We can't handle flawed characters anymore...

[@anthonywheeler2082]

"Trauma doesn't make you a better person, it makes you harder to deal with." As someone who's dealing with my own trauma in therapy, I 100% agree with this.

[@skulliebythesea]

Definitely something that needs to be more widely accepted

[@artisticpigeon]

I completely agree and relate, it's a shame to see it both be overly victimized and demonized at times..

[@EspeonaSparkle]

Same!!!

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

Yeah the idea that trauma makes you better is a weird idea I can't stand. It's almost implying that the people who hurt you did a good thing by traumatizing you. Eugh.

[@LuckyPigeon1111]

I disagree. It doesn't make you hard to deal with.

[@viral4983]

Valentino for me, his VA is hot, his design is eyecandy, I LOVE how hes written, pure villain, but complex, easily manipulated, how his voice changes depending on who he talks to and his mood. But holy hell I cannot wait until he’s killed off, i will scream and laugh and celebrate

[@skulliebythesea]

love this!

[@zaqvkn]

real

[@trika91]

He’s a ‘love to hate’ type of character. You hate him because of his actions towards a main character and how despicable he can be, but you can’t help but be entertained by said despicableness and him chewing the scenery. He’s like an 90s Disney villain (like Ursula, Hades, Scar, or Frollo); he’s so entertaining and sometimes quotable, but you also feel satisfied/cheer when he gets his comeuppance and is defeated.

[@viral4983]

@@trika91 exactly! Like I LOVE his character, but that doesn’t mean that I excuse or like his actions. I also find that people are very hypocritical about Valentino fans, especially extreme Alastor fans. The ones who go “IF YOU LIKE HIM YOU ARE OK WITH RAPE!!” Who then block me when I ask if they are ok with cannibalism and serial murder or go “nuh uh”

[@theultimitelifeform8548]

The thing that really irks me about Valentino is that everyone hates him for what he does to Angel. But then will do a complete 180 and be like “oh my god!!! Val and Vox are so cute together!!! XD”

[@melodicaheart415]

It’s bc ppl are sooo uncomfortable with grey areas, they see not perfectly good, and they think “evil!” Going to the opposite end of the extreme 💀

[@skulliebythesea]

yep.

[@aleco444]

@@skulliebytheseathis explains religion, politics, and more!

[@fluffywolfo3663]

I blame social media. Social media's not great at reinforcing for people that you can be morally grey.

[@Capunderpants]

From what my therapist said black and white thinking is the biggest red flag that someone is extremely emotionally immature and hasn't grown up and out of it which in my opinion is sad.

[@PoppilyPoppy]

Which is wild, because every single person does things that range from morally grey to outright wrong. Every single one of us. Like, even if you think you’re a good person, you’re not. (General you.) None of us are, the majority of us aren’t evil or bad, but absolutely none of us are good. I think seeing flawed characters triggers something in a lot of people that make them lash out at or excuse the character. Like they don’t like what the character is doing but catch glimpses of themselves in them so it’s either demonize them completely and separate themselves from them or make a hundred and one excuses because otherwise the have to do some self reflection.

[@Elliot-qm3uh]

I unironically HATE the small bean trend, because most of the times these aren't 'innocent' or 'smol' characters, they've got through SO MUCH trauma and HAVE matured as people.

[@vickypedia1308]

Sometimes it feels like straight up infantilization

[@ΡΙΖΟΣΚΡΑΒΒΑΡΙΤΗΣ]

@@vickypedia1308 It ***IS*** infantilization.

[@CIA_Informant_number_8629]

It isn't Infantileization... because they are fictional characters people... People may lack the ability to read characters in depth. But you people are doing the "treat fictional characters like they are real" problem. No, *insert fictional character* cannot be hurt by infantileization, sexualization, or anything... because THEY ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE

[@josephjoestar8063]

Sooo true

[@spaghetto9836]

I've seen Homelander fanart where the artist calls him "cute & harmless", saying "He can land on my home anytime". God, if you're listening, please end me.

[@somedudewatchintv5297]

I also don't like that people immediately want a redemption arc when they find a character being bad. People refuse to engage until the character has been added to the good guy team in some way.

[@skulliebythesea]

ooh this is such a good point.

[@peachpopsicle4090]

Because either they're afraid of being attacked for liking a morally grey/bad character, or it's what they made up in their mind and can't accept anything else.

[@falconeshield]

Wtf happened man? Some villans are just villians. Some turn, some heel. But not all. That's the point.

[@Deadpan_Snarker]

You literally described Astarion and his Spawn girlies in a nutshell. While he is not a screwed up evil like Orin or Kazador, he is NOT a heroic type, not even anti-hero, and his Spawn ending feels like a joke or a fanservice for those same "fixers". This is the same man who approves almost EVERY evil choice, who seeks power and has a very Machiavellian worldview that he carried for 2 centuries, and you mean to tell me that your power of friendship and love was SO strong that it overwrote this mentality? This makes no sense character or human-wise and that's not how mind works. You don't become a hero who "seeks to inspire people" after you literally cheered me slaughtering all the innocent unarmed tielfings. I hate how they had to throw in that bulls!it redemption arc when he didn't need one. He didn't NEED to become Karlach 2.0 - he was a great character the way he was.

[@seeleunit2000]

It's that weird level of entitlement that makes me very nauseous. I honestly would like to be able to have an analysis done, on people who think like this. Does more about those people and it does about the characters in fiction

[@rabnerd28]

Not liking a character (or ship) because I find them annoying is truly like, 80% of the reason I don't like certain characters. Like, the murder is fake, but my annoyance is real.

[@skulliebythesea]

LMAO

[@theultimitelifeform8548]

Real

[@zalamazu]

You know the video is good when rabnerd comments

[@IndieDoodlesSometimes]

oh i'm the same. i love astarion and his story arc, but i despise his ascended form. he reminds me far too much of past trauma, but he's also insufferable to me. i understand his story, i love his spawn arc, i even relate to his trauma to an extent. he's a fictional character i love to bits but my annoyance with his ascended form is real.

[@BelBelle468]

I could never do that. Ppl use the excuse of annoying to justify hating disabled ppl, mentally ill, or neurodivergent ppl. And it’s just too painful. I like concrete reasonings.

[@DreamyHaze02]

This kind of reminds me of when people got upset over Jax from The Amazing Digital Circus. How he wasn't some baby girl tortured soul, who acts mean but actually cares, but how he was just an asshole. I saw someone say that Jax is the equivalent of a gta player in a kids game, and it's 100% true. People wanted him to be like Angel Dust, but that just isn't his character. (Great video btw, shocked more people haven't seen it!)

[@Scrimmers]

Yeah lol. I was keeping up with Goose’s tumblr so I knew for months the Jax wasn’t the “bad boy with a heart of gold trope”. I actually head cannoned him as misogynist (spoiler that became true) . It was funny seeing people get mad when they saw how bad he was acting in episode two.

[@DrawciaGleam02]

@@Scrimmers Still, I'm worried because some fans DID make some good character development stories for Jax. I'm scared that Goose's original vision might not be well-received in the end because of all the development fans apparently made for Jax.

[@Scrimmers]

@@DrawciaGleam02 That's fair, I don't really like TADC so I don't really pay attention to much of the content that comes out of it. The last thing I really watched was when the whole voice cast got on stream and played the fan game.But that's kinda the issue with having an independent show. Since TADC became more popular than anyone could've imagined, thousands of people were joining the evergrowing fandom while Glitch scrambled to make content for thier new golden child. So by the time episode 2 was even being teased it had nearly been half a year and TADC had over a million fans. Becuase of this long gap people made thier own content and interpretations for Jax which caused a lot fans to already have expectations for him, only for them to be utterly disappointed when they realized he was a total asshole and not the show's tsundere. As funny as it is to see I do fear for Goose as she's already tormented by her own fandom enough, the last thing she needs is mob of people screaming at her because she didn't write her character the way thier favorite AO3 fanfic said she would.

[@DrawciaGleam02]

@@Scrimmers " the last thing she needs is a mob of people screaming at her because she didn't write her character the way thier favorite AO3 fanfic said she would." Yeah, I'm very worried about that. I believe this is Goose's first show, so there are BOUND to be bumps in the road. However, TADC's popularity will make Goose's writing be more under a microscope. But another reason I got worried is because I've seen another show that aligned with its creator's "original vision" get BRUTAL HATE from a fandom: Sailor Moon Crystal.

[@glitchberry327]

I love him being an asshole and I want him to get worse lmao

[@iariponzi2124]

i really like it that you said "trauma doesn't make you stronger, it makes you harder to deal with" because i think most people really need to interiorize that, as well as i did when i was younger. feel like even i know that in the present, i couldn't put it in words. so you have, and im glad i get here and hear it. thank you good video, i just met you

[@skulliebythesea]

thank you so much for being here

[@DeletedCharacter]

I think it should be said that trauma CAN make you stronger. If you have the time, support system, and resources to heal, you will most likely become stronger. If not, it can destroy you. The phrase "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is definitely misleading, as going through something traumatic does not automatically make you better than you were before. It's definitely possible, but not something you are going to get immediately. There IS going to be a point where you're worse off than you were before. That is an undeniable truth. You can't rush healing from truama. I mean a lot of these characters, when going through their character development, are healing from what they've been through, and come out of it better than before.

[@badlie4858]

gotta love the mental gymnasticts people perform when they conclude that if characters make something 'morally incorrect' then the author approves it.

[@MegaPokefan97]

That mentality annoys me to no end

[@VijemaVati]

“This character thinks bad. This character written by this person. This person had to think of how character think. Therefore, this person think bad.” Dunno if how I portrayed it made sense, but agreed. It really annoys me to no end.

[@willowmermaid8762]

Especially in fandoms that I'm in, the realistically flawed characters that people villainize so much are usually children. Which is even more wild to me. No room for growth or change for you literal child lol.

[@laraprisma6381]

Chloe from Miraculous is a good example, but it's worse because The creator of the show itself hates her and made a point of retconning everything about her and making her 100% worse than she was in the first seasons!

[@YellowMango12]

​@@laraprisma6381 Does more of like a question, but do you think Sakura from Naruto can go in that category the fandom villainizing her so much even when she was a child? I mean this is Naruto, three episodes in, basically introducing the characters, and their flaws. People really got pissed off when she said something insensitive about Naruto. I feel like it was actually the truth he does do things, and gets away with it sometimes, and he doesn't have any parents to tell him what was right from wrong. But she said in such an insensitive way, which later on she got corrected and realized her mistakes after being corrected. Till this day people still hang on to that, which I do sometimes understand but feel like she redeemed herself decently. (Of course you don't have to agree but)

[@laraprisma6381]

@@YellowMango12 I haven't watched Naruto and I don't intend to. From what I know, many people don't like Sakura due to the fact that she is limited to romantic interest and her character revolves around Sasuke. Other than that, I don't care much.:/

[@bella_daze3092]

I’ve noticed this so much😭 and I’ve always wondered why that was the case

[@JaneD0e_LuckyNxmbr7]

90% of the pjo fandoms problem with characters could be fixed by saying “that’s a teenager”

[@toxicstarbot6701]

Ppl be like "I want complex characters!!!😤😤😤", like yall couldn’t even handle Rose Quartz.💀 (This video slaps, great points 👍👍👍)

[@oliviab4079]

I will die a rose quartz/pink diamond defender. She’s a Shakespearean level tragic character that doesn’t deserve to simply be written off as “problematic” and dismissed

[@SannidhiDeshpande]

THIS IS SO TRUE 😭

[@Gyaaaaaaaaaat69420]

Me asf ​@@oliviab4079

[@zuruaeclipse]

@@oliviab4079Exactly! I saw a video that described it best; we watched her character development in reverse, and so did Steven She’s still flawed, but we watched her timeline backwards

[@abbeybelanger8118]

​@@oliviab4079I also defend Rose Quartz but what I absolutely love about her character is that I understand the people who disagree

[@bella_daze3092]

I LOVE morally gray characters. I love characters that feel real and have actual flaws… and I’m glad you covered this topic. Not enough people talk about it.

[@skulliebythesea]

thank you for being here :)

[@bella_daze3092]

@@skulliebythesea my recommendation feed specifically brought me here so I’m glad for that. So many people do these things in fandoms😭😭😭 it’s insane! Kind of makes me nervous to publish my own original stuff, ya know? Because a lot of my main characters are teenagers and I don’t want people to hate them. I just wanna make stories and have people enjoy. It would’ve made you know? :.)

[@ivysalen]

I love flawed characters but I think the term 'morally grey' is misleading and leads to people removing their nuance in favour of stereotypes. Give me flawed, grounded, human characters. Give me characters I can sympathise with but not support their actions and beliefs, give me character that I love to hate, give me characters with complex motivations who have kinder moments but may not deserve forgiveness--which is fine, because forgiveness is a choice, not a right. Don't give me a dark edge lord with a soft spot for one character, who doesn't go through any major character arc until right before they die and call that a 'redemption'. I love well written redemptions but a sympathetic villain is still a villain and usually their 'act of redemption' is selfish anyway given they're usually saving the one person they care about after causing so much harm. Of course people can like that trope and that sort of character, it just isn't for me. And I love villain characters, just as long as the narrative knows they're the villain. A sympathetic villain is still the villain, and that's okay! But being able to sympathise with a character doesn't mean that they're in the right. I just don't like it when people use the term 'morally grey' to take away a character's impact on the story and other characters by saying that anything they do is fine because they had a tragic backstory, or that they really aren't as bad as everyone thinks and in fact they've done no wrong. People contain multitudes! A purely evil character can be very fun and so can a purely good character. And you can have flawed, human characters on both sides of the moral spectrum. This is just my personal opinion though, I'm not saying it's what everyone should think or that it's some great truth.

