Was I WRONG about throwing knives? Reply to Adam Celadin

Adam Celadin, world champion knife thrower, disagrees with my views on the effectiveness of knife throwing in combat:
• Is KNIFE THROWING Usef...
This is my response.
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[@Quandry1]

People need to understand that just because they are enthusiasts of something. Even to the point of potentially mastering it in some way and finding a sport/niche to use it within. That does not mean that it has overall value. It just has Value in the specific context they found for it... or in situations where they do not have something better. They are allowed to like something That isn't optimal, People have done it throughout history. Some sports are actually born out of non-optimal techniques. Let's take Knife Throwing for example. Shad does not have the worst knife possible for throwing despite what Adam said. There are woefully unbalanced or shaped knives never meant for throwing that are useful in a variety of ways in melee combat and other utility ways that you would use a knife. Adam on the other hand several times uses knives that are specifically optimized not for being used as a knife or even in combat but for competition throwing. Some of them are actually dangerous to use for melee and unsuited for utility tasks except when you don't have or can't make anything better suited for those tasks. Further. Shad touched on this repeatedly in many ways. But let's talk about actual distance. 2 to 6 meter's is effectively melee range. This is 6 to 18 feet. Once you get within 5', while knives happen to be a melee weapon that still works well enough in this range, Your effectively within grappling range at this point. Ranged Weapons should be useful in a reliable way outside of these ranges. Realistic criticisms about dodging should also be outside of these ranges. Also, If Possible, when discussing dodging specifically, Evidence of using these items should be done against moving targets, not stationary targets. Stationary targets will do little that is truly useful to prove dodge ability. The reason being that the movement of the target can alter a blow from being life threatening to merely damaging, or even end up in missing the target entirely. The same can be said for something like armor penetration in many ways, You need to give a foundation of what you are using as your target and include things like padding and other accessories that would also be used in most cases of using that armor when trying to show lethal penetration through armor. This is why ballistics people that are really giving examples of this tend to do things like fire into vests with known ballistic protection ratings and do it complete with trauma plates in position and whatever other protections they might have when they are showing their capability.

[@dickjones4356]

Wow talk about being so clueless and ignorant of the subject. But hey you people clearly can not admit that you are wrong and still spreading misinformation.

[@zarthemad8386]

And we also need to admit that Adam throws 1.0-1.25 lbs Flichete DARTS!!!!!!!! Not KNIVES!!!!

[@worldwarwitt2760]

@Shadiversity In hallways, back alleys, or other niche combat roles were the freedom of movement of a larger primary weapon would be limited (like a medieval tavern), sure, they work. As a battlefield weapon, they are not practical. I think the issue with both your examination and Adam Celadin's examination is that there is a lack of terrain analysis (forest, urban, indoors, field, etc.)

[@Quandry1]

@@worldwarwitt2760 An environmental analysis wouldn't wield anything. Because it's throwing knives against just about anything else. Just about anything else covers things that work in the same environment you would give credit to throwing knives for to those other items that work in that area as well. Making the analysis basically moot. Because it doesn't excel in any individual place that something else couldn't also work as good or potentially better.

[@worldwarwitt2760]

@@Quandry1 Spears and long swords are not especially good in enclosed spaces. Further, a sword may be impossible to draw given specific circumstances. The example Shad gave assumes an ideal situation out in the middle of a field where the weapon is in hand and ready to be used. if say a swords man was in a tavern with tables and people, all of those would be an obstacles to being able to bear their weapon. a person wielding throwing knifes would be able to bring their weapons to bear and bypass those problems. same for an archer. unless they have a bow in hand, by the time they got their weapon ready they would already be injured or dead given an indoor setting.

[@simonklein4687]

Guys, it seems to me that in essence, you two agree with each other. Knives are good. People carry knives. People want to have fun pastime with them, so they learn to throw knives. Throwing knives than make a fine addition to their combat repertoir. For certain uses, that is. Here, case closed.

[@lumin0s]

It turns out, no one was wrong. It's just a little bit of misunderstanding, what a surprise.

[@Choryrth]

@@apricus3155 your entire comment is both incoherent, and obviously biased/bigoted. next time try to actually think about what's going on, and what is said, instead of the nationality of the people saying it, and making assumptions/insults, based on that.

[@malcanth3481]

@Z. Michael Gehlke ~ 34:20 "From short ranges, it's very very practical." -Guy in video "That is where we fundamentally massively disagree." -Shad Just because the two of them are being polite doesn't mean there is no disagreement. The guy in the video seems to underestimate melee range and how fast someone can close the distance. He acknowledges that after a certain distance, throwing knives don't have much use. But if you are in the effective range to use a throwing knife, you are 2 steps away from losing your head and too close to run. There is obviously a disagreement between the two. Knife dude wants to find some way that throwing knives aren't useless. And Shad is pointing out that you will be dead if you try to throw a knife that close to someone.

[@TBButtSmoothy]

YES! if u are not versed in a skill, mostly talkong abiut what u dont know its not wise regardless of how much observation or underatandings u have. Go to the source and ASK. u are not a [insert lractice here] to understand all nuisances.

[@malcanth3481]

@@TBButtSmoothy I do not need to be a chef to know when food tastes like shit. There is a difference between speaking from a place of ignorance and pointing out something that is easy for all to see. The rule of thumb for a knife vs gun is that a knife is lethal within 10 meters. A throwing knife's effective range is 7-9 meters. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that simply holding the knife and running is better if it means you are more lethal from at a longer distance. Throwing a knife has a shorter range, less lethality, and disarms yourself in the process. You don't need to be an expert to figure out that more deadly at more distance is more better.

[@ink4852]

Shad will say something and reiterate like 10 times that he means, specifically in this specific circumstance and context that he is currently referring to. And I'm like we get it Shad! Move on with the rest of the video already! Then the next video is him responding to someone who took what he said out of the specific context that he meant. Shad: "At sunset the sky is orange. Again, I mean at SUNSET. The sky isn't always orange, just at sunset." Guy: "Nuh uh! In the morning the sky is blue!" Me: :/

[@VernonKun]

If people don't completely miss the point after it's repeated 3 times... Anyway in most presentations it's good to repeat at least once

[@SpydersByte]

Im not sure why he hearted your comment but boy do I agree lol Shad is like the king of waffle, I can only stand to watch one or two of his vids in succession cuz the amount of over-explaining and repeating he does is just incredible. It's like a solid half of the video, and the other half is him needlessly trying to justify why he holds the opinion that he does. Why use 100 words when you can use 10,000!

[@bahamutkaiser]

The context can be just as faulty as the argument, just because someone sets an overly specific context doesn't mean the opinion they deliver can't be addressed with a broader observation.

[@manamongmen3381]

it really do be like this... I sometimes watch his videos at x2 and can just wait for the next time he says the point. it's kinda painful at times.

[@rachdarastrix5251]

Repeating myself several times in a certain pattern is how I learned to deal with dimwits... Uh, I meant... Humans..

[@heiter_bis_pingelig2877]

That's the right way to take a punch: "Did he call you fat?" and Shad continues to support that with "...evidence of me being chunky on the side..." and calls it fair criticism. Well played, good sir!

[@jamesallred460]

It's funny, I think shad and Adam are actually pretty close in their arguments. They both agree that as a primary weapon, throwing knives are not great, but as a combined attack, in the hands of someone who has a ton of practice, they can be fairly effective. What we really need is for them to do a collab with mock weapons! Cmon guys, do it! It would be so rad to see this tested with skilled users!!!

[@DJZephyr]

One of the more common "Did you know"s from LOTR is that Viggo Mortensen actually deflected that thrown knife in the fight with the big bad Uruk, and it wasn't even scripted.

[@AnotherDuck]

It was a "happy accident". Could've been bad.

[@liwendiamond9223]

​@@AnotherDuck Like that one time he broke his toe kicking a helmet and screamed to the heavens. That was bad. Fun fact, they took that take in the movie because it was by far the most poignant way Aragorn could ever mourn Merry and Pippin.

[@AnotherDuck]

@@liwendiamond9223 A little bit of method acting never hurt anyone. Oh, wait...

[@miniclip1162]

@@liwendiamond9223 even 'funnier' is in the fellowship of the ring when sam walks into the water to go after frodo... he stepped on a HUGE piece of glass that was stuck in his foot. he kept finishing the scene and then had to go to the hospital.

[@RedSky-vf8bf]

@@miniclip1162 Reminds me of Martin Sheen in Apocalypse Now. In an early scene in that film, he is basically in the throes of madness, drunk, possibly on LSD. He's dancing and thrashing around his little hotel room, and he smashes a mirror- I think that part was scripted. What WASN'T scripted: the huge cut caused by the broken mirror on Sheen's hand. Required several stitches to treat the wound... and if you just watch the movie, you'll see this exact take. The blood you see on him in that scene- real. The pain he appears to be in- real. Him wrapping a towel around the wounded hand- probably out of concern. There's a lot of interesting stories like this. They only interest me when the take ends up getting used, though; sure, the cool stories can be interesting, but it's way better when you see it in the film and you can connect it. "Hey, that's the moment when Viggo broke his toe!"

[@alwaysplaythegame]

I think Adam was trying to sell knife throwing in general, but his response more or less boiled down to: Throwing knives made good concealed weapons when you wanted to first strike an opponent from close range or couldn't carry a sword. Throwing knives make a lot more sense in the context of a standard hidden knife vs a hidden throwing knife.

[@alwaysplaythegame]

For what it's worth, I commented on his video that he didn't counter the argument that you made about them being essentially useless in battle - which he did like.

[@Gebunator]

Yeah, a sword was a luxury item. Not everyone actually could afford one. Throwing knives is good for combat for the poorer, I reckon. The spears, clubs and some leather/gambeson kind of battle.

[@WalkingCWild]

@@Gebunator spear is better than everything else you mentioned

[@TheRedHaze3]

@@Gebunator I don't think the poor want to be throwing away their knife every time they get into a fight. They're poor, after all, and knives cost money.

[@marcosantonio-hj7vp]

I imagine the advantage to throw a knife against a bow/crossbow in one "cowboy situation". Any of you take the weapons at the moment, an you to start together but the bow/crossbow need to be armed and the knife you take and thrown so the speed is your friend.

[@KermodeBear]

I genuinely appreciate people making back-and-forth videos like this. It's very educational for the rest of us.

[@pedrogusman4517]

The one thing I end up thinking about this matter of throwing knifes is actually the cost. You're throwing it so you have to bem open about the possibility of losing it so throwing weapons seems more like disposable things or cheaper while a knife os more sophisticated. In a medieval scenario it will probably be forged or the material will quickly break or dull even if you recover it.

[@ArenaEscritora]

That's why well sharpened rocks used to be a preferable option

[@romebigred2]

I feel like Adam's response wasn't really to Shad. I feel like he was really clarifying, and suggesting ways that he feels it's useful, even if it's really only a distraction or intimidation technique. I feel that most of what he said doesn't actually apply to criticizing Shad or Shad's points, but clarifying to people who he feels may get the wrong impression from your video. I feel like this rebuttal might be a little more directly oppositional that Adam's response would really call for. I think on most points, he really agreed with Shad.

[@ThreeGoddesses]

Adam also mentioned that most throwing weapons, speficially shuriken and boshuriken, were primarily defensive tools, meant to distract ones opponent and were otherwise primarily used as poison delivery methods. However, he does go into great length about how TECHNIQUE can make it more effective then what shad was referring to, with combat throws vs spinning throws. He even shows that with practice and training, he can go far beyond the range of what Shad initially argued AND WITH ACCURACY. So if we allow for it to be used against unarmored opponents within acceptable ranges... there are actually a ton of situations where a throwing knife can be both useful, and effective. Shad really doesnt want to be wrong here.

[@user-tzzglsstle585e38]

​@@ThreeGoddesses I don't doubt that someone can accurately throw a knife for in long ranges with enough practice, but things to consider though; throwing a knife in such long range would cause it to lose its inertia and thus-- less power, and this is really important because battlefield (the main point of Shad when it comes to its use) soldiers would definitely wear padded armor at the very least, the target would also be able to see the knife coming at them and have plenty of time to either dodge if far enough, or block/deflect it, using a throwing knife in long range and battlefield isn't really very practical since that's not what they're meant to be used for. The primary and basically only good use for throwing knives is unarmored combat, fleeing and concealment/stealth, all of which are not really exclusive properties of a throwing knife and can be done by other weapons just as well or better.

[@ThreeGoddesses]

@@user-tzzglsstle585e38 ok I just want to point out that hitting a thrown knife with a sword is a LOT harder then your making it out to be. Think about it: Can you consistently hit a baseball thrown by a skilled pitcher? Standard knives weigh about half a pound, just a little more then a baseball. Can you hit a softball thats been pitched by a skilled pitcher? Knives can travel about 50 kph through the air. And Yeah, sure. Throwing a knive in miiltary conflict isnt super feasible. But thats NOT what i said, I did mention that throwing against armored opponents isnt feasible, nor is it what ADAM said. And it completely negates that the vast majority of INDIVIDUAL instances of violence is outside of war... where people are far less likely to be wearing armor. And you would be far less likely to be using knives in military combat regardless. Which was NEVER THE POINT of either video. Its always been "How effective can a thrown knife be" and the answer is... well, yeah, it can be effective, ESPECIALLY IF YOU PLANNED FOR IT TO BE AN OCCURENCE. Dont just take a knife from a sheath and throw it for coolness, its something that you need to have prepped and practiced for. And it totally takes historical usage of throwing knives out of context; they were used by many cultures, and often to great effect. Many cultures HAD throwing knives used historically:Shuriken and boshuriken, the mambele, the kpinga. India had throwing knives, native americans used throwing knives. And if there wasnt a throwing knife, there were throwing axes. Thrown blades have been around for centuries, and have seen historical use AND success. Shad is not only arguing a very specific example where knifes arent effective, hes ignoring their use in history.

