We Don't Need Zavok | Characters In-Depth

[@jamareonballard2600]

Zavok: "You incompetent fools. I can not trust you with the simplest tasks." Said every cliché villain ever

[@kirbytheartist3318]

What makes it even funnier is when you realize that he has vary little reason to yell to the other Zeti that line.

[@jamalhartley5863]

Travis Willingham kinda let his Thor slip in on that line.

[@MrSplashMan0]

I can not trust you with the simplest task must be the writers of sa2 talking to the writers of forces

[@donathan2933]

@@MrSplashMan0 true

[@donathan2933]

@Filippo Contigiani I dunno he all over the place

[@r3n3gad33]

I don't understand why Sega needs a Bowser when they already have Eggman.

[@WhiteDarkness3113]

Isn't eggman litteraly sonic's bowser

[@jasondavis2381]

@@WhiteDarkness3113 He's kinda more like Sonic's Dr. Wily

[@rainpooper7088]

White Darkness Nah, he’s more like Sonic’s Fawful.

[@lpfan4491]

@@rainpooper7088 Metal sonic is fawful except that he is not funny.

[@masenmeans5893]

@disabled account I'm a huge Sonic fan, and I HELLA disagree with that

[@lagartopunkarra]

Bowser: Is a big doofus and good parent, is lovable despite being the villain. Zavok: Idiot that accomplishes nothing and doesn't have remarkable redeeming qualities.

[@megapokesonicx]

Unlike Zavok, Bowser is actually a cool and competent villain and also a good father. Also Ruby of Blue is an awesome guy, I love his Sonic Adventure videos and ProJared rebuttal.

[@eslm-studios2996]

Heck, Bowser even owned up to his son that he lied to him about Peach when Mario beat them in Sunshine!

[@labronthesuperninjayasin2203]

Bowser is not a competent villain it is common knowledge that he is all muscle no brains unlike zavok.

[@eslm-studios2996]

@@labronthesuperninjayasin2203 The Mario & Luigi games would say otherwise.

[@labronthesuperninjayasin2203]

@@eslm-studios2996 those are spinoffs and I have not played them. So what does he do in theses games that prove he is actually somewhat Competent?

[@rainpooper7088]

Labronthesuperninja Yasin Unlike other evil overlords, Bowser also cares for his minions, even the lower class ones like Goombas genuinely adore him rather than just follow his orders out of fear. When they get captured in BIS, Bowser isn’t like „You incompetent FOOLS, why couldn’t you defend my castle properly??!!!1!!“, he’s like „How dare that Fawful lock up my minions? I gotta get them out of there and kick his ass!“ While it’s likely not a strategic choice on his part, this is a pretty smart move to prevent rebellion despite constant failures. He also seems to have a pretty good instinct when it comes to hiring help. Especially the Koopalings in the Mario&Luigi remakes are a great example of a competent, loyal miniboss squad that can operate on its own if he needs them to. And most importantly, while Bowser fails a lot, often epically so, he never ever gives up. Every single time he gets wrecked, he gets back on his feet and tells himself that maybe Mario won the battle, but he refuses to let him win the war. Of course he will never actually be able to win because the franchise would be over if he did, but the attitude is admirable nonetheless and it’s kind of why Bowser as a character works so well whenever there is an actual story. It’s not really about him succeeding, it’s about watching him try. Whenever Bowser gets wrecked, I want to see what he‘ll try next time, just like with Eggman. When Zavok got wrecked in Lost World, I was hoping that I would never have to deal with him again.

[@PuffyKoko]

I swear they're milking Zavok because they can't make any good villains. Infinite was missed potential so they keep on shoving red bowser.

[@megapokesonicx]

Hello, I think I know you from somewhere.

[@PuffyKoko]

@@megapokesonicx You do, it's me Koko from Twitter.com lmao

[@PuffyKoko]

@@jjayrichardsfilms Yes

[@HarmonyBunny]

They also used to shove Zazz in spinoffs.

[@lpfan4491]

Even then, I rather take the pathetic edgeboi. Because it at least would have made sense for him to be in team sonic racing.

[@saltystick_99]

I feel like Zavok, or the entire Deadly Six for that matter, could've fit for a Ristar reboot/sequel. Think about it A strange planet nobody heard of full of strange environments, and is terrorized by 6 deadly creatures nobody heard of, but have incredible power. It could've been a good pitch for a Kid Icarus Uprising esque Ristar return. Not to mention aesthetically they look like they belong with Ristar more than Sonic.

[@patrickmendoza9854]

I hate that

[@alexbaribeault]

Damn it... I would have played that.

[@saltystick_99]

@@patrickmendoza9854 The 123 likes seem to disagree with that statement.

[@patrickrusso9919]

Yes. It certainly would have. Somebody please tell Sonic Team to move the deadly 6 to Ristar

[@hughneutron5965]

@@saltystick_99 182*

[@KodyCrimson]

I always feel sad when these are so accurate. SEGA, for the love of humanity go back to doing your own thing and STOP COPYING OTHER FRANCHISES! Sonic's supposed to be the rebel not the follower. And yeah, Zavok's a pretty dumb villain. He could have been pretty decent in Lost World, but like everything aside from the parkour, it fell flat and was mediocre.

[@Gusername]

So you think his idea to remove games from the timeline just becuase he dosen't like them is a good thing despite the fact that it alianates people who like them and is also unfair to those people.

[@traktor420]

Alex Erickson yes, we do, cus zavok has a fanbase of around ten people

[@Gusername]

@@traktor420 I'm not talking about zavok's fans I'm talking about the games I don't care whether zavok's is around or not

[@traktor420]

Alex Erickson I think they should just delete all the games after 06, cus that’s where most of the plot hole win the sonic timeline come from, and it’s also where the writing fell off, and game being erased from canon doesn’t erase them from existence

[@Gusername]

@@traktor420 the writing dosen't matter every mainline game past 06, is meidocre at worst I would rather have a just ok game than a bad one can we at least agree on that

[@DannyBenS94]

Sega: "No one likes Zavok...let's put him in every game!"

[@adeleinetheartist8267]

Sega are idiots

[@zar1536]

Despite the fact that its sonic team who makes the games and sega only publishes them

[@TheRockruffWhoCries]

These are the same guys who stopped using the Adventure formula after the failure of 06.

[@the757general2]

@@zar1536 Sonic Team is an in-house studio of Sega. The latter still has the final say of anything Sonic related.

[@penguinmaster7]

sega beats fans over the head with forced zavok appearances in hopes that we'll eventually like him. as if we'd ever like a villain so generic and bland you could just call him "Evil McBaddy" and have a better name than Zavok

[@Legoluigi26]

It's not about the character himself, it's what he represents. The Zeti are the only original characters of the main universe that were introduced post 2010 (excluding Infinite, who came in very late). Sega needs to have someone to represent all decades of Sonic to keep the fans happy, but they already decided to keep story and new characters to a minimum following the "Sonic has too many stupid friends" complaint of the 2000s. Zavok (and sometimes Zazz) are the only real options for 2010s reps. Before anyone brings up Yacker or any whisp, allow me to quote a man much wiser than me: "they don't treat [them] like a friend, they treat [them] like an item".

[@ChaosRayZero]

They need a 2010's rep people like? Here's a thought, why not ret-canon Sticks the Badger into a "non-Boom" canon immigrant? I haven't watched the Sonic Boom cartoon (I want to, I just haven't gotten around to it), but I know I immediately liked her from what little I've seen of her and haven't come across any negative rants about her, except maybe for people who hate medium-aware 4th-wall breaks in general. (I looked up a wiki article about her, and apparently outside of the "Boom" continuity she's at least been in the 2016 Olympics and the Sonic Runners mobile game.) That said, another option is to *_just use Infinite._* "Came in very late" is better than "not at all," and a lot of people may hate his backstory, but he still has a cool-looking design that fits in with the Sonic universe, an awesome theme song, and a huge fan following. I've seen loads of people attempt to defend Infinite's origin motive just because they love the character so much, and I've even seen some people on the opposite end of the scale who love Infinite's backstory _because_ it's bad. Love or hate the way he was written, *he's still popular.* Being initially written poorly doesn't stop you from giving him potentially epic future moments either. Shadow's had more than a few bad moments he hasn't been able to live down, but that doesn't stop Sega from bringing him back, right? And Silver debuted in a rushed game that's still infamous nearly one-and-a-half decades later for being one of the "worst" Sonic games ever made, yet he's still popular. Why not give Infinite a second chance and _make him into_ the cool character he should've been (or always was, depending on your viewpoint), and just let the "I AM NOT WEEEAAAAAAK" quote go down like "where's that d@#$ 4th chaos emerald" and "IT'S NO USE" where nobody but memers really care about it anymore? *Tl;dr-* The Zeti aren't _the only_ post-2010 characters. People love *Sticks* and *Infinite.* The latter may have gotten off to a memetically rocky start writing-wise, but he can still _become_ better written and as beloved as the rest of the cast.

[@hihi-nm3uy]

a very wise man indeed said that; and he was a mid 2000’s rep that, even in the game’s inception, was known to be, at the very least, an entertaining villain despite his flaws. everyone from that era that was introduced was vibrant and colourful, but with this new era, all we have really are a bunch of lazy villains of the week

[@jamiegioca9448]

Is this a motherfucking RealTimeFandub reference?