[@muhammadraiyanhaziq]

Speaking of morally grey characters, I really love em. Antiheroes especially. It just goes to show that antiheroes are also human, and it also reflects the duality of man as most people tend to be morally grey as not everything is black and white. Two of my favorite antihero characters are The Man with No Name and Dirty Harry, and I just love how nuanced their characters can be

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@muhammadraiyanhaziq but people constantly treat antiheroes as gary stus and mary stus and the moment they do some thing the audience doesn’t agree with than those characters are too far gone

[@marislolz]

I agree with everything you said. Personally I see it a lot in the good omens fandom, where people either act like Aziraphale has no flaws and would never do what he did at the end of season 2. Or he gets called abusive and people are saying he's leading Crowley on. And I honestly find it such a shame because he's such an interesting character. That's so complex and has so much going on and people are just ignoring that.

[@skulliebythesea]

THIS completely

[@nessyness5447]

Oh he would definetly do what he did, he is way too optimistic, too willing to see the good side of everyone and everything. And he wants so much to help and make things better. Some people don't realize that being " too good" can also be a flaw.

[@marislolz]

@@nessyness5447 absolutely, I think it's a double edged sword.Because it is a flaw but also one of his biggest strengths I think

[@deemorris1976]

​@@nessyness5447 I completely agree with this perspective but I'm not sure that's where they're going with Aziraphale's decision. I don't think things are going to go the way he wants them to in heaven, but it will have a purpose and he's going to do something big while he's up there without meaning to.

[@nessyness5447]

@@deemorris1976 of course is not gonna go as he wants. Wanting to make things better is a great thing, but the level of faith and naibety aziraphale has is not that good. Is a flaw in part. He needs a bit of a reality check. Doesn't mean he cannot still manage to do something good there even if not in the way he planned it, as you say. But he def needs to see why crowley is not interested in being " forgiven".

[@AMoniqueOcampo]

As an Astarion fangirl, I love what you said about him. I call Astarion "babygirl" as a joke, but in actuality, I love his character arc and I love his flaws and understand why he is the way he is. I feel like what you said about evil characters definitely applies to the actual evil characters in Baldur's Gate 3, as Gortash, Orin, Raphael, Cazador, and Ketheric Thorm are all victims of abuse. What separates the evil characters from the heroes, however, is that the tadpole squad can all choose to break the cycle of abuse. If you're doing an evil run, however, they can also choose to keep perpetuating those cycles.

[@skulliebythesea]

Yes to all of this. I agree completely

[@TaranTheWanderer49]

Ascended Astarion has to be the best portrayal of the cycle of abuse I have ever seen, and I could never bring myself to take that route

[@peachpopsicle4090]

Sadly, I see a lot of people hate and despise people who like AA or choose to do that route. Like, I get it, it's not your cup of tea, but these people literally say that if you do that route you hurt him, you're an awful person, etc.

[@himalayansalt32]

@@peachpopsicle4090 I'm a Spawn Astarion simp and my friend likes Ascended Astarion. We're honest with ourselves and liked him, because he's a hot elf flirting with our Tavs, and the rest is a spicy addition. We look at appearance when it comes to male characters, ugly men exist IRL, I want a distraction. I like his story, charisma, e.t.c., so I picked his Spawn path, my friend wanted a sexy sadistic vampire trope, she got what she wanted, everyone is happy, we're chatting happily and watch the drama from the side over a well-sculpted 3D model in Zbrush

[@peachpopsicle4090]

@@himalayansalt32 That's great! :] Both Ascended Astarion and Spawn Astarion are good options in my opinion, I like both routes for different reasons.

[@amethystimagination3332]

People right now want to be spoon fed without being condescended to, they want their hands held but get mad when the story does hold your hand. But that’s not how it works, you can’t expect everything to be as cut and dry as a preschool show and expect the complicated themes of media made for adults at the same time. If you want everything spelled out for you then fine, but don’t complain when the story feels too simple, because that’s what you asked for.

[@skulliebythesea]

THIS

[@theultimitelifeform8548]

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t

[@projectknm8670]

Here 📣 For those people in the back...

[@josephjoestar8063]

Spider man 2….

[@chastitymarks2185]

In Germany we call that:"Spritz mich, aber mach mich nicht nass" (Spray me down but don't get me wet)

[@TabbyWithMittens]

Sometimes my Gf and I joke about characters and call them "babygirls" and gush about them, but we also talk about why we like them- and that's usually because their flaws. We even have fun teasing each other for our preferences in characters sometimes lol.

[@skulliebythesea]

amazing

[@amandadiamond7147]

Rose Quartz. She's an amazing character. I love her. I think she's a masterpiece of story telling and characterization.

[@ellalameifwa5396]

YES! People just need to realize they saw her arc backwards and see that she did become a better person- She went from a child who had temper tantrums to the Leader of The Crystal Gems, freeing earth and the gems around her from Homeworld so they could choose what they want to do. She became a hero by growing up. That's so honorable and she does deserve the praise, despite her past actions.

[@Morrislover.they.xem.]

To be fair, her arc is shown backwards so to the audience we see her getting worse. I wish at the end of the show we got a brief flash back showing her arc chronilogically. I do definitely agree though.

[@legendarylancers7446]

I would disagree with that respectfully, her plot twist felt outta nowhere and that the "clues" where so open note that you can put any mystery there and it will work, and the way she treated Pearl is so weird making someone who essentially your personal slave hide your own secret from her found family for 100s of years so you didn't have to deal with the consequences of them finding out and giving her years of trauma knowing that she would follow you to the ends of the universe where it's shown that Pearl would be poofed and Rose personally shield in the war, not to mention her leaving Steven with her mess and to leave Greg as a single father

[@thefantasylife]

oh yeah, 100%. I actually rewatched the show recently, and her 'crimes' werent even that bad? i mean, im talking about base show here. People hated pink diamond before getting into the movie and future. Her leaving spinel in the garden wan't her best move, but we do have to remember that these are characters created to fulfill a narrative role, of course they arent going to have perfect actions.

[@jesterdays]

People often forget or don't realize that part of her journey was developing empathy for other gems and life forms. Of course she made a ton of mistakes and hurt others. Learning is not a straight line.

[@zackanderson7440]

Honestly it feels like people can’t handle complexity in general these days, it’s always good or bad, no in-between. I’ve seen movie that are just okay get utterly torn down by people who say it’s godawful when it really isn’t and it’s just so-so. I swear man the world is just getting more and more polarized with itself

[@zamzamhassan2985]

That’s actually so true. I’ve seen that as well, and now I realize it isn’t just fictional characters getting this kind of flak. 😥

[@HaKilly]

So what about "Unintentionally Unsympathetic" Tv Tropes

[@thejuiceking2219]

i think a big part of it comes down to the internet, content creators and the ad economy because you can make money from having people just see your stuff, regardless of whether they like it, there's a push to spout the opinions that get the most attention, and what better way to get the most attention (and thus the most money) by framing everything in the extremes, where everything is THE NEW REVOLUTION IN MEDIA or how THIS HAS RUINED EVERYTHING FOREVER social media influencers are a bunch of people screaming at us to pay attention to them, gotta scream as loud and as crazily as you can

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@HaKilly and what if those unintentionally unsympathetic characters comes off as genuinely sympathetic to some people? Plus you can also sympathize without justifying.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@HaKilly those same people on TV tropes probably root for and justify characters who are intentionally unsympathetic, or confuse sympathizing/complex layers with justifying

[@DeathLadyShinigami]

Good lord I HATE how this happens. I hate even more when the backstory gives reasons and explanations for Why a character acts or does what they do and when a fan tries to articulate why they like that, Everyone on the internet jumps down their throat saying your excusing that behavior. Hell No. Explanations and reasons are NOT the same as excusing something.

[@snowpoler]

This exactly. I like it when characters aren't agreeable and are given depth through complicated histories and problematic ways of thinking. Because that often forces an unpleasant perspective on the viewer, but unpleasant can also mean interesting. BUT ALSO. I definitely wouldn't like them as people. That's different though, and at the end of the day it doesn't quite matter as much because they themselves could never be real people I see this so much with CLEARLY far gone characters like Homelander from The Boys. Either you have people deluding themselves and others by saying "he's not so bad/he's justified in what he does" simply because he has really bad childhood trauma, orrr you can't even say that you think he's entertaining as a part of the show because then you get chastised by people who talk like Homelander being an absolutely iredeemable piece of shit at this point is something that's not hilariously obvious to normal, media literate people. For whatever reason, being ok with a character existing and having fun with it from time to time apparently means that you condone their worst ever actions.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@snowpoler this has been a huge problem with fans/audiences even media literate ones of the Boys and Gen V way less with Homelander and more with villains/antagonists like Soldier Boy, Sister Sage, Victoria Neuman, Stan Edgar, Ashley Barrett, Sam Riordan, Cate Dunlap, etc One of these characters recently got what they deserved (do you know who I’m talking about? If you’ve seen the season four finale), and everybody got mad about it, because the character showed a bit of humanity, and forget all the bad they did. And when the character was first introduced, and all they cant cope with the fact that they were a villain, and cope by thinking and hoping that they are secretly redeemable antiheroes. People are in denial that these characters have done awful things, and constantly need them to be redeemed when they show a little bit of humanity, and/or defend these characters just because they didn’t do things “that bad” and showed relatability or likability. Or cannot cope with the fact that they are villains and complain They are horribly written for being villains and need them to be redeemed in order to be good characters or if the character is humanized, then they want the character to get away and live with no consequences and have a happy ending

[@thecheck968]

I think Ascended Astarion can be a more focused study of this topic. In this version of the character, he's is written to be evil. He's failed his redemption arc and plans to perpetuate the cycle of abuse, even taking his former master's palace, place in the ritual, and hierological ideology. His power-hungry tendencies are amplified as he becomes possessive of the player character and even plots a purge against his former allies. I see two types of Ascended Astarion fans: the ones who indulge in it as a fantasy knowing he's a bad person and those who never recognize Ascended Astarion as evil. This former group excuses every one of his actions and take it to a wild extreme. The ritual is a sort of test for the player. Rather than holding Astarion accountable for his callous behavior and manipulative tendencies, some players turn a blind eye and enable his worst traits until the core of his character is destroyed.

[@skulliebythesea]

i completely understand indulging in ascended astarion because while he is written as evil. he is written as a genuinely impactful showcase of the continued cycle of the abuse. The writing is good and therefore, I think it's totally fine that people engage with it. I do think it's important to make the distinction that his behavior is not appropriate in "real life", but ascended astarion is genuinely an interesting addition to the character imo.

[@s1b3r11]

While I agree that he is definitely an evil-aligned character (AA not normal Astarion)and that his relationship is unhealthy (that's why I don't ascend him myself), I have 2 main problems with how most people headcanon Ascended Astarion. First, I have noticed that most people who consider him evil do not use the same standard for Tav. Obviously, killing 7000 people is wrong, but Astarion can't finish the ritual on his own. If you choose to ascend him then it means that your character willingly participated in the ritual and is as guilty of the death of all those people as Astarion. Yet people and even companions in the game keep behaving as if Tav/Durge still was an innocent brave hero and Astarion's victim when in reality your character is as evil as him, if not more considering the game straight out tells you he is basically drunk and incapable of thinking straight in the moment and also is in the place that causes all of his traumatic memories to resurface. On the other hand, the player character is calm and unaffected in the moment of choosing to complete the ritual. I don't think it's fair for a player to "hold Astarion accountable for his callous behaviour" and ascending in such case considering you're role-playing an even more evil character. Pot called the kettle type of situation. My second problem with AA hate is that some people don't recognize that you can be evil in many different ways, or that one evil character can be simultaneously less evil than another evil character. They paint AA to be even worse than he is only because they don't like him. For example, I have recently seen a comment stating that AA prohibits romanced Shadowheart from seeing her parents posted under a video where Shadowheart explicitly states that she does, in fact, see her parents regularly... Those people often make out AA to be the worst, the most evil person in the entire game - worse even than people like Sarevok, Orin, Durge or even Bhaal himself. They also love to call AA "Cazador 2.0" which is another thing I strongly disagree with. Yes, AA does perpetuate the cycle of abuse, but you don't have to be exactly like your abuser to perpetuate the cycle. You can be toxic or evil in a completely different way. For AA even in his worst ending -when a player several times agrees to become his spawn/consort only to then try to dump him which he doesn't allow - the epilogue specifies that the player has everything besides freedom. AA never tortures you, never grapes you or pimps you out, never forces you to do anything again your will. Cazador on the other hand did all those things to his spawn. AA even says you can have intimate relationships with whoever you want as long as you stay by his side which means he is clearly not as possessive as some people make him out to be. He also gives you all the information beforehand and asks for your permission to turn you. Cazador on the other hand preyed on those without a choice who never even had a choice and wanted to completely control them. The popular narrative that "he is just Cazador 2.0 and the player is just like Cazador's spawn" is therefore completely inaccurate. Honestly, I don't believe that any sane person having to choose between being Cazador's spawn or AA's spawn would have chosen Cazador. AA is evil and toxic but not to the same point Cazador was. He is rather on a similar level of "evil" as DJ Shadowheart and Vlaakith's Lae'zel (who both by the way get a lot less hate).

