Everything You Know About The Future is Wrong | Aaron Bastani meets John Gray

John Gray's writing on political philosophy is not easily pigeonholed. Over the last 50 or so years, he has favoured ideas that span the political spectrum and pissed almost everybody off - his central thesis being that growth and progress are not inevitable.
In his new book, his attention turns to the changing fate of 'the west'. This, to him, means a revival of old forms of living: feudalism, religious orthodoxy and ultra-nationalism.
Aaron sat down with John to talk about the nonsense of centrism, the US opioid epidemic and why Dune is the most worthwhile work of science fiction.
Novara Live broadcasts every weekday from 6PM on KZbin and Twitch.
Episodes of Downstream are released Sundays at 6PM on KZbin.
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[@Ln-cq8zu]

We are not in capitalism, we are in a technocratic Tyrannical Oligarchy. In the guise of globalism 😢

[@AlJay0032]

That is the crazy thing. People believe we live in capitalism while we are far away from real free markets. To me this crony capitalism is a form of socialism despite the word "capitalism" in the name and the governments' central planing is also far away from free markets, forcing solar and wind and electric cars on us when no one really wants them other than for virtue signaling. It is not far from the fascism we had were the government tell the companies what to produce.

[@zedhex]

If you think the UK is currently a technocratic tyrannical oligarchy, you really haven't done much travelling. There are plenty of countries that are far worse. Try Iran, North Korea, Russia, China or pretty much anywhere that those countries are allied with.

[@angelosenteio]

Techno-feudalism

[@Linda-iw5sj]

Yes I’m thinking capitalism is being blamed for the global corporatism.

[@JamesWalker-ky5yr]

Techno-feudalism, corporatism and the like are apologia for capitalism, i.e. capitalism is benign if only people behaved well. Not so, capitalism is made to cause suffering in service of winners in an exhaustive race of expansion with finite resources and a fragile ecosystem.

[@BobbyDazzler888]

FREE JULIAN ASSANGE

[@geodav5700]

GOD BLESS HAMERIKÀ. LAND OF THE BRAVES HOME OF DA 3

[@Ludd439]

Oh alright! But only if you ask nicely!

[@brunoheggli2888]

Lock him up forever!

[@MasterBlaster3545]

Go on then. He is going to America to spend the rest of his life in jail. Nothing you or anybody can do about it.

[@genestone4951]

FREE ASSANGE!!!

[@caramelbaba]

Finally, a piece of media where I feel i’m not losing brain cells watching. Thank you.

[@noelfleming3567]

Have u found yours 😂😂

[@paulstewart6293]

I thought you'd be listening, visually, it wasn't too shocking.

[@rosevivo9387]

😂,😂😂😂😂

[@Gabby-bot]

I also worked at a small mine in 1988 in the Kingdom of Norway. It was most educational..

[@mario9318]

I even gained some 😊

[@QQ_241]

You gotta love the phrase "if something is actually happening then it is definitely possible".

[@electron8262]

Best quote of the video

[@InParticularNobody]

2nd. The best is 'Brec-shit'. 30:00

[@k-h969]

Thank you so much, this was an enlightening conversation. Great host and guest. In my view, this is exactly what the BBC should be producing, not worthless programmes like Politics Live. I’m a recent subscriber, keep up the great work.

[@subcitizen2012]

It's an impossibility for BBC to produce programming like this. Lower your expectations, the state will never subvert itself in its media.

[@immikhanUK]

Thank you for highlighting Politics Lice is worthless. It’s not just me then.

[@Exanto777]

The bbc is a failed project and may not exist in ten years time.

[@mick947]

The BBC is now only interested in click bait type sensationalism ..bread and circuses for the masses. I’m sorry we’ll have to finish there, we’ve ran out of time!

[@Lyra0966]

I finally disengaged fully from the BBC in March of 2022 after being subjected to its nauseating decontextualised coverage of the Ukraine crisis. I now really do think of the BBC as no better than a state sponsored propaganda arm.

