Watch this before you make Hanfu. Please.

We need to talk. Ive been seeing a ton of non asian people wearing asian historical clothing so I'm making this video to share my thoughts. Some asians will disagree with me but thats okay. Asians are not a monolith just like every single other minority in this county. I hope you find this educational and helpful!
xoxo
Ora {they/them}
❤️Support me ko-fi.com/oralin/ ❤️
Instagram: @ora_lin
For business inquiries only
[e-mail]
Camera: Panasonic g85 with kit lens amzn.to/3sZqgNy
Editor: Davinci resolve

[@chencs]

Coming out of my lurky KZbin hole to make my first comment ever~ The thing you said about partnering _with_ people who were raised in a culture/are experts at a cultural craft resonated with me. These crafts weren't developed in isolation, and it's impossible to portray them with historical accuracy with knowledge developed in isolation. One of the most compelling framings I've ever encountered/experienced around why it's harmful to frame cultural tourists/enthusiasts as "experts" is that it pollutes the learning environment for _anyone_ who is trying to learn about a culture's history, and _especially_ for people trying to reconnect with their heritage, making it hard to separate what comes from years or generations of cultural development, and what comes from one person's idea of what a culture is.

[@Ora_Lin]

THIS

[@endina]

Hi! The one thing about this is many cultural clothing tailors/makers are going out of business due to lack of market. While kimono is still worn on certain occasions and bought to this day, less people are buying it. As a Japanese person myself, I would rather have other people appreciate my culture and encourage the action of keeping the tradition alive by putting money into the industry. I hope to know your thoughts on this!!👍👍

[@Rachel-xf3op]

I’m half Korean, half white, born and lived in the Midwest US my whole life. I’ve been told that I look “fully Asian” but culturally I am almost 100% american (I guess I take my shoes off inside and eat kimchi but…). I don’t have any more than a surface level knowledge of Korean history or culture, the average white kpop fan probably knows more than I do. So it feels weird that anyone who is not “visibly Asian” would be under more scrutiny for wearing a hanbok, while no one would bat an eye if I did, even though I certainly have no special appreciation for its meaning. I understand why that instinct is there but, I guess as someone mixed I am always thinking about how racial categories are an inconsistent mess, and that visual identifiers of someone’s ethnicity tell you nothing about their culture, experience, etc. I appreciate the video, it’s given me some things to think about.

[@Ora_Lin]

I definitely get that as a half white half Asian, also fairly American raised. I do believe in exploring your own cultural heritage as a “birth right” of sorts, but you’re absolutely right that it is impossible to tell someone’s culture experiences just by looking at them. For me, learning about critical race theory (CRT) it’s really important to me that that is the lens through which we look at race and culture, so if it’s not apparent to me that people are doing that I think it’s safe to assume that they are not.

[@Ora_Lin]

that's why its important for me to see the affirmative action that people are doing, if they are sharing things from other cultures

[@annamelendez8276]

I live with a fairly similar case at home: my boyfriend is 1st generation Japanese immigrant. He knows his fair share of Japanese culture but has barely any knowledge when it comes to traditional JP clothing and therefore doesn't know how to wear it. Due to our shared hobby (LARP), every time he has to/wants to put on one of his Kimono for an event he asks me (a 100% Spanish white gal) to help him dress because I am the nerd that studies Japanese history and Kitsuke for fun. But I get that ours is a weird situation and probably not what Ora Lin was referring to in her video.

[@xFinikoxa]

Misrepresentations are everywhere, not obły white vs asian or vs black. polish people are still waiting for the rest of the world to refer to Marie Curie by her full name which is Marie Curie Skłodowska, and stop saying she was french without mentioning her heritage....

[@autumn7143]

So, as a woman who is white, but has native DNA and culture in my life, I don’t like that you’re telling me not to have my culture proud. I don’t look native. My family is Native American, Irish, and Portuguese. I look all Irish, but I’m Native as well. I’m the palest person in my family. I’ve been told I was being wrong wearing native clothing, when my brother is allowed because he has dark skin. You don’t know someone’s culture, someone’s heritage just by looking at them. I look all white, but I’m not. I hate the judgement that I get. I’m shamed for having more recessive genes in my family. Just wearing things of my culture, I’m belittled for being too white. My brother by the same parents, isn’t. Why is it ok just because I’m paler than he is? Just looking at the outside of people you don’t know exactly who they are, or what their culture is. I don’t post things about being part native, because as a child in the eighties, I was beaten up for being too white in native clothing. Doesn’t matter that it had been a reproduction of a garment of my great grandmother’s. So if you’re white, it doesn’t matter if it’s your culture and heritage or not. People are going to judge, because you’re too white to wear that. This was a trigger of horrible memories for me, and facts that still exist. If you’re pasty pale, it doesn’t matter what your culture actually is, you’re not allowed to represent it.

[@Ora_Lin]

I think you do have a right to wear the clothes of your cultural heritage. Im sorry that you’ve had these experiences. I try to always give people the benefit of the doubt in situations where they aren’t *visibly* from a certain culture and try to seek out information somewhere where they talk about their family heritage. Maybe disclosing that information online would be helpful but I know that doesn’t solve the issue of people in person saying mean things. I think the gut reaction of people is understandable given the history and what’s happening today between natives and the white government but that shouldn’t be directed at you.

