Was Women's Submission Just a Curse to Be Overturned? Women in Ministry part 2

There are some REALLY important debates about Genesis 1-3 and what they say about God's ideal for men and women and their relationships. Today I'm going DEEP on those issues. Here's a small sample of what we'll get into:
Does Genesis 1 giving dominion over the Earth to women as well as men mean that egalitarians are right in their contention that no authority differences based on gender should exist?
Does Genesis 2 have indications that before the fall, Adam had a leadership role in his relationship with Eve? Lots of debate on this issue!
Does Genesis 3:16, which says the husband will rule over his wife, actually mean that he will have control of her sexual desires? Dr. Linda Belleville argues for this.
Can we say that male leadership in a marriage is only the result of the fall, and we should therefore try to overturn it as much as possible just like we try to overturn other elements of the curse?
Was Adam a sexless being until after Eve was made? Dr. Phyllis Trible thinks so.
Does Adam show leadership of Eve by giving her a name?
Why is Adam made before Eve?
Why does Satan tempt Eve first?
Why does Adam seem to bear greater responsibility and consequences for the fall?
Was Eve meant to be Adam's "savior" and not his "helper"?
Today's video will be longer than usual, but I'm going to plow through a ton of content and I think it will give you simple clarity at the end, so don't feel overwhelmed by all the issues and debates. I'm going to do my best to make it as clear as I can and help you walk away with solid understanding of the nature of men and women in the image of God and their relationship to each other, both before and after the fall.
Here are some resource links you might be looking for:
CLICK HERE ( • Why We Can't Think Bib... ) for the first video in this series discussing how many people bypass the Bible completely on this topic.
CLICK HERE (www.gospeldoctrinelessons.com...) for Dr. David Freedman's paper saying "ezer kenegdo" (helper fit for him) actually means "power equal to him."
CLICK HERE ( • Ezer Kenegdo in Genesi... ) for Dr. Mark Steven Francois' video which gives the closest thing to a skilled breakdown of that paper that laymen can mostly follow.
CLICK HERE (www.jstor.org/stable/43717586) for Dr. Ramsay's paper on “Is Name-Giving an Act of Domination in Genesis 2:23 and Elsewhere?” The Catholic Biblical Quarterly, vol. 50, no. 1, Catholic Biblical Association, 1988, pp. 24–35.
CLICK HERE ( • Why We Can't Think Bib... ) for the playlist of ALL the videos in this series (more will be added as I make them).
You can also find the videos and my notes freely available on my website:
BibleThinker.org

[@rachelpeterson7481]

For all my fellow re-watchers 😊 PART ONE 5:45 Genesis 1 - males and females made in image of God, women are also given dominion over the earth 10:06 Dr Mary Conway (E) on Gen 1:28 - command to have dominion over the earth is given to both men and women (Mike introduces disagreements with view that women must stay home and not work - Titus 2:5, Prov 31 woman, Lydia, Priscilla and Aquila, Luke 8:2-3) PART 2 18:21 Genesis 2 22:03 Dr Philip Payne (E) - "Bone of my bone identifies shared standing and kinship, not authority" (2 Sam 5:1, Judges 9:2) 27:46 Payne (E) -argues man, not woman, leaves father and mother and joins with his wife 30:27 Payne (E) -argues father and mother share equal authority prior to man leaving to be with his wife. Also points out bad argument that naming humanity "man" connotes male authority. 32:25 intro to Tom Schreiner (C) - 6 reasons he believes Gen 2 supports Adam being in role of leadership over Eve 33:35 Phyllis Trible (E) - argues Adam was an asexual being until Eve was created 41:56 Schreiner point 1 (C) - primogeniture, argues Adam being created first gives more authority over Eve 44:55 egalitarian pushback to first born authority argument...Linda Belleville (E) - speaking of "order and source, not of leadership." Mary Conway(E) - points out multiple times a younger person leads the older in the Bible 51:56 point 2 (C) - Adam was given command not to eat, not Eve 53:08 point 3 (C) - Eve was created as "helper" for Adam vs. (E) -ezer does not have submissive meaning, God as -ezer 1:01:11 Payne (E) - argues -ezer refers to an equal or superior, women as "rescuer of men" 1:07:40 point 4 (C)- Schreiner argues flow of passage indicates Eve was made for Adam, implying Adam has authority over her; (C) Gen 2:23 -Eve was made from man and named by him vs. (E) "name & call" both need to be used, naming is act of discernment not authority, Gen 16:13 Hagar names God, Gen 26:17-21 Isaac names wells and leaves them 1:30:49 Keener (E)- wife's submission is only as a result of the fall as part of the curse PART 3 1:32:41 - Gen 3 1:36:31 Schreiner point 5 (C) - argues serpent subverted God's pattern of leadership by tempting Eve, holding Adam accountable for both of their sins 1:41:48 Romans 5:19 - (C) Mike argues NT is consistent with saying Adam bears more responsibility for sin even though Eve ate first, Adam's curse applies to all humanity not only men 1:45:12 Payne (E) - points out flawed complementation arguments of "Eve usurping Adam's authority" and "Adam's mistake was letting his wife lead -bc you listened to your wife" 1:47:37 Gen 3:16 - the curse for women "your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you" Belleville (E) argues Eve's desire is for physical intimacy with her husband. 1:59:44 (E) view that a potential authority differential in marriage is a result of the fall and should not be propagated by churches vs. (C) view that a husband's authority was placed before the fall and the relationship itself was twisted by sin PS I would def recommend the study notes!!

[@lydiah317]

@ChristianRebel there’s a link under the video, it takes you to the notes on the Bible thinker website

[@rachelpeterson7481]

@ChristianRebel click on the video link on the front page of the website! Underneath it has a link for the notes

[@SIP5060]

Thank you so much

[@jenniferhayesyates7878]

How do we get the study notes?

[@jenniferhayesyates7878]

Ah! I found them. 😊

[@Jsalvelez]

“Just because you found a scholar or teacher you like, doesn’t mean you found the truth.” - Mike Winger. 🙌🏼

[@perfectstandardkjv6849]

And, he's telling you right there, that he's a false prophet. And, you people cannot even see it.

[@giuliaquingalahua7300]

@@perfectstandardkjv6849 when did he prophesy?

[@chickintruth]

So true. i appreciate Mike's sincere humility.:) "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

[@tiosurcgib]

Self prophesy

[@jdj2022]

@@perfectstandardkjv6849 no, he’s just telling you that you should use discernment and not follow anyone blindly including him.

[@amandacolson3791]

I’m so thankful for this. I’m a wife, mother, and public school teacher. I don’t think you realize how many “complimentarian” women, like myself, are shedding tears throughout this study.

[@Unknown2Yoo]

Why would you all be shedding tears? 🤔

[@amandacolson3791]

I have often been in circles that told me I shouldn’t be working with my large family. My in-laws included. I’m a public school teacher and my children are enrolled in the schools around me. I feel no compromise as a Christian mother to serve my community and help my husband provide financially in this capacity. I feel like it has allowed me to be more active in my children’s lives, but it hurts when brothers and sisters you love tell you they think you’re wrong for working. I’ve never noticed that God used plural pronouns when man was told to subdue the earth. I did shed a few tears when Pastor Mike pointed this out. It was nice to hear someone point out in scripture that women can work to help their families.

[@TheTykus]

@@Unknown2Yoo my guess would be confirmation of assumed truths, as well as perhaps seeing a beauty to the roles God has given. Just a guess.