[@Quandry1]

@@ThreeGoddesses Your Actually using Faulty logic in the skilled pitcher argument. The average person may have trouble with it. But Another Skilled Baseball player actually has a decently good chance of hitting that ball. But more than that. The average person is not just going to run into a skilled pitcher to have to hit a ball that is thrown by. Further more Deflecting that ball takes much less skill and capability than actually knocking it out of the park. It only requires intervening the bat between you and the ball, where ever it goes beyond that point doesn't matter. which is actually easier for the average person let alone somebody skilled at swinging the bat. That skilled Pitcher against that Skilled Batter is the actual scenario argument that should be used when it comes to throwing knives vs being able to block or deflect the shot. However, To go further, When your talking about an unskilled pitcher against an unskilled batter. There is less likely that the Pitcher is ever going to get that ball where it needs to go in the first place to help compensate for the unskilled Batter to deflect the ball. And both of these scenario's ignore the possibility of just stepping out of the way of the ball. As for the Historical Context. That is incorrect. While there is evidence that knives were thrown in lots of cultures, there is little to no actual historical evidence in almost any of those cultures of them having any Great Effect as you put it. While Thrown blades have been around for a long time. They've usually been presented as something that you do only if you have to and their effectiveness for doing so has been almost non-existent historically. Having something used enough to have it recorded in history does not mean it was necessarily effective, or used in a wide variety of scenario's. The reality is that if you have something that fits easily in the hand. At some point in history it's likely that it has been thrown and a culture has adapted some version of it for that. Also of particular note about any versions of throwing knives that had what could be argued as real cultural significance, They tend to come from cultures that either had ban's on weapons that most could carry so concealable weapons had increased popularity, or they are cultures that never really got into actual swords. It's interesting that you bring up the Kpinga in particular because that one has more evidence of being a status symbol than a truly effective combat weapon that was thrown, And it has the interesting distinction that it's really hard to call it a knife despite that's the category it got thrown into because of what is an extremely unique design who's practicality outside of it's culture is questionable at best and it's probably better classified as a unique kind of weapon rather than trying to call it a knife of any kind.

[@ThreeGoddesses]

@@Quandry1 we have actual european swordsmasters write in their manuals the value of throwing knifes and swords as a battle tactic. So not only are you WRONG that we have no evidence of their effectiveness, but some of the leading and most trusted instructors of swords combat thought it was valuable enough a tactic that it was worth mentioning in books about swordsmanship. The argument I was using wasn't faulty logic; it was a metaphorical analogy meant to indicate how fast a knife can go. A good throwing knife is a little heavier then a baseball, about the same as a softball and go about half again as fast, with less of a forward face then either. It's harder to deflect a knife then it's being made out to be, even for a skilled swordsman. So not only is shad being deceptive in his arguments about throwing knives, it ignores historical precedence as well as expert testimony. And even in his actual showcase, he WAS hit by the knife, and his friend barely made an effort after the fact to engage. Are yall familiar with the 25 foot rule? It's a concept in law enforcement, that if someone is within 25 feet of you with a knife and your not in an active ready position to fire, you cannot react faster then that person can close the distance. And most people can't run 30-40kph, the average speed of a thrown knife. Maybe Usain Bolt could, but hes literally the fastest man alive. Mythbusters tested this in their experiment in regards to bringing knifes to gunfights. The concept is similar; if you aren't prepared for the knife throw, your very much unlikely to be able to react in time to dodge or deflect it. So if there is historical evidence of its usefulness through expert testimony and publication, it was used by multiple cultures in a variety of roles, and a modern expert disagrees with an amatuer about its effectiveness, what's the conclusion that we can draw hmmm?

[@_DATA_EXPUNGED_]

I really appreciate your response style. Respectful without any bashing, yet filled with information. Awesome!

[@johnzahm193]

Shad is a good and humble man

[@Sutskoen]

Be wary of the warden

[@wakkaseta8351]

Well that's clearly the hallmark of a lukewarm moderate fence-sitter.

[@Jim-tb7sj]

@@wakkaseta8351 or just a polite human being…

[@wakkaseta8351]

@@Jim-tb7sj Well yes, if your definition of "polite" is actually "unproblematic".

[@loteknomad5032]

Really appreciate the way you approach this kind of discourse, Shad. Your civility, clarification of preconceptions and conclusions, where your experience and knowledge are limited, and willingness to make concessions where you feel they're appropriate are all admirable. Please continue to make these kinds of videos when time and circumstances allow. You're showcasing far more than martial and historical expertise.

[@ghanaboyz]

All that giggling... no. Could make without it.

[@nucleartestrabbit]

I’ve seen skallagrim practicing deflecting thrown items and he does so pretty effectively. Because throwing is pretty telegraphed too it’s pretty easy just to sidestep… I’m also curious how thrown knives would work against armor I bet even softer armors would be super effective.

[@michaeldubery3593]

You should go watch that guys video, he can throw pretty deep into wood and says he has thrown through chainmail before.

[@kathrynck]

@@michaeldubery3593 From what I have seen following many videos on martial combat online, most enthusiasts tend to over-estimate how much damage they're doing to targets. I'm reminded of a video of JoergSprave's, where he was making something, and broke a drill bit. Then at the end of the video (probably an hour or two later real time) he says something like "ok, I guess that's all for today's video, I'm going to go and maybe see a doctor, cuz I think the broken drillbit is lodged inside my hand, and the wife is making me go to doctor". So when you see people whacking coconuts and gel blocks and saying "Wow! that went at least an inch through the armor!" ...in reality, that's not particularly lethal or impressive. Don't get me wrong, that 'could' kill someone in medieval times, but it would kill them from infection many weeks later. On the day you stick a sharp thing 1-2 inches into them, they're probably still going to feel plenty enthusiastic about killing you. My background/expertise is much more in firearms. And comparatively, even the weakest firearms penetrate armor and do massively more damage to gel or coconuts or melons, or meat slabs, or whatever 'target' you choose (more than martial weapons typically do I mean). And still gunshot wounds quite frequently fail to kill or even incapacitate an opponent. It's exceptionally important that you hit certain vitals deep in the body (with a large amount of trauma) to have anything resembling an immediate effect on target. If all of your blows poke only an inch or two past armor, it's going to take you all day to actually kill your foe. You'll both probably collapse from exhaustion before blood loss.

[@nucleartestrabbit]

@@michaeldubery3593 well you figure how deep could it really go even without armor. Barring getting lucky and catching something vital I’m guessing more of a minor wound then anything that would actually stop you in your track. I’m speculating but I’m guessing 2-3 inches of penetration. I’d bet even leather would cut that down to less than 1 in. Like I said just speculating.

[@Tommyknox777]

When it comes to dodging throwing knives in a close range stand-off, why is no one mentioning a pump fake. Now you've flinched and you're on your heels or off balance. I mean, play a game of dodge ball or basketball.

[@broknangel6514]

@@nucleartestrabbit Have a friend chuck racquet balls at you at high speed without wearing protective gear while you try to charge in for combat. See how often you go full charge when you know that if you get hit it's gonna hurt like hell. Then talk about how easy it is to defeat 100,000 years of preprogrammed instinctual reactions. The military has to specifically train the reaction out of it's soldiers, what makes someone without that training think they can just ignore mortality flying at them? The power of a thrown knife is not in the amount of damage it CAN do, but how your body will override your basic instincts to prevent injury from flying objects. An even easier experiment is to shoot someone in the head with a nerf dart when they're not watching for it. See how fast they spaz, throwing arms up, ducking and dodging. It's not a matter of how lethal a flying object is, its how your lizard brain perceives the threat. Dragonflys are also great to watch as they fly through a crowd. same reactions from almost everyone, even though a dragonfly has almost ZERO chance of injuring anyone. You're more likely to injure yourself trying to duck a dragonfly than you are to actually be hurt by it if it hits you.

[@linkbond08]

Something important to take into account: It takes up to 8 seconds for someone to collapse after being shoot trough the heart with a pistol round. (Incapacitation via most high speed rifle rounds is almost immediate) It takes 30 seconds aver for someone pierced trough the heart to collapse. As a bow Hunter I've seen deer go full sprint for over 30 seconds, and cover 50 yards or more, after being shot trough both lungs, and the heart with a 3 edge broadhead arrow. The takeaway: Not just because you threw a knife, and it pierced the heart, does it mean that your opponent will stop fighting. Life is not video games, or movies, and opponents pierced through the heart can keep fighting until they collapse, and you might be dead by then.

[@antonius.martinus]

I don't think anybody advocated that throwings knifes are good as a primary weapon, but more of a distraction that can cause some damage, once you lost your main weapon, so you can throw the knife & either attack with something else or just make a run for it

[@CrypidLore]

Deer are substantially more durable than people, it might take time for someone to bleed out when shot through the heart, but they aren't moving about. Whereas a deer can get it's leg ripped off on a fence and run away like nothing happened, terrible comparison.

[@RiskOfBaer]

@@antonius.martinus Or you could carry another, good weapon as your backup weapon and use it in an effective manner. Like a proper dagger for example, or a short sword even, or a small firearm if we're talking modern day combat (which soldiers already do, they carry pistols as a sidearm). Also, the whole scenario of losing the primary weapon is extremely unrealistic. 9/10 times it would spell immediate death since if opponent sees you do something like drop your sword on the ground, you're going to get rushed and killed immediately. As Shad said, you won't even have the time to throw a knife as a distraction an run. Don't lose your primary weapon... and if you do, use a backup weapon that's actually effective at it's job.

[@antonius.martinus]

@@RiskOfBaer Ok, lets say that the shaft in your polearm breaks, so you take out your sword wich you end up dropping for whatever reason or is not effective against the armor that the opponent is wearing, would you rather a) take out your dagger and try to fight someone who still has its main weapon, or b) have another short range weapon that you could throw to run away? I mean, I guess you could throw your dagger, but at that point you would be losing a more valuable tool, than just a cheap piece of weighted metal to throw. Also, why would you stay still while someone is charging at you, you can still move around.

[@ohauss]

Life is not video games, deer aren't humans, and you can "prove" pretty much anything by cherrypicking your scenario.

[@LOWB90]

I believe the comparison of knifethrowing to a firearm would be that you can quickly "fire it" without having to carry around a bow or similiar weapons of war. If you carry 3-5 knives it's probably easier to deploy than a bow in a "civil" setting. I believe Adam is referring to a civil combat situation and Shad is talking about a battlefield. Even the throwingstars are not deployed in a battlefield situation, rather they would be used during surpriseattacks or infiltration. I think both Adam and Shad is right, but they are talking about different settings. That's why Adam is agreeing with Shads points although he tries to have opposite points. Also I believe Adam is talking about throwing weapons as a group and Shad is purely talking about a typical knife you use to throw. In order to continue this discussion you need to agree on the talking points: -are you discussing all throwing weapons? -are you equipped with other closecombat weapons? -are you fighting an opponent with plate armor or only a chainmail? As a viewer it feels like you are talking a bit past eachother.

[@MaMastoast]

Exactly.. Adam is pretty much saying that if you are trying to surprise attack someone, or give yourself a chance to run away in a civilian setting, a dedicated throwing knife is very useful as an opener. Shad is talking about an actual battlefield with people already actively trying to kill you with weapons of war.

[@poquu1081]

Yep, Shad is trying to show that having ONE throwing knife as your only weapon on the battlefield is a bad choice which Adam dosent dissagree with, but they still can be usefull depending on the context . Shad asked what are the benefits of knife over other range weapons excluding guns,first is speed : from being disarmed to launching a projectile knife is the fastest and they are easy to conceal and carry without issues, Shad himself said many times that ppl used to use swords in non battelfield situations not becouse they were better but easier to carry in day to day conext than for example spears, same with knifes, easier to carry and conceal couple of knives than a crossbow on your back.

[@poquu1081]

Also you can have both sword and knive as self defence options, when you see attacker aproaching you pull out both, if you have time (distance) you throw your knife and still have the sword in you hand, if you dont have the time ( attacker rushing at you with full speed) , then you use both as melee weapons.

[@andreas_rr]

Good points and i think they definitely talk past eachother. I think it doesnt matter too much wherther it's a battlefield or a civilian setting. Ít's nice to say bows exist, but as an archer and kendo practitioner, i can pretty confidentially say that carrying 3-5 throwing knives and deploying them in an opportunity is much more useful as a melee-oriented unit than having a bow, as using a bow in melee range is just really dumb in every single scenario. The biggest advantages of throwing knives are that you dont need a bow (which does also have its advantages on the battlefield), and they can be deployed quickly and onehanedly. You can still defend yourself with your main hand weapon while randomly throwing a knife with your off-hand. Knife-throwing is not an effective primary or seccondary weapon, but it's a really effective opportunity weapon. you just carry them, and if there's a fitting opportunity, you can still get a lot of value out of it. Additionally, a knife throw move should be rather unexpected and used when the enemy is off guard and not expecting it. Arguing that it's so easy to close in, and demonstrating this in a situation where the swordsman is just waiting for the "go" to rush in the thrower before he can throw the knife is just a wrong and nonsensical comparison...

