We Don't Understand The Working Class | Aaron Bastani Meets Dan Evans

With more and more strikes taking place and ever rising inequality you'd think the left is brilliantly placed to talk about class with authority. But what if the Labour left and Corbynism as a movement had made a disastrous error when trying to understand the state of our nation? And what if we're still missing a fundamental bit of understanding?
To discuss where the left has gone wrong, Aaron is joined by Dan Evans author of 'A Nation of Shopkeepers: The Unstoppable Rise of The Petty Bourgeoisie'.
You can buy Dan's book here: repeaterbooks.com/product/a-n...
____________________________________________________
Support Novara Media for as little as £1 a month:
novaramedia.com/support
Buy Novara Media merch here:
shop.novaramedia.com/

[@beneverett2392]

The myth of social mobility dangles the carrot that YOU TOO can pull up the drawbridge someday soon, and we can all leave these dirty serfs behind.

[@UNDERDOG18UNDERDOG18]

I certainly got richer!

[@9000ck]

we're all serfs except for the tiny sliver of the ultra rich.

[@SelvesteDovregubben]

​@@UNDERDOG18UNDERDOG18not for long

[@petebateman143]

The goal should not be to improve social mobility. The goal should be to make it unnecessary.

[@farzanamughal5933]

short term goal vs long term goal

[@matthewcoombs3282]

Agree- when do you hear a regional accent on the BBC unless it is Scottish. Nothing form the English regions. An Ethnic minority person is more acceptable to the BBC as a token appointment than a white working class person from say the North East.

[@RiCHeeGee]

We shall all be equally poor.

[@Alex-mj5dv]

It’s never going to able to be unnecessary. It is innate. Otherwise what do sentient humans strive for? Remove the natural element of some form of competition and hierarchy and you fall into even worse dire straits.

[@farzanamughal5933]

@@Alex-mj5dv Any reason you say its innate? Proof its the only thing humans strive for? Self-mprovement does not necessarily mean pushing another fellow human down. Any evidence for your claim in the last sentence?

[@grahamjohn678]

33:30 - I'm sorry Dan, but you shouldn't believe the propaganda about the expansion of the middle class. I'm a teacher and I'm working class. I sell my labour full-time. I don't own the means of production. I have to pay money to a bank every month to put a roof over my head. I don't hire people. I don't fire people. Simple as that. Most people are still working class. The working class just has different layers.

[@karasukafka6918]

Thank you. This. One should not conflict wealth classes and classes in relations to the ownership of the means of production. Sadly the earlier could have a tendency of even understanding working class as a kind of ethnic/nationalistic way, rejecting immigrants and other marginalized group as part of working class. AS frankly we seen around and since Brexit in increased rate.

[@thecolumbopause4961]

You have social class, the greatest class divide in britain today is people with degrees and people without degrees. The statistical & social tracking research that has been done has shown that the majority of degree holders do not socialize majorly with those without. So yes you may not be middle class in terms of wealth but in regards to access to influence networks your are middle class.

[@lloydgush]

Actually...

[@katiez688]

“Access to influence networks” - What kind of access to influence networks do you think a teacher has? Politicians only care about money. You can’t show up to talk to a lawmakers office, flash your degree, and expect to get a meeting and be able to influence how they vote.

[@UNDERDOG18UNDERDOG18]

@@katiez688 exactly. I have multiple degrees. My spouse has none. Money is what counts, literally.

[@conors4430]

If you can convince a peasant, he is actually a king, before you know it, you have another ally to kick the peasants with.

[@alundavies8402]

You have a lackey for the crumbs from your very big table

[@neenaj365]

That’s how the aristocracy was made.

[@oldishandwoke-ish1181]

Excellent quote!

[@patcampton7163]

This was fascinating to me. I'm.75 but I still realise that I can listen and learn and some of my views were changed by this. I shall read the book. Thanks for introducing me to this,Aaron.. I really rate Downstream even though I don't always agree.

[@stevenredpath9332]

The best discussion have 2 key elements: alternative views and respect. We don’t have to agree to have respect and vice versa. My respect ends along with my tolerance around outright lies and political stances that target minorities like trans people, black people, etc.

[@thesprucegosling9574]

Happy to be called out on this as I am no social scientist but it seems to me that social mobility always implies upward mobility. To become a "better person" you need to move up from working to admin to management to executive class. It would be nice if the basic costs of a decent life were more achievable, and the status afforded to people was allocated on the basis of their pride in thier contribution to society, by whatever means, rather than their salary and capacity for material acquisition.

[@petitbourgeois-xi3lm]

Yes, great point (probably a PhD in there, I reckon, hahaha)

[@thesprucegosling9574]

@@petitbourgeois-xi3lm Haha, yes but I am not sure I am clever enough for that anyway, as evidenced by my posting well before I watched the whole video! That's what a couple of Sunday afternoon drinks gets you I guess!