[@hammbonethegamer4505]

@@jamiegioca9448 Yes, it is

[@symphomaniac]

They need to use Zazz more, he's more interesting

[@littenfire3563]

It's so sad how Sonic really has lost his way. He was never supposed to copy Mario, he's supposed to be the anti mario. Sonic was the cool action hero for kids, while Mario was the silly, happy, and laid back game series

[@austinreed7343]

Litten Fire And the one time they tried to be the anti-mario again in the 2010s, the game was terrible from a visual and coding standpoint.

[@littenfire3563]

@@austinreed7343 Um Sonic was the anti-Mario since the very beginning. It was even part of Sonic's advertising in the 90s. It wasn't until the 2010's they basically gave up on Sonic's identity and started trying to copy mario

[@austinreed7343]

Litten Fire I meant in the 2010s, with Forces being the one time they tried being the anti-Mario again.

[@gama103]

@@austinreed7343 I don't think they even tried.

[@austinreed7343]

gama103 Explain the theme song with lyrics, infinite, and the story and visuals, then.

[@makaylafloyd8156]

I just had a minor epiphany: so Sega is trying to be more like Nintendo, right? Well, Mario's sidekick, Luigi, can be seen as cowardly and weak (I don't think that way, I love him) and Nintendo seems to hate him. Now look at how Tails has been treated lately. (Oh, gosh, this is way more likes and comments than I've ever had, thanks for them! And thanks for the input on the replies, I see all the points of view. Thanks for reminding me of all the angles!) Edit 2: oh, gosh, it's still going... And yes, I understand that my description of Luigi is wrong and overly simplistic. I said it that way because that's what I think Sega is understanding/drawing from for Tails. It's my opinion.

[@WhiteDarkness3113]

They do know that luigi has fought bowser on his own and saved his brother from him in mario is missing (which was retconned), and saved him again on three separated occasion, despite being scared to do so

[@makaylafloyd8156]

@@WhiteDarkness3113 Yeah. That's what makes me sad. It seems Sega is purposely ignoring that.

[@kooyah6420]

I'd have to disagree. Luigi got an entire month dedicated to himself, with a few games where he's the protagonist (plus, the M&L games really nail the relationship between the bros and show how capable he is). Meanwhile Tails, who was a competent technician and took on Eggman himself at least once, was neutered over the years into a scared kid that was powerless without Sonic in Forces. To say Nintendo actually despises Luigi would be a long-shot at best.

[@WhiteDarkness3113]

@@kooyah6420 I feel like peolle think of hating luigi is likely from SMG4 and Super Smash brothers with the codec and palutenas guidance

[@dink7458]

Its epiphany

[@Sonic171K]

“We don’t need Zavok.” Sonic Team: Yes you do!

[@jamiegioca9448]

More like "but we do!"

[@duskbringer4583]

...Just return Mephiles, you did return Silver. Geez.

[@myleswelnetz6700]

That’s what I’M saying!

[@narxmagee727]

6:53 They're in THE SAME DAMN POSE. Zavok is just worse Bowser, there is literally no rebuttal. Whereas Bowser has a funny personality as seen in the RPGs of a powerful tyrant as well as a lovable goof with a superiority complex and being a loving supportive father of 8 (Yes I know the Koopalings retcon but that doesn't change the fact that he at one point did (and maybe still does) consider them as something like children. At the very least he's a father to Jr.), Zavok is just "heh, I'm the bad guy". Even outside the RPGs where Bowser's personality doesn't shine as much, his actions prove why he's seen as the huge threat he is. He has conquered the GALAXY at one point and because of him it needed to be RESET. That's a big time villain. Zavok just did an extension of what Eggman was doing because he can't do anything himself. THAT'S the reason he joined Eggman in TSR. He realized he was doing what an underling would when their master is gone, so he became one. At the end of the day, SEGA tried to make Bowser but instead they made a cheap knock off.

[@verticaldorito]

Bruh they didn’t even try to hide it. At least change the pose, damnit

[@Rediscool9]

Bowser didn't just conquer the galaxy, he conquered the whole UNIVERSE TWICE in both Mario Galaxy games and was planning on doing it a third time in Yoshi's Island DS.

[@BarrilBuzz]

​@@Rediscool9He wanted to do it again in Yoshi's New Island (the fourth time).

[@vocalcalibration8033]

Zavok is such an odd character to me. The amount of people who actually like him seem largely dwarfed by those who don't, every mainline game he's been in has been a critical flop, and there just seems to be no one who's asking for more Zavok. So... where exactly is Sonic Team getting this idea there's a huge demand for him? I have to assume they're getting that message from somewhere, otherwise why would he just keep showing up? They obviously want him to be a thing, but they seem to be the only ones. Personally, I blame all the people who kept shitting on characters like the Babylon Rouges or Mephiles. The same people, mind you, who kept demanding it just be Sonic Tails and Knuckles. Characters with complex, or at least interesting, motivations and backstories. A moral compass that went beyond good and bad. People just kept repeating the same shit about how Sonic shouldn't have any dark elements or grander stories, the characters should just be quiet. You know, boring people. Infinite was a step in the right direction, but I deeply fear they'll take the exact wrong lessons from Forces, and Infinite's, failings and retreat back into their hole of bare bones plots, shitty humour and complete flanderization of their beloved characters. I actually think it's a blessing the Rouges haven't appeared in another game since Free Riders. Crap as that game was, at least they were in character! I... I just want Sonic to be cool again! To recapture that magic older games had. That sense of fun and innocence and coolness.

[@bowmaj8666]

It makes me think of what happened with Shadow; people absolutely loved this character when he first appeared, so Sega obviously brought him back, only for everyone to suddenly turn on Shadow and start hating him. I can imagine Sega thinking that that they can do almost the opposite; take a character like Zavok who everyone seems to hate, keep bringing him back, and eventually everyone will suddenly like him! I know it sounds ridiculous, but Sega have made some pretty bonkers decisions over the years, so I wouldn't put it past them. I totally agree with what you said about "fans" or "critics" (who obviously understand the Sonic series and totally know what they're talking about) shitting all over Sonic characters, and also how Sega seem to think that giving us flanderized versions of our favourite characters is suddenly an improvement! It's like they're taking all the aspects of popular characters that we like about them (their quirks, their personalities, their relationships with other characters) and removing them because a bunch of detractors think that these aspects don't exist! It saddens me to think that there are people who watch the scene in Forces of Tails cowering like a complete wimp and say "Yep! That's Tails! That's totally his character! He's always been like that and he always will be! Completely useless, and gratingly annoying! That's why he's on the sidelines and can't be playable, or do anything to help progress the plot along! In fact the games as a whole would be a lot better off if they just got rid of him! And the rest of Sonic's stinky friends too! That's what I think, so that makes me right! And if you disagree, then that's just your opinion, BUT YOU'RE WRONG! Your opinion doesn't matter! If you like Sonic's lame friends then go back to jerking off to your cringy crayon-drawn porn of them on Deviant Art!" Like seriously, what other popular franchise works like this? Dwelling so much on negativity; focusing on what the series CAN'T be, rather than what it CAN be! What other series is so determined to please their fans, that they risk losing other fans in the progress? People complain that Sonic stories and characters are lackluster these days. Well it's obvious that they're only like this now because of years of whiners bitching "WAHH, THERE'S TOO MANY YUCKY CHARACTERS! WAHH, THEY ALL SUCK, GET RID OF EM, JUST HAVE SONIC! WAHH, THE STORIES ARE ALL EMO AND EDGY! NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE STORY! AND WHY ISN'T IT IN 2D? AND WHERE'S CLASSIC SONIC? WHY ISN'T IT MOBIUS ANYMORE? AND WHERE'S GREEN HILL? GIVE ME MY HD REMAKE OF SONIC 2 WITH TAILS REMOVED AND THE NAME ROBOTNIK IN FLASHING NEON LIGHTS ACROSS THE SCREEN DURING EVERY BOSS FIGHT COS I STILL REFUSE TO CALL HIM EGGMAN! THAT'S THE ONLY GOOD GAME, AND IT'S WHAT I WANT, AND THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS! REEEEE!" And it just feels like at this rate, they'll eventually get it!

[@lpfan4491]

@@bowmaj8666 Yeah, because it totally makes sense to introduce 6 new characters and then infinite when the complain was that there are too many characters and they are afraid now. The truth is that nobody fucking cares writingwise anymore. Nobody at sega at least.

[@vocalcalibration8033]

@@bowmaj8666 Basically yeah.

[@bowmaj8666]

@@lpfan4491 It's because they think we, the fans don't care! However, considering the fact that so many people hate the current state of the stories, and how much people look back fondly on the stories to games like the Adventure series proves that it's just not true! Fans DO care about the stories, they DO want them to be well written, they DON'T want the same thing over and over again! And they want the characters to be likable and relatable, not just cardboard cutouts and stereotypes! It just feels like nowadays if you feel this way then all of a sudden YOU are the bad guy! It's like people think it's too much to ask for a well written story, with fleshed out and likable characters, and an interesting world and lore to build on! Basically anything that every well written franchise on the planet has and it's "Nah, Sonic doesn't need that! Just throw in a bunch of aliens (or demons, whatever, who cares), we don't have to give them motives or backstory, they're just evil! And all that emotion and suspense from the old games, no one likes that, just have the characters running around going "HERPY DERP, AIN'T WE SILLY, KIDS?" You know, like they do on Teen Titans Go!" It's what Sega and these critics think the series needs, when it clearly isn't! It's just making things worse. I'm not going to act like the so-called "dark age of Sonic" was perfect either. Improvements can still be made! Mistakes need to be learned from! Sega can't just say "Right, no ambitious new ideas ever again! Just play it safe from now on! It's Classic Sonic and rehashed levels all the way!" No Sega, it's really not!

