Was Tolkien's inspiration for Gondor the Byzantine Empire?

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[@LREY888]

I have to say, after watching the intro for this video I want to commend you for speaking so honestly about the current state of social deconstruction through Hollywood & media. I hope things are well where you live. I want to support your channel in the near future sir! You are very on point and very well researched.

[@commentfreely5443]

wasn't he in wwi so that's why he wrote about war?

[@zekeolopwi6642]

Just a quick note before I watch. I've seen it to be similarly possible that the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor were analogs for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah given Tolkien's own religious influences we see in the being Eru Illuvitar and Morgoth.

[@Jediben001]

In my opinion, the men of Rohan coming to the aid of Gondor, reminds me of the Bulgarians come to the Byzantines aid in the 715 siege of Constantinople

[@theicepickthatkilledtrotsk658]

Hello, based department.

[@andrejkolarik8323]

For me, it was similar to Polish hussars relieving the siege of Vienna, which lies at the easternmost hill of the White Mountains (Alps)

[@TonyFontaine1988]

No, it was based off of the Battle of Catalonian plains. Theoden = Theodoric. Theoden and Theodoric both died by falling off of their horse. Atilla was the witch king.

[@SithLord2066]

@@TonyFontaine1988 Heavily inspired by, yes.

[@TonyFontaine1988]

@@andrejkolarik8323 that seems more like helms deep because the cavalry determined the battle at the end

[@KertPerteson]

interesting...

[@hydroac9387]

This is an excellent observation. I've loved Tolkien for decades and have a growing appreciation for Roman and later Eastern Roman (Byzantine) history. I've always liked the idea of alternate history, where Byzantium somehow overcomes the overwhelming force of the Ottomans to re-establish Eastern Roman Empire. In fact, I've enjoyed the strategic game Europa Universalis 4 (EU4) playing as Byzantium its last, sad decline in 1444 to do just that - where the Phoenix Rises! :) Love your channel and insights! Thank you!

[@saultd2343]

There's a mod for EU2 called Interregnum in which byzantium still stands a a medium power in the balkans and anatolia, and the crusader kingdoms unified under the kings of Jerusalem. Sadly the iberian reconquista failed and the Al-Andalus is the major power in the iberian peninsula

[@josemariavacaredondo8975]

From my point of view, I think the arrival of Rohan's forces at the Fields of Pelennor is a direct reference to the arrival of the Winged Hussars at Vienna during its second siege by the Ottoman forces on the 10th of September of 1683.

[@TetsuShima]

Loved the part where Galadriel converted all Middle Earth to Christianity after seeing a sign in the sky and then boiled Sauron alive in a bathtub A truly beautiful moment in the history of Christ 😇🙏

[@zakback9937]

A beautiful myth

[@Georgios1821]

WTF are you saying

[@TetsuShima]

@@Georgios1821 It's a reference to Constantine the Great

[@Georgios1821]

@@TetsuShima A reference to the single most important Emperor of World

[@TetsuShima]

@Sverige 7 A pathetic lie? What the Hell are you talking about?

[@Docre_T]

I think it's impossible to be passionate about Roman history (or History in general, actually) and not be passionate about Tolkien! Yes, I have always noticed the similarities between Rohan and the foederati system. I also see a parallel between how the Shire was left politically abandoned when Arnor fell and how England was abandoned to its own by the romans. And yes, the Amazon show is utter garbage that will only be useful to distinguish the true fans who respect the Professor and those who don't.

[@craigmason9893]

it all started with ol Tolkien for me

[@nikhtose]

Well thought out and presented! Minas Tirith reminded me, too, of Constantinople, the only comparable citadel in medieval Europe, the history and culture of which so clearly inspired Tolkien. I think it also inspired George R.R. Martin's capital city, King's Landing, in Game of Thrones. In Season 2, an attacking fleet is sunk by flaming missiles shot from its ramparts---an unmistakable reference to Greek fire. The City lives on!

[@virgilxavier1]

I've often thought about this one. Tolkien himself several times reference the history of Egypt as his inspiration but the history of Gondor clearly has more in common with Byzantium.

