Was Alderaan a Legitimate Military Target?

[@TetsuShima]

*Fun fact:* Years after the destruction of Alderaan, Leia's twin children went to the remains of the planet and rescued a small part of the core to give it to their mother as a birthday gift, which made her cry. It was a very emotional moment

[@mikewaterfield3599]

According to Disney, that did not happen….. but then again according to Disney light sabers are colored by mood and the force is female.

[@generaljimmies3429]

Children? I'm assuming you're talking about Jacen and Jaina from Legends(True Canon)

[@mikewaterfield3599]

@@generaljimmies3429 I would assume he is. Ya know the story Disney could have used that would have given them a one armed “strong female character” who could have been the tent pole of a sequel trilogy.

[@occam7382]

@@mikewaterfield3599, or you know, use George Lucas' Sequel treatments.

[@TheyCallMeCarg]

That's not possible. If you show an Alderaanian a piece of their homeworld, especially a glowy green bit, the radiation can kill them. Oh wait, that's something else...

[@TetsuShima]

The most disturbing thing about Alderaan's destruction is that, even decades after the tragedy, the horrible agonizing screams of its inhabitants were still felt through the Force, as Luke's apprentice Tenel Ka said when she got close to its remains

[@TetsuShima]

@thegloryofromeiseternal Not really. They are basically marks, like the permanent shadows the victims of Hiroshima left during the atomic bombing

[@Travis_Hackney]

@thegloryofromeiseternal No, but even non-force sensitives would feel uneasy in the immediate vicinity and the shock of that experience to their midichlorians could activate some latent abilities.

[@TetsuShima]

@thegloryofromeiseternal No, only Force users, the ones considerable affine to nature, can feel them

[@GGBlaster]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@thegloryofromeiseternal probably not. The phenomenon (called a wound in the Force) sends ripples through the Force, and even Jedi can’t feel it unless they are adept in the Force, in close proximity to where it happened, or have a deep, natural Force connection to the place or people destroyed.

[@LetsHavePun]

Wounds in the force can be scary if they manifest within people, like Darth Nihilus.

[@TetsuShima]

Killiks after coming out of their exile: "Man, cannot believe we literaly spent 35.000 thousands of years completely isolated from the galaxy. How's Alderaan, by the way? Hope our home planet is still going fine even after we left it!" Leia: "...You'd better take a seat"

[@jeremyallen5974]

Killiks: wait, why are you giving us that look? Some idiot didn't blow it up, did they?

[@patriot17764th]

Im sure that's a eventful meeting.

[@MrSHADOWANGEL999]

A legitimate military target it may have been, but the sheer damage it did outwayed the pros of destroying it

[@myrrthegravitationallyadep741]

Alderaan was a political and economic target, not a military one. What Tarkin gained was a major hit to the Rebellions manpower and bankroll. In Tarkins eyes the combo made Alderaan an ideal target, but even his conversation with Leia before the destruction showed us that he didn’t see the world as military, but as a painful zit on the ass of the empire

[@russellharrell2747]

The complete destruction of a planet and its population is a war crime no matter how you try to spin it. Other similar planets had been occupied by imperial forces, like Raltiir in the original radio drama. Raltiir went from having an active rebel movement to needing outside support for food and supplies overnight. Such occupations not only hampered the rebel cells on those worlds but also drew rebel efforts to free those worlds instead of hampering the imperial war machine by attacking vital imperial facilities. With the destruction of Alderaan following the disbanding of the Senate you’ve got thousands of Star systems pledging support to the rebels, especially after the disastrous defeat of the Empire at Yavin. That certainly outweighed any possible advantage of wiping out one planet supporting the rebellion while ignoring the fatal flaw In your ultimate super weapon battle station.

[@dr0g_Oakblood]

It also throws everything away that Palpatine tried to build, the whole propaganda piece that the general populace was fed during the creation of the Empire was “We will make a safe and secure society, we will protect you”. Destroying one of the oldest cultural centers of the Galaxy, and an inner rim planet at that, told countless other worlds that “we don’t care about protecting you, we will kill anyone if it suits us”. It basically told the general populace that “no, you’re not safe from the face eating tiger”, and quite importantly, it ruffled the feathers of the ruling elite of the galaxy (rich inner rim worlds) that the new Imperial Gov’t wasn’t just going to bully the Mid Rim and Outer Rim to favor the Inner Rim, so their previous status quo was threatened, so of course even many wealthy systems would flock to restore the Republic which had kept a nice cushy status quo for the Inner Rim elites.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

Agreed, even if Alderan had been in open rebellion destroying it like that is an inexcusable, unjustifiable war crime.

[@joshuawells835]

Now I'm wondering what if rather than the entire planet, Tarkin ordered a single-reactor ignition that destroyed the capital city and with it the House of Organa? Who would then ascend the Alderaanian throne? Would the galaxy have reacted the same way or differently?

[@Gary_The_Metro]

The same way? obviously not. There is obviously a difference between destroying a single city (very bad) or an ENTIRE PLANET (VERY VERY BAD) but that's still a massively idiotic action. You're still murdering in the most optimistic numbers, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands people who are entirely on your side. To kill... maybe 100 that aren't? If even that.

[@paulrasmussen8953]

Single reactor would devastate the planet

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@paulrasmussen8953 Yes but the death star did have vearus power setting so it likely had one to level a city.

[@paulrasmussen8953]

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough rougue obe showed single reactor fire. Tgat was jedha

[@russellharrell2747]

Single reactor firing was the lowest setting and that causes destruction many times greater than what is estimated for an eruption of the Yellowstone shield volcano, which would devastate half the planet and cause a nuclear winter scenario. Firing on Jheda showed chunks of the crust flying into orbit, indicating debris from the blast likely falling back and covering the entire planet. The people who had no time to evacuate that planet definitely all died.

[@biggles1852]

Another fantastic analysis. I can't help but compare the effects of destroying Alderaan with the effects of destroying Hosnian Prime; it shows the effect of great writing vs. not-so-great that the destruction of Alderaan is still a major moment in SW lore and fan discussion.

[@chengzhou8711]

I believe that during episode four, the Empire was at the height of their derangement (the scramble to recover the Plans of The Death Star), and they had only just topped the previous height of their derangement (building the Death Star

[@dwnkaomwn3953]

@thegloryofromeiseternal Yeah, like the Dark Trooper and Tie Fighter projects. Those projects would've yielded better results.