[@autumn7143]

Yeah, but I’ve been judged and physically abused for trying to show my culture. My Mom told us it wasn’t right for one of us to not be able to show it so we adopted the white norm for my safety. It felt wrong until it became normal. We appropriated white culture. It does go both ways. You said it’s not possible to do that, but your wrong. We lived in a white community and as the pale one of the family it hit me hard that I was the reason we all changed.

[@Ora_Lin]

If you have to take on a cultural so that you won’t be bullied, discriminated against, or even physically assaulted it isn’t appropriation. It’s assimilating with the dominant culture as a means of survival. I’m really sorry you had to go through that❤️

[@autumn7143]

I always felt like I appropriated the culture that wasn’t mine. So I felt called out. It’s just parts of my life.

[@craftlete]

@@autumn7143 Your story was heartbreaking to read for me. I'm sorry you were robbed of the right to embrace your culture because of genetics being as random as they are. I think there are a lot of people in the world today who look "white" but grew up in a family that kept the traditions of their culture alive. And while a gut reaction can't be helped, it seems to me like looking at a person's skin colour and bone structure to judge whether they should be allowed displays of cultural heritage creates additional problems. As seen by this story, it can lead to people stepping away from their traditions even though they didn't want to. (To be clear, it is not my intenion to dipute the message of this video. And I am glad for being shown the more complex means to navigate cultural appreciation and appropriation.)

[@NouriaDiallo]

I appreciate your subtlety in the matter of context. And I understand it works well within the United States, but it doesn't include all situations, world wide. When applied without subtlety, it can deny a people any form of cultural influence. I will give an example. You talk about an hypothetical african traditional dress, (and props for acknowledging there are different cultures in this big continent) which exists, but there are also modern african fashions, thriving, evolving just as much as european or american fashion. If, say, a malian or senegalese fashion designer makes a collection based on his culture, including traditional elements or modern street wear, and present it in the Paris fashion week, selling it in parisian shops, it's for it to be loved, bought, worn. It's for it to be accepted as equal to european culture and fashion. It is not contradictory to the very good point you make that european dress and culture was forced on many people. I do agree with the points you made, but how do we balance that with not allowing other cultures to be marginalized? Oh, and by the way, I said fashion deliberately, because I don't mean it may be worn as a *costume*. If you adopt it in your everyday wardrobe, good for you, but don't you dare treat it as a toy. Also, I don't think it's OK to be outraged on another culture's behalf, because you may not understand the context. When I've seen piles-on on people that had not, in fact, commited cultural appropriation, it was never by the members of the culture that had invited them. It is not helpful.

[@Ora_Lin]

there is absolutely a difference between a costume/historical clothing and modern fashion made for the purpose of mass consumption. If a designer is showing a collection its safe to assume that they want people to wear it. To that end though, that doesn't mean that individual people won't wear it in a way that is disrespectful to the original maker or the culture as whole or that no one of that culture will have a negative reaction to it. In that case I would honor the intent of the original creator and say anyone can wear it if they are doing it respectfully!

[@bonelace111]

There was something Ora Lin pointed out in the video I think might be relevant to this, that if something's commercially available from somebody from a culture or with a given heritage (e.g. modern North American Indigenous beading, Mi'kmaq quillwork, Senegalese or Malian fashion designers as you suggest, Indigenous art being sold from community-run art centres or galleries), it's most likely going to be stuff that is culturally "open" and acceptable for outsiders to wear (respectfully, not as costume, as you say), and I think that's a great way to support diverse creators and put money back into those marginalised communities too. I know of a few sellers of Indigenous designed clothing lines in Australia that label all their items as "Ally friendly" or "Mob/Community only" which takes out all the guesswork (and might be helpful for other marginalised creators trying to navigate that issue to consider?). But it does require a bit of homework on our part as consumers to double check that it's not an outsider to the culture profiting off exploitation or failing to acknowledge the true creators and culture importance of an item - obviously stuff like Indigenous American head-dresses, dream catchers or geometric designs used as prints on fast fashion, or "kimono" or "wabi-sabi" themed stuff being sold by shops in white-majority countries, but maybe less obviously, I've read that many "antique Navajo silver" pieces would have been stolen or traded under duress, and are potentially important heirloom items if descendents/surviving family could only afford to get them back, and a huge number of tourist items (think boomerang or surfboard shaped keychains painted with dots) are sold as examples of "Aboriginal Art" in Australian tourist shops, but are in fact appropriated and/or poorly copied designs painted by underpaid labour in south east Asia with zero acknowledgement or reparations to the artist or communities being ripped off. Supporting a clearly black- or Indigenous- or Asian-owned business (for example) is the ideal there too, but what if it's a community that's not really present in your country, say being sold as fairtrade or something to support communities elsewhere? Somebody white fronting a shop in the West might be an equal partner/external contact approached by someone try to share a commercially appropriate part of their culture with a wider audience/market, or they might be buying stuff on the cheap while on a tax-deductible holiday to somewhere "exotic" and bringing it back to sell as "fair trade" stuff with a hefty profit margin, and we have to get better at asking questions before buying to figure out if they're posing themselves as an "expert" or "gateway" or "patron/saviour" to a particular culture or technique, or if they're just in the business because they were approached by their mate from that place who still wants to spend half their time at home with family and needed a partner with a permanent tax base or translation skills in the location of sale to help with improving their export business (in which case the outsider seller should be deferring to their partner from that culture's knowledge/can name the makers/can suggest ways to get in touch or when they might be around if you want to know more detail about the items/culture). Which I guess goes back to Ora's first couple of points, where is the money going/coming from, and are the original creators/designers being acknowledged (respectfully)? (just some thoughts I had triggered by what you wrote Nouria Diallo, not trying to talk over your points or direct those questions at you specifically!)