[@dylanblack8714]

@@andreas_rr anything can be an effective opportunity weapon a brick can be an effective opportunity weapon

[@jitone1]

I love these videos. in LARP I play with a rapier and he throwing dagger in my offhand. I often use it as a distraction but it's useful to hit mages before I can close the gap. It is also useful against longer two handed weapons when they have a reach advantage. You have to have good timing in your throws, because once you do they will have you at a disadvantage. You have to wait for a lall in combat to pull another one. Though often The sword in your primary hand is often enough to keep enough distance to pull another dagger. Which I have up to five.

[@yerghaizverot6441]

I really like these videos, where you have a back and forth with other people. It's always respectful, entertaining, and informative, and opens my eyes to new views and OH MY GOD A KITTEH!

[@shaidrim]

Shad I agree on the general point, as it’s evident that a sword has greater chance than a trowing knife in combat, but sometime you seems to miss his point. One is, you don’t need to start the fight at six meters to trow your knife. You can trow in time to strike the foe as he enter the six seven meter range. Plus, he said that beyond seven meter the no-spin technique is more a matter of talent, not that is not useful, and you can still use the spinning trow much before your foe will close. I think the main discriminating factor is of course armor. Against armor, very slight chance to score a meaningful hit, I think is not even worth trying, but without armor? It can hurt very badly.

[@michaelsorensen7567]

Issue one: if they're moving and you're trying to calculate where they WILL be, it adds complexity and chances for things to go wrong Issue 2: you still don't have a knife when they close

[@ohauss]

@@michaelsorensen7567 " if they're moving and you're trying to calculate where they WILL be, it adds complexity and chances for things to go wrong" Nope. If that's "added complexity", just run. Run away. If judging distance is "added complexity" to you, fighting is clearly not for you. Assessing proper measure is the sine qua non for any kind of fighting.

[@michaelsorensen7567]

@@ohauss so it's easier to hit a moving target than a stationary one?

[@DemonKing19951]

Well, to be fair even with armor... If you've chosen to use knives in combat, learning how to throw them doesn't actually hurt you. It adds versatility and one could reasonably make the assumption a professional could hit a full speed boar at 20 meters if they were prepared. If you're good enough at it knives like the ones he showed might actually simply be in your list of tools too, longer spikes good for stabbing are just generally something you'd carry for use against armor and animals with tougher bones. (Hence, my reference to being able to accurately strike a boar.) So in the reasonable uses I could imagine, all of which boiling down to disabling a limb or producing a wound deep enough if slows them down, don't necessarily care that the knife didn't penetrate particularly deeply. It also wouldn't necessarily be something you're relying on to win, only to facilitate an agility advantage you already possess... I also might happen to believe incorporating sheathes into your armor for more of those spikes he used would aid in the 'reloading' issue of melee combat, not that you'd ever throw while you didn't have at least a second to do it.

[@michaelsorensen7567]

@@DemonKing19951 right but original conceit was "doesn't work as primary weapon", which all those things don't counter. He conceded there were reasons and possibilities, but the Katarina from League of Legends style of fighting is total bs

[@littlebrowny6983]

I think the way throwing knives would be most useful, is when you are the one, closing the distance. Like if you are in a knive-fight and your opponent starts running away. If he is faster than you, then you could throw your knive to still get him, but this situation would not occur on battlefield. With this perspective movies and videogames are actually quite accurate because they are tipically an assassin weapon (mostly against unarmed/unaware opponents).

[@Pystro]

I would say that it would be generally interesting to see a range of different situations: -- Shad has demonstrated the situation where both attack at the same time. -- What if the knife thrower initiates the attack* and the melee fighter rushes only in reaction to that? -- What if the knife thrower initiates the attack* against the melee fighter who is forced to stay in place? -- What if the melee fighter initiates the rush* and the knife thrower defends themselves with that last ditch throw? -- What if the knife thrower tries* to throw and bolt and the melee fighter only rushes in reaction to that? * where "initiates" means that they get to choose the time for it.

[@bahamutkaiser]

I imagine the person practiced in using a projectile would know the distance to prepare and launch the projectile as well or better than their target, if there isn't enough space or opportunity, they aren't in some video game build where they are forced to take that option.

[@Dan-rl1pi]

This situation would actually be very common on a battlefield whenever one side starts to lose most people run away they dont stay to be killed. Shad even says this in like all of his videos about ancient warfare.

[@littlebrowny6983]

@@Dan-rl1pi yeah but a battlefield isnt a 1 on 1 situation and killing one opponent doesnt mean you're safe to lose your weapon.

[@Dan-rl1pi]

@@littlebrowny6983 not really the point here. Battles weren't like you see on TV just a big skirmish you had lines and formations there would be time to grab a secondary weapon while behind a shield wall and throw shit at people on the other side then get your main weapon and attack again.

[@milkshakellie]

knife throwing is hard and impractical and that is why we think it is cool when someone can do it

[@Wasertaser]

Disagree. Home invasions

[@kathrynck]

The police standard for a distance at which you can draw your gun in response to a knife charge, is 7m. I knew someone who was spec-ops who felt that his personal safety limit was 4m (based on his drawing skill). Bob Munden could've drawn on a knife attacker a couple feet away. But there's a reason why police say "get on the ground!".

[@HerrMatom]

im 29 min. in and i wanted to say something similar. There are Many Police-Cam videos, showing how fast People can close the gap, with, for example a Knife. And we are talking about non-trained ordinary people or Dunkards that the Police has to arrest. You easily can test this yourself. Just go a few feet away from a tree and see how fast you can close the Gap. I took me awhile to understand how dangerous these situations can be. there is no fkn time to throw a Knife. Shad is absolutley right. And back to the Police videos i brought up. If a fight is breaking out. Lets say the Attacker with Meelee Weapon is hit with a throwing knife.. dont underestimate Adrenaline. There is a Reason that Cops dont shoot just legs or some hollywood BS. Or that Policeforces dont stop shooten. You shoot as long as somebody is on their feet. Adam is great at what he does. But in an urban encounte Knife throwing will not Surfice. Could it be useful in some Niche-Situation? Sure. Its a bit like Crossbow vs Bow. One of those doenst need much training, the other does.

[@kathrynck]

@@HerrMatom Yeah, leg shots are pretty silly. It's a valid tactic for stopping someone from escaping without killing them. It'll slow them down a bit and create a blood trail to follow. I could see it for police or military trying to catch someone they need to interrogate. But defensively, unless you hit a bone and shatter it, or the femoral artery, it's not going to have any impact on your outcome unless the attacker volunteers to freak out about being shot and gives up. Frankly in a knife charge, one of the problems is that even a heart shot may not stop them from reaching you if they're determined and full of adrenaline. Total cardiac failure is not "instantly" fatal. A heart-hit on a deer will drop it in it's tracks. but if it's a second shot (adrenaline already flowing, deer already running), the deer may run 50-100 meters with no functional heart. That's why they train that if lethal force is justified, to keep shooting until a target goes down. Even if the coroner later determines it was excessive. You don't have that report handy in the moment. Throwing a knife at someone will do dramatically less damage than most bows. And most bows do equal or less damage than most pistols or revolvers, and most handguns do dramatically less damage than a rifle or shotgun. And some people survive a rifle or shotgun to the torso. I can't see a knife throw penetrating deep enough to damage vital organs. Unless there's some uncanny dumb luck in play. I could see knife throwing in a pre-modern siege. If there's unarmored (or poorly armored) people at the rear, you could give someone an annoying cut. And perhaps a month or two later in the siege they may die of infection because antibiotics haven't been invented yet... other than that? I don't see it, except for like you said, really weird circumstances.

[@HerrMatom]

@@kathrynck totally on your side here. I brought the Bow and Crossbow up, because i had the feeling that Adam sells knife throwing like an easy feat as in proper defensive Value. He is a master thrower. So if i could i would rather use a lead pipe to defend myself if i had the choice, if you catch my drift.

[@thatonetrashcan1681]

This topic is always rather interesting. I've gotten very good at knife throwing over the years, and I must say I sort of agree with Shad. Now, they're not as useless as they were made out to be in the previous video. However, in a medieval style battle, probably not. There's just too many variables. Your opponent can close the distance in seconds, and if their reaction time is good enough, they can probably move out of the way in time. A throwing knife is probably good as a secondary, but they should not be relied on in a fight

[@soundrogue4472]

Not to mention the sling was used more than a throwing knife, and used more effectively with throwing rocks at your opponent.

[@bayoubilly5176]

I think of this like "where DnD got it right". The thieves Guild could probably use em. Back in Victorian and before that was some vicious internal army battles. Improv armour etc. Throwing knives would probably be very useful close quarter running house to house battles. Well NOT attracting the local constabulary. Heh

[@yami-131]

I fully agree. my only criticism of shad's previous video was that it made knife throwing to seem completely useless but that is because Shad tends to look at things only or rather mostly in the context of a medieval battlefield. in which case I would agree that it would be useless. but Adams video (whilst also agreeing that it should not be used as a primary weapon and that it is nothing like how it's shown in games and movies) is about the fact that it can be useful as a defensive and offensive tool or even just as a deterrent. especially when trying to avoid a fight or just slow down the opponent. I agree with that completely.

[@yami-131]

@@soundrogue4472 I don't think that is a good comparison. slings and bows are ranged weapons in nature and they cannot be used in close range because the wind up time is simply too long. rocks are effective but not so much against soft targets with clothing on top. yes it can hurt but honestly small rocks are only really effective if you can hit the head or maybe the hand which are both hard to hit. so I believe that the throwing knife can fill that niche in nicely, because first of all it looks much more intimidating so it can draw attention, and secondly any hit you land will be noticeable unless the other person is fully berserk. but it's not a massively powerful weapon, and it's not a guaranteed fight stopper with the first throw. which is why context matters. the fact is even against lightly armored opponents throwing knives are not a good Idea in the midst of combat. but as a deterrent or distraction in a single fight? they can be very effective

[@antonius.martinus]

I think that goes along for any knife, I don't think anybody had their knife, dagger or short sword as their primary weapon in a medieval battlefield

[@ianzhang8200]

Have you considered a 1 v 1 scenario where both combatants are aggressive and armed with a sword, but one trained his off-hand to throw knives? Seems to me like it's more appropriate to think of throwing knives an added tool in the toolbox rather than a stand-alone weapon style. Maybe a video discussing the viability of (2 swords) vs (1 sword + throwing knives) vs (1 sword + parrying knife) etc. would make an interesting follow-up.

[@Isaiah-ft5nx]

Adam C said in his video that throwing knives are a side arm.

[@MoltenMouseMetal]

It's been shown, two swords of comparable length are inferior to a two-handed sword unless you're fighting in highly constrained areas like inside a keep. In combat, not an ambush or assassination, someone in heavy gambeson or greater armor with an open-face helmet has a small area where a knife is likely to cause a debilitating injury. Against someone with a closed helmet or sword and shield and it would need to be a one-in-a-million throw. Throwing hard enough to attempt to get deep into even cloth armor is a highly telegraphed motion, unlike a crossbow that has zero warning before launching a projectile.

[@SilenMonser]

Don't forget: You have Viggo Mortensen who played Aragorn in the LOTR movies with actual sword fight training accidentally deflect a thrown knife in the first movie, prompting the director to keep that shot b/c of how cool and unexpected it was (the knife was supposed to miss but the thrower messed up). Although it's a movie and it was known that a knife would be thrown (although it was supposed to safely, completely miss Viggo), it presents that someone trained in sword fighting and is in the fighting mentality has the opportunity to also deflect a thrown object. While a video discussion would be interesting, it would need to take into account luck/opportunity. Not every fighter walks in aware of their opponent's skills and weapons, and you should never willingly show your skills or style unless you want to non-verbally shout to your opponent "Look! Here's how to beat me!"

[@JustWhyFFS]

This. People are acting like it's meant as a main weapon. Or that it worked like it does in the movies, with the main character taking out 5 baddies with guns while only armed with a couple kamikoto kitchen knives, thrown accurately at 50 yds. It's simply one more tactic available, once trained (like anything else, without training, it's useless.) Used to create space to flee or to create an opening in your opponents defense. Is it like the movies? No. Is it as useless as he claims in as many situations as he thinks? Also no. Another point I'd like to bring up (and that applies to all weapons used throughout history) is that if they weren't useful, they wouldn't have been created in high quantities in the first place. These aren't some "one-off" finds from an obscure civilization. Countless examples exist throughout history (which we still find relics of today) and I would imagine the resources and skill needed to make them, wouldn't have been the easiest to come by. So would the time and resources have been wasted on creating something that wasn't combat effective? In times when your survival depends on the things you carry and how you wield them? Doesn't seem likely.

[@Cheezmonka]

@@MoltenMouseMetal I'm sorry, it's been shown *where* that two swords of comparable length are inferior to a two-handed sword? Those are both very broad phrases and I imagine that it would be fairly easy to think of scenarios which would fit the narrative in either direction.

[@jasmineirwin7166]

The thing with spin technique is that it’s mostly all about your distance from target. (A little bit of how fast you spin it.) and it’s difficult to judge the distance normally let alone in the middle of a fight. Which is why the no throw technic is better because it doesn’t matter how far or close it’s all in your throwing.

