Watches, brand positioning and why brands cant "be just like Rolex".

#NSOW
For your awareness some things about me and the channel.
I'm an engineer who's into human behavior, loves the ideas behind art and sees watches as a mix of science, craft, art, business, history, technology, philosophy, and psychology. As a result, my videos cover all that ground. (Oh, and I overthink everything).
In my opinion a $15 Casio or a $50 G-Shock are probably the only real tool watches and pretty much everything else is jewelry. So as we are talking about jewelry I think style is substance and I tend to believe history, brand, style, design, execution, and aesthetics are more important than specs. A dull design with a good movement is a dull watch, and an exciting design with an average movement is an exciting watch.
To be clear, I hate the expression "it's just a watch". If you got this far, watches matter to you and represent a bridge between us - dismissing them as unimportant seems wrong and disrespectful. That doesn't mean we can't and don't have fun, it just means we should not be totally mindless of others.
I'm a watch collector and curator - I like my collections to have a theme. My collection has several themes:
1. Vintage Alpina watches
2. Travel watches (GMT. UTC, world timers, home times, dual times)
3. Seiko Prospex dive watches
4. Breitling chronographs
5. Stuff I just really like.
I don't do wrist checks so if you want to see what I'm wearing, my collection, and other random bits of my life check out my Instagram:
@not.so.obvious.watches / not.so.obvious.watches
You can email me at [e-mail]
virtually all the music you'll hear on my channel I get from BenSound - www.bensound.com/
also, my stock images and videos tend to come from either snappa (snappa.com/app) or pexels (www.pexels.com/)

[@DA_Karas]

This is easily my favorite watch channel.

[@PeteMcConvill]

thanks so much

[@GoTerpsGoBlue]

As a brand marketer…I eat this type of analysis up. Thanks Pete…well done

[@PeteMcConvill]

Much appreciated!

[@Coco-bx2tt]

This is the best watch content on the internet please keep it up

[@KrisBaca]

This is required viewing product people, even if they're not interested in watches - great job Pete!

[@watchenthusiastlondon]

Love your channel. Very interesting analysis, Pete. The categories you present arguably reflect my mood, or the reason why I reach for one or other of my watches on any given day. So, whilst I understand that brands might not overlap ‘luxury & premium’ or ‘prestige & connoisseur’, I think that on occasions, I do.

[@WillCharlesworth]

Finally making sense of the madness of my mind and my passion towards certain brands and watches. Thank you Pete!

[@PeteMcConvill]

My pleasure!

[@Nichomachus]

Great analysis and very well explained! Love the example of the moonswatch; luxury is usually expensive but it doesn’t have to be. Also the Rolex / Patek / CW ads you show back up the story perfectly 👍

[@ads-porewealth96]

Do more vids pete, love your channel. Also, would love to hear your views on the new jlp Polaris geographic. You’re the man to speak on it!

[@borassictime918]

Well analysed Pete, not seen this categorisation before but your version makes alot of sense 👍. “They have really, really high marketing costs. It costs alot to be a prestige brand.” Indeed it does. And the buyer pays for all the marketing costs and more, including having to buy other brands to ‘qualify’ for being allowed to join a waitlist for the ‘Prestige’ brand. It’s plainly untrue for AP to say “It takes more than money to wear the Royal Oak” because anyone with enough cash can pay to queue-jump and buy an RO, one way or another, and if you don’t have the money you can’t buy one. In effect put simply; prestige = money.

[@PeteMcConvill]

thanks

[@MrKanjidude]

Good categorization. Makes sense to me. Personally I am all about Prestige, and don't really care about specs, microbrands or super complicated complications. Most watch youtubers seem to cater to the Premium segment, although I suspect they do that mostly for practical reasons.

[@PeteMcConvill]

I agree (not that you are all about prestige - I have no idea there 😕) but that we each have a "heatmap" or "homebase" where we tend to draw our watches from. Personally Im in the connossier/luxury corner - its all about the feels and finding stuff others dont for me. I partially agree that a lot of youtubers tend to cover the premium segment - I think thats a very "easy" space to cover and hence a place a lot of people will see 'value' in putting in the time to run a channel. I say "partially" because I think the "prestige" segment would run them a close race for most popular - god, there's a whole slew of channel that I'd put under the banner of rolextube.

[@tods.9947]

This is a very good analysis of the watch conceptual concept space. It reinforces my thesis that Rolex is an outstanding marketing company that makes a very good watch.

[@robynsjp]

Very interesting, and I led brand position workshops with Young & Rubicam years ago with all the graphics, inner values, outer values, core proposition, etc. Still ... my favourite watches are 1960s icons that take me back to childhood memories. This means a 1960s Rolex Submariner but not a 2024 one. Same with my 1960s Speedy, and not a 2024 one. Or the 1963 Seamaster300 on my wrist. So, Doctor, where do you rank my multibrand pieces ? 😀

[@PeteMcConvill]

Ah, when you get into vintage it gets really tricky because the brands deliberate positioning is recedes a little and the wider community starts to impose their own. That said, Im also loathe to try and say why one person chose the watches they did - as I said brand positioning is kind of like an AI answer, what is most likely to work for the most amount of people - how applicable that is to any individual? 🤷‍♂️

[@GolLeeMe]

I am not indifferent to your thoughts, and the tool kit is a good way of looking at brands. So there is that and I get it. With respect, I also get a sense of ‘wealth’ in the PP ads you have shown. To me the ads are unmistakable in that regard. Perhaps thats just me, or that it’s just too difficult to position or capture a brand into a single category, but it’s not just quality as I see it. What about the positioning of Japanese brands? How about Grand Seiko for instance?