[@thesprucegosling9574]

@@catscan2022 yes agree with all that. A degree (or more) has become an entry fee to the internal feeling of having "made it" which I think misses the point of both higher education and what success really is. At age 47 I have stumbled through GCSE, A level, degree all through lacking the imagination to see that another path might have been a happier one (and therefore more genuinely successful)!

[@ince55ant]

i feel like you're describing the mechanism in which feudalism has lived on through capitalism (and now neo-feudalism)

[@thesprucegosling9574]

@@ince55ant I have quite a lot more reading/learning to do before I can do this thread justice I think! But yes, I think you may be right.

[@lizbrown1822]

When graduates are taking non-graduate jobs, non-graduates move further down the social mobility ladder.

[@Aperki2010]

Soon you'll need a degree to pull pints.

[@matthewcoombs3282]

Higher Education has become a ker-ching! racket. You have to spend 50,000 pounds to get a certificate to join the middle class white collar world. It is a con.

[@sharenwhitlock7737]

I don't understand the attitude of boomers (I am one), we have literally watched the infrastructure of this country collapse because of Tory politics.

[@petitbourgeois-xi3lm]

It's not all boomers (you are one yourself, you say), so there's likely a better way to characterise these splits

[@sharenwhitlock7737]

@@petitbourgeois-xi3lm agreed

[@patcampton7163]

Many boomers like me have never voted Tory .

[@petitbourgeois-xi3lm]

@@patcampton7163 I know. I find the "boomer" thing depressing. Why make good comrades feel alienated and misunderstood when it can easily be avoided?

[@riccles8331]

@@patcampton7163 my never voted tory parents still largely think they worked for and deserved their property gains however

[@Kestral1978]

I'm 45. Corbyn was the best committed British politician in my lifetime

[@dolphine675]

If he ran again I am sure he would battle through the capitalist tanks that shot him down last time

[@100yanGG]

He's the Bernie Sanders of the UK. The best leader the country never had

[@adampeters7947]

It was devastating

[@tommyocallaghan8642]

Ou

[@alicecooper8529]

It is unlikely that we will get another politician like Corbyn. Britain is done.

[@Itsjoemaddock]

Watching this as an American I’m struck by how relatable point-by-point each of these socioeconomic trends are. Clinton / New Labor… Corbin / Bernie… and even the class divisions. I grew up in a small town where my dad was a successful business owner… I now work retail with a college degree.

[@cynthiamartini8982]

And I suppose you could have nearly bought a house with what you spent on university’-‘esp when you include the years of lost pay for nothing

[@wideberth5941]

For me there is a glaring omission in this otherwise much needed conversation: the issue of the hypocrisy of the middle class left defending their right - as they see it - to privately educate their children. And, the destructive effect that has on the working class' opinion of them. The mobility into top jobs afforded by way of nepotism from the social circles their privately educated children gain access to, is apparent and undeniable - just look at the media. The working class know this and have done for many years. When Corbyn quite rightly announced his plans to abolish private education, many of the the middle class left dropped him like a ton of bricks, using the antisemitism allegations as a convenient excuse for their abandonment of him. Many of those same middle classes, then had the audacity to label the red wall as 'thick'. The working classes didn't vote for Johnson because they prefer the toffs, they just believe them to be more honest about their privileges. The left need to understand this.

[@timjkoala7556]

Well made point!

[@browncow7113]

You are right of course. However, I am from a very similar background to Dan, and when I go home, I notice that my old mates - now "petit bourgeois" builders and plumbers - are sending THEIR kids either to private schools, or at least to the poshest school they can. Despite the fact that, when they were at school themselves, they were the ones having a laugh at the back. Middle class leftists may be sickening hypocrites on this, but at least they are aware of the issue.

[@jaredlopez3512]

24:21 what is the genetic similarity within class?

[@skp8748]

​@@jaredlopez3512people marry within class... its not enough that you're a doctor but was your grandfather an archaeologist is your mother an author ect

[@elthamo]

Come on, the middle class left never dropped Corbyn but the middle class liberals always despised him, nothing to do with plans to abolish private education..

[@rlm66101]

Well-educated doesn't mean smart

[@SL-sd3sg]

True, and lower class doesn’t mean not smart

[@northwestcoast]

Confidence in your ability doesn’t equate to competence

[@kerryfry1857]

What a thoughtful person.. Wish people like him could represent us.

[@Coneman3]

Working class have bern demonised for decades.

[@oldishandwoke-ish1181]

Yes, and by the same people that they tend to vote for. But the Tory propaganda tells people that "anyone with a degree looks down their nose at you".

[@valq10]

These Downstreams are always great but this may just be the best one yet. The left needs to hear this over and over again.

[@Retog]

What specifically does the left need to hear over and over again? What is the main message of the video do you think?

[@Zenhumanist]

@@Retog People are nice.