[@karenb6253]

Right here with you

[@jaco7675]

@@amandacolson3791 Most (yes, most) conservative churches like to emphasize the verse as follows: “women should be workers AT HOME”, when, before the Industrial Revolution, basically everybody “worked at home”; almost nobody left their house and went off to work in a factory or office building - like they frequently do today. It’s a total misread of the intent. The correct way to read and understand that verse is: “women are to be WORKERS at home”. As in: don’t be slothful. It doesn’t prohibit or preclude a woman from engaging in commerce outside their abode. This is a huge misread of a woman’s role and the false limitation placed on her function within the family. I cringe every time this verse is misapplied.

[@billowspillow]

I was re-listening to this back in December the day before we adopted our puppy so I named him Ezer. He's a great helper. Great at waking me up at 5:30 in the morning and making me spend money on vet bills.

[@AlexM-jd4wt]

I'm a teenager who came to Christ two years ago and I just want to say thank you so much Pastor Mike for clearing up complex topics and for being willing to go deep into topics with the intent of truth-seeking! As a young lady, the unclear answers on this topic had me concerned about what I can do in ministry, so finding clarity on important topics like this where there's so much confusion is really helpful. Your videos make it easy to understand and you provide good arguments. God is really using you to help a lot of people to find more clarity on biblical topics. All of your videos have been extremely helpful, thank you for putting your bias aside to find what scripture really has to say for itself and for being fair with egalitarian and complementarian views. I'm really excited for the rest of this series!

[@vacuumpower2595]

I'm right there with ya. Been Christian all my life but have always felt called to do more. It's such a controversial topic for us girls, but I want to serve as best as I can. I found Mike fairly recently as my boyfriend, who I am considering moving states with, has been raised mormon and I'm only willing to go with him if our views align. Mike has been such a blessing for me and I'm so grateful for this channel. All the best to you! 💛

[@nathanmccumber8965]

​@@vacuumpower2595your not equally yolk God is not trinity of persons. Mormon are not in faith of Lord Jesus Christ. Get off KZbin read your king James bible God will teach you.

[@vacuumpower2595]

@nathanmccumber8965 the KJV will teach you the same trinity that we believe in. The Bible gives sufficient evidence for this. Joseph Smith changed doctrine which directly contradicts the Bible. I always use your website for doing my research in what LDS teaches, I don't just use the internet to learn. I urge you to look into it with an open mind and an open heart. Do not blindly believe in the teachings of man, rather in the teachings of the Gospel. The Bible tells us that even if an angel were to descend and speak to you revelation that went against the Bible we are to disregard the message as blasphemous. I say all of this will care for you and your faith. 💛

[@nathanmccumber8965]

@@vacuumpower2595 you and 3 gods going hell. There no God the son bibles doesn't teach that john 20:17kjv Jesus the son of God had God the Almighty father. LDS going hell too all denomination and non denominational.

[@nathanmccumber8965]

@@vacuumpower2595man teach trinity or oneness. God is spirit john 4:24kjv. God is not man. number 23:19kjv Samuel 15:29kjv Hosea 11:9kjv 3 in one of devil confusion. Read James 2:19kjv. Count out your gods that's aren't same person. God authors of confusion 3 in one doesn't add up.

[@FreeindeedwithCharlie]

This subject I have struggled with my whole life. Since having either abuse or neglect from almost all males in my life I have finally found God again through a beautiful Christian man who leads by example. Now I am trying so SO hard not to be rebellious and learning how to be humble and submit which seemed like a mountain of self work and goes against my conditioning. This topic has both riled me up and put me off a relationship with God and with men. But thank you for diving so deep to carefully explain how those roles are caring and interconnected with love at the core. Hopefully applying this understanding we can better serve each other and our Lord. God bless

[@justkenzie]

Keep learning more about the depth of the male-female-relationship design. It is VERY profound as it gives us a deeper understanding of who God is and why Christ had to die. The more you meditate on this, the easier it will be to submit and respect God's design for each of your roles. 💜

[@abbied.]

This comment is so sweet. Kudos to you for this attitude. It’s not easy 😅.

[@bekkahboodles]

God bless you, it's helped me in similar ways and I share similar struggles with rebellion. Having a godly husband makes a WORLD of a difference!!! Suddenly I understand the respect of voluntary submission. My husband is the only man I've ever known who is worthy of that kind of trust and submission. It's hard but I'm getting there, and our relationship is so much healthier when I submit and he faithfully uses his authority for God and to help me grow.❤️💕💖 He never abuses that power!

[@Mike65809]

Submission is not the bad word we have made it out to be in recent times. Jesus, for example, was totally submitted to the Father and only said and did what the Father showed him. The apostles were submitted to Jesus and the whole church must be submitted also. Submission actually is the basis for humility, which is the basis for wisdom. As Scripture says, "When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom" (Prov. 11:2). This is where the most humble and submitted can have much more wisdom than the proud leader! I know this runs contrary to "freedom" the "spirit of independence" and all of that, but it is God's way and the best way. Walk in it and you will be blessed.

[@marissalorraine8700]

Me too girl!!! I joke that my first 2 years of marriage were the worst haha mainly because of how much undoing of my bad habits and thinking took. To have trust, not asume my own husband is out to get me or control me. He is the most patient human I’ve ever met. Thank God. I used to be an outright man hater 🤣☠️ thought all men were nasty manipulators. Wrong! Letting that go helped me love deeper and get real with my husband - now 9 years married! Woot! God is so good!

[@ailene_e]

Random but one of my favorite things about Genesis chapter 3 is that God even bothers to seek Adam out and have this conversation with him to find out what happened, as if he didn’t already know lol. I think it’s a great representation of the fact that God values and wants a relationship with us, He seeks us out for that reason. Makes me happy. Once again, thank you for all your hard work and research Mike! This is teaching me so much on how to properly approach the Bible and how to study it properly in general.

[@SaenzSword.ofTHE.SPIRIT]

I believe GOD is expresses a broken heart when HE says, “where are you?” Adam had broken the close union. If anyone has ever had a broken heart, I imagine this to be 100 times worse.

[@livingtoaster1358]

@@SaenzSword.ofTHE.SPIRIT I never thought of it that way wow

[@HarrisonTheGrey]

Yea, notice that they were removed from Eden only after blaming each other/the serpent. Wonder what would have happened had they just confessed and asked for forgiveness.

[@TheBradleyd1146]

@@HarrisonTheGrey Could Adam and Eve had known Confession and forgiveness since they were just coming out of a state of perfection ?

[@HarrisonTheGrey]

@@TheBradleyd1146 good question

[@natmichelle]

Thank you so much for covering this. As a millennial woman, this is an area that is really tough for me to wrap my head around. God bless!

[@katiehonnery9059]

Listen to Allison and Nick Quients response to Mike winger

[@jasonbourne5142]

​@@katiehonnery9059no need, complimentarians are correct.

[@vivienneb6199]

Don't listen to this crap.

[@selahr.]