[@missbubblebee3329]

Bowmaj 86 Shadow is still the fan-favorite character though

[@corbinbrindle1488]

Zavok: exists Shrek: I find your lack of layers disturbing

[@faidou9954]

I hate to say this, but sometimes it feels like Sega in general have run out of ideas and are just relying on what they thing will net them the most money at the moment. You know things are bad when even the fans have a somewhat better idea of what Sonic is compared to the company that created him.

[@jordanboyd5587]

I think that's literally what they're doing. Which really makes me worried about the new Sonic game that Sonic Team are making. The gameplay might be good, but I just want a story that's trying to be it's own thing without any dumb meme culture in it. Fire the modern writers and get actual good writers, Sega.

[@yampaamvs]

@@jordanboyd5587 Preach. The characters are all just shallow husks of their former selves.

[@jamiegioca9448]

Dare I say: Why can't Mario be more like that badass boy, Sonic?

[@LTDLetsPlays]

cuz the new writers doesnt care about sonic just skimmed the wikipedia and thats all the work they did they should be replaced by a either super competent or one that actually likes sonic

[@Prime_Legend]

@prickly pear They barely made money with the 2010 titles.

[@ApexPredator1000]

Honestly I wish everything post-Generations would be rebooted. There's just so much wrong with their current thinking. The 2 worlds concept, the weak stories, ruining characters, the over-reliance of wisps & classic Sonic as a separate character... If for the next game SEGA came out and said everything post generations was a different timeline and now we're going back to the ways things were before, I'd be ecstatic.

[@shanejohnson1606]

Underrated comment.

[@ApexPredator1000]

@disabled account I mean, I like a lot of the stuff they did between SA2 and Generations personally tbh. That being said, this probably lies more with my being a Team Dark fan and enjoying their storylines a lot. But Unleashed was the last game I really enjoyed from a story & gameplay point. Generations was more a treat to nostalgia, which was fine, but everything afterwards was just so far removed from what I loved from this franchise - a lot of which does come from the post-SA2 era for me

[@austinreed7343]

disabled account Unleashed ruined everything Heroes was building up.

[@traktor420]

Austin Reed what did heroes build up? Oh yeah... SUpEr poWeR of tEaMwoRk

[@austinreed7343]

The angry Sonic fan And Shadow’s past, and the androids, and some things that were also forgotten by Unleashed.

[@littlemissdeadly24papyrus36]

They keep shoehorning him into everything I can't take it anymore (T-T)

[@alainwolf146]

Aside from Zavok; I'm also sick of seeing the Wisps.

[@verticaldorito]

Alain Wolf honestly I agree. They were cool in colors, but like the 3 acts thing in Sonic 1, too much of a good thing is bad.

[@alainwolf146]

@@verticaldorito I don't mind 3 acts for Sonic levels; but the Wisps should've only appeared in Colors.

[@verticaldorito]

Alain Wolf 3 acts in Sonic 1 were good when you were playing a good level, but sometimes even that would get a bit tiring. And the labyrinth act 4 thing will haunt me forever.

[@verticaldorito]

Alain Wolf and yeah the wisps felt overused after colors

[@averyhorrocks5195]

Okay lets be honest here: How badly would Bowser destroy Zavok if they ever met each other and fought?

[@batter9531]

Bruh, Bowser shits on Zavok so hard. It'd be like putting a fetus agaisnt Mike Tyson, and expecting the fetus to win

[@rainpooper7088]

Remember Bowser vs Rawk Hawk from TTYD? That’s what it would look like.

[@jobsidian4219]

Bowser literally survive being throw into a sun in the center of the universe ! Zavok die in normal lava .

[@averyhorrocks5195]

@@rainpooper7088 sorry man I am new here can you give me a link to that fight?

[@ChaosRayZero]

@@averyhorrocks5195 Someone get on this fanfic/fanart, STAT! X^D

[@Sonictails54321]

I'm gonna get questioned on for this, but I think Zavok and the Deadly Six as whole does have potential as villains. Unlike past modern villains, one major factor I can see with the Deadly Six is that they can be like Fang the Sniper, and can be reused (probably more creatively than someone like Eggman Nega). Sure, they don't have an in-depth story like many main series antagonists in the past has, such as Dark Gaia, but at the same time those antagonists came with a beginning, middle, and end. I think when it comes to the Deadly Six re-appearing, they just need a more competent writer than Pontaff (and probably a better scenario too). Like it was said in this video, the Deadly Six had a bad first impression, but if there were more games with a big story, maybe they could be utilized in better ways.

[@apothisiii5549]

god they're so flat, the only interesting thing I can think of is that their loosely based on the seven deadly sins (or at least six of the sins) and that they take inspiration from Japanese Oni in their designs.

[@hwtvi3466]

Sonictails54321 I agree.

[@isislemons303]

Dude...They really don't. They're even flatter and uninteresting characters than Princess FCKIN Elise! They're literal pieces of cardboard with NOTHING to them, Just like Lost World overall, A NOTHING game with no identity. They never had any potential and From what I've seen anywhere else, NO ONE cares about them AFAIK Nobody.

[@nahthepigmask.9660]

I mean at least idw fixed them a bit. I guess?

[@nave712]

Ian Flynn and the writers of the IDW comics certainly did them justice

[@joshuablaster1540]

The fact that Zazz and Zik have more character than Zavok is pretty pathetic. In the IDW Comics, he was so close to killing Sonic and infecting his friends, but he got his butt kicked at the end. It is like whatever Zavok does, no matter how many god-like powers he has, he will fail and never persevere. At least Eggman, Chaos, Mephiles, and hell Infinite did something and at least killed people, he is just a dumb knockoff of my 2nd favorite Mario character, Bowser. He sucks.

[@esteban8471]

Don't forget that he only got as far as he did because he and the Zetti were cleaning up the uncontrollable Zombot mess that *Eggman* started! It's pathetic how these guys can't cause trouble without riding on Eggman's success.

[@joshuablaster1540]

Esteban, you are absolutely right! The Deadly Six are so incompetent that their leader is constantly following orders from the enemy AND that his backup plan to betray him fails. I think the Zombot arc should keep going as with a little amount of people and is a perfect place for emotional ties between the characters and why they are friends are wasted with a joke of Silver saying it was anticlimactic. Sure some of the characters cry, but nothing is said about them being zombies or about being friends. At least Zazz feels like he wants to kill Sonic while the others are so incompetent that their existence is laughable, especially with a name like The Deadly Six, they haven’t killed ANYTHING!!! At least make a Zeti do something dark like eat an animal or bleed a major character like Sonic or Tails, but no. I think they should be put down and let the other villains and characters have their spotlight to then finally focusing on them and give them a reason why they are villains. At least the others like Chaos and Infinite have a reason to be bad, but they just have wacky designs with spikes. Zavok and Co. just love to take credit of what is not theirs. Zavok, more like Zadumb. Got em!

[@esteban8471]

@@joshuablaster1540 As hit or miss as Infinite was, he was literally the sole reason Eggman got as far as he did in Sonic Forces. The Zetti were only a threat because they were the only ones capable of controlling the Zombot horde, and even then they needed Chaos Emeralds to control large amounts. It's like all they're good for is cleaning up Eggman's messes. At least they caused a few good moments like the Babylon Rogues coming back or Gemerl offering to stay with Cream during her infection. I love the Metal Virus arc to death, easily one of my favorite Sonic story arcs of all time. But once all the heart pounding stress is gone and everything gets fixed, you realize that all the Zetti did was raise the tension and stakes.

[@joshuablaster1540]

Esteban I would love the Zombie arc to continue and would love to see Sonic looking at his best friends trying to kill him, well they aren’t conscious so almost. Let the series be dark and story-driven, not talking and fight scenes. The fight scenes are cool, but it is a comic so save it for the movie. I hope the Deadly Six don’t come back until the writers are ready to tell a story with them.

[@esteban8471]

@@joshuablaster1540 It was honestly more story driven than fight scenes. Things just got worse and worse with each issue (in a very good way). It got real dark real fast, and it stayed that way throughout the arc. Most of the action was by Sonic and anyone else either retreated quickly or got infected. Nothing really lasted too long. It was a zombie apocalypse, after all. The arc was fine just the way it was, at least in my opinion. It escalated and ended pretty organically. And I agree. The Zetti NEED to be used as their own thing rather than third rate villains using Eggman's shit. Give them a storyline, an origin story, anything that would be exclusive to THEM! Not have them use Eggman's stuff to be successful.

[@The_Admiral_Angel]

You wanna know a game franchise that has multiple villains/anti-heroes that are beloved by fans? Kirby. Ever since Kirby's Adventure, the series has had many antagonists that people really like due to either their designs, motives, or really dark backstories. And some of these villains have actually almost stopped Kirby more than once. Drawcia, for example, turned Kirby into a limbless ball, and Necrodeus splits Kirby into 10 less powerful Kirbys. Not to mention that these bad guys are some of the most overly powerful villains in any Nintendo franchise ever. And they're still better than the antagonists in current Sonic games. If Sonic Team wants to make a new villain in their games, they should start taking notes on how to make them interesting, what motivated them into being evil, and make them a legitimate threat to Sonic from beginning to end.

