Was Umar The Messiah?

Was Umar The Messiah? | Robert G. Hoyland PhD
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Timestamps
0:00 -- Start
7:20 - Umar named Faruq
8:18 - Nicephorus manuscript
9:00 - Sebeos source from prisoners of war
10:32 - Meaning of Faruq in Syriac
11:05 - Umar riding on messianic donkey
13:32 - Sebeos on the Jewish Temple being rebuilt
15:45 - Sefer Zerubbabel manuscript
17:19 - Qibla towards Jerusalem
19:22 - Theophilus of Edessa
20:13 - Theopanes manuscript
20:51 - Michael the Syrian and Agapius manuscript
22:10 - Anastasius of Sinai
22:28 - John Moschus
25:14 - Travels of Rabbi Petachia
26:06 - William of Tyre
32:47 - Earliest mention of Mecca in non-Muslim source
34:19 - Secrets of Simon ben Yohai manuscript in Munich
38:53 - Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer manuscript
39:40 - Ibn Sa’d on rebuilding the Temple
46:59 - Apocalypse of Shenoute manuscript
52:21 - Islamic, Jewish and Christian images of Dome of the Rock
55:15 - Umayyad menorah coin
57:07 - Isho’yahb III manuscript
1:02:37 - Persian-Jewish alliance
1:05:56 - Byzantine-Arab Chronicle 741 manuscript
1:06:25 - Chronicle 775AD manuscript
1:07:31 - History of the Patriachs of Alexandria manuscript
1:07:52 - Samaritan Chronicle manuscript
#messiah #mythvision #MythVisionPodcast #mvp #dereklambert

[@kaosarahmed6560]

The 'Farooq' was the given title to Omar by Prophet Muhammad. In Arabic it means who can categorize things between good and evil.

[@OksintasObones]

According to the Arab khoza3balat yeah

[@gazikhan3668]

I am viewing your interviews with great interest. I find them very interesting. It was very rare to find any Western academic discussing different aspects of Islam until recently. Thank you for your efforts to bring Islam on the global stage for discussions. Judaism, Christianity and Islam, after all, are all about one and only God. So, apart from various arguments and differences of opinion, I find it very interesting.

[@donquixote3602]

Farook is an Arabic masculine name that means the one who distinguishes between truth and falsehood, the separator, the one who differentiates between matters. Everything that differentiates between two things is Farook. It is one of the names of the sword, and it is the nickname of Omar Ibn Al-Khattab because he was a just caliph, who distinguished between truth and falsehood. It is in Syriac, meaning the chosen one

[@inquisitivemind007]

To quote Jeffery Arthur in The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an (p. 227, Brill 2007): "Linguistically, there is a closer equivalence in the Aram[aic]. פרקז, פזרקז deliverence or redemption , and Geiger, 56 ff., suggested this as the source of the Arabic word [فرقاب]. He would see the primary meaning in viii, 29 - "He will grant you redemption and forgive your evil deeds," where the Targumic פזרקנא would fit exactly (cf. Ps. iii, 9, etc). Nowhere, however, is פזרקנא used of revelation, and Geiger is forced to explain فرقاب in the other passages by assuming that Muhammad looked upon revelation as a means of deliverance from error." Both فروق and فرقاب share the same Syro-Aramaic root, فرق, and likewise share multiple senses. It is therefore reasonable to associate the sense, redeemer, with the Arab name, فروق.

[@OksintasObones]

False alfarouq means the saviour in Aramaic and Syriac .. Omar was from a qureish tribe from lataqia

[@simosandboifan989]

@@OksintasObones He was of Bani Adiyy.

[@rainbowkrampus]

Dang, this is a ton of stuff packed into a single episode. I'll have to take it in bits and pieces.

[@alhassani626]

59:00 It is referring to the conquest of some place around the Sinai. So as per terms of surrender people could either convert to Islam or give some form of compensation. This has been the universal rule that every conquered people are allowed to convert and become citizens of the Islamic State, where they are directly subjects. Or they could give some form of monetary compensation or leave the lands altogether.

[@Stardust475]

Left out jizya and sex slavery, plunder too

[@jzaibkhan7864]

@Shashank Tripathi The Muslims believe in the religion of Abraham and Qaba was built by him. Try to comprehend, we are not asked to worship the Qaba or Aqsa we worship the God of Abraham in the direction of Qaba for unity( rich,poor together in one direction)

[@jzaibkhan7864]

And we are told in the holy Qur'an to tell you the Christians that we believe the religion of Abraham, Whatever he believed we believe in it. God new you wouldn't thin'k pass son of God,trinity concept

[@Stardust475]

@JZaib Khan Muhammad wanted to know the religion of Abraham he included pagan beliefs in Islam. Hanif is classical syriac means 'pagan'!

[@jzaibkhan7864]

@@Stardust475 Jesus did the same, he said, he wasn't sent to change any law from the previous book

[@Anwar-Mian]

Umar (May Allah be pleased with him) was not the Messiah. He was the second Caliph. The Messiah is Jesus (peace be upon him).

[@DusTman761]

We dont talking abouth faith, we talking about historically evidence

[@Anwar-Mian]

@@DusTman761 We know historical evidence about Umar a lot. He was one of the close companions of Prophet Muhammad and a Caliph but nothing more than that. Jesus is the Messiah to the Children of Israel and who would also come at the end of time.

[@inquisitivemind007]

From a Jewish point of a view the Messiah can be non-Jewish like in the case of the Persian king Cyrus who was the annointed one as mentioned in Isaiah 45:1 and captured the Holy Land from the Babylonians and rebuilt Solomon's Temple; for the Jews they were looking for a Cyrus the Great figure in Umar.

[@Alias_Reign]

⁠​⁠@@inquisitivemind007a Messiah can be a non Jew, The Messiah is exclusively Jewish. There is a difference. To the other guy, there’s almost no information on who or what Umar was until the 8th century, so the information we have (even Islamic information) is clouded by what those who came after him wanted us to believe, not necessarily what’s true. I mean historically it’s not even known if a group of people called Muslims existed until around the rule of Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan where we see a deviation away from other groups and then later on the 8th century where we have writings detailing Muslims as a distinct group. Before then we see coins of mu’awiyah that feature a cross on the reverse side of the coinage issued by him. Very much suggesting there isn’t a clear differentiation between early “Muslims” and Christians.

[@OksintasObones]

😂😂😂 Omar was from Syria

[@daviesp2003]

its a shame that his microphone is terrible in every interview with Hoylland

[@OdonLafontaine]

Pure high-level scholarship. And a very worthy successor to Patricia Crone who was the first to designate Umar as the "redeemer", i.e. a messianic figure.

[@thepennydreadful95]

Your right he is a high level scholar much more so than say Father Edouard-Marie Gallez 🤣

[@12yearoldscotch]

Has Derek ever had a guest discuss the work of Ignaz Goldziher??

[@radwanabu-issa4350]

There are many manuscripts that document early Islam with various degree of accordance and emphasis. It does make the topic quite interesting authentic history!

[@venenareligioest410]

Muslims believe that Muhammad was followed by a series of Caliphs (literally ‘successors’). The first four of these are known as the ‘Rightly Guided Ones’ (or ‘Rashidun’) and the period of their rule is still viewed by many Muslims as a vanished golden age. According to the official version of Sunni Muslim history, these Caliphs ruled for the following periods: • Abu Bakr: 632-634 CE • Umar ibn al-Khattab: 634-644 CE • Uthman ibn ‘Affan: 644-656 CE • ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib: 656-661 CE If the absence of Muhammad from the wider historical record is puzzling, it is doubly the case for these leaders. It could perhaps be argued that Muhammad never ventured outside of the Arabian Peninsula (except for a mythical ‘night journey’ to Jerusalem) after taking up the mantle of leadership of the Muslim community. In the case of the men listed above, however, Muslim history tells us that they had a stunning impact on the wider world. Abu Bakr supposedly launched the early conquests as Muslim armies started to threaten the Persian and Roman empires. Umar is presented in Islamic sources as having been at the head of the Muslims forces as they conquered first Jerusalem and then the Sassanian (Persian) Empire and he thus became the ruler of one of the most important political entities of late antiquity. Under Uthman the wide-ranging conquests continued (albeit at a slower pace) and he is pictured as a man with enough political control to standardize the text of the Qur’an over a vast area. Ali, who would go on to become the major figure within Shi’a Islam, stood at the centre of the first Islamic Civil War (known as the ‘Fitna’), a conflict that supposedly tore the Islamic world apart and that had stunning repercussions in terms of the political stability of the areas ruled over by Islam. In short, the official Islamic record paints the ‘Rightly Guided Caliphs’ as giants on the geopolitical stage of their day. Yet, as with Muhammed, they are absent from the primary source record dealing with this period. We must wait for documents (especially the histories of Muhammad Al-Tabari, 839-923 CE and Ibn Kathir, 1300-1372 CE) that were written hundreds of years after their supposedly glorious exploits to even learn of their existence. Think for a moment how utterly implausible this is. We have primary source evidence for even the minutest engagements in the back-and-forth wars between the Romans and Persians. Yet the person who supposedly finally brought Persian Empire to its knees (Umar ibn al-Khattab) is never so much as mentioned in the contemporary primary source record. This simply beggars belief. The first of the Arab caliphs to definitively appear in traceable archaeological records is not one of the four ‘Rightly Guided’ ones, but a ruler named Muawiya. He was the first leader of the Umayyad Caliphate and acted as Caliph from (661-680 CE). The only problem, from a Muslim perspective at least, is that Muawiya is not presented as a Muslim ruler at all. An inscription on a dam near Ta'if (in modern-day Saudi Arabia) built around 678 CE simply calls him ‘The Commander of the Faithful’. No mention whatsoever is made to Mecca, to Muhammad or to the Qur’an. This is very surprising considering the subsequent insistence on the Islamic confession of faith on all official documents and inscriptions. The Mecca Mystery; Peter Townsend.

[@mogbaba]

Dr. Hoyland seems still uses his old microphone!

[@HHasan-of2vi]

What about the date of most ancient manuscript of old and new testament can you make a program on your oodcast with Biblical Scholar.