As a marriage counselor… The translation I first studied used the word “longing” for what Eve would feel. I know many use the word “control.” I think in current language we would best understand it as “have wants from.” Because as a marriage counselor we see the curses in action in every couple… it sounds like this: “She’s constantly asking me to do more things around the house, and take her out on dates and vacations, and tell her I love her every time I leave the house even if I am just going to the backyard… and she texts all day, and then when I come home from work she wants to tell me all about her day and the drama at work and her friends lives like I care…, she doesn’t realize how tired so am after work, and how fried my brain is, I just want to have some time to play video games or watch football… or go out with the guys sometimes to golf. But she gets mad at me that I’m not giving her all my free time. I just need space, she’s got to figure out how to have her own life sometimes!” And then the wife complains “All he really cares about is work. Then he comes home and just disappears into his stupid video games. He says he needs quiet time. Well what about me and what I need! Why won’t he tell me about his day? Why can’t I go with him when he goes to see his friends sometimes? Now he turns his phone off when they golf so I can’t even check up on him to see how it’s going or when he might be home. It’s not asking too much to know where he’s going and when he’ll be back. And then yesterday I came to bed wearing a pretty new nightgown and he didn’t even notice. It really hurt my feelings. He doesn’t say I’m pretty anymore. I’m afraid he’s going to find someone else.” She wants him to be her husband, her partner, her helper, her best friend, her playmate, her comforter, her protector, her sense of emotional security, her source of affirmation, and usually a substantial part of her purpose in life or sense of belonging… he is her home. He works hard to be as much of that as he can, but he carries a lot of stress, and he faces a lot of burnout… and the one thing he craves (space/time away from her wants) puts more tension between them even when he does not want or intend for it to do so. He “rules over” her and her wants (and sometimes over her emotions, self-esteem, and her sense of safety in the world and in the relationship) when he has to say no to (or not do) something she’s asking/wanting from him. Just like the ground has become harder to work after the fall, the ground of our relationship becomes harder to work.

[@JonathanJilliana]

This is a brilliant insight

[@JonathanJilliana]

Even in application with Cain and in Song of Solomon, it makes sense. LONGING, wanting to possession of. Sin YEARNING to have its expression and way. It all brings a much clearer picture of what is trying to be expressed in the language.

[@TPranara]

Exactly. I am not sure if Marriage is really worth it.

[@selahr.]

@@TPranara It’s worth it when you’re with the right partner for the right reasons and you two hold the same belief that the marriage itself is like a third person in the equation (meaning even when I don’t like you I still have a strong desire to work through the problems because I value the marriage and want what’s best for it). Most of my couples in the worst shape just saw marriage as something you’re just supposed to do because you dated long enough that it was just the next step in acting like an adult, or a way to stop being asked when you’re going to get married, or some other throwaway idea… so when there’s tough times it easier to want to just throw away the marriage to make life easier… especially when the partner or struggle is hitting a nerve that means you’re going to have to grow in maturity or face childhood traumas or learn how to be less selfish and you’d rather grow apart than do the hard work of growing psychologically. The other all to common common problem in marriages on the rocks is one partner saw red flags while dating but didn’t take them seriously and eventually those red flags became active crises. It’s usually the female or more romantic partner who thought the feeling of being in love was enough to ignore or survive any red flags, or who were settling because they didn’t think they were worth waiting to find a better partner, or they already had kids and because they thought this person was good with the kids it was worth the gamble so they rushed in. And the last big point to remember is when the marriage starts to have problems get help. Research shows is that on average a couple has been struggling with big relationship problems for seven years before they seek marriage counseling. That’s a lot of years of damage, resentment, bad habits, distrust, and depression to try to fix. It’s like waiting until the patient is dead and the funeral home is on the phone to make arrangements before calling 911 for medical help. Marriage counselors are not magicians. We should not be seen as the last stop where you go to get permission to bury the relationship you’ve tortured and neglected for years so you can absolve yourself of “having tried everything but it just didn’t work out”. Know your own baggage, so your own therapy. Know why you’re picking that partner. Be able to see their strengths and weaknesses. Know their skeletons in the closet and accept them as part of reality not things you think you can fix or that will just vanish in marriage. Don’t ignore red flags. Don’t be afraid of premarital counseling. Don’t fall in love with the person you think they may become in the future but with who they are now even if they never improve. Be on the same page for what is the roll of marriage, what’s the point/value/purpose, and be clear on where your faith falls into that because it’s like deciding to have a child together… God intended it to become something you two create and nurture and keep alive… it’s not just a permission slip to live together and use new prefixes like a new job title. When it’s right you’ll grow in ways you never expected and you’ll heal old wounds in ways that being more peace and strength into your character. When you’re a good team you both feel more capable to take on the world and handle the stress of life. And you’ll even see that the times you do fight are opportunities to grow and to love each other in new ways and depths. A good analogy is marriage is a rock tumbler and we are the raw rocks, and the stress in life throws us around in the rock tumbler. And if we’re careful about how we bump into each other (how hard, how often, how sharp our deepest edges cut into each other) we can begin to take on a whole new beautiful and smooth appearance like a polished gemstone. But how we fight, and how we show grace and love to each other, and how we build good shared values and habits, and how we choose to stay and grow together instead of choosing anger, resentment, and replacement, are what makes the difference between polishing or breaking one or both of us in the tumbling.

[@michellerutherford9142]

Yes, finally. Thank you for your insight. My experience is similar. Women look to their husbands for their value and fulfillment and this desire rules over them, creating expectations that no man can meet, rather than focusing on God to meet their needs. Men look to their accomplishments toiling through their own efforts for value and fulfillment as men due to unrealistic expectations which lead to shame, rather than trusting in God, his maker and sustainer for all things. Her desire for him rules over her. His neglect of her because of his work creates a cycle that has been at work ever since.

[@daverogg8701]

Because you don’t teach like some boring professors, yet with authority, and you make it fun and so informatively interesting, even an uneducated geezer like myself can understand it. I’m really enjoying this and looking forward to all the remaining videos. Thank you, Mike, so much for the work you’re putting into this topic!!!

[@betsyb2256]

When i was in my 20s ... got married at 24.... this always bothered me. Now that I'm older, 54, and happily married I figured out harmony resulted from the traditional roles and the man/husband as head of the household. He has the ultimate say. I serve him and in his turn he serves me. I fought against those roles for years. God has a reason for everything he does and I'm so blessed to have a harmonious marriage. We are truly happy.

[@sambothebeast]

“Don’t come against farming, come against thorns and thistles” beautifully summarised 👏 ❤

[@dudestoneking]

i love your extended videos . i treat them like a bible study, stop the video to look up passages, write my own notes and so on.

[@800052222]

My wife is a successful businesswoman. She still fields (as recently as this past Sunday) comments from men and women alike in our Baptist church that "encourage" her not travel for work because she needs to be at home to take care of me and the kids. She has not traveled recently due to covid, but her travel was mostly international. She finally got tired of the comments and respectfully told an older woman at the church, "Well, believe it or not, I actually really like traveling and experiencing diverse cultures from around the world." She was met with a silent stare. Personally, I like that she gets to have those experiences, and I want her to have those experiences. She’s traveled frequently to China, Hong Kong, Argentina, Brazil, London, Taiwan, and less exotic places state-side like NY and LA. I especially like the fact that I don't have to pay to send her around the world to enjoy those experiences. We have a very strong family unit, and above all, my wife and I are in agreement. We have no conflict with how to run the family and we all do what is necessary, whenever necessary to raise our children.

[@800052222]

A follow-up thought to my comment: My wife fully recognizes and accepts my role as the head of our family, and that being the role and authority given to me by God to make decisions for my family. If it makes me happy for her to travel, or work outside of the home, or if I say, “I don’t need, or expect you to cook for me”, then there is nothing biblically wrong with her doing those things. Don’t try to diminish the authority granted to a husband by God to make these decisions. I find the most conflict occurs in this area when a man feels threatened by the success of his spouse's endeavors, or somehow feels they (the man) will "lose face."