[@keystone5750]

To add on to that, Kirby's oldest villain has gone through an actual character arc and has a defined personality that isn't just "fat and hungry." We can see his personality develop from Kirby's Dream Land, to Adventure, to Revenge of The King, and even to Kirby Fighters 2.

[@BrUh-tu5nt]

The dark matter race, Zero, Void. These are also great, not only do they subvert expectations, but they are also somewhat connected with Kirby.

[@austinreed7343]

Shantae, too.

[@GBomb9704]

And Yakuza (ironically another sega ip)

[@glimmerstantroop46321]

@@keystone5750 Kirby and the forgotten land helps support this

[@mediabaron2416]

I don't have a problem with The Deadly Six as characters. Honestly, they're all so bland, it's hard for me to summon any feelings for them. Negative or otherwise. My problem is that they're overused. Mainly Zavok. Sometimes Zazz. And on the occasion, Zeena. Whenever a Sonic game needs a large roster, at least one of the Zeti is now guaranteed to appear, basically to serve as filler, and wasting a character slot that could have and should have gone to someone else. I can't be the only one who thought Orbot and Cubot should have been on Team Eggman in Team Sonic Racing. The Chao shared a car. Why not those two? The Sonic series has a massive cast of characters who deserve to appear again. But they don't get a chance to because the Deadly Six won't go away! .... I miss Marine.

[@erugurara8235]

and i miss fang.

[@Couch_Banana]

@@erugurara8235 I miss Gamma. I don't care if he's dead, put him in non-canon, well written material and we're good.

[@erugurara8235]

@@Couch_Banana i am happy to tell you that that there is a canon gamman, in sonic battle there is a more calculating and still and nowhere in as much free will, but still intending to lean and whit a growing interest in cream (i bealive, i forget more of his plot) and starts defreinding her, that is Chaos Gamma sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Gamma:

[@erugurara8235]

this si so confusing to write, i nver had to write whit a mirrored look.

[@Couch_Banana]

@@erugurara8235 Thanks, but I already knew about him. Plus, for me, Chaos Gamma isn't the same, y'know what I mean?

[@elfascisto6549]

As a mario fan, i feel kinda insulted when people say that zavok is equal to bowser (Yes, you can like Mario and Sonic at the same time, we're not living in the 90s anymore, folks)

[@KOTEBANAROT]

I GENUINELY didnt even connect the dots. Bowser is such a strong and impactful character full of personality and Zavok is SO bland and dry i still dont really see it. Like obviously thats what theyre going for but they do such a bad job lol

[@verticaldorito]

KOT EBANA ROT yeah Zavok is a cheap rip off, and this is coming from a Sonic fan. Though to be fair, even the most diehard sonic fanboys don’t like Zavok.

[@jdawson7877]

zavok is no where near the same league as bowser

[@josephgrube]

Yeah, Bowser has a unique and special thing known as a personality

[@mustachetwirler7617]

1:53-2:20 Master Shifu: “Po, hold my tea, I’m going to master the ancient arts of filling a lawsuit on SEGA for ripping me off with that... that turquoise THING!”

[@apothisiii5549]

to be fair its not like Kung-Fu Panda is the first property to use the "Wise-Old-Master" trope

[@mustachetwirler7617]

ApothisIII True, However SEGA had took a bit too much reference to Kung Fu Panda before. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bKTUaKuuiLCmm7M kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHaUq5eQjtairLM

[@gabeitches87]

LMAO

[@christiannorton9400]

I'm surprised you didn't call on Odyssey's portrayal of Bowser to drive home the point that Bowser has a personality and layers lmao he was a rich, clueless showboat in that game who, while intimidating and formidable in combat, was so pathetic he had to be consoled by his decades-long rival when their mutual crush rejects their simultaneous proposals.

[@henriquebrener8294]

Zavok is just boring, but if sega wants a "bowser" like villain, at least make him/her interesting with clear motivation and a nice design. But I think the idw may have a way to fix him (somehow)

[@jamiegioca9448]

His design is fine IMO

[@Hynotama]

Or you know... just don't. Sonic doesn't need a Bowser, because Sonic isn't Mario.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Hynotama Zavok being similar to bowser makes sense because Lost world is meant to be like Mario. Why, Takashi Iizuka comfirmed that alot of sacrifices were made just to have an HD 3d Sonic game run at 60 fps on a Nintendo console. If that's the case then 3d Sonic may be Doomed.

[@lasercraft32]

Eggman is already Sonic's Bowser. 💀

[@welchrebooted4739]

If sega gave us a reason to care about zavok maybe he could be a good character but for now he is just a bland blank slate. We could see a villian like mephiles or fang return but we get zavok for the millionth time instead.

[@johnflyne2423]

I would LOVE to see fang return.

[@Pryexel]

If I were to rewrite the story of Lost World, I would have it be that the Zeti were a race who were banished to Lost Hex a long time ago. Eggman then comes along and gets the remaining Zeti to work with him using the conch. But although he's working with Eggman, Zavok sees an opportunity to use his mech and machinery to get his long due revenge on the main planet. But first, he has to get rid of the conch, so he manipulates Sonic and Tails to take down Eggman and destroy the conch, saying it will free him and race if they do so. Once that is done he makes his move and betrays them, taking the planet's energy using it to be the strongest he's ever been. This, already, makes him more interesting. It shows that he has as many brains as he does brawn and a good reason to be the bad guy.

[@orangeslash1667]

Lost World's Story is much better in the Japanese version. Including Zavok.

[@autobotstarscream765]

9:08 This, right here, illustrates the problem with the Deadly Six as Mario villains in the Sonic franchise. The movement they represent of making Sonic more like Mario and watering it down as a result comes right on the heels of about a decade of _Mario_ copying _Sonic_ and getting _better and better_ on way past cool fuel, with the very Koopas that the Zeti try to emulate having been taking cues from Dr. Eggman such as the pictured amusement park that's literally Bowser's version of Eggmanland and the resurgence of the classic Koopa Clown Car as the Koopas' answer to the Egg-O-Matic hovercraft, with Bowser Jr. taking it one step further beyond and straight up transforming from another Koopaling into Mario's Eggman (complete with Professor E. Gadd as a Dr. Von Schlimmer-esque foil as seen in Sunshine when Jr. used E. Gadd's tech for evil), growing up before our eyes over the course of several games from a greenhorn miniboss into a BIG-TIME VILLAIN, and becoming a better character as a result of adopting the Sonic formula of deeper characterization and permanent character growth across multiple games, and in turn, Bowser has grown from starting at Zavok's position of Big Bad Guy Based On Japanese Mythological Monster Who's Evil For Teh Evilz to becoming a fleshed-out father to Jr., adopted son of Kamek, and somewhat proper head of state for the Koopa Kingdom without losing the charm and fun, and in fact only building on it as he's fleshed out until he reaches the point of literally building Koopa Eggmanland; some people even call Odyssey the best _Sonic_ game in years because Mario has flourished from learning from Sonic while Sonic has floundered trying to copy Mario.

[@PersianSlashuur]

Why the Hell is it taking them so long to develop Zavok(and the other Zeti for that matter)? Is it seriously _that hard_ to come up with a backstory for them?

[@KOTEBANAROT]

Sega doesnt want any backstories for their characters anymore. Seriously. They still have shadow but they havent mentioned maria in FOREVER.

[@magicfishhobo381]

I'll spit out a backstory right now: The Zeti were originally a species created by some lost civilization (Hence the ruins on Lost Hex) to act as slave workers and kept in line with the conchs like Eggman has. Eventually they overpowered their creators and after a long war the land they stood on was lifted into the sky to be their eternal prison. Without the resources they needed to survive the Zeti died out until only six remained. Eventually Eggman finds the Lost Hex and discovers the Deadly Six, he recreates the conch with his technology and forces the Zeti to be his henchmen. Zavok then shows him the design of an ancient machine that becomes the energy drainer with the intent to betray Eggman, drain the world below of it's life, and ensure the survival of his people.

[@mattboy2313]

@@magicfishhobo381 Better writing from a KZbin comment than from 2 script writers.

[@verticaldorito]

Matthew Requena The sad thing is that the Zeti didn’t even have a backstory in Lost World. They just fucking appear out of nowhere.

[@SSJWolverine]

@@KOTEBANAROT Which is for the best. Shadow moving past his trauma was a big part of his game's story. He doesn't mention Maria because he doesn't need to. He's not ruled by his past anymore.

[@leandrothehedgehog]

DAMM! To be honnest Zavok was never that interesting to me, he is my least favorite villan, but now watching this makes me think that we need to clean all the hq of SEGA and Sonic Team to change everything, not only storys and how the heroes are represnted, but also to make more interesting villans or at least bring back the good older ones

[@lpfan4491]

@Dann Rajeeh I disagree about eggman and black doom joining forces. That is the darkage equivalent of him and zavok joining forces in team sonic racing.

[@crossfire34]

@Dann Rajeeh Black Doom and Mephiles are dead, so I don't see how they can come back. Also, the real Chaos was redeemed, so him being a villain again would ruin his ending. And I personally don't want the Wisps around anymore, and I especially don't want a second Ultimate Life Form running around. Shadow already uses that title to show off, we don't need cheap drama with a second one just like him.

[@LDtheBrachio]

Mama Robotnik is a better villain than Zavok!

