessive wear, such as racing or pulling a hard-load. It is not "normal use" which if the intended use of the vehicle is "stock" or "class-use" then the warranty is voided.

[@mikestavisky8009]

That's fair enough, but at break in????

[@jeffmcauliff8487]

@@mikestavisky8009 yes at break in. Not everybody makes sure that the lifters turn freely and all other stuff has been handled. Flat tappit cams if they make it past brake in your good

[@mitchm275]

any engine i assemble, whether i supply the parts (which i prefer and always insist on) i stamp two numbers in the cam end, most usually the top of piston, next to other part numbers, machined pad on the block and heads, intake most times i engrave the rods, if there are any hurricane china knocks off floating around, when i rebuilt trans i stamp pan rail, pump and VB. i have had this trick pulled many times. i even stamp replacement alternators, starters, waterpumps, etc for my own warranty work. letters people notice numbers blend in. i have seen so many numbers stamped on gm oil pan rails no one notices another set. my initials are LM so i stamp a 73 upside down 7 next to 3 on its face always clear as day if its my part. i tell them all i can identify my parts and if i see any grinding in areas where manufactures numbers should be, which where i add mine when possible this voids all warranties, mine and the manufactures. then i cover it better by stating any modification, grinding, sanding, or misuse , neglect, abuse, lack of lube and cooling, voids it all. that stops 99% if your ident is missing, thats malicious given where its been ground. NO REFUND! based on what i can see in vid, that cam had way too much spring pressure, good taper, worn lobes, worn dist gear, but also they used a very high pressure pump, that loaded the dist gear, and tho the cam dont appear to be oil straved, very high press pumps not set up right tend to give low volume by opening the relief reducing flow no SBC gen1 needs a pump that big

[@DXT61]

And with all that i bet you still have folks try to claim you are wrong.

[@mitchm275]

@@DXT61 it may happen very infrequently after starting that process. before yes, after not as much, due to the fact i tell the ones i feel most apt to , we all can get a sense of people enough to know, but i tell them i know my parts, i have recorded the numbers on them, the date of purchase, install and sale, and most of my jobs i actually create customer based files for on my pc. requires little time and SSD space, take pictures of each part, showing all stampings, numbers including my own stamps. they go into the customer pc files. any dispute we pull the pics, compare. ends any dispute directly . i am 63 fully ASE certified, been in this biz since the early 80's and have seen every trick customers can play. i had to find a way to get a head of them and this works. once they know you recorded parts and sometimes installation with pics/vids and i show them i had when they make the payment. they have that in the back of their mind from the get go. it seems time restrictive but really its not.

[@johncoops6897]

​@@mitchm275- this guy doesn't sound like he is intelligent enough to have any form of documentation or QA processes like you described.

[@mikestavisky8009]

​@@DXT61and yet, he can prove it's not wrong... with no markings or signature or serialization, it's impossible. Especially after you admit e out of 4 versions come from the same stock as any other companies "non identifiable" cheapo stock.......

[@hollywoodtshirts159]

Suggestion: To help verify your work, get a laser engraving machine and have a expert create a unique and difficult to duplicate logo and engrave all your work with the logo and the date the work was done. You can even add a serial number to each piece and load the serial numbers into a spreadsheet with customers info. Hope this helps avoid you getting ripped off.

[@powellmachineinc3179]

It was

[@johncoops6897]

​@@powellmachineinc3179- it was *WHAT* ??? Why dismiss the numerous suggestions being made to you about protecting yourself against some "alleged problem" that wasted time making a video to moan about?

[@brian_sipe]

@@johncoops6897 What he's been saying to all the people with the same suggestion, is that he laser engraves all the cams he sells, and this one had the front ground off to hide what it was.

[@johncoops6897]

@@brian_sipe - well, he DID NOT say that in the video. He rants for ages, yet only mentions paint dots that other suppliers apply. There is absolutely no reason for this video if the cam that was returned wasn't the cam he supplied. So, based on this video, I call BS on his claimed "laser marking". He never shows it, he never mentions it, so it's most likely he's just lying to counter the obvious suggestions that viewers are making in comments here.

[@brian_sipe]

@@johncoops6897 buddy, this guy has a whole website with his products on it, and damned near all of them are laser etched. C'mon dude.

