Was Gerald Gardner a Fraud?

#wicca #witchcraft
This video is a response to a question that frequently shows up in my inbox: was Gardner a fraud? Did he just make it all up? And how do we practice Wicca if he did?
I've got lots of thoughts here, which I share generally (as in all of my videos, off the cuff and totally unscripted). A couple of things I want to clarify, though:
First, when I mention Roland Barthes and "The Death of the Author" in relation to J.K. Rowling's transphobia and Harry Potter, I'm using her to make an if-then statement ("If J.K. Rowling is a transphobic, then we have to reevaluate our relationship with Harry Potter”) and she popped into my brain as low-hanging fruit. Please don't take it as me wondering if Rowling is transphobic---that's established as far as I'm concerned. Transphobia, for the record, is abhorrent and should be condemned where it appears.
Second, this video isn't about the problematic views Gardner and many of his contemporaries held, only the validity of his claim to be practicing something passed down through the ages. I am not disputing that his views were problematic. I am not defending his homophobia, colonialism, sexism, etc. Those things (along with racism and transphobia) absolutely exist within Wiccan spaces and popular Wiccan texts and should be rooted out and addressed by today's practitioners. I believe we as a community are doing those things, and that means being critical of our founders and leaders. Please, absolutely be critical of Gardner. Just don't only be critical of Gardner and not his contemporaries or their successors.
Finally, if you want to learn more about Gardnerians, initiatory Wicca, or covens, I wrote a book for you: www.amazon.com...
You can also find me here:
www.thornthewi...
/ thornthewitch
/ thornthewitch

[@clairebranson839]

Are not all Religions a human construct?

[@drawingKenaz]

I mean, **I** think so!

[@gastronomist]

Not if you're an Ancient Astronaut Theorist.

[@els1f]

Just like everything else humans think... "All of them but mine!😠" 🙃😋

[@solavie8269]

From my perspective- 💯.

[@andrewdunton6304]

Well I don't think it wise to not include the altered state of mind groups like hedges, siberian shamans, tibetan Buddhist meditations, hindus soma, and the Peruvian huachuma. ayahuasqueros and how the plants told them how to use an enzyme inhibitor is knowledge that begs the question of origin. Nikola Tesla claimed to be in comunication with higher intelegences that gave him visions of his inventions. I mean even Steve Job claimed that he meditated and got ideas for his company from sources outside himself but not human. Anyway the point is I think the above mentioned can be a example of a inner doorway that leads to an external source that inspired great movements and faiths. I mean I haven't even included most of the notable ancients like the Greeks, Summerians or Egyptians. But there comes a point in some religions when it was inspired by an external force that can be called a non-human external source. Talking with plants to learn how to turn off your liver is fine example of knowing something impossible to know without the help of an outside or non-human source. I do not think all of religion is made up by humans just some of the details and maybe some of the myths involved may have been painted with a colorful imaginative stroke but no less true, real or not human made. We cannot believe in the devine without believing in divine inspiration to some degree. "Edit" ps I do not mean ancient aliens either. I am not ruling it out but i mean more so in the way witches can have a plant as a familiar or a shaman as a plant teacher.

[@akashicsong9904]

I will say, your perspective makes me reconsider the path of Wicca for myself. Not that that’s what you’re trying to to but you’re absolutely right, that others stake too much claim in trying to discredit it and Gerald Gardner to make their way seem more authentic. If the path has value for practitioners that is the point.

[@corporatemerger653]

I get this a lot about Crowley too.

[@drawingKenaz]

Yes, that doesn’t surprise me!

[@corporatemerger653]

@@drawingKenaz although we call him prophet, it was never Crowley's intention to be worshipped or blindly followed and in his writings he expresses that repeatedly. Unfortunately many people believe Thelemites do just that. I will go as so far to say that there are people practicing Thelema that hang on every word the man wrote, which is unfortunate. Sort of gives our detractors ammunition at times. Lol.

[@drawingKenaz]

Our local OTO body does a really great job of discussing Crowley’s work critically, especially with newcomers. We have a really nice reading group and it’s super refreshing.

[@conradrevel581]

Me too 👍

[@corporatemerger653]

@@drawingKenaz Yes, our body does that as well. I think its really important. Glad to hear you've visited our fraternity! Since the pandemic started, we've halted all in person events. I really miss getting together with the fam, but technology has held us together. Regular zoom meeting, online courses and such. Have a wonderful weekend and enjoy the solstice!

[@onnduir]

Great thoughts! The fact that we don't treat our religion’s founder as some kind of elevated saint is one of the main positive aspects of Wicca, in my view. Gardner was just a regular, flawed guy who put together various found, borrowed and invented bits into a functioning religion. The reason we practice Wicca is that it works for us, not that it has some ancient origin. And this is also the reason it can *keep* working, despite the changing times, since we aren’t bound by some holy scripture written by a divine founder, but can change our practice as needed. One of the things I love about Wicca is that it’s a living and constantly evolving religion, and this is also what makes the question of whether Gardner was a “fraud” or not fairly unimportant to its continuation.