[@LDtheBrachio]

Also, Dark Oak from Sonic X is a great and deep villain

[@lpfan4491]

I almost thought you said "Maria Robotnik" because I misread for a sec. And to make it even more funny, that is actually kinda true because she already influenced more negative stuff about the stories she is in than Zavok.

[@jamalhartley5863]

I miss the "dark age" of Sonic. There were so many new games to play. So many new ideas and different directions. The type of risk and creativity that was being put forth, ya only miss it when ya realize it's gone. As people play the older games. A lot of people begin to really see the charm of old games. Sonic and the black knight was Sonic written at his very best. Shadow the hedgehog was the first game where the narrative was the main focus of the game. Sonic 06 was seeking to be this grand epic story with a lot of profound character moments. All these bad games were trying something! The minds behind the scenes were putting forth an effort to be creative. And honestly I really am starting to miss those days.

[@sparkwolf4894]

I can't wait for this video I personally like Zavok but I love hearing your and others opinions on stuff like this it really helps me understand a new perspective nevermind that what I'm trying to say is appreciate your videos I love them to death keep up the good work

[@charactersin-depth3472]

Nothing wrong with liking Zavok.

[@sparkwolf4894]

@@charactersin-depth3472 your an awesome person keep up the great content I'm excited for your work I can't wait until the video premieres

[@charactersin-depth3472]

@@sparkwolf4894 Thank you

[@enaasnuesry9231]

@@charactersin-depth3472 hello I have some series ideas 1. You make theorys that answer questions leftover in sonic lore 2.Maybe you can find a way to find the order of canonical events aka.timeline 3.Maybe make a series how Sega can reintroduce certain characters in to the games(hyper sonic,mighty and ray,manic and sonia from sonic underground etc. Love your vids keep up the good work

[@shadow.3xereactions518]

@@charactersin-depth3472 Honestly I like Zavok still hope he comes back because too many villains don't comeback

[@creepykongs6662]

The “Deadly Six LEGIT LOOK LIKE SPACE JAM REJECTS!!!

[@lop3938]

Heck even the new Goon Squad looks way more cooler than those guys. But actually I think they look more like Helluva Boss reject.

[@kieranstark7213]

Not to mention that Zavok also looks like an ugly version of both Spooky in Pac-Man World 2 (one of the best gaming villains while the Deadly Six, especially Zor and Zeena) and the (actually neutral) Bowser (except for the face, that’s the main reason).

[@d0tty]

In my opinion zavok has no use now and days, i mean in forces he trash. in sonic team racing he was just there but, I though him and eggman are enemys. He should have stayed in lost world

[@carbonneau5630]

I think the real reason is in team racing is because they need a 3 character for team eggman (when they can just use infinite)

[@d0tty]

@@carbonneau5630 true they should used infinite because he was a new character

[@carbonneau5630]

@@d0tty I think they not used it because the game as in développement the same time that force

[@d0tty]

@@carbonneau5630 maybe that could be the reason

[@karthikss1654]

And don't forget the idw comics He was literally the boss in the recent issues

[@NotSoGenesiz]

The only reason why I like zavok is because of his color palette. That's it.

[@Legoluigi26]

His hair is a very nice shade of cyan.

[@whirlwind6wind33]

Sega is like: "Yeah! We know you guys don't like Zavok... Well not yet... [Insert: Future Sonic Game] We the Sonic fans like him a lot now. Also, the Sonic idw comics are a deserving of shoutouts. Also, we at Sega and Sonic Team like Zavok's design."

[@TJ_thesilly]

This guy knows what hes talking about with sonic more than sonic team actually does.

[@isislemons303]

Sonic Team slander and saying their incompetent and all need to be fired. Cuz We haven't heard enough of that BS right?

[@orangeslash1667]

@@isislemons303 Sonic games don't sell well in Japan. So now that Sega bought Atlus who makes the Persona games. Along with the Yakuza series. Sega takes 3d Sonic less seriously.

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

I more curious are their more zeti species out their or just the deathly six. But I luv zeema

[@davidtellobenites7574]

Screw her, Zomom, and Zor. But I would like to see more Zeti species out there apart from the deadly six.

[@parzavulwatts5213]

I would like a new one in the next game to be more like the robots in sonic mania. Just a one a time or more boss

[@selkrasouza6262]

I get the impression that they’re the last of their kind.

[@marrons6699]

The IDW comics adds a little bit of personality to The Deadly Six

[@CrystalClearWith8BE]

What I like is Zazz. That magenta slender speedy zeti. He's named after a theme of music, jazz.

[@YourUncleBenis]

I will give Zavok one thing: He is the only Deadly Six member that I can always remember the name of. Legit, what is everybody else called? Zoboomafoo? Zibbity-bop-do-ba-dop? Zendaya? Who are these people?

[@silverguy526]

ZENDAYA SKDHAKDB

[@johnflyne2423]

There's one guy called zazz. That's it.

[@yampaamvs]

Zendaya🤣🤣🤣 I needed that laugh, thanks.

[@christianwelch4206]

Wise Old Mentor: Zik Crazy Dude: Zazz Fat Guy: Zomom Emo Kid: Zor Stereotypical Teenage Girl: Zeena

[@verticaldorito]

Christian Welch so basically, the fat one, the old one, the crazy one, the emo one, and the teenage girl. Their names are literally the most interesting thing about them.

[@LBcrimson]

Honestly I was kinda excited when I saw the deadly six because the Sonic franchise doesn't have ensemble villains and honestly trying to add some new reoccurring bad guys sounded like a good idea. It just sucks this is what we got in return. I think it would have been cool if they had some connection to the chaos emeralds given their matching color schemes,maybe like being the personification of it's negative energy. And the idea of Zavok as "Sonic's Bowser" actually could've worked! Like imagine if they had emphasized that Zavok was a villain that utilized the power of comradery the same way Sonic did and that's why he was a true threat? After all even bad people work in groups. Idk I just think there's a lot of wasted potential.

[@yourehereforthatarentyou]

iizuka should stop mismanaging the franchise and just start using the hooligans, or the babylon rogues, or even let metal sonic lead the rest of the robot sonic doppelgangers, idk

[@M0mazosMissy]

@@yourehereforthatarentyou Dude, Metal Sonic is just so... Unused

[@yourehereforthatarentyou]

@@M0mazosMissy i know, right. lots of sonic characters are super unused. metal is an excellent foil to sonic (and far better at it than shadow, i hate the idea sega/sonic team has gotten into their head that shadow is some brooding asshole, since his game. hes not supposed to be like that, shadow is a hero) and, like i mentioned, the hooligans (fang the sniper, bean the dynamite, and bark the polar bear) are great villains and an excellent foil to the chaotix in the archie comics reboot, they have tons of potential that just, exists, untapped. look how well received mighty and ray were, when they came back for mania plus. people *care* about these older characters, and the ones that dont know of them, theyre basically new characters to. everybody wins sonic as a whole franchise just needs some serious remanagement

[@erugurara8235]

@@yourehereforthatarentyou Fang the sniper is my favorite character (the goofy failing villain type) and whit chacters like him i belive is posible to make the story flow in deferent ways (instead of Eggman capturing the animals , the idea of oher animals hunting they like for the sake of profit, yeah, just remebering some of the "sonic the comic" plots), just commenthing becasue when there was a official vote for sonic character`s Fang wans`t there and that makes me very insecured.

[@yourehereforthatarentyou]

@@erugurara8235 same, dude. at least, fang is my favorite character that originated from the games. (my favorite comic characters are nicole, from the archie comics, and whisper from the idw comics. im not really familiar with fleetway/sonic the comic) but i really like fang and think they should use more MOBIAN villains. it works excellently with the hooligans and babylon rogues, or even groups/characters like the destructix, or scourge, or dr finitevus from the archie comics, and dr starline and rough & tumble from idw but yeah, we need villains that arent eggman, some kind of robot, or some kind of monster, which i greatly appreciate that they *tried* to do that with infinite, but he was so poorly recieved (for good reason) that i dont believe they'll try it again. which is a shame

[@TheAbsol7448]

If they're gonna use him, they should FLESH HIM OUT. Give him a story on where he's from, give him actual motives, and give him incentive for those motives. Maybe even retcon Lost World slightly to rewrite its canon in a way that gives him a _reason_ for hating Sonic. Zavok is a boring character. Make him less boring.

[@patrickthehenchman2679]

I’m thinking of a funny scenario if Mario and Sonic decided to swap villains for the day, and just as Sonic is about to confront Bowser, Bowser is shown making an example out of Zavok

[@smt64productions40]

XD

[@silvurrrboi230]

I guess I'm one of the few people that actually likes the Deadly Six beacuse I can see a great potential in them, especially in Zavok. In the IDW comics We were able to see that they can actually be pretty intimidating.

[@isislemons303]

They don't have any

[@isislemons303]

That's only cause they were in the hands of an actually competent writer who actually gives a shit. But IDW isn't canon anyway so no point in bringing that up

[@nahthepigmask.9660]

Didn’t frontiers establish its canonicity to the sonic lore? (Even if it is a small mention from sonic)

[@LoiValdes]

​@@nahthepigmask.9660Yes, and It was confirmed Canon alongside Prime after that

[@orangeslash1667]

@@isislemons303 Lost World's Story is much better in the Japanese version. Including Zavok.

[@knuxuki1013]

In the Japanese version of the game, the Zeti are apparently demons Eggman awakened ,that's the only reason they have to be evil.