[@Deadpan_Snarker]

It's so ironic of you to "categorise" us into groups, under a video that mocks those who see everyone though the lense of black and white. Ascendant can't possibly be any better - he only has to be a tyrannical monster who "continues the cycle of abuse", Ascendant fans have to be either enablers or lusty hoes and not someone who thinks practically and would prefer to give him a better life, than forcing him to forever be stuck in the Underdark with mindflayers, mushrooms and drow slavers who would kill/enslave him at the first opportunity. Oh, and this is FOR EVER. Ascendant no longer feels hunger. No longer fears the sun. Can see his reflection. Can travel the world. Is stronger than a true vampire. If you think that absultely everyone would see that and go "no, you stay in the Underdark forever, that's better" than I literally have nothing more to tell you.

[@lynnboartsdye1943]

I’m so glad this is being talked about, I still remember when people were bitching about Angel Dust in the Poison music video saying it was glorifying sexual assault, I’m a firm believer that’s not what was happening. The video and song have this contrast between the mask that Angel puts on to hide his pain vs the actual horror of what he’s going through. I get that hazbin didn’t have a lot of time to develop everything for their first season but you can at least understand how he’s written.

[@anokartist2352]

Fr. Every person I've seen who has dealt with sexual abuse really love and relate to angel. The only people (I've seen) with problems about he or his episode was portrayed are hazbin anti-stans who never dealt with the p*rn industry or sa relationships in their life. I've even seen people justify their dislike of the song because a storyboarder was outed as an angel × val shipper (he was fired) and say because he probably got off to the art that its bad despite no one being aware of it at the time.

[@akisatsuki8444]

@@lynnboartsdye1943 the argument that “Poison” glorifies sexual abuse irritates the living hell out of me. You can like or dislike the portrayal, but the minute someone tries to claim that “Poison” is glorifying anything I tend to lose all faith in their media literacy.

[@scoot-scoot51341]

​@@anokartist2352 Didn't he have a r*pe fetish as well? Making it, like, EXTRA bad that he storyboarded the sa scenes?

[@barklols]

Seriously. It’s like they weren’t even paying attention to the lyrics and how it’s basically a cry for help because his profession is slowly killing him. Not to mention how they’re like “they turned it into a bright pop dance number” or whatever. Like they don’t understand that it’s him escaping into drugs and dissociation while the acts being performed in him in that moment are being played behind him on screen. I firmly believe that people who claim it’s glorifying or romanticizing SA, likely never experienced SA in their life and are trying to be righteous by saying it was negative representation of the topic.

[@intergalactic92]

People thinking it glorified SA missed the point of the episode.

[@blueturtle3623]

I definitely noticed this insane response people seem to have, and it's very confusing. Nobody in the real world is all good or all bad, everyone is the protagonist of their own story. Protagonists are not paragons, they're just the POV character. Antagonists are not (necessarily) evil, they are the obstacle to the protagonist's goal. I love characters who are flawed, because they feel like real people in a real situation.

[@skulliebythesea]

i feel similarly. thank you for being here :)

[@spaghetto9836]

_Thank you._

[@merobiba413]

yes!! I feel like people seem to forget that 'protagonist' and 'antagonist' don't necessarily equate to "good" and "evil". It just basically means "the person who's story we're following" and "the one who gets in their way". Even if a story focused on a terrible, evil person, they'd still be the protagonist, even if they're not the 'hero'

[@trolledfordrip]

Take madness combat where we know hank is the protagonist but we know he is evil

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@merobiba413 how do the same people with media literacy forget this basics thing, and that not always the protagonist is correct and that they can be hypocritical, and doesn’t always need to get away with the consequences, and demonize antagonist when antagonist make them uncomfortable

[@ImpulsiveCreativity]

Laughs in Interview with the Vampire. More people are watching the new show and the takes truly have been...a lot. All characters are problematic victims.

[@skulliebythesea]

I'll add it to my watchlist

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@ImpulseCreativity this has been a huge problem with The Boys now

[@HeartCloud]

Although I am not an abuse victim myself, I adore Angel Dust as a deeply flawed/morally gray character in Hazbin Hotel. His character personality and the trauma he goes through is what makes him interesting while also displaying moments where he wasn't a good person. Like a character doesn't need to be perfect in morality with trauma to be interesting. He puts on a mask to shield away the pain he goes through while also making sure the ones that he cares about doesn't get involved in his situation. Like in Episode 4: "Masquerade", Angel was terrified when Charlie followed him to his work to go confront his boss Valentino. He cared for Charlie's safety and wouldn't want her to get hurt. He did yell at her to leave, but through the voice acting, it is pretty obvious that he didn't want to do it. But, he was forced to by Valentino just so she is safe. Or in Episode 6: "Welcome to Heaven" Angel protecting Niffty from going under the same path he is in when she immensely drunk. Those are examples of what I like about Angel's character for how he is a deeply flawed individual, but has moments where he can do good that goes through the trauma of SA. So, I'm glad you mentioned Angel Dust in this video!

[@MoonPieKook]

Oh my god, I was so annoyed when the Good Omens fandom started demonizing Aziraphale due to the ending of season two. Some people act like he's this perfect sweet angel and that him doing what he did was some wild misstep and how dare he do that to Crowley! When in reality he is a flawed angel, a bastard, who has a lot of religious trauma. Yes, he wants to do what he feels is the right thing, but that doesn't mean the steps he takes to achieve that are always correct. What happened at the end of season two was upsetting and heartbreaking, but with the conversation he had with the Metatron and the way Crowley and Aziraphale still struggle to properly communicate with each other, it was fully in character for him. This is why when people fight tooth or nail about the coffee theory being cannon (the coffee theory is that the coffee he took from the Metatron brainwashed him into making his decision) take away from his character. I know i'm being vague kind but I don't want to spoil the ending of season two for those who haven't seen it yet. I could talk about this for hours! Good Omens is my current fixation right now so it really annoys me when people misjudge a character.

[@Scrimmers]

I watched all of good omens a few months ago and never really cared to interact with the fandom besides some fanart. The coffee theory thing has to be one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard from a Neil Gaimen fandom. Not only is the only piece of evidence just “B-but Aizerphale wouldn’t do that” but it just takes away character depth from him just so people so people can have their shallow tumblr fanfic:(

[@MoonPieKook]

@@Scrimmers Exactly! :- (

[@13socksonmyrightfoot]

OMG EXACTLY! Portraying Aziraphale like some perfect little angel who does no wrong is such a contradiction to his actual character! Like, did we even watch the same thing? Aziraphale is a grey character who does good AND bad things! And I think the reason the people who portray him that way portray him that way is because he's an angel. Even though we literally see the angels in the series doing objectively very BAD things!

[@staryshows]

@@Scrimmers The fact i was seeing people say "when metatro gives the coffee you can hear a mirical sound!" and when I went and checked IT WAS NOT THEIR like are we just lying now to make it cannon?????

[@millii347]

They should rather start to demonizing Metatron, it’s a 2nd time that he done some nasty manipulative work in an angel/someone relationship (the first was in Supernatural universe)

[@mellemadswoestenburg1296]

This brings me back to your Wanda video. How amazingly complex and human she was in WandaVision despite being the cause of the terrible thing happening. And how that was all destroyed by turning her into a full blown villain in MoM. And even before MoM everyone was calling her a selfish, psychopathic, irredeemable villain because of what she causes, completely ignoring the fact that she doesn't intentionally do it, isn't even fully aware of what she's doing for the most part and is HORRIFIED when she finds out the full truth. She's not 100% good. She's not 100% bad. She's a complex, human person. That made her so captivating.

[@skulliebythesea]

THIS

[@elisabethschmerzler963]

Eh they still could’ve handled it better like Wanda actually facing consequences for her actions. It didn’t feel like she learned any lessons from Wandavision other than “don’t do this because it is bad” and while that can be understandable in real life it doesn’t add to a satisfying payoff in fiction that gives the audience a reason to care. Sorry if this is long I just really don’t like how the MCU has characterized Wanda

[@mellemadswoestenburg1296]

@elisabethschmerzler963 no it's not long. Hell, my comment was longer so don't worry. This is not meant to be an attack because unlike a lot of people I've talked to about this topic, you actually seem respectful about it. Yeah, I've seen that sentiment a lot. But honestly, what would "consequences for her actions" even be? Imprisonment? She can break out of any prison they put her in, it would be a willing house arrest at best. Something bad happening to her loved ones? She's already lost everybody she cares about, that's kind of the reason why the show even happened. Something bad happening to her personally? That did happen. The hex gave Wanda everything she ever wanted in a time where she desperately needed it. A home, her loved ones, peace, safety, comfort, a good life away from the horror story that is her reality. But in the end she willingly gave it all up because she didn't want it at the cost of thousands of innocent people suffering. She lost everything all over again and now she has to move on, trying to cope with her loss all alone while carrying the burden of what she had done to these people. That's also why i really appreciate that her last line of dialogue is her taking accountability for everything and vowing to do better. "I'm sorry... for all the pain I've caused. I don't understand this power, but i will". So me personally i think they wrapped her story in WandaVision up as best they could here. But hey that's just me. You can disagree with me and that's fine.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@mellemadswoestenburg1296 but what’s wrong with Wanda being flawed? Why can’t a villain be humanized but also deliberately wrong? That’s what I thought the video was trying to talk about. Can’t be that humanized villains aren’t allowed to be called out or can’t do things that are consciously wrong?

[@mellemadswoestenburg1296]

@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 oh there is nothing wrong with her being flawed. As i said, i love her being flawed. There's just a difference between flawed and evil to me. And i just don't see her as evil in WandaVision but i do in MoM. For me at least, in order to be an actual villain you need to do bad things on purpose and knowing what you are doing. You can have a twisted sense of justice attached to it sure. Like Thanos, wanting to kill half of all existing life but it's in order to create balance. It's an extremely evil thing to do and he's fully aware of what he's doing but he's justifying it to himself the whole time. Wanda isn't really like that. She does a terrible thing in WandaVision sure. She is the cause of the terrible things happening here. But it was never her intention. She doesn't cast the spell on Westview intentionally, it just happened to her when she had a grief fueled breakdown. And for the most part is unaware of what the spell really does. She becomes more aware of the fact that she's in control of this new reality but not that it's causing harm. She just thinks that she made everyone in the town happier. Especially since they were all miserable when she arrived. But when Agatha shows her the truth about what she's truly causing she completely breaks down. She's horrified, devastated and in a complete " i'm so sorry, i never meant for this to happen" and immediately tries to make the hex go away to free the people of Westview from what she did to them. Which makes Wanda ultimately a morally good yet flawed person rather than a full blown villain. She made a terrible mistake and wants to rectify it because it was never her intention to hurt anybody. Her last line in the show seems to be her taking responsibility and wanting to do better, as I've stated in my earlier comment. Which is why her appearance in MoM was so jarring to me and many others. Ending WandaVision like that only to turn her into an actual villain immediately afterwards. She basically went like "welp, i learned absolutely nothing all of a sudden and i will use dark magic to chase this girl across the multiverse so i can finally get my family back and i will mercilessly slaughter anyone who gets in my way". That's where she crosses the line between flawed and evil.

[@thebatmanofneo-gotham5667]

I mean, I was going to offer my own two cents to this whole "we can't handle flawed characters" stigma, but all those comments pretty much hit the nail on the head. They pretty much covered how I feel when it comes to this situation.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@thebatmanofneo-gotham5667 this is literally Hank Pym from Marvel comics. They demonize him so much just cause he feels personal and can’t handle him being redeemed or severely flawed and broken. Same thing happened with moon knight in the early 2000s. He feels personal to them but excuse/defend other Marvel characters/villains that have done similar things and worse things and those villains get excused all the time and people root for them, don’t get that those same villains and characters they justify can also feel personal to others and make fun of others who take those villains they root for personally

[@amandadiamond7147]

I've always been a fan of "bitchy" characters (which apon some reflection may have just been code for trauma survivor) in stories. Like Rose from Legend of Dragoon, or Morrigan from Dragon Age. Honestly one of the reasons I keep Astarion on my team and trust him is because I recognized the trauma in his mannerisms immediately and I thought, with that (trauma) I atleast have an idea of what I'm working with because I've been inside that before.

[@princeapoopoo5787]

Loving both Rose and Morrigan You are entrenched in culture.

[@talscorner3696]

Ironically, that's the reason why Morrigan always made me roll my eyes xD Hmmmmmm... I should play DA:O again, it's been at least a decade, after all.

[@amandadiamond7147]

@@talscorner3696 I think one of my favorite dialogue exchanges is between Morrigan and Alistar after you track down his "sister". She doesn't really like Alistar, but she still doesn't think he should let other people disrespect him and she tells him so. That really encapsulates everything I love about her as a character.

[@zaqvkn]

HI!! love this video!!