[@thepennydreadful95]

Gotta love hoyland, he lays out his reasoning and is generally non committal to any one historical view. Awesome scholar. I've carefully considered the idea the caliphs were building a third temple, but I just don't see it. For example the praise heaped on Cyrus the Great for allowing the Jews to return home and construct the second temple is massive. One would imagine a third temple would be equally praised, if not indeed more so, as substantially more time has elapsed at this point than the 70 years spent in babylon, You would imagine Umar would be a national hero to this day. At very least we would expect the Jewish polemic of Umar built the 3rd temple and them evil later caliphs disfigured the piety of Umar. In these sources we see expectations then silence on the subject, this tells me it's just that, expectations but nothing manifest. The key to this I feel is the role of the caliph in the early rashidun, clearly he is a leader, but from where his authority originates, why etc is very difficult to understand, perhaps even impossible with any degree of certainty. Under them conditions I think hoyland is correct to not offer much speculation, instead Parsing out what we can say to offer up probabilities.

[@Halal_Dan]

Their hearts were full of hate and arrogance, which is likely why they have no gratefulness towards the Muslims even after the Muslims saved them from Christians many times. Even during the time of the Prophet, they testified that he was indeed a Messenger, yet they still vowed to oppose him only because he was an Arab and not a Jew.

[@fadiljelin7297]

Excellent point!. I don’t appreciate the title given by the host and his whole interviewer’s style. He almost keeps putting words into Hoylland’s mouth. You have to listen very carefully to actually understand that he is not really claiming with a strong conviction what the host is insinuating (the whole interview style is awful) - he insinuates something and then he he keeps thanking him and than keeps asking him the same thing like he is trying to get him to agree to his point of view. The host talks too much with an agenda. I find that dishonest. I know he is trying to gain patrons and subscribers. But don’t be so relentless. Like Dr. Sean Anthony says - The problem with revisionism is that it creates more questions than it answers. Not that islamic traditional accounts shouldn’t be taken with a grain of salt. And Hoylland is honest, he is just raising questions but is not necessarily committed to any viewpoint. When he does NOT find much proof for something he says so. I think he learned well from late teacher’s mistakes (Patricia Crone ‘s mistakes in her early career). But I think this leaves him vulnerable to misuse by people who have religious polemical and political agendas like in this case, where people partially quote him, and turn his questions into definitive claims. He is really just raising questions and making definitive claims,

[@andrewsuryali8540]

While Umar allowed Jews to return to Jerusalem, it doesn't mean he was actually nice to them overall. After all, he was the one who expelled them from Arabia and tried to do the same in Egypt. Basically, this idea of Umar the Messiah, even if it's true, was probably held specifically only by Levantine Jews who weren't aware yet of the fates of their kin elsewhere in the Islamic Empire. Once they realized what was really going on, they would have changed their minds damn fast. Cyrus is a different case as he literally reestablished the Davidic Kingdom (for a short while at least).

[@thepennydreadful95]

@@fadiljelin7297 I like the host Mr Lambert, I think he is honest in his approach but his unfamiliarity with this subject does show, for instance the majority of shows on islam are hinting at this idea regarding apocalyptic Jewish messianism, it's relation to Islam etc. It gets an audience to take the most extreme revisions from credible scholarship but this can cause more harm than good for people's understanding of what's more likely. it's like the Christian who now rejects faith, then immediately starts reading the most sensation Christ myth stuff to make themselves comfortable with there apostasy 🤣. It does shows signs of catering to the emotive. I think mythvision would do better to start at the beginning, closely examine each source and start to form some opinions before doing too much speculation. In the opinion of most scholars shoemaker is a little speculative, even he would say that, it's quite far off from mainstream the line of questioning.

[@fadiljelin7297]

I agree. You are much kinder to Lambert than me, though! Sometimes I just can’t have any patience for him. He is definitely little to sensational for my taste, which can come across as dishonest sometimes…

[@venuscraig748]

Great preparation Derek. 😇

[@5cats267]

if they asked an Arab child about the word Al-farouq الفاروق he will said it comes from verb فرق Faraqa and Al Faeouq a tittle simply means in Arabic "The person who differentiates between right and wrong"

[@inquisitivemind007]

To quote Jeffery Arthur in The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an (p. 227, Brill 2007): "Linguistically, there is a closer equivalence in the Aram[aic]. פרקז, פזרקז deliverence or redemption , and Geiger, 56 ff., suggested this as the source of the Arabic word [فرقاب]. He would see the primary meaning in viii, 29 - "He will grant you redemption and forgive your evil deeds," where the Targumic פזרקנא would fit exactly (cf. Ps. iii, 9, etc). Nowhere, however, is פזרקנא used of revelation, and Geiger is forced to explain فرقاب in the other passages by assuming that Muhammad looked upon revelation as a means of deliverance from error." Both فروق and فرقاب share the same Syro-Aramaic root, فرق, and likewise share multiple senses. It is therefore reasonable to associate the sense, redeemer, with the Arab name, فروق.

[@5cats267]

@@inquisitivemind007 i am arab there is no word in our langauge is فرقاب we have root of word الفاروق al farouq which is فرق faraq so we dont need to find other langauge to explain its meaning

[@inquisitivemind007]

@5cats so you think the Arabic language is pure is it? No words from other languages entered it? I'd advise you to watch the interview with Marijn van Putten on foreign words in the Quran.

[@5cats267]

@@inquisitivemind007 we have foreign words such as جهنم or إستبرق but those words have no roots in the Arabic language but al Farouq is Arabic word has a verb "root" which is فرق faraqa.. An arab boy in the premier school know that .. فرق يفرق أفرق فارق فاروق يعني هنا الفعل بصوره الثلاث "الماضي والمضارع والأمر" وأيضا اسم الفاعل والمصدر

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@5cats267 Does the Arab boy in premier school know that the 2 times in Tabari when Umar was called Faruq was by a Jew and ex-Jew? Does the Arab boy in premier school know that not only was Umar called Faruq by a Jew and an ex-Jew but it had to do with Jerusalem and the Foundation Stone where the Jewish Temple once stood? I'm sure the Arab boy in premier school will realise that the Jew and ex-Jew who called Umar Faruq weren't using the Arabic dictionary but were using the word Faruq based on the Hebrew dictionary and they meant Umar was the Redeemer.

[@atiharsh1993]

1:01:30 half of the property could means part of it..coz jizya means part of the whole not whole but a certain part of it..

[@inquisitivemind007]

The interesting thing about that letter is that if the Quran abrogates the Gospels then why are the Arabs doing what is reported in that letter?

[@atiharsh1993]

@@inquisitivemind007 Who said Qur'an abbrogates gospels.. Qur'an didn't rather it corrected them..

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@aTiHaRsh Quran cancels out all previous scriptures and now one has to follow the Quran to achieve salvation.

[@sunset2.00]

​@@inquisitivemind007 nah Quran says people of the book will go to heaven as long as they believe in one God, believe in the hour ,do good deeds but being a Muslim guarantees heaven after getting punishment for those who deserve and better reward for those who were pious

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@Sunset I'm talking about present day: Quran cancels out the Torah meaning it's not valid if someone has heard about Muhammad and doesn't follow him. Only if you haven't heard about Muhammad or Islam is the Torah valid today.

[@amaarquadri]

Great video! But somebody has got to buy this man a decent microphone!

[@anannyayahoo4197]

Hi, I was wondering if you could bring someone who can discuss about how Abraham became the father of the nations or more important than the first man or father Adam. Thanks.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Wikipedia: "In Abrahamic religions, a messiah  'the anointed one' is a savior or liberator of a group of people. The concepts of messianism, and of a Messianic Age originated in Judaism, and in the Hebrew Bible, in which a mashiach is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil." Still waiting.

[@TheInterestedObserver]

It is ejaculation. This is why they pour the oil over a bald head to signify the phallus ejaculating. In that sense there have been many messiahs, religious, civil and military including non-Jewish for example various Assyrian and Persian leaders but that is for another day. The root is ejaculation.

[@yoelpardede9480]

​​@@TheInterestedObserver There is many messiah, but only one match all prophecy in Jewish book.. Which is a person who punished and rejected by own people. How the messiah who being punished but still save peoples and make miracle, different than other, that is the key... And there won't be other messiah in the future but judge, because the world situation today is not for messiah no more, but for judge.

[@TheInterestedObserver]

@@yoelpardede9480 Well I guess it depends on which 'holy' book you choose to follow. Jews do not think the meshiach has arrived yet, Muslims say that person is Dajjal and only their book matters now. Christians say it is Jesus and eventually they turned Jesus into GOD! At some point we have to sit back with an honest appraisal which says. They cannot *ALL* be right (as they are opposing narratives) and there is a *veeeeeery* good chance that *none* of them are right because let's face it, it is all state sponsored information.

[@yousuf6382]

No ! In Islam it is not A messiah in Islam does not mean a liberator or a savior. messiah comes from a root m-s-h which means (مسح\wipe), because when he wiped or touched (masaha) the sick with his hands, they were healed. It has nothing to do with the meaning of anointing with the anointing of holy oil, as in Judaism and Christianity

[@yoelpardede9480]

@@yousuf6382 The problem is, no messiah in mecca in 6th century and before. Islamic explanation is useless.

[@MohamadAlb]

Could you make a history video about the zamzam well in Mecca?

[@dewibulananakdewa]

I can explain to you

[@priestdamon]

@@dewibulananakdewa Go ahead enlighten us.

[@dewibulananakdewa]

@@priestdamon kzbin.infoey3IXC7CGiw?feature=share this is just a hint about zamzam and will continue the history how zamzam well was created

[@kulupterkutuk7369]

​@@dewibulananakdewaSuniti🤣 Ngapain Loe Kesini?🤣 Agama Loe Ke Roasting Ma Derek Mulu🤣

[@murielpucoe9213]

The zam zam well name started at the Kathisma church near jerusalem on your way to Bethlehem, which was a marian shrine. It was a byzantine style and the dome of the rock was built with the same plans. Then the church was demolished by the arabs and hidden under sand with the well. The vatican also had a zam zam well with sweet water. Then when mecca appeared in 741... the zam zam well also appeared there.