[@Diegoromir]

Tolkien makes it very clear that his inspiration in the Egyptians refers to some elements in particular, such as megalithic constructions, interest in his ancestors, in tombs and the tall crown like that of the pharaohs. "In many ways they resembled ‘Egyptians’ - the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs." The point is that he chose the Egyptians in particular to use these examples, but this can be applied to many other great civilizations, like Rome and its heir Byzantium, for example, where the similarities to Gondor are much more evident. Many other European civilizations also built large megalithic structures, were interested in their ancestors and in tombs. And he makes clear the differences between the realms in this text: "(But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebrew and even more puritan…) I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle."

[@virgilxavier1]

@@Diegoromir good point but I was actually thinking of another excerpt when he was comparing his world to Egypt. I'd have to get up but he talked about his interest in extremely long history like that of Egypt. He explained his attempt to create a history of numenor and Gondor in terms of Egypts thousands of years. As far as I know all of his explicit comparisons were Egyptian. I just think that Rome and Byzantium were so rooted in contemporary education and literature that the comparison came much more naturally and organically.

[@kevintierney5711]

“First Star Trek was vandalized…” My man came out swinging haha. My knowledge of the Vandals makes this a double-sided gem

[@Zveebo]

I assumed he was referring to The Next Generation there - the OG fans were absolutely furious when that started.

[@stgibbs86]

Nah, a bunch of OG fans loved NG. He is refering to the modern woke version.

[@lyricofwise6894]

​@@stgibbs86if so called fans are calling the new one woke simply because of casting, likely they werent fans of star trek to begin with

[@ekszentrik]

Whenever the chance presents itself I want to point out the the Army of the Dead in the books are purely a feint, NOT some kinetic reinforcements that could kill orcs. So the Rohirrim truly did save Gondor, they weren't just an ultimately barely necessary distraction.

[@TonyFontaine1988]

The battle of the Pellenor Fields with the alliance of Rondar and Gondar was inspired by the Catalunian Plains against Atilla. Theoden was inspired by Theodoric who also fell off his horse and died, with Atilla being like the Witch King. The uneasy alliance if Rohan and Gondar was inspired by Rome and the Visigoths.

[@daguroswaldson257]

That's just what I said. When I discovered that, I had a fictional daughter to Theodoric who was a shield maiden named Brenhilda and I based their relationship arc on the fil adaptation of Theoden's and Eowyn's relationship arc in the film.

[@TitoReni]

The two main human allies of Sauron were the haradrim and the orientals, who represent the two biggest threats that Europe has faced, muslisms and mongols. So, yeah, there is a lot of inspiration from the real world into Tolkien's legendarium.

[@alexzero3736]

none of them used Elephants in fight. Haradrim is much more similar to Ancient Persia troops, who invaded Ancient Greece

[@TheBespectacledN00b]

@@alexzero3736 Well again, things are all mixed. Given the Rohan are also part steppe nomad and also part Anglo-Saxon and the Egyptian influences on the Gondorians.

[@Midgard458]

And Russians. Moscow reminds me of Mordor.

[@TheOriginalBijamist]

@@alexzero3736The Timurids used Elephants…

[@lyricofwise6894]

The worst enemies that Europe (the greater part of Europe) had ever faced were the Barbarians of Germania, not because they were strong (in fact they were often weak especially compared to Rome, but conquering them would net a negative in returns since they offer only slaves) but because they took advantage of the fact of Rome (civilization) had MANY Civil Wars that did 70% of the work for them (20% other reasons)... and by taking advantage and being the final 10% blow, which thus brought the fall of Rome which ushered Europe into the Dark Ages and HUGE technological decline for almost a millenium...

[@TetsuShima]

5:41 Trojans during the destruction of the city: "We are all dead!" Aeneas: "Don't worry. I have a plan" Trojans: "Really?! What's you idea!?" Aeneas: "I shall form a family and, thousands of years later, two of my descendants will found a powerful city that will destroy our enemies. Sounds brilliant, right?" Trojans: "You are banished" Aeneas: "And with good cause!"