[@easttennesseeshakerboxes4833]

Thank you for a great video. Very curious, and I’m reading reading some of Cunningham’s books. Thanks again

[@absonus]

Interesting .No skin in the game as they say. I was raised as an RC but I met Gerald in the early sixties and he showed me around his place on the IOM .He struck me as a very genuine chap .Tolerated my stupid questions and I remember him fondly. He had a superb collection of weapons mostly from Malaya .Probably not a very erudite contribution to your discussion , just my personal recollection. He didn`t strike me as a fraud. His place was closing down and he just noticed me looking around and invited me in. I think that it was later that year that he passed .

[@drawingKenaz]

That is so cool! Yes, practically everything published or related about him is positive! Thank you for sharing!

[@leaettahyer9175]

All of this is just like Scientology

[@primalnexus]

My question is why do most pagan traditions celebrate the devine feminin but not the masculine. To me that seems like feminism not true paganism, and is a disgrace to paganism.

[@CherryBerry48]

can we get a music playing from this great witch??

[@theforestsage894]

Good thoughts

[@kelsangdrime3703]

omg, your library is as beautiful as you are!!! Just saying...lol

[@kimwelch4652]

The real problem is not Gardner’s veracity, but the modern tendency for literal thinking. In our modern 20th and 21st century discourse we’ve become fundamentalists seeing myth as synonymous with lie where something is either true or false and never anything in between. We have forgotten that history is not the search for truth but the search for a good story. We have forgotten that story is not about literal truth but metaphysical and spiritual truth. We have forgotten that even though the word “kangaroo” doesn’t actually mean “I don’t understand”, the story of the animal’s naming still proves a point (see Arrival 2016). Truth is never found in literal provable facts, but in the intuitive spaces between. Meaning is not the provable but the unexpected (according to Information Theory).

[@aphaiawyn5361]

I found what you said about historical accuracy not necessarily being the foundation of a belief system (or something like that) to ding something inside me. I grew up within Christianity believing so much of what is found in the Bible to be historically accurate (not all of it, mind you, but enough to satisfy myself)-and upon the crushing realization that my belief system was not in fact as historically accurate as I had once believed, I found the freedom to choose to believe something else... or find something else that worked for me spiritually. I think knowing the historical inaccuracies of a belief system are extremely important to establishing a lasting spiritual practice-like knowing what you’re getting into before signing up sort of thing.

[@dancingdruid8314]

Gardner was a ceremonial alchemist/magician and wanted some thing more personal. So he made it. Good for him.

[@jameslew2804]

Well said!

[@bloodsweatandsteel.2749]

As an outsider who has never been initiated in to any wiccan tradition, my humble opinion is simply, so what if he was? Clearly the religion has tremendous value to those who practice it! And as a pollythiest, it seams possible to me, however unlikely, that your gods were acting threw him and others to accomplish there own objectives. Wicca shure did explode fast after it was introduced. So maby there was some Devine punch behind it. Who am I to know though really. Personally I'm inclined to agree with you that he probably did believe just as much as he said he did. As a pagan ill admit to feeling some gratitude towards him and Wicca in general. If I understand correctly the rest of us have yall to thank for plowing the road in the first place. For that reason I will always respect traditional Wicca, weather I ever become initiated or not.

[@shanehiggs1779]

I'm not Gardnerian but will offer some thoughts: There are far too many people today who approach life as if it's a competition. They feel compelled to attack anyone or anything's "otherness" to compensate for their own uncertainty. Did Gerald Gardner make it up? No more and no less than any other who claims their way is legitimate. It's all based on someone's UPG, regardless of whether it's a contemporary work or one dating from thousands of years back. The only true question is whether this- or that system works for the individual. If it doesn't, move on and find one that does. Those who proclaim something as fraud because it doesn't work for them are either speaking through the filter of hubris, or through that of intellectual laziness because a meme resonated with the fleeting moment and circumstances they perceived at the time. Either of those can safely be ignored as you continue down the path that works for you. And those who have a path that works for them - regardless of founder - should focus on the blessing it brings them.

[@adot9259]

Well said

[@solcutta3661]

That is remarkably well written and observed SHANE HIGGS. You have said it as well as anyone can and your comment SHOULD be pinned at the very top of this comment section as a kind of header for the whole conversational interpretation of this question regarding Wicca and Gardernia. Well observed. Thankyou for your incredible input.

[@shanehiggs1779]

@@solcutta3661 thank you. Bugs me when people can't get over themselves. We're all perpetual Seekers...or should be.

[@helmoon85]

A year later & still WELL SAID! Thank you

[@thenightwatchman1598]

so what should we do. throw our hands up and say the truth can never be known?

[@jamesbonner7251]

Fraud or not, I reiterate what I said on Facebook, if it wasn’t for Wicca (and it’s creation by Gardner etc) we wouldn’t even be discussing this. BB

[@pinktourmalinewitch2757]

I'm not in anyway Wiccan, but I do know of Gardner and feel I can speak on this... At this point we are just looking at theories, gossip, and opinions. We can't really know for certain Gardner was or wasn't a fraud, but having knowledge of witchcraft as a practice and not a Religion, I feel confident in saying he learned something somewhere. This practice he brought to the masses isn't plucked from his own head, but witnessed and learned from authentic witches. Now did he tweek and brand his own flavor to his practice that people follow Religiously? Most definitely, but not more than anyone else who's learned the practice from elders, and customized it to their own practices. We all do what resonates with us and our souls. Therefore it's true and authentic to the practitioner, so really the mystery to Gerald and the past matters very little to the witches of today.