[@ericwiltz6584]

I have little knowledge of engine building so I can't comment on the technical aspects of this subject. With that said, there is nothing like seeing a man that is a strait shooter and tells it like it is. What I really like is he approaches each and every issues in an educational manner to us. When he passes judgement and ALWAYS based on fact he does it in such a polite manner. My vote: "pound sand!" Thank you for just being real!!!!

[@user-wv1pj6wh4h]

the strange thing is shop have many customers shotinmg, worked in one for yeras and not a single client saying anyhting, .. sometimes we have even made jokes with customers...

[@denniswalker4351]

This is the difficult part of owning a business. A grievous position to be in for sure. Be the customer honest or dishonest your business will always be spoken of negatively by him. Do what you feel right about in your heart. You are honest and that shows.

[@richardhummel8882]

I like this episode. Very good discussion on modern Flat Tappet Cams. Years ago hardly ever had failure. Today it’s common!

[@ssaafur]

I continue to marvel at the aspects of engine work that simply boggles my mind. I have no understanding whatsoever as to the specifications and design herein or what it results in but the attention to detail is lovely. Great video.

[@davidbaldwin1591]

I'm telling on myself on 2 warranty issues, not related to cars: I'm an average judge of faulty equipment, slow to ask for help to make it good, but I admit to requesting warranty service twice on valuable products, when I was partially wrong. After the warranty was done free of charge, on both of them, I reflected on their opinions, and they did have at least partial merit to their side. I still use both companies, because I trust them: Thanks to Meyco pool covers, and Springfield Armory. I'm so sorry guys. I didn't fully comprehend what you meant. You are awesome!

[@MarineGrunt]

As far as any warranty on high performance parts , my understanding has always been : If I install it and it breaks into 10 pieces ....I get to keep all the pieces . That's from my end , as a buyer , not a manufacturer . I buy the part and accept the risk of installing it myself . If I did think I was sold a defective piece , I'd include my receipts and dates of install . Doesnt sound like any of that happened either .

[@rolop847]

Bingo there is no receipt the numbers were filed off so of course this is a scam

[@mikestavisky8009]

Doesn't sound like IT DIDNT HAPPEN either tho, he didn't SAY anything about that...

[@MarineGrunt]

Agree . Seems like Daniel would have said something like " We checked out records and we did sell parts to the guy 6-7 months ago " ..or something like that . That part was left out entirely . @@mikestavisky8009

[@edwardspaccarelli5944]

Sounds like they’re trying to pull a fast one.

[@leroythemastermechanic]

THERE IS NO GARRANTEE ON HIGH PERFORMANCE PARTS. There are too many things out of the control of the parts manufacturer. We tell ALL customers that many times to cut off the B.S.! AND there are too many people trying to hustle you when if there is a failure! My hats off to you, Thank You for being strong!!!!!

[@Mike-xt2ot]

You gave a really in depth explanation. Nothing more than you can do. The hardness and taper shows it was caused by factors beyond your control. Good video

[@mikestavisky8009]

You mean the hardness from 40ish to 60ish? And what taper? Sure it's visible, but no specific measurements or dimensions were given.....

[@woods-garage]

I caught the comment where one end of the cam was ground, but it wasn’t clear to me at that point that’s where you already mark your cams. With your marks either ground off or it not being yours in the first place, the customer shouldn’t expect a warranty. If you buy some headers and dimple a couple tubes to make them fit, you own them - no returns on modified stuff. That cam was modified from original, and that’s reason enough not to warranty it.

[@davebishop8683]

Good content. Agreed - flat tappet stuff is a roll of the dice. If it was a good customer, maybe offer to give them credit for the cam/lifters towards a roller cam/lifters/pushrods/springs. If not a good customer - send them on their way.

[@leehiller2489]

I work at CWC and the paintmark on the end is from a 3rd party inspector that verifies that the cam meets spec before shipment. There should be an engraved date time on this cam and a casting date with A= Jan, B= Feb, ect. In matched sets these rarely vary by much because of the limited amount of gray iron runs we schedule as ductile iron cams and cranks make up 95-97% of our products.

[@leafhater1]

You're a quality guy that does quality work. You've proved it and they can take a flying leap! Ship it back.

