Was Starfleet Ever Really the Good Guys? Analyzing History (Spoilers)

[@8ullfrog]

I feel like the morality of Starfleet comes down to who is producing the show.

[@LoreReloaded]

Or writing it..

[@adamgray1753]

Discovery being the very pinnacle of "writing it...", @@LoreReloaded.

[@Hoagsgalaxynetwork]

Yes very true, but it makes it fun for fans to come up with lore as to why morality and ideals shift. The whole golden age of the federation and Starfleet is an entirely made up fan observation that derived from Gene Roddenberry wanting to make next generation a story of humanity’s perfect utopia. A result of him digging himself deeper into his own philosophy years after the original series. The conflicts and internal issues to come after the early seasons of next generation was the result of new leadership and writers adding drama and tension to tell the stories they wanted to tell.

[@4633-c1t]

@@adamgray1753 god no....

[@jamessackett9239]

Starfleet is an organization filled with people. People who are good, and some who are bad. As a viewer we are episodically treated to a shining example of goodness with the same crew each week. However like in life there are always bad apples in the bunch, and sometimes those bad apples carry heavy influence. You can never call an organization itself good or evil, there are only good and evil individuals.

[@d.b.4671]

"If words were water, the humans would drown us all." -- Klingon High Chancellor, 2241

[@LoreReloaded]

Love that quote

[@rifter0x0000]

@@LoreReloaded I believe it may be a paraphrase from an incident in Ancient Rome. I forget which senator was involved, but the story goes like this: In those times they used a very basic form of water clock as a timer. Not really an actual clock, but a vessel for water with a hole in it which drained the water at a constant rate. That way each speaker would have the same amount of time before the next got his turn. It was possible to ask for more time. I'm not sure whether it worked like our system where someone else gave up their time to you, but it was probably something like that. Basically you would ask for more water to be poured in if people agreed. This particular Senator was being somewhat long winded and kept asking for more water, until one of the opposition said something like " if he goes on talking like that we're all going to drown!"

[@alexandracomus755]

@@rifter0x0000 Where did you hear that? That’s pretty cool.

[@breacat]

"Hold my kanar" - Gul Dukat, 2373

[@Martin071982]

@Top Lobster it is from prelude to axanar, you can find it on youtube

[@MengskTV2]

This is a nice KZbin channel you have here Mr. Reloaded. It'd be a shame if someone conquered it and added it to the Terran Dominion.

[@modelsnstuffreveiws6628]

It’s about time

[@Romules]

JJ Abrams and bad robot is not Star Trek, this video mashed two timelines together that are not compatible.

[@The420kingchronic]

The imperium of man has entered the chat: you say something little guy?

[@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457]

All hail the Emperor may all his enemies regret too late!

[@MengskTV2]

@@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457 War..? No. This is just a field test.

[@mikehendon7327]

Generally, I feel Starfleet waffles between two extremes: On one hand, you have the fluffy, talkative, harmless Do-Gooders in space pajamas who come to scan your rocks and bring friendship. This is when they're at their most naive, and the most hard-bound to rules and regs that happily leave planets to die on principle...but at the same time, when Starfleet is doing the most good and outreach for the Galaxy. At the other extreme, you have the Starfleet that comes out every time there's a major war. Morphogenic viruses, orbital bombardments and other assorted war crimes committed in the name of pragmatism and ending the war quickly so the diplomats can do their jobs. The grand irony being, despite the horrors of "Warcrimes O'Clock" periods...Starfleet still shows absurd restraint relative to the rest of the Galaxy. Conclusion: Starfleet, despite some trips, stumbles and warcrimes along the way, is the closest thing to "the good guys" we typically see in Star Trek.

[@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457]

That is the beauty of Starfleet overall they represent their own ships in a way they can and will defend themselves and everyone knows what they can do originally like say the Galaxy class they're meant for exploration and keeping the peace with Imperial tons of scientific equipment and enough provisions to set up a research outpost, but when a threat comes along a genuine threat those same Imperial tons of scientific equipment become homing torpedoes with never before seen payloads and top of the line phaser banks, those previsions meant for an out post are shelled out to hundreds of soldiers and research outposts are then revealed to be listening posts, the Federation is the threat you know is there and see coming but you subconsciously erase because it looks like a strong breeze could tip it over but in practice not even the strongest hurricanes could even make it shudder that itself is a testament to its very foundation which by all means shouldn't work.

[@mikehendon7327]

@@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457 ...provided the Galaxy doesn't randomly have its warp core explode because it's Tuesday. Or have its Holodeck suddenly go Skynet again. Of course, the flip side of this: the ship being full of civilian targets (yay, war crimes!) means the crew will fight tooth and nail for every inch of corridor, when before they'd bolt for escape pods. Most galactic powers aren't ready for that, until they suddenly run into it.

[@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457]

@@mikehendon7327 Eh that still sums up Starfleet on one hand massive and technologically superior to nearly everything it meets on the other hand as sturdy as a shelf made by a three year old so wins and losses I say

[@kingofthespazs]

Because starfleet fails to be a military organization or a science one they seem to fail at both.

[@AaronHorrocks]

Wilsonian Interventionism in space.

[@markwrede8878]

That Star Fleet can survive at all is miraculous given that ship captains rarely follow orders, which is a good thing since its admirals are apparently always power mad.

[@lordofpain3476]

Starfleet leadership weren't too bright. I am surprised that they lasted.

[@satanicmicrochipv5656]

​@@lordofpain3476 The Federation were the good guys. Fight me!

[@MissKashira]

Given the number of their neighbors whose game plan was "enslave everyone," they were as kind as one could get in an unkind universe.

[@sword4005]

Elim Garak : It's *vile*! Quark : I know. It's so bubbly, and cloying, and *happy*. Elim Garak : Just like the Federation. Quark : But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to *like* it. Elim Garak : It's insidious! Quark : *Just* like the Federation.