[@lrmmorgan]

Knives are effective in combat, if you attach them to a long pole..oh wait, that's a spear!!

[@SuperEndiku]

My guess is that one clip at the end showing a throwing knife expert actually landing those same distance shots could have diffused Adam's feeling that you were dissing throwing knives and not making a joke at your own inadequacy.

[@justinthompson6364]

Punctuating each attempt with someone else's successful throw could elevate the gag actually

[@SuperEndiku]

@@justinthompson6364 Now that's god-tier self-deprecating humor. :)

[@Broockle]

being comprehensive for a global audience is hard

[@ameritus9041]

I have to agree, but at the same time there will always be people who don't get the joke

[@BigChunkOfFuckOffCunt77]

I worked at a firearms store and the other employees disputed the 21 foot range gun v. knife, we measured 21 feet and (using a blue solid plastic training "gun" and a stapler for the knife) they used every type of holster we had available, including a competition speed holster and the closest anyone got to shooting me was the speed holster and they only got the gun up to waist hight and I was already close enough to push the gun away and stab them. This was all with them knowing it was coming, imagine if you aren't ready for it. That is why (and people get all up in arms about these situations) police and military are trained that a knife in close range is considered deadly force, and you can respond accordingly... also sometimes you can bring a knife to a gun fight.

[@FazekasPK]

I worked with the police before, as armorer. We tested this same stuff as well. If the gun user stays stationary, sure, dead, knife wins. If the gun user backs off, running away for a fev meters, then the gun wins every time! Add a bit of cover usage to the situation and the knife has no chance at all. Try it out with airsoft (for safety reasons) a you will see.

[@BigChunkOfFuckOffCunt77]

@@FazekasPK yes of course but also we were balancing the person knowing full well the knife attacker was coming at them, most encounters like that will never be stationary or the same as in the ability to back off or not, do you know the attack is coming, is the perp or cop GROSSLY out of shape? Many factors but generally as taught by law enforcement and military the knife is a deadly weapon at close quarters irregardless of situation. In my martial arts school we also used black markers/white tees while knife training so you would see when you got stabbed and slashed... people would be really surprised how easily and fast you can get messed up in a knife attack.

[@FazekasPK]

@@BigChunkOfFuckOffCunt77 i aggree abot knife lethality, but does your police not have yearly physical exsams to take? (mine does, we don't have many obese cops)

[@BigChunkOfFuckOffCunt77]

@@FazekasPK most departments don't have annual PT exams you have to pass... SWAT teams and special units usually always have PT exams to stay in the unit but most departments it's up to the individual officers to maintain their weight/appearance, thanks to unions it's hard to dismiss an average cop with a weight problem.

[@BigChunkOfFuckOffCunt77]

@@FazekasPK why can't most people have a good civil discord and sharing of personal experiences and training like this? I appreciate this conversation! Cheers! 🍻

[@FullOnGritz]

Having watched a few of Adam's videos, I have some thoughts on the context of where the concept of throwing knives is useful in certain combat niches. As a primary "Weapon" having the skill to throw improvised weapons is a use if that is all you have (Assuming you have several to throw). Things like screw drivers, butter knives, and scissors could really mess someone up if you have a tool kit, are in the kitchen, or happen to have your recreational throwing knives on you; assuming you still hold on to something as not to completely disarm yourself. Particularly if you are ambushing someone. Outside of that, it's not a primary weapon, however it really never has to be. Adam has also shown techniques being able to hold and throw several knives in one hand with his "No reload throwing". This technique could be great for shock value in duels to get the other combatant to make mistakes if you also have them facing the point of your primary weapon. It would not even be all that easy to discern that you would be holding multiple throwing weapons. Even just getting one throw off at a distance is enough to feint other throws to get a reaction. Of course this assumes your primary weapon is one handed and you are forgoing any defensive capabilities of your free hand to do this. That being said, it's not a primary "Combat" weapon, definitely not comparably to a battlefield weapon like the plumbata. but the honed skill itself could come in niche combat situations.

[@tenpennygrim5884]

Had a karate instructor demonstrate this decades ago during one class where he picked up a glass ashtray and asked if anyone thought it would be an effective weapon. He then proceeded to throw it at a chair so hard that it blew the back of the chair out and slammed into the padded wall with enough force to be quite scary.

[@yomauser]

If the main idea of throwing knives is just to distract the opponent or to make him react in some way before the real attack, then that can be done with simple stones or sticks that can be found anywhere, and with which you do not need to have any advanced training for that, and you will still have the knife in your hand.

[@SophisticatedDogCat]

Comments like this one always make me laugh, watching people twist themselves into pretzels trying to justify a fraction of a fraction of possibly good aspect of a weapon while neglecting the other 99 terrible things about it.

[@OctaviaLIVE]

@@yomauser tbf people usually forget to mention that the point is to distract and/or maim a target. if someone blocks their face with their arms as shad showed in the original video and they hit their arm instead and the person throwing the knives is well trained, they still have massive cuts in their arm and possibly still knives sticking in them. if he had mentioned use of a shield that would be more fair for the argument.

[@yomauser]

@@OctaviaLIVE If the main objective of throwing knife is just to distract before the real blow, then it doesn't matter if a knife cut, get stuck or main a target, the important is that the enemy is distracted or with his defense is broken for a few seconds before you close the gap, you can do that with stones or sticks at any distance without special training, and you will still have the knife in your hand ready to use it. For me a long time training how to throw a knife is pointless if you can do that with a regular stone, that can also work if the foe has helmet on, as it was done in medieval duels.

[@stephentomsky9576]

43:00 back in the day the Mythbuster's did a thing on "bringing a knife to a gun fight" and it was surprising how far apart they had to be for the gun to be successfully drawn.

[@Werewolfwrath]

I still burst out laughing at their first attempt, where Jamie trips in the middle of his lunge.

[@TrickinNinja]

Can you draw a sword faster than you can draw a gun? Can you run faster than you can throw?

[@dearcastiel4667]

To be fait tho, it was with a gun that needed to be cocked and the security removed manually. If they tried with a gun that had a bullet already in the chamber and just a grip safety it would have been better.

[@supernova719]

@@dearcastiel4667 A firearm is generally not kept in condition 1 though. You shouldn’t have a round chambered or the safety off until you intend to fire

[@memeier9894]

@@supernova719 what?

[@Monjijii]

Even though I agree with pretty much all points, there is something that bugged me, even though the effective range is 2-7/8 m that doesn't mean that you have to start your throw when hes in that range, if you can see someone charging at you and hes 20m away you can surely throw the knife at the right time to hit him mid charge and have another weapon ready in hand before he arrives.

[@tiagodagostini]

@Part-Time Gamer A sword has multiple functiosn as well. TO look cool in an uniform is the most common one. Second is to larp, 3rd is trying to kill a coachroach that entered your room (yes I have done that :P )

[@user-tzzglsstle585e38]

@Part-Time Gamer He literally agreed in most of Adam's points about throwing weapon's usage though, the thing about here is that he's specifying (like a hundred times in this video) about battlefield use in which it is not really that effective even against just padded armor and especially shield. Edit: Knives have multiple uses as tools and as weapons, but Swords don't have just 'one' use, it's slashing and parrying as you said but also for stabbing, bludgeoning or cutting dem shrubs in some swords. Well either way; that doesn't really determine a weapons practicality in certain context, a polearm IS the one that only has 1 or 2 puposes but still is a dominant battlefield weapon.

[@synthemagician4686]

​@Part-Time Gamer While a sword has only one function? Slashing and the "odd parry" are the swords bread and butter? I mean, let's look at how many types of swords there are, and the differences in use for each type of sword, it's a huge variation and the generalization of swords here is a fallacy mirrored by your stance on thrown weapons. I mean no disrespect at all, semantics are a bitch, maybe I read some words wrong and so I didn't catch your intent correctly, just wanna share my thoughts on the matter, again no disrespect meant, let's talk see if we can come up with ideas that might educate each other and make us re-evaluate our perspectives no matter where we land on what we believe. The "odd parry" Is such an interesting take/phrase. Can I ask for clarification on what your mean by that? Is it like parrying wasn't a common thing, it was mostly offensive combat? Parrying wasn't generally very effective? Or most people weren't trained well enough to properly parry? Or perhaps when in a unit, parrying was less of a thing for any reason? Truly curious what you meant there. I do want to agree with some point you made. Dodging really any projectile from a skilled user is going to be very hard, and relying on ones ability to dodge a projectile is an absolute fallacy, especially with someone skilled like Adam tossing a knife at you, you're almost certainly getting hit. Hope you got good armor, or a shield, something to tank that blow because dodging that is not happening. Anyone who says they can dodge it isn't aware of how quick projectiles are versus the human body when used with skill (And yes, Shad's tests absolutely have some serious flaws in this department, you were right, he doesn't fully get throwing weapons as far as throwing knives are concerned). Also, throwing knives being concealed and doing damage up close, yes, of course they would be very effective at that. Almost anything that can be concealed and reasonably cause any kind of damage is gonna do just as well in that aspect, and just about any weapon can be concealed. If you get the drop on an enemy, you have a massive advantage regardless of weapon or era, so that's more a general combat principle than a specific advantage to the throwing knife. You say thrown weapons are usually daggers, which absolutely is not true, but I feel you have a point that I'd like to expand on about daggers. The technical definition of a dagger can include all throwing knives, however, not all daggers are throwing knives, some daggers are absolute garbage to throw and will be useless. A huge difference is daggers can have cross guards or handle swelling or other modifications of the handle for some hand protection and to prevent the users hand from slipping which would result in cutting the users hand, or losing grip of the weapon entirely, whereas throwing knives opt to not have these modifications, at least to such extremes, in order to increase aerodynamics and make them more specialized for throwing, not for melee combat. Daggers (Knives really) are like swords, there's a huge variation meant for different purposes. A throwing knife has a lot of purposes, just not straight up melee, that's a dumb idea. But throwing knives are really only limited by your planning and creativity. You absolutely can use them effectively in combat, and the more creative you are, the more you think ahead, the better they become. Just like a flashbang in modern combat, it's a tool to increase combat effectiveness, not a true weapon like a sword or rifle. I will say there is absolutely overlap with daggers on throwing and melee useage, or even utilitarian use, but any overlap takes away from any primary function. A throwing knife is obviously still a knife and can inflict lethal damage, I'd put it above a kitchen knife for sure for combat as it is generally far more durable, but purely looking at the melee aspect of a throwing knife? Not really a good option for melee specifically, especially when compared with a lot of other daggers that were specialized for melee combat such as a main gauche that allowed for more defense, but flip side, try to throw a main gauche and you'll look like an idiot and almost never cause any damage. Also dagger-like throwing weapons are not the main throwing weapons in any part of history at all, spear type weapons are your main thrown weapons for a majority of human history. Javelins, pilums, even spears launched out of an atl-atl as long as you still consider that thrown and not propelled as with arrows and bolts, but yeah spear type weapons were always easier and cheaper to make, and way more deadly. I'd love to see throwing knives take down mammoths and whales, spear type weapons were always the main thrown weapons. Hell even pebbles were used in combat way more than throwing knives, slings are terrifying and way more effective in combat than throwing knives, also cheap as hell. Seriously, look into slings, they are so under-rated, baleric slingers were one of the coolest cultures to have used the sling and to such insane levels that throwing knives seem like a joke in every capacity when compared to a pebble and a piece of cloth.

[@mynameiswritinwater]

Still : throwing knives at long range would have to deal with dodges, being deflected (shield weapon or bracers) and a loss of Inertia, even before having to penetrate armour and wounding the target. Plus the difficulty of timing your spinning throw... Someone really skilled might manage most of that, but all ?

[@Monjijii]

@@mynameiswritinwater You dont have to to spinning throw, that is the point

[@walkingcar5970]

I'd love to see Shad break down Tohm Merrilin's use of knives. Especially since Oz started reading the books

[@randlebrowne2048]

I think that the main reason why Thom uses knives is the fact that he's an entertainer. Knives are easily concealed, and won't scare away his audience! Matt also uses knives a lot; but, in actual battle, he mostly uses either a bow, crossbow, staff or his ashendari (glaive/naginata).

[@NotoriusMaximus]

they always use their second-best knives for all series

[@guardsmanom134]

I'm a martial artist and I actually have some experience in real-world combat. In real-world combat, everything moves, and moves quickly. Furthermore, injuries will cause a brief period of shock, that opens one to another attack. A thrown knife can make an effective weapon at short ranges, although it is a gamble. Historically, knives were seldom thrown (except in certain Eastern circles), because most people were wearing heavy clothes that hung loosely. A moving target that has loosely fitting clothing and is armed as well, tends to be a bit more than a thrown knife can take down. A sword, would be a whole different situation, and therefore has no place as a part of the discussion. We can all agree, a thrown sword at throwing distances, is immediately lethal(throwing distance assumes that you are competent in throwing a blade, but only in the range that is point on and lethal). Being that I have experienced the unfortunate situation of having been stabbed, I can say that a blade in you at any distance, is enough to stop your end of any fight. Even if it is just one inch into your body. A cut will hurt and piss you off. An inward stab, will stupify you and paralyze your body momentarily. In summary, thrown knives have their place. They are not long range weapons. They are not for use against an armored opponent. They have no ability for use in a field sized battle. However, in a building, or in urban environments; it could be very effective, especially if your opponent is not equally armed or armored. Imho, I would think it a grand experiment, if we could get the analog to test every possibility.