[@vonduus]

Totalitarianism of our time will not come from the far right nor from the far left, but from the political centre. Great interview, thx, John gray just sold me some of his books! Cheers from Denmark!

[@pseudonayme7717]

Likely true. A scary kind of consensus. 😮

[@DecMurphy]

The centre just serves the right. In reality it's not the left, centre and right as three distinct groups, it's the left vs the centre and the right. Centrists are just less explicit in their desire to control everything dictatorially and use pseudo-progressive rhetoric to mask their true intentions. So it will come from the alliance of the centre and the right.

[@verraguid]

they side with the right on the whole too

[@lucsmilton6318]

Yes, because there is no centre. The centre is three squeezes from fascism: squeeze them once they become right, squeeze them again they become far right and with a tiny little squeeze they become straight-out fascists

[@lesb-fe2jf]

@@verraguid yeah, thats why if you burn the british flag, it's classed free speech, if you burn the rainbow flag, well, you're going to prison for inciting hatred, because the neo-liberal ruling class favours the right.. "OK". I can't help but think as people on the right get their door kicked in at 3am and their cpu seized, while novara media personalities get on primetime establishment tv, that the ruling class favours the right. "OKAY"

[@jiggsborah7041]

I worked at a mine in a small African country with a lot of Englishmen back in the 80's and nineties. I remember the hot arguments we all had in the pub around Thatcher's policies. I'm only a Mechanic but I do understand that certain things cannot be privatised because business is dependent on them. Power production for instance is something that should be left to the government. Even if it's done at a loss the money is still collected through taxes because cheap energy leads to jobs and a vibrant economy.

[@justinjefferson5831]

You are stupidly suggesting that government makes things more economical. According to this ignorant belief, the fact that full socialism leads to mass starvation is just some kind of strange coincidence. The problem with your argument is you cannot explain what it is about power generation that makes it a special case.

[@jimgraham6722]

Yes, there is a difference between essential services and more mundane goods where the market provides a lot of choice.

[@jiggsborah7041]

@@justinjefferson5831 ...it's quite patently obvious that there are some things that MUST be kept out of the hands of "business " people as they are open to abuse. And government itself has to be kept OUT of business because business is none of ITS business.

[@justinjefferson5831]

@@neildear True. But so what? What follows from that? The mere fact that we have a problem does not justify jumping to the conclusion that government is the solution, is my point. The very least we need is some kind rational assessment of the net benefits, which they can never provide, because they can't know the subjective values involved. Power generation could not be a better example. I very much appreciate it. But that doesn't mean that only the government could do it, or do it economically, does it? And in case you haven't noticed, the governments themselves are now agreed that their generation of power in the last 100 years was THE WORST THING IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, that's going to make the planet uninhabitable, and that now no cost must be spared in order to correct for this catastrophe by granting government unlimited powers over anything and everything. Not much of an advertisement for the usual facile presumption of governmental omniscience and benevolence, is it?

[@scottpulver]

The common thread...no matter the structure of society... Corrupt government is the downfall of any society.

[@amyjones2490]

Feudal lords knew that they needed peasants to support them. Our feudal overlords don’t think they need us peasants. We are a nuisance to them.

[@Padraigp]

What do you produce for the overlords?

[@liamlenihan1328]

Read Black Mass as a student back in the mid 2000s and remember John Gray lecturing in University College Cork and annoying both liberals and conservatives in the audience. Great to see him on the excellent Novara Media.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Yes, John Gray is interesting, but sadly irrelevant in the face of anthropogenic climate heating. It's a no brainer. Continually discussing political shades of Gray, excuse the pun, will never get human civilisation anywhere. We have a potential imminent 0.71 watts per square metre warming in the Antarctic due to a once in 7.5 million year event of the melting of 2 million Sq km of sea ice, equivalent to an Arctic blue ocean event. Meanwhile the population is stuck on economic and philosophy theory.