[@stevej8478]

You should laser etch an identifing mark on your work or engrave something. Something not really noticable but distinctive enough if there is ever a question

[@powellmachineinc3179]

It was.....did you miss the part where the back is ground off?

[@stevej8478]

SOrry man, yeah I was interrupted from my brother just for a minute and did not hit pause. Naturally it would have to be at the wrong spot LOL @@powellmachineinc3179

[@erisgilliard7341]

@@powellmachineinc3179 I have to admit that I missed the that reference and have been unable to find it. Heard and saw the dot and pink slash but still missed the part about the back being ground. Not sure either exactly what is meant by the "cam doctor" so If you get a chance, can you please cover it in the future and I apologize if it was already covered and I just missed it.

[@waylinbuerger2753]

@@powellmachineinc3179 Since the back identification was ground off, that would be a automatic warrantee void right off the bat...Obviously they are trying to pull something shady. Tell them to pound sand.

[@icin4d]

@@powellmachineinc3179 That should automatically disqualify a warranty request. If this area is ground for a specific reason for the build, then may be find another location for your identifier.

[@rtb4008]

Well spoken. As a hobbyist engine builder that has lost a few cams over 30 years ( one last week) , I understand completely about the 2 variables in your control. Sounds like to me flat tappet camshafts and lifters could only be warranted if never installed.

[@jeffreyellis5343]

Not only are you thorough in your explanation, but you never lost your nerve one second in this video. You have integrity.

[@powellmachineinc3179]

Ty

[@hollywoodtshirts159]

Engrave before doing the work so part is balanced true when required. You seem like an honest business man and some customers abuse that. Wish you great success and stay strong.

[@stevenbugkiller1]

There is nothing wrong with these cams 99 percent of the time! It is always break in procedure and poor oil choice. I have built motors for 40 years and not once have had cam issues on a engine that I did the break in myself. Also using incorrect spring pressure, usually too much, is a big issue.

[@watsisbuttndo829]

I had two in a row with grind issues. Both caught on a run in stand before failure. 1x summit pontiac cam, taper ground on BACKWARD! no lifter rotation on any lifters. Replaced with an eglin RA4 copy, very lazy lifter rotation on most lifters, a couple with virtually no rotation, taper was on the right direction but barely a thou. Took them to a local grinder and showed him and he ground me a new profile onto one of the cores, all lifters now very active.

[@danhillman4523]

Yeah. I could see that as an issue. Steel is steel though.

[@mikestavisky8009]

Yet he claims theirs a 50% failure rate for flat tappets..... like, why the fxck even sell something you insist is only "50" trustable...edit, spring pressure is a huge deal!

[@danhillman4523]

@@mikestavisky8009 Yes it is. Back in "the day" all head guys asked what cam you were running and made an effort to match the springs. assuming you wanted new ones.

[@bigbird2100]

Great video 👍 Ask for the other good cam because they are "paired" So you can better assess the situation 😉

[@westcoast3595]

You nailed it. The gear tells the story. No prelube. No assembly lube either. It would not have failed. I have been doing engines for 60 yrs. Made plenty of mistakes along the way. Always followed the rules of break in. Oil up everything. If you can can run the oil pump for a while. Bruno up the oil pressure. I a couple of years ago had three lifters fail. I couldn’t get then from the cam manufacturer. I went a parts store supplier. I wrote it off to covid. To change it (personal rig) Jeep 4.0 it’s a real pain.

[@ramabamaboomboom]

The amount of time and energy you put into evaluating a potential issue is amazing.

[@mikestavisky8009]

You mean the 7 minutes?

[@flyonbyya]

I lost a $25,000 stage 2 twin turbo Buick engine in a dyno fire at John Meany’s shop in 2003 in Hartland Michigan. Meany is the inventor of Big Stuff 3 Engine management I never got reimbursed…disaster…it’s all good… A flat tapper cam and lifter failure reimbursement??? NOT A CHANCE!

[@Necrotic99]

I think you have good points to highlight all around and I would think this isn't a repeat customer (since usually repeat don't try to scam you), so usually I would decline a request like this. There are a couple exceptions here, if you think he will damage your reputation more than its worth to "refund" him then do it, but never work with him. If he is a repeat customer, let him know of the issues you identified and that you don't believe it was yours but give him a goodwill credit, then start doing a discrete unique mark going forward and keep an eye out for this customer doing this in the future (consider it the cost of doing business and learning a new lesson).