[@joycelint6652]

I believe couples need to do what works best for them. I learned of some families where the wife is able to have a good paying job with necessary benefits and likes working. While the husband stays home and takes care of the children and everything needed to be done at home.

[@ryanjamietaylor1134]

You're a great husband

[@OutlawToys]

@@800052222 Maybe she should just respond "shouldn't you be talking to my husband about this?"

[@amandaleidy1820]

This is a dynamic and lovely marriage

[@austinwakeman89]

I've been learning Spanish for a while now and the thing where they use the masculine to refer to a group is used in Spanish as well. I never knew the Hebrew word for man was used that way in Genesis 1! So interesting! Thanks Mike! Also something I've noticed from watching Mike for a while is every time he makes a definitive statement about something he believes to be true, he always tells us to read for ourselves. I've never seen him just tell us to take his word for it or try to pull a fast one on us he always encourages reading and learning on our own. Such a great example in today's culture where "experts" will just tell you their opinions and act like that's just how it is.

[@taylorc53]

I read an article about the Proverbs 31 woman that suggests that her work that's discussed is over her lifetime. To me this really took a lot of weight off of the "you have to do it all and at the same time" struggle. It makes sense that over various times and stages in her life she is able to have different focuses and responsibilities

[@run4cmt]

Absolutely! You may be a stay at home mom for a bit. But I think there is still lots of time in your life for other things. I think if God gives us gifts we need to use them.

[@Sirkento]

I posted this comment up above but it seems appropriate to say it here again. I don't think the purpose of proverbs 31 is to describe all of the chores a woman is supposed to complete. I think it is an ideal of the time for the work the woman should be doing to be helpful to the good of the household and family. Those ideals may vary depending on the family situation and I think it is completely reasonable for it to mean the woman working hard at a job and doing the best for the family while she's home. I think the important takeaway is if the husband is working then the proverbs 31 wife is not sitting home idly enjoying her time and freedom all day but rather working and being productive for the good of her husband and her family. That often means things like dishes and laundry which feels like a patriarchal thing but if it's the biggest thing the family needs and you are the one who is at home and able to perform it, whether you are the man or woman in the family, then it needs to be done and there is a great honor in maintaining it. So in conclusion yes you should not feel a pressure to fulfill all of the tasks of the Proverbs 31 Woman in a certain period Of time. Rather just strive to be honorable and hardworking and do things self sacrificially for your family which by the way is also the man's responsibility both at home and at work.

[@hisandhersips5301]

Throughout Proverbs we encounter wisdom personified as a woman (e.g. 1:20 ,3:13, etc). It is possible that "Proverbs 31 woman" serves as the culminating vision of Lady Wisdom. In this way, Proverbs 31 isn't trying to lay a lofty burden on women but rather is presenting a beautiful vision of what life can look like if we (women and men) strive after wisdom and apply it to our lives. In other words, Proverbs 31 shows us what wisdom (i.e. Lady Wisdom) looks like in it's fullness. If this is the case, then Proverbs 31 shouldn't serve as an unattainable weight laid on the backs of women but rather as an inspirational vision, for all people, concerning the benefit and beautiful of a wisdom-filled life--a life of living with the fear of God within a broken world. So, this vision should lead us to "marry" this woman--Wisdom.

[@kamarwashington]

@@hisandhersips5301 Incredible reach. In other proverbs where wisdom is personified as a woman it’s very obvious. This is clearly describing what good woman/wife would be.

[@hisandhersips5301]

@@kamarwashington Not a reach but rather a contextual reading. It is the culminating vision of what wisdom looks like in action--and it is applicable to all.. Nevertheless, this personified wisdom is not something we perfectly reflect. Ultimately these verses should move us to look forward to Jesus--the ultimate embodiment of Wisdom of which Paul declares "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3).

[@robinette64]

Just finished the video. VERY well done. I am learning so much through this series! Thank you, Pastor Mike for your thorough treatment of the topic. 🙌🏼🙌🏼❤️

[@Particularly_John_Gill]

I’m only 15 minutes and I can tell this series is going to really influence my views on this topic. Thank you for doing so much research into this for the lay person.

[@strykerdawn1]

Don't let it influence your views unless you check it against the Bible. Which might take a few years. Keep reading it over and over. God bless you!

[@jdj2022]

@@strykerdawn1 I get what you are saying and agree for the most part, but they said let it influence their views not change their mind. Everything you listen to about the Bible should influence your views in some way. But how much you let it influence you is key. And if someone already knows the Bible really well you can immediately discern if something lines up with the rest of scripture. It’s not as hard to spot false doctrines once you have been around the block a few times.

[@strykerdawn1]

@@jdj2022 So true!

[@chrismcintyre9172]

I'm a fundamental baptist so a complementarian. I also have a career as a software developer. I was very conflicted for many years because I was a stay at home mom while my kiddos were young and yet felt like I wasn't helpful monetarily. Since beginning a full time career outside of the home, I've realized how important it is to NOT allow a career to be more important than rearing/caring for my family. I almost regret transitioning to full time work as some things aren't taken care of "as well" as they could be if I was able to care for my home/family for the majority of the day. My main job, as a woman, is to keep my home and make sure my kids are raised to honor God. When I stand before God, I have to answer for any lapses in parenting because I was not as available during those important years. I agree women can work beyond the home but only if their responsibilities at home aren't falling to the wayside. We need to keep that in mind when pursuing passions/careers.

[@k-dogg9086]

True. I also agree with what you said.

[@k-dogg9086]

Too many women got rebellion in their mind or money or the jezebel spirit of promiscuity manipulation rebellion and control.. especially with these feminists. And look at society today!

[@nathanmccumber8965]

All denomination and non denominational are HELL BOUND. God is not trinity u worship roman catholic rebrand Triune gods.

[@SaraH-in8uc]

All the way through this I was like "I'm not getting anything out of this, I don't get it" and then Right at the end he said 'the curse made natural/good things harder' and I got it. Sometimes pushing through 2 hours of 'huh?' is worth it. Thank God for His use of Mike Winger.

[@joeewert6800]

That happens when intellectual after intellectual is cited. These intellectuals often out think their knowledge. In many realms "stupid smart people" best fits as a description. Many he is citing from cross the line of meditating on and deep diving text to just trying to look smart, ending in nonsensical gobbeldy goo.

[@Marlaina]

@@joeewert6800 Mike is using Scholar’s opposing arguments and refuting them with Scripture. He is not using Tribble’s “sexless earth creature” to look smart 😆

[@joeewert6800]

@@Marlaina doesnt change my point.

[@k-dogg9086]

If you couldn't get anything more than that in the 2 hour sermon, you aren't listening you were disagreeing.

[@steevo101]

Incredible THOUGHTFUL treatment of such an emotionally volatile issue. The struggle seems to always be the ring of power... But biblically 'authority' is not necessarily control... But fearful responsibility. Thank you Mike for your work. It is so very helpful.

[@levifox2818]

I agree. I think often both men and women approach it the wrong way-who can get more power with respect to the other. The biblical way is to take responsibility for what we’re responsible for, both men and women.

[@farmerjones9612]

fearful responsibility ...that is how Ihave thought of it but couldn't exactly think of how to say it !

[@staceyforehand9513]

Oh beautiful...fearful responsibility

[@sweetyjones1756]

The 'authority' that a man has in leading is that it is 'sacrificial' not 'authorative'. This is the significant point that a Godly man needs to realise and he will have to answer to God with the responsibility he is given. God bless

[@chickintruth]

@@sweetyjones1756 Amen. With much given, much is required. (Luke 12:48)

[@TonyYuEvangelism]

The Father and the Son are of the same essence and nature, but the Son willfully submits to the Father. Being of the same essence in no way rules out authority and submission.