[@Retog]

@@Zenhumanist people are nice? Can you elaborate?

[@Zenhumanist]

@@Retog Okay, I’ll try. People are decent yet shouldn’t be judged because of their circumstances/culture/environment for being on the right. Hence the left needs to hear/understand this. I think that’s the message he’s trying to get across.

[@Retog]

@@Zenhumanist that’s something I’ve understood since I was 16 but I’m a bit fed up of being so patient and understanding after all these years of Tory rule

[@1574john]

14% of the workforce being classed as “Management” is crazy. What are they managing 😂

[@ashwhite8610]

I'm a technical case manager, so a specialist. Whilst i can manage up to 60 people that's not my main job. There is a big distinction between technical and people managers

[@ianwright389]

The NHS apparently. 😂

[@softsophisticate]

Hey? Have you never worked in retail? I have, for example in a store with 10 staff there are 2 managers. The managers have the responsibility of opening and closing the shop, cashing up, making sure money doesn't go missing, recruiting staff, training them, motivating them, dealing with difficult customers, putting the new stock out, health and safety. The staff don't have to worry about any of that.

[@1574john]

@@softsophisticate If you have 8 staff you’re not “Management”.

[@jackoh991]

@@1574johnypu can be a shop manager with ZERO staff. Managers manage something, doesn't have to mean people. If you manager one or more people you're a manager of people. The role manager and being leadership are different

[@gibbions]

Social mobility = Divide and conquer

[@BreezyRider66]

If we used to be a nation of shopkeepers we've become a nation of landlords...

[@MrGlenn442]

*tenants

[@matthewcoombs3282]

Rentier society - extracting wealth from rent. Not putting it into the productive economy.

[@riccles8331]

correct, and "thought leaders" like NM misdescribe this kind of utterly unproductive rentier capitalism with capitalism generally and call for degrowth - no one on the left seems to even accept there is a need to offer an alternative.

[@bdboyo]

Im 47 self employed got a HND, voted blair, left labour because of blair came back because of Corbyn voted leave and Dan sums my views up to a T. The disconnect between nulabour and folk like me is massive Im a socialist and I have no idea where to put my X. Corbyn was on the recieving end of a witch hunt the likes of which ive never seen.

[@riccles8331]

nulabour is listening, no discussion of reversing brexit whatsoever

[@amateurcameraman]

​@@riccles8331they will do a lot of things "without discussion" or even against discussion... See tge signing or Lisbon, or the invasion of Iraq!!!

[@mbride8973]

His point about the intense competition for academic positions etc is prominent in Peter Turchin’s ’End Times’. However, according to Turchin (on the plus side) this ‘elite overproduction’ (one of my daughters has a PhD and has been a postie for the past two years) can have significant revolutionary potential.

[@RiCHeeGee]

That's how it goes, the intellectuals have their revolution, then they butcher those they consider privileged and then they turn upon themselves. I will pay a pretty penny for the scalps of red guard revolutionaries.

[@TheFamousMockingbird]

the us is boiling over with elite overproduction. got ppl with masters degrees out there serving tables at a restaurant

[@matthewhook3375]

@@TheFamousMockingbird especially when they have a mortgage worth of student debt on their shoulders while waiting tables...

[@d.Cog420]

What are your thoughts on where a revolution should take us?

[@mariajoanaandrade663]

Even in STEM, we are also plagued by the managerial class-technical jobs are very devalued

[@OrangeNash]

The follow up book could be called "A Nation of Shoplifters".

[@ahinton23031964]

Working class boy from small town too (hadn't considered it before, but also probably downwardly mobile to some extent). And, yes, people are fine, people are broadly pleasant and try to do the right thing for themselves and by others. The looking down on us from the left in recent times is very strange and counter productive!

[@aarunparmar-cunio688]

As a university student, this was so fascinating - thank you :)

[@bennybenoit754]

I’m over here from the “right”. That was a great interview. 👍

[@mchmch6185]

Bloody hell! For me, that's one of the best Downstreams yet, and they're all good. There have been allusions to the professional managerial class taking over the left in a number of online discussions, but that's the deepest dive on that topic and its consequences that I've seen. 2 hours that flew by.

[@coopsnz1]

I know managers that don't own homes, reaching middle class is knowledge control of your money

[@ince55ant]

theres a good bit on this in Adam Curtis' "cant get you out of my mind"

[@jamesespinosa690]

The "right" have been trying to tell you this for decades now. But you guys are too smug and arrogant to listen. And I'm not saying this to insult or belittle you.

[@coopsnz1]

@@jamesespinosa690 educated in left leaning government school

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@coopsnz1Correct.

[@LuisCarruthers]

I'm "right-wing" by today's ridiculous standards and I found this very enlightening.

[@tomlangford1999]

Love these long form interviews. Keep it up guys

[@josephineh6154]

Never heard of Dan Evans before this...what an interesting guy. Thank you Novara for another great downstream!