[@ghanaboyz]

Glad to read the "a blade in you at any distance, is enough to stop your end of any fight. Even if it is just one inch into your body.". Agree on "In summary, thrown knives have their place". The initial/intro part of the previous shadiversity video on the subject was provocingly silly anyways and unnessarily so. It side tracked the disucssion. There may be valid arguments now, but his giggling does not help.

[@tshymt]

"I can say that a blade in you at any distance, is enough to stop your end of any fight. Even if it is just one inch into your body." No, it isn't. Not "any fight" at least. Being that I have experienced the unfortunate situation of having been stabbed, it took several seconds to even notice that I got stabbed. If it was in a fight, I could have done some attacks to an opponent in those seconds.

[@guardsmanom134]

@tshymt we all like to think that. I thought so too, but a knife in my Abdominal Viena Cava, taught me different. I'm not a softy. Let's humble that shit right out. I don't profess to be any less tough than anyone else. I've been shot. I've been stabbed. I've seen the other side and stepped back from that abyss. And I was still stunned momentarily- long enough for the guy to have finished me, if he'd not been in shock at what he'd done. That, or he was so high, he didn't even register that I was still alive... Yes, I chased the guy out of the house I was living in, but he had a ten-foot head start! How long does it take you to walk ten feet? A lot can happen in that short amount of time, when you are in enough shock that the other guy is able to pull the knife out of you. Js, reality shows that there is a few seconds where you're still registering what just happened. That happened to me, and with as many times as I have been hurt that bad, I can say it happens every time without fail.

[@snaiwa]

Enough of endless talking. Now test it ! Adam Celadin is world champion, he's quite one of the best knife thrower we can find. Now we just have to find a HEMA champion, and apply theory to practice to get the final answer !

[@jaydunbar7538]

The final answer is already in the history books, it’s a niche use that could save your life but it’s unlikely so training time is best used for just about anything else.

[@helgenlane]

Well, considering that the main use of the throwing knives is to give you an opportunity to run away, the person who can run faster would win.

[@Spiceodog]

In my view, they’re a fine secondary weapon, but go into a fight thinking of them as your primary weapon your probably going to lose. It’s also not really a battlefield weapon. But then you had to be disrespectful and compare them to nunchucks.

[@duuuuuuuuuh135315]

Been on many battlefields have ya?

[@Spiceodog]

@@duuuuuuuuuh135315 no but neither has shad I assume

[@grilledleeks6514]

@@duuuuuuuuuh135315 you never have anything of value to say, do you?

[@traphimawari7760]

@@duuuuuuuuuh135315 neither do you, but then again we are all free to have opinions, and the validity of the opinions won't depend on the person but their thoughts and how it appeals to the majority, and he is correct the majority agrees that you can't compare a nun chuck to a throwing knife, this is an apples to oranges situation they are literally two different things in a lot of sense, its not like comparing flails to nun chucks, a throwing knife does not even fall in the same category as a chained or combined arms, its a throwable weapon like a rock or a bomb

[@livedandletdie]

@@duuuuuuuuuh135315 No but I could kill a man in 4 seconds with a knife. That's a lot faster than most other people could. Throwing daggers/knives are weapons purely made to maim the enemy, not to kill, unless you can hit a vital point, they're completely useless, and if you were armor your vitals are protected.

[@Rekaert]

I can more get behind the idea of a Shuriken, because it's less a pure weapon and more a deterrent and distraction. It can be thrown on the run, or in retreat, and the nature of it means not having to worry particularly about the weapon's orientation. While it can be thrown over-hand, it can also be thrown in a reverse palm, as if giving a sharp sideways Nazi salute. In that it gets away from having to judge the spin, and is not prone to a rushing target completely borking your well-judged spin timing. But it's not a killing weapon outside of a really lucky hit, or a delayed death if poisoned. It seems more a wounding weapon to give a pursuer something to think about, or several can be thrown prior to a melee engagement to distract and hurt them in order to impose a disadvantage. But, you'd better have a melee weapon at the ready too because within a second of throwing them, you're in a fight. They seem so situational though, and a reasonable level of armour renders them almost entirely pointless, (pun!). The only time I can see a throwing knife as remotely viable is two combatants similarly armed, where one has developed off-hand throwing reliably enough to land a pre-fight wound by throwing it. But even then, he's giving up his off-hand weapon to take a chance on a single attack. The more you consider it, the more it seems like an act of desperation. Perhaps better to hang on to it and use it like a main gauche.

[@mr.mcgurt2679]

But, you are overlooking the situation where a dying enemy has a hold of your leg and won't let go, then a knight you want to kill stops 9 meters from you and pulls his breastplate up, and all you have is a knife. Then what?

[@crunchykeks7824]

You need to learn the knive throwing skill first. +5 damage for throwing knives +10 charisma

[@manikaditha6308]

+10 coolness

[@ameritus9041]

I find it funny how so many commenters on your last video hyped up Adam's video as some radically different take, and after watching it he basically comes to the same conclusion you do and it really wasn't that different. It's a decent backup. It's not a good battlefield weapon, except situationally as a last resort. And it's a decent weapon for non battlefield situations as a distraction so you can run away or close for an attack. He didn't really disagree with anything except for the conclusion resulting from those points and that's because you all are looking at them from the perspective of a primary battlefield weapon and he was looking at them more from the perspective of a civilian use tool/weapon. So of course for his use case criteria they're good, and for your use case they're not. Didn't seem to be particularly ground breaking.

[@DulocGuardsman]

Now this is what i called *CONTEXT*

[@SameM1stakes]

@@DulocGuardsman What do you call it now?

[@ArcticWolfGod]

Yeah pretty much. I had seen Adam's video earlier and thought the same. It just seems like most if not all of his disagreements are just misunderstanding what Shad was actually saying.

[@ohauss]

By that logic, we'd have to say a longsword isn't that useful a weapon. But it's quite evident that in the right circumstances, it is. But on a battlefield, it's at best third choice. Does that make it useless? Battlefields aren't necessarily the standard to measure weapons by, as they are extremely specific situations that differ dramatically from personal one-on-one combat.

[@SCP.343]

@@ohauss no, because you only isolated one point of criteria from Shad's argument to make it seem like he was saying something that he wasn't. Did you even watch the video?

[@ADwarvenBard]

These videos are great, thanks Shad! I always love your content! Still, I’d kill to get a vid of you sparring this knife throwing guy!

[@tamaskisparti5294]

A respectful video defending yr points while correcting some of his. Thank you. The only aspect that wasn't mentioned by neither of you is silenc compared to bow and arrow that has some more noise I think, so maybe it can be used for silent killing.

[@RauMins]

I feel like knife throwing could work if you pair it up with another weapon, such as a nunchuck which could be used to flail it like a helicopter blades, causing you to lift up, thus placing you at a safe distance from the offending swordsman and giving you time to throw as many knives as you had with you.

[@matthewhebbert9712]

Hahahah! Bravo. 🎉

[@Spyro_76]

Sounds 100% historically accurate.

[@fireteammichael1777]

Yes police routinely train at drawing and firing sidearm at like a 7m distance, as like you said, such distances can be closed frightfully quick. And drawing and firing a handgun, I think, is faster and more effective than the act of attempting to go through the motions of throwing a knife.

[@handlesrstupid123]

Yes firearms are objectively better weapons in all self dedense and even most military situations

[@Serahpin]

Yes, this is why swords are obsolete and I don't know why people still make videos about them.

[@lilspicy8653]

Obviously knives can't compete with guns overall but I seriously doubt that pulling out and firing a gun is quicker than pulling and thorwing a knife. Would like to see some tests though. There are more actions to be done when drawing and firing a gun.

[@Darthescar98]

@@lilspicy8653 The gun is definitely faster. For both the gun and the knife, you likely keep it at your side, you grab it, and then pull it out. If you have a gun, you simply point it forward and pull the trigger as soon as it's pointed forward. Wirh a knife, you move it backwards . Whether or not using two hands to prepare and fire a gun is faster than throwing a knife is questionable, but if it's ready to fire, shooting is definitely quickerand then forward, which is two motions. The only way that's faster is if the gun isn't ready to fire, and even then that can be prepared with the other hand.

[@Darthescar98]

Apologies for the poor text arrangement. The comment text box is very much bugging out for me after the first line. Basically, gun is one motion unless it's not ready to shoot, knife is two motions

[@FreekyPower]

dude i didnt know you had the sword i listened to your book so often and the sword looks almost exactly like i imagined i loove that book so much

[@tranquilthoughts7233]

On short distances a human can fairly easily reach a burst speed of 5 to 6m/s. In other words, with celadins stated distance of 6m for a reliable no-spin throw he'd have to get a disabling throwing knive hit in on his opponent within a literal second and probably still have to parry or dodge the strike that will still be incoming from sheer momentum.

[@Fenris86]

I can't speak for knives but on an interview with a former police officer I heard they keep quite a distance (I think it was more than ten meters) to an armed person, so if they get rushed they can fire at least once to disable the assailant. And a gun is not only quicker, but far more lethal than a thrown knife. EDIT: Shad mentioned exactly that at around 43:00

[@gameragodzilla]

Yeah, that’s the Tueller Drill and the basic idea is within 21 feet, a knife wielding assailant can close the distance before an officer can successfully draw his gun out of his holster and aim it at the threat. However, I can see the throwing knife being less of an issue if you already have it in your hand and can immediately throw, the same way the Tueller Drill doesn’t apply anymore once you have the gun in your hand in a low ready position. Much faster to get on target then. So maybe just dual wielding knives and throwing one works best.

[@poquu1081]

As Adam said they can be thrown with no-spin at twice that range it just require more training, but Shad is for some reason completly ignoring that and going with the up to 7m range

[@tumage8592]

As a Football player I can Tell you, if an unarmed person is hostile towards you, you would need 5 meters room at least to do anything. 3 m is nothing, and even if you would blow this guys head Off, His body would still hit you. If this Person now is armed with a knife, you would be hit there. And thats if you know what your doing. 10 meters while having a gun pointed at them sounds reasonable, because you are also in a good distance to hit them

[@xXCORRONXx]

Shad! When's the next Chronicles of Everfall coming! I listened to your novel on audible and thoroughly enjoyed it, sincerely hoping more is in the works

[@shadiversity]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZ7PgqiHo5aEbZo&t

[@mrdeadlybootz5414]

Agreed, I've been spreading out my copy to anybody that would read it more than STDs at a brothel. Can't wait for the sequel, own both in Audible and paperback.

[@tragobenehman3571]

I listened to ist like 3 times and it always catches me. The worldbuilding is so good that every time i listened I discovered more things about the world. Overall a great book.

[@daedalus5253]

Plus translate it to German. I would love to read it but can‘t.

[@dallenhumpherys7911]

I like Shad, but I think his book was pretty trash. I have no intention of reading any more books in the series. To anyone who hasn't read the book, the comments section is a bit of an echo chamber, so don't pay attention to these comments that hype the book up. The book is not very good. It has some interesting worldbuilding and the combat and weapons stuff is done well, but it is still not a good book. I strongly do not recommend it. I hope to save some of you by offering another perspective from the comments that always get pinned. Shad, I like your channel, but don't let all of these comments make you think your book is better than it is. And I know that I am not the only one who doesn't like the book, just perhaps the only one who would comment about it here.

[@heathmorris6100]

Shad its awesome that you take these response videos in good faith and are respectful in your own responses. Too many creators are quick to assume people are just attacking them and go for insults and mud slinging over actual conversation and consideration. Good on you man!

[@baziwan9407]

If you want an example, albeit a graphic one(you've been warned), of how far someone can move even after receiving a catastrophically lethal strike, then go watch the Rittenhouse shooting. The second individual who struck him with a skateboard, received a rifle round at point blank(barrel in the chest). After the shot he then runs 12 feet away, this is after his heart has been torn apart from a rifle round and he has 0% chance of survival at this point. In that 12 feet if he was a committed attacker with a sword, a lethal strike will still arrive at your body.

[@donflamingo795]

That's why you have follow up shots

[@XBullitt16X]

Ayyy Shad finally responded to that genuinely good response video, reminds me of OG KZbin video responses, love it.

[@DigitalAwakening]

I think you two mostly agree. Throwing knives are a distraction not a primary weapon. The knives you have Shad are kunai, they are not meant to be thrown.

[@gradesam6306]

I've seen another type of shuriken that is supposedly more effective than the stars one but also more difficult to throw called bo-shuriken, they're basically thin metal spikes with variable lengths. I'm quite interested to hear your take on that Shad.

[@cupajoe3655]

Hey Shad! Been watching for a while now and I’m wondering if you could cover the practicality or usefulness in combat of a rope dart!

[@thatguyattable6855]

With, or without the rope?

[@Dukeofvampires1]

Another interesting point: when using a pistol against opponent running at you even from 10-15m, it is not always possible to stop the attacker in time and they can still land a hit. There are certain techniques law enforcements and military uses. I doubt that knife in the gut have more stopping power then few rapid shots.