[@chrishoyt7548]

Pete, thank you for the breakdown of the marketing report and your insights. I look forward to your Breitling review. Regards, Chris

[@AH-sn9sl]

Hope everything’s ok, Pete. We’re missing you!

[@SuperHemiv8]

The Seiko homage watches often use Seiko movements (or better non-Seiko movements) and then build better components and cases around them for a third of the cost. They are better watches but my pulse does not change looking at them and the same is true for higher end clones. Thank you for adding reason to my emotional reaction. I'll keep looking at homages hoping to feel something but expect that my next purchase will be a brand name (again!).

[@Amplitudeproblem]

Really great episode - keep up the great work!

[@PeteMcConvill]

Thanks, will do!

[@kingflum]

Great topic, thank you. MoonSwatch as luxury is an interesting one…

[@PeteMcConvill]

Its not obvious but I think it scans - its also why all those people comparing it unfavorably to much more "worthy" watches like Orient Makos and microbrands completely missed the point of the entire release and also totally misjudged how popular it would be and for how long.

[@TheArkwhaler]

Is Sinn luxury, or connoisseur? What about glashutte original? I would argue Sinn is connoisseur and GO is as well with more of a luxury bent. What are your thoughts?

[@PeteMcConvill]

Id agree, I think Sinn is connoisseur and like a lot of Germans will be down the premium end, so perhaps in that little shared bit. GO would be at the other end, in the overlap between connoisseur and luxury.

[@urbanbroccoli]

@@PeteMcConvill for sure. GO's current brand message is "Proud to be the Original", very much about finding the watch that resonates with and complements your personality and lifestyle. All about the "feels", as you say. And basically unknown outside watch enthusiast circles; thus "connoisseur" 😂

[@Adi031978]

Your Moonswatch example was an interesting one. That is has halmarks of an luxury item, without necessarily the price tag. Your prestige tier I found a bit strange. Somehow the examples confuse me. Within the watch community I am unsure how much inherent prestige Rolex or Richard Mille carry. And outside the community I feel that nearly nobody will be able to answer who or what AP is. Your description of what this segment should represent I get, just the examples I find tricky

[@PeteMcConvill]

To understand prestige remember the watch community doesnt matter. Check out a recent Hodinkee thing about watches at the Monaco Historic event - lots of stuff but Rolex, AP and RM were the main players by far. Among the normies that buy watches these are definately the status markers.

[@Adi031978]

@@PeteMcConvill While I agree with your premise, I still maintain that an AP does not fall into this category. At least here in central/western europe you can wear such a watch anywhere and people will think of them as just another shopping mall watch. People know Rolex, if you push they might also come up with Breitling or Omega. The whole rest of pricey watches just does not exist. RM is a bit of an anomaly due to at least sports fans having some knowledge of its existence. Are there events at which people with a lot of money gather? Sure. Will you meet watches from AP there? Absolutely. Does this translate into prestige? No.

[@PeteMcConvill]

@@Adi031978 from what Ive seen AP is definately in that category. I was chatting to a watch guy in london a little while ago on this topic and he noted that amongst the london money traders rolex had been replaced by AP. Im seeing the same here amongst some professions, where once I saw rolex I now see AP. Look on line at the people that "graduate" from rolex, they routinely move to AP. Prestige only matters with the people you compare yourself too - so in thinking of people that might consider AP a prestige brand the only people that matter are people spending that kind of money - they dont care what people like me think - they barely acknowledge my existance.

[@Adi031978]

@@PeteMcConvill however if I qualify prestige by declaring that only people that spend the same amounts on watches matter, then every watch brand is in the pestige group. Still, I would claim that a Moonswatch brings you a higher prestige than Royal Oak.

[@rickfowler3710]

Having your pushers fall off in a few weeks isn't my idea of luxury

[@pirouka]

Shame it happened. But this is why watches are under warranty, right ?

[@tiempodesobrahn]

talking about complications who is asking for this

[@PeteMcConvill]

Im always fascinated by comments like this - just what are you hoping will happen?

[@tiempodesobrahn]

@@PeteMcConvill precisely... nothing, cheers!

[@PeteMcConvill]

@@tiempodesobrahn well, thanks for the engagement, every comment is a good comment.

[@verynormalman]

I really suggest you read the original report. This man has made false equivocations and assumptions. He hasn't really understood the quite basic report. And most importantly, each consumer has their own starting point, and their own personal analysis of the market. And using this report to understand the watch market was not particularly apt. He also likes the sound of his own voice I think.

[@wargamingrefugee9065]

You repeatedly call a blog a "report", then say McConvill is guilty of "false equivocations". LMFAO!

[@neil4701]

What a bizarre and unsubstantiated series of accusations.

[@verynormalman]

​@@neil4701Bizarre and unsubstantiated? I give a reasoned reply. Can't you make a proper point?

[@neil4701]

@@verynormalman 1) what are the "false equivocations and assumptions"? 2) What hasn't he "understood"? 3) He mentioned the fact that each person has their own personal perspective of the market... 4) Why is using this report to understand the market "not particularly apt"? In otherwise, please substantiate...

[@verynormalman]

OK. Neil. We'll have to do this one by one. Let's start at the beginning. He talks about how the market misunderstands the move by Swatch Group, to market the MoonSwatch. He said this led to people making incorrect predictions. Please talk to me about this? And justify this man's statement. When you've had a go I'll tell you my thoughts.