[@perrobang8925]

@@Ora_Lin I have another question that ties to this one as well. Since yes, there needs to be a lot of research in traditional hanfu but what about hanyuansu (i hope i got this right) where they modernize hanfu for casual everyday wear? I've even seen the outfits mixed with European designs (from Chinese designers) as well, so I want to know where it draws the line?

[@cactoise2067]

I would also add that if they were going to an event needing to wear traditional clothing and if the family is ok with that, it would be justified. I am viet and i see white people wear ao dais to temple to be respectful during the new year. Then I see people trying to make it look “sexy” and i want to throw a brick at their head.

[@mcrapier3832]

just stumbled on your video searching hanfu styles. looked at your recent videos and saw you had one making a victorian corset. why are you making and wearing victorian style couture when not in a victorian related space and/or without a victorian related person nearby to approve?

[@Ora_Lin]

Victorian refers to a time period in British history, not a culture. That happens to coincide with the time when great Britain was doing a heck of a lot of colonizing… meaning that they were the ones oppressing other cultures and forcing people of other cultures to adopt their culture. I am currently a minority living in a colonized country. (The USA) for me exploring colonial European in American dress history is exploring the dress history of the culture that was forced onto me and my family. as I explained in the video this is not cultural appropriation. If that doesn’t make sense you might want to rewatch the video.

[@goldogwolly]

Ok I know this is a bit off topic but, coming from a Taiwanese person, you do know that Taiwan was colonized by Japan for 50 years and forced to adopt Japanese clothing, right? So regarding wearing Japanese clothing, it's hard to say that there are things you absolutely can't wear. I know this is just a throwaway comparison, but just wanted to add some, er, nuance I guess? My point is the same as yours though, in the big picture: history is convoluted, and the relationship between historical ethnic groups even more so.

[@ZeLeninovoMasoveRizoto]

I generally agree with your points - not with everything, but overall a very good video, and it explains things nicely. However, one thing I disagree with a bit more is whether "white culture" can be appropriated (I SWEAR it's not as bad as it sounds). First, mainstream historical white fashion is absolutely free real estate. So much of that clothing is associated with colonialism and suffering, and given that I make it even though it was never worn here, to say otherwise would be really hypocritical. However, folk dresses, especially of eastern Europe and Caucausus, are a different story - still worn clothing of people that were not considered white for the longest time, oppressed (sometimes to the point of genocide) by majority groups and religions, forced to adopt the western culture and languages after being expelled from their country, and a lot of other nasty stuff... I've seen cheap copies made out of plastic far too many times, and they ignore the ancient symbolism in embroidery, colour meaning, the very specific patterning... All ethnic clothing deserves respect, and it's so little to ask for, even today when we are seen as "equal" by most westerners.

[@emilysmith2784]

I agree completely. Dismissing a culture because it’s people are white is disrespectful. I feel like people dismiss my culture as western and don’t see the differences in European countries but it’s considered racist to group eastern cultures together? French and Spanish cultures are just as different as Chinese and Japanese cultures and shouldn’t just be grouped together as western and white.

[@Ora_Lin]

I absolutely agree with you on that. The idea of whiteness all together is kind of a white supremacist idea. (The idea of grouping together all of the people from Europe under one umbrella here in the US, although it is widely used and accepted) I think a few people have mentioned that in Europe people don’t use the word white unless they are actively white supremacists. If you trace back far enough “white people” here do have separate cultures and clothing and I agree with you that those can be appropriated as well.

[@ZahavaMonet]