[@ashwinisarah]

What an insightful conversation this was! Thank you!!

[@an4189]

There is a trend over the past few years by the media splitting voting intentions by education level rather than say class or location. The issue with this is if you say the working class are voting this way, you can say well they have different wants and values so that’s why they vote differently. However, if you say those without degrees are voting this way, it is easily dismissed as they are voting that way because they are not clever enough to understand the issues.

[@julietgunn4921]

Loved this conversation. Thank you both

[@jimscarlet]

Dan's book is brilliant, a must read for everyone on the left, for anyone who's serious about understanding the mess we're in now...and how we can possibly change it. Great interview, really enjoyable.

[@Ben-db5re]

Where did you get his book from?

[@DavidMBRichardson]

What do we mean by "working class" nowadays? Do we just mean "poor people"?

[@coopsnz1]

Lower class, net worth over $200000 is middle class

[@TableTopWolf1984]

50% of this country earns 25k a year or lower, that's what I'd call proper working class, anyone just above is lower middle class, but the main issue is former working class folk did well for themselves under labour in 97 till 09 an they become what they are supposed to hate an look down on people underneath them now

[@coopsnz1]

@@TableTopWolf1984 £60000 is middle class

[@TableTopWolf1984]

@@coopsnz1 less than 10% of the country earn that much money, so your wrong

[@coopsnz1]

@@TableTopWolf1984 because most of the country lower class , not middle class that shrinks because of more socalism policies

[@matham625]

1:05:50 what you don’t understand is that a shop keeper, Taxi driver (London cab esp) plumber, carpenter, electrician, stonemason... small business owner.. etc... IS EDUCATED.. sometimes highly.. if not formally then a least through practice.. in fact they are as educated as many Degree Level university Graduates. Anecdotally, I know of 2 “downwardly mobile” university grads; one with a Masters and one with a Bachelor’s degree, that decided to become London Cab drivers. They both said “the knowledge” was far more difficult and stressful than any other formal education they had experienced. An understanding of why people choose university and why others don’t should not be purely conceived through the bias of the meritocracy. Ability is not the only reason people choose not to go to uni.

[@jackoh991]

Agreed although the Knowledge is difficult because you need a lot of know, ie remember a lot. Degrees are meant to be difficult not because you have to remea lot but because it's meant to educate you how to think in logical and intelligent ways about the world. For example, understanding how to run a scientific rigorous experiment should give you the skills to assess news stories as bat shit or not. Not sure people actually learn that at uni, but that's the idea. It's not about remembering its about understanding

[@johnmoorefilm]

Dan Evans❤ great book …bought 4 copies😮 the joy of seeing peoples faces as i gift them the book is priceless….😊

[@MrCaptainRoscoe]

You need more people like Dan, actually talking and explaining the class structure. You guys should get John Welshman on here, he's got a book called "Underclass: A History of The Excluded" and I'd love to hear Aaron interview him

[@dazpatreg]

'John Welshman' sounds like a toff trying to sneak into a working men's club needed to think of a 'common' name off the cuff

[@DavidSmith-oy4of]

Peter Joseph would be an amazing interview.

[@sonnyvarioni1654]

If Novara, or just the left in general, was a bit more Dan Evans and a bit less Yas Kween Ash Sarkar they would have my solidarity.

[@grosstross2218]

Darren Mcgarvey

[@mb7290]

​@@sonnyvarioni1654What specifically do you disagree with? Or is it literally just Sarkar's personality you don't like?

[@chonkybits]

In reference to HE points - The best decision I ever made was to do a mechanical apprenticeship in the power industry. I completed my NVQ four years ago. I get pestered by recruitment every day. I'm finally moving onto doing my HNC and then hopefully onto HND and a Bachelors so I can move up into those even higher paying roles. With that there will be a degree and over 2 decades of actual job experience to back it up by the time I'm 40. The best direction in the UK job market if you are just coming out of school would be to get a craft apprenticeship in STEM roles (granted that they interest you). Learn and work that craft for essential skills and knowledge specific to a job, whilst earning. Once you get to a position where you feel like you should take it to a higher level, study for your higher nationals and move onto degrees. Obviously there are more higher professional roles where University is the only path you can go down. However, most of the good stuff out there in the job market requires vocational skills and being out at the coal face. Go get it first, then do your education.

[@alfsmith4936]

Pick fruit? Grade vegetables? Sell stuff to people? Clean? Lie to jobcentre staff?..

[@dorsetengineering]

@@keithparker1346 Get into the trades... Something skilled like refrigeration. People always need stuff kept cold...

[@dorsetengineering]

@@keithparker1346 go on then, explain it for me….