[@NotEasyButSimple]

Fo real, Mike. We come for the long videos.😂 Some things just can't be said in 5 minutes and some of us really appreciate this deep dive into topics, especially ones like this that I, being a woman, really had questions about. So thank You!🙏🏿🙏🏿

[@leannewhite795]

I'd like to keep pressing the like button a million times! This is awesome and so needed! Thanks Mike and God bless you for diligent study and thorough teaching!

[@wendyanneclark]

Thank you for studying so well. I have gone back and forth in reading on these two positions and comparing to Scripture and have never found a confident place to rest. I have pastors I respect who hold differing views, and I am well aware of the distortion our culture brings to the conversation. Thank you for committing to the truth of Scripture. I am sticking with you through this much needed deep dive.

[@leslye8368]

AGREED! So hard to wait! 😁

[@martinupchurch5360]

Wow that was a lot to sit through... thanks for taking the time to go through all the details looking forward to more.

[@elijahsimerson7839]

Hey pal! I’m watching it tonight, excited for round 2!

[@martinupchurch5360]

@@elijahsimerson7839 Awesome. I really liked Mikes's thoroughness in this. While it's a lot to go through, I found it was really helpful.

[@kayleighjohnson3612]

I’m totally here for this breakdown! It is food for my soul. So glad I found your channel!

[@eflow4786]

I had to watch this video in small sections. There is so much information packed in this one video! I cannot imagine the time it took for you to research all this content. Thank you Mike!

[@CombatWombatQRF]

Great stuff! It’s definitely sustenance that must be chewed over but much better than weak sauce milk teaching haha I really appreciate your hard work, Mike, and it is such a blessing!

[@amadeusasimov1364]

You're off to a fantastic start with this series. Really great study and it's very interesting to get to hear about these two views.

[@sblack2323]

So well done. Thank you for tackling such a tough issue. Praying for endurance for you and your team.

[@ashleywilliams9056]

I am very grateful for this series and have always appreciated how thorough you are in presenting arguments from various sides so I can look at a wealth of information and come to conclusions about what the Bible is saying and hopefully will be better able to converse with people about the topic not just from one side but from a base of biblical knowledge. Thank you. I am looking forward to the rest of the series. As a woman who has wrestled with my place in ministry and how to honour God with my gifts, I have researched and contemplated this a lot. This is confirming a lot of my conclusions already. My grief as I researched was discovering the bias in many positions, weak arguments and twisting of definitions and meanings of passages. Thank you for following the complicated and twisted thoughts so they can be revealed more honestly for what they are and from there conclusions can be made. I cannot thank you enough. My husband and I are both following along and know this will be very very helpful in our circles.

[@yanaignatovich6836]

Pastor Mike, THANK YOU so much for taking time to do this. I cannot appreciate it enough

[@benjaminofperrin]

This will certainly be an interesting series Pastor Mike. It's one I've struggled with so I look forward to learning more.

[@sharonlouise9759]

Excellent! I found the teaching near the end priceless! I will listen again and take notes on that part. Thank you for your study because I know, just for this one episode you labored a lot and devoted more time than I can even imagine. Blessings.

[@robmaclean491]

Thank you Mike for doing all the research for these videos. I am a pastor and have tried to labour through this before, but have not yet been able to do a deep dive like you have. I’m learning a lot, and I am only on the second video. So thanks again!

[@elisabethizzy77]

When I find myself being in submission to my husband, willfully as that though God may have commanded me, my marriage is very fulfilled for both myself and my spouse. What a beautiful thing that God has designed as marriage. The place of women in the church is confusing to me at times, as well as respecting other men where the respect to my husband seems more clear cut. I respect your teachings Mike thank you for this series. I will be following along with you.

[@judylloyd7901]

Capital G for God, please. All proper nouns should start with a capital letter. It seems dishonouring not to, especially when referring to God 😢 Btw, no woman is expected to submit to a man she isn't married to. That's not what the scriptures teach 😄

[@elisabethizzy77]

Corrected 🙂. I understand submission to men outside of marriage is not necessarily where The Lord has called us, as this would cause trouble in our own marriage I’m sure overtime, but it is not as clear cut where role placements are. Yet based on scripture, most leaders in the Bible are male. So there does become some concern of who is proper to be head of churches. Regardless, we are in submission to our elders (as long as not going against The Lord & scripture). There is certain areas that call for submission outside of marriage that can be a bit of a murky water for me. I have studying to do and appreciate these teachings that take deep dives into these topics.

[@MichaelCorleone365]

@@judylloyd7901except you submit to your bosses will at work if he’s male

[@gigahorse1475]

I can’t thank you enough for this series.

[@joyeeverett6196]

I have to agree. I don’t know if I’m going to wind up having a position on this issue once the series is over, but to be honest, I have a lot more respect for “soft complementarianism” than I used to.

[@livvyloohoo2033]

Wow! Thank you for walking through this with us! Definitely sharing this

[@katmcneff9326]

Thank you for tackling this big topic and diving so deeply. Looking forward to more sessions.

[@TakeMeToEternity]

It is so refreshing to hear someone else care more about the text than a position. A friend and I are both in the middle on complementarian and egalitarian views. I love that you say you are a soft complimentarian because that seems to be where I am landing. There were a few things you talked about that I was kind of waiting for you to get to. (I know it’s only the second part) one of which is the fall and what God says to Eve! Great #2 blessed by these!

[@robbymacklin]

You did a great job Mike! You waded through some very difficult waters and I loved the balance you struck. This study is going to help many.

[@livingthejesusway]

Thank you so much Mike for the big work you’ve done and doing with this important topic! God bless you and your ministry! 🙏

[@matthewlooney7075]

I love how straightforward you are is definitely an example of being blunt but kind at the same time thank you for that

[@squirrelbeech1834]

Happy pastor appreciation day!!! I appreciate your time and thoughtful education. With all the pop stuff and other people’s feelings and opinions added in, I was blessed stumbling onto your channel.

[@susanwangerman1232]

Absolutely, so blessed by God to. have found you Pastor Mike. Before watching your KZbin channel I stumbled in ignorance on so many topics in Scripture. PTL!!❤️

[@MikeWinger]

Here's the playlist for ALL the videos in this series (more added as I make them) kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXm0hJ-Hgb6Eqac You can also find the videos and my notes freely available on my website. BibleThinker.org

[@Hpg12395]

Please make short form summery video because I am from India and 2 to 3 hrs. english... not able to .... Please make summery video along with adding captions. God bless you brother.

[@MikeWinger]

@ChristianRebel look for the button that says “lesson notes”

[@gloriaelmore9092]

Thank you so much for this series and the time you have spent in preparing it.

[@victoria9663]

This was the most respectful, most thorough handling of this issue I have heard yet. You even changed my mind on a couple of points I had previously held without question.

[@Once-lost]

Grateful for your willingness to touch on these sensitive topics and stay faithful with His Word! May we evaluate all things in this manner, knowing that ALL Scripture is profitable.... so that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished! Most are unwilling to recognize this and know that the profitable part is the: teaching, correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness!

[@dikkersappraisal6417]

This is turning out to be a full on Dissertation on the topic! Wonderful series so far, keep it up.