First I have to say the idea that "not everything is for me" is very true and sometimes a tough pill to swallow. It's unfortunate but that's something we deal with in all aspects of our lives sometimes in a very real way (like allergies for example) or something more subtle (like rude jokes you can make to people you're not close to). When you can do something physically or financially it's hard to just not because you shouldn't but sometimes, that's just how it is. Your suggestion about partnering with or finding a cultural guide, if you will, to help you navigate cultural appropriation makes sense to me and I've heard it many times before. However, as someone who has unwillingly been that on many occasions I don't think it works as well in practice as it does in theory. I haven't not yet made any KZbin videos but partnering in that situation seems a lot easier because you're looking for someone else who is equally publicly visible or at least has a desire to be. In regular life for example, a person who just wants to integrate hanfu, or tribal inspired tattoos, or headwraps into their life, how does that person find a cultural guide? I'm asking genuinely because I don't know how you would recommend they do that other than asking in forums or commenting on videos. Is that the way? From this video it seems like this guide needs to be in person and I think that's a tall order. Circling back to being a cultural guide. I went to a majority white school (a VAST majority white school) I've been an "ambassador" for my people and my culture for a lot of my life and, honestly, I'm tired of it. I get that people have questions and want answers but as a regular person living my own life I don't want to feel obligated to teach them, to direct them appropriately, to do all that work basically. Plus, I'm *not* an ambassador for my people, I'm one person who has an opinion. I personally would prefer sometimes if they just did the research online and left me out of it. I have things to do and I don't always want a stranger or even a friend to open a discourse about my culture and how they can respectfully partake. It's not that I never want to do that but I've just done it so many times. I imagine other people too might get tired of answering the same questions multiple times. I'm interested to see how other people feel about this as well. I get that rants are not always perfectly executed and fully formed when made, however, I'm struggling with your point that minorities are not a monolith (which, of course they're not) and that a person who wants to appreciate the culture should find a person of that culture to give them the okay, as it were. Those seem to contradict to me. That as well as personally not always wanting to guide someone into my culture. I don't want "Find an (insert race friend) to tell you if you can do this cultural thing" to be the main point people go with. I don't know what the answer is, I think some of it is here but other parts might not be as helpful.

[@Ora_Lin]

I definitely don’t claim to have all of the answers, but I’m with you on not wanting or feeling qualified to be a cultural guide for people. You are under no obligation to do that for anyone. I guess I’m hoping that my biggest Takeaway for people is that they need to reevaluate their intentions and reasoning for wanting to partake in cultures that are not their own, because the people who are just looking for a token ______ friend to tell them that it’s OK to wear something is probably doing it for the wrong reasons… whereas someone who is actually genuinely interested in learning about a culture and supporting its people are going to want to do lots of research on their own.

[@Lambecht]

Very wonderful video! Thank you for taking the time to discuss and make this.

[@HazarielAtelier]

Thank you for making this video. I learned a lot, you are amazing.

[@datafoxy]

I did not know the story of Mulan until I was an adult. My Chinese family never told the story to me. While it is very diluted from the original tale it was great seeing Chinese people in an animated movie and it was so nice to see. I wish there was more Chinese details in it, they should offer more context via the video. I am glad you made this video to tell people what is going on. I hope people learned something.

[@nancywillaert5129]

Also thank you for sharing your views on everything, it’s good to learn and know more.

[@marissahartshorn7049]

I personally would love to meet and speak to sewists (edited from 'costumers') From other cultures and ethnicities that could share the history of their cultures garments and construction, just purely from an academic viewpoint. I'd love to see the difference between traditional Greek sewing Vs traditional Chinese, and the different tools used. I'd love to see the craftsmanship of a real kimono in person, just to see the way it's woven and dyed, constructed etc. I'd also love to see how Native American/Indigenous cultures do their beading. I haven't found much of that here on KZbin, and if anyone knows good channels, or are themselves willing to share that kind of thing please let me know. I'm still a beginner but I'm very interested in learning about anything and everything, and hearing what different people have to say about the issues they're facing with things like cultural appropriation/racism. P.S Ora, I love you and your channel.

[@nataliestanchevski4628]

Hey Marissa, there is a gender neutral term for someone who sews that is becoming more common: sewist. I can't speak for all people, but it's the word that I use and I hope it's useful to you as an alternative.

[@marissahartshorn7049]

@@nataliestanchevski4628 Thank you! I wrote said comment after work and a glass of wine sans a functioning brain cell. I'll edit my comment now 😂

[@melissac8006]

This video might be a good example of what you're looking for: "What Chinese Women Wore in the 1920s, and How to Make Its Iconic Black Skirt" by Claire Yixuan Zhang kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZfWfouil9epiMk KZbin recommended it to me recently and I wish the algorithm would feed me more stuff like this!

[@daseineschaf]

Thanks for making this video! I think (/hope) I learned something...

[@jennieeveleighlamond]

I have a question that I hope isn't offensive to anyone, and I would genuinely appreciate any feedback on it; how would persons from a cultural group which is a minority in North America feel about a person of mostly Caucasian descent wanting to learn a culturally significant traditional musical instrument? Not for the objective of performing, but simply because of a love for the musical style and sound of the instrument and the joy of playing music?