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

@@dwnkaomwn3953 I think he was refering to Grand Admiral Thrawn's T.I.E. Defender program. That and building more of those heavily armed light cruiser variant of the ISD.

[@rayswiatek5948]

​@@STSWB5SG1FANHe wasn't a character in any of the films . He couldn't have any plans.

[@yeenmachine206]

​@thegloryofromeiseternal how many super star destroyers could the Empire have built for the cost of the Death Star? Those would have been a much better use of resources, still more intimidating than a standard star destroyer, and would have been able to cover more worlds at once

[@mikewaterfield3599]

The planet itself was not a military target, Organa most definitely was. If nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was questionable what would the complete destruction of the Japanese archipelago be? Its true many on Alderan were either in or sympathetic to the rebellion. Completely destroying the whole planet does not even carry a pretense of limited collateral damage much less an actual effort at it.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

They needed to be sure and they used minimum force necessary to confirm they had succeeded. Who are we to question their military tactics? (This isn’t sarcasm, more devil’s advocate and typical explanation given by those that do such things.)

[@Joe-Przybranowski]

Limiting collateral damage isn't how you win wars. It's why the us doesn't win them anymore.

[@paulrasmussen8953]

The nuking was not a questionable choice. Less then a million died. If a traditional invasion there would be millions. We made so many purple hearts for that invasion we have yet to run out nearly a century later

[@MonkeyJedi99]

@@paulrasmussen8953 Blowing up Alderaan is like if (assuming the US had the ability in 1945) Truman decided to sink the entire nation of Japan under the ocean waves. Without warning.

[@paulrasmussen8953]

@MonkeyJedi99 but we didn't even with the bombs they gave one last chance to surrender

[@Alte.Kameraden]

Being the standard Uniform used by the Rebel Alliance was literally from Alderaan during the original film, and Rogue One. I'd say yes. Many of the ships, personnel and equipment were supplied by Alderaan in one way or another.

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

I always assumed that the reason Tarkin destroy Alderaan is to punished Princess Leia for her defiance.

[@moniXluv]

During the Clone Wars, why weren’t Jedi trained in the use of projectile weaponry? Their main targets were Droids, not living beings.

[@donovanbradford8231]

Unfortunately the building of the Death Star is the absolute extreme craziness that the Sith can possess and when it came to the Imperial Higher like Tarken they were equally as crazy be simply put Vader and Monty were the only ones either not will to use the Death Star or thought this will increase the resolve of the Rebellion. Now I can understand the thought process of Tarkin even before the expansion of the Star Wars Lore. Tarkin knew Princess Liea was apart of the Rebel Alliance by her capture on the ship that stole the Death Star plans and being caught shooting Imperial Stormtroopers only confirmed her true feelings. But whether Tarkin believed Liea that Alderaan had no weapons or he thought if one member of the royal family supports the Rebellion what are the chances the whole royal family does and given the loyalty of the people of Alderaan to the royal family how much of the actual populace supports the Rebellion. It was at that point Tarkin's plan was two fold destroy one of the founders of the Rebellion and on e the knew the location of the Rebel base and its forces they would be able to truly crush the Rebellion by first destroying its head the its military. So whether or Alderaan had weapons or not in Tarkins twisted way you can follow his logic but it's still has more holes than a sinking ship because Tarkin failed to realize the backlash of such an action which is you are now tyrants and instead of a few standing against you, you may get an entire galaxy knocking on your door.

[@cameronhermann9400]

Also didn’t consider that Leia wouldn’t lie about the Rebels location, thus by destroying Alderan he lost a good blackmailing tool against her

[@gumdeo]

The rebels still looked to be quite small at the battle of Hoth.

[@gooddog2001]

Palpatine Ordered Tarkin to destroy a planet as a warning. But he didn't tell him which one to destroy. So when Palpatine heard what he did he was upset with him.

[@hansmerker5611]

I suggest videos on: Mon Calamari cruisers advantages and history Z-6 rotary blaster E-11 blaster Reconfigurable blasters

[@Pseudowolf]

In Legends, Tarkin is the only Imperial who has Vader's respect. That should tell you a lot about the type of person he is.

[@shadewolf0075]

However even Vader admits not even he would have thought about destroying Alderaan

[@lerneanlion]

Assuming one of the rebel cells possessed something that can perform the galactic-wide Rumbling, how will the Empire responded once it was unleashed? I mean, it is the complete destruction of all lifeforms in the galaxy after all and all of their weapons are most likely useless against it, so what can they do?

[@B.matrix]

Love the thought exercise, hoping for more topics like this!

[@mattstorm360]

Here's a question. Would Lothal be a legitimate military target? 1BBY, Lothal was home to extensive Imperial industrial production. A prototype tie fighter was being manufactured there along with the various vehicles the rest of the empire uses, mining had replaced farming as the dominate industry of the planet, and it was more or less home to the imperial 7th fleet. The planet of course had a history with rebels ranging from stolen supplies, sabotage, attacks on imperial forces, and illegal mining operations using inflatable pigs. But by 1BBY most of those problems had been solved. You still had bombings but that would be rooted out eventually. Until a fleet of X-Wings appear in the space above and rebels blew up the AA guns on the ground did they have a new problem. But thanks to the tactics employed by Grand Admiral Thrawn those X-Wings were destroyed and because of the efforts of Imperial ground forces the rebel leader Hera Syndulla was captured. Things seemed to be looking up but during Hera's daring escape, the fuel depot was destroyed halting production of the TIE Defender. Then a raid on the rebel's base ended in failure when the soldiers were attacked by giant wolves and the capture of Governor Pryce who was forced to help the rebels infiltrate the imperial complex allowing them to carry out their plan to recall all imperial forces to the complex, use the landing thrusters to launch the complex out of the city, and blow it up over the sea killing scores of imperial officers, workers, and cadets. Fortunately grand Admiral Thrawn was there to save all those innocent people by parking his star destroyer over the complex preventing the launch and after some aggressive negotiations using the classic Base Delta Zero tatic convinced one of the terrorists leaders to come to his flag ship, the Chimera. From there i assume an attempt was made by Palpatine himself to convince them to stop this senseless fighting only to be rejected. After that, the fleet above lothal was wiped out before the culprits, giant space whales, came down to capture the Chimera and take both Jaba the hut and Grand Admiral Thrawn into hyperspace to some unknown location. This allowed the rebels to finish their plan, send the imperial complex on its way and wipe out 99% of the imperial forces on the ground. Any survivors would be rounded up by the civilian population who are not very happy to have experienced a Base Delta Zero. Now think about this for a second. A small group of terrorists just devastated your fleet above using space whales, devastated your forces on the ground, destroyed the head quarters of your imperial occupation, and disappeared the grand admiral of your navy using those same space whales. Any remaining forces on the ground have been captured by the citizens who are now complicit in the open rebellion of the planet. That sounds like a legitimate military target. Seeing as Tarkin was using the threat to destroy Alderaan as a way to get Leia to give up the rebals' secret base he could still use Lothal. A way to say, first Lothal next Alderaan. But if she wants to play the game of "i'm just a senator on a diplomatic mission" then she should be okay with Lothal blowing up. Leia had her ships stolen by those terrorists who then took over the planet so she wouldn't mind seeing that planet blow up...