[@pinktourmalinewitch2757]

@Trinity M Im already am well educated on the past, but that doesn't mean I abide by all of it. What I was trying to say isthat just because it's old hat, that doesn't mean someone is going to wear it because it's their down line or lineage. It has to resonate and feel right to them.

[@SquierStrat72]

From what I know, Gardner came into contact and became part of something that clearly excited him. Something he took to be a survival of ancient beliefs. But he also felt, according to Buckland(Unlce Bucky's Big Blue Book) that it was incomplete and inaccurate in places. So he did some reconstruction and addition to create a more complete and workable system. And he didn't do it all alone. We know others were involved in what Wicca would become. So I always saw Wicca as an amalgamation, a fusing of some ancient religio-magic ideals, even if not the actual practices, with a more modern framework. I never thought he was a fraud as, IMO, that would imply ill intent I don't think he had. But a sincere person can very much be wrong about some things without being a phony. I practice CM and there's been controversy and discussions over the Golden Dawn's origins, the Cipher Manuscript, the Rosicrucian connection, etc.. And the original Order imploded on itself due to ego, power plays and a lot of petty bickering, leading to offshoots and Regardie publishing it so it could be taken up by anyone rather than be lost. But, in the end, as you said: Does it really matter? So The Golden Dawn got off to a rough start and maybe old Gerald was a phony(but I still don't think so). In the end, who cares. We're still here and still following things I think have value in the world, regardless of their exact origins, all these decades later.

[@KC-ku9dq]

I think it's irrelevant. I'm of the opinion that all religions are just tools that aid people in connecting with the Mystery (singular or plural). People choose the tool which suits them best. Problems come in when people mistake the tool for the Mystery. Or if they think only this one tool will do for all. Otherwise, we can use established tools or make our own - whatever works.

[@rachellopez8357]

“He thought of himself as an anthropologist, right, but no.” 🤣🤣🤣🤣⚰️⚰️⚰️

[@spinstercatlady]

Ngl I felt extremely disillusioned when I learned about the founders of Wicca and the actual origins (began practicing in the early 90's before much of this info was widely available), and thats a huge part of why I stopped practicing a formalized style of Wicca. That being said, I absolutely believe there's lots of wonderful truths and joys to be discovered in reading Wiccan authors such as Cunningham. One can find some truths in pretty much any religion if we just look.

[@AliciaNyblade]

I'm a non-initiate Wiccan who, for the most part, practices on my own. Gardner, from what I've read and heard of him, seemed genuine in his beliefs and that's enough for me to label him not a fraud. I also think there's a lot to be said for "spiritual and emotional history", as I've had experiences with that myself--not just in my spiritual practice but in my work as a writer and theatrical artist. Plus, let's face it, if we go far back enough into history, even the most renowned historians can only do guess-work at best. If our modern religion is going to be inspired by people who came before, whether their lives were within living memory or thousands of years ago, I think we have to make our peace with the idea that we may not always get all the puzzle pieces and let emotional intuition fill in the blank spaces. That's one of the things which first drew me to Wicca: It seemed like a faith that was comfortable in admitting, "We may not have all the answers all the time, and that's okay," which was a huge breath of fresh air compared to growing up Christian and having it drilled into my head that God would always communicate clearly what He wanted and it was on us if we missed or misinterpreted the message. So, yeah, that's my take on your take. :) Thanks for a great video. Blessed be.

[@Alexander-wq7qo]

I don't think it would matter. The Gods are real and the magic works. The religion is beautiful and empowering. That's more than enough.

[@oathboundsecrets]

By the way, this video is yet another GEM💎

[@drawingKenaz]

Thank yoooouuuu! I always value you feedback. 💙

[@dannyryumora7820]

Omg u just love to roast Gardner huh?

[@nairbvel]

Judaism was once the new kid on the block. Islam was once the new kid on the block. Christianity was once the new kid on the block. EVERY religion, extant or extinct, was once the new kid on the block in at least one locale, culture, society, etc. I really don't see any validity in the argument of, "if it ain't old it can't be a legitimate religion!"

[@elasticharmony]

As for Wicca ancient they mean from Saxon times just as the City of London calls everything before the doomsday book ,so. His theroies on history were the downfall of him. The Templars were not and are not witches at all but a masonic off-shoot.

[@WormwoodCrow]

"He thought of himself as an anthropologist, but, like... no." haha. Yeah, that's the same impression I got of Gardner after reading Heselton's "Witchfather". I also get the impression that he was a man raised in a world where British contributions to society made the world a better place (legitimate motivation and not just the imperialism and cultural appropriation we uncomfortably acknowledge today). He really believed he had stumbled on something that would revolutionize spirituality in the western world, filtered and disseminated from the bosom of Mother England.

[@BMK_Magick_Explorations]

Great video! Liked, and subscribed. I agree with what you've been saying. I've long speculacted that when Gardner found the New Forest Coven he thought they may have been part of the ancient witch cult, and they let him believe what he liked. Many back then were inspired by Margaret Murry's theories, and this group probably was also. We have to remember Gardner had no formal education, and was interested in anything magickal. Granted Gardner used some information from Aleister Crowley, and his own experiences with esoteric practices to fill in where the system of Wicca seemed incomplete. Overall he seemed more like a true believer type than a deliberate fraud.