[@T3-RIDER]

​@@keithparker1346talent for STEM? you have no idea😂 bless you, I work in engineering and there are dead heads taking home £20 an hour welding

[@51gan788]

What an excellent convo. Someone on the left with actually a different view on things. This definitely gave me a lot to think about

[@sajjadrezaei91]

wow ... this mate totally hit me with new viewpoints on class structure that I've never thought about before

[@bnc_kfr]

Great interview, probably best downstream ever if u ask me… need to have more people like Dan!

[@edwardsexby3402]

What Dan is describing is basically my life! I will check out this book, great interview.

[@skp8748]

Yep especially with that delaying of REAL life goals like starting a family, setting up roots and finding a groove for some ephemeral social goal.

[@LadyMorrigan]

As someone whose PhD failed because of COVID and has been struggling in the job market, this really came at the perfect time. I dont live in the UK, but this attitude of assuming I was better than the class beneath me because of my education has struck very true. I would often look at people working as shopkeepers or in restaurants or whatever, and think to myself "I wont end up like them." Its definitely time for a change in how I look at people working those jobs I used to think were so beneath me, especially as I get closer and closer to admitting I have to work one of those jobs myself just to get by.

[@dalejason]

That's just called Kama

[@michawill6599]

That reminds me of that skit. James studied history of art at a Russell Group university. His job barely pays the rent of his 1 bed flat. John did an apprenticeship in electrical engineering and earns £80K a year. He is about to cut James off for non payment.

[@PazLeBon]

@@michawill6599 the electrIcian is far more useful to society

[@michelledavies2197]

​@@PazLeBonsay that when you want some milk or bread urgently

[@PazLeBon]

@@michelledavies2197 I CAN BAKE MY OWN AND IM VEGAN

[@montyriviera795]

Good to see an intellectual who's a little more 'grounded' than some I've listened to. I think this guy understands the Brexit phenomenon. It's been oversimplified by many commentators and politicians . Dan has a greater insight, he's dumped the stereotypes, he's dug deeper. Good post.

[@cathalssupermegahappyfunti223]

Why would you vote remain? Why would a socialist support. Neo-liberal structure?

[@coopsnz1]

It not neoluberlism uk it left social democracy the both liars

[@coopsnz1]

The government steal 40% of your money in taxes

[@corndoggydogdog]

So refreshing to hear. Thank you lads

[@peterlayzell7245]

Thorough, wide ranging and nuanced analysis - this is why I am here.

[@AdamCiernicki]

That reminds me of a Birthday Party I attended around 2010, friend of a friend, he was a cook wife's a cleaner. We sat down with them and their friends from work, had a chat... Then suddenly one of the young kitchen workers said his dream is to earn good living, a decent salary like 25K a year. It made me realise many things in that moment.

[@h.astley2113]

aaron's observation about managerial parents raising managerial activists is inspired

[@malcolmrobinson4652]

Excellent interview, one of the best you've had.

[@francycranc]

Best one yet, amazing talk.

[@philipnorthfield]

This pretty much sums up a considerable proportion of the Essex mindset.

[@jonash154]

Loving the Downstream interviews!

[@graceomalley4]

Brilliant interview. Brilliant man. This explains so much. Thank you 🙏

[@LLLewelyn]

Another great conversation. Thank you for posting ideas. Legends.

[@BD-yl5mh]

The important thing to remember if you’re experiencing downward social mobility is to make the distinction between “I’m losing and that needs to be fixed,” and “I’m perhaps sliding down the ladder a bit (probably ‘rightly,’ I’m not special, I chose the wrong career path, etc.), and it’s giving me the chance to see life below the station at which I grew up. And it sucks. This is good motivation to help advocate for better conditions for people at and below this level”

[@jamiepanter3218]

Well said. Not everything is someone else's fault.

[@mikespurs4717]

Great interview and very thought-provoking.

[@ShintoBroadcasting]

Great conversation, enlightening! Thank you.

[@JJ-rv7tt]

16:50 this resonated a lot with me I remember as I was in school, the teachers talked to us like it was a foregone conclusion that we need to apply to university, and had course after course telling us how best to do our UCAS applications, and what extra curricular activities we needed to do to get a best chance. I ended up going to university, because I wasn't aware it was an option _not_ to go. It was a really miserable 5 years

[@zxyatiywariii8]

This is exactly why I'm grateful I never attended school in any form. A friend of mine has spent YEARS clawing her way out from under the abysmal depths of student loan debt.

[@xanatax1844]

I worked as a high school teacher once, and we *had* to prep the kids for Uni. 😇 I took a pause one day, and tried to explain, not all of you may need or want a university degree. 👍 We had a class convo about jobs people do that *don’t* need a degree, and whether anyone was interested. 😅 Could see a few kids perk right up at the idea of a Trades School … like, “there’s a school I could do automotive mechanics? I love cars!” … one was going to be a pilot, we all agreed he wants lots of Flight School, not a Uni degree. 😂 One planned to own a retail business, possibly a franchise … going to Uni, because smart, top grades, it was expected … but actually getting a degree doesn’t really matter? That one could take several accounting classes, some intro lawyering, see if the MBA people have anything interesting 😂 learn anything that might be useful, and just leave anytime. 🤷‍♀️ Purely going to LEARN, not “get the piece of paper.” 💜👍 love it. 😊 oh, iirc, I also had the “hot-take” about high-tech computer stuff … you may want “Private Certification” … like a class from Oracle, or Cicso, or Microsoft? sooo different from Uni.