[@mandydarcy-kincaid1303]

​@@brianwheeldon4643you've hit the proverbial nail on the head.. Nobody wants to talk about it, look at it, acknowledge it. It's the one thing that is certain in our lifetimes.

[@mixerD1-]

Anthropogenic climate heating eh... If you throw enough waffle, someone will eventually eat it.

[@liamlenihan1328]

@brianwheeldon4643 Don't disagree with you Brian. Two things can be true and Aaron made the point well: John Gray is very insightful and we need more than pessimism i.e. some "utopian" thinking that is nevertheless practical - as capitalism is anything but practical.

[@harrypmay]

@@brianwheeldon4643 John Gray is responsive to Gaia theory so he may have an inclination to believe that humans, or a form of human, are going to be here as long as the Gaia system needs them.

[@andykennedy2536]

John Gray top top man "Like cheap music, the myth of progress lifts the spirits as it numbs the brain"

[@mikemotorbike4283]

It's a pleasure to witness a conversation where the knowledgeable speaker always takes a moment to reflect on their response, instead of merely recapitulating a script like a runaway train. I love the way he educates me on politics by deconstructing the status quo and then re-presents them- adding a novel and palatable perspective, allowing us to see some light.

[@thulyblu5486]

Thank you for this meaningless word cloud. You should go into politics.

[@nickstone3113]

Exactly how I feel

[@nickstone3113]

Romania and Hungary

[@angrytedtalks]

AI couldn't have written a more vacuous advert if it tried.

[@kirstinstrand6292]

Very astute observation. ❤

[@everettmcmunn]

im 41 and i learned these things a long time ago and it infuriates me when i try to tell people this stuff and they just dont get it and don't want to hear it, like it is some kind of heresy or something. We teach the holocaust but don't teach or talk about what brought about any of the societal pressures to allow it to emerge, like it just fell from the sky and oops, millions of people died...sorry.

[@Yoyoyo224]

You are witnessing one today Yes there are good caring folks out there But look at the attitude of the majority "I'm alright jack"

[@inquisitive8903]

Why did it happen??

[@MikeL-7]

Great interview, wish I’d known of John Gray’s work sooner. Another example of Novara’s essential work in keeping the public informed to a degree unthinkable in the mainstream media.

[@geekerella7296]

This is one of the most interesting, intelligent, stimulating discussions I've seen in years. Thanks so much for this.

[@pswestport]

I quite agree. It’s been a very long time since I’ve been hanging on to every word presented and wanted to hear more.

[@NVRAMboi]

My understanding and world view are both improved for having watched/listened to this brilliant conversation. Thank you.

[@pricklypear7497]

This was one of the most interesting conversations that I have heard in recent times. We are too used to being fed a starving diet of superficial conversations. This one sunk it's teeth properly into the subject matter. Thank you!

[@chrisruss9861]

Well said.