[@lorigalena8330]

My husband and I are getting so much out of this study. Thank you for all the work you have put into it. I did want to share something about naming and authority. In Genesis chapter 30, Rachael gives her maid, Bilhah, to Jacob because Leah has had four sons and Rachael has not been able to become pregnant. She says in verse three that Bilhah will bear children “for her” and that through her she can have a family as well. When Bilhah has her first child, it is Rachael that names him, not the biological mother. This is the pattern for all the children born to both Bilhah and Zilpah, who is Leah’s servant. Rachael and Leah have greater authority than Bilhah and Zilpah, even when it comes to their biological children. I am by no means a Bible scholar, but this pattern seems to give credence to the idea that naming implies authority. Thank you again for all your hard work. We look forward to your next video.

[@susanwangerman1232]

Great point!

[@nicholasgeorge7825]

Yes, good point. Those are the rules of primogeniture and patriarchy. Note how so many of the typologies of Christ in the blood line are so messy. Starting with Cain and Abel. The firstborn's offering is rejected, leading him to kill his brother. Thus the bloodline passes to a third, Seth. Next we have Abraham's son by the slave woman Hagar. Ishmael is rejected in favor of Isaac, through whom the promise will come. Then Isaac's sons are reversed at his blessing--Jacob supplants Esau, who goes down in history ignominiously, having sold his birthright for a bowl of soup. Some of these typologies are very significant in terms of the loss of Israel's blessing in favor of the Gentiles with regard to the Gospel. Here things are reversed again--Israel becomes not Israel, but Israel is like Esau. Ishmael and Hagar are likened to Israel under the law. None of this is evident in the Old Testament text itself, but in hindsight the apostles discover these patterns.

[@suzannemiller6028]

Thank you Pastor Mike for all your research and helping us understand this better!!

[@dra22554]

Thank you! I am a soft complementarian, and I recently led my family away from a hardline comp church after almost 10 years of service. There were a few factors, but the leading one was how hardline comp left many women I know to feel like 2nd class members. After some back-and-forth with my hardline friends this week, I was starting to lose hope that there was enough room in the middle for any kind of soft complementarianism. I look forward to the rest of this series. I love that you try extremely hard to present everyone’s reasoning equally. If they are on your radar at all, I would love to hear your thoughts on recent scuffles between people like Owen Strachan and women like Beth Moore and Aimee Byrd on what the Bible permits women to do under the authority of male pastors.

[@sonlover62]

My input… Paul’s comment to Timothy about not permitting women to “have authority over men” is not predicated on men “allowing” women to do/not do ANYTHING. Men do not have such authority. Rather, if a woman takes pastoral leadership in the church, she is “usurping” God’s authority. God is the one who ordained such roles-and He alone has authority. For men to “give a woman permission” to function as pastors … is to ALSO usurp (God’s) authority. Blessings…

[@fhengal]

@@sonlover62 yeah, whenever I hear a woman say something like "It's okay that I'm doing X ministry (i.e. a ministry which seems (at least, to me) to be infringing upon the injunction for women not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church) because my husband and/or the church elders affirm me doing so, and I'm just following their authority," that's my thought as well. How it is a valid or legitimate use of a man's authority to permit a woman under his authority to do something in church that Paul forbids all women from doing in church? That would be like delegating to her the authority to sin, which I don't think any man can do to/for any woman, regardless of the kind of relationship or hierarchy between them. When people have authority, that authority has specific "content," as it were. Limited authority (the only kind a human being can ever have, except Jesus who is also God) has specific intent and purpose. Authority is not merely a blanket statement to command/impute/endow all actions ever. Only God has "all authority" and likewise Jesus has this authority (c.f. Matthew 28:18), but men don't have "all authority" over everything a woman can or can't do. Husbands and fathers (and, really, any other role a man can have) have limited authority over their wives and children. But they can't impute nor delegate the authority to do something that is unnatural to their subordinates, nor can they give their subordinates the authority to do something that such men don't already possess the authority to do. Ergo, a husband can not give his wife the authority to do something that God does not give her the authority to do, merely by virtue of the husband's role of authority over the wife. Doing so would be stretching the hierarchy of the relationship to include powers it doesn't possess. Simply having a role of authority over a person does not automatically confer all possible powers over what you (as the one in the role of authority) can enable or prohibit your subordinate to do.

[@joeewert6800]

In other words you are changing churches because "how the teaching make some women feel". Feelings dont dictate biblical truth, nor should it dictate where one gets fed and worship. Nor is it good practice to seek a church that suits what you believe and want to hear rather than one that teaches hard truths and makes you squirm in the seat every so often.

[@PeterPyo]

Come on guys; he literally read Genesis 3:16 and completely ignored that the curse is that women want to control men but men will rule over women! The CURSE God explains is this broken power dynamic! And Mike’s only reason to NOT accept the plain reading that the curse was a curse of men ruling over women chafing under that rule is unstated “implications” of primogeniture that Paul then decides to use in two highly charged and highly contextual passages? Weak sauce!!!

[@fhengal]

​@@PeterPyo Actually, Mike gave a few more reasons than that. He also said that Adam names Eve but that Eve isn't listed as naming anything. Likewise, he pointed out that the consequences of Adam's curse are general, seeming to be more widely applied to the world, whereas the curse on Eve only seems to be applicable to women in particular.

[@laurinfisher6293]

I’m really glad you go into depth on both sides of the argument. It makes it feel fair and apparent you are looking into the meaning of the Bible not interpreting it to what you want it to say. There is something I’m not clear on that will probably come up later: if Adam did have some authority over Eve, what authority would that be? He doesn’t dictate her work in the world nor does he answer to God for her actions (she has her own God relationship). So what is Adam responsible for? Is it the claim that I’ve heard the most often that the husband gets the final say in affairs?

[@nicoleparsons7630]

This is a great question! I'd be interested to hear an answer, too!

[@maryellen6153]

We tend to read into passages things that simply aren't there... on both sides of this topic. I can't see that Genesis 1 and 2 say ANYTHING about Adam having authority over Eve. Nor about Eve submitting to his authority. But we all know the Fall changed everything. Before the Fall, I imagine Adam and Eve had a completely "one" relationship that mirrored the plural Godhead in every way. There was never any difference in will. Each loved to please the other. Much like couples falling in love.

[@mrupholsteryman]

I'm biased...I'm a male. If I were the first male and God took from me...to give me a helper/mate. I would look at my responsibility for my "rib". Ribs are helpful for sure...helps protect the lungs from outside influences etc. Painful when they break... I do see the hierarchy of the order of creation... I also see that when God called out (after the fall) it was only Adam that was called... I also wonder if Adam was the one that told Eve to not even touch the fruit... it could not have come from God (NOT the Author of confusion)... So...while this conversation was going on with Eve and the serpent....Scripture implies that Adam was close by....and he didn't correct his "fence law" about not just prohibited eating...but this even touching the fruit seemed to have caused doubt in this fruit to be bad when touched (at least by the serpent).... When the punishment was laid out...there was a point where God was pointing out the fact that Eve was the one in charge of Adam ( as God was not the One being adhered to in regards to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. ) From that point on (or maybe the curse of painful child birth?) The woman tends to not trust that man has her best interest at heart. Bible states she was deceived...and Adam sinned. He had a different relationship with Eve than he did with God. Very first form of idolatry..

[@laurinfisher6293]

@@maryellen6153 I’ve felt the same way. I don’t really see much evidence of authority in Genesis. However Paul in the New Testament seems quite clear. I’m planning on digging into that more.