[@a.a.ismael4255]

Fascinating

[@Al.S.]

Does the doctor have a microphone ❓🤔

[@petergranlund7082]

Is it impossible to prepare better to these streams especially when you get somebody like Hoyland on your channel. The sound is awfull and I'm missing words

[@BasedKungFu]

It's the professors internet connection.

[@AntoanKurttwan]

Derek this was amazing show

[@inquisitivemind007]

With those amazing coins aswell. I didn't know there were coins with Muhammad the messenger of Allah on one side and the menorah 🕎 on the other. It's clear the menorah represents the Jewish ✡️ Temple.

[@istaruscanada6572]

Watching these guys is amusing as they often provide great entertainment for a lower intellectual audience. Their subtle facial expressions when they mock others can reveal their intellectual capacities. hahahah classic

[@inquisitivemind007]

Is that a rebuttal of this interview? Typical response from Muslim Apologists ☪️

[@ahmadradwan5914]

😂

[@istaruscanada6572]

@@inquisitivemind007 rebuttal KZbin video by writing comments? You clearly in their level I shouldn’t reply but I had to tell u this 😊

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@istaruscanada6572 other people write comments and tell us why they don't agree.

[@bornbranded29]

Where's an actual response to the cited claims?

[@danp777d3]

Please ask your guests to have a good microphone so we can understand them

[@whitefox8291]

Geez, missed half of what's been said

[@gsxii1292]

Wait how did the non muslim sources talked about it and he was a muslim 🙂

[@venenareligioest410]

“Custom is powerful - men rest contented in the prejudices of their birth, and leave the care of the most essential matters to interested parties. Interested parties who make it a rule to uphold the hate, bigotry and the received opinions, AND WHO DARE NOT OVERTURN THEM LEST IN DOING SO THEY WOULD LOSE THEIR OWN LIVING! The Three Imposters.. Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

[@atifbangash]

Is it possible that Mrwmy from Isho'Yahb III is mentioning this man called "Marwan" during those days?

[@saadsalman6641]

ہوسکتا ہے

[@gnosticquran]

There is a debate about this designator in Yshoyahb letters: some scholars connects a term to the Marwan province, some to Oman

[@algerianchaouki5705]

Farooq means: The one who distinguishes between right and wrong. I don't why you go to another language to understand a word.

[@inquisitivemind007]

To quote Jeffery Arthur in The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an (p. 227, Brill 2007): "Linguistically, there is a closer equivalence in the Aram[aic]. פרקז, פזרקז deliverence or redemption , and Geiger, 56 ff., suggested this as the source of the Arabic word [فرقاب]. He would see the primary meaning in viii, 29 - "He will grant you redemption and forgive your evil deeds," where the Targumic פזרקנא would fit exactly (cf. Ps. iii, 9, etc). Nowhere, however, is פזרקנא used of revelation, and Geiger is forced to explain فرقاب in the other passages by assuming that Muhammad looked upon revelation as a means of deliverance from error." Both فروق and فرقاب share the same Syro-Aramaic root, فرق, and likewise share multiple senses. It is therefore reasonable to associate the sense, redeemer, with the Arab name, فروق.

[@algerianchaouki5705]

@@inquisitivemind007 The word فرق / Frq is an Arabic root word that means to separate, in the Arabic language most words are just derivations of a primal three lettered word. Farooq /فاروق is a derivation which means "he who seperates" (between good and bad, that is a strong moral compass). To give another example, the word haloob/حلوب : "that which gives milk" is a derivation of hlb/حلب which means to milk; so it is a very common type of derivation, the word فرقاب you provided doesn't fit here as it doesn't have a root in فرق. Saying it has another meaning because in another language it has another meaning or that it originated from that different language is weird, because one, no one ever used the word/ title with the Aramaic meaning and two, sounding similar and belonging to the same linguistic family does not mean they have the same meaning or even origin, in linguistics and translation studies they call it Fake Friends, like the word gift means two different things in English and German (present-poison) even though both languages are Germanic, same with the word pain in French which means bread although English borrowed quite a lot of words from French. This theory/claim is just weird and fringe, I wonder if Jeffrey Arthur was just influenced by his Protestant faith, no one takes his claims seriously except Christian missionaries.

[@rajvirdee1317]

Its the writting that made the difference.

[@evangelicalsnever-lie9792]

Nice 👍

[@peterbrown3004]

No, the Messiah was Ibn Tumart, hailing from the snow cast Atlas mountains of Morocco, founder of the glorious AlMohad dynasty.

[@marcusboys]

No need to watch yours just to knowing this matter, but reading more is a must. But hey, do you read? GoT series 🤣

[@stevenv6463]

A great interview but I feel that calling a mosque only a building for prayer is too literalist. The Quran calls the Kaabah a mosque and linguistically, it is any place or time where one prays. A verse has God tell Adam and Eve to wear beautiful clothes at every masjid (mosque but literally every place and time of prayer). Even if they were making tawaf (circumabulation) in the dome of the rock, that doesn't make it not a mosque as people pray by the kaabah where they make tawaf. (Not to mention, there are texts, at least hadith for sure, that call cats and children tawafin because they are allowed generally to roam around a house. In fact, it might show even more that there is a connection with having a specific qiblah and a place of tawaf and prayer. Though I don't know how the verse about God ensuring churches, mosques, monasteries, and synagogues aren't destroyed should be interpreted in this light.

[@mustafamajid7794]

Why couldn’t you walk into the mosque? There should be no restrictions

[@preapple]

The Dome marks the holy of holies. It is the attempt of an alliance of apocalyptic exiled Jews, and Christian pagans to rebuild the third temple, eventually copted by Muslims.

[@joecurran2811]

Why do scholars never take into account the distance from Mecca to Jerusalem? Are they not aware of what a huge gap this is?

[@inquisitivemind007]

The Holy Land is mentioned in the Quran 5:21

[@OmarOsman98]

@@inquisitivemind007 Holy Land is never defined

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@@OmarOsman98it's from the Euphrates till the Nile River

[@OmarOsman98]

@@inquisitivemind007 Not in the Quran

[@inquisitivemind007]

@OmarOsman98 The Prophet (ﷺ) added: I was raised to the Lote Tree and saw four rivers, two of which were coming out and two going in. Those which were coming out were the Nile and the Euphrates, and those which were going in were two rivers in paradise. Then I was given three bowls, one containing milk, and another containing honey, and a third containing wine. I took the bowl containing milk and drank it. It was said to me, "You and your followers will be on the right path (of Islam)." Sahih Bukhari

[@orangemanbad]

Or did Umar build the prophesied “abomination of desolation” that would sit in place of the temple. It was prophesied in Daniel and Jesus stated it multiple times.

[@orangemanbad]

@@Halal__Hitler that’s one view. It was there for how long? How long has the mosque been there?

[@xhorxheetxeberria-td1hu]

@Orange Man Bad It's not a Mosque. It's a shrine.

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@Xhorxhe Etxeberria Bayt al-Maqdis comes from Beit ha-Mikdash which is the Jewish ✡️ Temple. Muslim Apologists lie when they say it means Jerusalem. We know what early Muslims called Jerusalem, which was Aelia, as it's written on the back of some coins that says Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

[@xhorxheetxeberria-td1hu]

@@inquisitivemind007 Aelia Capitalina

[@omarhadi5713]

Who will ascend the mountain of the Lord? Who may stand in His holy place? The one who has clean hands and a pure heart Who does not trust in an idol Or swear by a false god They will receive blessing From the Lord And vindication From God their Savior He Saidina Omar Al Khattab

[@tlazghab5742]

I've read the pages displayed at 47:33, it doesn't say anything about Umar in fact it mentions the name of Daniel. Unless Daniel is Umar I don't see the point of showing some Arabic script that is not related to the subject being discussed as some sort of "evidence" ! By the way it doesn't say what the host says it says.

[@inquisitivemind007]

The point of that manuscript was to show more evidence that the Jewish Temple was rebuilt (it mentions in Arabic "haykal" which means temple) - not that it has Umar's name on it which neither the interviewer or the guest claimed.

[@tlazghab5742]

@@inquisitivemind007 ok I've read the whole two pages there is not a single instance of the word 'haykal' i.e. temple. In fact it mentions some patriarch named Benjamin, Heracles, Persians, Kaaba, Mohamed but no temple. So my previous point still stands, what do these two pages have to do with the point you're trying to make?

[@inquisitivemind007]

@t lazghab 47:33 is the timestamp you posted. Are you sure you are looking at the right Arabic manuscript called the Apocalypse of Shenute? It's on the left hand page, 9 lines down from the top, reading from right to left it's the last word. The other Arabic manuscript at 1:07:32 is from the History of the Patriachs of Alexandria - Benjamin 717AD which says "...and after a few days, there arose a man among the Arabs, from the southern regions, from Mecca and its vicinity, named Muhammad. And he restored the worshippers of idols to knowledge of the one God, so that they said that Muhammad is his messenger. And his nation was circumcised in the flesh, not in the law, and they prayed toward the east, orienting themselves toward a place they call the Ka‘ba. And he ruled Damascus and Syria 🇸🇾 and *crossed the Jordan 🇯🇴 and damned it up* and the Lord abandoned the army of the Romans before him, because of their corrupt faith and the excommunication that was brought against them and because of the Council of Chalcedon by the ancient fathers..." The reason why this was shown was to add to the 5 manuscripts shown in the Stephen Shoemaker interview proving [and it's mutawatir] that Muhammad lead a military operation to capture the Holy Land Q5:21 once the news of the recapture of Jerusalem by the Romans reached him and the Jews in Medina. After all if the news of the war (Battle of Antioch) can reach Muhammad in Q30:2 then the news of the fall of Jerusalem, which is bigger, would have reaached him too.

[@tlazghab5742]

@@inquisitivemind007 I am reading the script that's showing at that time stamp

[@krisc3371]

Another interesting and overlooked topic in the Chronicle of Theophanes is that it states; Abd Al-Malik, having overpowered the rebels, killed ibn al-Zubayr in Medina which was his stronghold apparently at the time. This short account misses out the later tradition of te bitter siege of Mecca, including the near destruction of the Kaaba, something that would have been impossible if the town had had the attachment to Islam that it came to have in later centuries.