[@majorblazer9055]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🌍 Populism is a reaction to social disruptions caused by liberal policies. 02:19 🌐 Globalization was seen as inevitable and irreversible during a specific historical context. 08:57 📈 The belief in constant exponential growth and progress is a flawed notion. 17:44 💼 The current system can be worse than feudalism as many people have no productive roles in society. 22:59 🌟 The idea of continuous, linear progress in society has been challenged, with many not expecting future generations to have better lives. 23:42 🏠 Many young people today can't afford to own or rent a house, especially in expensive cities like London. 25:15 🌍 Capitalism's evolution: from religion being the opium of the masses to the promise of a prosperous future to now a sense of no future. 27:46 🌐 Post-World War II, social democracies aimed to moderate inequality and mitigate suffering, but this approach changed with globalization. 30:17 💼 Today, advocating for limitations on capitalism's reach is often seen as anti-capitalist, even if similar ideas were once considered mainstream. 43:46 🌐 Tyrannies may be terrible, but not all tyrannies are equal, and the desire to eliminate any tyranny can lead to unintended consequences, as seen in interventions like Libya and Afghanistan. 46:43 📜 Ethical dilemmas exist where tragic choices must be made, and they may persist in human society. 48:50 💭 Human frailties and conflicts will endure, even in societies with abundance. 52:12 🌐 The view that structures of power can eliminate tragic choices differs between left-wing and neoliberal thinkers. 55:53 🌍 Certain social and political systems can become trapped in historical cycles of dysfunction. 59:22 💼 Public ownership of utilities may be desirable but impossible for a British government reliant on capital markets. 01:00:02 🇪🇺 Brexit was influenced by an idealized view of Europe and resistance to empirical analysis. 01:03:29 💡 Brexit led to discussions about the merits of political populism and its consequences. 01:05:06 🇪🇺 Europe faces challenges, including conflicts between member states and the rise of far-right nationalist movements. 01:07:12 💰 Leaving the Eurozone is a complex and revolutionary process, with potential economic consequences. 01:08:07 🇺🇸 John Gray discusses the increasing division in the United States, partly driven by issues like abortion and religious composition, impacting politics and gender issues. 01:09:43 📜 When deeply controversial values are turned into constitutional rights, as with abortion in the U.S., it can lead to political capture and conflicts. 01:11:06 ⚖️ The introduction of the Supreme Court in the UK by Blair has led to law becoming a surrogate for politics, resulting in paralysis in decision-making due to endless litigation. 01:20:32 🌍 Hyper-liberal ideology projects extreme Western ideals globally while paradoxically deeming Western societies as fundamentally flawed. 01:25:23 🗳️ The U.S. faces a growing legitimation crisis, with neither party likely to be accepted as legitimate by a significant portion of the population, leading to potential dysfunction in governance. Made with HARPA AI

[@nodgelyobo1]

Wow!...great work!

[@sylviadrummond7293]

Thank you

[@Frip36]

This should be done by channel. He should pay you. How lazy of him.

[@tonymenezes7639]

Thank you. A big help.

[@slothsarecool]

Please no more religion 😅

[@marie-laure.]

His description of the collapse of the USSR, fits the current situation in the west

[@dellwright1407]

not really, at least not if you are old enough to remember the collapse of the USSR

[@ellengran6814]

Russians suffered terrible due to the collapse. Life expectency decreased by 10 %, many starved.

[@barrieroberts75]

​@ellengran6814 but look at the figures for length of living and satisfaction with there government, use the US University Harvad figures

[@aaronogden9900]

A book I read roughly 15 years ago about the USSR in it's final chapters told a story with many similarities to western societies now. There are many differences in terms of circumstances that, like @dellwright1407 says, don't look the same, but many things do. One point I remember from the book was that a Russian person that was, say, 50-70 in the 80s had lived through a post war prosperity and triumphalism that those under 30 had never known so the difference in attitudes towards the status quo between generations was significant. John Gray made a similar observation about westerners under 25 not understanding the enthusiasm and belief in globalist liberalism that people had in the 90s. It has only ever declined for them so they understandably don't buy into it.

[@sichambers9011]

Adam Curtis made a series around this very point.

[@anthonyferris8912]

Let's face it, none of us would have clicked on to watch if the headline was 'the UK will muddle through'. 😂

[@dabrupro]

😢😂 Very true. Now that I think of it "muddle through" is a very good approach. The etymology of those two words is enlightening.

[@Padraigp]

​@@dabruprowhat is the etymology of those two words?

[@dabrupro]

@@Padraigp from etymonline mud (n.) late 14c., mudde, "moist, soft earth," cognate with and probably from Middle Low German mudde, Middle Dutch modde "thick mud," from Proto-Germanic *mud- from PIE *(s)meu-/*mu- [Buck], found in many words denoting "wet" or "dirty" (source also of Greek mydos "damp, moisture," Old Irish muad "cloud," Polish muł "slime," Sanskrit mutra- "urine," Avestan muthra- "excrement, filth"); related to German Schmutz "dirt," which also is used for "mud" in roads, etc., to avoid dreck, which originally meant "excrement." Welsh mwd is from English. The older word is fen. through (prep., adv.) late 14c., metathesis of Old English þurh, from Proto-Germanic *thurx (source also of Old Saxon thuru, Old Frisian thruch, Middle Dutch dore, Dutch door, Old High German thuruh, German durch, Gothic þairh "through"), from PIE root *tere- (2) "to cross over, pass through, overcome."