[@maryellen6153]

@@mrupholsteryman The order of creation is different in Genesis 2 and compared to chapter 1... so we can agree that perhaps not everything was said... It doesn't say whether Eve was present when God gave the command. It doesn't say whether Adam added "dont' even touch it" or if it was Eve. So, since the Bible doesn't say it... then we probably ought not make a big deal out of it. I find it highly significant that God specified to both Adam and Eve that they together held dominion over all of Creation... and yet NEVER specified to Adam that he held hierarchy over Eve. You rely on inferences... which can lead to damnable heresies in all kinds of directions. I mean, if you want the Bible to infer something, there's a verse SOMEWHERE that you can make it sound like God inferred it! No. I go by what the Word SAYS. Not by what you can read into it.

[@AN-jw2oe]

Thank you!! Going deep on these topics is SO helpful to me as a wife and mother, I look forward to all the future parts in this series!! Thank You for teaching the truth of Scripture in such an intellectually honest way!

[@Scorchtheearth]

Don’t stop never stopping Pastor Mike. Thanks for your hard work!

[@anrenes3459]

I’m enjoying these. Thank you for all the work you have put into this. As a busy mom, I truly appreciate the distilled down information readily available. God’s speed in your study! ☺️

[@leofranz9720]

Very well put together. Thank you, Mike!

[@TheAmykathleen]

Love this study! Thanks for all your HARD work Mike!!! Looking forward to the rest! Extremely helpful in so many ways and so many questions answered in a lifetime of frustration!

[@scottranck2225]

The wrap up was very powerful! It was challenging getting it to it though! thanks for all your hard work!!!

[@TheDbwillia]

Pastor Mike thank you so much for your dedicated and biblical truth in this video. I love that this is a Bible study format so I can walk through the issues with you - step by step. I’m praying for your ministry and family and for Sarah (who is such a vital blessing to this community). Thank you for following God’s will in your life so many are benefiting and you are doing more work for the kingdom of heaven than you can imagine.

[@truthanddelusion2008]

I feel like I'm going to need to watch this one at least 3 times to properly take in all of the incredibly thoughtful content! Thanks for doing this series, Pastor!

[@nathanmccumber8965]

Trinity doctrine of devils. God had a son Jesus even said worship God I'm spirit and truth john 4:23-24kjv. Jesus had a God john 20:17 kjv. John 17:3. Jesus even called Holy Ghost Father..

[@Shammah_YHWH]

This is awesome! I don’t know how people don’t find the in-depth analysis fascinating!!

[@melissacarter7936]

I hung in there!. This helped me so much. Thanks for all the time you spent preparing this for us

[@rawar777joshanderson]

Hey Mike, thank you for going into such depth on this topic. Back when I was on Facebook I saw someone post this that sums the whole thing up in two sentences. “A woman was not made to do everything a man can do. A woman was made to do everything a man can’t do.“

[@LaurenFrancesHair]

I watch as many videos of yours as I can with 3 young children. But I always watch to the very end. Love your content. I am so grateful for the work you put into this. Thank you pastor Mike!

[@dhrh0500]

Same. Started right away, almost through. A day later. 🤣

[@aprincesspanda]

Thank you for this thoughtful study! I had to rewatch to digest it all, but it was well worth it. Appreciate all your time and hard work.

[@69telecasterplayer]

Masterfully done. Thank you for this series and the hard work that went into it.

[@pagegallimore1833]

I really need this teaching and I am enjoying it. Thank you, Mike

[@jeffreybomba]

The curse was the animosity, the lording over and the woman’s desire for the role of leadership in the home. Women that don’t like God’s order want to be in charge, but they want the man to take the blame when things go wrong. I’ve had professing christian women tell me that is what the Bible really teaches.

[@user-ex9ti7ds3m]

I just finished and I really appreciate this series. I have already recommended it in my church's college age and young adult group's GroupMe.

[@run4cmt]

Thank you for the time you have put into preparing this much needed study.

[@ReformedNerd]

🔥🔥🔥Made it through the entire video who’s with me?!

[@katherinedrake1896]

Thanks for all your work Mike! I've been really looking forward to this study and so far it's 👌

[@georgeplatt3347]

Thanks so much for your prep and hard work which has gone into this.

[@WendyWzOpinion]

Excellent video!! I’m so glad you have tackled this so thoroughly. So many just grab one commentary or verse or one viewpoint and never stop to consider what the Bible (the whole thing) has to say about it. Thank you! We all need this kind of thorough, balanced teaching.

[@marahdolores8930]

Thank you for this series. I need to say something though. Regarding the curse, I see the "desire for her husband" as referring to a woman's need for security, emotional connection and relational intimacy (not simply *only* the physical act of sex), where as the man wishes to simply satiate himself, often while denying her what she considers intimacy. Thus "intimacy" can mean two completely different things. Men tend to be emotionally aloof, being able to separate sex and intimacy, whereas most women don't manage that very well, particularly long-term. The more she seeks this, the more he refuses. @Mike Winger, have you considered this? For a present-day example, see the MGTOW types' perpetual decrying women as "too needy" and their contempt for this facet of women's nature while simultaneously demanding their "right" to sex. Maybe it was always historically the case, but it sadly seems men have no desire to "know" women, aside from in the carnal sense. At least this is the way it plays out in my situation. My husband certainly has his authority in our marriage, (and I do my best to submit), while I do not receive fulfilment of my need for emotional intimacy, affection, or communication. The intimacy I yearn for, was teased with, and promised in vows disappeared within 6 months of marriage. This has made my marriage a very bitter pill. I have tried to communicate this repeatedly to my husband over the years to no avail. My desire to divorce is strong, but there are no Biblical grounds. I pray, try to apply Scripture, and do my best to endure and run my race, trying to submit as gracefully as I can because it is pleasing to God. (I hope to be molded in the image of Christ, loving despite not being loved.) I know that God sees my husband's harsh attitude and hard-heartedness, and I have faith that He will deal with it. I desire an intimate RELATIONSHIP, not merely the physical act of sex devoid of that. It bothers me a great deal when people conflate the act of physical sex with emtional and relational intimacy. Those things do not necessarily naturally go together, and the act of sex is not necessarily a truly intimate one. Otherwise pornography and prostitution would not be so outrageously profitable - these are merely slaking of physical lusts, devoid of any real intimacy. I wish people would stop using the term "intimacy" when referring to just sex - they are NOT the same thing! To me, this part of the curse makes perfect sense, because I've seen it play out for many long, sad years. Childbirth is a cake walk compared to this perpetual yearning misery.

[@TOBYD7]

It would be very helpful to understand or know your husband's view and thoughts on both of your relationships to each other and Christ. Do both of you love Christ more than each other, loving God with all heart, mind, soul and strength? Both sides versions are always revealing and important for each other and any counselor to know. I have seen spouses.. (husband's and wives) that are difficult to satisfy and or do not accept loving gestures or gifts or actions, based on their mistrust or selfishness brought on by other life experiences that are not the spouses fault or involve.ent in. i.e... not all gifts or actions are false attempts to buy love, or make up for mistakes. Our own faults or shortcomings in our walk can result in lack of trust or even love. If we seek God first, and love Him with all heart, mind, soul and strength.. we just might lose desires for divorce and other worldly temptations.

[@northstar2621]

Sex is physical intimacy, that's why it's called that.