[@Survival427FE]

Absolutely correct on the source info. I worked at Federal-Mogul for a long while and we owned Camshaft Machine for a bit. For a short time after the acquisition of CMC I was the sales contact for bulk and private label customers. CWC Textron cast all of the cores and flame hardened them over gas jets on rollers. At that point the cores had no idea what name was gonna end up "on the box". Camshaft machine, Engine Power Components, or Weyburn-Bartell (closed up decades ago now) did semifinished grinds - rough lobes, journals, distributor gears, and end faces and drilling/tapping operations. On customer request they would also finish grind and even package. The various paint dabs and stripes are how EPC or CMC identifies a semi-finished or finished camshaft. They are inventoried in bulk and the customer part numbers are only stamped on them when inventory is pulled for shipping and/or packaging. Somewhere I still have a book with the CMC paint marking to part number interchange.

[@MattsMadnessOfficial]

I have build 100's of engines never had a camshaft fail, but just about every engine I tore apart to build had a wiped out cam , I think its oil and break-in I always use the same mix of oil/additives and break -in every engine on the test stand the same way, I never let a engine leave my shop until it is broke-in the owner can hear it run before they load it up that way there is no question after it leaves they on their own.

[@radioactivelight]

I love your no nonsense attitude I like that you live in the real world Common sense

[@powellmachineinc3179]

Tyvm!

[@KlodFather]

@@powellmachineinc3179 - I think you should modify your warranty to a replacement only and for a limited time. Also your cams should be serial numbered. No numbers, no warranty. They have laser units that will burn the numbers into the cam and they do not come off unless ground off. If they are missing, no warranty. Check into laser etching on metal and BUY THE HOT LASER that will make an indelible mark on the cam. Put your logo and a serial number and start the sequence at some high random number. Cuts down on counterfeiting because guessing the sequence is very hard. Get nerds to help you with that. Like a HEX number 3C1F29AD in base 16. Then count up from there. You can even have the numbers count backwards with a checksum on the end to detect tampering. Good Luck and God bless. KF

[@Experiment-cp1gj]

Your responsibility ends when it leaves your shop. You check all the boxes for quality control hardness, taper etc. If you get a tattoo and don’t let it heal right and ruin it it’s your fault not the artist. Can’t believe people these days. Yep long walk off a short pier is what I would tell them. A few of the people I race with have your cams I asked one how it was and he said it’s spot on my bulid.

[@ShadowOppsRC]

Nobody wants to be an adult and accountable for stupidity these days is what the problem is and I am not talking about Powell Machine. End user probably did not break it in or use assembly lube which is stupid important to do. Especially on a none roller lifter/cam setup. Also, had no clue had to get the mesh on the cam to distributer gear. Seems to me like the customer is not a mechanic like they claim to be and has no business working on a engine!

[@NBSV1]

Mistakes happen. This isn’t a tattoo. As a business you need to at least check to see if it’s something you did. Warranties exist for a reason. In this case he checked it and it likely isn’t even one they did. Even if it is the failure isn’t on them. He did what he should have done.

[@williewages5601]

Go pound sand is the answer

[@Clownmeati8]

Seems clear enough to me.. I believe you're the kind of business man that would totally admit fault and make good on anything that was legitimately your error 👍

[@MrSparks54]

The paint dot in and of itself is a reason to tell the scammer to suck eggs. It is unfortunate that dishonest people try to take advantage of honest folks like yourself. Thanks for sharing this. Cheers from Utah

[@williamcullum6676]

Regardless of your decision to refund or not refund I would buy a cam from you.

[@powellmachineinc3179]

Ty

[@davelewis2174]

Get a custom stamp made at Buckeye engraving in kent ohio ,I use one on most everything i do

[@Anarchy-Is-Liberty]

I agree, something that can't be easily duplicated. Stamp it on everything you work on or create, then there is no doubt if it's yours!!

[@Mike62501]

Yup cheap insurance

[@TheJohndeere466]

Im just wondering if a camshaft could still be stamped after it has been hardened. As a machinist I would have my doubts.