[@ChelleLlewes]

I look at it this way: Uncle Gerald was an uninhibited opportunist who accidentally invented a great idea. Good enough for me!

[@femmeistheword]

I definitely think Gardner believed his teachings, but anyone who put themselves out to be that much in the spotlight had to have some sort of ego. I think he probably had some ulterior motives about pushing Skyclad ritual practice, but that doesn’t make him evil, that makes him a man in touch with his sexuality & a spiritual movement that embraces sexuality.

[@drawingKenaz]

Absolutely agree about ego-I think that’s true for witch creators now, too! I think it’s just about how we keep it in check. As for the nudity, I mean, he was a nudist first! I think we still collectively struggle with the idea that someone could want to incorporate nudity into ritual without somehow being predatory. Not that that’s what you’re saying, but I sometimes hear Gardner called a “dirty old man” and it always makes me pause, in a movement that purports to be sex positive. Why *shouldn’t* consenting adults engage in nude ritual if they want to, you know?

[@sonyamareestead6391]

I would like to get some of his books to find out for myself and from what I have heard and watched I don't think he is a fraud as there were witches way back when. I might call into my local second hand bookshop and see if they have any books by Gerald Gardner.

[@ChelleLlewes]

I tend to look at it this way: Uncle Gerald was an uninhibited opportunist who accidentally invented a great idea. Good enough for me.

[@ianstukenborg437]

13:33... Ah yes.. The age of complete ignorance and no accountability.... AKA... the "information" age.. Lol

[@coldcasenewengland9708]

I just finished Witchcraft Today, and I definitely got a sense of a highly superstitious, very gullible, eccentric, but generally well meaning guy. He seems to just accept anything told him in terms of witchcraft and the supernatural and doesn't give much a critical thought in that regard. He seemed eager to believe more than anything else

[@theforestsage894]

I have your book actually 😁 It’s an interesting perspective. Different than the sort of eclectic isolated practitioner stuff that you come across on the internet.

[@mlstar1695]

What book is that ?

[@kurtsteiner8384]

I am not wiccan or guardnerian, i think gerald garder was strang but not a fraud he was the face on modern witchcraft. I am traditional folk lore witchcraft started by cecil williamson son of the cornish mueseum of witchcraft and wizarxry. Guardner was a clkset nudist, who got involved in rhe occult in thwe newforest after word travel and living with tribes and learning their branch of magic, and started wicca, this was a religion

[@neuroD4d]

H. P. Lovecraft could probably be used too. It becomes a dilemma when you find out how much of a severe racist he was. It brings up a similar question: Should we all to stop watching modern horror because of it?

[@snakebitemcghee4959]

Was Mohammed a fraud, or the founders of all the other "major" religions? What about Mormonism, or Scientology (yeah, not a big fan or either but .. )Does it matter? If it speaks to you in a personal way, then go with it.

[@MikeRFrazier]

The passage of time confers a certain legitimacy on traditions. Most honest people today acknowledge there is no unbroken lineage from an ancient witch cult. But the longer these organizations and ideas stay around, they build a certain legitimacy just by surviving and growing for generations.

[@richardmccullough1350]

Perhaps the ancients knew unless they're was a more solid structure for the practice itself it would have faded out or at least alot of its value and practices lost over time...perhaps he was selected to push it more to the forefront where more mainstream religions had already been in operation and gotten recognition..could it bethat happened because people have always attempted to oppress those who practice wicca and at the time that many people condemned its practices...and just maybe the ancients knew that if theres no structure people would lose the vission of their history and art due to fear what many dont understand...just maybe....could it be?😁

[@AbigailVasquez]

ok I just love that you said "magic Grandma stories" lol

[@oathboundsecrets]

Was Margaret Murray a fraud? No, I don't think so. Her methods may have been somewhat flawed, and her ideas proven inaccurate, but she had an idea which inspired people. Wicca is a modern interpretation of Witchcraft. Gardner was just one of those people who got inspired. I think people give him way too much credit/flack for Wicca. He was just one of many who loved the idea of a witch religion.

[@elasticharmony]

Also it was illegal then

[@kaysierickey9068]

I just have to ask and its totally off topic but has anyone ever told you that you look like Drew Barrymore. You could be her sister

[@famesinatra8301]

That's not how I think 🤔 being one with the universe and yes you are speaking on thee an I view it as he opened your eyes to wat you have to talk about today blessed be

[@jonashotep]

I literally started in Gardnarian (sp) Wicca with Scott Cunningham’s works, Silver Ravenwolf, Buckland, etc. I then was called to Kemetic Orthodoxy for 13 years and am now sitting at Norse Heathen Ascensionist. I am bereft how folks target Gardner and Wicca as a bad thing. Do I feel Wicca is to “fluffy” for me? Yes but only for me. I have delved deeply into and am set well upon a Deathwalking path (I vibe well with the death current and successfully practice Reiki. It came down to balance and I believe Wicca has the problem (in the wrong mind) of being toxically “love & light”. I found Madame Blavatsky his mentor intriguing.

[@knowone3529]

Abraham deserves all the opposition that anyone can muster..