[@cayman144]

What you say around the 10 minute mark is how I explain it every time. People always ask me about making clothes from other cultures. Like, no. I won't do that. It isn't for me. I am not going to disrespect people, their histories, and cultures. I think for me things get difficult when cultures are mixed. I have Caribbean heritage. There are links to Asia, Americas, Africa, and Europe. It is difficult to separate what belongs to whom. My latest project, still on the research phase, is about cultural and national dress of Spanish and English West Indies. My first item I wanted to make is a headwrap. Many African slaves wore headwraps because it was common among their tribes. Some others did not. But then things get complicated when women had to legally cover their hair. The traditional textiles were unavailable. So they get new ones. A common textile, Madras, was highly sought after. It comes from India. There are huge Indian influences in the West Indies, especially on the English colonies. Long story short, I went into a research spiral. For colonized folk, where does one culture start and end? These are all my cultures. I don't mean to say that I am Indian or African or European, but I often question the origins of some garments and if I should even make them because most seem to built from the exploitation of groups I am not a part of. Are we intertwined so deeply that this is my culture too? Or is my culture just appropriation? Is my whole history built on exploitation and trauma? When does a garment, textile, or craft belong to another group? Is it mine or ours? These are the existential questions I wrestle with when working with my cultures' historical garments. Nothing in my history belongs to one people. It is truly all appropriated. But is the appropriation really my culture? Or over the centuries, did new meanings and traditions make an independent culture? I am not sure if my point is coming across. But for colonized folk, especially those who are descendants of slaves and exploited peoples, our culture is questioned. Who am I, what is my history, what do I become? Each piece is built on more colonized pain. Does this pain belong to everyone? Can I make something that was created out of the pain of millions of people spanning multiple continents only because that was the story for centuries? Is my culture enough on its own or are we still grasping to create our identity.

[@leticiabernardes8203]

As a Brazilian, I feel your confusion with mixed heritage

[@GreenMartha]

Thank you for articulating the nuances and implications so.clearly !

[@ShannonMakes]

Thank you so much for talking about how important it is to understand the *modern* conditions of the cultures being potentially appropriated. I think we (and I say "we" as a privileged white person) tend to get so caught up in the historical aspect that we can sometimes forget the flip side of that coin, which is the rampant racism and xenophobia that exists today in many many countries and communities.

[@hsama]

Good thing I got here before the comments got closed. I learned more things now. 😌 I was definitely thinking on the shallow part of the thing.

[@understatedchuckle]

Thank you for this, so necessary.

[@bunny-vj6qe]

im aware that my concern is not really related to the actual topic of the video, but when you mentioned raya and the last dragon was "good" i couldn't help being upset. i'm aware you said this was your impression from others but i just wanted to point out that, even just at first, you'll notice that you said it was based on "south east asian" culture: consider how southeast asian countries are different from each other and have their own cultures. raya the last dragon combines them, and skims through them. as someone born canadian, but ethnically vietnamese (as well as chinese) i dont think raya the last dragon *was* good representation and i just want to clear that up for anyone who might see this video and assume that it is. they took so many cultures and did them no justice, you cannot combine chinese, japanese, and korean culture together (generalizing it as One) and call that good representation, this means you also cannot do the same with southeast asian cultures. disney also made the movie unavailable for sea countries, which like? self-explanatory. the casting: a majority of the cast was east asian, yet again reinforcing the lack of representation of southeast asian people. the problem we see often is, we get limited asian rep, and the asian rep we do get is usually just east asian rep (and so far i believe that it's many repeats of the *same* east asian actors). a good overview of the problems in the movie: www.fantasy-animation.org/current-posts/orientalism-and-raya-and-the-last-dragon-2021 i personally haven't watched the movie, because i refused to watch it. we had enough information before the movie was even released that it wasn't good rep. it's just disney being insincere/performative with their representation because diversity is such a big topic rn and they want money.

[@Ora_Lin]

Thank you so much for pointing this out. I'm sorry that I miss represented you (and I'm sure a lot of other people) I can definitely seen the harmful stereotyping and homogenization of multiple different culture there. I won't be using the movie as an example going forward.

[@SnappyDragon]

This is PERFECT. You're laying out a really clear framework for what questions people can ask themselves if they're unsure whether something is appropriate or not. I think many white people talk about appropriation in terms of "don't wear this one specific thing" (probably because that's easier than, y'know, challenging our privilege). The list of "this one specific thing" is going to be endless, though! We have to learn how to tell the difference. Also . . . yeah, I don't know why people don't understand that Some Things Are Not For You. What are we, people who think we're entitled to the entire world? Oh wait . . .

[@Ora_Lin]

Oh wait is right

[@alissaimregeis]

Thank you!

[@jackiejames4551]

Thank you, this needs to be said on all platforms.

[@lovelydeath04]

I do appreciate the talk around appropriation from ALL minority lenses, not just my own.

[@nataliestanchevski4628]

I hear you and I appreciate this learning moment.

[@historiansrevolt4333]

In a lot of ways it comes down to the power dynamics. If you are taking from a group in power in the culture, it's not typically harmful. But if you are from the group in power taking from a group not in power, harm is often the default, no matter the intent. There are exceptions, but that's the framework I work from. Where it gets tricky is styles that were appropriated in the past and bacame part of Western fashion. Those are less cut and dry.

[@kimlam5920]

THANK YOU SO MUCH! You’re wording exactly the reason why I don’t feel comfortable with people loving our culture. I haven’t thought about it this way, so this is an eye opener. Pls continue making videos like this (:

[@Feelicitasy]

This is SO IMPORTANT!! "I don't understand why it's so hard to understand" is a big mood.

[@Ora_Lin]

I really don’t tho😭

[@craftingweirdo6498]

I have a question. Does your opinion differ with cosplay (if they dont imitate features with makeup and only use the clothes). For example cosplayers who make demon slayer cosplays often wear kimono, because thats the only thing those characters wear.