[@andreas_rr]

exactly. throwing knives are basically the pistol equivalent to middle ages. sure a bow is a better ranged weapon, but throwing knives are still valid as much as pistols are valid next to rifles, machine guns etc. they're small, easy to carry and make a great backup

[@nguyenp.nguyen7896]

Yes. Officers can't even shoot as accurate as a civilian with serious training under stress

[@willek1335]

Shad puts it in a medieval battle field context. You speak about modern firearms. The knife guy speaks about it in an urban environment, where I assume by his accent, firearms are not common. This feels as sloppy as kindergarten trash talking "my dad is better than your dad". It would be interesting to see people with the balls to meet and duke it out in a contest. Alas, this is not the type of community to do that.

[@Dukeofvampires1]

@@willek1335 don't think you got my point at all

[@cdgonepotatoes4219]

Yeah. At those ranges where a throwing knife is optimal, best call is to enter out of sight or out of mind because even if your opponent is already a dead man walking when he shanks you, he still shanked you. Preparing to throw a knife and drawing a gun are good parallels, you're less prepared to protect yourself from a charging opponent while you're on it and you can only count on their hesitation. In a modern scenario, of course you can't get a drop on your would-be mugger for more than a few reasons, but you can in an adventure sort of scenario you can find some opportunities to ambush with a shot or a throw as an opening or butting in someone else's melee, be out of mind or out of sight until the hit lands.

[@PauldeVrieze]

33:30 The point about "see if someone coming at you aggressively" reminds me of a key part of defense in field hockey. It often is more effective to stay right next to the opponent, or get close to them rather than even trying to take the ball from them. The mere pressure of your presence will reduce the quality of the play, and their freedom of movement. And this is just someone who wants to take a ball away in a sports context, not combat where the stakes are quite a bit higher. Similarly, a strategy for defending penalty corners is to have two runners, one ultra-fast, do or die run as fast as you can, and another a step behind that actually has a bit more time to do things, but is partially given that time by the first rusher. The second defender has much more chance to intercept.

[@tomwalker8944]

To fair fair, I'd also always prefer a throwing axe to a throwing knife. Even a bad throw can still hurt like hell. Hell of a lot more mass to it as well.

[@assortmentofpillsbutneverb3756]

totally agree, thats true for most physical activities. physical pressure is a very potent aspect of athletics

[@transbutterflynick3540]

What so many people dont realize is, the weapon is good. When you are trained and an expert. But only then can it be reliably effective. Prime example being Shads favorite, the nunchucks. If you are well trained and an expert and know how to functionally use them, then they can be quite effective. However the point is any good weapon should automatically make you more effective even with little to no training.

[@Nostripe361]

This is a good point. The best throwing knife users I've usually seen, in games and anime, are usually highly trained users. They also mostly act as assassins, secret body guards, or spies that need something easy to hide, fast to use, and can both kill and distract.

[@transbutterflynick3540]

@@Nostripe361 exactly! Even IRL its not a viable weapon, just a decent distraction.

[@Nostripe361]

@@transbutterflynick3540 Basically these things could be deadly if you did a surprise attack and hit the neck, heart or face of an unarmored foe; especially when coated with poison. Otherwise it’s not too dangerous as primary weapon unless you have anime levels of speed and strength

[@transbutterflynick3540]

@@Nostripe361 yeah basically. And really if you throw that and it hits a wall 30 ft away thats a distraction. If you hit someones arm wether it goes in or not thats a distraction

[@AndrianTimeswift]

For something roughly equivalent to that gigantic throwing star that IS historically accurate, check out the hunga munga/mambele. Not only do they look really cool, but they were actually used in warfare. That said, it's probably more akin to a throwing axe than a throwing knife.

[@MrGedgeman]

Bravo! You and Adam are both fantastic and kind people - it's genuinely refreshing to see an honest discussion & disagreement presented in a gentlemanly way.

[@pichinpichi]

Hi Chad, I was looking for your reaction to Adam's video and I'm not disappointed. I have a historical account of using throwing knives in a combat context. Once I was at an exhibition about WWW I and there were letters from soldiers which they wrote home. I remember one letter from a Czech soldier who was a stormtrooper in the Austrian army on the Italian front. The letter was from the time of the Second Battle of the Piave River. There the author of the letter mentioned using throwing knives in trench storming and mentioned one detail that caught my attention. He mention that they used throwing knives or daggers which were intentionally heavy up to extend it no longer matters if they hit with a blade or handle and could knock out an enemy if hit in the head.

[@zarthemad8386]

... the same war where the banned shotguns... because they were too effective...

[@randlebrowne2048]

@@zarthemad8386 Shotguns didn't actually get banned, though. When the Germans threatened to execute any American shotgunners they captured, the Americans responded by threatening to retaliate against German POWs. The Germans backed down. Of course, this is also the same war in which the Germans were notorious for their use of poison gas and flamethrowers; so, no one was taking German outrage about "humane" weapons of war too seriously!

[@cvmaniac7286]

@@randlebrowne2048 C&Rsenal talks about that whole thing in one of their shotgun videos.

[@thundermarkperun1083]

So at that point, you may as well be throwing a rock at their heads 🤔

[@pichinpichi]

@@thundermarkperun1083 Steel has a bigger density than rock, better handling and there is this pointy end that can hit eventually with greater effect.

[@Westonator5000]

This is like oldschool KZbin. Remember response videos? Great feature, wish it still existed. I've been digging through this channel and a bunch of adjacent ones, awesome stuff.

[@malcanth3481]

I really don't like the "distraction" argument for weapons. Literally anything is a distraction weapon if you throw it at someone. Just watch any movie with Jackie Chan.

[@battlefieldcustoms873]

Please keep disagreeing! This is really been a fun ride so far. I have always been on the fence about throwing knives my whole life and I have been a casual collector. You both remain respectful and cordial even though you still make tiny stabs which keeps the entire thing funny and entertaining. Keep it up and show the world you can be gentleman in a disagreement. edit: I suck as spelling.

[@Runegrem]

Yeah, it's nice to see people discussing things like adults. But the videos could be a bit shorter. It's a lot of repetition and waffling around the subjects.

[@battlefieldcustoms873]

@@Runegrem They do ramble a bit. Is it because they are both passionate? and a bit nerdy? Honestly I was subbed to Shad already and didnt even know the other guy and I am now opened up to a ton of new videos and people I never would have known about. I would like to see them both run a similar course both timed against 2-3 live opponents using some form of safe HEMA type gear and truly see what percentage is it skill and whT is the length of training time required to become an effective skill or defensive technique. Again I really am on the fence. I think its really cool and I really like the smith and Wesson blades. I am going to do an hour of practice tomorrow I really am interested in this no spin thing.

[@rehoboth_farm]

I was kind of hoping that they would just fight and see who lives. My money is on Adam.

[@battlefieldcustoms873]

@@rehoboth_farm setting this with a duel. only us real 1300s kids will remember

[@rehoboth_farm]

@@battlefieldcustoms873 I was thinking about something more like Bartertown. You know, two men enter one man leaves.

[@abcdef27669]

"Knife to meet you! I've heard you have a sharp personality..."

[@debelmeis2311]

Even with a firearm, being able to draw and fire within 20 feet is within range of a attacker closing the distance by sprinting before they can draw and fire under pressure (without moving of course) so it's still 50/50.

[@kizzle_mi_nizzle6069]

Just speculating; but I feel like the context in which it may be worth learning to throw a knife is probably something more as a self defence tactic rather than a battle field tactic in the middle ages or earlier. You have either lost your main defence weapon (probably a sword) or dont have anything more than a knife. You are un-armoured, your agressor is unarmoured. They have a sword or axe or spear, or something substantial. You know that there is no way you are beating a sword with a dagger and you feel that even if you get past the persons gaurd you would still rather take your chances, sticking them with a knife and then grappling with them rather than grappling with the advantage of the knife but without the advantage of a potentially significant wound to your agressor. It makes sense that people might train something like this in the middle ages even if it is only something you would ever use in a last ditch atempt to defend yourself. There are pleanty of people now, practicing martial arts that will train in ground fighting, even though they are never planning on competing and would never want to take a fight to the ground and certianly in the tiny chance that someone does ever try to fight them for real they are training to end that fight before it ever goes to the ground. It can still be cool and fun and practical to practice, even if the chances of ever needing it is not realisticly common.

[@donflamingo795]

This. Make a lot of sense when you think about it this way.

[@ragegaze3482]

In that context you are better off running away than throwing the knife. If you have enough time to throw the knife, you have enough time to start running. In the scenario where running is impossible if you spent that amount of time you spent practicing throwing knives on actually using knives you'd have a higher chance of living than hoping to get lucky with a 1 hit ko.

[@chuckyxii10]

not only are you better off running away, you are much better off using the time to train to throw the knife to train cardio instead. Knife throwing is cool and fun. I learned how to do it myself because I enjoy it certainly more than I enjoy cardio, but it is in no way practical.

[@Direstar_]

No your comment is 100%. Here’s the scenario. You’re in a bar, someone threatens you and has a sword while you have a dagger or a knife, maybe even a kitchen knife on the table. You don’t want to fight and will lose if you do. You try to de-escalate the situation, they’re not backing down, you immediately chuck the knife at them and run. In this scenario you can hit an unarmoured target standing there and cause substantial damage while getting ready to run. In Adams video he literally shows himself with a knife going “Hey stop man, stop” while being prepared to throw a knife. Shad posits that he’d instantly kill Adam, but that’s not how these scenarios play out. Adam is putting forward a self defense scenario against an aggressor, (knives and daggers were carried often for self defense after swords were seen as being unacceptable to carry for self defense but guns weren’t common yet). Shad is putting forward that this scenario is like on the battlefield in war, which it’s not. There was a huge period of time in history where people only carried daggers and knives or a single flintlock pistol, and you’d look like a psycho carrying around full chain mail, a long sword, and a Gambison. And on top of that in the modern day most assaults are either with guns, fists, or knives, and people don’t wear armor anymore. There’s a ton of legal issues with shooting people, even in self defense, but in most US states and on Europe you can carry pocket knives on your person. If tomorrow I went to a party or a bar and a drunk man tried to attack me, throwing my pocket knife into their chest or gut while getting ready to run would 100% get them and be an incredibly strong deterrent for the attack

[@mRibbons]

I literally just finished watching the other dudes video wondering how you'd respond. Awesome stuff. I don't think throwing knives are useless, but rather, they are rarely useful.

[@falmer5639]

Hey shad. Have you ever read the Rangers apprentice? Its a great series I read when I was younger. The main character is an archer and his side weapons are essentially two large throwing knives. He pretty much uses them as knives in combat and just throws if he manages to create the right opening for it.

[@theshadlands1142]

I know Shad has started the Rangers Apprentice, I can't remember if he's finished the first book yet or not. Our oldest son enjoys the series and I made a cloak for him that he shows off on the new channel: The Shadlands kzbin.info/door/fvLHflumHs-9VG3qLV6Y3w

[@betafishjeremy7454]

I read the first 9 books a while back. Great series in my opinion. I really like how the first book deals with a troll and explaining why they are weak to fire where other fictions normally just make them weak to fire because.

[@zombiegamer234]

You both made great points but I believe what it really comes down to is where and when you use them. They're good for backup/opportunity as you can carry a few but yeah not good for primary weapon and not in melee range

[@shadowjewel]

In fairness to Adam, in a modern setting where people are unlikely to have any armour, I think if he did manage to get a body hit with one of those knives (though I think I'd personally call one of those he used most a dart), I think his attacker would be sufficiently injured/distracted to make legging it much more viable. Even if adrenaline carries the attacker through the start of the subsequent chase I don't think they'd keep it up for long. I think in combat terms Shad tends to think in terms of committed warfare or duels, which is often somewhat different to more "casual" combat situations where there is a lot of weighing of the situation, and people are more likely to run or just disengage after only a short engagement. In a more casual situation, a hit from one of those knives is significant.

[@AdlerMow]

I comes about to context. Throwing against an opponent with armor or shield is not going to be much of effect besides as a distraction. But in a civilian brawl (no shield or armor) throwing anything (sand, wine, rocks, hot water) can save your life, specially agaínst mutiple opponents.

[@shadiversity]

But if you have a knife in a civilian brawl, in most cases throwing it is stupid, you would be far more lethal using it normally.

[@AdlerMow]

Yes, is most cases throwing rocks is better. In fact I have yet to see a video on rock throwing, with was an universal practice even in armies up to the gunpowder age. If the club is given merit so should the simple rock! Improvised throwing in general is very useful, specially on adventuring context (not in battlefield). Undehanded tactics, throwing sand or spitting wine to the eyes, throwing rocks when not expected, anything to have an advantage in a fight I guess.

[@jay2ssrstt]

Yes, throw the sand or rock or cup of hot coffee or wine as they make piss poor melee weapons but a half decent distraction. DO NOT throw away the best melee weapon you most likely have on you, a knife. Adam's example of throwing a knife then fumbling to pull his smaller folding pocket knife was hilariously bad. I would have much rather retained them and used the throwing knives defensively given how beefy they are over that pocket knife. You can put a heck of a lot more force into a stab with a knife vs even a perfect throw.

[@mrduck6720]

I wanna take this chance to praise John Wick: The knife throwing scene in Parabellum is so good imo, because almost none of the knife throws, even though they pierce the flesh n all, kill in one hit. Some of the throws fail. Two kills take John like 5 throws. Without a gun, it's really not *that* easy to kill someone whose really fighting back, and it's shown as a ferocious fight to stay alive, instead of always 'one-hit kill, one-hit kill...' I just liked that John Wick showed that it can do more than just have these quick kills all the time. It's not wholly realistic of course, but it was such a huge breath of fresh air in the action genre that was intense, funny and badass all at the same time. Over the top? Yes, but in such a cool and interesting way.