[@davelewis2174]

i can drill &n tap them for pump drives the face or back can be stamped@@TheJohndeere466

[@setha360]

Last Summer I built a 1977 chevy 454, was losing sleep with wiping a camshaft bought a comp cams rv cam and found a stock new 1980 oem camshaft, went with the 1980 camshaft so far so good no ticking already pulled 6k trailer.

[@simonatkinson1107]

It’s good to see a professional who does his homework and knows his subject. You did a detailed examination of the cam they sent you and you spotted the little things we would never think to check. I’m sure others have said that this is possibly the cam they took out to put yours in, then sent the old one back to you expecting an instant “No questions asked” refund. My opinion is the customer gets nothing from you! Not your cam means it’s not your problem. Sadly there are some seriously dishonest characters out there who will try anything to get something for free. I will also join the other people who have suggested you start using a discrete and unique identifier mark as an extra reference point when checking returns.

[@704406bbl]

I've seen enough. Roller cams for me from here on out!

[@mitchbertone3809]

Since you asked, I will toss 2 cents in, as I did work in a automotive machine shop and also as a mechanic. 2 ways to go. Give him his money back and never sell him anything again no matter how much he begs. Or just tell him you can't do anything for him because it's not your product so not your problem. Good luck. Also, serialize each unit with the invoice # and date.

[@richardcrowell284]

When I finished my apprenticeship as an Auto Electrician in Sydney Australia, I purchased the business from my employer. We had an agreement that he would refund me for a period of six months from the date of purchase for any warranty claims. When we sold an alternator or a starter they would have a number stamped on them and entered in a book. My ex boss used to paint the fans on the alternators and the starter solenoids an orange colour.They also had a nice chrome sticker stating a guaranteed exchange unit from my previous employer put on them with a date code. Well a customer came in screaming and yelling about a starter they had just purchased a few months prior. After settling him down I said I would take a look. Sure enough it was faulty. I said that it was not one of my units as I could identify it by the sticker and the code. He then replied it was guaranteed like it said on the sticker as told to him by the wrecking yard that he purchased it from.After a bit of a conversation I told him I could do a reconditioned one for him and let him take the old one back to the wreckers for aa refund.

[@kennethward3354]

Karma will get Him ...... Proud of Powell machine..

[@MC-de6tf]

Now if you want and extra insurance for lube for the new cam and lifters then get a can or CRC dry moly lube and spray the cam and lifters down with the dry moly- wet it down good and let it dry. You may have to spray them down with brake clean first to de-grease them and then the dry moly will go into the pores of the metal and cannot be removed.

[@maddthomas]

KZbin just recommended your channel, I've subbed, love your work...I am in no way making fun you, the accent...its country as hell and I love it. If you have ever seen the movie "Mississippi Burning", thats were I live, the real place. As a boy back in the 80's and 90's I heard your kind of accent everywhere but don't anymore, I spoke like you until I joined the Army back in 1998, the 1st couple of weeks in Basic Training, it did not matter what I said I got the same response every time..."Huh? What did you say?", so I changed how I spoke so I sound more like a Yankee, don't every change.

[@powellmachineinc3179]

100%! Tyvm, we really appreciate that

[@MyRealDelusion]

No absolutely not and I know your thinking is it worth just giving it to them for your reputation and moving on but you have to draw the line somewhere. Dealing with the public is an art in itself. I love how you turn this headache into a positive thing with making this video. Genius.

[@kevin2960]

I have built about 150 motors or more with flat tappet cams and have had 2 failures. 1 was a lifter problem and the other i think was a bad core but i just bought another and cleaned the motor out

[@vikenlink]

I don’t think anyone warranties flat tappet camshaft’s after someone else installs it and it ends up wiping out a lobe . I personally think It’s out of your hands because of the fact you didn’t install it or break it in. As you said who knows what valve springs and most importantly what oil was used for break in process. Chances are the costumer used off the shelf high detergent oil with no zinc . Also was it even broken in properly. And… you didn’t even make that cam in the first place with the paint deal on it. Good idea to sell the beak in oil with the cam and lifters.