[@pamplemouse5]

Exactly. Because I was good in science & maths i was told it was only normal I'd go into higher education. At a parents - teachers meeting I was told by my maths teacher that if I was to take up an apprenticeship there would be graduates going in above me on the career ladder. I didn't know how to say at the time that I didn't care, I just wanted a trade and I'd be happy doing that work all my life. I wish now that I'd pushed harder to get into an apprenticeship against my caregivers telling me I should go into academia.

[@nicholasjohnferriman8283]

This is good, very good. I have someone at long last - thank you Dan - articulating the value of the working classes. They are central to the UK's prosperity, and if they are not on board, then the progressive forces will fail.

[@joemerino3243]

He's pro Just Stop Oil. That's the ultimate middle management 'Let them eat cake' project that does the absolute maximum damage to the working class. Oil is what turns peasants into working class. Without oil, they go back to being literally bound to the land by bicycle ranges.

[@nicholasjohnferriman8283]

If he is pro Just Stop Oil then he has become one of the PAMs (professional, academic, and managerial class). That is what can happen if you spend too long in universities.

[@joemerino3243]

@@nicholasjohnferriman8283 I do agree with you that 'managerialism' is a real thing, and it has taken over the professionals and academics of the world, but I can't see classes as being such strong categories. It really seems to me that Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are in some real way opposed; perhaps you disagree? And of course such internecine conflict occurs in the middle and lower classes as well. I guess I think more in terms of values and ideologies than economic class interests. There's so many examples of people in one economic class knowingly working against the interest of their class, not because of false consciousness but because of what they value or what ideology they hold.

[@nicholasjohnferriman8283]

@@joemerino3243 Dear Joe (?), I think the class categories may not be as pronounced as 40-50 years ago, but there are characteristics which help still define them. Yes, economics is one of them and is probably central as it determines the level of material well-being: where one lives; quality of education; access to healthcare; leisure activities; exposure to crime. Ideology and values are affected by income (and assets held). For example, the richer one is the more one can buy a fast solution to a health scare. Why would one want to socialise privilege? Entrenching privilege benefits one's children, a powerful motivating force, but it downplays community - "I got here because of my hard work" (the petite bourgeoisie which Dan Evans writes). The freer one becomes the less one needs a support system.

[@paulwary]

Bound to the land by bicycle ranges? Wtf does that mean?

[@erinaltstadt4234]

1:46 is very relevant. The way that certain upper middle class people on the left feel comfortable giving orders to people is extremely obnoxious

[@adrianlister9955]

That was brilliant.❤

[@stpfpw]

Unbelievable how interesting and truthful I found a lot of this to be, articulated a lot of what I’ve seen first hand but couldn’t put into words if I tried

[@jamied4106]

Great vid. Will definitely be buying the book. Fun drinking game - Take a shot everytime they say petit bourgeoise

[@ironhammer4095]

Another great conversation. Well done to both of you.

[@stmatthewsisland5134]

Brilliant interview from start to finish, I particularly found the discussion on management enlightening.

[@skuttlebucket]

Truly thoughtful discussion. Excellent and so informative, Thanks.

[@James-wy6qu]

Bang on - great to hear Novara having this conversation (which I think is fairly self-critical, at least implicitly..)

[@Andrew-rc3vh]

I figured out this regarding university when I got to the place. One thing I had before I got there though was a suspicion of authority. I had already learnt that if someone is trying to sell you something you run your checks before buying it. I looked at the ratio between lecturer and student. I checked in the library on the job stats. Before I got there I did not have the information. Fortunately this was in the days of government grants. I don't think I would have been so keen had I had to sign a student loan contract.

[@Saharah253]

Just brilliant as always

[@wyvernlambi1892]

We need more conversations in the uk about class systems. This is the only subject which can lead to change.

[@ForlornFea]

Glad to hear someone talk honestly about Academia. I really wanted to get into it, but all that awaited me were unstable TA jobs. It was clear that tenured professors expected me to sacrifice financial security and long term prospects for unstable “passionate” work. It’s a scam.