[@LordWyatt]

yOu’Re BaNiShEd *as Troy burns

[@tolkiencrusader6416]

Thank you for ointing out the show is disrespectful to lore, as they broke the timeline in the second age, since ar pharazon and celebrimbor are living around the same time according to the show, but in the lore celebrimbor died SA 1697 and pharazon was born in SA 3118, 1,421 years after the death celebrimbor, to put into perspective napoleon I emperor of the french was born in 1769 AD minus that by 1,421 years to get the year 348 AD, two years before constan I roman emperor died in 350 AD, so it would be like having a story with napoleon I and constans I living around the same time while the writers claim it to be faithful to history!

[@massacolonel5950]

The Siege of Minas Tirith and Battle of Pellenor Fields reminds me of The Siege of Aurelianum (Orleans) and The Battle of The Catalaunian Fields (Chalons) where Atilla was besieging the city until Flavius Aetius brought a Romano-Gothic-Frankish Army to defeat him. Like Théoden, Theodoric, the King of the Visigoths was slain during the battle. The Goths also had good heavy cavalry like the Rohirrim. That particular victory also prevented Atilla from taking all of Gaul. and kept the Western Roman Empire alive for another couple of decades.

[@ozgurceltikci9106]

Always considered Rohan as Bulgars under the rule of Tervel during the siege of 717-718. Nice to see similar thinking go in here :)

[@VerilyViscous]

One of my favorite parts of the Lord of the Rings is when Theodoric died in the charge to defend Rome against Attila at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains .... I mean Theoden died in the charge to defend Gondor against the Witch-king of Angmar at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

[@owenb8636]

Remember when Rohan pillaged Minas Tirith on the way to reconquering Minas Ithil for the men of the west? Idk what they were thinking

[@aurelian2668]

HAHAHAHAHHA😆

[@morriganmhor5078]

Maiorianus, you missed an important fact: the former capital of Gondor was not Minas Tirith, but Osgiliath, located on BOTH sides of the river Anduin, just like Constantinople and Pera.

[@michaelfisher7170]

I remember discovering Byzantine history as an avid reader in junior high.....learning about Constantinople was an amazing experience to me. Close on the heels of that..a friend introduced me to The Hobbit...then told me there was a trilogy sequel to it. And, as I read through, and learned about the great Gondorian city of Minas Tirith.....I had a...."hey wait a minute" moment. lol.

[@theicepickthatkilledtrotsk658]

Based take on modern shows Maiorianus.

[@semihozturk9807]

The Orcs i believe is inspired by Huns and Sauron from Attila

[@emretepe869]

Also, just like the Justinian plague, Gondor had a disastorous plague

[@charlietallman9583]

The rescue of Minas Tirith feels a lot like the rescue of Vienna in the siege of 1683. With the winged hussars being the riders of Rohan.

[@Novusod]

The battle of Pelennor and siege of Minus Tirith was a reenactment of the Siege of Constantinople in 717AD. The siege of Constantinople was broken when the Bulgars (Bulgarians) then a horse riding semi nomadic people attacked the Islamic armies that had surrounded Constantinople. The Bulars would summoned to the aid of Constantinople via fire signals just as what happened in the Lord of the Rings.

[@zakback9937]

islamic? Muslim force aghyoul.

[@daguroswaldson257]

The Bulgars were once friends with the Eastern Empire? I thought they were always enemies! I need to study more.

[@winxfriends1]

A lot of worldbuilders say that Mordor was cheaply designed with a squarish mountainous border, but I think it looks just like Anatolia. The River Anduin is also a very significant river that flows between Mordor and Gondor like the Bosphorus and Gondor is always wary of troops that manage to cross it. I see the battle of Pelennor as a convergence of all the times that an eastern power managed to enter and take Anatolia and cross into the Balkans, be it Sassanids, Seljuks or Ottomans, and the fantasy being that Constantinople would always stand and repel these invading powers. Frodo and Sam remind me of Heraclius's daring gambit to lift the Sassanid siege of Constantinople by attacking Ctesiphon. Rohan coming to Gondor's aid is similar to the Bulgarians attacking the Arabs as they sieged Constantinople. The way they are given land on Gondor's northern border is like how Eastern Rome would settle foederati at the Danube or allow the Bulgarians to be at the Danube while having a love-hate relationship with them. Easterlings are a parallel of the Nomads from the Northern Steppe who would invade the Balkans while the Corsairs are like the Muslim raiders who would harass the Aegean Islands. Harad would represent the Islamic states of the Middle East. The vassalage of the Easterlings and the Haradrim mirrors how Eastern Rome vassalised other states in the Balkans and the Middle East when it experienced resurgence during Basil II's rule.