[@knuxuki1013]

9:06 One of the best tunes in the entire Mario franchise

[@ablosch2452]

By the way, with you mentioning Ratchet and Clank. I noticed that Ratchet and Clank All For One had a couple things in common with Sonic Lost World, such as these. -Changing from deviating away to a common trope and even poking fun at it, to actually being the common trope it used to subvert. -A Plot where it starts out as a regular easily-thwarted scheme by the usual main villain, but then the heroes and villain get stranded on another world and have to team up to take on a new threat, though they don't like it and end up acting like disagreeing roommates in a sitcom or something, and do not have good dynamic. -A new main villain who is actually less of a threat than others in the series and barely accomplished anything (seriously, what exactly did Ephemeris do that was noteworthy, as compared to Dr. Nefarious who obliterated entire worlds with his Deplanetizer, or Megacorp who tortured and genetically modified innocent creatures in a big conspiracy)? -Ending where the villain, despite what they experienced in the events of the game, turns against them in the end just to maintain the status quo and because he's evil so that's what he does. Effectively making the ending like if he stayed evil the whole plot. Thankfully Ephemeris hasn't been being shoehorned into more than one game though, unlike Zavok.

[@kirbytheartist3318]

I don't mean to be that guy, but coming from a long time Ratchet and Clank Fan. I would just like to point out that Ephemeris isn't technically the bad guy of All 4 One. It was just a giant tool used by Mr. Dinkles/The Loki Master.

[@ablosch2452]

@Kirby the Artist Still, Dinkles was about as uninteresting and ineffective of a villain as Zavok was.

[@kirbytheartist3318]

@@ablosch2452 I can definitely see where you're coming from with that statement considering the fact that you don't even MEET Dinkles until RIGHT BEFORE THE FINAL BOSS. The weird thing about this too is that the game try's to pull a twist where it leads you into thinking that Nevo was the Villain of the game, only to reveal that it was his pet who got possessed by the Loki Master. The kicker to all this is that Nevo might as well be the Villain to All 4 One, HE was the one that created Ephemeris, HE was the one who created the Collector Minions, and HE was the one that collected all the monsters throughout the Universe. Dinkles was just some furball with a Gun who threatened him to do all that stuff and took credit for all the work.

[@ablosch2452]

@@kirbytheartist3318 And just like Lost World, All For One had the one main villain with Doctor in his name begrudgingly having to tag along with the main heroes, only for him to turn on them and resume his villainous ways at the end, essentially being like if he had been the central villain the whole plot.

[@kirbytheartist3318]

@@ablosch2452 I personally wouldn't really go that far with that last part. At least All 4 One didn't try to lead you into thinking that Dr. Nefarious is dead or shoehorn him in as the final boss.

[@MDWolfe-ks5fu]

Plus Sonic already has a Bowser. His name is Dr. Eggman.

[@Whocares158]

Bingo!

[@AMotorDrive]

"We Don't Need Zavok" someone had to say it

[@ARTSONICFAN990]

Bowser: Am I a joke to you? Zavok: Yes but actually no.

[@edwheezer6231]

The answer is yes...and no.

[@Rediscool9]

Zavok: Am *I* a joke to you? Bowser: *Yes.* You’re a joke to everyone.

[@lpfan4491]

Lost world:"Am I a joke to you?" Me:"No, I actually love you. I just wish you weren't incompetent."

[@jamiegioca9448]

@prickly pear Me: Well, no, but actually yes

[@ashemabahumat4173]

I'm fine with him, but they're relying a bit to much on him. I'm confident that he could be at leas an intimidating villain if they had Flynn on board... or at least someone who knows how to write

[@ChrisTheSaiyanhog]

He has the whole imposing villian thing going on he just needs to actually do something that eggman wasn't already doing at this point.

[@2o2o_97]

Agree with you all ready! He’s taking the place of more awesome and more potential villains than him. WE DONT WANT ZAVOK ANYMORE!!

[@bolinhosemacucar8512]

I agree! We don't want Zavok anymore!!!

[@davidtellobenites7574]

And the deadly six anymore!

[@jamiegioca9448]

One could argue we NEVER even wanted Zavok to begin with

[@makotoyuki345]

The Zeti should’ve have had a “Nakama” type relationship Wouldn’t “fix” them but it would be more interesting

[@keanto19023._-]

What is nakama ?

[@makotoyuki345]

Djiba Jack Barry Japanese term that loosely means “friends so close, they’re like family”

[@keanto19023._-]

@@makotoyuki345 oh okay Thank you 🤣👌

[@makotoyuki345]

Thai'Asia White I watched it too

[@kkb_7267]

your comment reminded me of this kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6exqZp-ibx8otE

[@knuckson8304]

Kinda sad how they're using Zavok in every game now, I think It's just a bad excuse to don't create new villains, I mean why don't they just create new robots or bring back older ones ? I miss Mecha Sonic a lot and they don't need a motivation to do everything Eggman says but I think It's better like this I really don't wanna see Mecha being a piece of junk

[@jamesporter571]

I wish they'd bring back Scratch & Grounder, even though they're dumber than Orbot & Cubot they had more personality and were an actual threat to Sonic

[@apothisiii5549]

@@jamesporter571 orbot was fun in Unleashed, but I feel like he's overused at this point.

[@BlueJack222]

@@jamesporter571 They are not canon

[@aaronjones6299]

@@BlueJack222 they are robots they can be made canon unlike others

[@verticaldorito]

KnuckSon Zavok is literally only in sonic games to just make the roster bigger. That’s the only reason he still exists.

[@joncarr1200]

I will admit, they redeemed Zavok in the IDW. He takes control of the metal virus, nearly destroying the world, he gives intriguing dialogue in the Bad Guys arc, and he actually gives Sonic a run for his money. He is actually interesting.

[@ablosch2452]

Motivation that doesn’t go beyond “Do bad things because I’m bad.” Isn’t that what a lot of villains are like? Heck the same can be said for Eggman himself!

[@rainpooper7088]

But at least Eggman enjoys doing bad things and has a motivation beyond „I‘m evil“ with Eggman Land. Zavok doesn’t even want to take over the world like Eggman does, he just screws with Sonic just because and it’s not even like he gets petty joy out of it or anything. Eggman also has the backstory with Gerald Robotnik and how he inspired him to be a scientist. Eggman is a well-rounded character, Zavok is not.

[@ArtTheGaleWind]

@@rainpooper7088 there isn't a problem with villains that are straight to the point bad guys that are bad people "because", but to do that, you need to make said villain at least be intimidating or at the bare minimum feel like he's adding SOMETHING to the story, Ozai in TLA is a straight foward bad buy but he works bc he's a final wall that aang has to conquer to finally have his character come full circle, The lich in adventure time is scary as hell, but with Zavok, I feel nothing, I don't feel scared, I don't feel that he's funny, every time I see Zavok, I never think "man Zavok is scary", I just feel "hey look it's zavok. That's the end of that sentence" I feel nothing with that guy, and that's really the issue

[@Laiser]

Merlina wanted to create a world without death (Sonic and The Black Knight) Shadow wanted to avenge his only friend (Sonic Adventure 2) Mephilis was born evil with a desire to destory the world (Sonic 06) Dr. Robotnik is a megalomaniac egotist, he wants to conquer the world because he believes he is better than everyone else. (Every Sonic Game Past SA2) Zavok is bad because he is just bad.

[@ablosch2452]

@Laiser Born evil with a desire to destroy the world. Isn’t that the same thing as “bad just because he is bad?” Also I’m not saying Zavok is a great villain, but I’m saying that most Sonic villains are guilty of the same.

[@Blanktester685]

@@ablosch2452 desiring the end of the world is still a goal and motivation how complex or simplistic the villian goal is isnt the point of the argument. zavok has nothing, even saying that he does bad things just because its fun is still a motivation even if its very simple and basic. every villian he mention has a reason no matter how big or small to do what they do.

[@itsdiego3387]

"To keep sonic busy while he does his sucking." Woah buddy did you have to say it like that

[@jasondavis2381]

Basically Bowser's shadow. Or in some other cases, Diet Bowser.