[@skulliebythesea]

you'll be happy to know that i have a FULL in depth video of Angeldust planned. I absolutely adore him.

[@zaqvkn]

@@skulliebythesea YAYYYYYY!!!! :DDD

[@alejandradasilva1999]

I don't think the sexual harassment is Out oc character compared to his Pilot counterpart tbh- is just that in the Pilot he mostly interacts with women (that he is, for obvious reasons, not interested at) but the moment he sees Husk he throws himself at him just like he does at the actual show

[@zaqvkn]

@@alejandradasilva1999 i completely understand! i just think that the reason he threw himself at husk is because he's the bartender and wants to get on his good side? i just feel like this is habit for angel dust (seeing that he's a porn star and his internal struggles). in the pilot, angie makes sexual jokes because he sees them as funny (ex. "would that make the hat the top and you the bottom?") and not because he's particularly trying to make the person uncomfortable. however, in the show, he makes sexual jokes that seem to have more... malicious reasonings? it's as if he wants to make other people uncomfortable, rather than trying to make jokes that he himself finds funny. i feel like angie of all people would know what sexual harassment is and would try and steer away from that, but that doesn't mean he'll just stop making sexual jokes all the sudden -- to angie, that's a part of him! now, don't get me wrong, i LOVE characters who are both victim and the perpetrator. i love when the cycle repeats and there's that "i'm just like them" moment. "the abused becomes the abuser". but for a character like angel dust, i just don't think it's needed. and i do see your point! i just don't find it to be a tasteful decision for viv to make -- it's probably the only real problem i have with angel dust's character. hope i got my point across.

[@akisatsuki8444]

@@zaqvkn Maybe he sexually harasses people because that’s what’s been normalized to him. He might have forgotten what an actual healthy sexual relationship looks like. Of course that doesn’t make it okay, and it’s something that I want to see him overcome, that’s just my take on it.

[@eksassy901]

I think part of the lack of media literacy now stems from an unfortunate side effect of what some deem “cancel culture.” Lots of times it is truly deserved to make change but it does paint things in a very black and white binary. It seems like more and more people are looking at fictional characters as a black and white binary and the nuisances of morally grey characters seem to be gone. I love watching Alicient on HOTD. Is she a morally “good” character? No, but I understand her interesting backstory and understand why she would do the things she would do growing up from that perspective. To me she is just a good character and I enjoy good characters.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@eksassy901 this is also the case with the bear season three because Carmy is severely flawed, unjustified, and verbally abusive, and he has a lot of trauma he carries with him and regresses, which is very realistic, and the same audiences that demand Everything be realistic in order to be compelling demonize carmy and claim he’s a stagnant character, not every human being changes over the years some stay the same and struggle to change or choose not to change.

[@Lakthul]

This kinda somewhat reminds me of something going on in the EPIC: The Musical community. There's massive groups forming saying "Odysseus is the good/bad guy", "Eurylochus is a better/worse person than Odysseus!" and it just completely misses the point. Neither character, in fact, NO character in that musical is meant to be the morally "best" or "worst" character, they're all individuals who want to serve their own goals, some more selfishly or ruthlessly than others. The whole point is literally that Odysseus just wants to get home, but he becomes more and more traumatised and then more aggressive to get home, it's complicated.

[@zamzamhassan2985]

This is exactly how I feel when I scroll down the comments of the songs. You got people bashing/justifying one side or the other. And I’m here like: Y’all…they were all men just trying to go home. 🤧 There’s no right or wrong side, it’s just extremely complicated and unfortunate. But lots of people have a problem comprehending that.

[@vickywicky08]

Oh I agree so much! I feel like people forget the line/song “Just A Man” when they get into those debates lmao. I feel that the fact that Eury echoes it makes this way more prominent

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@zamzamhassan2985 this is literally Hank Pym from Marvel comics. They demonize him so much just cause he feels personal and can’t handle him being redeemed or severely flawed and broken. Same thing happened with moon knight in the early 2000s. He feels personal to them but excuse/defend other Marvel characters/villains that have done similar things and worse things and those villains get excused all the time and people root for them, don’t get that those same villains and characters they justify can also feel personal to others and make fun of others who take those villains they root for personally

[@Skrzacik]

I am a total Mary-Sue hater and I absolutely need characters to be flawed, just like we all are. People being so extreme in fandoms is what is turning me away from them. It's so sad people can't seem to appreciate BOTH the good and the bad of characters, understand the reasons behind it, just empathize, without putting the extreme labels of either "I LOVE YOU" or "I HATE YOU"

[@HaKilly]

So "Pure Good" character are mary sue?

[@Skrzacik]

@@HaKilly yes exactly, boring mary sues, because in real life there is no 100% pure good people, we all have some flaws. But that's just my opinion, you don't have to agree with me.

[@HaKilly]

@@Skrzacik this is dumbest opinion i ever heard, if character doesn't have flaws, but have weaknesses, they are not "mary sues". You never actually search up for actual "Mary Sue" meaning

[@HaKilly]

@@Skrzacik also with that logic, every single "Pure Evil" villain qualifying, because no one in real life is 100% evil

[@Skrzacik]

@@HaKilly okay, it can be the dumbest opinion in your opinion, I don't mind :) have a nice day

[@Luna-ej4mi]

Gwen F-ing Stacy (ATSV)

[@skulliebythesea]

OMG I COULD TALK FOR DAYS ABOUT GWEN

[@almessasorrow4950]

I don't recall anyone calling her a villain, people hate her because she was 100% a bad friend in ATSV. Peter B was at least supportive of the escape due to the whole mentor thing, he just told miles to think about what he's doing. That's all. Gwen was actively trying to capture miles and imprison him. Peter understood miles can't let his dad die, he just wanted miles not to do anything he'll regret. Gwen was actively trying to stop miles from saving people at every turn. I don't think she's evil and no body else I've seen (so far) has called her evil, just a bad friend. In the words of scorpia to catra"You're a bad friend"

[@BelBelle468]

@@almessasorrow4950 I think it’s ppl calling her a bad friend but ignoring the problem she’s dealing with and saying they’re NBD

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@Luna-ej4mi honestly Miguel gets wayyy more flack than Gwen and is even more villainized than Gwen

[@dgmilloway]

​@@skulliebytheseaI would love to hear you go on for days and this! Gwen gets way too much hate.

[@zetafish7347]

It really iritates me how people are seemingly not allowed to like problematic characters without having to constantly justify it. People think that liking Valentino as a character for example is equivalent to condoning his actions. No one should ever have to get harassed or shamed just for liking a character that happens to do terrible evil things because at the end of the day that character isn't real.

[@justkat9148]

Him is one of my favorite characters from PowerPuff Girls. Even as a kid. And I know he's literally the evilest of all evil. I've never tried to justify his actions. To me he's just a silly guy and a cool villian.

[@skulliebythesea]

HIM IS AMAZING

[@flowersnskies]

I was talking with my parents about Alicent (we all watch HOTD) and it surprised me to learn they both hate her and think she's just evil, not even acknowledging her feelings and how everyone around her failed her. For them, once she had children she had to erase all her trauma and be a good mother, and when she didn't it meant she was bad. I was baffled.

[@stur3366]

The thing is that none of the things she went through are an excuses for the things she did. How she treated rhaenyra, her own children, the girl that aegon graped, plus her being a hypocrite and high horse attitude. I hate alicent as a person but love her as a character.

[@SuperMaster000X]

I read smt the other day, it was like this: "...The words Problematic and Woke, have become words that just expresses the rejection of getting out of your confort zone, not even a lil..." . Makes me think, people just want confort now, not challenge and in consequence well, the things you say en the video happen.

[@TheDisquietingNight]

Duh? You see how f'ed up real world is rn? Media is supposed to be a break from all that, not a reminder of it

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@SuperMaster000X I feel like these problems are not called out a lot in non “anti-woke” or non “oh this sucks cause its woke” circles

[@gastounmanar9814]

It not about being confortable it's about calling out problematic behaviour.

[@elisabethschmerzler963]

What I really like about Baldur’s Gate 3 is almost all of the companions start out as insufferable or self-righteous because they are so deep in their own mindsets. Astarion isn’t the only one as Shadowheart, Laezel, Gale and sometimes Wyll can be extremely frustrating not because they try to be but because in their extremely flawed perspective they think they are right and everyone else is wrong. But as you play the game and learn more about them you can help them break down their walls and understand that the world is more complex and that it’s ok that they were wrong as long as they recognize it and try to be better. That writing and character storylines is what makes BG3 so much fun and the characters seem so much more realistic. They’re all people, plain and simple.

[@MegaPokefan97]

And then there's Karlach. Nothing about her is grating, or at least, supposed to be. She still has flaws, mainly her emotional outbursts

[@byronsenior6499]

It's always risky starting you're characters too unlikable. Maybe it benefits from being a game where even if you don't like them, it's interactive.

[@hollymakesawish]

Jinx from Arcane. i relate to her SO MUCH. like... yes she does terrible things, AND she is a trauma survivor who is trying her best to survive in a harsh world, while coping with unimaginable mental health struggles that distort her reality. "trauma doesn't make you stronger.... it makes you harder to deal with." that's literally me. it makes me so sad and unseen when people call me "strong." like no, i'm not strong. i'm very weak, actually. my trauma didn't make me stronger, it left me with indelible scars that legit damaged my brain and will permanently affect my mental health and life.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

I think another thing contributing to this is the way people want redemption to be structured. It’s either “this character should be completely redeemed with all their flaws cured” or “this character should die a horrific firey painful death, and you should be happy about it too.” I’ve seen people from both camps in this very comment section.

[@zerosenseofself]

I love to mention Katsuki in these discussions. He is a masterclass on how to do character development, top tier deuteragonist. My guy fought his own insecurities, learned to accept support and friendship, came to terms with his inadequacy about the most important person to him, fully embracing his feelings, then walking towards death. Getting to see the growth step by step is such a satisfying experience as a viewer. Yet the western audience know him as "the middle school bully of the mc from first episodes" to this day. It's pretty unamusing, considering that the manga is literally on it's end.

[@chaewonsroses]

ngl my eye starts twitching when these people keep plastering this label of a middle school bully onto katsuki, as if he hasn’t changed a LOT from season 1 to season 6

[@thelast9583]

I feel a lot more people could accept his growth better, if the ship for him and Deku wasn't so popular. A lot of people can't really imagine being friends with someone who bullied them or someone they loved like he did to Deku, even if they improved themselves like he did. They see what he did as unredeemable and will refuse to let their views of him change.

[@MoeMoe-ft7wj]

Some parts of Katsuki's personality are practically unrecognizable even from seasons 1 to 3. He went from a brat who always thought he was the best to blaming himself for being too weak. He 100% believed he ruined All Might's life. That is not the same boy I saw at the start of the story and that's a good thing! He's still recognizably Katsuki but he's maturing, which is normal for a teenager.

[@haruascarrot]

I think my problem with katsuki’s character development was how the people around him were dealt with, not so much the journey itself, for one I think Izukus trauma should’ve been something that was focused on a lot more, like I know we got vigilante arc but that never really addresses deep down why it is Izuku sees his own life as inferior, his time as a quirkless kid that was bullied and nobody believed in should’ve been addressed and begun on his own healing journey BEFORE Bakugou began trying to mend his relationship with him, also idk but I would have liked to have seen at least some form of repercussions for the bullying that did take place at the start of season 1 in UA. I still like Bakugou’s arc, it’s great but I just can’t handle how it seems the show placed more importance on Bakugou’s changing from his own flaws, and don’t balance that with Izuku healing from that almost suicidal ideation. (I know that’s probably to make vigilante arc more believable, but I still think they could’ve addressed the problem and had that as sort of a BIG relapse into old habits) This is just my opinion tho and it has been a while since I watched the show so correct me if I’m wrong on something 👍

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

​​@@chaewonsrosesor ignoring the fact that unlike actual middle school bullies he actually apologizes for how he treated Deku and proves it multiple times during the final war literally with his life in one instance.

[@theultimitelifeform8548]

Here’s the thing I’ve found mainly with book tok and communities like that. They don’t love morally grey characters, they lust over them. They don’t think their character is interesting, they like them because they’re hot and because they kill people. And it never goes beyond that. That might be one of the most disappointing things to me

[@killme5630]

The term "morally grey bf" pisses me off so much

[@almessasorrow4950]

Osp does both.

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

@@almessasorrow4950 That bunch of asexuals definitely doesn't lust over characters lmao

[@almessasorrow4950]

@@antonioscendrategattico2302 I'm ace. We lust, just not much. You obviously didn't see the video of red lusting over venom

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

@@almessasorrow4950 ...I didn't, admittedly.

[@Aliceintherosegarden]

As someone familiar with PTSD, Astarion is one of the most, if not the most realistic portrayals in media I have ever seen, because of his flaws. Most fictional characters with PTSD seem to either be vetrans or damsels in distress, the latter common when the trauma is any kind of abuse. The damsel in distress trope disgusts me even more when they decide to forgive the abuser (which some misguided people adviced me to do *sigh*). But I never saw the anger I and most other trauma victims felt, nor that forgiving abusers is not needed to start living again. Until I played Baldur's Gate 3. I saw myself in Astarion, he felt anger towards the world and never even considered forgiving Cazador. At the same time he tried to love and live again with a lot of passion and willpower. He will have to live his scars (both the litteral and metaphorical ones such as vampirism and a changed worldview) forever, but his life will still be worthy and full. I could write a book about how Astarion's story has helped me take my final steps in recovery but long story short, I learnt to love myself and my body again because his arc made me feel seen and understood.