[@chrisscruggs2545]

Interesting comparisons and parallels. Probably hard to find a fantasy writer who isn’t influenced to some extent by Roman/Greek history.

[@stevejohnson3357]

For a long time, until Irene, the Eastern Emperor was considered High King of Europe. In ancient times there was also a high king of Ireland and of the British. The idea of High King was also important to middle earth.

[@jamiemcintosh3030]

The remarks in the opening sequences...you are right. It is the effect of late-stage Capitalism. Only, if I could beg you from refraining from intoning the phrases "degenerate", or "degeneracy" or "degeneration", please dear friend of Late Roman History. I will explain my reasons later.

[@rogelioalonzo2911]

Turk=urk=orc=uruk. Coincidence? Maybe. Minas Ithil, being taken and turn to Morgoth worship. The loss of Christian Rome to Muslim Caliphate

[@daguroswaldson257]

Soldier: Send out messengers and call for aid! Visigoth King of Gallicia: And who will answer? Franks? Lombards? We are not so blessed on our friends as we are. Soldier: The Eastern Roman Empire will answer. Visigoth King: Rome? Where was Rome when the Huns invaded? Where was Rome when the Moslems closed in around us?

[@HYEpower]

as a Armenian I can get into this. You should visit the Roman ruins in Armenia, they are said to be the best preserved Roman ruins in the world. On the subject to me it reminds me of the Turk ottoman take over as well as their genocide on Armenia

[@mahmutyldrm1312]

Your boys got fucked boy 1915 best year of my life

[@lucabarbanti8211]

"There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world": turks

[@el_chico1313]

i would love to see them

[@isrisentoday]

Another similarity between the West and East Roman Empires would be, but not quite 100% spot on, would be Justinian's reconquest of Italy and North Africa and the defeat of the Witch King of Angmar by Gondor and the Elven alliance who sent aid to the remnants of the Arnorian regime.

[@RainintheBrain]

I heard that the battle of palernor fields was inspired by the battle of chalon where Attila was defeated by the Roman’s and gothic allies Theoden was inspired by theodoric the gothic king who died in the battle

[@anaconda470]

As a Star Trek fan you have my thanks. I enjoy your channel very much. I was so confused when the vandalisation of ST happened. And I heard mostly voices of approval. I'm glad that there's more and more intelligent people who decided to speak up about this.

[@paradox7358]

I'm a simple man, I see someone calling out the vandalisation of beloved franchises like LOTR, Star Trek and Star Wars, I give a like 👍

[@josephang9927]

I also noticed Gondor is very similar to Byzantium.

[@GwynOnly]

I've held this opinion for many years. Both Constantinople and Mines Tirith were the military bulwark of the West, holding back the Turks/Sauron by controlling the Dardanelles/Osgiliath. Constantinople was a city of 7 walls in which the outer wall was impregnable until the coming of the great cannon, read Grond. The defense of the city in 1453 was inspired by legendary heroes until one of them was wounded and had to be carried from the walls. During the long siege the defenders waited in vain for the coming of the West, but unlike Aragorn, the rescue never came. But the last Constintine was no Denathor: He fought heroically until he vanished forever into the disaster. "The fall of Constantinople was a personal disaster that happened to all of us only yesterday."

[@lyricofwise6894]

Attributing Constantinople to the West would be folly, also, it was the West and literally catholicism that that caused a far greater destruction via 4th crusade, where the eternal city Constantinople was unprepared. Also Tolkien didnt like the Roman Empire saying he likes diversity and hates homogeniety (wonder what he thought of the british and western colonial empires..)

[@nathanielscreativecollecti6392]

This is a fantastic review of modern cinema. They should give you all that budget to make historical movies about late Roman History.