[@davidpavlovic4612]

My favourite thing about this scene was when John threw a knife into a guy’s nuts 😆. After rewatching the scene I also noticed that not every knife landed point first and some were bouncing off of people which is also a very nice bit of added realism

[@scrooge5707]

How cool would it be if he did a video fully on possible throwables in combat As well possible throwing techniques based on speed mainly because, could you throw with a shield? (strapped or center grip) Because I was looking at a few of Todd's workshop videos about war darts and plumbata and what if you could combo the darts on shield with a occupied hand or what else could be either attached to the inside of the shield and able to be effective or what weapons would pair with maybe one of the numerous other throwing weapons I might not know of

[@pluckypluckster]

25:30 it is a step though. standing still is one thing. Keeping your torso between your feet and shifting weight to either lean forward or back is another position, but moving your feet is taking a step. You might not be walking forward or continuing your movement forward but lifting your foot off the ground and moving forward is a step. In order to perform a lunge you have to take a step.

[@christopherknorr2895]

Some of the LARPs I play allow thrown knife-like weapons against a variety of melee weapon and armor set ups, so I've had the chance to test the dynamics here extensively. They are much more forgiving since they score hits on any part of the throwie. Against shields, they are worse than bows/arrows. Against armor, they are mostly useless. Against unarmored, unshielded, they sometimes hit the leg. Mostly useful as a distraction to support your own closing action or that of an ally. Objects thrown by hand are dodgeable and deflectable because their speeds just aren't high enough. As for the throwing then running aspect, this is how they are most viable. Fleeing to the safety of a melee armed teammate is effective. Also very effective when used against an opponent who isn't paying attention to you, as in a thick or chaotic melee with lots of fighters. This gives you the best chance to not get deflected or blocked and also the best chance to beat a hasty retreat.

[@commanderzulu4724]

throwing knives would probably be a good secondary for a ranged warrior. in case they get flanked they can quickly throw a half hazzard knife to delay their opponent by a second, or if calvary get the horse to freak out or evade allowing you enough time to get to your army's back line and let them engage the flanking soldiers

[@duje44]

you are throwing sponge like objects, they have no mass and have big drag

[@commanderzulu4724]

@@duje44 1) larp weapons still have decent weight because they have a solid core. 2) talking about drag actually gives more credit to them as they are throwing a replica that is slower and has less distance yet still are able to get effective use of the weapon as a ranged weapon in the instances they described. 2.5) less mass means less force, means it has less distance, so more drag and assuming less mass the larp knife would have been slower and have less distance. Which again lends more strength to their original point 3) Shad uses larp type daggers in his throwing dagger examples in this video

[@christopherknorr2895]

@@duje44 You're right, so they're more dodgeable and deflectable, which is pretty well offset by the fact that even the hilt scores a hit. In the larp they're portrayed as way more dangerous than they would be relatively in a real fight.

[@NClark-lp3bq]

The way I see it Shad has especially high respect for knives/daggers in combat but very low opinions for throwing knives, I'm just like: 'knife abilities: slash & thrust in close combat' vs. 'throwing knife abilities: slash and thrust in close combat + the option to throw since it is properly weighted for such', so like how would it not be a preferable secondary especially if trained in such...

[@shadiversity]

As I mentioned, there are valid uses for throwing a knife, just not as a primary weapon or first option or in close range.

[@TheRedHaze3]

Well first of all, the special throwing knives Adam uses for the no-spin technique would be horrible as close combat weapons. Second of all, you'd almost always be better off holding on to the knife, so the added option of being able to throw it isn't really that important. Even if it was, though, it's so unlikely that you'd do significant damage (at least in Shad's mind) that you should only throw it as a distraction, so what does it matter if the knife is properly weighted or not?

[@Mystery_Cultist]

The type of knife probably comes most into play there. Something with a guard I imagine would end up less balanced and much less effective to throw but would excell in deflecting blows while also being lethal within its range. A metal spike or balanced knife might throw better but would struggle to achieve the versatility of the former.

[@atk9989]

@@Mystery_Cultist also depends on the use, remember that there are swords with no blades and just a point that are ment for use against plate mail. Which those knifes are better suited for then the knife you take camping. Also I have a bowie knife as long as my elbow to my plam with a small hand guard and even I being pretty bad at it can throw and stick that knife better then most of my "actual" throwing knifes. I'd say the weight of the knife matters less than your practice at using it and knowing exactly how it will move. A couple thousand throws and you should be able to throw it point on from any distance regardless of weight.

[@shawnwolf5961]

@@TheRedHaze3 It is important in the context of "do they make good primary weapons," so this argument is moot.

[@sheldonbarfield90]

Does adding some sort of ribbon in the loop of the throwing knife cause it to correct like the darts? I imagine it wouldn't work as well as the fletching.

[@lperkins2]

Worth noting your opening to this video actually supports Adam's case very well. Your video is on youtube at 50 fps, his is at 30 fps. From first sign of aggression, it takes you 60 frames to begin your strike (sword moving forward such that it's a problem even if you intantly dropped). That is 1.2 seconds. From the "low ready" position, he is about 18 frames, or 0.6 seconds to the knife leaving his hand. From the "high ready" position (which you would expect him to use as you approach in an offensive stance, or at the 5 second mark when you switch to an offensive stance), it's 9 frames, or 0.3 seconds. That leaves him nearly a full second to _run away_ , which is what he suggested he'd likely be wanting to do. Meanwhile, you'll _have_ to deal with the knife. While you could parry the knife, it wouldn't be the easiest thing to do. The total time in flight to cover your demonstration distance is less than 9 frames, which is 0.3 seconds (which means a total time of less than 0.6 seconds, half the time you need to be striking), with it not spinning, it's like trying to catch the very tip of your opponent's sword, not impossible, but not trivial. The time required on both sides is _less_ than the average reaction time of untrained to moderately trained people, maybe a second and a half if you can manage a distraction. This means either party is likely to get their initial attack off uncontested if _they_ strike first (which means both parties are strongly encouraged _not_ to parley). This _doesn't_ mean the general criticism of throwing knives as a warfare discipline isn't valid. The time it takes to learn to throw a knife with the accuracy and short windup _could_ be spent learning to use a sword, or a bow, or even a sling, and while cheaper than a sword, the knives are more expensive than a spear or sling. And has the rather obvious problem of leaving the knife thrower with an empty hand. The only real advantage it has is in being small and easily concealed. _That_ said, if we postulate someone who has spent the time to learn the skill, the first knife is going to be making contact (with you or with your sword) between your right foot leaving the ground and taking your first step. The second knife as your left foot is coming down, and still 0.2 seconds before you begin your strike.

[@stilgar11235813]

I know a fencer in the sca who can literally clear 5m in a blink of an eye. he would faint to get you to blink then ping you in the head before your flinch was done.

[@ArifRWinandar]

I like how Oz is like a journalist doing an interview, giving Shad questions that the viewers might have.

[@Xirque666]

As a Viking age reenactor that is active in living history, I've thrown my share of axes, and though that skill away as well. And every day I've been asked the same question: Would the "vikings" have used a throwing axe, witch is both easier to learn and more effective than thrown knives and daggers, and my short answer is "no, they wouldn't, unless in very spesific situation, and only if they had an axe that were made for throwing as an extra". Then I continue telling then that very often light-weighted onehanded Battle axes could have relatively long shafts, making them almost as long as the swords, making them i unpractical as throwing weapon, and even if they had a Battle axe better suited for throwing, like a francesca that they had looted, that it would be a bad idea to throw that one away as well, cause if/when you miss you have lost a weapon. The only time throwing an axe (or knife/dagger) at an opponent, would be at a fleaing opponent that is Close enough that you won't miss, and then it has to match the rotation as well. Fun thing when this guy showed the monster shurikan, my though were (I would rather have a francesca as that would function as a melee weapon as well... 🤣

[@KroM234]

We know Franks did throw specialized throwing hatchets because there are both archeological findings as well as description of the tactics involving axe throwing (by late period Roman accounts). But it was never done as an individual aiming at a specific target, as far as I know. Franks threw franciscas "en masse" prior to the charge (just as the Romans did with heavy pila). That being said, I wouldn't fuck up with a Frankish warrior and his axe, I'm sure they could aim throw these pretty well too... I own several of these weapons and often practice throwing for fun, and not only they are great (totally designed for throwing) at hitting a target, but they also bounce everywhere with great energy! I mean I would be terrified seeing those thrown at me, even just one axe, let alone a whole warband axes.... They'd bounce up or even under a shieldwall and cause a mess! Now I don't know why the axe throwing thing sticked to the Vikings though, because contrary to the Franks, there is no written account of Vikings using the massed throwing axes. But there are actual frankish throwing axes found in Norse cultured areas. But Scandinavians loved to buy or steal Frankish items, and they might have come around a francisca at some point and use it like a regular hatchet, not specially for throwing. Who knows?

[@JWaltz91]

I would like to actually see Shad do some research on axe throwing and compare it to knife throwing as a viable primary ranged combat technique. I imagine he would find several shared faults, but axes generally have more heft to them and can be pretty damaging whether you get hit by the edge or blunted side. Even getting smacked by the spinning haft would likely be disorienting enough to be a better throwing weapon than a knife.

[@KroM234]

@@JWaltz91 there's not much to research about to be honest. Super easy to learn, anybody can consistently hit a target with a hatchet with 1h learning top. But it relies only on spinning technique. Which means you have to be at a set distance everytime to hit the target relative towards the number of spin you anticipate, and the distance you evaluate yourself. Almost impossible to hit a moving target, and consistency drops as soon as you reshuffle the distance even for a couple of inches... Axe throwing is only effective using the Frankish tactics, thrown in large volleys prior to the charge. Better off using javelins or angons (another Frankish weapon based on pilum). Franks were so successful in battle because they cracked how to tactically deal with a shieldwall: angons to penetrate shields and injure the man behind thanks to the barbed head, axe throwing to disrupt the formation, then charge in melee to mop it up. Most of their enemies at the time revolved around the shieldwall with not much bodyarmour, so these tactics were extremely effective. But throwing axes are only a part of it, not a primary weapons, and always used in volleys, not aimed individual shots. You'd also find the bouncing effect, like I said in prior message. Thegn Thrand already did the tests about penetration. Not much else to talk about.

[@Aidames]

@@JWaltz91 Throwing axes would be equally ill-advised as a primary ranged weapon, as you can only carry so many axes even if they are relatively small. You can carry 20-40 arrows in a quiver and have barrels full of them nearby, whereas you can carry only a handful of axes and they are much more troublesome to store in a way that they are quickly accessible.

[@JWaltz91]

@@Aidames I sincerely doubt that anything would have made more sense than a bow or crossbow. I just wonder if Shad would find favor in throwing axes over throwing knives as a ranged weapon. Not as a primary ranged combat tactic but simply if he finds axes to be a better alternative as a backup ranged weapon opposed to throwing knives.

[@rmt3589]

30:28 figured this out when I was little. Also, if you turn, and it's not the tightest turn around an obstical, the chaser can ALWAYS get an advantage. Because when you turn, the line from them to you is shortened.

[@SquirrelASMR]

This is really cool to see both arguments in one video

[@QazwerDave]

22:30 No. No spin is still used at 10, even 20 meters. It's AFTER that, spin comes in

[@Dinotk421]

I have a lot of thoughts about this video response...I may add them to this comment later...but I would like to note that the example about the knife vs gun example is somewhat inaccurate. Its determined that a trained person can draw and discharge their firearm at a sprinting attacker up to a minimum range of 21ft (6.5m). This distance was determined after a bit of experimentation conducted by a Sergeant Dennis Tueller in the 80s. The drill exercise to train for this quick draw is called the Tueller Drill. It was actually tested and verified on an episode of MythBusters. (Duel Dillemmas).

[@armebased6897]

Man i love this constructive debate where both sides taking time and consideration to respect each other opinion. The way they come up with proper context on which statement are valid for every disagreement that happen. This debate results in way we came to agree with each other opinion.

[@kristianheidmann5315]

From watching his video, I also got the impression that he simply has a different context in mind. My take on this: 1. The first context is modern self defense. - That "stop, stop" he goes is what you would do if someone is threatening, but not immediately attacking. It would make it clear to onlookers who the aggressor is, which is important if the matter ends up in court afterwards and the other person just claims you threw a knife at him without provocation. - He mentions ease of carry and ability to hide. That would be very relevant in modern context. Less useful if you are allowed to carry bigger weapons openly. - Also, the enemy is probably also armed with a knife, so his reach advantage isn't as great (though he IMO still misjudges how fast you can close the distance and stab). - Throwing and running away is more useful in a modern scenario since you _don't_ want to get into a knife to knife melee. 2. The second context is sport, as he sums up at the end, but I feel that he spends most of his video in the first context. I am not a mind reader, so take this with a grain of salt. But that was the impression I got.

[@mylex817]

If you can carry a throwing knife you can also carry pepper spray, in most countries both are equally legal/illegal. Perhaps you are even allowed a tazer. And I would always prefer pepper spray over a throwing knife in basically any situation I could reasonably imagine. This is especially true since a throwing knife is highly unlikely to actually stop an attacker. If anything, it will provoke him more to have some superficial but painful cut. Also gives you less trouble in court. Therefore I don't really see any benefit to those knives in modern self defense.