[@Ora_Lin]

I don’t personally do cosplay and I can’t say I have a fully formed opinion there but I would ask you to really think about the implications of a costume and the context around it before wearing a costume.

[@SarahBent]

I think it's important, as Ora says, to take context into account, particularly, the origin of the character. For instance, wearing religious garb etc. and how historical the clothing itself is.

[@annamelendez8276]

I think that for Cosplay it would be great if more people around the globe followed the Japanese trend of not wearing the costume outside the venue where the event takes place (not even when going to or from the venue) to avoid offending unaware bystanders. That way, by wearing the costume in a controlled environment, everyone around you knows that you are in cosplay and that you are not actually wearing it as a traditional costume but as a costume of a fictional character.

[@elmohead]

I would also extend this to modernized versions of these clothings. I'm talking about hanfu reform styles, kimono lingerie, etc.

[@Akatsukispion]

I have a very honest question. To preface this I am not a minority in my country, my first language is not English, I do not live in North America and I am not part of the historical sewing group (I usually watch these videos for fun bc of the sewing and information they provide). I am not trying to challenge any of the views given in the video, definitely not. I just have a problem with understanding who is white. And not in the sense of who is should and shouldnt to do certain things. As said I am not based in America where it seems rather easy to say 'as a decedent of Europeans' as white people. But in Europe itself I find that this distinction doesn't work really all that much. Again not towards Asia or Africa as a whole or the descendents of people from places like these, but the inner workings of the people that have always lived in Europe. White doesn't give you the privilege you want if you aren't the right shade of white or have the right hair and eye color in Europe. So the distinction between white and non white doesn't really work here. And here is my problem: with the notion of 'you can't appropriate white culture if you live in a majority white country' it doesn't seem to work in Europe bc of the rather small place with so many different cultures all of them per the American definition counting as white. When talking about these issues it always irks me that these nomenclatures don't seem to fit. Is this just me not understanding things or is there an issue that just works different in different places even though they seem to fall into the same category and therefore need different terms? As said I am really trying to learn and the language barrier does make it harder sometimes. I am not trying to make this unrelated to the topic in the video, I honestly don't understand. Could someone help or even just point me in the general direction?

[@craftingweirdo6498]

I just wanted to add that in europe whiteskinned people do have privilege. The privilege is far less obvious bc there are far less minority group people, but BiPoC people still get controlled by police far more often and have other problems coming from racism.

[@Akatsukispion]

@@craftingweirdo6498 Oh yes definitely! That's not what I trying to say. More so that even if considering white by American standards you could still face discrimination based on your skin tone in Europe because you are not the right kind of white. For example just look at the animosity between Northern and Southern Italians.

[@Ann-jh3kj]

Whiteness as a label does tend to mean different things between north america and Europe. I myself as a (non-white) a American didn't understand that until recently. So even though people in European countries and the U.S. could both look white, they wouldn't both view themselves as white. In the U.S. I tend to see white used more as a label to exclude people who aren't white rather than a solid set of characteristics. And from what I've heard people in European countries don't use 'white' as like a group label (unless they're like fascists?). Idk if that helps clear it up a bit.

[@SewBiased]

The best way to understand cultural appropriation is: using a culture that is not your own without input from, or benefit to that culture. Example of doing it right: wearing jewellery or clothing from another culture that is made and designed by someone from that culture and is being sold to the general public Doing it wrong: buying something "inspired by" another culture, made and designed by someone not from that culture, where that person profits from using a culture other than their own. Yes, this applies to Europeans, and anyone really. No one should be wearing another person's culture as a costume, and if you're wearing parts of it, it should be designed by, and profit the people from that culture. The final thing is that some parts of a culture are closed practices: they can only be done/worn/taught by people in that group. If you are told that something is closed, you should never try to gain access through any means.

[@SarahBent]

Everyone belongs to many different 'in groups'. One of them is based on 'white' or 'black' or whatever. Within Europe as a whole that group of 'white' is further broken down into 'Polish' or 'Romani' or 'English'. And there are more privileges for some of those groups vs. others. But 'white' is still a group that stands as more privileged than 'African' or 'Morrocan' or 'Middle Eastern'. So when talking about the world as a whole, we often short cut to saying 'white' or 'of European descent' to talk about those larger race categories. Just because smaller categories of 'Hungarian' or ' French' still exist doesn't mean that those who are of European descent (which means of the people who are from Europe historically) aren't still part of a larger group. Hopefully this makes a little sense.

[@bernicesanders3148]

Should Asians not wear jeans based on your arguments

[@Ora_Lin]

nope. jeans are a white colonial and capitalist garment created during the California gold rush for largely white people to get lucky and live the American dream. Jeans are produced largely by exploited BIPOC labor so yes by my logic Asians and all other BIPOC can wear jeans.

[@chickee041]

Thank you. Your video, as well as the comments & questions of others, has helped me to answer my question "What's the difference? Do I not get to appreciate another culture?" Coming from the lens of a huge love for all human beings based in my personal spiritual journey with Jesus, I wish to respect other cultures - especially in their cuisines - while I indulge (is that the word I'm looking for?) in what is freely available for me to enjoy.