[@kevin_1230]

''Elim Garak: Do you think they will be able to save us?''

[@circuitsandcigars1278]

Elon Garak: "Truth is in the eye of the beholder, Doctor. I never tell the truth because I don't believe there is such a thing. That is why I prefer the straight line simplicity of cutting cloth."

[@darrellcollins2980]

Classic💯

[@singletona082]

@@kevin_1230 Quark: I hope so.

[@Quoxozist]

Tellingly (and dishonestly), you left out the final quote from the conversation: "Do you think they'll be able to save us?" "I hope so."

[@ebla83]

Tex from the Black Pants Legion was a nice cameo

[@alf421701]

Agreed you and him do fine work

[@samronin1141]

Suddenly thinking wait... is this the UFP or Star League?

[@ebla83]

@@samronin1141 yep. I love Tex Talks Battletech. He presents the material well, and brings to life something I've liked since I was a kid.

[@alf421701]

@@samronin1141 star league are capitalist and federation/Starfleet is like a communist space hippies

[@tootiredtostop1606]

Yeah. Immediate voice recognition.

[@kingclong3227]

my opinion is that the kurtzman shit isnt star trek. gene rodenberry envisioned a utopian future, while kurtzman portrays a dystopian future. kurtzman doesnt have the talent of lets say seth mcfarlane, who i had my doubts about, but has shown he can make a show that echos the spirit of original star trek without hijacking and rewriting the franchise that gave him the inspiration.

[@singletona082]

See I can get conceptually what Kurtzman is going for in that 'beneath the facad that the officers and others who benefit most genuinely believe as they aren't expose to the harsh realities' sort of show... he just fails and has this droning joyless lecturing on how we the audience are awful people and go out of its wayto drag politics in as opposed to having a show that happens to have humanist messages denouncing discrimination, espousing cooperation and diversity, and shows what we can be at its best. Sure Trek has always had a bit of politics to it, but Picard tried to be chest thumpingly political.... alinating the very people who most would benefit from the message that 'in spite of the stumbles and flaws, we CAN be better.'

[@oolooo]

Gene's shit is a Dystopia disguised as a Utopia

[@kingclong3227]

@@oolooo ya and kurtzman's shit is utopian disguised as a dystopia

[@thomaslangston6153]

Kurtzman's a hack, that's all there is to it.

[@kingclong3227]

@@singletona082 i just reread your comment after watching possibly the shows finale, season 4 finale, of orville, seth mefarlane's show. i do believe he has a series that tries its best not to be political or at least current events political, admittedly not 100%, and address general questions about life that often are resolved through cooperation from a diverse crew. the ending episode, or at least the one where essentially the first officer tries to describe her government, referred to as the union, to someone who is a stand in for us. the show describes what could easily be used to describe the type of future rodenberry envision for his world. my point was that kurtzman, unlike mcfarlane, used rodenberry's world and hijacked it for his own opinions, as oppose to mcfarlane who used the spirit of rodenberry's world, at least experienced by him, to make his own world in almost a homage to Rodberry.

[@alternative915]

Old trek: Well yes..it's not perfect for a few occasions but yes Nutrek Alex kurtzman and Co: *N O*

[@sch3ffel]

"were the federation actually the bad guy?" me:lets ask Gene. Gene Rodenberry: no.

[@Giganfan2k1]

Something something death of the author.

[@ptbot3294]

Well that settles it. Let me ask Sir Arthur Conan Doyles if Sherlock Holmes has a sister

[@sch3ffel]

yes... lets just turn ST into a generic sci-fi show with federation a utopian face *but actually*... just like every other sci-fi show because reasons...

[@Giganfan2k1]

@@sch3ffel have you watched anything past the original series? It is always the problem with taking anything out of its isolated self contained universe. Especially if when you do another writer puts their own thoughts into a storyline. As much as I love Dune, growing up it was the first fiction book I read. I thought Paul was the good guy. Later as a see more of the world and Herbert's on thoughts on the matter (he didn't see Paul being a good guy). My opinion changed. Thinking about all this reassessment I wonder what Herbert was thinking when he wrote, Children and God Emperor of Dune. Because it makes the first book a "this had to happen, or else something a million times worse is going to happen". So yay charismatic autocorrects!? O.o

[@xxxCrackerJack501xxx]

That doesn't really answer the question, for example; "was the USSR the bad guys?" let's ask Stalin. Stalin: Nyet

[@Nelphean]

You can tell Star Fleet are the goodies because their uniforms are not covered in skulls.

[@hanzo8120]

Cmd. Lore: "Are we the baddies, Hans?" Cap. Hans: "From a certain point of view..." ;-)

[@richardvinsen2385]

Our caps have skulls on them.

[@snatchadams69]

"But, why skulls though?"

[@regalecusglesne3022]

@@snatchadams69 if you don't like skulls then why you keeping one on your neck?

[@ChrisParlett]

Your audio is up and down like an Orion girl on Jim Kirk's prime directive.

[@LoreReloaded]

On headsets shouldn’t be that bad. Never have luck with would sound normalization

[@shadowofhawk55]

No matter what scifi, there's always that one species that has over-sexualized females. It's like a requirement at this point.

[@jv-lk7bc]

@@shadowofhawk55 sci fi didn't invent it. before Raisa were seaman's tales of island paradises, and before that it was the gods ("it wasn't a swan it was Zeus, I swear..")

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@LoreReloaded This kind of video makes me think you should watch the Anime HunterxHunter, alone for the Fact you would have a Blast analyzing the 'Hunter-Association'. If you analyse Starfleet, you should also give them a deep look. HunterxHunter is anyway very complex and deep; not just with social Structures who have Rules.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@LoreReloaded This kind of video makes me think you should watch the Anime HunterxHunter, alone for the Fact you would have a Blast analyzing the 'Hunter-Association'. If you analyse Starfleet, you should also give them a deep look. HunterxHunter is anyway very complex and deep; not just with social Structures who have Rules.