[@lisarivers8582]

What you don’t have a statue of Gardner to worship? Lol

[@drawingKenaz]

Only because I can’t find one 🤪

[@lisarivers8582]

Hahaha I just spit my coffee out laughing so hard. Ah I’m so glad I found your channel

[@russellstephen6998]

I was watching this video when I remembered that my year and a day was on the 10th, and altho I’m not a Wiccan for whatever reason this idea of a year and a day of research/ practice has stuck with me! Anyway I COMPLETELY MISSED IT!! I’m kinda mad but I was distracted by finals and preparing for the solstice... oh well. How crazy that it’s already been a year since I stumbled upon the modern witchcraft movement and how much I’ve already learned. Just thought I’d share

[@moletrain8204]

Order of the orange ball

[@triplecold]

“For cultural literacy in witchcraft spaces.” Magnificent!

[@talismanskulls2857]

The answer is yes.

[@piper8268]

I love love love what you said here:)

[@photographingtoronto2350]

Whether Gardiner or other Wiccan founders were frauds is, to me, like focusing on the colour of a car rather than whether it can get you where you want to go. Spiritual beliefs are personal, they are our attempt to make sense of the world and you have to work on it yourself and create your own practice. I think that's the strength of Wicca.

[@lensorcellement]

Personally, I believe that fantasy and imagination give real magical powers, so it doesn't really matter that a tradition or belief is rooted in historical facts. The problem is when someone claims (to others or himself) that the fantasies are historical or real.

[@shylathiel]

Nice video.

[@1734-Jason]

He was

[@krisafirexixeth4670]

Tee hee. Gerald Gardner, if you read his story, was taught by people who were called witches. Seeing the magnitude and importance of witchcraft, he then went out and relabelled it as "Wicca". He then went about spreading "Wicca" as a contemporary/ ancient religion. By spreading it and popularizing it, he spread the knowledge and awareness of magic and how to be a magic practitioner within that label of "Wicca". As the father of witchcraft? Lmao, hardly. As the father of "Wicca"? Yes. However, witchcraft as many people understand it today has been around for far far longer than anybody realizes. If you really want to get to the true pure origin of "witchcraft" you want to go back to hundreds of thousands of years and further still. Not thousands of years, but hundreds of thousands of years, heh. The term "witchcraft" is would even still be labelled as contemporary. "Witchcraft" has been around far longer, but it wasn't called "witchcraft". Take in all Wicca, witchcraft, demonologists, voodooists, hoodooists, Christianity, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and etc. and go back even further. It was not called "witchcraft" but simply magic craft and people were magic practitioners. Practitioners of magic. Anyone believing in and praying to a deity, god, or goddess is a religious person. Be they Christian, Catholic, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, voodoo, hoodooist, etc. Even Egyptian, Mayan, Incan, Hindu gods and goddesses. That is the religious belief behind and with magic. Take away all forms of religious beliefs in deities, gods, and goddesses and what do you have left? Magic ^_^. Pure and simple. One could say religion itself and the belief in deities, gods, and goddesses is a lie, in of itself ^_^. How many cultures and peoples have warred and killed in the name of their god or goddess? :P. The Christian Catholic and Judaic religions simply use the power of religion in order to force their power and will on everyone else. Controlling people through fear of divine punishment. ^_^. And because the Christian and Catholic peoples have taken over the world in this way, "witches" were forced to practice demonology to fight back just to protect themselves and survive the Christian and Catholic extermination. What better way to fight back against annihilation than to use and pray to the Christian and Catholic's own god's enemy? ie. Lucifer ^_^. And now they think witchcraft is evil, because it's a threat to their power. :D. Because they can't use and don't know how to use witchcraft magic, and so they greatly fear it. Everyone hates what they fear, and always deign to kill and destroy whatever they fear or can't understand, and especially can't control :D. So, behind every single religion, and belief in and praying to deities, gods, and goddesses, is ultimately the use and practice of magic itself ^_^. All forms ways and techniques of magic :D. All religion and belief and praying into deities, gods, and goddesses are lies. ^_^. So now the real question is what is your own moral philosophy? Your own moral compass and values? How do you or will you yourself use magic? Like a tool, will you use magic as a weapon, like a sword or gun? Will you use it to bully and harass and push others to get your own way, all at the expense of others? Or will you use magic to protect and heal? Will you draw your sword or gun in order to protect yourself, your life partner, your children, your family, and friends? Or will you use your magical sword and gun to bully and abuse and torment others? Will you use your magical sword or gun for your own personal selfish advantage, while all others suffer for it? Or will you practice magic to benefit and help yourself, while it also helps and benefits your life partner, your children, your family, your friends, and the entire human species, and/ or the world and planet? The question is not "what is magic?". The question is how do and will you use it? ^_^. Good luck ^_^.

[@aprilrrain]

I feel we owe thanks to Gardener.. whether intentionally or not he served to homogenize/whitewash the Old Craft in order to make it more palatable for the contemporary public to better stomach. Let’s face it, the 40’s and 50’s was a time of true female oppression and Wicca gave voice and the green flag to express their “feminine mystique” (thank you, Bella Abzug) and not be burned at the stake, much as their past sisters in the Craft. He made it so innocuous that woman’s magazines put his story front and center. He did more for The Craft than any of his contemporaries.