[@merobiba413]

yes!! As someone with abuse-related PTSD I absolutely adore Astarion's character. I do call him 'babygirl' as a joke sometimes, but really his character arc (and particularly him expressing his rage) was really powerful for me. I've gotten really sick of the whole 'victims forgiving those who wronged them' trope and the way it makes well-meaning people think that that's what needs to happen. It's rare that characters are written in a way that validates those kinds of feelings that so many people with trauma experience, that it's okay to be angry and never forgive someone (also, on the other hand, that someone could have trauma but that doesn't make them a better person. Astarion does some seriously morally questionable stuff, too).I love that Astarion never considers forgiveness, but still finds ways to move on and live his own life.

[@imjustazaleanow]

As an aspiring writer, it's really upsetting to see that so many people will consider a character a "horrible person" because they have flaws. This thinking almost made me consider removing a lot of the "bad" flaws from my characters, especially ones that I don't want to be seen as the most awful person ever. More people need to see this video and hopefully understand that just because a character does a bad thing that you don't agree with, doesn't mean that they are a terrible person or that you are a terrible person for liking them.

[@chislonjames6767]

I agree it makes me afraid to write sometimes. Some will completely antagonize characters (*cough* angel dust) or wash away their flaws. I mean it's fine if you don't like the characters you have every right to do so but doing either of the two I mentioned is wrong

[@tealsky4]

I’m so happy that you’re boosting this type of conversation as I’ve observed so many people being quick to stake others for enjoying a character that is deemed “problematic” for being written in a villainous or immoral way. I love that you talked about how people that enjoy these types of characters are not excusing the ethics of the character themself, but just fans of the intrigue that their story can create! It’s fiction, so we give the fictive pass to the character’s actions. Like you said, if every story was pure and had flawless characters, no one would interact with the media because there’s nothing interesting about it.

[@red_velvet_0w0]

I do feel like a lot of the difference between "hes just a little guy" vs "this is literaly satan" of flawed characters is partly based off of gender, and how we are more accepting of flawed men then of flawed women (though of course there is nuance). best example i can think of is Jonathat Sims and Melanie King from the magnus archives, who despite being paralels for each other and Jon doing MUCH worse things then Melanie (ie torture hundreds of people, attempt omnicide, straight up kill people and talk about how much he enjoyed killing them) the fandom effectively entirely likes and supports Jon, but almost universaly despises Melanie for being angry sometimes and hating Jon for doing non-consentual surgery on her.

[@spaghetto9836]

I was just thinking about this. Walter White being "babygirl"-ified in the fandom while his wife, who suffered from his actions, was so hated that fans harassed her actress. People who hate SU calling Rose outright evil like it's a revelation, when she's obviously supposed to be gray (even Steven resents her in part). Heck, I recently saw a playthrough of a nice horror game called "Dressed in Red" where you play as the murderer- a calculating woman out for revenge. There was queer subtext with one of her victims. A good amount of commenters hated her, seeing her as evil when she was a good morally gray character. It's like these people go out of their way to have tunnel vision & not appreciate the good/interesting parts of a nuanced character when they're female. Amorality doesn't just take the form of gritty, male anti-heroes like Red Hood or The Punisher, nor does it belong to them.

[@loginlost_horizon6327]

Lolwhat? Since then we are more accepting on flawed men than women? People hate Gortash's guts but want Minthara to step on them and call her a victim just because her eyes got wet on one occasion. Dame Aylin is over-the-top asshole with ego so inflated it could cover the sun and the stars, but people praise her like she is some kind of revelation from heaven. People are always more accepting of flawed women, so as more compassionate towards them, people just get more irritated about flawed women because in general those are written poorly like some fcn Rey Paltpatine, or because people EXPECT her to not be flawed (Because she's a woman and female-bias dictates that she suppose to not be so flawed, a victim at worst).

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@spaghetto9836 people are even sadistic when Maria lost hank

[@MalkuthSephira]

...IS melanie actually hated by the fandom? i haven't seen that very much myself, but it's very possible i'm just moving in different circles. either way that's... SO weird. also melanie DOESN'T hate jon, though? like, that literally isn't in there. she's mad about him removing the bullet, but after that, even at a point when they're not really friends anymore, i never got the sense that she was actually holding a real grudge. GEORGIE is the one who doesn't want jon around melanie. i'm trying REALLY hard to think of anything genuinely bad melanie did in the whole series and i'm coming up with nothing, lol. i could write an essay about how awful of a person basira is (not the worst person, to be clear, but still, wow) and i think georgie does some genuinely disturbing interpersonal things that sometimes it seems no one else noticed (though in her case i think it has more to do with peter's loneliness aura disrupting everyone's relationships), and i imagine daisy is permanently controversial in many ways, but i literally cannot think of anything melanie ever truly did 'wrong' other than be rude to people sometimes

[@red_velvet_0w0]

@@MalkuthSephira yeah im in complete agreement with you, but yeah there is a small but vocal part of the fandom that REALLY hates melanie for no reason

[@LouderThanLife7]

I agree so much with what you said! I love Astarion because he doesn't necessarily pretend to care about people and be fake. And I really love that and relate to it. I understand how a lot of his morally "bad" actions can stem from his long history of abuse and how he never had anyone care for him or help him. He isn't the "perfect" victim and doesn't always choose the "morally high ground." And you know what? He shouldn't have to. As a victim, you dont have to take the high road for your experience and feelings to be valid and what happened to you wrong. Yes, it is so important for us to learn more about ourselves and improve through self reflextion and therapy, but you sure as hell wouldn't see that really develop in Astarion's character over the game. He just barely comes close to feeling something close to safety during the game's events. He is still in survival mode, albeit he can be a bit less and more vulnerable depending on how you play. And sure, that doesn't excuse his bad behavior, but it does make you understand a lot more, and it's important for us to understand others and help us on our own healing journies. Those toxic behaviors he has have served him well for hundreds of years and jept him alove, that part of him has saved him in a way. But it is once you are able to get out of those situations that it becomes more important to work on those bejavoirs as they may very well kot serve you anymore and hinder your quality of life. The same goes for a lot of comlkicated characters, and honestly, that's so much more relatable and interesting than just the plain good guy.

[@skulliebythesea]

100%

[@meri0312]

I'm not sure if it's just me or if this was even intentional but I couldn't help but notice how by the time we get to act 3 I didn't get that many "Astarion disapproves" notifications any time I helped someone and he even approved of tav saying that they treat people around them with kindness. I feel like he starts out angry at the whole world for what he went through. He turns his nose up at tav/durge when they help others because no one ever helped him why should he help them. I feel like by act 3 he has at least been able to refocus that anger a little bit so that it's mostly towards Cazador and others like him since in the spawn Astarion epilogue he basically goes around murdering bad people. But this is just my speculation on the character after playing the game a few times

[@dragonfriend6541]

Nope not just you. By the time you get to act 3 his disapproval over good deeds lessens considerably. It's still there a bit, but so much less in comparison, and there's even moments where he'll approve of you being nice and helpful. There is that weird disapproval that pops up if you say you're going to fight Lorroakan with Aylin, which is kind of odd considering everything he says about it mainly suggests he thinks it would be fun to have her decimate him. And then after the fact, if you have already killed Cazador, he shows genuine empathy and sadness for Aylin. Makes me wonder if maybe that disapproval pop up makes more sense for AA, but I don't have the heart for that route so IDK how he responds to it.

[@amandadiamond7147]

Random aside- I'll argue that Gale is being as just manipulative as Astarion when you you first meet them and he's less upfront about it.

[@asexualtrickster]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I feel like with Gale he doesn't realize he's being manipulative (his relationship with Mystra I'm sure has warped his view of what a normal, healthy relationship looks like), vs Astarion 100% knows he's trying to manipulate you because that's literally how he's survived for two hundred years. They're both manipulative in their own way, but one doesn't realize he's doing it (imo), while the other is purposefully doing it because he believes it's the only way to keep himself safe.

[@amandadiamond7147]

@@asexualtrickster I will agree with it definitely coming from his relationship with Mystra and he probably sees it as normal because of that. My own personal HC is that the magic lesson is also how Mystra initially approached him. I'll also grant that I don't think he's doing it to be intentionally malicious. But it's still manipulative, just in a more socially acceptable way.

[@danbongard3226]

Gale's behavior is also even less excusable. My reaction to finding out he would one day blow up like a mini-nuke was to think "and so you decided to spend your time *living in the middle of Waterdeep*"?

[@-satrivana-]

I feel like how people treat characters really shows how we treat people in real life- It seems like so many people today refuse to accept that people are flawed but can change just like the characters we see in our media. Yes you should be allowed to criticize and disassociate from people you don't like but you also have to give them room to change and redeem themselves. You also have to consider the circumstances and past events that may have led to someone doing something bad. But nooooo- people just love to put others in just two boxes, |good| & |bad|, without ever looking back.

[@yeet2252]

Also people seem to acknowledge that people can change in both directions. Someone CAN change to become a worse person due to their traumas just like how that same person has the same capacity to become (quote on quote) "better/stronger" due to their traumas. One's past is a reason, but not an excuse for their actions. Like how many serial killers have abusive upbringings, but even more people have similar or even worse upbringings than them and don't become serial killers.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@yeet2252 this

[@Draegon-tk9dj]

It drives me crazy how in sooo many fandoms, characters with an iota of complexity are somehow vilified, especially if they've done ANYTHING bad in their past. Like god forbid a character have any flaws!

[@chocolatte1997]

It's ridiculous. Most people in real life have flaws, so it makes sense for even protagonists to have flaws as well (and makes for a more interesting story). I think it comes from moral puritanism and cancel culture, where if you've done anything even slightly bad or made a mistake you now regret you should be completely ostracised, even if you've done more good than bad overall (no I am not talking about genuinely serious stuff).

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@chocolatte1997this is the problem with fans who constantly complain about Carmy in The Bear Season 3 because hes awful and regresses and miss that its the whole point, not every person evolves into being better and that real people can be static and regressive also

[@inconsistizzy]

here's a really good example: there's a webtoon called "cry, or better yet, beg" that has the uwu innocent blonde damsel girl trope main character. her love interest ends up being this guy that's a lot older than her, very explicitely abusive, and just overall a really horrible man. he literally r*pes her, and the author STILL decided that, yes, this is a good pairing let's root for them!!! if he's a dark and brooding mysterious hot guy he can do no wrong! he's just misunderstood! i'm not sorry, that is BAD and HARMFUL writing. and sooo many fans try to write him off as misunderstood, or "you don't get it!! it's dark romance!! don't read if you can't handle flawed characters!". my brother in christ that is not just a flawed character, he HONEST TO GOD GETS OFF SCOTT FREE AFTER R*PING THE MAIN CHARACTER. THEY END UP TOGETHER. like that is just bad writing😭

[@gekirobo8720]

I feel like this is the inability/unwillingness to have flawed, morally Grey characters taken to its logical conclusion.

[@inconsistizzy]

@@gekirobo8720 yeah, i think the comic would be absolutely fine if the author actually acknowledged that they were a bad pairing and he is a deplorable character. imagine if the story was about her escaping his abuse! that would be totally fine.

[@thearcanamodernau8130]

I really miss that time in 2010-2015 when we could have deeply fuckep up and and morally grey characters and people didn't get on the moral highhorse on social media preaching that if you like that character you should be erased from existence for being an ammoral pig. It's like digital christian puritanism. And the worst part is that writters themselves are also hoping on this trend where characters who initially were on the grey side turn into plain irredeemable villains or poor, poor little innocent victims who had 0 control of their circumstances and turned out the way they did ALWAYS because of someone else's fault/control, and they genuinely seem to think that taking dimensions from a character is a the most excellent choice 🤡🤡🤡 This extreme villain-victim dichotomy and simplification has taken a lot of the enjoyment I got from a lot of pieces of media.

[@emmasilver2332]

I think it's important to understand that different people can go through the same traumatic event and have it affect them differently. Just because a character didn't react to a situation the same way you would doesn't mean they're not an accurate portrayal, nor does it mean it's a harmful depiction. I was repeatedly sexually assaulted by my boyfriend when I was a teenager. For several years afterwards, I was afraid of getting close to people. Any form of intimacy was extremely triggering for me. My sex drive was almost completely turned off. It took years before I was able to even think about getting into another relationship. And even when I became open to the idea, it had to be with someone who was willing to take things EXTREMELY SLOW. It took a couple more years before I found someone like that who was interested in having a relationship with me. I wasn't even attracted to him at all, but when he asked, I decided to give it a try. He respected my boundaries, he apologized whenever he accidentally triggered a bad memory, he had the patience of a saint. He helped me learn how to trust again. And even though the relationship didn't last, I don't regret a second of it. We're both still friends to this day. And nowadays, my sex drive is still not back to what it was before I was first assaulted. I don't feel attraction at first sight anymore. It takes a lot of time and trust before I can develop those feelings of attraction for a person. Part of the reason why most of the people I'm attracted to are fictional characters. I don't know if that's just some lingering effects of my past trauma that will go away with enough time and therapy or if it's something that's just a part of me now and here to stay. But either way, I'm okay with it. Extra protection against falling for another douchebag I guess. Would I say that my trauma made me stronger? No. It made me hard to get to know. Hard to develop a close relationship with, regardless of if it's plutonic or romantic in nature. But I won't pretend that I haven't been able to reap something good out of it either. If nothing else, I've become more empathetic towards others sharing my plight. And I'm better able to notice the signs of toxic behavior before becoming trapped by it. Would I have been able to learn these things without having to go through what I did? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to know for sure. My first boyfriend absolutely should not have done what he did. But I'm still able to use both of my past relationships as examples. The first of things to avoid, and the second of things to seek out. I have taken back control of my own narrative. And I am using my past experiences to help others take back control of theirs.