[@BVargas78]

Gondor was Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire and Arnor was western Roman Empire.

[@jtgattrman3455]

This is a thought that I have held for a long time, spurred on by the themes of The Unbiased History, and then again with the discovery of Turtledove's "Videssos Cycle". The idea is compelling, if only because the actual history itself is so compelling in structure and theme.

[@thelastroman7791]

In a way, you could almost see the end of the Lord of the Rings and a restored Gondor as an apology to the Eastern Roman Empire from the West. An apology for not coming to its aid and for leaving the empire at the mercy of its many enemies.

[@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526]

Chad J.R.R. Tolkien vs Virgin Edward Gibbon .

[@lyricofwise6894]

Constantinople fell BECAUSE of catholicism and the West and their degeneracy, the 4th crusade on an unprepared Constantinople, the Ottomans were practically a mercy kill someone who was in pain.

[@aidanbarrett9313]

In terms of rubbishy modern movies, you forgot the 2000s Disney remakes of C.S. Lewis which made me re-watch the brilliant, early 1990s BBC adaptations.

[@vanmars5718]

Byzantines aka Eastern Romans were all people lived in the empire. That includes many ethnic populations. The last centuries of the empire when many new people arrived, those Romans remained were mainly the ethnic Greeks (as was always the capital of Constantinople anyway) thus up until today the term Romios is interchangeable with Greek, in Greece and Turkey. (Yes the Greek community in Istanbul is still officially the Roman community)

[@LouAlvis]

It seem Our Dear Scholar, Sebastian, has as much deopth of understading of Tolkien as that of Later Rome! perhaps some day he might revisit Tolkien, and give more in depth knowledge of that author and scholar

[@BVargas78]

I think it was. And Lebennin region is analog to Lebanon which for a long time was a Christian bastion in an an islamic region. Likewise Lebennin was populated by people who were similar to the haradrim, but were loyal to Gondor.

[@andrejkolarik8323]

I personally thought of Cilicia being like Harondor and constant Gondorian attempts to retake Umbar akin to the Crusades.

[@Georgios1821]

Short answer Yes

[@Johnsmith99663]

There were two big things Tolkien always asserted about his LoTR series: that it was fundamentally a Catholic series, and that the lands of Middle Earth were essentially Europe 6,000 years ago, before the continents rearranged into their present form, with the Shire specifically being located where the British Isles would eventually form. With all this in mind, it's not hard to see why he put Mordor in the southeast corner of Middle Earth. Whether he meant to or not, he made Mordor and the orcs as stand-ins for the Turks, and the great threat the Muslim Turks were posing to the kingdoms of Christian Europe. LoTR is largely a conservative, Catholic fantasy series where, instead of the west allowing Orthodox Constantinople to fall into the hands of the Turk, Catholic and Orthodox Christians unite to destroy the Turkish aggressor that's constantly coming after them. It's so unsubtle that someone would have to dedicate themselves to ignoring it not to see it.

[@alexzero3736]

Actually it s mixed. Capital of Gondor is castle-city built over mountain, not even close to martime capital as Constatinople, also it s myth is the Numenor - kingdom that drowned - Altlantis reference - Greek myth. So Gondor is both Greece and Byzantium. Orientals may look like turks, but Haradrim are more close to Persians.

[@jacktomas1596]

when the last roman emperor died he left the title to Aragon........ something something Aragorn being a successor to a powerful kingdom.

[@danieljacksononearth]

The subject matter of this video is interesting, but your irrelevant bashing of every recent sci-fi and fantasy series as "garbage" in the introduction, while fashionable on KZbin, is annoying. As a long time sci-fi and fantasy fan, not all of these new productions are good, but it's pretty lazy, not to mention inaccurate, to suggest that they're all bad just because they're new. Someone as intelligent and thoughtful as you are can do better--maybe just leave that out the next time you talk about Tolkein or Star Wars or whatever.