[@Ora_Lin]

You can absolutely enjoy other cultures without appropriating them. Things like going to restaurants run by bipoc is a great way to support them! As long as you aren’t trying to gain any kind of capital (money or social capital) from it and aren’t claiming to be an authority you should be good 😊

[@elsa_g]

I really appreciate you making this video because it goes over how the context matters and can change things, and brings social media/the audience into that. I recognise this is not a simple topic and I still struggle with some questions when things move out of "making the clothing yourself" and into "purchasing the clothing from an artist/creator of that culture". I hope this isn't too off-topic, if it is feel free to delete this comment. Miah Grace recently put out a video "Breaking down Quannah Chasinghorse's iconic met gala look! | native costumer reacts" in which she talks about how, given the "American" theme, she would have liked to see more native looks, especially anything native designed or styled. At 15:37 minutes she mentions that all the native artists she knows of who sell their products have statements saying something along the lines of "If you're not native, please wear this. Please tell people that I exist and that I made this and you like it." This is a different context than the one you brought up in your video, the example you brought up has a much more private and implicitly limited permission to wear something. But I do wonder, if a white person showed up in clearly native-designed-or Asian-designed-clothing to the met gala, would that make some people of that ethnicity hurt or even just uncomfortable? If that white person talks about the designer, does that make up for it/balance it out, or does the image speak louder to still cause that hurt? If they area wearing it out and about on a normal day, where there's no context of crediting the designer like there might be in an Instagram post or at a gala, is that worse? Is there any way to balance the desire of some artists of a group to expand their art's audience so it's not niche or easily overlooked, with the hurt that seeing white people in another culture's clothes can cause in others of that same group? I think this is a complicated issue. Regarding people making historical clothes for themself from another culture, I totally agree with you. I also think that Nami Sparrow has a point in her recent video on the peacock dress (which is not directly Indian fashion but was definitely exploitative of India in its original form), that (I'm paraphrasing) because the recreated dress would be worn/presented in Western spaces, weight should be given to Indian voices from those spaces, perhaps overriding the "okay" from Indians being paid to help make the dress. But I think it gets most complicated when it's clothing solely designed and produced by someone from a culture, with an intended wider commerical market and cultural impact. If you have any thoughts on that I would love to hear them, but also I don't expect to put any obligation on you to answer them. It's just some recent thoughts I've had trying to reconcile multiple perspectives I've heard from people affected by the issue of cultural appropriation. And I encourage people to check out the KZbinrs I mentioned if you haven't already and hear from them yourself!

[@Ora_Lin]

Thank you for this. Those are all really great questions, I don't have all the answers but here are some of my thoughts. I have talked to both Nami and Miah recently and I love the content that they create. It seems like you've already come to this conclusion on your own, but to reiterate it, there definitely is a deference between the kind of appropriation I'm talking about and things made by BIPOC for the purpose of mass consumption/wear of people of all different ethnic backgrounds. That pretty much falls into the ~wearing it in public with people of that culture/background~ that I talked about, as long as the people wearing it respect the pieces and the culture. As far as if people will be hurt by by white people being dressed in clearing native, asian or other non white styles? undoubtedly yes. There will be people who are triggers by it. However people often make exceptions for cultural appreciation that has appropriative qualities because they feel that the positive qualities outweigh the negative ones and I can definitely see an argument for it. Some people feel that the movie Moana is overall positive representation even though it was mostly white people who profited from that movie. Now I don't feel that I'm personally qualified to make that call, but I do think its something to think about. Understanding what things, and when, things cause harm, is the best way to be able to prevent it. I want to highlight the part where I said if it is clear that the person is taking affirmative action to support the people and the culture, in addition to understanding the history and the historical context, that minimizes harm they cause regardless of the race of the person. If I saw I white celebrity who had said something racist and ever taken accountability for it, wearing the clothing of another culture I would 100% take that as appropriation but if a celebrity is constantly advocating for minorities on social media and learning about different cultures I'd be much more likely to see it as appreciation. I have many more thoughts on this but I'll leave it at that for now☺️

[@bonelace111]

I'm very much a white person so definitely not the best voice to look to on this RE what's okay or not, but you might fnid it interesting to read Nouria Diallo's comment above that I replied to about the difference between traditional/historical/culturally significant or protected items (often "closed" cultural elements not appropriate for outsiders) vs. modern commercially available fashion featuring "open" cultural elements from ethnically diverse designers that will obviously be influenced by their culture/heritage. We might appreciate both to look at, but only purchasing/wearing from one will actually support and uplift the contemporary community that's been marginalised (but the practice is still vulnerable to being disrespectful or treated like costume). I might be wrong on this too, but I imagine purchasing, say, a modern piece of jewellery/beadwork from a contemporary Indigenous designer, or a traditionally embroidered/woven/printed item of modern clothing from a designer of that culture, and wearing it with your usual styles, especially when it's been expressly labelled or marketed as ally- or outsider-friendly (and then taking every opportunity when someone compliments it to say "I bought it from So-and-so who's a Such-and-such nation artist! Go check them out!") is much more on the acceptable celebrating and supporting end of cultural appreciation than putting together a set of certain ethnicity-themed things and only wearing them together as your "Asian appreciation" or "Indigenous appreciation" outfit, which would make even me as someone entirely unaffected hella uncomfortable. Hopefully that's not out of line as a suggestion/thought!