[@supercoolmaniajon265]

This reminds of this one short from Chiknuggit. (I forgot the character's name): "Am I bad for liking the bad guy?" Slushi: "Are you condoning or imitating the character's actions?" IDK: "No..." Slushi: "Then it's fine."

[@starflqwers]

You explained it perfectly. An example of that recently could be with Stolas and Blitz from Helluva Boss. From people calling Stolas a hypocrite, when he’s simply unaware and is currently not understanding Blitz’s side, to Blitz being hated simply because he didn’t react well to Stolas confessing to him. They’re both flawed characters with issues. Plus the plot wouldn’t be interesting without conflict 🙏 Thankfully though I see more people understanding them both rather than hating :)

[@manuba_]

Stolas IS hypocritical, that is simply a observation many people have made from the writing of the show. He complains about attitudes he has done in the past and simply acts like he never did them in the first place. and so far the show has not done anything to indicate he is being purposefully framed as hypocritical, it seems to portray him as genuinely the victim in the story, which is where the problem lies. it's poor writing

[@TIGERLOVER1]

​​​@@manuba_Eh, 🤷 Vivziepop, and even the description in the latest episode DOES call out Stolas, saying that he's unaware and stuff or something along those lines. He will face reality at some point.

[@rubyy.7374]

People don’t want their views challenged anymore.

[@falconeshield]

It feels like the HC jokes became serious and I didn't get the memo

[@TemariNaraannaschatz]

You can scrap the anymore. People in general don't want their views challenged. It's a psychological thing and you have to actually work against it to see opposing opinions-which is something most people lack. (I've once had a discussion where the other person didn't believe me about a book, wanted proof, I gave them the proof in form of an interview with the author where they said the exact same thing I said and that person still said I was wrong.)

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@TemariNaraannaschatzexactly, People can’t handle different views, perspectives, question, realities, that are different from theirs or that they can’t relate to or don’t fit in their overgeneralized bubbles. They constantly dismiss other peoples experiences just cause they don’t line up with their own or the majority.

[@dosabella]

from what I’ve seen, it seems like morally grey female characters are more likely to be bastardised and hated as irredeemable villains, while morally grey male characters are more likely to have their actions excused and minimised or praised as making them ‘complex’. of course this isn’t always true - fandoms often try to shove every character into the ‘good’ or ‘bad’ category, but it seems like female characters are way more likely to end up in the ‘bad’.

[@skulliebythesea]

oh 1000%

[@byronsenior6499]

Sums up Walter and Skylar. I wonder if it's because they say statistically more guys consume visual media. And alot of them want to be these awesome male characters.

[@dosabella]

@@byronsenior6499 I haven’t seen breaking bad but from what I heard it’s particularly bad within fans for that show. It’s praised as being one of the best written shows of all time and Walter is praised as a great protagonist, but people seem to hate Skylar with a fiery passion. I’ve noticed the same double standard in other places.

[@byronsenior6499]

@@dosabella The Skylar hate is pretty bad I'll admit. Same with the unironic Walter identification. But it's also very memetic.

[@nicholasmocalis589]

The problem I have when it comes to complex characters like anti heroes, abuse victims that become abusers, abuse victims, or redeemed villains is that all of these character tropes are very difficult to write, require a ton of research into psychology, and need an extensive examination into a characters psychology in order for the persons trauma to be examined effectively while also respecting the characters experiences but I feel that most writers want to take the lazy way out by being subversive instead of putting in the work to examine those characters psychology more thouroughly since they are not experienced in that field. An example of it being done well is Bojack Horseman, Shinji Ikari, Asuka Langley, Revy or Angel Dust while a bad example is Catra and Blitz. The reason Catra and Blitz doesn't work is because for Catra she makes bad decision after bad decision and at the end is expected to be treated well for doing the bare minimum with little or no effort to making a morally correct decision for once with trauma being used as an excuse while also redirecting the audience to blame shadow weaver for all of Catras decisions. Blitz on the other hand does have his trauma examined very well but the reason it doesn't really work is because in the context of his romantic relationships it makes no sense for him to cut off romantic relationships when the source of his trauma was him accidently killing his mother and him being manipulated by his father to be useful to others. How does this convince a person that romantic relationships are not worth it when the source of it is not romantic? Wouldn't his trauma convince Blitz to not pursue any romantic relationship at all but instead avoid contact with others or not date others in the first place but in the show he has no problem with invading other peoples boundaries or dating others so his trauma makes no sense. The reason Bojack Horseman and Angel Dust works is because their trauma makes sense in the context of the narrative, their actions are both sympathetic but are not excused by the narrative since Angel Dust did not enter heaven and Bojack Horseman was called out repeatedly for his misbehavior.

[@Hyzentley]

So agree about Catra (don't know the other one). The problem is not that Catra is a complex character, in fact as the narrative still acknowledged this I still liked her, but that in season five, it is just not pulled off very well. I would have enjoyed her getting an redemption arc and, if done well, with both of them needing a lot of time and effort to mend their relationship, even her ending up with her abuse victim Adora - but like this, the narrative oddly glosses over just how much wrong she did and how much she still needs to grow. Couple that with most of the fandom buying into this glossing over and claiming she did nothing wrong ever - which is just as much flattening a character as saying they are all evil - you get a disaster.

[@nicholasmocalis589]

@@Hyzentley In fact many in the fandom overlook Catras bad decisions because they like that she can get away with everything and look cool while doing it but the problem with that is that she is a villain she is not supposed to be praised as a hero for doing those horrible decisions. I don't get why some people in fandoms wants to make trauma victims only behave like shallow people who don't care about anybody but themselves when there is more to them than that. They also overlook that there are others ways to grow a character besides redemption like self respect.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@nicholasmocalis589 I just hate when a despicable antihero or villain does awful things, and it’s just excuse for it or fans and audience justify it cause they had a sad backstory, I’ve seen Fenton audiences be very double standard about these things

[@krysbingham2501]

I also truly hate when people clock a character wrong, they woobify the crap out of them and baby them but when they're shown to do something that goes against that perception, there's a massive outcry that they 'changed the character out of spite'. This has happened with Stella from Helluva Boss and Jax from TADC. And this is just the issue of fandoms and speculation. People project and theorize so hard that they just refuse to see how it is until the narrative shows it and because they have failed to understand, it comes as a surprise. And its surprising and frustrating that this is a norm considering how much information is free flowing. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@krysbingham2501 this is why I cant always get behind “this character is acting out of character just because they did some thing I didn’t agree with, or relate to order it made me uncomfortable”

[@Anti-heroine91]

I did start to like Chloe from Miraculous Ladybug in the middle seasons. (Before her redemption arc was completely ruined.) This was after not being able to stand her in S1 because all she did was get people akumatized. Chloe slowly started to have growth, even with treating Sabrina better, and she was no longer insufferable for me to see on screen.

[@Zach-Reacts]

2:33 nobody IRL ever makes the most rational, logical or emotional choice every time. It's easy to watch from omniscient perspective and think "I wouldn't have made that choice and I know" Bro you're not in your shoes. Like it's weird how a lot of people love redemption arcs and yet forget that an arc has a starting point in an endpoint. They want the endpoint without the work from the starting point.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@Zach-Reacts sadly that pov is objectified alot that if a character does something irrational that means they are a bad and unrealistic character

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@Zach-Reacts sadly that pov is objectified alot that if a character does something irrational that means they are a bad and unrealistic character and not “human”

[@versus22REALLY]

I’ve been noticing people villainizing literally the writers of some of these shows mainly Hazbin hotel had to listen to a guy go off because a guy had an angel dust PFP about the show and it’s sister show glorify abusive relationships. Guy literally said that all the relationships are the exact same level of abuse.

[@amethystimagination3332]

Yeah people are insane about Hazbin Hotel for no reason. Like, I’m not saying you have to like it or anything but why are you wasting so much time on a show and a person you don’t even like?

[@versus22REALLY]

@@amethystimagination3332 the main thing they have this from 2012. Which A I don't even care what happened in my own life, B The two people involved have requested people to drop it from my research into it.

[@amethystimagination3332]

@@versus22REALLY I’m sure they would love it if a bunch of strangers kept whining about your worst moments from when they were 19. Nobody ever makes stupid choices at 19

[@versus22REALLY]

@@amethystimagination3332 it's probably the main thing I find super disgusting in the actions of the Anti fans

[@AirQuotes2962]

One time my brother said Glinda was a villain in Wicked because she didn't go with Elphaba and chose popularity over actually doing what was right. Like dude. Man. Bro. THAT IS THE POINT! One of the main points of the musical is Glinda's character arc and growth. Being flawed and making the wrong choice doesn't make her a villain.

[@gobbiwasabi]

I am so grateful for your videos damn what insightful takes

[@skulliebythesea]

Thank you so much! This is the sweetest comment

[@HidingFromFish]

As a death note enjoyer, I am fascinated by the fact that people need to be told this

[@akisatsuki8444]

To be fair, I deplore Light with every fiber of my being. He’s a great character, don’t get me wrong, but I’d very much like to shove him into a trash compactor

[@falconeshield]

​@@akisatsuki8444Me too. Great Shakespearan character. Modern Griffth trash

[@Show_Night581]

I feel like a good example of this is Marcy from Amphibia. I'm sick of the fandom either treating her like a horrible person or acting like she did nothing wrong. She has her flaws, but the flaws aren't the whole point of her character

[@Lazy_Gay_Man]

Yeah. She was just an anime kid who wanted to be Isekai’d. Hell, I’d do the same in her situation.

[@themission.0]

I firmly believe "maybe the curtains were just fucking blue" has rotted peoples brains and ability to read into characters, story plots and symbolism in stories.

[@mk-aka-morgan8386]

THANK YOU OMG 👏👏👏 Of course I've gone through phases where I'll be annoyed seeing people enjoying flawed characters when I don't... When I was in middle school 🤨 With how big Rage Bait is, it makes me wonder if it's been affecting peoples ability to self-regulate emotions and it's scaring me seeing so much negativity online constantly

[@Null_Skull06]

I haven’t watched the video yet but by the title alone I can already tell you I agree 100%! I’m so tired of ppl pretending they’re all high and mighty, like having a perfect character is boring as shit! I especially feel this way about Evan from Dear Evan Hansen. Bro has anxiety and depression, and is honestly barely functioning. I relate so much to him and I can easily see myself making the same mistake as him in the musical. It pisses me off when people are like “he’s the real villain”, when the WHOLE POINT of deh is that he is his own worst enemy. People make mistakes, get over it. He’s a sympathetic character and I feel for him. He didn’t intentionally manipulate anyone, he just didn’t know how to explain himself after he got too deep in his lie. He’s HUMAN, and people tend to forget that good writing means making characters with flaws. Sorry for the rant lol

[@Sofia-wh9jr]

I don't remember much from DEH, a friend of mine was a big fan and I listened to her talk about it, but I remember the fandom going craazy over Connor. It's funny how people idealize and fawn over a character that appears like what...2 times maybe? I guess it's easear to make up a perfect character for you than to understand the characters that are already there, like Evan.

[@shawnsegebarth6707]

Bruh, people actually think Evan is a villain???? He was caught in a really awkward position, like what was he supposed to say? "Oh, yeah your son and I were never friends, in fact he was a bit of a douche"?

[@Meganeura_monyi1218]

I think the way people see Evan has changed over the last few years, or at least the people I talk to. When the play was getting really popular, the conversation was all about how Evan has anxiety and his decisions are relatable and the story's messages need to be heard. After the movie came out, I started hearing chatter again and it was all "manipulative" this and "sociopath" that. I didn't like the character much to begin with (the songs slap, of course; I just got really frustrated because I didn't understand how the initial lie was the "easy" option) but even I think the fandom has gone too far in a weird direction.

[@jackqueslack2339]

I forgot where I found it but I once saw something on a thread where someone was talking about the fact that they hated a fictional character so much, that is was negatively impacting their life and making them bitter. I just felt like sharing this because of how many people needlessly are enraged by these characters

[@bradlewis261]

Though she wasn't talked about, this reminds me of how people love to villainize Wanda and her actions in Wandavision, even when why she did what she did was plainly spelled out for the audience.

[@alien777]

I did not like that, Rambo sayed what you gave up for them! That ruind everything in the Show for me. Rambo Showed that she could care less for the downsfolk, that are the victims of Wanda. What did she gave up, an illusion. That was realy bad. Without that it would have been way better, by Wanda being more horrified by what she did. I liked Agatha, she was fun, i want to know more about her story, and we get a show, i hope it is better.