[@thanell1373]

Well geographically Gondor is like Greece and the orcs Easterlings etc are like Persians Turks Arabs

[@kevinraposo348]

My fascination with the western kingdoms of men in middle earth is due in part to the similarities between them and The Roman empire. And of course because of how well written and represented they are in both books and movies I mean the first time I saw the white city I was amazed at how beautiful it was and being very young it stuck with me. And the white tree was another thing that impressed me a lot it's always one of my favorite part of the movies seeing it or even reading about it in the books. And then you have King Elessar which is what every man should aspire to be.

[@halsnyder296]

I never made that connection! Of course, I’ve never claimed to be an expert on Roman history, just a fan of history in general. I can see the similarities. Oddly, I almost failed reading in first grade because I wouldn’t read the primers, I was more interested in reading The Hobbit. Lastly, I totally concur with your views on modern movies! I don’t know who said it but - read a good book before they make a movie out of it.

[@aidanbarrett9313]

"Cleanse my mind of this utter garbage!" I laughed out loud when you said that.

[@carloshurtado955]

Broooo I loved this as you dont know Maiorian. Lit combining my fav piece of literature with my fav period in hist. May Iluvatar bless you brother

[@grahamturner1290]

Funnily enough, I was talking about this with a colleague at work just the other day... ⚔️

[@Midgard458]

Check out a series of books that are Tolkien inspired. Visigothic.

[@tarionmarsden157]

Can you do ba sing SE from Avatar and compare it with Constantinople

[@mariusmic6573]

The Ottomans were totally Sauron's army for us in the Balkans...

[@Cgl3g3nd]

Rhohan is actually based on Anglo saxons added the horse lord part tho.

[@markolson4660]

You are too kind to current TV/movie franchises!

[@Enzo012]

So the dark skinned Easterlings were the Caliphate?

[@ADINSANE]

no no the turks being sauron makes too much sense, i think you're onto something there.

[@6XenYang9]

I was suspicious but the first phrase alone deserved a like.

[@brober]

Great analogy. I can see Mehmed as Sauron.

[@yazovgaming]

REAL

[@jamesjacobs3753]

How do you avoid getting copyright strikes?

[@interestinglife934]

Great video! But prepare to be attacked by youtube...

[@jamesg9840]

Where was Byzantine when the West Marche fell?

[@ThalesGMota]

Yes,Tolking is Job it’s Fantastic.

[@stepanpytlik4021]

Now this is a video I definitely didn't exoect.

[@elmedioall]

That was interesting but a more direct theft of History by a fictional book was Isaac asimov's series "FOUNDATION"... it's been many years since I read it so I don't remember all the names but here we go.. a vast Intergalactic Empire falls apart(Rome) and a small part of it run by very smart Traders and intellectuals is a republic that does succeed in saving some of the legacy of the empire(Venice?). At one point Insignia of the Empire starts reappearing in different spots of its former expense. I'm degrade Emperor( Justinian) has a brilliant General... his name is.. get this.. BEL -RIOS(Bel[isa]rios)

[@elmedioall]

There was a typo it was supposed to say a great emperor

[@ingold1470]

Also the periphery is taken over by a bunch of bandits who become lords, which is how feudalism is perceived by modernists like Asimov. Said lords are then enthralled by a sham religion that was probably the inspiration for the Adeptus Mechanicus in Warhammer 40k, but in universe it is an allegory for the Catholic Church, who did indeed preserve knowledge from the classical age much like the Foundation.

[@tatsuya961111]

numenor＝roman empire Gondor＝eastern roman empire aka byzantine empire aronor＝western roman empire

[@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526]

Númenor was more like Atlantis.

[@12gmkk29]

The new tv show house of dragon has a lot of inspiration from the Byzantine

[@anjanpratapsingh727]

Their dresses look very much Byzantine

[@Kyle-qd2sy]

The moment I first saw a still of Rhaenyra’s proclamation as heir I immediately thought the same thing

[@gustavorubenbessolo2569]

The Rohirrim are based on the Anglo-Saxons, all their names are of that origin, and the peoples of Rhovanion are based on the Goths. On the other hand, the friendship between Rohan and Gondor resembles the friendship between the Slavs and Constantinople. Some battles in Middle-earth, such as the one at Helm's Deep, are based on the defense of Vienna against the Turks and the charge of Sobieski's Polish winged hussars.