[@Malgorbia]

Magic grandma is hilarious. Also a lot of pagan religions of the past however you want to define them were a reflection of their attempt to understand their world and nature. There’s nothing less magical about a drug induced trip we just understand it better. (Not entirely because we still don’t know or entirely understand physics chemistry etc etc). So like modern paganism IMO should include modern knowledge including new science and new philosophies etc. whoever came before helped build our understanding of today but someone from like year 1200 wouldn’t have some innate greater knowledge. Having said that I’m not Wiccan but I do think blind faith which is fed to people from someone else is problematic maybe. But that’s I guess for each person to decide. It certainly isn’t something I personally support though.

[@maxinehof6636]

I am frm the unlikeliest place and of the unlikeliest race and peddled the most shadiest job ever and Wicca worked for me when nothing would, time after time.i have faced discrimination even frm the wiccan community and my very own community, still only Wicca was there. In fact, Gardner 's so called make believe Lord & Lady saw me through and about that I have no doubt. So, to cut it short I'll always be grateful to Gardner, Fortune etc for the knowledge irregardless of what some folk may think justified or not. I've seen their labour with my own eyes at work in my life when all else failed or was simply mediocre for my needs. Thank you Thorn for this video and blessed be.

[@MichelleJNorton]

I wonder if it comes from folks who were part of Christianity at some point. Many Christian sects on the fringe do worship founders, but not something that (usually) exists in any pagan space.

[@CherryBerry48]

is it bcuz of a person's problematic homophobia dwells in their mind, does it then mean we have to burn everything we have from 20 years ago and hate that one person that who has that said phobia? everyone has a phobia of some kind or another and thats not going to change, and that is sad that people out there has these phobias and they dont know any better or maybe they are illiterate on the issue and need to be taught we are all as equals. (?)

[@kiaradrake541]

So much THIS! I’m no Wiccan... It’s just not my style but I AM a Druid... and we have the same problem with Iolo Morganwg... he spouted “ancient knowledge” that was actually his own work... at that time they HAD to claim some ancient lineage to be taken seriously. Is that ok? At the time I’d say yes, so long as we NOW also acknowledge that fact... I mean really... what they did then is no different then what modern pagan authors do now! Yes, now they can be more honest about it but we live in a far more open and accepting culture when it comes to personal discovery and divination. Their provenance may not be accurate but that doesn’t mean what they had to say didn’t have value...

[@uthyrgreywick5702]

I've read Gardner, and I've have known folks who claim to be wiccan. It's plain from Gardner's writings that he was influence by Crowley and the old Solomonic grimoires. The wiccans I know don't follow Gardner's teachings, they don't even draw a proper magic circle for rituals. I don't know why but I always wear my protective pentacle when participating. The real question is do the things you believe, and the rituals you practice touch you on a spiritual level? If the answer is NO keep searching. Blessings.

[@0II0II2]

Whoo! Ok, that’s a lot. So interesting enough as a child I personally met practitioners of the Craft that practices at the same time as Gardener and never knew of him. Oddly enough I was also raised in a family of practitioners that predate gardener so I’m all with you on it not have lung much to do with him. However, we usually bare a distinction between the Craft and religion. To us the Craft has always been seen as a more of a scientific endeavor, akin to an art. Am beginning to think I need to write a book on it. Perhaps, if it weren’t technically forbidden I would. Also I would like to note that you can (with some effort) find were people in the earliest days of the United States. We’re recording the many different folk faiths of locals and those brought here by Europeans. Most commonly and closest to modern witchcraft was that of the Germans from the western regions. One really interesting article I found from 1928 (If I recall) specifically referenced an account of a group from 20 ‘someodd’ years prior and an incident involving them and an old town that had been mostly abandoned at the time. If I can I’ll post a link separately.

[@conradrevel581]

What about the witch that Saul consulted in the book of Samuel, in the Bible? Was he or she a pagan witch?

[@AlIguana]

outside of he Hebrews of the time, *everyone* was pagan. Every person on planet Earth.

[@jamieinu9872]

My take on magic grandma stories is that some could have some truth to them, but more in line with things like folk magic. These grandmas, if any existed, were likely just folk magicians, most of who would never call themselves "witches" and practiced something very different to contemporary witchcraft (because this seems consistent with accounts in folk magical communities) To add- I originally assumed "traditional witchcraft" just meant folk magic, because pretty much every material or individual I knew who espoused being "traditional witches" were just folk practitioners. I was surprised to discover the other traditions like Cochranian witchcraft and people who piece a practice together from medieval witch accounts, and if anything these practices always seemed more contemporary and less "traditional" than traditional Wicca to me.

[@venetianmetalhead]

I may be wrong but the understanding that I have on Gardners tradition is that he created or based it upon other pagan traditions. His form of Wicca borrows from English, Celtic and other pagan traditions. I feel like he didn't really create it but just took what was there and streamlined it. He made it easier to practice or follow. I don't necessarily think this makes him a fraud. What I like about Wicca and its variants is that it's flexible in a way most religions aren't. You can take the basic tenants of it and make it your own in a way. You can make it a more personal experience than I think is found in most other religions. I appreciate his efforts nonetheless. If he hadn't created his form of Wicca I might not have found something that I connect to and find meaning in like I do with Wicca. I am forever grateful for what he did.