[@paola_la]

Thx for sharing. I´m trying to educate myself and now I understand this problematic better. Greetings from mexico

[@nova_no_va_]

Hi! i have some questions about the video if that's okay. For context, i am a spanish nb person, born and raised in spain, and have been living my whole life here. I have been studying historical clothing for a few years now, and would like to learn about and wear some asian historical clothing, but i don't want to hurt anyone while doing it. If i understood it correctly, as long as i wear it in a non social media setting, with the correct methods for that piece, and understanding both the historical and modern context, credit both the culture in wich it was born, as well as the people who make it, and not use closed practices clothing or accesories and not gain any profit from it, it would be ok? If it isn't okay to do so even in those conditions, i will not wear it, even for cosplay, because as it was said in the video, it wouldn't be my place to do so. Would study and learn about it, but not wear it be ok? Would making and/or owning the pieces without wearing them be ok? Would taking inspiration from it for modern clothing for my personal use (as long as the specific conditions i said before are followed) be ok? Thank you so much if anyone takes the time to read and answer this! ✨

[@OpusElenae]

Hi Marta. I think probably the best thing for right now would be to just study the clothing without wearing it. I understand that it's super beautiful, and I understand wanting to partake in something you find so appealing and wonderful, but as someone who isn't Asian, who (from what you wrote, I could be wrong) wasn't invited to take part in cultural exchange, this is something that probably isn't for you right now. Now, as you learn and study, and maybe become familiar with people of that descent in community and appreciation, they may invite you take part in that cultural exchange (ie: being invited to an Indian wearing and the family invites you to wear a sari/etc). But that's something that you can't invite yourself into. Right now it seems like you're looking for 1. permission from an Asian person to do the thing that you really want to do and 2. looking for a loophole that will allow you to wear the thing you want to wear. So I'd invite you to sit with why it's so important for you to want to wear those things, despite this entire video talking about why non-Asian people wearing Asian clothes is problematic.

[@nova_no_va_]

@@OpusElenae thank you so much for your input!! I didn't realize i was doing that, but honestly you are totally right. I will continue to study it, but not use it. Thanks for poniting it out. And to everyone, i'm sorry for headbutting into the topic of the video with my personal concerns precisely about why this isn't ok. That was selfish, and won't be happening again. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[@OpusElenae]

@@nova_no_va_ Thank you for hearing me! We learn by asking, and I'm really thank fun and glad that we were able to have a good chat about it; I know SO MANY people who wouldn't be able to do that. You can always talk to me about stuff like this; either on my videos or on IG (my DMs are open).

[@nova_no_va_]

@@OpusElenae thank you! If thst's ok i'd love to keep chatting about this, may i dm you on ig?

[@OpusElenae]

@@nova_no_va_ sure that’s fine, my user name is the same

[@amd57432]

Interesting rant. Educational and thoughtful.

[@TheIntuitiveArtificer]

I think it is an excellent point you made about "there are things that are not for me and there are things not for you." So often I feel like we (white people) want it all. We want to indulge in whatever bits of different cultures we want, when in reality we have just developed a fantasy of what those cultures are like which can be completely inaccurate and harmful to those of that heritage. Thanks for the rant :)

[@Lavender_Louis]

YEESSS THISSS! THANK YOU!

[@Ora_Lin]

Edit: all comments are now held for review so if you leave a comment (regardless of what it says) it will not show up for everyone until I approve it which will be rare. I’m leaving the comment on for now, any hate comments will be deleted and if things aren’t staying on track here the comments will be turned off. Xoxo Ora (they/them) Edit: this is not gatekeeping. Y’all should know this already. Pls stop mislabeling as such. Thank you😊

[@OpusElenae]

Thank you for this Ora. The SCA has a huge appropriation problem. Lots of people like to give themselves permission to make and wear Asian historical clothing and it's... yikes.

[@thatterigirl]

I feel your anger, frustration, and your pain. Cultural appropriation is an expression of a lack of empathy and thoughtfulness, simply put.

[@johnmcgrew7128]

I Love You

[@undeadgoat]

I think that it's actually IMPOSSIBLE to do this kind of violence to white people, especially in North America, because definitionally whiteness created/joined by severing a connection to one's own culture and history. And unfortunately many people fill this emotional void with cultural appropriation because they lack the empathy to understand that others can be hurt in a way that they themselves cannot. As far as "white people in Asia" goes I would say, please don't give us a blanket pass, because run with that "permission" when in fact what you are saying is that context and audience matter and there's no hard and fast rule but err on the side of caution.

[@Ora_Lin]

Thank you so much for pointing that out

[@Lucky-qd6nh]

Dior just culturally appropriating Chinese Mamian Qun

[@rebeccacuthbertson1271]

You are more than 100% correct. End stop.