[@Auraez]

Suddenly Tex. Was momentarily phased over to the battletech universe but noticed the world seemed too peaceful.

[@its6696]

Was that Tex from the Black Pants Legion reading the charter? Yep.That whiskey voice is it's own thing. LOL Nice.

[@LoreReloaded]

I try to include him when I can :)

[@kaymish6178]

Oh wow I thought it was Tex too.

[@nicholassarrouh6024]

Our boy is here!

[@briansinger5258]

_“Is anti-orc sentiment on the rise in Minas Tirith? Elf supremacist movement growing sources say.”_ - post modern film analysis

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

Lotr was entirely too one sided by the authors own reckoning in that regard.

[@hoplitethirtynine1487]

I like the how you explained the transition from the high-tech Starfleet in Disco to the subsequent drop in technology in the Original. Plot narratives aside, it makes sense, at least to me.

[@LoreReloaded]

Ironically I actually had this theory pre discovery. You see a lot of AI hate in tos, tng, and ds9

[@Quoxozist]

easier to just ignore it and stick with real trek

[@stockyirish]

Great video. I'd say that in general, Starfleet and the Federation do good, or at least try not to do bad. But desperation can make anyone make poor choices in the moment.

[@mrXOwarrior]

Hold on, I thought you can only be good if you are perfect in everything you touch? That what this video says. However that is not what ST and Gene Roddenberry ever suggested. Its all about intent.

[@silliepaulie640]

Starfleet the only place where there's heavily armed scientist.

[@Phibred]

Gordon Freeman would like to have a word with you :P

[@richardlebreton6690]

"what kind of scientist carries a gun?" Daniel Jackson, "ummm, I do."

[@mrlescure]

@@richardlebreton6690 "what kind of archeologist carries a weapon"*

[@aalb1873]

In the universe of Star Trek soldiers are called scientists.

[@GhostRyderFPV]

Saru: Discovery can conduct 300 science experiments :-) Lorca: When I took command of this vessel, you were a crew of polite scientists. Now, I look at you. You are fierce warriors! .... Saru: Prepare for Battle!!!

[@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457]

"There are three sides to every story yours, theirs, and the truth. And no one is lying."

[@jdlech]

That's also a Vorlon proverb.

[@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457]

​@@jdlech Unfortunately yes in these polarized times

[@notyou2353]

Babylon 5 was better than Star Trek. I like ST, but B5 was better. I like that Human technology was still closely related to what we currently know we can do (e.g. having to spin ships to generate gravity). The aliens were the ones with "magic" (inertial dampeners, artificial gravity, etc.).

[@stevenscott2136]

B5 was coherently planned as a story by one man, while ST had to be patched together by committee as dozens of writers submitted their own "take". It would be amazing if ST managed to equal B5 as a quality story.

[@geraldapollyon655]

I can't believe you managed to get TEX from TEX Talks Battletech of the Black Pant's Legion to read out the first paragraph of the Charter of the UFP. That is so cool.

[@Alsemenor]

Mike Stoklasa would want to have a word with you...

[@loturzelrestaurant]

This kind of video makes me think you should watch the Anime HunterxHunter, alone for the Fact you would have a Blast analyzing the 'Hunter-Association'.

[@KSchawacker]

"S#%t. Data are we the bad guys?" "Logical answer captain? Sorta"

[@mahatmarandy5977]

I feel as though Starfleet/The federation is such a patchwork of different authors, retcons, and sloppy continuity that it's really impossible to make any consistent sensible history. Case in point, TNG regularly contradicted TOS, and Voyager regularly contradicted TOS *and* TNG, while TOS occasionally contradicted itself. This is a problem with any long-running franchise, so, while your work here is one way of making sense of it, and good job too, it's also only one of several equally valid ways of interpreting it. It's messy, and the producers frequently didn't care all that much.

[@kumii0981]

Always enjoy the content Lore, may you continue to stay profitable.

[@andyhan5008]

This seems more like a Star Trek history lesson and not “is the federation moral?” video but hey I’m not complaining Fun video thx man

[@Karen-pk3uv]

You gotta know the history in order to answer the question🤷‍♀️ 😜 lol

[@andyhan5008]

@@Karen-pk3uv u are so freakin right. Know the history to answer questions about here n now n later. I love history like freakin love it so u are so right. (I am not being sarcastic lol)

[@Karen-pk3uv]

@@andyhan5008 same. I love looking back and seeing what choices were made or not, why and how they will effect the future.

[@ApsalusSigma]

Hey! I know that handsome whiskey-soaked voice! (Tex Talks Battletech)

[@talsine]

I LOVE TEX!!!! every video is improved by his whiskey spoke vocals and i loved his reading of the Starfleet charter.

[@812amack]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. That being said any entity that becomes too large becomes unsustainable whether they are altruistic in nature or malevolent. That seems to be borne out in your analysis, which by the way was an excellent listen.

[@Mastercluster]

fun fact, you first sentence is acutally also a quote from DS9 cpt. Sisko Episode "In The Pale Moonlight" which i want to concider the darkest episode of DS9 and clearly shows that the Federation would allow what we would call bad or evil if its in their interesst. I know all ST is fictional but it also kinda reflects our society thats probably why i like all pre ST 2009 cannon ST. iam also curious did you follow all ST cinematics and what do you think about the transformation about moral and ethics on the newer ST? greetings and stay healthy

[@michaelmitchell4989]

I think that it's wrong to equate Starfleet with the Federation.

[@AntiCitizenX]

You people really need to learn the difference between “evil” as a matter of official institutional policy, and “evil” as a matter of fallible people doing they best they can under difficult circumstances.

[@LoreReloaded]

You actually going to expand or give a useless comment?

[@christopherboccuzzi8761]

I enjoy the content overall. Nitpick: around 9:50, it states TNG resumes the known history at 2371. TNG Season 1 is 2364, and Season 7/Generations is 2371, where the subtitles read "78 Years Later" as it transitions from Kirk lost to the Nexus to the Promotion ceremony. I enjoyed the summary of Discovery, though. Thank you for the work to put these together.