[@jackholler3572]

No it was not. Dont be ridivulous

[@belisarius1453]

Finally we agree on something!

[@julesguermonprez1392]

More similarities (or applicability) to spot : oh gladly. -Letter 168 : "It came while I was away, in Gondor (sc. Venice), as a change from the North Kingdom, or I would have answered before." --in the chapter on the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Umbar fleet hijacked by Aragorn and the Grey company has dromons. Speaking of the Rings of Power : -the Numenorean helmets have a very late roman vibe. perhaps wisigoth too. (though the rest of the livery makes me think of that charlemagne chessboard more than anything else) (and there's the case of Miriel, whose armor lands more on the sarmatian/parthian side. not sure if the spikes on the centurion crest of her helm are Sol Invictus or Helios-like, though.) -Armenelos' byzantine-meets-art deco touches -but more interestingly the city's arsenal is disposed like the carceres of a roman circus. (oh and on a couple establishing shots you can spot a full roman circus. no idea if it'll get some us. or what it may be used for) -Pelargir teased for season 2. bring it on.

[@windalfalatar333]

Poignant and well-supported. Remember that it is an old myth in Britain, which I suppose came out of the 18th Century, that the British are descended from the Romans (which itself, of course, is entirely true to a minor degree) by virtue of Felix Brutus, Langaberd, Tirius and ultimately Romulus, who in turn was descended from Aeneas, the latter being the hero who fled from the sack of Troy with his father, son and house gods on his back. The Fall of Troy mirrors the Fall of Gondolin in that Tuor and Idril Celebrindal fled Gondolin as the forces of the First Dark Lord, Morgoth, were sacking it, with their son, Eärendil. So the British were ultimately descended from the Trojans just as the Dúnedain of Gondor were descended from the Númenoreans and their royal house from the Edain of the First Age, the Eldar (West Elves) and Melian of the Maiar (lesser deities). There was also the Plague of Gondor, which I think affected Arnor also (at least there was pestilence there too) like the Antonine Plague. Most empires, including the British, the French, the Russian and the U.S., compare themselves to Rome, the latter sort of being the ultimate example of a long enduring polity of this kind, but also one which empires not only seek to model themselves on but also to avoid the pitfalls of (impossible in the long run). This sort of associative mythology of the British actually being Roman and Trojan has sort of been mirrored by France (through Charlemagne) and Russia (through Byzantium and the Orthodox faith) but as this is something Tolkien, growing up in what proved to be the autumn years of the British Empire, would have learnt about as a child at school, and something which not improbably had an influence on his writing.

[@scumskimmer]

The Byzantines are definitely there, as you mention, Tolkien said as much. In addition, I've always thought that the siege of Minas Tirith had echoes of the Battle of the Lechfeld, with the Magyars standing in for the Orcs, and the 1683 siege of Vienna; this last one even had a dramatic Polish cavalry charge sweeping away the Ottoman army.

[@johnfoster6412]

The ruling house of Brittany for hundreds of years was the House of Rohan, whose standard was a white horse on a green field. The legendary founder of Brittany was Cynan Meriadoc, whilst Meriadoc Brandybuck was the hobbit that swore service to Rohan. Tolkien was a Professor of Dark Age Language and History, he used stuff from everywhere in his expertise in his fiction.

[@rfarrr2817]

For real, this channel doesn't get the plaudits it richly deserves 👍🏻🤟🖖🖖🖖🖖

[@ramkitty]

I agree with your comparison but feel antioch is more comparable for Minas tirath. Geography, the layout the eastlanders are right on the boarder. Seeing stones could be allegorical to the speed message could transit iirc 10 day transit across abbassad empire.

[@robertdobie3400]

Great video! As a passionate fan of both Tolkien and late Roman history, it addresses a topic I've thought about for many years. One possible parallel the video does not mention, however, are what I think are the striking similarities between the northern Kingdom of Arnor and the Carolingian Empire: just as the Carolingian Empire was a rather pale imitation in Northwestern Europe of the Eastern Roman Empire, so was Arnor, in many ways, the "step-child" of Gondor in the Northwest of Middle-earth; and just as the Carolingian Empire broke into the three smaller kingdoms of West Francia, East Francia and Lotharingia, so Arnor broke up into the three successor kingdoms of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur. Finally, just as the successor kingdoms of Charlemagne were destroyed by Viking invasions from the north, so were the successor kingdoms of Arnor destroyed by Angmar to the north.