[@inquisitivemind007]

That's a good observation

[@thepennydreadful95]

It uses the Greek ethribos which means the desert of yathrib, this is often used in Byzantine Greek sources as the lands south of Palestine. You could claim it's Medina but a scholar would pick you up on that one.

[@krisc3371]

@@thepennydreadful95 Mecca, as the birthplace for Islam, is a myth ~ Ignác Goldziher

[@krisc3371]

@@thepennydreadful95 You got my point🤫

[@thepennydreadful95]

@@krisc3371 not sure I addressed your point really. The point seems to be theophanes would not of left out of the account the near destruction of the Kaaba, which you consider impossible, I don't consider that impossible, the chronicle is not really concerned with the Arabs too much, it gives a few lines of events the author knows about here and there. He is not concerned with writing an account of ibn Zubair and his rebellion. 🤗

[@AndrewMartinNZ.]

There was no temple on the mount before the Muslims. The walls are Roman walls of a Roman fortress. It has nothing to do with a supposed temple.

[@Stardust475]

Is that why dome of rock is called ' bayt al maqdis' copying " the Beit HaMikdash"?

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@Serendipity Exactly! And Muslim Apologists calling Jerusalem Bayt-al-Maqdis is a joke! Does the White House mean Washington D.C or Buckingham Palace mean London?

[@Stardust475]

@@inquisitivemind007 Great analogy, they're engaging in the worst kind of appropriation.

[@inquisitivemind007]

@Serendipity it doesn't surprise me that Islamic history has been caught out. If the King of Saudi Arabia 🇸🇦 today visited Jerusalem, then not only will it be recorded in Saudi 🇸🇦 newspapers but in Israeli 🇮🇱 newspapers too. The thought of this visit being recorded in just Saudi 🇸🇦 newspapers and not a trace in Israeli 🇮🇱 is unthinkable. Likewise Umar's visit to Jerusalem would definitely be recorded in both Muslim and non-Muslim sources and when we look at the Christian and the Jewish accounts we can see what really happened.

[@ArshadAnsari37]

Farooq is a title in arabic. It means segregator of right from wrong, not exactly redeemer, based on what redeemer has come to mean. I can't say much about epistemology.

[@BenM61]

The word is Arabic and has nothing to with Syriac.

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@@BenM61 no the word is Syriac and entered into Arabic.

[@Ayusisi]

I agree with you. Farooq mean separate/set apart. Example of a usage of the word farooq in Alquran is in Al Baqarah verse 50 "Wa idz farooqna bikumul bahr (and remember/when we set apart/separate the sea for you)''. If farooq means redeem, then how one could explain Al-Baqarah verse 50 "and remember when we redeem the sea???" that does not sound right🤭🤭

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@Ayusisi words are not defined by the laws of nature - humans decide what a word means. Sure with time ⏲️ new meanings can be added to a word but to find what the original word means one has to go back in time ⏲️

[@AndrewMartinNZ.]

@@inquisitivemind007 The word is not Syriac. It’s an Arabic word with an Arabic root.

[@01faisall]

Messiah is isa pbuh the new Greek name Jesus umar AS is one of the most important person in Islam history, who created child benefit, pension funds and more charities to support equality for all people

[@elimelek5569]

It's Mashich in Original Hebrew not Messiah , YeSHUA not fake isa and according to quran isa is Lord along with allah 9:31 🧐🧐🧐🧐🧐

[@priestdamon]

@@elimelek5569 ''They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none but One God. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him. Glorified is He above what they associate ˹with Him˺!'' Surah At-Tawbah 9:31 what were you smoking when you quoted this verse? I was excited aswell .. yikes.

[@martinekanji8537]

@@priestdamon and who is Allah, is he the idol god housed in the temple of dushara who had three daughters, al-uzah almanat, illat.?

[@Omar-ff7kd]

@@martinekanji8537 lmao

[@nosmokejazwinski6297]

@@martinekanji8537No, Allah is the Arabic word which means “The God”

[@fadiljelin7297]

The host’s whole interviewer’s style is awful.He almost keeps putting words into Hoyland’s mouth. You have to listen very carefully to actually understand that Hoyland is not really claiming with a strong conviction what the host is insinuating (the whole interview style is awful) - he insinuates something and then he keeps thanking him and keeps asking him the same thing like he is trying to get him to agree to his point of view. The host talks too much with an agenda. I find that dishonest. I know he is trying to gain patrons and subscribers. But don’t be so relentless. Like Dr. Sean Anthony says - The problem with revisionism is that it creates more questions than it answers. Not that islamic traditional accounts shouldn’t be taken with a grain of salt. And Hoyland is honest, he is just raising questions but is not necessarily committed to any viewpoint. When he does NOT find much proof for something he says so. I think he learned well from late teacher’s mistakes (Patricia Crone ‘s mistakes in her early career). But I think this leaves him vulnerable to misuse by people who have religious polemical and political agendas like in this case, where people partially quote him, and turn his questions into definitive claims. He is really just raising questions and NOT making definitive claims,

[@inquisitivemind007]

If you want to see an awful interviewer then go and see that boring individual called Paul Williams from Blogging Theology. With Derek, you have to remember that it's been only a year since he has started looking into Islam compared to Christianity which he has been doing for years. It's understandable he is going to have some questions prepared beforehand. Derek has no agenda as he does the same with Christanity aswell so you can't get anyone more fairer than him.

[@fadiljelin7297]

I agree Derek is same with Christians but he is biased, he still has an agenda (mission like he said). He is sort of an atheist proselytizer. He is not neutral and it shows. I wish he would stop pushing his views and let the guests just speak, yes challenge them with arguments, and then letaudience make up their mind. He is trying too hard to debunk everything with oversimplifying explanations. Let the audience draw their conclusions.

[@greyralph1637]

@@inquisitivemind007 of course you'd be Against Paul.

[@inquisitivemind007]

@Grey Ralph I'm not a Christian so it doesn't bother me what holes you find in Christianity.

[@fadiljelin7297]

Paul- who?

[@michaelhughes7458]

The tribe Umar and Mohammed belonged to were not based in Mecca or Medina that trip was up north 800 miles from Mecca

[@RedWolf75]

They were Tayyaye

[@michaelhughes7458]

@@RedWolf75 yes they were 800 miles north of Mecca

[@manofwar2354]

They were from quraysh u d8mb and quraysh ruled mecca

[@RedWolf75]

@@manofwar2354 No evidence for the existence of the Qurayash. The early documents call them Tayyaye

[@michaelhughes7458]

@@manofwar2354 impossible as Mecca was never known till the 8th century as there no archaeology until the eighth century and there are no writings of Mecca from anywhere until the late eighth century so prof me wrong on archaeology writings of that period proving Mecca was known by anyone.

[@dgetzin]

Buraq Obama needs to see this!

[@baran1170]

👋

[@a.a.3503]

11:20 In my village almost every body rides on donkeys. I think they are all holy :D

[@inquisitivemind007]

There is a difference between riding on a donkey and seeing yourself as just a passenger 🫏 and riding on the Messiah's donkey 🫏 and seeing yourself as the Redeemer.

[@ariefburhanuddin1170]

For Omar, Jewish and christian is the people of the Book, Or the people was once in the right path of the Oneness God, but not for the time being Omar was there, that's why Omar came to jerussalem to restore The holly place of Oneness God to Its original usage under the truelly Oneness God which is Islam, and he took the temple of Solomon to Its original place for worshiping Oneness God and purify it from worshiping messenger like Iesu(s) or misleading Jewish from Its original teaching of Prophet in the past, we moslem believe in all prophet. They all teach the same thing, but stupid and greedy people start to misleading people for their own ego/ political/economic interest.

[@adamankind1onearthg]

obviousely the 2nd holy city fir muslim and the direction of 1 st prayer to israel b4 kabaa

[@jamesstaplesv]

Sabatai Levi

[@anudeep6884]

Remove music

[@sazzadkhan5263]

Fārūq literally means "the one who distinguishes between right and wrong."

[@johnmichaelson9173]

Similar to a Judge?

[@inquisitivemind007]

Go and look in Arthur Jeffery's Vocabulary of the Quran as to what Faruq means. Search for the word Furqan.

[@MohamedMohamed-ws7mq]

@@inquisitivemind007 my friend so European knows what Arabic word means more than the Arabs themselves

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@MohamedMohamed-ws7mq To quote Jeffery Arthur in The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an (p. 227, Brill 2007): "Linguistically, there is a closer equivalence in the Aram[aic]. פרקז, פזרקז deliverence or redemption , and Geiger, 56 ff., suggested this as the source of the Arabic word [فرقاب]. He would see the primary meaning in viii, 29 - "He will grant you redemption and forgive your evil deeds," where the Targumic פזרקנא would fit exactly (cf. Ps. iii, 9, etc). Nowhere, however, is פזרקנא used of revelation, and Geiger is forced to explain فرقاب in the other passages by assuming that Muhammad looked upon revelation as a means of deliverance from error." Both فروق and فرقاب share the same Syro-Aramaic root, فرق, and likewise share multiple senses. It is therefore reasonable to associate the sense, redeemer, with the Arab name, فروق.