[@nicksmith9371]

Eddington speech about the federation when talking to sisko sums up the federation perfectly.

[@breacat]

Yes. I'm sure that anyone who was assimilated by the Borg, eradicated by the Dominion, hunted for sport by the Klingons, subjugated by the Romulans, or gangraped by the Cardassians would agree with that self-righteous assessment.

[@nicksmith9371]

@@breacat Eddington wasn't self - righteous he was right. The federation allowed an autonomous intelligence agency that attempted to commit genocide to exist. Like it our not the federation started the dominion war, the dominion only eradicated the Marquis in the war and the federation didnt interfere with the alpha quadrant even after the war, only odo went to change things. The cardassians only conquered bajor and did as they pleased as the federation did nothing for 50 years, even though militarily they could have done. But bajor was not in the federation so it wasnt so pressing. They betrayed their own people, hunted, killed and imprisoned them for a treaty!! They could have destroyed the borg and saved billions but Picard decided to lean on the prime directive and his affection for hugh( which he and the insufferable Janeway broke when convenient) Sisko hunted Eddington out of revenge as HE felt betrayed, nothing to do with duty. Decided to move a whole culture on baku so the federation could stay young. Lets face it the federation are as bad as anyone else but with nicer uniforms and a smile.

[@breacat]

@@nicksmith9371 Yes Michael Eddington, a man who used biological weapons in his war with the Cardassians is a real moral authority. Your own indictment of the United Federation of Planets and by extension Starfleet is all over the map. You blame the Federation for allowing Section 31 to perpetrate genocide against the Founders of the Dominion and yet criticize Captain Picard and Janeway for not doing the same to the Borg. Perhaps you're particular about genocide, but if you're going to hold the Federation to one standard then you must be consistent. Regarding your first charge about Section 31 being allowed to exist, that agency does what it pleases in defense of the Federation and I doubt anyone from the President on down to the average citizen could do much to stop it if they even knew it existed. On the second charge of starting the Dominion War, Starfleet mined the wormhole to stop Dominion military convoys from rearming their Cardassian members. What would be the alternative? Let them build up their forces until they struck with overwhelming force and win? The Dominion originally planned to blowup the Bajoran sun and kill everyone in that star system to wipe out all armed opposition. War was inevitable. On your third charge it's debatable whether Starfleet could've done anything about Cardassia annexing Bajor. After the Khitomer Accords and the Tomed Incident the Federation didn't have any strong adversaries so they could cut back on their military budget. Maybe Starfleet could've handled the Cardassians, but where in the Federations charter did it pledge to defend every world under attack? Why should Federation citizens be expected to defend planets they've never heard of or even sacrifice their lives if need be? Would Bajor have done the same if the roles were reversed? The fourth charge of betraying their people is an exaggeration. The Federation compensated them for their losses. They offered the colonists on those planets new worlds to settle and while most took that offer the Maquis chose to fight and soon became a nuisance for the Federation so Starfleet had to intervene. Then when there was a change in government on Cardassia rather than work with a more agreeable regime they took advantage of the situation. It is one of the reasons why the Cardassians joined the Dominion and they soon made short work of Maquis. Your fifth charge is disapproval for not committing genocide when they had the chance which I previously discussed. And finally your last charge is the incident with the Baku which was largely committed by a rogue admiral motivated by the desperation of a war the Federation was barely holding its own in. The Federation is analogous to democratic nations and while they're not perfect they are certainly better than the alternatives. Ask yourself this? If not the Federation who do you want as your overlord?

[@nicksmith9371]

@@breacat , Firstly, where did I say Eddington was a moral authority? I wasn't debating weather he was any better than the federation, merely that he was right about them. You can in theory negotiate with the changelings, they have the potential for growth, as proven time and again you cannot negotiate with the Borg, or at least negotiate anything that the Borg wont double back on when it suits. Even if the argument can be made for small pockets of resistance within the collective, they are beyond minuscule and cant dream of ever impacting the billions of drones and morphing the collective into some quasi democratic race. The changelings behaviour came from a fear of solids unlike the Borg, whose wish to eradicate everyone came from a need for perfection that only they categorically knew could be achieved through them. They did not want to be the master race they wanted everyone who wasn't to physically become identical to them. The Borg are a plague. The idea that the federation don`t know about section 31 even if it is just in the highest echelons of the federation is tosh, there is always a bigger fish. Perhaps the federation did have no choice r.e the war and it may very well end up like you say, but it doesn't negate the point, its up to people like you and me to debate weather it was the right call. You could argue the federation would have built up their forces, built up an empire better ready for war, had time to cement allies and strategy. Would they have suffered such horrific loses at the start if they had? Who knows. The argument that the Marquis were compensated so they don`t have a right to fight back is flawed. If you live in a house and the city come to you and say "We want bulldoze your house" but here is another house 600 miles away and some compensation then threaten to cut you off if you dont accept isn't a choice and im damn sure you would want to fight back especially if your life was declared a nuisance. This is what the federation did, they took away their rights as citizens, the choice to live where and how they wanted, proving that the federation only protect their citizens when it is convenient. This links in with the Bajoran question, The Cardassians were a race lacking in natural resources and was lacking the subsequent clout, the federation still held a military of some repute that could sway the argument, even by just the possibility of military action and not having to use it and making Cardassia ask the question of "could they?" As for not having to protect the Bajorans you are right, and if the Bajorans where part of the Cardassian union then they wouldn`t have much scope to interject. That wasn`t the case and Bajor was a free and independent society, the sort that the federation champions even if they arnt in the federation its self. We are led to believe they are almost the moral arbitrators of the quadrant and defendors of democracy, yet Bajor was not worthy. The risk of life is a slightly mute point as Starfleet officers know they maybe called upon to do things that risk their life. A citizen wouldn't be that worried as Carrdassia alone would not decide to take on the Federation, as we know that they were a 2nd rate power masquerading as a 1st rate one, more Mussolini`s Italy than Hitlers Germany. It is ultimately why they joined the Dominion, as their frailty was glaringly exposed by the Klingons. The federation council were well aware of the plans of the admiral for the Baku and deemed the few hundred people worth the sacrifice. As for my preferred master? Personally I would not want an overlord. Are the federation the best of the bunch? Yes, but Eddington has a point that they are not the shining beacon they are made out to be. That aside ask yourself this, do you think we are actually going to agree on this? I would hazard a guess at probably not.