[@russellharrell2747]

I’m pretty sure Leia’s cover was blown well before being taken to see Tarkin, so pretending that she had been an innocent victim would be pointless. Tarkin was asking her directly to name a system with an active but unknown rebel base. Lothal was a potentially well known rebel planet, one that was probably near the top (if not at the top) of the list of planets to pay a visit to with the Death Star, so probably not one Leia would offer that would appease Tarkin’s request.

[@noiwonttellyoumyname.4385]

Lothal would have been a legitimate target if the rebels had been a legitimate military fighting a war rather than criminals and terrorists.

[@russellharrell2747]

@@noiwonttellyoumyname.4385 Lothal was too remote to make an effective demonstration. After all it was one of the Empire’s dirty little secrets before they lost control of it so the rest of the galaxy barely knew it existed. The same with Dantooine which seemed not too dissimilar to Lothal in geography, climate and population. Leia’s choice was to name an abandoned and secret rebel base rather than the known and active one, while never betraying the secret and active main base.

[@noiwonttellyoumyname.4385]

@@russellharrell2747 this, again, just goes to show the Rebels for the terrorists and criminals they were: terrorists worry about the publicity value of their attacks; a serious military force just goes about the business of destroying an enemy's production capacity wherever possible.

[@russellharrell2747]

@@noiwonttellyoumyname.4385 that goes against the Tarkin doctrine and everything legends and canon says about the development, deployment and purpose behind the empire’s war machine and military and political practices. The Empire intended the Death Star(s) as the ultimate deterrent that would cow all systems into submission, while the 10,000s of ISDs, millions of TIE fighters and likely billions of troops would be used to overwhelm any threat in the galaxy before after the last remnants of democracy were swept away and public opinion was no longer considered to be important. For the majority of time it existed the Empire did indeed care about and attempt to influence public opinion and the perception of the Empire as just and protective to loyalist systems while slowly but surely tightening the grip on control of all sectors of galactic life.

[@t1m3f0x]

Honestly there should have been a system in place to ensure that the super laser could only be fired if the emperor gave authorization to fire, like how in the US the use of nuclear weapons has to be authorized by the President via the nuclear launch codes.

[@cliphound80]

Always wondered what the last seconds on Alderaan would be like. What was going through Bail Organa’s mind in those last moments as the Death Star entered orbit? It’s something I ponder on ❤️🤔

[@sundragon7703]

I would not classify Alderaan a legitimate military target. The planet was the focal point of a massive emotional response mixed with Iron Man's Tony Stark demonstration pitch for the Jericho missile. Tarkin did because he could. Earth's history is full of people or armies or counties that do because they can. Sometimes with a wonder weapon...sometimes with brute force.

[@Charlie94781]

Bail Organa should have been arrested by droidekas

[@seanbigay1042]

Dude, come on, even granting the existence of a secret weapons cache on Alderaan, vaporizing the entire planet is like getting rid of a beehive by slagging the whole city it's in!

[@brentpieczynski]

To have treated a difficulty with a planetary leadership as an internal security matter would have promoted public support for the Empire.

[@TetsuShima]

10:15 For those who wonder, Raith Sienar had his only important role in the "Rogue Planet" novel, in which he and a young Tarkin invade the living planet Zonama Sekott 3 years after the Phantom Menace

[@enclaveherewhyisntyourvide3089]

To be fair he has something of a semi-important role in Plagueis, though not appearing directly.

[@tristankawatsuma8962]

Say Generation Tech, how about a video asking what would happen if to the Clone Troopers if the Jedi Order exposed Order 66 and killed Palpatine, because the answer seems like it would be depressing. I mean, if the Republic did believe the Jedi, how much would the reputation of the clones be damaged even after the inhibitor chips were removed? Would the citizens lose all trust in them and view them as being no different than battle droids? Would the Republic kick Kamino out and banish the Clones there?

[@samueldimmock694]

That depends a bit on whether the information got out to the general public, and if so, how quickly and with what kind of framing. If people were told that Palpatine had tried to control the clone army using mind control chips, but that a few brave clones had overcome these chips and exposed the conspiracy, I don't think it would cause much harm to the clones. If people were told that the clones were basically living droids designed to destroy the Republic, then it would be very bad for the clones.

[@Arseguardian]

I often feel like people don't understand just how insane it is to destroy an entire planet, just to take out a military faction on said planet.. Like imagine being at war with England, but you just.. Nuke all of earth to make sure none of them stays alive. Absolutely batshit crazy. But for the Empire, an incredible message to send to their foes and the Republic. The one thing my brain is currently trying to figure out is how different the story would have been, if it was Obi-Wan that died to Maul and Qui-Gon that killed him and got to leave with Anakin as his new Padawan..

[@FriedSesame]

My favorite character is literally Bail Organa. It's a shame he died after all those years of good work, if the jedi council had gotten rid of Palpatine, he would've ended up as chancellor. :]

[@Haegemon]

According to the Empire it was a necessary target for self-defense. Rebels attacked Imperial facilities and personel. They were able to plan and execute such a horrific attacks because their Alderani hosts had given them safe heaven.