[@MohamedMohamed-ws7mq]

@@inquisitivemind007 that is such a big stretch and I find it arrogant to assume that every Arabic word has an Aramaic root they are two different languages. Anyone who knows Arabic can easily tell you that al faruq means the discriminator

[@buzzbarbhuiyan5945]

Forget about talking and deconstructing narratives on both sides which one may seek to look forward to for clarification from scholarly work. But again these are historical events so it has a historical bearing to it. So even if you are looking at the whole episode from a historical perspective there are chains of historical figures and events which dates back much earlier and there are clear chain and scholarly work on both sides. When one doesnt know about the past and ancient history of the place I would suggest they do their homework well before jumping into a discussion with a scholar to dissect history with biased and half baked ideas. This guy doesn't even have clue about the past and ancient history of Arabia. Like who were the settlers thousands of years before Nabateans what did they worship what connection or influence they had how they were different to the contemporary beliefs during that period what connections they had with Egypt, What is the connection of Israelites with Arab and influence of various beliefs during that period , what influence did the Babylonian, Akkadian, Zorastaranian dieties, Egyptian pagan Osiris had on them and on different Jewish sects ( earlier and later) what led to fabricated holy scripture, what role did the pagan, non jew Roman philosopher of egypt had in letting Jews tweak their original Gods message in their scriptures which Joseph pbuh and Moses pbuh preached ,who was Philo what influence did the ancient pagan Greek philosophers had on him what role did the Egyptian Jewish philosopher Philo played with his pagan leanings in distorting Jesus pbuh message and getting the Paulines Christology take into effect later on around 367BC unanimously with the aid of greek and roman philosophers- theologian like Ireneaus, Justin to condition spin doctors & opportunist like Esubeus later to convince Constantine, to pass on the Nicene Creed, which is Pauline bible and Paul's christology. Why was it necessary ? Was that more for dominance and kingship or for faith, if it was for faith then how, many unethical & violent verse were included and fabricated in Bible which Jesus pbuh didn't preach? Once you have a clear picture of all of that, then start probing into the pre Islamic & Islamic Arabia and their figure heads. Unfortunately our Christian brethren have been indoctrinated ever since the Nicenean accord was imposed. That race with Greco roman pagan roots, white washed as gentile, was a make belief and even to this day, is the only way of inclusivity to refer non jews and have their deviant ways accommodated & established . Jews have more to do with Arabs than to pagan proto Greco-Romans ancient beliefs. The idea of Zionist cult as collective group took its birth (has nothing to do with Jesus pbuh preaching, Jews or gentiles belonging to Israel or semitism) It all started way back when Paul's Christology was rolled out and tweaked later with various versions over the centuries as a source to weaponise and othering. No one can even tell with certainty what Paul told and preached and was that written as such in Paul's Bible verbatim what Paul preached, or Paul completely corrupted it intentionally to fit his scheme of things. So truth has been violated long back that's the single point from where dispersion took its effect. It was destined to lead people into the dark period till the same message of Jesus pbuh was brought to people by Quran and Prophet Muhammad pbuh Umar RA was the 2nd caliph of Islam and not a prophet( that is a different paradigm altogether). He was also an expert Muslim jurist known for his pious and just nature, which earned him the epithet Al-Farooq (the one who distinguishes (between right and wrong) Bayt Al Maqqadas ( Dome of Rock) is a shrine and NOT a mosque. Al-Aqsa is a Mosque which is a seperate entity within the premises in the same court yard where the shrine is. Now the shrine Bayth Al Maqqadas is important and Holy in Islam because, it has a reference to prophet Mohammad's pbuh ascension to heaven, noted in chapter 53 of the Quran, Surah al-Najm (the star). And the related explanation in hadiths tells prophet's ascent through the seven heavens, and his encounters with previous prophets, including Jesus pbuh and Moses pbuh Umar RA redeeming Dome of Rock in Jerusalem is an event much later after the revelation of Quran and ascension & back of prophet Muhammad pbuh. The winds of despair blow harder because of our lack of knowledge of God. explore-islam.com/muslim-copts-before-muhammad/ kzbin.info/www/bejne/baCnkomZh82Ansk

[@inquisitivemind007]

"This guy doesn't even have clue about the past and ancient history of Arabia. Like who were the settlers thousands of years before Nabateans what did they worship what connection or influence...." For your information Robert G Hoyland has written a book on what you just talked about called "Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam"

[@buzzbarbhuiyan5945]

@@inquisitivemind007 I am refering to the host //as this guy//. Robert Hoyland must be selectively silent or he has approached his scholarly work from different perspective or isn't interested in relating all the new evidences and research & scholarly work that has been produced recently . It appears he is just feeding the empty head of this host, who is more interested in reacting and playing to the gallery who seems to be having an agenda behind. I welcome everyone to understand the arabic word "Fitra" if you are inquisitive. Just to let unknown be known all of us without any spec of doubt, believers, non believers, atheist, agnoistic , gnostics etc have that in us. To know more how, why for what, do your research on it, read books, ask experts/ scholars if at all you are interested. I would not prefer to say any further on that. Thank you and peace.

[@mukatacaptain3891]

This long passage begins with sense but loses the sense along the way. There has never lived a man named Muhammad the way Islam depicts. And since Muhammad is false EVERYTHING is false

[@bardhbardhi]

​@@mukatacaptain3891 Lack of Proof isnt proof against

[@buzzbarbhuiyan5945]

@@mukatacaptain3891 Good luck with your typical invincible ignorance fallacy or ad lapidem fallacy. Read.... Iqra bismi rabbika Allazi khalaq.

[@therighteousrighthand]

Throughout history there were many Messiahs.. some saved their people from annihilation, some saved their people from being taken as slaves, some fought for freedom.... three cheers to all of them.... However I think when we hear the word Messiah, one name that stands out is Yeshua HaMoshiach. The promised deliverer who would save His people from sin and give them eternal life.

[@truthdoesntcomeeasy743]

Did Moses give people eternal de-at-h? Was Moses the way to S-A-T-A-N? Every Prophet of God was the way to God and gave eternal life (the message agsiant sin)

[@therighteousrighthand]

@@truthdoesntcomeeasy743You dont need a prophet to lead people to God. Any man or woman who obeys God and encourages others do the same leads them to God and gives eternal life. Moses is one them. But none of them were called Messiahs.

[@truthdoesntcomeeasy743]

@@therighteousrighthand Pagan king was called Messiah. Pots and pans an lamp posts were called Messiah so NO big deal if Jesus is called Messiah. And BTW, it's quite interesting how you evaded answering the point I made as I asked the questions.

[@truthdoesntcomeeasy743]

@@therighteousrighthand Knowledge which your Church and your pastors or whatever leading you didn't give you del-ibe-ra-tely. Bonus: "Messiah / "Christ" / "Anointed". Even the pa-g-an king is Messiah, pillar is Messiah, horn is Messiah, cherub is Messiah, priest is Messiah. Yes. In your Bible. MESSIAH / CHRIST / ANOINTED: NOT A NAME The word CHRIST is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic - Masih. Root word m-a-s-a-h-a, meaning to rub, to massage, to anoint. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated, Grecian form "CHRIST", it seems unique: befitting Jesus only. What the Westerner wants do is to translate names into his own language like "cephas" to Peter 1 , "messiah" to Christ. How ? Very easily. MESSIAH in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is "christos". Just lop off the 'os from christos and you are left with Christ. Christos means ANOINTED, and anointed means APPOINTED in its religious connotation. Jesus (pbuh) was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger. Every prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the appointed ones. In the original Hebrew - made a "messiah". Let us keep to the English translation - "anointed." Not only were prophets and priests and even heathen kings anointed (christos-ed), but horns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also. I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar ... Genesis 31:13 If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin ... Leviticus 4:3 And Moses. ..ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein... Leviticus 8:10 ...the Lord shall. ..exalt the horn of his ANOINTED. 1 Samuel 2:10 Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus... (Cyrus was a heathen, a pagan King. Even he is Christ) Isaiah 45:1 Thou art the ANOINTED cherub... Ezekiel 28:14 a hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Every time you come across the word ANOINTED in your English Bible, you can take it that that word would be Christos in the Greek translations, and if you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians translators have done, you will have - Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ Pillar, etc.

[@truthdoesntcomeeasy743]

@@therighteousrighthand "Any man or woman who obeys God...... Moses is one of them." So Moses isn't that special. Right? God's emissary on earth, His Prophet is just like any other Tom, Bo-bb-y and H-a-r-r-y going around obeying God. Right? I mean Jesus instructed his disciples to follow the preaching of those who taught what Moses taught. That in actuality, if I can give an analogy, means that the students of Moses are the teachers of the disciples of Jesus BUT you're trying very hard to lower the status of Moses BECAUSE it doesn't suit your faith. It's an amazing situation really that the Bible backfires on your faith to GUIDE you to the straight path.

[@KennyBare]

I couldn't hear a word he said. Too muffled.

[@muhammadfasihkhan8508]

Interesting topic but I was unable to find anything comprehensive. None of the primary sources are considered and the host tries to conjecture and reach for possibilities based upon distant non-Muslim sources. Even going as far as citing 10th and 14th century sources. Being a contrarian just to be a contrarian.

[@kaloarepo288]

That painting in the Vatican's Sistine chapel - done by Perugino with the help of Pinturicchio -with the domed building in the background looks more like a typical Renaissance Italian domed building than the dome of the Rock -it's very similar to Brunelleschi's dome of the Florence cathedral.

[@inquisitivemind007]

If you look at Pamela Berger's book 📖 "The Crescent 🌙 on the Temple" she says it's the Dome of the Rock.

[@kaloarepo288]

@@inquisitivemind007 If I remember correctly the domed Islamic mosque design comes straight from Christian Byzantine churches -these usually have a square/cube base surmounted by a dome -the cube represents the temporal/material world with its four dimensions and directions and as it rises it is transformed into the dome which represents circular never ending infinity.Goes back to the great Hagia Sophia in Istanbul and ultimately to the Pantheon in Rome.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

The Dome of the Rock that Perugino drew was renovated in 1546. The current enclosure wall actually came from an 18th century renovation. If you look at the Templars' Templum Domini imagery, Perugino's general depiction is accurate enough on the general details except for the dome shape itself. The original dome shape was not like a Bruneleschi style dome, but that was probably the style Perugino thought it had because he assumed the walls continued all the way up to the dome. It was replaced in 1817 with a style that was more rounded and had more ribs, as photographed in 1842, and the gold dome was added much later, in 1962.

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@andrewsuryali8540 excellent point

[@kaloarepo288]

@@andrewsuryali8540 Truth is medieval and renaissance artists had no idea what ancient buildings looked like and usually depicted them in terms of what they knew or produced wild fantasies of their imagination - like Breughel's (I think) painting of the tower of Babel - it would have looked like an Iraqi ziggurat but the artist makes it look like a fantastical tower of Pisa on steroids!