[@andrewdunton6304]

People need to take into the account of the times. Gardner came to a world and society at large that had little if any magickal traditions he rekindled a new type of thinking in relation to the devine and humanity. He brought magick to a mostly magickless world. He made it easier (along with all the other occult contributors at the time) to break the free of the bondage the catholic church subjected the western world to. I am not a wiccan but have a great respect for wicca and its founders they where and are a beacon of light to all those who felt the conviction of unorthodoxy.

[@janethansen9612]

My view is that Gardner was just full of his own self importance but that in itself doesn't make his teachings less valid. Having said that, I haven't read very much by Gardner so it reminds me to do my own research and 'll take on board your recommendation to read the Meaning of Witchcraft (in my 2021 tbr list!). I feel like maybe I already have read it years ago, but worth a re read.

[@ordepeter]

He was a fraud. Copied it all.

[@DavinRaincloud]

We have magick, we have the old pagan gods... whats not real? Outside of covens/Trads we have this independence. But witches have always had solitary independent solo work. What a lot of these types hate is our independence I reckon.

[@rachellopez8357]

DOES IT MATTER?! That was my initial thought verbatim when I saw the title of your video, and I’m so happy you focus on this second question 💗💗💗 Also, the answer is no, according to me 😉

[@kimberlysharp2780]

As usual, well thought out and narrated. I am not Wiccan, though I have read quite a bit that is at is core Wicca-inspired. I agree with many of the commenters, that honestly, it doesn't really matter if Gardner was a fraud if Wicca works for your practice. It seems to me, that in the end, we all kind of cobble together what we learn from wherever we learn it and make something that works for us. Often, practices change over time. Does that make them less valid? I personally don't think so. Thank you for this, please stay well and safe.

[@findingjayagain]

I define our “spiritual history” as our “Myth of Tradition”... and the fact that our practice may have begun with our founders, but it’s not focused on them in terms of a “cult of personality”, if it was there’d be no way I’d still be in it!, and that seems to be where some of those on the outside of the tradition seem to come unstuck in their comprehension of it...

[@Grap3_S0da]

I agree with what you are saying here. In Doreen's biography it was brought up that she confronted Gerald about the stuff that he had added to his BOS from Crowley and according to that conversation he said something along the lines that what he received in his initiation wasn't enough information to create a whole tradition so he had to add to and embellish it. I think that actually makes a lot of sense. I'm not even saying that Wicca is ancient but there is a lot of material that is part of Wicca is ancient. Like did Gardner made up casting circles? nope people had already been doing that for a long time. Did he make up the concept of magic and spells nope people have been doing that for thousands of years. He didn't even make up the concept of a mated God and Goddess there are ancient cultures that have that and also at the time Margaret Murray was not contested like she is now so if he took it as accurate he wouldn't be thinking that he is making that up either. Maybe he brought together a whole bunch of ancient and semi modern elements together and synthesized them but that is hardly being a fraud. In terms of Wicca It's a living evolving religion and we shouldn't worry so much about origins and fighting over authenticity.

[@Grap3_S0da]

@@gobowwoewow3752 I wouldn't say that Gerald's point of view was all the out of left field for the mystics of his era. I'm not saying it makes him right but he doesn't really deserve the level of vitriol that I see he gets.

[@paulukjames7799]

He walked into a New Forest Wicca group and was handed down so some of it was older but because of the legal position never been written about so that sde was new

[@will279802]

Gardner was the person who brought the information together. The information was already out there , he brought it together in one place

[@fairday8587]

Well said. I think it touches on a broader problem facing our civilization, namely, the amount of misinformation out there on anything and everything. It's getting more attention in relation to politics but it's a particular problem for Occults. Firstly, there is an ancient tradition of attributing Occult writing to long dead magical people who had nothing to do with the writing so, there's been a less than accurate mythology for a very long time but that just builds interesting layers to explore over time. More importantly, magical experiences and divine revelations are very subjective and personal and not necessarily useful when passed off as cosmic truth. Occultists have to learn to sift through that sort of thing without being over critical or overly accepting, a fine line. People who's only source of information is the internet are faced with a never ending barrage of information that is just wrong and yet, there is a promotion of a standard that whatever I as an individual think or feel is right and if you don't like it, tough. In politics this has led the press to start refer to this era as the post truth or post facts era. What I love about your Thorn is that you don't just promote critical thinking but you don't give all the answers you've come to, you ask your interested people to got out and do the research and thinking themselves. That's the difference between a teacher and a preacher and we need more teachers.

[@judybrady860]

as a closet witch. wicca to me is loving core of my soul. gerald garner believed what he believed. to him it was the core of his soul

[@SallyRoseRobinson]

Thank you for your perspective. I appreciate this and will check out your book.

[@alexiselliott2995]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Very well said.

[@JulesMorrison]

There's also the less human centered perspective. If the gods of Wicca are real, then maybe they had a hand in helping the thing get started. Even if they had to kick it off with a hodgepodge of masonic ritual and Crowley and a rather weird old British guy. Time enough to shape it once it got rolling.

[@drawingKenaz]

Yes, that’s a good point! We seem to (collectively) rarely discuss the gods from this point of view, though many of us profess to believe in their power.