[@TemariNaraannaschatz]

@@alien777 She gave her compassion. Why people didn't get that is beyond me. Wanda gave up being happy in live. Sure they were illusions but up until very shortly before this she didn't even know that. To her all of it was real. Imagine you'd live your life and suddently get told it's all just an illusion and you have to give all that makes you happy up because you're hurting others. Wanda didn't do this on purpose-which of course doesn't mean what she did was in any way acceptable, but she didn't want to hurt anyone. And she did the right thing after she found out about it and gave up her happyness, her life to do the right thing. Would you not want someone to understand that this is actually a very hard thing to do?

[@alien777]

@@TemariNaraannaschatz your aroganz is beyond me. I absolutly get it, it just was not portraid in a way i like that storyarc, becouse it not new or original, and i actualy like that arc very much.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

⁠@@TemariNaraannaschatz I think the problem was mainly because of the way they worded/framed it. Someone else says to Wanda; “They’ll never know what You sacrificed” as if she’s the only victim in this situation, and all the other victims she’s perpetuating the cycle of pain on don’t matter at all.

[@manuba_]

being given the explanation to her actions doesn't mean she's supposed to be in the right... all villains need to have a motivation, that doesn't make them less of a villain. We know WHY Thanos did all that stuff, he's still wrong and the villain, despite us understanding what drove him to do that

[@maeve615]

That which didn't kill me only made me irrevocably stranger and less accepted in society... I hate when SA gets used as a shock effect. I'm a writer, so whenever I create a character for a TTRPG campaign, I invariably end up writing a short story for their background. One of my characters, her backstory is a blatant allegory for SA.. and how dehumanizing it felt. It flew over the heads of the other people in that campaign, and they never connected the dots that her behaviours, sleeping in hidden in hard to reach spots, always noting ways of exiting rooms when first entering, the 0 to murderous when touched without permission, or her 'blue & orange morality' were a result of what happened to her (or that these 'quirks' came from personal experience ). There was only one person that sort of understood that the charter's quest to get her antlers re-attached/healed wasn't just a cosmetics/aesthetics thing.

[@akisatsuki8444]

She legitimately sounds so interesting! If you wrote a story about this person I’d totally read it tbh

[@HelghastTrooper]

"The vibe I was getting from society was: you don't have to be insane to kill someone. You just have to think you're right." - Yoko Taro

[@montagoose]

Every single character mentioned/in the image are literally my favorite characters from each show. Dont you love it when you learn that people hate your fav.

[@lilhonor5425]

Alicent is probably my favorite character in House of the Dragon because of her flaws and complexity. I think her conflict with Rhaenrya and the way their lives contrast and diverge is one of the best parts of the story. But I’ve seen this pattern of just disregarding Alicent’s perspective/experiences and painting her as a wholly villainous character in the fandom. It reminds me of a lot of the hate towards Sansa Stark, especially early on in the fandom.

[@stares_mthrfckrly]

I personally didn’t like her because I wish she would grow a back bone (which I’m glad she is now), but I certainly like her more than Daemon, who is currently “the guy would can do no wrong” and it gets on my nerves. Like he didn’t prey upon Rhaenyra since she was a child and then literally the last episode of the 1st season, bro tried to choke her out. But OH HANDSOME REBEL GUY!! Stop it. 🙄

[@irondragonmaiden]

Not really, the narrative does everything possible to go all "oh, you poor baby girl" and never has her called out for her shit. If anything, it's made even more annoying when they try to contrive Rhaenyra going to meet her and still give her chances after a LITERAL USURPATION THAT LEAD TO HER SON'S MURDER. Alicent is a horrible character because the show wants to woobiefy her while still keeping her plot points, which were done by an Alicent that was openly power hungry and had agency. Seriously, the fact that Rhaenyra hasn't already decided that Alicent is dead to her just for the Red Walk alone is unrealistic. If anything, the narrative gives her too much leeway by not having Rhaenyra have a moment where she snaps and decides enough is enough and Alicent is dead to her, because it is not Rhaenyra's responsibility to put up with Alicent's bullshit. Trauma might make you harder to deal with, but that doesn't mean other people are obligated to put up with you, especially when you go out of your way to be an asshole to someone or worse. At least in the original books, the Alicent who wanted power had agency and was consistent. Rhaenyra rightfully hated her for the abuse she put her through as a child after she married Viserys and Alicent rather obviously started a ratfucking campaign and harassed Rhaenyra in her own home, which, yeah. That is how characters healthily react towards someone who abuses them and fights back. No matter how you look at it, the benign sexism of trying to woobiefy Alicent the Phyllis Schlafly in HotD is just bad writing, especially when the bad writing makes other characters make zero sense (again, Rhaenyra looks braindead in still giving Alicent the time of day, since even if we ignore her actual canon personality which has her raging and having a great deal of disdain for Alicent due to all the abuse she endured at her stepmother's hands, even a traditional Cinderella character wouldn't want anything to do with Alicent after the Red Walk). It's just bad writing to try to make the audience feel sorry for her by having the person she is going out of her way to usurp forgive her and still give her the time of day. Seriously, you could feel for Theon Greyjoy, in comparison, because while you could understand that the Starks (bar Robb) kind of had it coming for him not to be loyal to them because the hostage system IS fucked up (and, no, they don't get to complain about Sansa becoming one when they themselves participated in such a system by keeping Theon captive and being ready to kill him), members like Bran et al have a right to be angry at him and for things to be tense. (Granted, the show still fucked it up by making Theon want to be a Stark... when that was NEVER HIS FUCKING ARC, his arc was about finding himself outside of Houses and about finding humanity in other people by saving "inconsequential/unimportant" Jeyne Poole because no one deserves to be tortured). Part of the pathos comes from the fact that, in-universe, many of the people he wronged don't forgive him. And that's OK. Meanwhile, you have the hacks in HotD who, through benign sexism, don't want to let Rhaenyra act like a normal person and get angry and want nothing to do with Alicent for her actions. That doesn't help their case, it just makes Alicent and her pity party annoying and even more hypocritical than usual.

[@assadsvengeance9952]

​@@irondragonmaidenin the show rhaenyra flip flops between cersei lite(wanting to use "enhanced interrogation techniques" on her brother(aemond) after her bastards attacked him unprovoked and mutilated him then saying alicent was the bad guy for defending her son from the monster(rhaenyra) ) and something akin to early GoT sansa who's incredibly naive and indecisive(letting daemon do whatever he wants without any regards to chain of command) and that's not even bringing up how irresponsible and unfit to rule she is, some people hate her but I don't because she's a product of her environment and upbringing and a generally interesting character but the fact that so many people see her as an awesome girlboss who can do no wrong despite everything we've seen is mind boggling

[@LilacSreya]

​@@irondragonmaiden .

[@LilacSreya]

​@@assadsvengeance9952 .

[@Itachi45481]

Declining media literacy is definitely a factor but yeah your right the audience do tend to go overboard

[@technojunkie123]

The sheer amount of vitriol against Alicent Hightower in HOTD (especially in season 1) was insane to me because she was such a greatly written morally complex character - of course she did the things she did out of a misaligned sense of duty because she was raised her entire life to be a pawn for political power in a world where women had little agency

[@abigailaceves9230]

I’m sorry for what you’ve gone through. It must’ve been hard for you to share. Thanks for this video.

[@skulliebythesea]

Thank you for your kindness and thank you for being here :)

[@nessyness5447]

I am sorry someome called aziraphale evil??? What? His problem is precisely that he is too good and optimistic for his own and everyone elses's good

[@miacarvalho8732]

Exactly. I love him

[@AJollyspace]

I absolutely love morally grey/gray characters their complexity and the way they think to me is simply really intriguing. In fact almost all my Ocs are pretty complex

[@falcon_arkaig]

I want to bring up two characters that I really love (one who's in the thumbnail). Aziraphale is one of my favorite characters of all time. I remember when Season 2 came out and suddenly people were acting like he was this horrible irredeemable person for leaving Crowley for Heaven. I understand how some people feel, of course, but I think we NEED to remember that the top dogs of Heaven have been manipulating Aziraphale for thousands of years. He sees them as "good" even though they bully him regularly. I cannot blame him for choosing the position of Archangel instead of Crowley, he wants to improve Heaven and thinks being Archangel is the only way. But some people paint him now as a bad guy bc they hurt Crowley (by far the most popular character in Good Omens). Two. Bakugo Katsuki. He started off as this horrible bully to the Main Character (Deku). I did hate him when I first started the anime because he was a completely awful person. Though as the anime went on and I started reading the Manga I started to like him. He's a complex character with many deep insecurities. Nothing will erase his bad actions, but people forget he's just a kid. He was a little kid when he started bullying Midoryia and he didn't know any better. Nobody told him bullying a Quirkless kid was wrong. He hates Midoryia because he was jealous basically, seeing this Quirkless loser (his own words lol) still wanting to be a Hero. And some people tend to ignore all his development and just generalize him as "horrible bully to Midoryia" as if Midoryia didn't forgive Bakugo. As if they aren't friends now. As if Shigiraki literally didn't say that Bakugo and Midoryia are best friends, killing Bakugo as to hurt Midoryia (which worked).

[@justacat869]

I just found this video, and thank you for voicing my thoughts. I faced these issues recently with a character who initially aligns himself with a group with questionable actions and justifies it as a pragmatic decision, saying he doesn't like them, but the benefits that they offer are worth it. He is warned by other characters that this is a dangerous decision, and he should be careful not to become like them, but he just does his own thing. Then, because of them, someone close to him dies, and he has to watch helplessly because he is conflicted about his allegiances and worried about his safety if he turns on them. But they slowly start treating him like a puppet, and he retaliates, motivated by grief and revenge and he ends up hurting innocents in the process too because he believes that it's "what he has to do" and he doesn't realise how far he's gone and how he started resembling the people he despised until the end when his ruthless and self-serving actions cannot be erased anymore. But people were outraged and treated him as the devil incarnate because some of his victims were liked by the fans. Some of them even attacked me personally for my decisions, even if I never claimed that I condone his actions and this is pretty much the "he who fights monsters" trope where a character goes down a dark path, becoming like the people they oppose.

[@byronic0967]

Trauma does not excuse the horrible things you do to others and traumatize them in return. This is so wild to me. Yes. It might be understandable where this behaviour comes from. Still. It is still YOUR CHOICE how to treat others around you.

[@noahsart-4]

You called me out with the Entrapta and Hordak clips, the she-ra fandom was WILD. I’m pretty sure I got called a fascist by a stranger cus I said I enjoyed watching Hordak and his character arc 🏃🏼

[@Hyzentley]

They deserved so much better from the fandom. The ableism, biphobia, double standards and just general lack of media literacy was WILD.

[@Mugsycup]

Being honest it’s ok to like a character even if they have flaws. because news flash ppl everybody has flaws. so it’s ok to like people even though they have stuff to work on and it’s not always the writing key word NOT.

[@MrObsidian101]

Wow you absolutely ate here!!! ❤I had a similar experience when watching Yellowjackets and a lot of people were commentating that they would never resort to such barbaric acts to survive in the wilderness. When they can’t seem to insert themselves properly into the fictional landscape and resist the need to stand morally superior.

[@nordinreecendo512]

Character: [kills someone] Character: "Maybe violence is bad." Audience: "This story glorifies murder."