[@Shadz2025]

Sonic to shadow: I found you. Faker Bowser to zavok: I found you. Faker

[@jamiegioca9448]

C'mon, Shadz, that's not fair, you know Zavok's not even good enough to be Bowser's fake

[@ZaxxonMugen]

Y'know, the more I see people whine about Zavok, the more I feel like I should say something. This may sound like "contrarianism", but it's bugging me and I feel like I've got to say my honest piece. Firstly, I see in Zavok and the Deadly Six the same thing I saw in Infinite: potential. The problem is that the Deadly Six were brought into the franchise at the worst possible time, during an era where Sega was afraid to let loose. Fans complained about the Adventure era's "cringy" narrative focus and complex characters that Sega got cold feet and refuses to let new characters or even old ones really "branch out". I feel like Zavok and the Zeti *can* be at the very least "interesting" if they're allowed to be more than just a personality archetype. Secondly, Zavok and the other Zeti brought something to the table that was sorely missing from the franchise since Colors: *variety*. You said that "Sonic doesn't need a Bowser"? Well I'm sorry to say, but he's had one since before Zavok was born, and his name is Eggman. Don't get me wrong, I love Eggman as much as the next guy, but ironically I'm actually sick of him being the final boss every time, especially when it's just a carbon copy of the Egg Nega Wisp barring Generations. Lost World should've stuck with Eggman working with Sonic and the finale should've been Super Sonic vs. a massively powered-up Zavok (with an actual form change). Forces should have ended with Super Sonic (just one) and the Avatar vs. a berserk Infinite overflowing with Phantom Ruby power. Thirdly, saying a bright red oni doesn't fit in a world with a super-fast talking blue hedgehog, a mutant deity composed entirely of water, a giant man-made salamander abomination, a dragon monster that lives in the Earth's core, and a variety of literal aliens seems kind of absurd. I'll say it right now, the Zeti fit into Sonic better than the (pre-redesign) Freedom Fighters from SatAM. I'm not saying you have to like Zavok, I just wanted to explain my perspective. I can't hate the guy because I see potential in there. Reading IDW's "Sonic: Bad Guys" comic and seeing Zavok bounce off of Starline, Mimic, and Rough and Tumble just makes me not only want Zavok to get a fair, proper chance to branch out, but makes me want to see Sonic and co. butt heads with villains other than Eggman and the occasonal Metal Sonic. If Sonic wants to stand out from Mario, he could benefit from a wider rogue's gallery. Hell, if they insist on only letting Sonic fight Eggman, let the Deadly Six antagonize the supporting cast. But I know we'll never get it, as Sega's proven time and again they're too afraid of the fans throwing a fit at the smallest thing to really go all out. "We Don't Need Zavok"? No, we don't. But I *want* him to stick around, I want them to actively *try* to improve him. As someone who's been with the franchise since the Classic days but prefers the Modern era, I'm sick of seeing characters with potential go to waste.

[@danielgarciaescudero2862]

Its late to comment this video, but I think, as the deadly six are written in the IDW comics, I like Zavok because his personality and ambitions are different from the poor script from Sonic Lost World, which limit them to be stereotypes. Now he is portrayed as someone who believes in the discipline and the family, like Team Dark and being the oposite of Eggman and his confidence in machines, so its much more interesting.

[@supersonicfan7514]

Zavok is SUPPOSED to be a villain stereotype because it’s funny.

[@myleswelnetz6700]

4:25 probably means that the REAL Zavok did not survive Sonic Lost World.

[@KavinCatastrophe]

Nothing on the Idw Comics of The Deadly Six. I believe they found kind of a Balance for them. They are Chaotic who goals are just to destroy the world other then conquer it. They still hate Eggman in the comics. Although since they are easy to mind Control it wouldn't surprise me if eggman just created a device to do it again making sonic team racing still fit. Over all i want more villians than just Eggman and the Deadly Six could be the Secondary Antagonists. But I do agree they could have been more Orginal.

[@esteban8471]

Zavok has recently been made a genuinely interesting character in the IDW comics, especially in the Bad Guys mini series. These comics gave depth for Zavok and character development for Starline, in some instances in the same pages. Highly recommend these comics for any Sonic fan.

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

no still not good and first problem the comic has is being forces 2 in term of story

[@esteban8471]

@@fazelfarrokhi1998 Partly true. The only connection the IDW comics have to Forces is that the events happen not long after the events of the game happened. And even then, the post Forces setting isn't really a bad thing.

[@pablozanoto5801]

I think SEGA makes Zavok come back in every game with a villain to try and win Mario fans with a character similar to Bowser, but not even Mario fans like Zavok. Like Purge says: ZAVOK COULD JUST *DANCE TO HELL!*

[@robertwildschwein7207]

Zavok is a sick parody of bowser

[@hwtvi3466]

Look, I’m about to say something extremely controversial, but hear me out. I actually like Zavok and the Deadly Six, and I honestly have no problem with them being included in future games. *HOWEVER,* that doesn’t mean I’m okay with them being brought back with no development at all. They had potential, and IMO, still do for an interesting backstory to the Lost Hex and the Zeti species. (What can I say? I’m a bit of an optimist.) I think they still can be made into more interesting characters, but that’s only if SEGA is willing to put in the effort to MAKE them interesting characters, not just shoehorn them into literally any Sonic game. This is just my opinion, but I’m holding onto some hope that Sonic Team actually tries to do something with them. Yes, they can’t redo Lost World, but if they’re going to be brought back, Sonic Team could at _least_ give more to their characters.

[@josegodoy6745]

I totally agree with you and to be honest I'm glad IDW demostrated they actually can be pretty intimidating

[@metalrex2480]

6:51 IT'S THE SAME POSE

[@dragondelsur5156]

Both want to send you to Brazil.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

I like how Zavok's literally doing the EXACT same pose as Bowser in that picture you put up.

[@andrewmartin917]

I think there might be something wrong with me, but I happen to enjoy the deadly six, dispite their lack of backstory and other issues, and Zavok happens to me my favorite out of the others

[@matiosmenta]

Dude, there's nothing wrong with you, you just have a different opinion than the majority of the fanbase and IT'S OK.

[@andrewmartin917]

@@matiosmenta thank you

[@sugarsmile7852]

8:37 a NIGHTS villain fun fact : black doom design originatey from that game

[@lordcooler1687]

I actually agree with him being a nights villain. In fact, I think it would've been better if lost world was a nights game instead. While I have never really played a nights game i can see the love for the games

[@AwesomeGamer-om4hm]

Personally, knowing how NiGHTS is obscure nowadays, if SEGA wants yo keep Lost World as a Sonic game, what about making it about both Sonic and NiGHTs teaming up to save both Mobius and Nighttopia? This can introduce the kids to a SEGA mascot of old, reviving the demand.

[@levlarl1463]

Wow, the Lost Hex has barely any history, so I decided to give it some: The Lost Hex is a planet that takes place in the same universe as Ristar (another Sega mascot) and on special occasions, the Lost Hex would travel to other dimensions, that way the Zeti would take appearances from the beings in that universe. You see, when Zeti are born, the only things they have up to that point are horns and their color (which could represent their personality), and they go through a metamorphosis, which includes seeing a living being they see when the Lost Hex is in a new dimension, and by their choice, take on similar traits based on appearance to the being of their choice, hence why Zavok looks like Bowser. That's what I think, for now. Also, someone in the comments thought of the Ristar connection, I just decided to give some more information.

[@savvassavvides6681]

Zavok is basically Bowser but without any charm or personality

[@Knuckles_la_Enchilada]

What an interesting twist of fate, Sonic was meant to be the Antimario and the franchise end up making a Mario rip-off

[@masenmeans5893]

So I understand the sentiment that we don't need Zavok in anymore Sonic games, and I can even agree with pretty much every point you made as to why, but if SEGA's going to be insistant on continuing to use him then I think instead of just complaining about him being around only to fall on death ears, we should instead switch focus on how to improve him as a villain if we're going to forced to keep him around

[@hwtvi3466]

Masen Means I agree.

[@Crystalluss]

0/10 Missed opportunity for a "I found you faker" joke with Bowser and Zavok. ( jk great video. :3 )

[@Umbra_Ursus]

Zavok had some charm in Lost World: He used the others as tests to see how strong Sonic is, seemed to genuinely care about and respect Master Zik, knew how to manipulate without brute force, and damn if he didn't sound good at least. The problem was he didn't have a plan: He pretty much took everything Eggman had up to that point, and used it himself, hence Eggman just taking it back right after. I think it was the Olympics that gave him a bit more to work with: He's shown to be a blood knight, but with some respect to those that can fight well. The problem is he's only devolved the more he shows up. If they want us to like him, play up those traits he had (Pretty smart, manipulator, tactician), and have him sport his *own* plan. Maybe something with resurrecting the remains of Mecha Sonic as a servant, or using the remains of one of Eggman's old armies as a starting point? Point being is he needs his own thing going on.

[@mcqueenspartyisinhell2013]

"Here i come rougher than the rest of, the best of them, tougher than leather, you can call me Zavok, unlike Bowser i don't... complete my task of a villain..."

[@TheLastBabyMan]

What the fan's want: Archie's Egg Bosses. What the fan's get: Deadly Six.

[@GreenEyedPsycho]

Zavok would have been fine for 1 game but nooooooo They had to shove him in every game since lost world

[@verticaldorito]

I swear to god if he is in the 2021 game I will make a SammyClassicSonicFan style video ranting about Zavok’s existence and why it pisses me off.

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

@@verticaldorito yeah you are right

[@CaptainCoolzCT-]

Heavy King is more interesting than Zavok because he's not just a Bowser Clone. He has a motive: Steal the Phantom Ruby at any possible moment and rule the universe with his Hard-Boiled Heavies. He rebels against Eggman similarly, but it’s done right. Eggman initially doesn’t initially know that Heavy King has stopped obeying him and orders him to attack Sonic. When Eggman realises that Heavy King isn’t listening to him he quickly steals it from him, which sparks the Heavies' intention to take it from Eggman and stop Sonic from interfering, kind of like how Shadow is to Modern Sonic. Zavok is done in a way that makes him really boring. At least Heavy King has a good design and isn’t a direct clone of Eggman or Bowser.