[@parzival_7157]

“would you prefer another target? a military target? then name the system” tarkin clearly didn’t believe it was a military target

[@mattthemouse1]

A disturbing amount of actions in Nazi Germany were done ‘in Hitlers (Fuehers) name’. Hitler didn’t directly order those actions, but he also didn’t punish those who did so without authorization

[@philippeamon7271]

I don't think Wilhuff Tarkin was the sort to get toddler-upset with an enemy POW being uncooperative, he seems too experienced and professional. The destruction of Alderaan must have been on the Imperial wishlist for quite a while - it was perhaps what motivated the construction of the Death Star. And they knew what Bail Organa was up to, on the not-very sly, but the attention he had around his person, the reason why he could rally support, made it a really bad look to have an "accident" happen to him, unlike e.g. Senator Padmè, and Mon Mothma. But 15% of Alderaan's actual gross product was directly from corruption, mainly a little taxation/bribery side-hustle going on with their hyperspace-hub. And I believe, that they eventually quietly annexed it, for historical property reasons. Which meant, they could close the hub gateway, the second the first Imperial Star Destroyer entered Alderaanian space, so it would take weeks or months for support blockade and invasion forces to arrive. That model was inspirational to other small powers in the galaxy, who wanted money and siege defences. All in all, Alderaan was always a thorn in the Empire's side.

[@Carstuff111]

The destruction of Alderaan was absolutely stupid, but so was the Sith plan from the start. They want all the power they can get, without realizing power means nothing when you run things so half-assed. Palpatine cared nothing about the people around him, Darth Vader, even before his defeat at the hands of Kenobi, was just another pawn. If Vader had died, Palpatine would not have cared and likely would have found someone else to take his place in just a few weeks at most. The only reason he kept Vader alive in the suite was because of the pure intimidation factor Vader presented and because it was punishment for failing. For all the intelligence of Palpatine to play the galaxy like a fiddle early on, his stupidity slipped out as he got comfy in his roll as emperor and just let the kids run rampant with their big, new toys. Tarkin was not a military genius, he was just an A-hole that took control of the most powerful weapon in the empire, and destroyed a planet because he thought it was fun to watch Leia squirm. It was really that simple. He was going to destroy Alderaan at some point anyway, and likely even more planets if he and the Death Star had survived. The entire Empire was run by idiots....And its funny how many governments are run by morons in real life too.......

[@matthewjungmann12]

Blowing up Alderaan felt like the beginning of the end for the Empire. Until it happened, they were a stable if overzealous government. They were brutal and apathetic, yes, but they were the resolution to the Separatists and the Clone Wars, and the positive sentiment for the end of the Clone Wars would have remained for a while longer. They were tolerable, and not worth the trouble to overthrow. After it happened, everybody understood that the Empire couldn't be left to stand as it was. After all, what if they were next?

[@MalzraAirwynn]

I think it was the one two punch of both destroying Alderaan but also losing the Death Star shortly thereafter. It was a worst case scenario, showing that the Empire WOULD blow up entire planets and 'you could be next' while also simultaneously showing the Empire wasn't invincible and stripping it of that new weapon. So better to to act now before they build another one.

[@matthewjungmann12]

@@MalzraAirwynn very unfortunate of them to demonstrate how evil they are, then immediately lose the very thing they intend to use to keep everyone in line.

[@daanvos194]

the biggest fault palpetine made was having tarking as second in comand

[@Dazzle_Novak_]

You know what baffles me? That some people trying to justify this not as a mental gymnastics but as a military statement, and are unironically politically view themselves as empire loyalists. I think we accidentally let warhammer fans into our fandom. How do we purge them?

[@markwells3289]

It's the portion of this channel's subscribers who have bought into the American narrative of when/what/how is the appropriate time for military force. We're an extraordinarily war-like country/culture, but because we wrap it up in nebulous terms like 'freedom' and 'terrorism', that we can make practically any war, police action, or random bombing of civilians seem like the moral thing to do in a situation.

[@robertnelson9599]

Warhammer fans are like Orks, we never go away forever. :)

[@jedijournal9159]

We could try using Order 66 again, or summon Darth Nihilus to do his thing, or call upon any of the super weapons from legends. Or even just make a short film with Rey, that'll scare them away from our franchise lol

[@clpfox470]

Long Live The Empire

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@markwells3289the Empire is modeled loosely on the United States, not a surprise.

[@theAverageJoe25]

Due to their aid and foundation of the rebellion I think it’s fair to consider alderan or at least its leadership a military target however the proper way to deal with that was likely to kill or imprison the Organa family

[@justinatwood8728]

it makes you wonder if any kind of energy weapon could actually blow apart a planet like that or if it would just make it kinda melty.

[@barbiquearea]

In legends, Palpatine did express his grief for the loss of Alderaan to the public and blamed the whole thing on Tarkin for being a rogue actor. He gave his condolences to any Alderaan natives who were off world and offered his own personal planet of Byss as a new home for them to live. However this wasn't by any means an altruistic act as on Byss these poor Alderaanians had their life forces sucked out by Palpatine and his dark side acolytes.

[@tlx4122]

Just giving them the planet would have been a great PR move, but no, he had to suck the force out of them. Classic Palpatine😂

[@michelled.4874]

Just more pro-Jedi propaganda kool-aid lies. Ugh...

[@Lonovavir]

From Tarkin, if not the Empires POV yes, Alderaan was an "example" not to defy the Capitol.... Coruscant. In practical terms no, even if rebels were on Alderaan destroying a planet just motivates more people to rebel. Tarkin brought a machine gun to a knife fight.

[@tenn_ore]

I say yes, and here's why: The sole purpose of the Death Star was to instill fear. The fact that the Rebel Alliance had begun to operate at the level they were demonstrated that there was not enough fear to keep the systems in line. It would seem that the Imperials planned to use the Death Star's capability to destroy an entire planet at least once to ensure that they not only could, but would do so. Tarkin figured he had one shot at being allowed to destroy one planet. What better one to pick? Bail Organa and his outfit would also be destroyed, and the fact that at that very moment he could use it to intimidate Princess Leia into giving up the plans was just the cherry on top. At that point he may have legitimately thought the Rebel HQ was there.