[@moosa86]

Cyrus the Great is called “Messiah” in the Bible (Isaiah 45:1) not because he was in power when the 2nd Temple was built but because he declared that it would be rebuilt and facilitated it through actions in his life. Likewise, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is more aptly considered a “Messiah” that was foretold in the Bible because his actions and works led to Jews being allowed to return to Jerusalem. Considering Umar “the Messiah” is silly and akin to considering Darius the Great (not Cyrus) the Messiah because he physically commissioned the builders to start construction.

[@moosa86]

@inquisitivemind007 “Messiah” simply means anointed. Jesus Christ was a Messiah as was Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Both men were foretold to arrive during the “Messianic Era” and have the most amount of literature written about them and have been the most influential people of the past 2 millennia. The Islamic covenant allows for camel meat to be consumed (unlike the Mosaic covenant). As for the Kaaba 🕋 it is the first house of worship built to facilitate the worship of the God of Abraham as it preceded the tabernacle, Solomon’s Temple (in Jerusalem), and the Second Temple that Christ taught in. The Kaaba 🕋 is where Moses and Jethro made pilgrimage to and where Moses learned about the God of his ancestors when he lived as a shepherd in Midian (Arabia). It is the structure that the “bayit” of the phylacteries (“tefilin”) were meant to represent. Scene from 1956 Ten Commandments film: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKTGXmh9fbd6aZo

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@Mehdi MusaManesh I have no problem in seeing Muhammad as a prophet for the Arab gentiles only (not Arab Jews). The problem is you say he was sent to mankind and if a Jews hears of Muhammad then he is to abandon the Torah, which is now null and void, and follow Muhammad and the Quran. I'm saying that the Jews will never accept Muhammad as a Prophet for mankind because he eats non-Kosher camel 🐫 meat 🍖 and has changed the qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca which is unacceptable for a Jew ✡️

[@moosa86]

@inquisitivemind007 Thing is many have converted from the Mosaic covenant to the Islamic covenant. They’re both from the same God. Isaiah 42 beautifully describes Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) along with other passages in the Old and New Testaments. A Jew wishing to abide by the Mosaic covenant will miss the fact that Jesus Christ was also a prophet of their God and sent with another covenant. Muslims recognize this fact and await for his return (similar to Christians). Some Jews don’t want to recognize either Jesus Christ or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and instead choose to believe that God hasn’t sent humanity a prophet since the times of the early Second Temple period. They’re missing out by doing this though as both Christ and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) affirmed what’s written in their scriptures along with giving context and perspective to the meaning behind the formalities in the Mosaic covenant.

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@moosa86 the only reason why any Jew, during the time of Muhammad, converted to Islam and saw him as the Messiah, as reported in Theopanes 818AD, was so that he would lead them to recapture the Holy Land Q5:21 from the Romans. When the news that Jerusalem had fallen to the Persian and Jews in 614AD reached Medina, the Jews believed that their dream had come true of regaining the Holy Land and some may have even migrated there. When the news that Jerusalem was recaptured back by the Romans reached the Jews in Medina, they were devastated and were hoping that Muhammad being a leader of the Arabs, who are cousins of the Jews, would lead a military campain to recapture the Holy Land for them which he attemped as shown in the Stephen Shoemaker interview. When he failed and in the end it was Umar who recaptured it and appointed a Jewish governor as reported in Sebeos "...Because their prince was from among the Jews...." Muhammad was seen as just a prophet sent to the Arabs only and not for them (i.e. the Jews)

[@moosa86]

@inquisitivemind007 When did Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) “fail to recapture the Holy Land?” He died before he could battle his way up to Jerusalem. Similar to Moses he died before entering that land but the people he led succeeded in capturing it. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the “prophet like Moses” that is being referring to in the following New Testament passage and the man that the learned rabbis anticipated… *John 1:19-25* (Lexham English Bible) [19] And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent[a] priests and Levites from Jerusalem so that they could ask him, “Who are you?” [20] And he confessed-and he did not deny, and confessed-“I am not *THE CHRIST!”* [21] And they asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not!” “Are you *THE PROPHET?”* [b] And he answered, “No!” [22] Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we can give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” [23] He said, “I am ‘the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, “Make straight the way of the Lord,”’[c] just as Isaiah the prophet said.” [24] (And they had been sent from the Pharisees.) [25] And they asked him and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not *THE CHRIST,* nor Elijah, nor *THE PROPHET?”* *notes:* [a] Some manuscripts have “sent to him” [b] *A reference to the “Prophet like Moses” of Deut **18:15** (see Acts 3:22)* [c] A quotation from Isa 40:3 ------- 🔎🔎🔎🔍🔍🔍🔎🔎🔎🔍🔍🔍 Please note that the temple priests (John 1) understood “THE PROPHET” (fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:18) to be a separate individual from “THE CHRIST” 🧐

[@geemup557]

If I need my car fixed I take it to the mechanic not the dry cleaner's, If I'm sick I got to a Doctor not to a Lawyer. If I want to learn about Islam I go to a Muslim Scholar not a Non-Muslim. Seriously this is why most of the things people like this say is wrong, as much as they have studied it was limited, they did not study the whole Quran, starting with a complete understanding of the Arabic language... And they certainly did not study all the Hadith books. Im not a scholar and I found so many holes in this.

[@inquisitivemind007]

Following your train of thought: next time you want to learn about Christianity, go to Christians only and not Bart Ehrmen or Muslims.

[@sunset2.00]

Imagine ,this lecture were given by David wood

[@sunset2.00]

@@inquisitivemind007 lampart did not made any strong claims ,just opened up questions. He stayed away from Islam but focused on umar RA. I don't know how you conclude islam is beaten ,more Islam is further substantiated

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@@sunset2.00 because if you read what happened in Muslims sources and then compare that to the James-Howard Johnston, Stephen Shoemaker and this interview it's clear someone is lying -- they both can't be right and it's pretty clear to me that classical Muslim historians are the liars.

[@sunset2.00]

@@inquisitivemind007 You have to give an alternative theory of what happened rather than just cast doubt on some of the uncertain aspects of the muslim native because there bound to be some due to time . You have to show your theory of what happened has more backing as per evidence for me to consider adopting it . Right now it is rational for me adopt the muslim narrative of what happened. Because only casting doubt is a race to the bottom and not productive at all like casting doubt on atheist morality rather than saying moral nihilism is a more rational position to take . I don't have the time or capability to judge every doubt to verify but I can judge the soundness of the overall theory of history or moral system withe supported evidence. That is why you should think this way too.Give a theory of what happened and give evidences for the overall situation and give arguments why it is more rational position to take.

[@ericferguson9989]

That would be comical. I don't think anyone would consider him to be a serious scholar.

[@Mika-El-]

Haile Selassie

[@patricianoel7782]

Ras Tafarianism connection is interesting to connect Ethiopia to Jamaica.

[@Mika-El-]

@@patricianoel7782 Yes, and the Rastafari movement borrows from the Vedic and hindu tradition also. Peculiar blend.

[@justapointofview7625]

@@Mika-El- But they are NOT caste minded like Hindus do following the Rg Veda, where castes are defined by birth (there are many similar names for caste: jathi, gothra, varna etc, not coined by British colonists or Christian missionaries)

[@Mika-El-]

@@justapointofview7625 Yes, thank you for info.

[@shanfsa5368]

Umar , Allah pleased with him, was sort of Messaih for the Jews... Coz when Umar gained Jerusalem without bloodshed, he allowed the Jews to return to the holy land.. Christians/Romans had banned Jews from entering the Holy Land for over 550 years... But it was Umar who allowed them to visit the Holy Land and visit the places of their worship... But it was put in the treaty by the Romans/Christians that so ok! They can visit the Holy Land but they cannot settle down in the Holy Land.. So, yes, Umar, Allaah pleased with him, was a kind of messaih for the Jews... Messaih in the means that he brought an end to their total exile from the land

[@inquisitivemind007]

You forgot to mention he allowed the Jewish ✡️ Temple to be rebuilt

[@ronisetiawan2414]

FACTOS

[@omarlittle-hales8237]

Shalom, Salam, Peace. Algebra Of God: No Needs Or No Desires. Thus No Slumber Or Fatigue. Thus No Family Or Partners. Algebra Of Creation: Has Needs And Has Desires. Needs Slumber And Is Affected By Fatigue. Has A Family Connection And Has Partners. Thus Jesus Son Of Mary, Was The Devout Messiah, Servant Of God.

[@eliesakroudi5783]

unfortunately the quality is bad

[@Flyingbird9665]

Muslim asked other faith to pay jeziah which is small amount of money in order to protect them and they can’t they font to have to pay it and even sometimes t’écuma font as them . Jeziah is kind of tax

[@inquisitivemind007]

Tax is when someone pays regardless of their religion. Jizya is a penalty for not accepting Islam - it's not the same.

[@supremercommonder]

No he was not but the prophet muhammed said if there was a prophet to come after me it would of been umar ra

[@inquisitivemind007]

I can see why looking at this interview

[@Bei-Abedan]

Hoyland is great but like all academics they can't get into the mind because they don't know anything about Noahite Judaism.

[@Bei-Abedan]

If you want to know what is going on I can tell you. I am appointed by the Sanhedrin to be a teacher for Non-Jews. The Nasi is my Sandak. So send me an email if you want to know what's going on and we can talk.

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

👏🙂 Wow very interesting

[@Darisiabgal7573]

This was good. Who owns the shrine?

[@aos5929]

Muslims which are Sunni Muslims, Sunni means orthodox believe only Allah knows the future and the unseen, this man is confused with the Shia they believe a lot of things

[@LabzAli]

It's Umar (RA) , kindly please Put Some Respect On His Name. Thank you He a companion of the Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessing of Allah be upon him ) and not a messenger not a messiah not anything that you're saying

[@DusTman761]

We dont talking abouth faith, we talking about historically evidence

[@inquisitivemind007]

From a Jewish point of a view the Messiah can be non-Jewish like in the case of the Persian king Cyrus who was the annointed one as mentioned in Isaiah 45:1 and captured the Holy Land from the Babylonians and rebuilt Solomon's Temple; for the Jews they were looking for a Cyrus the Great figure in Umar.