[@isislemons303]

The Heavies were so underutilized, They should reappear

[@josephgrube]

@@isislemons303And this is all conveyed without dialogue. Zavok had way more room to work with and he failed miserably

[@skibot9974]

7:50 regarding your ratchet example I’d say that was an example of “Having your cake and eating it too”. The Qwark vid comics were clearly meant to be factual since it restores Qwark’s memory and shows Nefarious’s origin. In addition Deadlocked had ghost robots. You can’t pin the blame at Quest for Booty when they were clearly an established part of the franchise

[@ADiretoria100]

Honestly I disagree that "we dont need him", I always thought a Bowser-copy as a villain for Sonic would be a nice twist than just "evil human with deep intentions number 10", I love when new species and creatures becomes the evil guys (Erazor Djin, Mephiles, Infinite, etc...) and Zavok could bring the Bowser-monster to the table. Tho yes, HE NEEDS something unique, his species and his leadership could bring interesting plot devices to the table, creating a better character for him. He is missing something to make him great and unique compared to Bowser which in spin offs is already a great character. So yeah, dont throw potential out of the game, just explore itm

[@ADiretoria100]

@disabled account I meant on how he said on the video that the point of the series is the nature good of balancr VS the dark intentions of the *human* heart, which I disagree since I belive that there should be more open doors to other species, specially Mobians such as Infinite

[@rainpooper7088]

disabled account And Eggman Nega, Gerald Robotnik and Merlina. Not really „number 10ish“, but there were more human villains than anthro villains. (Those only really were, what, Infinite, Lyric and Imperator Ix? Maybe Fang if you’re *really* stretching the definition? Like come on, most of those aren’t even canon.) I‘m honestly surprised he doesn’t have more of a problem with robotic villains though, like the various Metal Sonic forms, the Hard-Boiled Heavies, Captain Whiskers, the Time Eater, D-Fect, etc. Robots are lazy, you can just do whatever with them and say Eggman build a thing. I‘d rather have aliens like Black Doom or demons like Mephiles than another freaking robot.

[@traktor420]

Sonic THD I think an enthusiastic teenager animal fighting against the evil of the human heart is a more interesting concept then enthusiastic teenage animal fighting some bowser knock off

[@ADiretoria100]

@@traktor420 I didnt said which one is better or that Zavok should replace Eggman. What was even the point by saying that?

[@jamiegioca9448]

What are you on about? There are barely any human villains in Sonic

[@davesinsanestudio8072]

I know it's hard to expect how it is possible considering all the shit show that went with TSR on twitter, but how much you wanna bet his gonna be in next game. Maybe even in the teaser.

[@charactersin-depth3472]

Would not be surprised.

[@rainpooper7088]

Now I‘m expecting the original Sonic Forces trailer, but with Zavok in Classic Sonic‘s place.

[@ge789]

Perhaps there could be much more to Zavok. What happened to the other Zeti? How did Zavok survive? Why IS he working with Eggman again? And why would Eggman be so willing to trust him. An idea might be that the other Zeti had died during the events of Lost World and Zavok was the only survivor (except maybe Zazz, as he has been in the spinoff games too). Leaving him with survivor’s guilt and felling like he wasn’t strong enough to save them, Zavok swore that he would do everything he could to bring them back to life. Knowing that Eggman’s machine could drain life and that it could be reversed, Zavok decided to deceive Eggman into believing that he would work for him, which Eggman would possible fall for, seeing that he didn’t have the Conch anymore. By following his orders, which usually involved furthering Eggman’s agenda and foiling Sonic, the person responsible for the loss of his comrades, Zavok would grow to be more trusted by Eggman, allowing him better access to his tech and getting closer to recreating the life machine. Furthermore, he may have learnt about Shadow’s Chaos Control and Dodon Pa’s time messaging capabilities from Team Sonic Racing (if we consider that canon at all). This could all set up for Zavok’s eventual success in finding a way to bring back the Zeti and uses Eggman’s forces to acquire the parts and energy sources required to do so, regardless of who or what will get in his way. This might add some character that wasn’t really there to begin and I did my best to avoid cliches, but there are probably some still.

[@rainpooper7088]

I would totally read the fanfic of that.

[@KevinKess]

Honestly, I could see that being a great explanation for why Zavok managed to get to be where he is, today.

[@HueManatee]

they did great with zavok and the deadly six in the comics. SPOILERS DUH: the six controlling the zombots because of their special ability was a great use of their characters, and it was a pretty big "how did i not think of that?!" moment. they were simultaneously funny and scary, like a disney villain. overall loved them in the comics

[@angelsegasaturn]

If they used Fang, Bean and Bark then maybe we wouldn't see Zavok again

[@rainpooper7088]

Yeah, the Hooligans are awesome and much better comedic villains.

[@angellopes9353]

I would rather see them than Zavok again for the million time. Actually even Tails Doll is a better option.

[@IvanLerma759]

You know i'm interesting in hearing your thoughts on Ratchet & Clank now after hearing you bring the change in tone from the original to the future games.

[@Lightning-2153]

I gotta be honest, I kind of cringe whenever you use Sonic Unleashed or the Ratchet & Clank PS3 games as examples of bad storytelling, cause those are very near and dear to my heart. I genuinely prefer Unleashed over SA1, and I prefer the PS3 Ratchet & Clank stories over the PS2 ones, because they at least tried to tell sincere stories instead of just relying on bathos. But I agree, Zavok accomplishes nothing, in-universe, or out-of-universe.

[@dink7458]

I agree on unleashed but I haven't played ratchet and clank. Btw your sa3 video is awesome

[@lpfan4491]

The story of unleashed is kinda told badly tho. We just forget past characters except amy who has no purpose in the game....just as a minor example.

[@lpfan4491]

Bad storytelling =/= bad writing. I already mentioned a superficial way the story does not fit in well with the sonicworld because characters who should probably be there like shadow or knuckles are not(which is ironic considering they forced knux into literally every other game in the era, regardless of if he is related to the premise or not). But there are also things like Dark Gaia just being a big monster like Iblis without really impacting much of anything. It just has to be the big thing for chip to seal away and for eggman to unleash. Or how professor henry pickle over there sends sonic to random levels in random orders. But on a basis of how good the story itself is, it is actually pretty darn good outside of sometimes making eggman a joke. SA2 is very nice, yeah. I gotta disagree on SA1 tho, but it would be better if we don't argue that because it is besides the point.

[@masenmeans5893]

@@lpfan4491 literally every mainline 3D Sonic story is told poorly in some way, just because Unleashed focuses on a small selection of old characters instead of trying to shove in more for the sake of pleasing fans doesn't make it bad story-telling. Forces including nearly the entire cast and all they did was mostly stand around while the Sonics and the Avatar did everything

[@lpfan4491]

@@masenmeans5893 Forces was not told badly, the story that was being told was just rubbish. And I said that the cast was just the most minor issue I see with it. Like, 5% of the problem.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

The Deadly Six were so unimportant they weren't even the final boss in their own game.

[@theG00N-G0BLIN]

The only time when Zavok was actually a good villian was in the IDW comics.

[@theG00N-G0BLIN]

@DarkSonic180 Well, that's your opinion, i think the comics are great. I mean, the story of them is better than any of the stories from main line games from the 2010's.

[@austinreed7343]

DarkSonic180 But still better than the games.

[@verticaldorito]

DarkSonic180 I think the comics are good, but are held back by the shitstorm that is the story of Sonic Forces.

[@theG00N-G0BLIN]

@@verticaldorito Well, i mean, they have little to no mention of forces during these recent issues

[@verticaldorito]

Sibusiso Pitsi well the first year in the idw comics did have a lot to do with Forces, and I have a gut feeling that Infinite is gonna come back.

[@redbirdsflock922]

SEGA when they see: Mephiles The Dark- 🤮 Metal Sonic- 😴 Bowser but red- 🤩

[@Jam-og1km]

I feel like they took Zavok, and learned from his problems to make Infinite, so why is he still here? Infinite has his own problems but he is so much cooler and works much better for the sonic series

[@FunaticFan73]

It still pisses me off to this day that Zavok got a boss fight over Chaos and Shadow in Sonic Forces. I would’ve been perfectly okay with his inclusion and the fact that they were all fake since it makes sense, but when Zavok gets a boss fight while the infinitely MUCH cooler Chaos and Shadow for some reason don’t, then it’s a huge fucking problem!

[@konradomorelo6819]

Although I agree that Bowser has more to him than Zavok the fact that Bowser has an amusement park built in his image is Nintendo trying to make Bowser more like Eggman. Not to mention Bowser Mobile and Seven Chaos Princesses XD It was a strange time when main Mario game did some Sonic things and vice versa (although in Sonic Lost World case it was mor apparent) Anyways great analysis! Hopefully Ian Flynn will make something out of Zavok. In IDW Sonic series Zavok is by far the best version of this character but is still far away from being truly good.

[@matiasrivas1692]

One way of making Zavok, or just the deadly six in general, distinct from other Sonic villains is to establish a sort of family dynamic. They're bad guys, they want world domination but they care more about each other's well being, show a real sense of camaraderie and are not above allying with other parties temporarily if it means saving one of their own. In TSR Zavok is under Eggman's mind control and the other 5 ask for Sonic's help to save him, just as a small change.

[@neosolitudexevermore4895]

Everyone: Zavok is a ripoff of Bowser Me: Bowser is a giant Dragon Turtle who wants take over the Mushroom Kingdom and marry Peach, Zavok is a merciless humanoid monstrosity warrior who tried to absorb the life energy of the entire planet just so he could get stronger, literally the only thing they have in common is that they both have giant forms, if anything Zavok is Bowser, if he was edgier, more malevolent, and by all extension pure evil.

[@axelprino]

I kinda like Zazz more than Zavok, a comically incompetent villian that's probably psychotic and uses a big moon robot as a weapon is a lot more interesting as a recurrent foe.