[@sigriddaaemland8486]

Albus Dumbledore in the Harry Potter fandom, is an example of this phenomenon. Like, he becomes less of a wise, kind, all-knowing grandfather, and more of a complex, business-like, conspiring, frail, old man, with a darker side still to him, from his youth, during the series. But I will never be able to understand the amount of hate his character receives in the fandom. The main difference between Dumbledore, and Grindelwald, or Voldemort, was that he reformed his beliefs after his sister died because of them, whereas Grindelwald has no moral issues killing a baby, or who knows how many non-magical people, as he basically preached wizard nazism, where wizards were superior to muggles. The difference between him and Dumbledore, was that where the reality of being guilty for a death was too much for young Dumbledore, it did little to Grindelwald's conscience, as he continued on with his terror for decades. And young Voldemort/Tom Riddle straight up murdered his father and paternal grandparents, blamed the murders on his uncle, and remembered the act as one of the proudest moments of his life. While Dumbledore was pained by guilt, grief and remorse for his sister's death for the rest of his life. And still, his brother Aberforth would never forgive him for the death of Ariana. So saying that "Dumbledore was as evil, cold, and calculated as Voldemort" is taking it a bit too far imao. Was he perfect? Absolutely not. He engaged with nazi-like ideologies a few months as a teen, to horrible familial consequences. And made many morally questionable decisions later in life, both as Headmaster of Hogwarts, and as Harry's primary guardian. The Dursleys, who would put an orphaned baby with THEM of all people, without an explanation given personally before 14 years later? (This one is partly on Petunia too, as she should have told Harry about the blood protection living with her, his mother's sister and only living blood relative, gave him against this evil wizard who killed Harry's parents, (which she and Vernon lied about!), and was almost guaranteed to return sooner or later, with Harry as his prime target, way before the events of the first book, but I digress.) And why hire Gilderoy Lockhart to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts, when he can't even defend himself against Cornish Pixies? In fact, the only things that clown of a man was good for is boasting, lying, and showing off, often to scandalous effects (remember the vanished, broken bones in Harry's arm). But for all the neglect, and abuse even, Harry endured at the Dursleys, he was safer from Voldemort there than anywhere else, and didn't grow up as a celebrity with a big head, as he probably would have ended up doing in the wizarding world. "The boy who lived", the one who made Voldemort disappear as only a one-year-old baby, (at least temporary), "The chosen one", and all that. As the older Dumbledore wisely said "it would be enough to make any child go mad. Famous for something he can't remember. Famous before he can walk and talk". It's also a popular fan theory, that Lockhart was hired in order to be revealed, and to "teach the kids how NOT to be". That's all good and well. Negative role models can be a thing too I suppose. But what about the academic quality of the education, which after all is a school's main task? Or, the general security of Hogwarts? Then there is the critique of Dumbledore "raising Harry as a pig for slaughter" in order to defeat Voldemort, and generally "the end justifies the means" -thinking. While that may be true in a technical sense, with Voldemort having a horcrux inside Harry (the scar on his forehead that occasionally burns and gives visions, the ability to speak parseltounge, the "mind connection"), what other choices did Dumbledore have? Sit comfortably, look away, and watch passively as Voldemort slowly infested the wizarding world with his servants, ideology, and terror, or strategically prepare their best hope to defeat Voldemort? The former was what Minister Fudge chose, and history will not remember him fondly for it. It was just luck that Voldemort was so determined to use Harry's blood to return to a physical life form in Goblet of Fire, and by doing that, he made sure Lily's sacrificial protection lived on in the resurrected body, even after Harry was of age. But even if Harry had not survived the killing curse a second time in the forest in Deathly Hallows, Neville would still have killed Nagini, the last Horcrux, effectively making Voldemort a mortal man for the first time in decades. This just showcases how important Dumbledore's planning was in defeating the big baddie. Sacrifices has to be made in order to win a war, like it or not. There are, as mentioned in this way too long comment, many things to criticize Dumbledore for. But I feel like many Potterheads forgets that, however talented, he was just human too. And a character can have both admirable traits, real feats and virtues, as well as a dark past, with morally grey actions to his/her name, without being "worse than the villain he/she was fighting". Actually the "complex good" characters are way more interesting and realistic than the typical "saint-like protagonists" imao.

[@SpaceandGoats]

This! This so much! I cannot understand the Dumbledore bashing fics so much. It’s the same for the Snape Hate. The people who want to rewrite Albus Severus Potter’s name. I dislike a lot about Harry Potter and do think half the hate comes from poor writing

[@chickensox8318]

Good example I have is Silco from Arcane. Amazing villain aside, whenever I try to mention the fact that despite all the bad in him, he is an extremely loving and supportive father, which shows how well written of a villain he is, I get stares. Like, Im not saying he's a good father, Im not justifying all the evil he does, I'm just praising complexity. A villain can have virtues, and a hero can have flaws. I wouldn't even say it makes them grey, not really, just not pure black and white. Another one is Sokka's sexism in ATLA. Its not great in the show, its a flaw he has for 4 episodes and gets over in like 3 scenes (Mostly), but as a concept its a fascinating flaw with a very meaningful arc. I appreciate when a sexist, racist or otherwise biggoted character can move past the biases instilled by their environment and become a better person. But the Live Action Avatar show cut it. Which would be whatever, save for the constant marketing as being a "More mature retelling", as if violence and hopelessness are what make a story mature.

[@stur3366]

I have to disagree about Silco being a good father. He was actively enforcing jinx's behavior and ended up making her more mentally damaged. Him calling her perfect as she is, when she has god knows how many mental illnesses, is not being a good father.

[@tabekes]

​​@@stur3366 i'm pretty sure you misread their comment, cause they're not calling him a good father, they're saying that he clearly loves jinx a lot. which he does, even though their relationship and his treatment of her isn't healthy. that's part of what makes him a complex character. edit: or maybe i'm misunderstanding the og commenters intention. i guess i wouldn't exactly call Silco supportive, but he kind of is, in his own f*cked up way.

[@manuba_]

​@stur3366 Silco has similar untreated trauma as Jinx, he believes he knows hot to help her because he relates to her pain. In the end he's not a GOOD father because he needs to get help himself, but he he is the best father he CAN be, as in he genuinely does everything he believes is necessary to help her, the problem is he's wrong about his methods, very wrong.... but the bittersweet part is his love and care are 100% real

[@Doombot221]

Love the discourse on this, it has been interesting watching so much of the discussions around different characters in BG3 as it relates to this topic (Astarion, certain comments here and there by Wyll, etc)

[@DillyTheWillyWilliams]

Most of these people havent ever met real people. Never leave their house

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@DillyTheWillyWilliams actually, they have believe it or not

[@talscorner3696]

The "If you like X character or universe, you're a terrible person" thing is a trend that can't die soon enough. I am known in my friends' circles for being someone who generally doesn't really let others' opinions get under their skin too much, but having to deal with such, really, childish reactions does take its toll xD

[@talscorner3696]

Specifically about Astarion, I loved to despise him through my own character and this is yet another reason why I think the writers did such a good job with him, imo.

[@WhyAreAllTagsTaken]

Another notable character who is treated like this by the fandom is Six from Little Nightmares. (Spoilers for Little Nightmares btw. You’ve been warned) At the end of Little Nightmares II Six betrays Mono, leaving him in the Signal Tower and escaping on her own. People were SO quick to demonize and hate on her because of this without looking at her side of the story. To the players, Six was Mono’s friend and saw Mono as her “savior”. But to Six, Mono is just a companion who she met in the woods after accepting her fate in the Hunter’s Cabin. Mono betrayed her trust *multiple* times so she left him behind because she saw him as a threat to her survival. I think one of the biggest reasons people think this way about Six is because to us, all of our actions can be justified. Since we are playing as Mono, we see ourselves as the good guy even though we did some very unnecessary bad stuff. But if you put yourself in Six’s shoes, you can see that she has so many reasons for her “evil and malicious” actions. For one, people get at Six for running away from Mono when they first meet which I totally get. Imagine you’re a nine year old child who was thrown into a monster’s basement, about to be turned into taxidermy (which Six seemed to be pretty content with. She knew she was doomed and had accepted it), and suddenly a random kid covering his face breaks the door down and tries to take you away? I’d run too! (I’m not saying that Six was better off in the cabin, because she wasn’t. She was just more content with her death in that moment). Six is also villainized for killing one porcelain bully because “it was unnecessarily violent”. But people need to take into consideration why she was so violent towards it. She had previously been kidnapped and tormented by these things, of course she would be angry and want to take revenge!! People also casually gloss over the fact that Mono killed well over 20 of them, some of which could’ve been avoided. Breaking the mannequin hands? Children get bored! Six was waiting for Mono to return with the fuse and since there was nothing she could do to help, she found her own way of having fun. Burning the doctor alive? She didn’t even do it! She shut the door on the incinerator to trap the doctor because she was scared! Mono pulled the lever. Her sitting in front of the fire right after? If you were a child in this world, you would understand that these children don’t know when or if they’ll seen warmth again. Of course she’s going to take advantage of the opportunity. And dropping Mono down the tower? Mono had just destroyed her music box, her only escape from the harsh world they are trapped in. She saw this and knew the destruction could happen to her and left. Should she have done it? Not necessarily. But I understand why she did it. In conclusion, Six is seen as the villain because she did some bad things. But in reality, she’s actually a really great example of a morally grey character who’s just trying her best to survive in a torturous world. (If you couldn’t tell I might like Little Nightmares)

[@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose]

Not sure what else I could add after all those amazing comments you showed off, so I'll offer my own agreements. Yes, I think a morally grey character can sometimes be the most interesting aspect of story, because it can be quite investing to see where they're willing to cross the line in one area but hold back in another. *However,* I have also seen in some cases where a character is called "morally grey" and supposed to be rooted for as a supposed love interest, but they're out here doing things like stalking and/or kidnapping the protagonist or making threats towards their loved ones, then there's some excuse to be made for "Oh no wait they're not evil because they did it to protect the protag" or whatever. I absolutely think we should be able to engage with flawed characters without our ethics being questioned. One of my top fandoms is "The Phantom of the Opera," after all. But I find that it can be easier to root for morally grey character(s), in a fantasy/sci-fi/dystopian/historical setting rather than a contemporary one, because when it veers too close to our present-day reality, it's a lot harder not to wonder, "How can [main character] possibly be okay with this?" I've especially noticed this in the so-called "dark romance" genre.

[@skulliebythesea]

I actually have a video on this already if you're interested in hearing me talk about it more. This is a difficult line to walk, because again, there's nothing wrong with engaging in fantasy, as long as you're able to separate it from reality.

[@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose]

@@skulliebythesea Hee hee, I've actually seen and commented on that video previously, thank you, and you're right. It certainly is a difficult line to walk, and it's part of the reason why I want to offer my own two cents on it at some point soon, based on personal fandom experience and from review essays I've watched on "certain" books. Long story short: it's far easier to separate fantasy from reality than it is contemporary from reality.

[@StapledArsonist]

People shit shit on the LOV in MHA because of their actions without understanding as to what lead them there and ignoring the fact that other 'good' characters have done the same things.

[@shawnsegebarth6707]

Oh yes. People always forget that Iida was straight up ready to KILL SOMEONE. Not maim or permanently injure, KILL. And he's one of the good guys. I love Iida, but people always gloss over his man hunt for Stain (who was right, by the way, I said what I said).

[@bessieburnet9816]

Those who are like "but Dabi is a murderer!" But bend over backwards to claim Endeavour feeling bad absolves him of his horrific abuse.

[@shawnsegebarth6707]

@bessieburnet9816 Fr though. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't put Dabi in the good guy category but I feel like Endeavor is worse.

[@SpinfoilHat]

As a horror writer, I feel this, especially when people try to make the person enjoying/writing the piece of media out to be a bad person like it's glorifying x and y. Like just because I write Michael Myers doing violent things that it means I glorify murder, or worse, that I want to go out and murder people! I'll never understand this line of thinking! I like media that makes me feel emotions because I am so wrapped up in the story. I like horror that actually gets under my skin and makes me uncomfortable. I basically saw Silent Hill and never came back because I enjoyed the blood and rust so much. It feels like someone telling me that I am dangerous because I ride roller coasters and like the adrenaline of going fast so I must break ALL the road rules and speed like a bat out of hell when I am driving when I don't even have a driver's license.

[@princeapoopoo5787]

what's wild is being a huge fan of a character who is wildly disliked for being either "too boring/too nice" or for hyperfixating immensely on his flaws. Its like the exact inverse of this video. 😂

[@temin2776]

You know, there is the opposite problem. When the characters are declared to be morally gray, but at the same time they are much more unambiguous than they seem. Strangely enough, it seems to me that in fact an ambiguous character can exist only when there are concepts of good and evil in the story itself. If there is neither evil nor good, then the character is not ambiguous. He's just like everyone else, just in different circumstances. We just won't have anything to compare it with, we can't say what he is better or worse at if there are no criteria by which we judge him. I don't like the very denial of the existence of good and evil. Circumstances affect us, but we can make choices as long as we can be aware of ourselves.

[@modtheartifex9785]

as someone who loves looking at characters critically and arranging their stories like puzzle pieces to see how psychological ramifications could affect actions, especially if we know and see a characters past, its invigorating, a fun thought experiment, how does the river flow when you change its direction etc etc. and my most on the mind example is in lego monkie kid In lego monkie kid, a show that recently got its 5th season has a lot of villainous characters, who the fandom loves. and none have been as divisive from what ive seen as Azure lion Spoilers for season 4 of the show if anyone hasnt seen it/wants to go in spoiler free. fandom discussion around this character is extremely mixed. people either hate or love him, and some who do hate him write him off entirely as a bad person. (personally i feel the show itself also misunderstood him, however that is a personal gripe and wont be focusedo n here) for context, azure lion is an idealist who wants to create a better world without gods who sit around partying and ignoring their people (humans), and has blind optimism about everything working out. he is smart and intelligent, but cannot entirely see how killing the jade emperor (the main god of chinese mythos) could go wrong. answer, a lot of things go wrong, both in the past and at the time of the show. what people ignore that between the past and the present there was a HUGE timeskip, which would mean azure is going through everything far more desperately, and with reduced allies to his cause. and somehow the popular fanon is that Azure lion groomed son wukong, or the monkey king. they mean this not in any sexual way, but in a way of "ohhh azure manipulated wukong into doing bad shit", and treat him worse than a fandom wide hated (love to hate)(hated for actions loved for what she is for the story etc) character Lady Bone Demon, and it is frustrating, because with this the fandom ignores the nuances of azure lion and makes him Bad, Evil, Downright Horrendous, while wukong, another grey and flawed character is Woobified, Poor Baby, Cant do anything wrong (when all of the show is. essentially. righting wukongs wrongs.)

[@wtfbonzo5025]

I think it comes from a place of wanting to seem flawless and perfect and we mirror ourselves to these characters

[@merobiba413]

yeah, i've definitely seen people get upset when a character they project onto does something morally questionable. Because they see themselves in the character, they might feel personally attacked if the character does something they don't approve of.