[@almolloy5817]

12:58 those camshaft fairies will get you every time! 😄

[@randywl8925]

Only sell flat tappet cams with 5 quarts of break-in oil and some moly lube. If they don't want to pay the extra, they can go elsewhere. Great video.

[@user-vn6hi2bi3g]

I will not do a flat tappet motor for this reason the metals used in foreign lifters can eat a cam in minutes. You ought to check a lobe at several places on same lobe if you detect hardness differences within the same lobe then the lobs got hot on the lift side of the lobe. I recently returned cummins mains in cummins box that said made in China stamped on the mains, I purchased clevite and my 6BT is running fine.Ray Stormont

[@Haffschlappe]

I only use King bearings

[@big_steve_o5129]

In the old days, those mass produced private label cams used to come from CMC (Camshaft Machine Company), which was owned by Crane. I didn't know that Engine Power was producing finished ground camshafts, I had thought only cores. I will say, the CWC Textron cores are not what they used to be. The Datsun L-series 4cyl/6cyl CWC cores are hot garbage and are ALWAYS soft compared to a 40-50 year old Nissan core. Also, are you saying that they ground the numbers off the back of the cam with an angle grinder or something? Or it is ground from rubbing against the cam plug? SBC?

[@tyrvidar]

lmao those damn cam shaft fairies, good stuff man.

[@topcat5988]

You will never get away from unsavory customers… Just continue your good work.

[@yafois988]

This same archaic logic that approached you in this scenario, is why I didn't go into being a garage mechanic for myself. It's magically my fault, their starter failed a week later because I worked on the air cleaner heat riser tube. That's the very thing I heard and decided, No garage business for me. . Ppl making reckless claims in various forms like this. . Never mind 'you the car Owner' are primarily responsible for "proper mechanical Main & assembly of YOUR engine. Being mechanically negligent, on fundamental assembly procedure points, or in general (as typical as usual) doesn't default make the failed parts other ppl's liability. How hard is it to put 0.25c worth of yellow Gear paint on a Dist/Cam junction 'dizzy" to verify their surface(s) contact pattern? Takes maybe 30 minutes to assess the pattern, then established what it should look like, correcting for proper fit from there. Adding to the comment, did he do a yellow paint witness mark? ? If so can he produce this image so things so can be examined, because if there is a MFG issue we all need to resolve this looking for the "ROOT Cause".. If there is a faulty mechanic that induced this That need to be realize, in ALL Fairness for both parties. Anyway, I selected a Roller cam for my AMC 401 build, thanks to the information about the FT issues, having learned from viewing discussions about the topic.. Been an interesting venture. A Bit more cost, yet has been a very good learning situation realizing plus clearing up concerns what parts to consider. I found Verifying the dizzy's wear pattern in assembly was emphasized somewhat, and IMO is overlooked way too much by builders! There is a lot going on with this aspect and I'l never look at it the same from "learning" more thx to watching your videos...

[@powellmachineinc3179]

Yep

[@lklekas]

I missed the part that they had ground the back of the journal.Who does that?And then tell you there was no paint markings,he's calling you a liar!Keep track of that guy so he can't buy anything else.

[@biophillie]

I would only warranty an article that I believe came from my shop. The video presentation of the results found, are a big deal. Well done. If my work was bad, I would consider a small additional sum, and maybe show them the corrective action I took to show that I cared for the customer. If I did not believe this was my work, they need to find another sucker. It's scary to see how dishonest and entitled a portion of our society has become. When they find a soft spot, they attack. Real builders know a quality machine shop when they find one. Maybe it's real builders that you want to be doing business with anyways. Great idea on serial/date codes. Great video. Thanks.

[@thefreedomguyuk]

Subbed ! I love your integrity !!

[@powellmachineinc3179]

Welcome aboard!

[@wdhewson]

I can tell Mr Powell is an honest man !

[@dgambrel9241]

To deal with his company is exactly what you would think. He is the kind of guy I like to deal with. A plain talk is easy understood guy.

[@fastst1]

Gotta balance incompetence vs malice on the customer side. If your flat tappet cams are $1000+ I'd hope there'd be a little warranty but if you're charging normal prices, under 300? no idea, been decades since I've bought one, last one was a crane fireball ;) I don't think anyone warranties a cam as installation can really mess it up. Now how much for a cam for my 2 stroke weedwhacker? :) Need a small PM stamp down inside the dowel bore.