[@russellharrell2747]

There’s no way the empire thought the main rebel base was on a populated planet in an inner system. Leia being a rebel did implicate her father and other former senators that had showed support for the rebellion as actual rebels but that could not excuse the genocidal destruction of Alderaan. Even the proven existence of a military base on Alderaan would not have justified the complete destruction of the world. Even Base Delta Zero is unjustified in a civilized galactic society

[@dccherrytrees7539]

If I recall, the alliance to restore the republic had a year, or so prior to the destruction of Alderaan, formerly declared war on Palpatine in particular, and the institution of the Galactic Empire in general, so these two entities were in a state of war. Considering the significant contribution of Alderaan to the Rebel Alliance it represented a major economic target, while we can definitely call Alderaan's destruction overkill, I reckon the Empire desired to set a precedent, and attempted a greater than proportional response to the threat in an attempt to cow the general threat, and perhaps prevent the expansion of a nascent conflict, in hindsight we call it a brash action, but if the Death Star had survived the battle of Yavin it may have had the intended effect. Maybe we shouldn't call it legitimate, but it was, to a degree, a military target.

[@russellharrell2747]

Galen Erso destroyed Alderaan. His message to the rebels nearly wiped them out in just a couple of days. If it wasn’t for a force sensitive pilot during the battle of Yavin Galen’s intentional weakness would have never been successfully exploited. He ensured that the Empire would destroy at least a couple worlds before anyone had a tiny chance of destroying the super weapon.

[@colbychavez3550]

I would love a movie that covered the last 24h on Alderaan called Protocol 13.

[@TheLeatheryman]

Dantooine was too remote to make an effective demonstration

[@comentedonakeyboard]

There was a Factory for Aircraft Engines in Coventry

[@danicalifornia505]

Did Bail Organa ever have one on ones with Papa Palpatine?

[@Ocelot812010]

Legitimate goes hand in hand with words like "perspective" and "optics". I call forth the assembly held at the Death Stat Battle Station "before" the destruction of the planet. You have different options being tossed back and forth and one officer goes on about having "The most destructive weapon in the universe... I suggest we use it." If you notice Tarkin was intrigued by the suggestion. Perhaps the hot head has a good point... Objectively from the sidelines and with our own eyes, no it wasn't a legitimate target... But to Tarkin and several others, yeah it was. Try relating the Death Star to something a bit more practical and real in our own history, the atomic bombs dropped on Heroshima and Nagasaki. Not a perfect comparison, I know, but close enough. There are those who just revel in absolute destruction, win at any cost, we got a new big scary toy Let's use it... And then there are those who don't really want to use it but would rather have a swift answer to a complicated situation as opposed to a drawn out expensive conflict that costs more lives and resources than you know you can afford. Ultimately... It comes down to a what if scenario. What if the Death Star wasn't destroyed at the battle of Yavin? What if the Death Star Destroyed the Rebel Moon but the Rebels escaped? Earth has had nuclear weapons for many decades and some would argue that the threat of mutually assured destruction in nuclear fire is one of, if not the main reason there has been a trend of "peace" ever since World War 2. Some people would scoff at such a notion of "peace" given the amount of wars there have been but when you compare all conflicts since WW2 you would definitely see that the amount of death and destruction due to a war is nothing by comparison to the WW2 conflict. So... Legitimate in the eyes of most who see a degree in honour and integrity in warfare? No, not at all. Legitimate in the eyes of those who accept that peace can only be achieved by dictatorship and fear? Yeah... Most likely.

[@orokusaki1243]

As a "military target", Alderaan would at least be in the supply chain (equipment, aid, and personnel) for the Rebel Alliance, but Tarkin even says to Leia to "name a military target" if she wanted Alderaan to be spared. This apparently means the Imperial intel had some uncertainty in it. She gives up Dantooine, but still Tarkin has Alderaan destroyed. It is later revealed that Dantooine was long abandoned. His coercion was met by her deception, and neither wavered. His lie was met by her lie, the only gain by the Empire was animosity, which conversely was sympathy for the Rebellion. From a story perspective, there was no other way to tell it that could properly depict the immense threat and stakes involved. Leia knew that the Rebellion was the only real chance to overthrow the Empire. In a galaxy with a billion-billion systems: The destruction of Alderaan may have inspired fear that the same would happen elsewhere, however Alderaan became a martyr, and the clarion call to action against this evil Empire of Palpatine was made. "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

[@roguerifter9724]

Tarkin didn't think so and he was the person who ordered the attack. When Leia protests his reply isn't disagreeing with her claim that its not a military target. Instead he says if you want us to hit a military target tell me where the rebel base is.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

The people of Alderaan were being used as human shields and because Bail Organa was there it was a rebel command and control center. This is the logic being used right now in a war going on right now.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Yeah that's pretty insane and basically implies the only thing the Empire could do is commit complete genocide.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@SuperPal-tr3go oh, not complete, it’s just one planet and there are so many, can’t even really call it genocide.

[@conservativedemocracyenjoyer]

​@@Justanotherconsumer You are straight up just wrong. gen·o·cide noun the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. "a campaign of genocide"

[@aaronslater470]

I think people should look at what type of target Aldeeran is. Genocide is about wealth redistribution. By removing Aldeeran the rebels MI-Complex took a total loss. While imperial loyalist would soak up those lucrative trade routes. Planets such as Kuat and Byss gained enormously from Aldeeran's demise

[@russellharrell2747]

But Alderaan was peaceful, they had no weapons! It’s actually not clear how well armed the rebels were by ‘stealing’ from Alderaan, but it seems most of their Military strength came from old republic decommissioned hardware abs stolen imperial assets. Certainly Alderaan provided financial backing to the rebellion, or at least the cells that had direct ties to the Royal Family. I’m not sure how those other worlds benefited from Alderaan’s absence in the galaxy, since Kuat was living high on the hog from Imperial naval contracts that needed a well-enough funded rebellion to justify all those ship orders. But then by the time Alderaan was destroyed the Senate had been dissolved and the Emperor could do whatever he wanted as far as military spending. Previously if their had not been a rebellion, surely the empire would have needed to create one for the more hawkish star systems to justify the continued military build up.

[@itsmike2736]

Yes, next question

[@Stratonetic]

I would like to just remind everyone that the British prime minister Churchill friendly fired French fleets in order to deny Germany the potential assets.