[@kristianheidmann5315]

@@mylex817 Disclosure: I am from Germany, and my knowledge on the matter is a couple years old. But to my knowledge, here - I am allowed to carry certain types of knives here, but I don't know if there are knives that fulfill the criteria and could still be used decently for throwing. - I am not allowed to carry pepper spray, unless I know about a certain legal loophole (may carry it against dogs, but not against humans - but may use it against humans if I have it on hand against dogs. German laws are like that). Regarding situations: what about being downwind and/or attacker close by? If I spray someone, but he closes the distance, how high is the chance of being hit by the fumes myself? Would the spray can be useful in melee? Or if the attacker is intermingled with other people, can't really spray bystanders to get rid of an attacker? In these contexts I would prefer to use the throwing knife as a knife though. In my self defense courses, escalation and deescalation played a very high role, you really can't assume a fully committed attacker in many modern situations. So here it's not about incapacitation, but also about presenting a threat. And a knife, thrown or not, implies more body harm than a spray can. Lastly, I don't know if I can draw a spray can as fast as I can a knife. I had both, and I would say nope, knife is faster. So I would disagree on knives having _no_ benefits compared to pepper spray, but mainly on the basis that a throwing knife is a knife, and I would use it as a knife in basically all those situations. I would probably just go regular knife for those reasons. If the situation would allow for a knife _throw_, I would rather pepper spray the attacker. More effective diable with less wounding I could get sued for afterwards. Though nothing stops you from carrying both. -_-

[@mylex817]

@@kristianheidmann5315 overall I think we are agreeing. If you have a single knife, don't throw it. If you have two, or better three, knifes, throwing one can work, but in such a situation I would prefer to have pepper spray instead of one of the knives. And as to your concerns about wind, pepper spray bottles have a lot of pressure, so unless you are standing in a storm (where a throwing knife also wouldn't work accurately) they will still work - in a self defense scenario, after you are spraying you are planning to run away anyway, so the wind blowing back at you isnt a big deal. When it comes to speed, I think drawing a knife AND throwing it is slower than drawing pepper spray and spraying.

[@kristianheidmann5315]

@@mylex817 Yeah, I think that basically sums it up. Not sure about the draw, but it is a minor point I have no experience with. I had pepper spray at some point, but never needed to actually use it besides some practise aiming. So that part was purely theoretical.

[@insaneanimal4]

So Shad dropped the term McDojo. It kinda resonated with my memory a bit and I wondered if Shad has heard of SenseiSeth who is a KZbinr that has done martial arts for years and looks and different things related for combat. I’ve probably botched the description of the channel and haven’t shown it justice, but it would be interesting to see Shad react to some of his videos or collab with him seeing as how Shad has a martial art background.

[@shadiversity]

If he's the one I'm thinking of, it was awesome seeing him try to fight in medieval armor.

[@_ninthRing_]

Perhaps in more confined areas, like city streets or boarding a ship at sea, knives could play a part, but you'd need to carry more than a few knives to be effective beyond a single opponent. I suspect in a closely grouped infantry, having a couple of throwing knives may be useful just as distractions. Though I suspect something like a short axe maybe more useful to both chop at the wooden hafts of halberds & pikes, and also throw - before you attack with your sword or shield.

[@teatowel11]

Throwing by definition require you to telegraph your attack. Close it gives you a chance to counter, at range, you get heaps of time to avoid the projectile.

[@Paradox-es3bl]

One thing I want to say about the "throw and run away" tactic, is that's probably the best for someone like a random farmer or housewife or something. If you don't really know how to fight, should you just run? If you're pretty sure the hostile is going to attack you, then no, imo. You should throw something that might injure and slow them (or at least slow them) and then run. If you're trained to fight, should you throw your only weapon? Of course not. Should you throw a backup weapon for an opening? Maybe. But of course, you both covered that.

[@Axterix13]

I think the problem with it, though, is that "step toward" aspect of throwing. You're not only delaying the start of your run by taking the time to throw, but you're actively positioning your body so that it takes longer to run away. If you could throw the knife as part of starting to run away, that would be one thing. But that's not the case. You're probably better off doing the movie standard of "knock stuff over as you run away" thing. And even that seems ineffective, slowing the pursued down more than the pursuer. Now, maybe, if you get to make the first movie, then throwing could buy you a bigger head start. But if your opponent is ready to act...

[@mylex817]

Also, a farmer or housewife likely does not have the time to practice throwing knives effectively. And if those people had a few hours to train self defence, it would be much more effective to learn some actual knife fighting techniques. In close quarters, against a similarly armed opponent, even a beginner has a chance to land a serious hit against a trained fighter. Or alternatively, practice some running.

[@nickelakon5369]

@@mylex817 most farming implements would make better improvised weapons as well.

[@mylex817]

@@nickelakon5369 true, as shad mentions, a slingshot is much more dangerous, and cheaper.

[@zefellowbud5970]

So throwing weapons are just kiting in real life?

[@VeraldoAncodini]

As a fan of knives I would always keep it in hand over throwing it. I think the problem is that Adam is viewing this from the perspective of a 'world champion knife thrower', he has a bias because he is so proficient with throwing knives. Someone who studies many types of weapons and doesn't have the time to master one to world champion level would be far better served using even a throwing knife as a melee weapon instead of throwing it.

[@shanehunt3019]

I'd like to have it considered on how much you'd want to throw an expensive chunk of iron with the high possibility that you're not getting it back.

[@andreas_rr]

@@shanehunt3019 i quite disagree. first of all, a small piece of metal, that doesnt even have to be maintained or anything and is really simple to produce is definitely not an expensive chunk of metal. Second, in a battlefield scenario, there will be definitely some cases where you can save an ally's life by throwing a knife at an enemy, even if you only distract him. whats worth more, 100g of iron, or your ally's life? Third, assuming you survive a battle (because else theres no point in arguning about retrieval), you will easily be able to scavenge more weapons etc, so whining over the loss of a few tiny iron pieces is just silly. If something can help you win a battle, you wont back down because of "oh i might loose that one disponible item worth of money" its your damn lives you and your firends are fighting for. And fourth, if you dont use the knives, you wont loose them. And if you use them properly, you will be able to get enough worth out of it. You're not gonna run around throwing blindly 20 knives a minute at enemies for a whole hour or more. And btw, if you do that, there's gonna be lying A TON of knives around to retrieve after combat.

[@shanehunt3019]

@@andreas_rr This is an incredibly Tolkien response that's bouncing between rational points and anime friendship magic. Sure you could scavenge it back. My original comment was more of a joke than an actual point cause competitive throwing knives can be expensive. Also, if your friend was in a life threatening position where your only option to even try to save him is with a knife throw in a medival battlefield, you'd probably have a dead friend and a stabbing implement that the enemy can pick up assuming they'd even want it. Your line has probably broken and your best bet is retreat. I'm not going to have discussions on this because we are literally in the comment section of a HEMA historian. I'm an IT guy who likes throwing hatchets. Yeah they would 200% be shit on a battlefield and I'm a damn good throw.

[@Dan-rl1pi]

It isn't biased because the context shad was also talking about was someone who is proficient in knife throwing. The context is that of someone who could easily throw a knife and have it hit.

[@pauldavison3426]

Exactly, while your everyday footsoldier throughout history would generally have little to no experience throwing knives....but you could give them a javelin or bow or even darts with little training required

[@themaverickblackbelt8054]

I watched your original video and Adam's rebuttal. I was considering trying to learn a shuriken art just for some fun and in case I ever ran out of everything else... because... I'd be throwing spikes at a regular person in a tshirt? How about this, can you ustify using/carrying throwing knives/shuriken in modern times as a last ditch back-up? Like Rifle, shotgun, pistol, Taser, pepper spray, sword, machete, fighting knife, karambit.... could it be the missing 10th line of defense? (Just to clarify, I man the "bo shuriken," the straight spike type, not the ninjas stars.)

[@Teshyone]

I have thought about this. I wonder how fast is the draw throws on a bandolier. Where you have multi knives at easy draw. Could then that be a viable weapon with the speed or would it again prove to be more a secondary weapon. If You lead off with your off hand and use that as a distraction where the real strike is with your dominate. would that help too? You have two blades coming at You and when you doge or bock or what ever. He could have two more in hand to throw again very quickly.

[@bensteward99]

Hey shad I have been following you and Adam for many a year. Adam is amazing and has overcome some huge difficulties himself (he is a cancer survivor). I think you should also watch his rapid fire videos as that may give you another perspective on their use in battle. I.e throwing multiple knives in quick susscession. As English is his second language I think some of his point made could have been lost a little in translation? Either way you are both brilliant!

[@bensteward99]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKm4hHmmZq9lf8U

[@bobbybologna3029]

I just don't get why you think someone would use throwing knives against armored opponents, even arrows struggle to get through chainmail.. and you're gonna throw knives at 'em.. riiiiiiight. You're better off just using them to eat with.

[@traphimawari7760]

@@livedandletdie tell that to the ninjas or shinobi in the samurai period who used the concept effectively especially when they combine it with their pharmaceutical skills and laced it with poison or hallucinogens, if i were a ninja I would rather be armed with a throwing knife or kunai than a nun chuck or a huge sword, anything that is compact and is basically still a knife is better than anything especially considering the role you'll be playing

[@bensteward99]

@@livedandletdie my apologies to you as you seem to have taken exceptionally to my comment. His health has nothing to do with the opinion I gave moreover to give a greater understanding of the man himself. Knives are not by any means a first choice and that again was not the pont of my comment. To say there is no use at all is quite frankly rather obstinate. And is more based on the skill set of the person using them. When Adam can throw 6 knifes in under 3 seconds on target, with force... I would say that could have use... again not a primary one but a use non the less. Or how he can then apply those skills to other objects as well... again not useless. As I mentioned I am a huge fan of both Adam and shad and think they both have very fair points of view. Throwing knifes would never even be considered as a primary choice but, for distraction or as a last resort.... very possibly.

[@tandemcharge5114]

@@traphimawari7760 Ninjas aren't battlefield units, however. Whatever legendary samurai kills they made were done when the samurai was outside of their armor

[@TheSteam02]

Interesting note: DnD seems to get a few things right with this stuff. Daggers have a throwing range of 20ft/60ft or approx 7m/20m. It was NEVER meant to be treated as your main weapon. If you wanted to focus on throwing stuff, you'd choose the plumbata/dart due to their lower weight and same damage and range. The way throwing daggers could be used would be that you're charging the enemy but you're just out of melee range. So instead of wasting your turn, you can throw a dagger/dart for a bit of damage.

[@comet.x]

virgin dagger vs chad shortsword and darts

[@Battleguild]

Though also in D&D: Daggers are a Light weapon and Darts aren't. Meaning that you can throw 2 Daggers for every 1 Dart due to Two-Weapon Fighting. (In general, not the Fighting Style). Helps for a Rogue when you don't have Extra Attack, as having two attacks improves the chance of inflicting your Sneak Attack. On the other hand, Darts are very very cheap by comparison, making them very friendly on the resource expenditure side. You can buy 20 Darts (Throwing Knives) for the price of 1 Dagger. I would also recommend a Whip as a personal defense weapon. While it may only do superficial damage to non-sensitive regions, the snap and its use in public punishment would definitely have a psychological impact against any lightly armored opponent. The Whip could also function as a makeshift garrote-wire for a less bloody kill on unsuspecting foes, but a Club could do the same job for a similar kind of mess.

[@robbiesrevelations3096]

I'm so glad you corrected Shad. I was about to just ugh. But seriously. I loved this sort of back and forth between you and Adam. Great videos overall

[@gtrenovante7010]

See the thing I like the most about Shadiversity is they actually try it out person on person for all of this rather than just talking about how it would have happened and demonstrate it with a stationary object.

[@carlroy]

I love the response video. It create a dynamic and we can discover new peoples with sometimes valid arguments.

[@traceantonacci2495]

The police have done studies on how much distance a person can cover before a cop can pull out their gun and fire off a round. I believe the distance was around 22 feet. So take that as you may. EDIT: I believe this was from a standing position. I got this from Donut Operator by the way, so fact check me.

[@bohemicbohemian9190]

Translation for continetal europeans. 22 feet = 6.7056 meters.

[@grem_newfield]

@@bohemicbohemian9190 the rest of the world*

[@Madcowdiseiz]

Here's a vid by donut operator on this exact thing. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4mal5JsntGNrKc

[@traceantonacci2495]

@@bohemicbohemian9190 Thank you.

[@gitsharty6192]

I like the response and willingness to break it all down. I think you took the video wrong. He was only showing how an experienced knife thrower can be successful while also validating your points. I truly think he was just making jokes about how good it is when comparing skill levels.

[@ben_b_blake]

24:40 This is exactly what I first think of, when it is about trowing knives. It doesn't need an edge to cut like a usual knife or dagger does, but a high mass and a sturdy point to be thrown effectively. He somewhere also says that throwing knives are a backup weapon and as such it should be carried in a manner that allows it to be drawn very fast as your usual backup weapon imho would rather be a dagger or an off-hand sword for melee situations. Or you make a bigger throwing knife of this kind - maybe 30cm? - with an edge of maybe 10 to 15cm and a small cross guard, which could also be used as an off-hand weapon effectively. I'd say the throwing knives Adam uses are only of pretty narrow usability as an backup weapon so they seem to be rather backup-backup weapons, if not using a two handed sword as your main weapon ;).