[@thelostpsychosis]

Tolkien was also heavily inspired by the Vikings, especially with the runes the dwarves use and their names, take Thorin's company for example, Fili and Kili are names of two dwarves from Viking Sagas.

[@awkwardowl8835]

Love your work, mostly. Where I must intervene is your demarcation line between the two Roman Empires, on River Drina. That's the 19. century Habsburg's and Vatican's agenda and it does not represent the reality nor historical, nor ethnical. In reality, first Serbian states that were documented are in the areas of Herzegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro, Kosovo and Metochia and they still are considered the Serbian lands for many reasons, the main one is that majority of our most distinguished aristocrats and kings, scientists and artists are from there, even today. These states were called Hum, Travunia, Zeta and Raska. So the demarcation line on Drina is still on Western elite's bucket-list, after 1000 years of incessant wars and jesuitic brain-washing. Wait till the truth of their 1000 years long forceful conversion of Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism hits the conscience of the world. Untill then, stay assured that the demarcation line between Catholics and Orthodoxes is definitely not on Drina, but on land borders between Bosnia and Croatia. It's been very well documented that the idea of extending the sphere of Catholicism till River Drina and all along the Adriatic Sea, was the main cause of Ustasha's slaughters of Serbs during the WW2, although the Croats were turned against Serbs by Hubsburgs, in late 19. century.

[@michaelnp2323]

Something I have often wondered about. Thank you for an excellent video. Also really like your points on Hollywood and modern films.

[@nightvvisher7713]

i know, its not directly about rome, but would be good, if you could do more about roman descriptions of others, like, how sure are we that suebi or vandals were germanic and not slavic, were huns really asians or just big multiwhatever horde etc, are there any writings about how lets say burgundians behaved when they settled in roman teritorry, also what happened to cities in gaul, illirycum, hispania, etc, you covered italy and britania, or when romans were in germania during augustus, have they built any cities, roads etc, what happened with it etc, some rare topics, no one knows much about...

[@jonburnett4950]

The use of horse archers by both the Byzantines and the Rohirrim always fascinates me. ✌️🤓

[@mohammedsaysrashid3587]

A wonderful Introducing ...Yes I think Behind collapsing of Great Cities or Empires of Ancient world there were Legend stories created inside Defeated Minds as (Disasters occurred ) or as Bravery -strength showed of Victory side talkers of far Past

[@allenantonio4389]

The new Vandals

[@samiman5606]

Umbar = turks

[@daguroswaldson257]

Fascinating! I even read online that King Theoderic of the Visigoths and his death at the Catalaunian fields against the Huns was the inspiration for Theoden and his death on the Pelenor fields.

[@MBP1918]

Interesting

[@seanmcgrath7700]

Yes completely the whole story is the lead up to the siege of vienne.

[@Midgard458]

I believe Mehmed II was indeed a dark lord. Ottomans were Orcs

[@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526]

Dovahhatty intensifies.

[@lyricofwise6894]

At least they bring civilization at the time unlike the barbarians of Germania (like the visigoths) who only brought the Dark Ages that lasted almost a millenium, a technological decline so steep that Europe became not even worth mentioning at the time except for Byzantium.

[@Tarquinthetyrant]

I KNEW IT!!! Bro ive had this theory for ages

[@quantumfoam539]

Unpopular opinion: Byzantines were not reallyRomans but mostly Greeks and to a lesser extent Armenians.

[@vanmars5718]

Byzantines aka Eastern Romans were all people lived in the empire. That includes many ethnic populations. The last centuries of the empire when many new people arrived, those Romans remained were mainly the ethnic Greeks (as was always the capital of Constantinople anyway) thus up until today the term Romios is interchangeable with Greek, in Greece and Turkey

[@darthwizzywizard]

100% agree. You are totally correct on all accounts.

[@BamberdittoPingpong]

Based af. You are absolutely correct