[@jeffpeltier6570]

if i remember right did Organa run against Palpatine before the clone wars. Also Organa was also behind the republic military oversight so he had an idea of how the empire works. He also to me from the clone wars was seen as the most legitimate opposition to Palpatine. Idk but if he was in charge of the rebellion and creating the new republic I feel like the empire would have struggled a lot more and the new republic would have not been so weak. That just me.

[@yourstruly4817]

"This is how you make jam?" "No, this is how you play God."

[@d.o.a7552]

The Empire be like the Alderanans set up a bunker deep within the core of the planet we had to use the deathstar there were no other options.

[@kobblestonemc]

I feel like the same people who think Alderaan was a military target think that Dresden was a military target, and the level of force used against each was justified.

[@yournotjimmy]

There is an Star Wars Rebels war episode dedicated to how Alderaan Via proxy Leia (whom is apart of the planets ruling family and planets ambassador) was supplying the Rebel War effort by actively engaging in supplying the Rebels ships to be armed to harm the citizens of the Empire. By our worlds standards the ruling body of Government (the Empire in this instance) would class the Rebels their funding and suppliers are a Terrorist State and have it labeled for elimination, break a law you will be punished, and clearly stated the episode it was an "ongoing issue" as why the ships were clamped in this said episode are proof of this argument as well as many other clear violations of the Empires Anti-Rebel Campaign Remember the Empire is the Law in this instance and was voted in by Law. Even in the Star Wars The Sith and Jedi just are Religions therefore that cannot used an influence in the idea of this argument to factor as is not a be counted as that would be a law broken in Star Wars. Do i agree that Alderaan was a Target: Yes the Empire (Government) Had Right and reason to attack a suppler of military aid to their Terrorist Threat (Rebels) Do i agree the way the Threat was handed correct: No, there is no gain in total destruction *Glassing a City would of been a better move tactically*

[@theromanorder]

Day 334 PLEASE DO MORE TACTICS AND STRUCTURES LIKE THE CIS NAVY STRUCTURE AND RANKS

[@gabrieldjatienza6971]

There are still Alderaanians (mostly humans) who were away from their home world, and majority of survivors are with the Alliance.

[@Tony-rn5fm]

it was the hubris of tarkin's ego

[@reedeux7818]

Any target can be a military target, if a leader deems it to be. That's why war is hell.

[@williamdaviddiazcuchimaque7511]

Tarkin: donde esta la base rebelde Leia:geonosis Credits

[@El-Hugger]

Maravillosa jugada .png

[@MrIan1086]

Even Tarkin acknowledged it wasn't a military target. He asked Leia to name another system.

[@ravanpee1325]

Of course the Rebels hide behind civilians

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

No they don't. Literally all their rebel bases were in the middle of nowhere. Yavin 4 and Hoth.

[@ravanpee1325]

@@SuperPal-tr3go Yes, but Bail Organa and Mon Mothma organized the whole chaos and lived peacefully on the core world

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

@@ravanpee1325 So you arrest them. You don't blow up an entire planet that hasn't actually been fortified into a base. The Empire didn't even encounter a fleet when they reached Alderaaan. This would be like Putin nuking all of Western Europe because Zelenskyy he's gone there. Actually it's even worse because Western Europe would actually be able to mount a defense while Alderaaan might not.

[@jeremyallen5974]

But then went forward with the planet's destruction anyway just to show how much of a fucking dick he was

[@Tony-rn5fm]

i would make the argument that using a single reactor ignition firing would be justified, HOWEVER destroying the entire planet is not justified under any circumstances.........

[@dstovell]

Collective punishment is ALWAYS wrong.

[@vikingsword3485]

Not always. Do you have any idea it is to send your men into area to sort out targets from non targets.

[@dstovell]

@@vikingsword3485 you don't get to commit war crimes just because your job is hard. buck up 🤣

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@dstovellunless you have good political cover and support.

[@vikingsword3485]

@@dstovellDid you tell that to Japan before nuking them?

[@Canes2311]

Big facts@@dstovell

[@corujariousa]

Destroying a planet is beyond evil it is also insanely irresponsible, since that would affect the entire gravitational equilibrium of that solar system and the ripple effects would be difficult to predict. It is likely that light speed navigation would also be affected. It seems writers could have done better.

[@Reoh0z]

Enter the Imperial Propagandists, the true power of the Empire.

[@marcelgrabowski5939]

Honestly I think I will write a fanfic with Palpatine losing his connection to the force because of some Plaguies contingency and then proceeding to disasemble republic and proclaim the empire anyway, and actually having better ridance overall because he actually focuses on the institution instead of research on ancient sith powers.

[@WarpstormChronicles]

I think in Star Wars terms is comparable to using nuclear weapons.

[@glamourweaver]

“These were hands of the Emperor so to speak” *distant angry Mara Jade noises*

[@jeffbartlett8565]

Your talking about an Empire that destroy legacy planets for their rare elements to build the death star

[@ravanpee1325]

Yes, of course. Look at Yemen today and how the US and the Saudis react

[@ChocolateBadness]

Every word out of Leia's mouth from the moment she was captured was a lie. She even lied about Dantooine. Worse, the imperials knew she was lying the entire time. They gave her every opportunity to be truthful and she took the opportunity to lie some more. If she'd lie about that much, there's no reason to think she's not lying about Alderaan.

[@mysterythekitsune2988]

Yeah I can still see Takin if he was told it was on Yavian 4 decided to blow up her home world anyway. That would be worse because it show the empire will blow up planet's even if rebel base planets are exposes just to drive fear.

[@wedgeantillies66]

Destruction of Alderaan was a war crime, pure and simple and could never be excused as a legitimate act of war. Was as the above video mentions the most stupid move the empire, ever made, leading to massive defections and the rebel becoming a true threat to the empire as a direct consequence of it and setting in motion the first snowball, that would with events over four years grow into the avalanche that would defeat the empire at Endor

[@strellnakov]

When you’re fighting an insurgency hiding behind civilians; collateral damage is to be expected.