[@kathyhathaway8823]

I am a retired mechanic of well over fifty years . POUND SAND VOTE

[@StuartBlake-iz6rf]

Morning mate. lots of good replies to the integrity question. My answer is to be as gentle as a dove and smart as a serpent. So, I believe you previously spoke of a "hard to find" identifier mark. Put your disclaimer in the box, noting all the "out of your control" factors with this type install, to be performed by professionals only. Any modification to the product, voids all warrenties, period. Tough being a business owner. Keep on marching the straight line.

[@timsharpe2419]

You go way above and beyond like you did on that LS head with the perfect valve job with no leaks , you did what you thought was right or best they are two different things sometimes. I know you worry about perception but don't let people take advantage of you. love the videos i just started watching about 4 months ago , we love on the porch takes and videos , a friend and I always ask each other how did we get to where we are ???

[@wrenchmanhotrods1247]

That cam has a lot of miles on it , not just brake in . They are trying to get on over on you .

[@kens.3729]

Tell them to GO Pound a Sand Box Full of Sand. Great video. 👍🙏

[@toddsculley2710]

Sorry about the luck. it’s always a crapshoot good luck is all I can say. Great video.

[@richardwhitehead4684]

I’ve never heard a good explanation of why flat tapped cams never had this problem years ago. Is it hardness, grind accuracy and precision, oil, whatever? What happened? Decades ago I replaced a handful of cams in various engines and never had an issue. No ‘break in’ either, I might add. Just coated everything in engine oil and that was that. Also changed a few flat tapped camshafts in Moto Guzzi motorcycle engines (very similar to a pushrod ‘v’ engine) and likewise had zero issues and did nothing beyond coating with oil and assembling. What is _actually_ going on?

[@btwbrand]

It's the metal and hardness applied to it. The hardness is not deep like it use to be so if wear does begin it continues. If you grind a cam past that hardness in a regular grind it's doomed. Been a quality problem for a long time now in both lifters and camshaft cores.

[@richardwhitehead4684]

@@btwbrand thanks for the reply. aren’t cams just made of cast iron, and isn’t hardening just done with heat treating? Is there ‘inferior’ cast iron? I guess it’s possible. I can see corner cutting with the heat treating, but I’m certainly no expert. Just one more thing where decent quality was something we just took for granted, but now is rare. Too bad.

[@The2008Ghost]

most off the shelf motor oils don't have enough zinc zddp additive needed for flat tappet cams...need to use additive or diesel oil

[@richardthomas1743]

Tell them to go pound sand. I was in the Automotive field for many years. There is so many things that the user can do and not do correctly on their end when it comes to most any part. Like you said with the Cam and lifters , you do not know if it was broke in correctly and if the proper oil was used. And then there is a serious question as to if the cam is from your shop. The paint dot and the badly worn distributor gears.

[@ricksmith4736]

Agreed, you do not need customers like this slimey theif.....

[@quidproquo9000]

For every 100 satisfied customers, you get that one that is trying to cheat you… keep up the good work and keep documenting stuff like this. Good work is hard to find, but sooo worth the extra expense to get the expertise, documentation is everything, you inspect and document everything before it goes out, then you are protected when you get returns.

[@prancstaman]

Start marking your work. I work for a speed shop building parts and I mark my work just for warranty purposes. Can be a suttle thing like a certain bolt or a dot in a specific place. Comes in handy and has saved my butt many times over.

[@timothybayliss6680]

They could electro pencil a little mark next to one of the journals. A "P" made of 5 dots like a constellation. I would think the dull chisel bonk marks all over the place from straiting would be a dead give away.

[@tenthousanddays2103]

If he's insistent, I would give him his money back and at the same time say "as long as you're certain you'll never need me for anything ever again".

[@davidhamilton7628]

That's what I would do to

[@shouldabeenaborted]

I can see two Karen's here

[@fishyfool]

Hell no. MAYBE replace the product, but only if he's 100% sure it's one of his. No cash back.

[@nitrosport5]

If you want a waranty. Go buy a crate motor or a new car from the dealer!