[@aos5929]

This clown kept saying the Armenian accounts, The Armenian wouldn’t know what happened in Jerusalem in 630s even if he did he wouldn’t mention Omer because Omer was such a great man who’s a Muslim

[@inquisitivemind007]

The Armenian got his information from escaped eye witness prisoners-of-war you clown 🤡

[@xhorxheetxeberria-td1hu]

Armenians have been in Jerusalem since the 300's.

[@aos5929]

@@inquisitivemind007 You tool , Armenia got conquered by early Muslims but it’s nowhere near Jerusalem

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@aos5929 p239-240 "...It is plain then that Sebeos is making use of a pre-existing written source in this first section of the final part of his history. A place of composition in Palestine, probably in Jerusalem, may be inferred from the focus of interest. It will therefore be designated the Palestine Source. Sebeos marks the transition to it from the Rshtuni Source with a brief editorial introduction..."

[@danielschaeffer1294]

Apocalyptic thinking isn’t peculiar to Abrahamic religions. The Vikings had Ragnarok, and the Hindus have Kali Yuga.

[@clearskybluewaters]

eh they are different. in Norse and Hindu "mythology" they are just end of a cycle where as in Abrahamic faith its a whole new shift to ultimate reality which goes on forever.

[@kaloarepo288]

I think it's in the Persian religion of Zoroaster as well - with the ultimate victory of the good principle (Ahura Mazda) over the evil forces.(Ahriman.)

[@dust001]

I think it's a common thing to believe in some sort of an "end of the world as we know it" in many Indo-European myths, this belief was adopted by the Jews from the Zoroastrians.

[@Halal_Dan]

​@@dust001 Zoroastrianism came after Abraham.

[@MrC-55]

Ragnorok was added because of Christianity

[@Flyingbird9665]

Nobody claim Umar as messiah . I don’t know how you get this info .

[@inquisitivemind007]

From a Jewish point of a view the Messiah can be non-Jewish like in the case of the Persian king Cyrus who was the annointed one as mentioned in Isaiah 45:1 and captured the Holy Land from the Babylonians and rebuilt the Solomon's Temple; for the Jews they were looking for a Cyrus the Great figure in Umar.

[@attila0073]

that info i got it from a rabbi

[@inquisitivemind007]

Yes but Bayt al-Maqdis doesn't mean the city of Jerusalem or the Temple Mount area. It means the Jewish Temple 🕍 as it comes from the Hebrew Beit HaMikdash

[@ammadqureshi5061]

First qibla was not jerusalem.....Actually it was just for sometime in medina

[@alijami7116]

He was everything.but his expert was running from war to the mountain😂😂😂

[@venenareligioest410]

“The Jews could not let pass unchallenged the way in which the Koran appropriated Biblical accounts and personages; for instance, its making Abraham an Arab and the founder of the Ka'bah at Mecca. The ‘prophet’, who looked upon every evident correction of his gospel as an attack upon his own reputation, brooked no contradiction, and unhesitatingly threw down the gauntlet to the Jews. Numerous passages in the Koran show how he gradually went from slight thrusts to malicious vituperations and brutal attacks on the customs and beliefs of the Jews. When they justified themselves by referring to the Bible, Muhammad, who had taken nothing therefrom at first hand, accused them of intentionally concealing its true meaning or of entirely misunderstanding it, and taunted them with being "asses who carry books" (sura lxii. 5). The increasing bitterness of this vituperation, which was similarly directed against the less numerous Christians of Medina, indicated that in time Muhammad would not hesitate to proceed to actual hostilities. The outbreak of the latter was deferred by the fact that the hatred of the ‘prophet’ was turned more forcibly in another direction, namely, against the people of Mecca, whose earlier refusal of Islam and whose attitude toward the community appeared to him at Medina as a personal insult which constituted a sufficient cause for war.” - Richard Gottheil, Mary W. Montgomery, Hubert Grimme, "Mohammed" (1906), Jewish Encyclopedia, Kopelman Foundation. And so it went on, Islam evolved into what it is today, fanatical, petty minded, violent, vindictive, plagiarists!

[@saw8544]

You really believe that? Can you bring me the exact verse where it says “asses who carry books”? All of this slander and accusations at the prophet peace be upon him are based on what? He’s only saying numerous passages, numerous christians and can’t bring passages from the Quran itself? Lastly, would this come from a violent religion? [Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Come! Let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden to you: do not associate others with Him ˹in worship˺. ˹Do not fail to˺ honour your parents. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for you and for them. Do not come near indecencies, openly or secretly. Do not take a ˹human˺ life-made sacred by Allah-except with ˹legal˺ right. This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will understand.] 6:151

[@greyralph1637]

@@saw8544 there is a verse saying jews refusing to let go off their traditions are like asses carrying books

[@anaskpalmalaki8804]

​@@saw8544Plagiarised??.. You look at the Christians first. How come they can plagiarised 100% the books of the Jews and incorporate , package it in the bible and labelled it as Old Testament. Prophet Muhammad did not bring new doctrine. It was similar to the teachings as taught by Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

[@magamaga6911]

Check out the Chinese information of Jiu Tang Shu, the Tashi section, there is information about early Arab military leaders, whose data is not available anywhere else, also contact the author of the red judaism channel, a very smart guy, he was underestimated by many, and this is one of Odon Lafontaine's mistakes,

[@gendiabdi7281]

The Cannibals of Mu'arra! What do non Muslims sources say about that?

[@truthoverfalsehood__8757]

Mohammed said if anyone was to become a Prophet after me it would be Omar , Omar was a great man by all standarts of messurment.

[@inquisitivemind007]

I agree with that

[@truthoverfalsehood__8757]

@@inquisitivemind007 If you believe Mohammed was a Prophet , and God alone is the only one worthy of worship. And you believe in the angels , and books , and prophets like Moses Abraham Isaac etc. , and believe in the last day and in Gods destiny . Then just repeat this and you are a Muslim: " There is noone worthy of worship except God and Mohammed is His Messenger " now you're a Muslim.

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@truthoverfalsehood__8757 There is none worthy of worship except God/Allah/Hashem etc. Muhammad is the messenger of God for the Arabs only and not mankind. The Quran is the book revealed to Muhammad and it doesn't nullify the Torah. Both books 📚 are valid today. Am I still Muslim?

[@truthoverfalsehood__8757]

@@inquisitivemind007 Everything you said is correct , the Torah is still valid and true it was not changed like 99% of the Muslims falsely believe now. However Mohammed was send to everybody , and the Torah is still valid and you should still be hebrew and not arabize yourself.

[@inquisitivemind007]

@@truthoverfalsehood__8757 That sent to everybody is a later doctrine that's been added and couldn't have been something Muhammad taught because firstly from the Jewish perspective he eats non-Kosher food (camel meat), secondly his qibla is towards Mecca: no Jew is going to downgrade Jerusalem to no 3 and have Mecca as their qibla. Would you accept the Mahdi to come if he changed the qibla to Istanbul?

[@safiul1930]

When you doubt any sahaba, you doubt the judgment of Prophet Mohammad(sa). Allah informed him who was munafiq. Any insult to sahaba, is insult to Prophet Mohammad(sa). Prophet (sa) said all my sahabas are like stars in the dark night. If anybody follow any sahaba, the will be successful.

[@tubba-dg7to]

@Saiful yes, Mohammed also said if a fly falls into your drink, you should push it all the way in. Do you follow that?

[@safiul1930]

@@tubba-dg7to if you doubt a prophet of God, you doubt God. A prophet don't say anything from themself. Allah clearly told to follow prophet Mohammad. Doubting on prophet Mohammad will cause your Faith invalid.

[@reconnaisance]

@@safiul1930 Muhammad was a pedophile, so he wasn't a prophet of God.

[@saw8544]

@@tubba-dg7to The prophet didnt make it an article of faith to dip the fly and throw in before drinking, he said that the wings of the fly has a disease and the other has the cure. If anyone didn’t want to do it, its fine. However, you should know that research was done on that subject, and promising results was gathered. For example, Professor Juan Alvarez Bravo at the University of Tokyo, said: “We will witness a rapid treatment for many diseases, which consists of extracts from flies” Moreover, some researchers from Auburn University found a protein in the fly’s saliva, which could accelerate the process of wound healing and chronic skin cracking. In addition, researchers at Stanford University have found a substance in the fly that could potentially improve the immune system of a human. So, would I do it? Yes, even if there wasn’t a scientific research behind it.

[@xiuhcoatl4830]

​@@safiul1930the Gods don't need of things such as prophets or so called holy books. Abrahamic religions are such a lie.

[@FatimaMaryam-tx1dy]

Hi Derek! Thank you for this conversation, it is indeed really interesting! However, I just wanted to point out how Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) himself felt about Umar. You seem to have been familiar with the Sunni-Shia narrative and one thing you might as well dig into in your podcast is that even Sunnis can't deny that Umar was so passionate about his Torah and his Jewish beliefs despite his "conversion" to Islam. In fact, there are many examples of how the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) rejected Umar when he came with his book and warned people against him. Shiites strongly insist that Umar pretended to convert to Islam, when in fact he was following the orders of his Jewish teachers. Kaab Akbar is the clearest example of a distorter of Islamic teachings. Also, he constantly praises Umar for being his best student (at a time when Kaab himself was still a Jew, and Umar supposedly converted to Islam). It seems a little strange to me that a Jewish teacher praises the "new Muslim" (Umar) for his knowledge of the Torah. It is highly possible that Umar was fulfilling his duties as a Jew and promoting his interests rather than representing Islam or fulfilling his covenant to Prophet (saw). There is too much evidence of Jewish customs to be brought into Islam by the mob of Umar, and I think it is worth looking at alternative narrative of looking at Umar as a Jew instead of a Muslim. Peace, thank you for your efforts!

[@inquisitivemind007]

That's interesting. Is there evidence in Shia literature of Jewish connections with Umar? If so what are they and their references?

[@safiul1930]

This is clear insult to prophet Mohammad(as). He knew who was mumin and who was munafiq. Be careful when you say something about sahaba(ra).