[@BillieJeanIs]

Academics have their biases (oh yes they do, and they usually don't realise them), but the pursuit of knowledge that can't be monetised under capitalism is not a "scam". It's the system we live under that's a fucking scam where we're expected to work to survive even though there aren't enough jobs for everyone (check David Graeber's bullshit jobs), or the only jobs you can access pay poverty wages, so the government ends up subsidising shit business models by filling the gap through welfare. The problem is that the benefits of increased productivity aren't shared across society anymore because we don't tax corps and the rich enough, and they no longer have to employ as many people due to automation, so they hoard an increasingly larger portion of what they used to pay out in wages. Inequality is the problem. If we had appropriate levels of taxes on corps and the rich, we could redistribute resources across society, and then you would be able to pursue your "passionate work" even if it's commercially "unprofitable", and you would be a net benefit to society because you'd contribute to the advancement of your field instead of doing some corporate bullshit job that literally contributes nothing beside paying your bills (I'm speaking from experience here). The issue with academics is that they stupidly believe in meritocracy, but a passion for knowledge is not valueless just because you can't get paid enough for it in a profoundly fucked up system we are currently living in.

[@darrenpat182]

Hear hear!

[@karengrainger5545]

Interesting interview. Totally agree about the disdain with which "porgressives" talked about leavers.

[@opanike87]

Absolutely smashing.

[@james2450]

This is so compelling thank you! Definitely going to read his book.

[@nickcarlton7384]

Best conversation yet. We need to understand each other more. The ultimate divide is the top 1% and the rest of us.

[@aidanjohnkelly]

Jeremy was destroyed by the right-wing press, not his fictional alignment with the PMC, chaps.

[@LeeJohnApeDor]

Corbyn was treated terribly by the press, but it was Labour's Brexit policy that obliterated his chances in the end, and part of the reason for that policy was to pander to remainer middle classes. The kind of people that actually like Starmer.

[@jonthomas9708]

In the 80's I favoured UK membership of the Enn. I saw it as an anchor to the progressive social democracies of Europe. Later I saw it as the absolute opposite. A privatisation machine, a tool of US control, a means of political capture through the lack of monetary sovereignty and a lock-in to US driven neoliberal economics. I voted to leave. According to my former "comrades" I had to be ignorant and racist for my position. Since the EU commission has obediently and enthusiastically joined a US created war in Ukraine - to the disastrous economic ruin of Europe - I feel totally vindicated

[@danieljohnson1924]

This is a really interesting conversation. Novara is so interesting - it produces some absolute garbage but also some good stuff.

[@BreezyRider66]

If every job paid a decent, living (in the true sense) wage, social mobility would be irrelevant. It's all that most people want, is not too much to ask in a rich country & when the likes of Sunak witter on about the politics of envy they'd do well to remember this...

[@jeffsimon9594]

When the borders are thrown open to masses of unskilled people, wages go down and rents go up, that is just Economics 101.

[@debbiewright8452]

Housing costs come down you don't need such high wages either

[@davidj7201]

Going to university does not make you better than everyone else.

[@KapnScumdreg]

Really interesting interview. Excellent in depth debate.

[@Red-px1fr]

Great interview. This all chimes so much with my experience of being now in my 30s and from a lower middle class family. I definitely fall within the young leftist petit bourgeoisie cohort talked about here, while my dad unfortunately epitomises the older petit bourgeoisie far right. It feels strangely therapeutic to hear this analysis.

[@johnwilliam6092]

Two people with PhDs talking about working class people... Wtf is this? Having said that, I'm only about 15 minutes in. I'm very much working class poor - ask me anything 😂

[@mattysav4627]

U can be from a working class background and get a Phd Being educated doesn’t change ur class position it’s just more likely the higher class receive better conditions. Class is ur relationship to the means of production.

[@mattysav4627]

Better education I mean

[@johnwilliam6092]

@@mattysav4627 Well, non of these talking heads from the video are working class - with of without a PhD.

[@thepiouswelshman]

great interview

[@Benislionheart]

This might be the best one yet. Fascinating conversation. Lots to think about

[@purplesheep99]

Very interesting interview. Just bought his book. Dan speaks a lot of sense

[@mbrierley144brierley3]

Crushed grey velvet and astroturf. Love the description.

[@hariowen3840]

When a few years ago 'everyone' started to go to 'university', and also, every college (or almost every) became an 'university' - it was inevitable that eventually even the bin-man would either need, or indeed have, some type of university degree.

[@benfisher1376]

It's a business like everything else.

[@hariowen3840]

@@benfisher1376Absolutely and utterly irrelevant to the points raised in my comment - bye now!

[@t-rubble4799]

Here from The Lotus Eaters, and I will watch the whole thing.

[@TheSpoovy]

At 1:08:28 You hit on something I've never heard before but I have personal experience of. I was always a progressive, but I went through a period of about eight years following the GFM in 2008/9 when after being financially wiped out and seeing my career ended, I swerved very markedly to the right. I thought at the time it was just me getting older, being less naive etc. But by the time I was safely ensconced in a new profession and financially stable again, I came back to the left. I have never truly understood it but your analysis seems scarily accurate.