[@americana_incarnate1717]

To be fair you have to have a lot of diplomatic skill to make allies with insults.

[@LoreReloaded]

Right?

[@darthgamer2014]

What is Starfleet? Starfleet is a group of good people trying to make they're mark in the galaxy and survive.

[@LordHoth_90]

Good from a certain point of view.

[@darthgamer2014]

@@LordHoth_90 Indeed

[@deadend1041]

@@LordHoth_90 No one thinks they're the bad guy, if humans had that kind of self awareness we wouldn't have a 20th century littered with atrocities

[@zubstep]

@@deadend1041 And 21st, sadly. See Uighurs in Xinjiang and the Fur, Zaghawa and Masalit in Darfur.

[@SamuelBlack84]

Good and evil are subjective Even more so when groups of people are involved Individual morality is easy Applying it to others will always bring problems

[@dextrian]

"not use weapon's of mass destruction... Unless everyone agree, we should use them" ... That was VERY specific.

[@ASTheOneAndOnly]

Beautiful vid mate. Well done. The work that goes into your craft is very appreciated.

[@LoreReloaded]

If you could get a video like this once a week or the usual videos of 8 minutes or less almost every day .. which would you prefer ?

[@ivanthemadvandal8435]

"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat," James T Kirk

[@RememberTheChase]

Its really hard to have "high ideals" as they say, at its heart no matter what the federation is an ideal! An ideal that lives in each citizen and in that it gets its power, and some ideals are worth fighting for even though you could guarantee that it wouldn't be easy (probably no matter what). I always what Picard said in first contact "we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." and isn't that in reality what we are trying to achieve with our own lives? I mean thats what star trek taught me, and isn't that almost part of our DNA as humans? I think its reasonable or even obvious to assume that we would not be here without working together then, now, and forever, and this interaction is how we know right and wrong (by finding out what others are comfortable with). I'm working to better myself and anyone else I come into contact with, by teaching and more importantly..... Listening and trying to understand new viewpoints.

[@alcosmic]

This would be elevated by incorporating some of the real-world context for the time periods in which each series was produced.

[@bobhallway5507]

“We have arrived, and it is now that we perform our charge. In fealty of the God-Emperor (our undying lord) and by the grace of the Golden Throne.... I declare Exterminatus upon the” Klingon “world of” Qo’noS. “I hereby sign the death warrant of an entire world, and consign a million souls to oblivion. May imperial justice account in all balance. The Emperor protects” =][=

[@iaf010]

Glory to mankind. Death to the Xenos Scum.

[@robertflury3349]

I was with you until you included Discovery. Owning an IP doesn't mean you know what you're doing with it.

[@Gfish17]

It's canon now 😂

[@Commander800]

The new lore from Discovery & Picard really ruins the whole timeline...

[@lightofchicagoproductionz9012]

Discovery Ruins Star Trek...

[@twinklepoof7707]

Negative. Discovery & Picard are not Star Trek.

[@ThatGuyNicho]

Just deem it non-canon and move on.

[@stevenscott2136]

There was an author (can't remember which one) whose books were made into a movie. Interviewer asked "Do you think the movie adaptation ruined your work?" Author said "Of course not -- my books are on the shelf right there, same as they always were."

[@j.r.242]

Nah. It’s just different views. I love the Picard series, it’s a different view yes, but you can’t have the light without the dark. In fact some of the darkness in Picard makes the light brighter in my opinion at least.

[@RowenJ420]

I think after the dominion war the Federation should have started a military only branch of starfleet to be kept in the background and at ready in case exploration leads to war

[@EuropeanGameClub]

That would be dangerous as it could coup the government anytime it wanted more power, like they attempted in ds9

[@S3Cs4uN8]

@@EuropeanGameClub There's also the precedent set within the setting history that any purely-military branch of Starfleet may go decades, or even a century, without ever seeing anything larger than a minor border skirmish. The Federation-Cardassian War was so minor to the former that at the height of their 'golden age' they didn't even move to a war footing, and that's basically the best any such Pure-military Starfleet offshoot could have hoped for.

[@LordSathar]

i have a theory that ever since they revealed in first contact that the Federation was basically the Vulcan's idea, that the entire organization is basically the buffer puppet state to keep Romulans and Klingons from teaming up against Vulcan, who are the puppetmasters of the entire galactic quadrant.

[@SCIFIguy64]

If vulcans were so powerful why do they literally only have a desert shit hole planet and rely entirely on the feds? Checkmate, elves.

[@stevenscott2136]

If they control the feds, it would look exactly like "relying on" them. Vulcans chilling at home while fed citizens work and die doing stuff that keeps Vulcan safe and well-fed. As for the planet, that's the way they like it. They're logical enough to keep their breeding under control, so they don't need a lot of land.

[@pigtailsboy]

See, when you deliver the story within STD like this it sounds reasonable. But I'm given the the impression from others that there is a failure in delivery as well as an unwillingness to avoid integrating new events into canon rather than just add lore to expand the universe out more fully. I'm sure putting TOS next to STD for watching provides a lot of alarming differences besides the obvious ones. For one the fan fiction tropes that are noteworthy in other SciFi properties in later years. A disease that has taken firmer hold as the internet has become fully woven into culture.