[@onemanarmysswampparty]

A lot of gerald garnders work was plagiarized from aleistor crowly btw

[@pollylolly6473]

always interesting to hear an insiders thoughts about Gerald. my unfinished masters thesis was about modern pagan books, from 1954 to the present, starting with Gerald Gardner's Witchcraft today, book, which like you say was quite the difficult read at times. I was a religious studies major, and Gerald's story of an ancient Wicca is very similar to most of the creation myths of most religions, but like you said he was not trying to exploit people, he truly believed in what he was teaching and practising. I believe the story helped to explain the way he felt and the experiences he was having, and probably fuelled by conversations with Ross Nicolas, the OBOD druid founder, and probably several others who where around the same area and club, and who were also exploring magical and spiritual practices. the history myth of ancient organised coven like practice was most certainly not created in a vacuum, there would of been many conversations with many others who where interested in the mysteries of magical belief and practice. so many different practices and spiritual beliefs came from that period. (late 1800's to early/mid 1900's) whoops sorry rambling.... although I have to add it would be lovely is someone could write an Introducing Gardener book in the same way that Introducing x theorists, books are written.. it would of been much easier to read one of those before slogging though Gardner's books. ok done now... *coughs*

[@beanbaghagwag]

Great video

[@belindabradley5341]

I totally agree with you.

[@jerseydeeofjbvstudios6958]

So not a Gardnerian, but Gerald's initial idea was to preserve older religions under one. That's it. Everything after that, as far as I can tell he failed at doing and today he would be in jail or a sex offender. So I've always seen it as Wicca is the initial idea, preserving the old ways while his way is Gardnerian a branch off and its own thing. I've been doing this since the 70's and never once called him the father of Wicca. And the thing about it is if you are preserving the old religions it makes the religion older. Wicca is just a title that is a legally protected way to do so. My bloodline is Catholic, Lutheran, Swedish Viking Pagan, Gypsy, and Egyptian under the title of 'Wicca' I could honor and practice all. It also allowed me to learn and share beliefs with my Native American friends. Over the decades having that freedom has allowed me to narrow down and construct my own polytheistic beliefs. So Wicca has evolved into a title for one to grow their faith freely.

[@drawingKenaz]

Can you say more about him being a sex offender? That’s not something I’ve seen any evidence for and it would be great to be able to look at sources. Thanks!

[@jerseydeeofjbvstudios6958]

@@drawingKenaz I can't give any readable sources sorry. I knew some back in the 80's who left his coven and they told me that it became more cult-like. How the few I spoke to explained it the modern way would be called 'grooming' and sex was the main theme. I was explained that it did not start that way in the beginning. I was a teenager at the time and was told this so I would be careful of the coven I joined. I even got the same warning from Isaac Bonewitz who practiced sex magick himself. His warning was not associated with Gardner though. Based on the stories I was told under today's laws I believe he would be labeled and/or arrested as such.

[@drawingKenaz]

@@jerseydeeofjbvstudios6958 Because no one to my knowledge has come out to say anything to this effect, and many of the people in his covens have written extensively. In fact, overwhelmingly they've said the opposite--that he was kind and genuine, if a bit of an oddball (because obviously). Meanwhile, this has become a popular claim on social media, seemingly out of nothing, and largely propagated by people who aren't Gardnerians or else didn't know the people involved. Many of us would be very happy to have sources, but so far I haven't seen any!

[@jerseydeeofjbvstudios6958]

@@drawingKenaz No I understand can't bring back people I knew 30 yrs ago either. Don't know much about social media since there was none at the time and I do pretty much stay out of it. Don't get me wrong I tried to find others online as I am disabled and homebound, but not many tend to be where I am in my journey. So, I just watch online seems I have better luck that way.

[@georginataylor3802]

As far as I found on my historical research is that Wicca first surface in the 1920s and that it was a modern interpretation of pre-Christian traditions and some may claim a direct line to ancient practices. These Wiccan practices were made public by 3 major players Margaret Murray, Aleister Crowley, and Gerald Gardner (Gardnerian Tradition). Since then different branches of Wicca have surfaced: Dianic Wicca, Alexandrian Tradition, Faery Wicca, Celtic Wicca, and others. There are those who do not associate with Wicca and prefer older more traditional practices. Some practitioners follow older practices that were passed down through the generations.

[@lampshade452]

Another great video! Thanks for this. Also: Do you have a pet snake?? That's awesome. What kind?

[@drawingKenaz]

Jack is a corn snake!

[@lampshade452]

@@drawingKenaz Oh wow, corn snakes are awesome! We have a really sweet corn snake named Piglet (he used to be pink as a hatchling but now he's white and yellowish). Sorry for rambling. It's so neat you have a snake 😊

[@drawingKenaz]

Piglet is such a cute name!

[@poisonparadise13]

Well said, Thorn

[@nicnaknoc]

So many ads on a 15 min video o.O youtube why you do this to us :D

[@drawingKenaz]

I think they’re really trying to push people to join their paid service! 🙃 My understanding is that there aren’t ads if you pay for Premium.

[@nicnaknoc]

@@drawingKenaz well I'll just take the ads then :D

[@christinaluna713]

Wow, I didn’t get any ads with this one! (I don’t have the paid service.) But on lots of others, I get tons of ads. I guess it’s not the same for everyone, with any given video.

[@tubifexgod]

Hey Thorn, you're monetized now! I saw a few ads, congratulations.

[@MsPrettyVermin]

It’s all KZbin monetised, the only ones that aren’t have swearing their content

[@onemanarmysswampparty]

Yes he was most definitaly a fraud