[@tapiwanyakabau4058]

What he said about Thatcher is really eye opening and the left should take note. How does the left pull back the petty bourgeoisie and unite them with the traditional working class, is the question that will need to be addressed. Thatcher united the petty bourgeoisie with the managerial class, at the expense of the working class. The left should be doing this in reverse at the expense of the managerial class. Unfortunately left wants to unite everyone. We need to realize that not everyone needs to be brought into the project. Stamer led new, new labour is solely focused on the managerial class. Time to vote green.

[@davidpryle3935]

The left (whatever that means these days) cannot unite the working class with anyone, because apart from some trade unions, the working class find the left repulsive.

[@TheFamousMockingbird]

by finally stop using the term petty bourgeoisie like we are either french or in the 19th century, seriously we have words for working class and the managerial and upper class. we don't have to use proletariat and bourgeoisie like they are some holy sacraments,

[@davidpryle3935]

@@TheFamousMockingbird I sort of agree with you. But its difficult to let go of those words, they are very descriptive. Speaking about some people I have known, the term petty bourgeois, for some reason seems to describe them better, than lower middle class. You know what I mean, certain attitudes and characteristics, the term lower middle class does not seem adequate somehow.

[@tapiwanyakabau4058]

@@TheFamousMockingbird ok, is terms like New affluent workers class, Traditional working clas, and Technical middle class more fitting for you ? The use of petty bourgeoisie as a reference to what was being said in the pod. He even explains that our usual 3 tier class structure really doesn't reflect reality very well. Which is why I used it

[@elthamo]

Very interesting discussion. When the Farage thing happened, none of the people I follow or me thought it was a good thing for someone's bank account to be closed because of their politics and I didn't many that did. The same applies to no platforming, freedom of expression is essential.

[@nk-gp1ml]

Agree. But there were specific issues in the case of Farage. Was he even telling the truth? Not something he is known for. Farage is so obnoxious and has caused so much damage to the country and many individuals, the initial response is not to side with or feel sorry for him.

[@wyntog]

Great interview, ironically as you were talking about the posh in Cardiff I was running around Cyncoed listening on headphones. The problem is that all the shopkeepers are now landlords.

[@cooldud1988]

So insightful learnt a great deal.

[@Nick-kb6jd]

How do we countenance upward social mobility and the need to reduce our consumption and impact on Earth? Surely the only way that is possible is through a reduction in the overall average consumption of resources, globally. Doesn't that mean that us in the West need to reduce our footprint? Is Western upwward mobility possible under those circumstances. Even if we outlaw billionaires overnight, how much leeway does that give us for increased social mobility and so global consumption. In short, how do you understand class politics and upward mobility based on material conditions, in a world of Global Boiling?

[@RiCHeeGee]

The first track on the Dead Kennedy's album "Fresh fruit for rotten vegetables" hold the solution.

[@IrritatedBear]

Very very relatable stuff

[@brainbane8550]

The man talks about how the culture of the region he came from was hard graft, pay in cash, work until you drop. People economically lifted themselves using largely hands on skills they developed and were extremely skeptical about interference from The State. Libertarianism, a more honest and realistic version of anarchism. University is simply the beginning of the graft. Anyone expecting a high paying job straight out of uni is kidding themselves. The question I have is, if we're not going to use government for its purpose, which is to provide national services that improve the lives of the population, then why do we have a government? The NHS is about to be privatised and is one of the last institutions that falls under the responsibility of the government aside from the emergency and armed forces, which are also already heavily privatised. After that, what's the point of paying multimillionaire politicans like Boris Johnson and Jacob Mogg to pass public money into the hands of their multimillionaire friends when they're not taking naps on the benches?

[@funbarsolaris2822]

…. because without a government a country will collapse instantly... There has never been a functioning country without a working government in all human history and there never will be. A brief bit of reflection will make you realise relying on only private markets for roads, schools, military, laws, police, sewage and water management and so on is completely impossible and unworkable if its just individuals just doing whatever they want with only profit interest as their guide. You cannot have laws without a state, a state cannot function without a government. I understand your point that we are getting a bad deal though, all the impositions of government and none of the benefits, however the solution isn't getting rid of the government but improving it

[@sandystuff1827]

a pressure cooker needs n outlet valve otherwise it would explode. Take away government the lower classes have no bafflement to their disillusion and dissatisfaction and you'd have continuous periodical revolts.

[@jonathaneffemey944]

Thanks for posting.

[@kenwarren4441]

My dad got a 2 tech degree in aviation immediately after high school. Taught me to do a brake job and charge the oil in my car.. He has removed and replaced engines in airplanes, cars, tractors, harvesingt in equipment, probably the most complex equipment on a farm. If I say, I’m having an electric problem in my car or my house he shows up with a voltage meter, first checking ohms, okay the wires are connected and able to transmit electricity, then check’s voltage and amperage, maybe other things I have no idea about. Re roofed houses in 70 by himself. I’m impressed

[@kenwarren4441]

2 year

[@kenwarren4441]

In his 70s