[@SCIFIguy64]

I haven't watched STD due to the backlash, but I'm hoping it could pull through like other series had done. It took TNG almost 3 seasons to plant itself firm and even then there were doubts on whether the principle cast will stay. Maybe in a decade or so, if it doesn't get prematurely cancelled, it could be similar to ENT, poorly received but generally okay as it stewed in the community. That said, it does sound a lot like fan fiction falling on the writers table, and it doesn't help that they mix the Kelvin aesthetic with the prime aesthetic in a bizarre and confusing way. I thought it was part of the Kelvin timeline until I actually read reviews of it.

[@warhawke223]

I like that you got Tex of the BPL to do the voice work

[@ashtonrooks7899]

15 minutes into the video and I'm hearing a lot of summary of what happened but not much analysis 😕

[@nekophht]

I've grown into the head canon that there are two main factions within Starfleet - one that sees it as both explorers and soldiers, and another that sees it as explorers only, with most of Starfleet personnel sitting between those points. Early Fed Starfleet would be with the former faction in the wake of the war with the Romulans, would shift towards the latter as it recruits and grows, then starts shifting back to the former as a result of the war in DSC S1. Things would then shift back to the "peace" faction in the decades after ST6 (helped by the conspiracy faction's actions casting shade on the "military" faction) until the increasing threats (esp Borg) causes a shift back towards the other faction. Also, this would coincidentally place the large jumps in ship size as under the "peace" faction, perhaps as leaning to having ships last much longer (with lots of empty internal volume to be filled in by refits over the decades?) than the earlier designs. I'd give the TOS Connie being smaller (TOS/TMP size rather than DSC) as being part of a "standard-type explorer" (based on the USN's standard type battleship concept) lineage dating back to the NX (refit) that's kept in the era of large ships as a compromise with whatever Starfleet oversight committee Fed Parliament has (in order to get their larger ships with all the really cutting edge tech slapped in them).

[@gunsmithbasic]

Everything added after TNG was suspect

[@NeroLordofChaos]

2:57 *TEX TALKS TREK*

[@ChannelSwan]

TEX! Uh, you did good too Lore, I just love Tex so much.

[@LoreReloaded]

Who doesn’t love Tex!

[@SacredGumby]

When Tex shows up where you don't expect him.

[@classicforreal]

3:00 not Black Pants Legion’d enough

[@The-Roaming-Roadie]

did not expect to hear Tex at 2:55

[@flaviusjustinianus]

Incorporating the narratives from the J.J.A. Films, STP, STD and LowerD. Star Trek becomes a universe I no loger want to hear stories about. An this is one I sadly had to stop listening to mid way.

[@ThatGuyNicho]

Agreed.

[@proctoscopefilms]

As well-written as DS9 was, it unfortunately started all that crap.

[@flaviusjustinianus]

@@proctoscopefilms maybe the franchise saw with DS9 that a darker more grim universe was also popular in trek and that's why they moved millions of light years away from Genes Vision or the simple premise that alien and humans have no reason to behave like children and pursue ridiculous emotional actions.

[@Grizabeebles]

@@flaviusjustinianus -- It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Star Trek first aired in 1966 during the Vietnam War and DS9 was produced during "the late 20th century" -- when Trek lore predicted the rise of Khan, a devastating Third World War and at least two more global-scale conflicts later dubbed "The Eugenics Wars". Then the World Trade Center attacks happened in 2001 and United States transformed the same way DS9 had shown the Federation abandoning its idealistic values during the Dominion War in 1998. After living through times like these, the optimism of TNG can look extremely naive. Just like America (and like everyone, really) there's a difference between the way the Federation **sees itself** and the way the Federation looks to people who only see what the Federation **does** And those are two **very** different images.

[@williamkeahi5025]

Was that Tex of the black Pants Legion?!

[@jamesp.6753]

I think Starfleet was at it's most powerful in the 23rd century. In Errand of Mercy, the Enterprise basically one shot a Klingon ship. In the Deadly Years, multiple Romulan Warbirds wailed on it, and the Enterprise left after firing zero times. Declaring war against those ships at that period of time was suicide.

[@RaiderMXV]

Love that you got Tex as your reading voice. Sounds great. :D

[@fakshen1973]

Deep Space Nine really blew open the Star Trek canon: section 31, deceit, conspiracies, plotting, false flag operations. Still my favorite of the Star Trek series.

[@markusbarten8269]

Section 31 was depicted as something that was more tolerated than accepted by those who know about it. Basically a pro Federation Terrorist organisation.

[@ganados0]

Before that there was a long list of corrupt admirals in Starfleet pursuing their own agendas.

[@mrXOwarrior]

@@ganados0 DS9 was only earth shattering to those that didn't pay attention to what limit stories we got on the subject in TNG and the movies. It was always there.

[@kronoscamron7412]

to oldly go where no senior citizen has gone before.

[@matthewgohn6977]

Oh shit is that Tex of tex talks battletech in this video amazing

[@filmandpage1138]

It's easy to be a super enlightened peaceful society when you're at the top of your game technology wise, and that technology has eliminated all wants and needs. Until a superior force shows up to threaten all of that. Then your morals as an organization is really put to the test. It's interesting how the Trek lore has changed over time. I have the old Star Trek: Chronology History Of The Future which I bought back in 1993. It gives the first contact with the Klingons as the year 2218, and that the initial contact was disastrous. Which caused starfleet to covertly observe newly discovered civilizations before first contact is attempted. That sounds better than having a Klingon crash in a corn field.

[@jimmypicklestein6974]

Yes only the new Star Trek believes they are all evil and yeah kurtzmen trek isn’t trek.

[@gamescape7758]

Is that Mr. Tex from black pants legion? Awesome!

[@gamescape7758]

Hell yeah. Can't miss that voice!