[@stingray4540]

As a man, I agree with you 100%. That is exactly the case. Many men do not connect love and relationship with sex. Some of us could have sex with any number of random women and not give two craps about them, or not even find them attractive. We can also have a very close relationship with a women and never have sex with her. This is why polygamy has been a thing for so long in human history, including in the Bible. It’s women’s not understanding of this with the progression of feminism that has pushed monogamy to the forefront of culture and making porn/masterbation taboo. Some men are simply not in touch with their emotional side and they show love by providing for you, and that is what we are contractually bound to. You may want to start seeing a counselor on your own and as a couple to try to find out how he can provide what you want or how you can find those things from another source. One thing to understand though, is that we as humans have a desire to “be in love”; that feeling of a new relationship, but that feeling doesn’t last forever, and you likely aren’t going to find it without starting a new relationship. But to love is not the same as to be in love. To love is to take care of another’s needs and to care about their well-being whether you want to or not, whether they reciprocate or not. If it wasn’t for my Christian belief in fulfilling my marriage contract, I would have divorced my wife a long time ago. The worse in “for better or for worse,” isn’t financial trouble, it’s when you have no desire to be in the relationship and have no new relationship type feelings toward your spouse, but you choose to continue to love them and fulfill your role in the relationship regardless. That’s what helped me push forward, recognizing that I have a duty, a responsibility and a promise to keep regardless of my feelings or desires. That is dying to self, that is bearing all things, enduring all things, not insisting on its own way or being resentful. We cannot make others love us, but we can choose to love others.

[@marahdolores8930]

@@northstar2621 no, that is incorrect. Sex can too often have absolutely nothing to do with true intimacy. Are you saying that men seeking pornography, serial one-night stands, friends with benefits, engaging in pedophilia or hebephilia, or hiring prostitutes are being "intimate" with their receptacles? Worse yet, how about those into snuff, like serial sex offender murderers? Sorry, but they are simply using people, not engaging in anything aside from temporarily slaking lusts.

[@northstar2621]

@@marahdolores8930 ~physical~ intimacy. The fact that a man an a woman are so close to each other physically and create/renew a spiritual bond is the intimacy part.

[@mo-215]

What a phenomenal job teaching and addressing this. You're doing amazing work, Mike.

[@GinaRM444]

Agreed!!

[@strineys.957]

God bless you Mike. Thank you for your dedication in leading us to the path of righteousness.

[@gospelfreak5828]

Great video. A lot to consider here. You’re series have always been great. I’ve missed your content like this

[@bellomo7]

I appreciate your discernment on this topic!

[@pamvandivort5445]

THANK YOU SO MUCH, Pastor Mike! I appreciate every second of your teachings. The research, thought & prep that lead to such tremendous Scripture-revealing delivery have enriched my relationship with God immeasurably. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a ‘too long’ Bible Thinker video. Thanks again & may God continue to bless you & your ministry.

[@susanwangerman1232]

I commented above, but àlso want to add my testimony to others who have been helped by all your teaching. I went to college at the start of the feminist movement and in the 60's and 70's went way off track into doctrines of demons which suited my own rebellious nature ruining my marriage, hurting many people. The egalitarian viewpoints seems at its conclusion to eventually lead away from submission to God. I know submission to authority was the issue for me in other areas of my life also. Thank you Pastor Mike for your loving biblical exposition of these arguments

[@emtnest]

I’m loving this series! Thank you Mike!

[@alexguardado6942]

You're doing such a huge work on this topic, and I just wanted to say to you that it's being helpulf, at least for me. Great video.

[@timothyschreiber8338]

Thank you pastor Mike!

[@derekmorris7128]

I cannot thank you enough for being there and doing these video's. I am 59 years old and I have learned more in the last week on Christianity since I have been watching your video's than I ever did previously . You have answered questions I have had literally for years. I sincerely thank you. The only problem I have now is that I think I am addicted to watching them all, I plan on doing just that. No doubt God is with you! Thanks again.

[@salome7742]

Salome from South Africa... Love love your teachings!!! Stuck through the while 2 hours!! So many queations answered!

[@RosaBetina]

Truly appreciate your studies and teachings Mike! I find myself listening to you while I work and it makes the time go by so fast 😄

[@daviddufty9759]

Thanks Mike, this was a very balanced presentation. :)

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

I will agree this is a difficult subject for Christians. I see how many different things you have to deal with when it comes to interpretation and belief.

[@sheilasmith7779]

@mugglescakesniffer3943::most often at root of differences on scripture is really about what we LIKE and what we don't.

[@dlynch1898]

Mike TFS loved all the new words and so appreciate your time and efforts. I feel like I’m getting a college education. Gods blessings and I’ll be praying for you. 👍

[@dcoff2443]

Love love this so much!!! *RANT AHEAD LOL* As a daughter of a mother whom worked diligently in and out of the home regardless of the very bold feminists in our family, even through domestic violence into a very needed divorce and through single motherhood… did all the working, and cleaning, and stewarding up to exhaustion and I watched that transition into a role of beautiful complementarianism when she married my step dad and over years slowly came back to the Lord when I was a young adult… ( I was saved shortly after 🙌🏽) I didn’t understand why she worked out of the home and still found joy in the working in all aspects and loving her family in many capacities and I not aware of that beauty came to resent that… but fast forward to being a homeschooling mother of 6 kids, I can not tell you how very much teaching like this Mike is so important to our generation, submission always points back to Jesus… I’m still learning daily about it… I’ve heard it said that if a man is godly and driven to Christs example then why wouldn’t any women want to be under that kind of leadership… there’s flourishing in that freedom… definitely sanctification for both, but 11 years into marriage and I can’t tell you how often my husband and I listen intently to your teaching, discuss together and are renewing our minds in the flourishing of your sharing of God’s word. Blessed by your ministry!

[@mackenzielizotte2333]

Took me three days, but I finally finished the video! Thank you, Mike, for the work you're doing with this series!

[@thedarkdane7]

"When it comes to translation, we want what is natural, not what is possible." Excellent!

[@rosilenedemelo4718]

English is not my first language, but still I'm doing as much effort as I can to understand your explanations about those so important issues. Thank you for sharing your researches and thoughts with us. May God bless you!

[@arnoldhartzenberg4040]

Thank You Mike. I have been wrestling a lot with this topic. This resource helps me a lot to think biblically. To be honest, I brought my own bias into this topic and the first video put me in the right space to critically think about the arguments that you presented in this video. Looking forward to the rest.

[@karenreynolds349]

Thanks for your ministry Pastor Mike,. I was brought up in a church denomination that didn't make a distinction between men and women in " church roles". They served in the same capacity, Nothing was taught about it and no one questioned the roles. It was normal seeing a woman and man " equal" in all roles of the church but I want to think biblically about this matter!!! God Bless!

[@christophersalvatoreraimun8578]

Very well researched and explained material. My respect to you. Thank you for this work., may God continue to bless you.

[@PSUwife]

Good stuff! I’m enjoying the benefits of all your studying. I’ve spent much time on this as well.

[@jerome620]

There is male headship before the fall. What changed is Eve's desire to have headship. The curse is not male headship. The curse is that women now desire headship, which is improper and in conflict with the created order. Like the old saying goes, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Mike, I appreciate your ability to keep your emotions in check while exploring both sides of a seemingly complex topic.

[@Dane-k5]

Asking out of genuine curiosity to learn in this subject, When did Eve crave headship, was it in the curse or does she just gradually through the bible? When does it say Eve craved headship, or are you simply using Eve as an umbrella term for women? Is it wrong for women to want to be in power or authoritive positions, and where in the bible does it say that if so. Also what do you define as Authority over Man? Does being in parliament or being a ruling figure count as ruling over man? Or is it just a ruling figure in church wich is bad Yet again to confirm I'm asking the questions without hate and if you can tell the answers I'd really appreciate that as a fellow Christian.