[@conservativedemocracyenjoyer]

That's like saying you executed an entire town to kill a single spy

[@jyralnadreth4442]

Just a thought....perhaps Palpatine saw Alderaan's destruction as fitting revenge for said humiliating defeat in the Great Galactic war

[@randomobserver8168]

Torn. Laws of war that existed by custom for centuries, with a respectable amount of similarity but also differences across cultures and value systems [pagan Rome much crueler than Christian Europe, even if it isn't obvious now, and so on] , first started to get codified in treaties just before 1900. A lot that we do today still is based on the Hague Conventions, as supplemented by Geneva Conventions before and after WW2. That was a good thing, but it's still very recent that it should be codified and universal. And as strict. Some things that were quite normal even for the allies in WW2 were made war crimes after, presumably the allies thinking they'd never need them again. Still amused that blockade is now a war crime- a thing Britain did on day one of ever major European war for 200 years. And which the US did to Japan in the form of unrestricted submarine warfare. There was always hypocrisy. The Germans whined about the blockade in WW1 while waging unrestricted submarine warfare, a form of blockade, against the UK. The UK went ahead and did both in WW2. The US, whining about USW in WW1 by Germany, waged it more successfully than any other naval power ever before, or ever will again, in the next war, against Japan. So much so that Admiral Nimitz wrote specifically to the Nuremberg Tribunal that German Admiral Doenitz could not reasonably be called a war criminal, at least not on that account. Pretty indiscriminate aerial bombing of German cities and Japanese cities, and quite a few other countries' soil at least in Europe albeit mostly not their cities since they were occupied allies [but with many civilian dead] was normal procedure for the US, UK, and Canadian air forces in WW2. Yes, the Germans did it all first, at least as far as bombing cities on purpose, but the allies did it on a fantastically larger scale. Now we regard what by comparison are shockingly precise and targeted air strikes, whether by the US in the past 30 years or by Israel now, as war crimes because of far fewer and less planned civilian dead. AS, before the age of air attack, there were legitimate circumstances in which one could besiege, bombard, and, even, sack a city, so we all assumed in 1939-45 that there were circumstances justifying burning it to ash from the sky. All of which to say, perspectives have changed a lot, and they have changed the most in countries that [fingers crossed, hard] don't really expect to have to fight a war for real stakes, ever again. Even the US hasn't done that since 1945. I'm not trying to disparage Korea, Vietnam or more recent wars. Every war or skirmish is about the same risks and probably the same fears for the people in them. But nothing since 1945 involved a major threat to the future options or freedom of action in the world of the US, and frankly no external war since independence has ever actually threatened the existence of the US. Rebellion has always posed unique challenges. On one hand, rebellion was widely regarded as deeply serious, a mortal threat to the state in some cases, and the worst possible offense even if it wasn't, and until the late 20th century few countries considered rebels as even as good as enemy soldiers. They tended to be treated less well. On the whole, even the English/Scottish/Irish wars of the mid 17th century were only sporadically as brutal as civil wars and rebellions have often been elsewhere. Sundry Chinese historical states tended to regard them as a no nonsense situation- if you rebel, and win, you are the new emperor; if you lose, you are going to wish you had died quickly, and all your kin with you. Even more so than in the 17c, the British-American war of rebellion of 1776-83 was fought and ended about as chivalrously as any war of the era [there WERE war crimes on both sides; militias and native units were used aggressively, both by the British and militias by the Americans]. Practically Marquess of Queensberry rules. Ditto the American Civil War. Now we have reached the point at which many countries have signed on to treat rebels and guerrillas as if enemy combatants in an interstate war, according them things like POW rights. That was new, for the most part, after WW2. Handling civilians in a rebellion was also a challenge. On one hand, they may have been your own subjects/fellow citizens, and perhaps you want to win them back to your allegiance. SO maybe you don't sack or bomb their city to ruins like you might an enemy city. OTOH, they're backing rebels. So maybe you sack it worse, for punishment and example. Or maybe you think only some back the rebellion. Or maybe you acknowledge only their local government does. Maybe you are aware that the locals don't even know what their local rulers are up to. Maybe that ignorance, as so often, doesn't matter. Maybe they should know, or implicitly support it. All of which as preface to say that on the whole, no it was not a legitimate military target for complete destruction using a WMD, or for that matter a BDZ by the fleet [which would be more equivalent to a series of catastrophic bombings or bombardments]. But maybe for blockade, siege, close military action against its rulers, occupation and installation of direct rule. Not that those were necessarily useful or politic for the empire to do. And the question of whether it was a legit target, despite my answering no, is not as obvious as some would think. The chief reason to answer no is probably based on proportionality, which the Empire's attack lacked, rather than intrinsic illegitimacy of military action. Plus, remember. The Empire was in all respects the legal successor of the Republic, and doubtless most of its citizens regarded the Rebel Alliance as the heirs of the Separatists, for the same reasons, just as some separatists saw similarly and joined the rebellion. It would not be clear that everyone would have the Earth audience moral take on the issue. Even mine has changed a bit since first the EU/Legends [some works] and later the sequel era have changed the nature and meaning of the empire quite a bit. Some to make it worse, some better.

[@oakandthepack4887]

Long live the Empire! Alderaan had it coming 😂

[@ClubofInfo-Circulation]

the Empire should have said the the rebels had stolen the plans to a planet-killer weapon and tried to take them to Alderan, where there were obviously WMDs or attempts to build them

[@colinmcmasters8366]

Alderaan had weapons of mass destruction and they had chemical weapons!

[@ChrisJohnson-qr6cx]

Aluminum tubes

[@gumdeo]

Yellowcake.

[@jameshutley765]

There were millions and millions of non combatants on Alderaan. There is no way that it was a Legitimate military target

[@jasonindoe7540]

Hmmm, can't quite agree with this one. Tarkin specifically asks her if she had a military target while she was on the Death Star.

[@philippeamon7271]

That entire conversation was bold-faced lie upon bold-faced lie... They agree to pretend that Alderaan isn't a military target.

[@jasonindoe7540]

@@philippeamon7271 according to what source?

[@Gary_The_Metro]

man you should consider becoming an olympic gymnast because holy shit those are some mental gymnastics. "Well you see because this singular person refused to succum to torture and threats it is justified to blow up an entire planet with billions who have absolutely nothing to do with the rebellion whatsoever. Just because at best 1% of the population had something to do with rebellion" If the nazis in WW2 asked someone to tell them where a group of jews were, and that person refused. And as a result the Nazis bomb an entire town including the people living there to dust. Does this magically justify it? Seriously man in a list of BAD justifications. This is one of the god damn worst.