[@DerBeppone]

Thank you for the deep dive. I really enjoy this kind of content! I like to wrap my brain around this and sink my intellectual teeth into these kinds of breakdowns. Even if it just means, like one video a week, I am more than happy to wait for this! It really does deepen my enjoyment of the shows this franchise had produced. And as you said, even at it's lowest, there are still individuals and their influence to remind us and Starfleet itself, what it is supposed to be about! Times are changing and of course, so is Star Trek, but as long as it ends with an up beat, I am willing to endure the struggles. Because, like with (arguably almost) all early Trek seasons, it does seem to become better than it was at the very beginning. In the end it is still about experimenting with forms and expectations, before the respective show find it's ground. Minor Spoilers for Star Trek: Picard ahead! That said: I still am hoping that Jean-Luc Picards influence will once more inspire the world around him. I reckon without his loss, we wouldn't have an arc.

[@GhostRyderFPV]

Edit for spoilers! The ban on Synthetics was lifted, a major high-five moment considering the backstory about Mars, and one that corrects, and informs, the sins of Starfleet regarding their reaction to the shipyard destruction. Optimistic end? Maybe. Certainly it was just, and a return to inclusion.

[@darkhobo]

TEX JUST OUTTA NOWHERE! Lol. You HAVE to love that voice!

[@Sorrowborn]

WHISKEY VOICE FOR THE WIN

[@Liphted]

This channel is so badass.

[@demogorgonzola]

8:37 ``...the alliance with the Klingons that was initially shaky...`` - showing Sulu drinking on Excelsior bridge ok, but NOT the moment when the cup was actually SHAKING as the Praxis shockwave was coming? ;-)

[@ThradNevar83]

Yo is that Tex from Black Pants Legion?!?!?!

[@lordofsparks]

A solid overview of Federation history. Nice!

[@LoreReloaded]

Prefer the longer form or shorter form stuff ?

[@lordofsparks]

@@LoreReloaded I like the longer form deep dives. The extended video essay format gives more room to explore the topic and do editing magic. Although some of short trolling quasi-response videos you've been doing are pretty funny.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

@@LoreReloaded I think it really depends on your judgement of the topic...some might warrant a longer form, others might not have much meat to them and be shorter. Since you tend to do "canon" stuff, you can probably get more out of the lore in a longer form. Same if you do comedy...it likely works in shorter bites, unless you can make it consistently "funny" in longer form.

[@georgesulea]

Great synopsis. Very precise and truthful:)

[@vsGoliath96]

I mean, that was definitely the original intention. Good thing a bunch of hack writers ruined it.

[@LoreReloaded]

Are you taking tng and ds9? Yea they changed it pretty stoutly .. genocidal virus for not one by two species .. abandoning citizens

[@MissLenaBeamish]

This was so interesting and well done! thank you!

[@robertpaws]

I thought Starfleet was the military branch of the federation

[@failsc2player]

Any time I get to listen to Tex narrate something is a good time.

[@malamuteaerospace6333]

No, just like The Empire was not the bad guy in Star Wars. They just wanted stability in an unstable universe.

[@GamalJesus]

Awesome video

[@CountBrass]

I think it's a mistake to try and integrate the Discovery material into the timeline. It just makes a mess of it.

[@LoreReloaded]

You should see tng and ds9

[@CountBrass]

@@LoreReloaded I've watched all the Star Trek series.

[@JediOfTheRepublic]

Whenever I hear people complain about Picard and how Starfleet would never be secretive or overreaching, I just say "Have you never seen TNG or DS9?". Great video my dude.

[@jonathanaldridge4114]

JediOfTheRepublic Yea as if they show section 31 in charge of earth.

[@jamesp8164]

Starfleet was never malicious by nature. Certainly members of it have been at times, a blindingly obvious fact that is true of any organization with many members. Starfleet, however, was always a product of the society that created it. That society’s greatest sin, and Starfleet’s, was a total lack of self awareness and extreme naïveté. Federation society is built on a premise that does not and cannot exist in reality. That idea is, basically, we are a morally advanced society because we evolved to be that way. This is an incredibly destructive and crippling idea. There is no evidence across all of history of evolution making people more moral. There is every reason to believe that, in fact, it encourages behavior most of us would see as immoral. If humans in the future are morally better it will be because they chose to be, and for no other reason. Federation society‘s philosophical zeitgeist can’t see this. Instead, because they think they are better because they evolved, they can easily justify anything as enlightened. This is incredibly dangerous. This is how Starfleet officers have been able to make some pretty depraved decisions and justify them as enlightened when basic common decency and common sense would tell people these decisions were horrible. Bad enough that such actions can be easily justified, but in the case of the strident followers of this idea, they will seek to impose it in its most extreme form wherever possible, and with the approval of their conscience. CS Lewis had something to say about this kind of thing: “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” The ideas the Federation is founded upon do not contain the outright malevolent elements you might see in communism or fascism, but it is ripe for similar outcomes under the wrong set of circumstances. It is this culture that created Starfleet, and so it indulges in the same misguided thinking. The only reason that the UFP has not collapsed into a brutal authoritarian regime is 1) the population generally is morally good (but not for the reasons it thinks it is) and 2) miles upon miles of plot armor. Are Starfleet the bad guys? Not as such. They’ve done some messed up stuff from time to time, a lot of driven by their devotion to a flawed concept. They are, however, the chrysalis of something truly monstrous. A bad actor with some resources and motivation could pretty easily use the flawed philosophical underpinnings for the UFP against it and quickly corrupt it into something horrifying, largely without the populace being fully aware of what had happened for a lot longer period of time than you’d think.

[@eugenebridgesii7582]

Damn. That’s deep thinking 🤔!