[@barnhouse6935]

I remember back in the day about 30 years ago, we used to stick engines together on the garage floor and toss in a new cam, and never do any brake in ,call it luck but we never had any issues, but being wiser in my old age l follow the brake in procedures for the cam now,just assembled a pontiac 400 and every one of the new lifter had pitting on the were surface right out of the box

[@bluemule3891]

Hey Brother, fire the customer, don't give money away. Funny I have done hundreds of flat cam replacements/builds and never ever wiped out a cam, now my engines always start within 5 revolutions and if it is heavily springed, we run the break in with 2/3 pressure, the replace the break in spring with the permanent ones. Also I read below that it appears the laser markings were shaved, that is technically a modification of the part and there should be no warrantee, if you don't have that in you warrantee docs, if not you should put it in. Anyway great vid as always.

[@rodneyf.9595]

Evening brother, great video I am also doing a cam swap today lol ❤

[@powellmachineinc3179]

Ty!

[@rodneyf.9595]

I agree with you on cams and cores , i see some that were not installed right or not broken in right i wonder if people listen to seasoned techs and machinists most of the time ? Thank you for knowledgeable information . Thanks for response earlier and i hope yalls day and week is a good one . 👍 ​@@powellmachineinc3179

[@SR-jz9wn]

Anyone have a clue why my Jeep 2.5L I4 I rebuilt would have tore apart my distributor gear on my new Melling cam after 50 miles? My thoughts are the cheap Duralast oil pump (last minute purchase) had too much resistance and shredded the gear. The oil pump gears had already started wearing on the pump's flat plate.

[@frankpeletz1818]

I know slant 6 have the same problem. Its the replacement cam gear cut and hardness. Thats why I regrind he original cam

[@TheGreenMonkey1]

I believe you. I guess I would keep grinding them…….but I would number, mark or otherwise identify what you ship ! Saw that years ago in my industry but we shipped mega volume….easier to absorb.

[@hondaelsinore1974]

I would NEVER warranty a flat tappet camshaft, or a roller! ANYTHING can fail in a high performance engine at ANY time for ANY reason beyond the machinists' control! Please don't let one turd ball ruin it for the rest of us! I plan on ordering two Mopar flat tappet camshafts from you in the very near future! I see your quality of work and appreciate what you do! And I am sure many more are like me! Thank you for these very informative videos! I have installed many new camshafts and have never lost a lobe in over 20 years. But up until I found your channel, I have always used NOS lifters from the 70's and 80's. I don't trust the new store bought lifters and probably never will again!

[@sky173]

I'd recommend a laser engraver to mark your work discretely.

[@powellmachineinc3179]

I do, it was, customer ground all info off

[@silentepsilon888]

@@powellmachineinc3179 ... might have been good to say that in the video that they ground off the numbers prior to the return

[@sky173]

@@powellmachineinc3179 ...then no return, EOD. Love the videos. Thanks for sharing.

[@donsturtevant2396]

Can you imagine then building a complete vehicle and having to warranty it against anything, everything and everyone? It’s a miracle that car companies make money

[@JR-xw5dk]

I would charge him for your time. We had a company file a claim on two trailer loads of chairs. Some did not even have any stain or any coating at all. The boss agreed to the claim and would take the amount of the claim off invoices. Two months or so later he increased the prices to cover the claim. You do have skills beyond so many. We have so many in this county without any skill and have a degree that is worthless. I am glad I got a degree, without it it would have been impossible to hold a job. Today your type of skills is what we are missing. Thank you for sharing I gain so much knowledge from people like you. It is a good distraction for my chronic pain I have. Take care of your eyes, ears and back. Maybe some of your viewers will give you some floor mats if you need them. Good shoes are priceless. Take care.

[@johnknoefler]

I worked in a cam shop brazing a hard metal onto the lines but know very little about cams beyond my job. Anyway, I'd be telling them to go pound sand. Someone somewhere switched out your cam for an inferior defective product. You pretty much proved your point in the video.

[@keith6872]

Pound sand! You sound very believable. I once had a neighbor than got a free chainsaw from Sears because of crap like this. Sears is no longer in business around here.

[@stevenrochelle2238]

a lot of people ripped off Sears and dont even realize they did it. Is it sears fault for giving free tool exchanges or is it their fault for taking advantage of it?