[@philippeamon7271]

@@jasonindoe7540 Uhh, the movie itself. Tarkin knew that Leia hated the Empire, even when she pretended to be an innocent imperial senator, but pretended that she might choose to cooperate. Leia knew there was no point, and Tarkin kinda knew, she knew - blowing up Alderaan had very little to do with the Rebellion, and more to do with Alderaan and "sending a message" of don't fuck with the Empire, but he pretended that her Rebellion was the important thing. Tarkin also knew, there would be very little of the Rebel's war machine on Dantooine, just enough to make her lie seem believable (even when she knew that distraction wouldn't work, she could console herself, that at least, she didn't cooperate with the enemy), but ultimately, she was lying to him, to distract him, and couldn't do anything else, when he would absolutely blow up Alderaan either way. So it was all just a bunch of fake pleasantries and polite theatre, to convince people in-universe, that the Empire is not so bad, actually, while convincing the cinema audience, that the Empire is cartoonishly, mindlessly evil for evil's sake.

[@jasonindoe7540]

@@philippeamon7271 ok man, all of what you said is no where in any source material, and is not canon. You might have that in your melon, but it isnt canon.

[@Embo_Marrok]

Fun vid

[@Bidmartinlo]

If you want to win every war, think like a Roman. If you want to win every battle and lose every war, think like a barbarian. Assimilation is always the better alternative to destruction.

[@gumdeo]

Completely destroying Carthage wasn't very civilized.

[@Bidmartinlo]

@@gumdeo I mean, even the greats make mistakes. Romans have made several mistakes like that after too, but they didn't make it their entire policy.

[@mrbarit529]

Why is there Star Wars equivalents for wheraboos (the epsilon guy)?

[@kahrnivor]

Would the Empire have cared one way or the other?

[@raidernivide4636]

So I look at the death star the same way as a nuclear weapon. Princess Leia gave up an old rebel base on one of the moons of her home planet. So justification as well as unleashing the full might of the death star was in a way an attempt to force the galaxy to submit. If the rebels had failed to destroy the death star like they did. Who knows what would of ended up happening. Maybe another planet tries to defy the empire and it to also gets the taste of the weapon of mass destruction. Empire would only target planets that were empty of resources, enable it to project fear and if a planet or race fell out of line. Their planet to would be destroyed. People be upset but if they spoke out, fear they to would be destroyed would become something for them to think about. So was it justified. Yes because taking out a peaceful planet would solidify the empires grip on the galaxy.

[@Joe-Przybranowski]

'from a certain point of view...'

[@motherteresa8418]

Why didn't Vader consult the Empiror

[@MalzraAirwynn]

I would argue that the only valid military targets for something like the Death Star would be lifeless planets etc where their military enemies are the only ones settled on it. Even if Alderan had openly rebelled against the empire the scale of destruction of the death star it outlandish and unjustifiable on a populated planet. It's easy to forget just looking at the pretty special effects the sheer scale of the needless, wasteful, excessive and cruel loss of life. This is several magnitudes beyond even the nuking of Hirohsima and Nagasaki in WW2.

[@RealBelisariusCawl]

Super lasers can’t crack planet cores! (To the cadence of “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams”)

[@GLTLegislator]

Alderaan shot first! You can google it. :-)

[@PenTheMighty]

The Empire is obviously meant to be a faction that mimics the strongman politics of a Fascist state but, in space. And one thing about fascists is that they love a good "struggle" or "conflict" in the philosophical sense. The Rebels see their struggle as a means to an end, freedom and liberty from oppression. The Empire sees their struggle as the end that justifies the means. As Mussolini put it, "The Fascist disdains an easy life." Tarkin himself, lorewise, is a classic fascist that relishes the chance to make war and crush his opponents with overwhelming force. It's literally his military doctrine and his personal philosophy. A great example is him showing off his scars (common among Nazi circles in Germany) and disdaining those who had none. Palpatine has even been shown to have let the rebels win or gain a foothold at certain times due to his "boredom" with the level of control the Empire had. He rather enjoyed that there were elements in his state that posed even a slight threat and constantly toyed with them, rather than destroying them. For Palpatine, the Empire was marching through history and the rebels were just a speed bump...But he sped up the car instead of slowing down for the thrill of it. In fact, throughout SW the Empire always seems to get it in its own way (Ozzel jumping out lightspeed to close to Hoth, for example). And all for the element of "surprise", which it wasn't as they were expecting the Imperials to show up. This is a incredibly poor way to control thousands of worlds but, this is almost a challenge to people like Tarkin and Palpatine. More than just brutal hard power, the doctrine represents Tarkin's mindset of eschewing easier methods for the opportunity to prove the Empire was THE authority and power within the Galaxy. Tarkin saw himself as an extension of the Empire (also a fascist belief) rather than a military officer. So, in their minds, picking a fight with the whole galaxy to show their strength was the "fascist" way of dealing with Alderaan supporting the rebellion. Alderaan represented a fully self-sufficient, peaceful, and most importantly subversive faction within the Empire. All within the State. Nothing outside of the State. Hence, why it had to be destroyed. Alderaan would always have been destroyed, whether slowly through invasion, embargoes, lock-downs, brutalization, gulags, and war crimes OR at the flick of a switch. They could not exist, politically, within the Empire as it was anathema to the State itself. It was doomed long before it decided to aid the Rebellion.

[@dalesnider8040]

Det. Rick Avery on the case.

[@SwitchCat]

so the weapons of mass destruction thing. Good thing this is only fiction ...wait...

[@fakshen1973]

If you're trying to do things on the epic side of space wizards and glowstick dueling, yes... destroying an entire planet scales. Star Wars as a WWII allegory would have something the size of a planet being destroyed as we would something the size of an entire city. What kills me is the inefficiency. The Empire could already surface wipe planets. Then they devoted all those resources to create a ship the size of a small moon to one-shot planets instead. How often do you have delete an entire planet? Tying up all of those resources in a machine of that size, when entire fleets of cap. ships and legions of fighters could have been bought openly and over a greater span of time. All of those people serving on the Death Star had to come from somewhere. Imagine having them serving aboard a conventional fleet of as many ships that could hold a compliment of that size.

[@uriustosh]

A government having weapons or not doesnt not justify the complete destruction of that government's domain, and those that live within it.

[@triaenmarsh107]

Randomish thought. A shame we'll never see Rahm Kota.