[@liamanderson4992]

@@eugenebridgesii7582 How's this for depth? No-one else seems to have said it, so I might as well do it myself. The whole concept of the Federation's / Starfleet's moral superiority is an analog of US exceptionalism. In the original series, the Klingons were intended as an analogue of the USSR, and it's not a far stretch to imagine that the Romulans were an analogue of the People's Republic of China, perhaps with Spock being the equivalent of Taiwanese. The explosion of Praxis was definitely meant to reflect the explosion of Chernobyl. What is interesting is that the "golden age of Starfleet" came at the time when TNG was written and produced, which is when the Cold War was ending, the US was the predominant superpower before the resurgence of Russia and the rise of China and India. Deep Space 9 came out 2 years after the first Gulf War, when the US fought the Iraqis with help from the coalition (Does that make us Brits the Klingons?) and in some ways the increasing militarization of the Federation reflects the increasing militarization of Western society. Voyager seems to me to reflect a partial return to the scientific orientation of Starfleet, albeit with an ass kicking captain. That may well also reflect how the US saw itself in the decade between the first Gulf War and 9/11. Enterprise came out in 2001 and lasted until 2005. In real life we had 9/11 and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. In some ways, this is a reflection of the whole Xindi arc where the US found itself making moral compromises to achieve its aims. Now we come to Discovery and Picard. I haven't seen Picard, but I have seen Discovery - which reflects a bleaker more desperate view of the world where all the old certainties are gone. You could argue that the burn is an analogue of the impact of the C Virus. The burn severely limited interstellar spaceflight, the c virus has reduced our horizons from the whole world to the local grocery store. There is more uncertainty in the power and moral authority of institutions today than there has been in a long while. The Star Trek franchise has always been a mirror of the US, and historians in the future may look at it that way and comment on how it reflected the zeitgeist. I remember what really struck me was the quote from "Star Trek Beyond" - "This is where the frontier pushes back".

[@jamesp8164]

Liam Anderson I don’t think this is a good read of the situation. Some things are correct. The Klingons were not actually a direct analog to the USSR but they represented something similar: A potential enemy that was very frightening, that bad capabilities similar to your own, and all the fear that goes with that. Praxis was definitely a Chernobyl analog. ST 6 generally was a retelling of the end of the Cold War. There definitely isn’t any parallel to American exceptionalism in Starfleet. In fact there’s quite a bit of the opposite. The UFP generally is somewhat “western” in its philosophy but it’s far more of the social democracy flavor we see in Europe than the American flavor. I wouldn’t read too much of the events of the 90s into DS9 and Voyager. Those shows were not culturally unique for their time. DS9 and VOY were very different shows that were different because of differing writing style.

[@deadend1041]

@@liamanderson4992 you are right and you are right in your criticism of the USA but for the wrong reason. What the federation is reflecting is not American exceptionally, but its descent into communism. Watch the next gen, especially the first 3 seasons, its all about positive rights, something found no where in the US constitution, but core principles of the Soviet constitution and the UN charter. There is also a heavy hatred of capitalism and a market economy built into the federation that was completely absent from the original series.

[@deadend1041]

@@jamesp8164 it depends on the era, in the original series the klingons did represent the USSR, its painfully obvious, the trouble with Tribble smacks you in the face with it. But by the time they did TNG they changed this.

[@EliteLenny223-Main]

I love it. :))) Thank you!!

[@KertaDrake]

You know, the more I watch these videos, the more I'm wondering if there's rampant conspiracy theories in the Federation that Voyager's return was faked by cloning the crew or something similarly ridiculous.

[@LanMandragon1720]

I'd pretty much count on it look at current day with flat eathers.

[@Talot]

I like the explanation in DS9... the federation, for all its values, is based on earth, where there is no war, hunger, or poverty, but yet it passes judgement on everyone around them... yet whenever the federation is put into a tough situation, they do amazing ethical gymnastics to keep their plush lifestyle going.

[@StevenHouse1980]

Perhaps thay are not the good guys, but thay try realy realy hard to be good guys.

[@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457]

Good is a matter of who wins the war my dear House.

[@Hamdad]

Questions not answered that may have been illuminating: 1. Is the Earth government democratic in Star Trek? 2. What kind of boots are the crew all wearing in TOS? 3. It is implausible every Earth religion would just vanish overnight because of first contact with the Vulcans. So what really happened to them? 4. Is it possible what we're seeing when we watch Star Trek is a historical record, which only tells the Federation's version of events?

[@warhawk4494]

I'm sure they were good guys in their own minds. Wait! wait! wait! Thats Tex from the BlackPantsLegion!!!!!! Hot damn

[@vladtheimpala5532]

I enjoy learning about history. This was a very interesting history of the future.

[@jamescrawley7993]

The star fleet is a whole lot better than the "Mirror Universe" version of star fleet! I know that for sure!

[@harriet.z]

well said 🤣

[@Birdzlitlehelpr]

After Std and Picard, I'm starting to think the mirror universe is the better option

[@MrPeter924]

Great video great Star Trek. 👍

[@solesurvivor7989]

Next generation started in 2365

[@JosiahKillion]

Great content.

[@youdontknow7190]

Our society is never going to get to something that resembles this a little unless we change and put a lot of shit behind us.

[@hawkevick9184]

That’s what so wonderful of Star Trek, humanity learns of their mistakes!

[@michaelkeha]

Indeed like socialism and communism they need to die preferably with globalism but baby steps

[@Nimariel]

You do an excellent job in this video of a) summarizing all of Star Trek history and b) thematically tying together every version of the franchise, even the wilder spin-offs. Superb work.

[@sterlingdennett]

Does EVERYTHING need to be deconstructed?

[@tomatopotato4229]

Yes

[@Aleksandar6ix]

Brilliant way to insert the Discovery era... That's what they always intended to explain both TOS technology and plausibility based on current times

[@mrXOwarrior]

Great, sci-fi woke-ism for fiction now. "Starfleet was the bad guy all along, I knew it".

[@keegobricks9734]

I feel a little sickened you bothered to include Disco as if it was canon, but you did a decent job of making it seem coherent. The nicest thing I can say about the show is it nicely and neatly makes itself irrelevant by essentially saying that the federation expanded then contracted back to what it was after Archer and during Kirk's captaincy. It quite literally was pointless besides just being non canon fanfic.