[@dr.alahdal]

Sister Fatima Maryam Umar ibn khattab radiallahu 'anhu is from Bani 'Adi one of the ten branches of Quraysh. Prophet Muhammad is from Banu Hashim another branch of Quraysh that are the lineage of ishmael the son of abraham PBUT all. Also father-in-law of the prophet and a senior companion. That the prophet ask Allah to convert one of the one oh is closest to Allah. Please Read Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3681 Book 49, Hadith 77 English translation : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 368 How can he be Jewish??? But Abdullah ibn Saba' was a Yemenite Jew from the Arab Himyar tribe he had exaggerated reverence for Ali radiallahu 'anhu his followers are (the Saba'iyya) that Shia tradition came from. Just to be clear I am a direct Descendant of Ali radiallahu 'anhu with both will document lineage and DNA proof so As a Syed (that is raised knowing that I'm no different than any other human) I know my family. I have seen the whole video that is all just theories with no clear facts just a made-up research from a translation of translation of a translation to prove a non-Muslim version of a well-known and documented Islamic figure Umar ibn khattab radiallahu 'anhu. But We just respect their opinions as we must do with all others but we base our beliefs on actual evidence historical and scientific.

[@inquisitivemind007]

@omar alahdal just theories with no clear facts? Such as what? And when you mentioned the research is a translation of a translation of a translation. Are you referring to the 4 Arabic manuscripts that were shown? I have never seen so many original manuscripts in one interview before - a pure treat for those who are interested in academia.

[@muhammadtayyab8874]

You lie and slander and then go as far as calling for one of the most influential people from the religion of Islam "worthy of being looked as a Jew?". Fear Allah and the last day. Ali (R.A) loved the people you slander against. He stood by them, he worked under them. May Allah Guide you as well as I.

[@SilencedDoesStuff]

You guys are wasting you and others time. Second Caliph pbuh was Caliph not massiah. Isa ( pbuh) is massiah and he will descend when Allah wants him to.

[@DusTman761]

Muhammad/The Praise One was messianic tittle for Umar

[@greyralph1637]

@@DusTman761 false, THERE is NO title in Arabic named Al Muhammad. It's a name.

[@DusTman761]

@@greyralph1637 word Muhammad in Arabic has a meaning, Praised One.

[@greyralph1637]

@@DusTman761 it's a noun, not an adjective. So it's not a title. Arabic grammar is fickle but each languge to it's Own i guess

[@inquisitivemind007]

From a Jewish point of a view the Messiah can be non-Jewish like in the case of the Persian king Cyrus who was the annointed one as mentioned in Isaiah 45:1 and captured the Holy Land from the Babylonians and rebuilt Solomon's Temple; for the Jews they were looking for a Cyrus the Great figure in Umar.

[@nmkzf]

Conquering is not a measurement of good Muslims ruling, else UK occupying majority of the world is a better Islamic achievements. Which is not. Indonesia adopting Islam is the way of Islam to be spread. The same Andalusia adopting Islam before its invasion by Umayyads.

[@bobbyokeefe4285]

I don't watch MV for months cause of all the virtue signalling and pandering,I decide to try and give it a chance,then 30 min in the video,"I'm not a big fan that Wah-man...",pfff,bye once more I guess.

[@joecurran2811]

See ya 👋

[@bobbyokeefe4285]

@@joecurran2811 Your mother.

[@mudslinger888]

Tin can audio is atrocious for my earbuds…

[@gusswaratah440]

The family of the prophet pbuh come from a woman fatima just like jesus comes from mary Ali has the same name meaning as joachim or heli he who God established deuteronomy 33 prophecies this establishment of the kingdom of God

[@safuwanfauzi5014]

Interesting Arabian and the Arabs book have old pagan Arab Gods and pre-modern Arabic script, called Old south Arabian script, Arabs have few script before Islam in Jordan, Yemen and Hijaz region, Nabatean Arab script become today modern arabic, used in Quran and today Arabic

[@ShakeOneOfficial]

We muslims believe Jesus Christ is the only messiah. 2nd Caliph Umar defeated the Persian and Roman empires simultaneously.

[@DusTman761]

We dont talking abouth faith, we talking about historically evidence

[@ShakeOneOfficial]

@DusTman hahahahahaha everything I typed is historically correct, what non muslims, white people wrote in books. Google search it

[@inquisitivemind007]

From a Jewish point of a view the Messiah can be non-Jewish like in the case of the Persian king Cyrus who was the annointed one as mentioned in Isaiah 45:1 and captured the Holy Land from the Babylonians and rebuilt Solomon's Temple; for the Jews they were looking for a Cyrus the Great figure in Umar.

[@mansour9790]

So the Qur'an is wrong when it said Issa is the Messiah?

[@z4kry44]

we Muslims believe Isa is the messiah. this discussion was just theoretical

[@01faisall]

Isa/Jesus pbus is the messiah

[@inquisitivemind007]

From a Jewish point of a view the Messiah can be non-Jewish like in the case of the Persian king Cyrus who was the annointed one as mentioned in Isaiah 45:1 and captured the Holy Land from the Babylonians and rebuilt the Solomon's Temple; for the Jews they were looking for a Cyrus the Great figure in Umar.

[@nazirkhan2141]

Fitnah

[@DusTman761]

Ini kebenaran islam bro, muhammad di quran itu gelar mesianik yg dibuat oleh orang" Yahudi saduki di Yaman abad ke 6 yg menantikan kedatangan mesias Abad ke 7 ada orang yg menggunakan gelar mesianik ini untuk menyebarkan agama

[@DusTman761]

Muhammad was Umar, Muhammad only Messianic title which mean The Praised One This title use by Saducces Jews in Yemen 100 years before Islam.

[@bryanbradley6871]

Ya I been thinking the same and I think Umar made up Muhammad and couldn't wait till he had his made up person die off. Btw nobody actually saw this Muhammad and was had a small tent 🎪 over him wherever he went and only Umar could go in the tent and resite what he says. (Btw it was alot easier to fool people back then)

[@AkramSaheb]

Messiah is not the prophet muhammad, it is Jesus or a title to mahdi "rightly guided" . The prophet muhammad is no messiah he was the seal of the prophets, nor did he claim to be a messiah. But it is interesting, i think they were waiting on a prophet mentioned in isiah 47

[@inquisitivemind007]

​@@AkramSaheb Roman historian Theopanes tells us that some Jews ✡️ thought Muhammad was the Messiah.

[@jacer5677]

loooooooooooooooool the most authentic historical sources that have ever been recorded are exactly the islamic sources. even orientatlists including Gustave Le Bon recognize how accurate they are. you want to leave what intellectuals have concluded and live in an alternate universe ? I'm not even surprised in this age of delusional self-identifying and spread of conspiracies. I bet you're a fan of joe rogan's pseudo-theories too

[@nasserharbi7839]

What? Lol No!

[@armandemsha1976]

We should not confuse things Jesus (Isa) is the Messiah The other figure Omar is not the Messiah He was a righteous guided person in Arabic is known as Mahdi I thought many times about the mosque as the third temple Because it stands there almost 1400 years I believe,longer than first and second temple.. And is pure monotheistic no statues inside people worship the GOD of Abraham plus they belong to the family of Ismael It’s just petty that they don’t allow Jews to pray. I hope that will change soon in peaceful way It is so complicated issue That peace of land it was promised to Beni Israel but the covenant was broken when they tried to kill Jesus The gentiles controlled holy land and destroyed the second temple like Jesus said. Those Roman gentiles later on converted to a corrupted Christian form. When Muslims conquered holy land it was not controlled by Jews So the conquest was seen as monotheistic victory pure monotheistic. So are the Muslims to blame about Temple Mount I don’t think so because they didn’t destroy the temple. And if they try to destroy the mosque I am shore that this will trigger a big war Because it will be seen as traitors of Islam I think only return of Jesus can rectify things GOD willing

[@inquisitivemind007]

From a Jewish point of a view the Messiah can be non-Jewish like in the case of the Persian king Cyrus who was the annointed one as mentioned in Isaiah 45:1 and captured the Holy Land from the Babylonians and rebuilt Solomon's Temple; for the Jews they were looking for a Cyrus the Great figure in Umar.

[@shaiderayaz3988]

Hi long time no c since that prank u played on yor viewers regarding the apostate sheikh that booty,well 4get it nice to c u again.😅

[@xanthumgum1624]

Allah says he knows what is in my heart and he will seal the hearts of unbelievers, my question is doesn't allah know that heart doesn't think but only brain thinks? How can a creator doesnt know about how heart and brain functions in his creation?

[@mohamedfaixan]

Brother, it's just a figure of speech. It's like sayin " He has malice in his heart." We don't mean that there is literal malice in heart, but in the thought. Heart in Islamic theology is generally organ of perception.

[@sunset2.00]

You don't understand reading between the lines. He is black hearted doesn't mean his heart is black.

[@xanthumgum1624]

@@mohamedfaixan how can eternal word of God has figure fo speech and then claim to be "the clear book" , makes zero sense... you can twist it all you can, but it is clear that "the quran" is a book of its time, NOT for ALL the time, it has gross errors and funny beliefs that jinn are scared away by god by hurling meteors and other fairy tales

[@xanthumgum1624]

@@sunset2.00 So, God is like humans and uses phrases and metaphors and then claim the book is clear and we shud all believe it blindly?

[@saw8544]

@@xanthumgum1624 Allah uses metaphors so that it’s easier for people to understand, most metaphors are clear but some are more understood by those who have knowledge and try to derive the meanings, and most if not all metaphors are about people’s beliefs. If you ask why Allah wants it to be easier? [that those who were to perish and those who were to survive might do so after the truth had been made clear to both.] 8:42 If you’re to say that some people might not understand it, thats fine because the Muslim who reads the Quran gets rewarded whether he understood it or not. But it is encouraged to gain knowledge. Also, Allah critizes blind belief across different passages in the Quran such as: - [They are ˹wilfully˺ deaf, dumb, and blind, so they will never return ˹to the Right Path˺.] 2:18 - [Indeed, there have come to you insights from your Lord. So whoever chooses to see, it is for their own good. But whoever chooses to be blind, it is to their own loss. And I am not a keeper over you.] 6:104 Lastly, Allah encourages the people to read the Quran: - [˹This is˺ a blessed Book which We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ so that they may contemplate its verses, and people of reason may be mindful.] 38:29