[@SW-fy8pq]

Correct me if I am wrong. I find the politicians in the UK are working hard towards the interest of the US alone, not the people in the country.

[@speckbacon9881]

*work towards their own interests which happen to align with neo liberal interests which happen to be the interests of the US

[@dglenday8705]

Perhaps the UK and US are both controlled by elites pushing an elitist agenda in the guise of neoliberalism so that they can crush all egalitarianism and other forms of resistance to their corporate tyranny across the globe? Two hearts that beat as one.... three if you include Israel..... the only question is "which is the tail and which is the dog"? The Corporation of The City of London or the US Chamber of Commerce?

[@jacquelinepayne2012]

I remember growing up in New Zealand in the 60s and 70s. It was a social democracy with most essential services run by the government and were freely available to the public although imported consumer goods were limited. We apparently enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world although modest lifestyles were the norm and earnings were taxed according to income. There was about 1 murder a year for a population of 3 million and no one locked their doors or cars or worked on the weekends. Then in the 80s people wanted to be like America and the corporate culture gradually took over with more consumerism and more inequality as national assets were sold off to private ownership. Poverty, crime and homelessness are now the main concerns mentioned at every election.

[@themsmloveswar3985]

Corporatism hit the USA first. New Zealand ended up getting it also. NZ is now a Ponzi economy. The entire system is about Asset Bubble maintenance. As the interview indicated, the actual material composition of the infrastructure is degrading. Profit, corporate income streaming and stealth taxes have become the priority. The growth delusion, running society for GDP statistics, is rampant.

[@kimnabi3988]

NZ was fantastic but now they’re waiting for their Trump so they can swing right wing and follow money…hopefully without religion

[@W_Bin]

@@themsmloveswar3985 That's pretty funny. Suggest you check NZ's ratings on the world indexes before you make up bullshit.

[@W_Bin]

"Poverty, crime and homelessness are now the main concerns mentioned at every election" That's because New Zealand has a directly elected parliament, with MMP and where minorities are represented, and we tell them what we want. There is no poverty in New Zealand. There is social welfare benefits and universal accommodation supplement and family subsidies. What you hear is demands for more fairness. New Zealand ranks top in the world transparency index, and near the top in all social supports such as health etc. We also rank near top in prosperity and freedoms. Higher than UK in prosperity and all social services and freedoms. Lower than UK in crime. Maybe you should stop getting your info from social media and ads, and start looking at the stats.

[@hamidhamidi3134]

The standards of living in the world in the 60s weren't so high anyway. 😅

[@stevekirkby6570]

Wonderful to hear open discussion that is not sensationalist, but thought provoking. Thank you both.

[@chrisbishop1534]

Hi, i was born in 1952 and can remember that things got better until the 90's and then started to go downhill.There were loads of manufacturing jobs untill Thatcher came and then they dissapeared.Globalisation destroyed the uk.

[@ajs41]

Thatcher was the 80s, yet you say things were getting better until the 90s.

[@HelenA-fd8vl]

What a disaster Tony Blair was for this country. And yet his headmaster said he was one of the brightest boys he had come across. A paradox, indeed.

[@joefrancis2406]

Novara is able to engage with others in a way that is completely alien to large swathes of the media ecosystem. No other platform has conversations where opposing ideas are not only expressed openly and clearly, but the participants can grow and perfect their critiques through the conversation. Great work Aaron.

[@jameslave98]

Yeah the dissident right doea

[@benfisher1376]

You think the current left listens to opposing views??😂😂

[@PazLeBon]

there are many and always have been. they just dont get the attention that clickbait gets tho

[@alana8863]

@@benfisher1376 Novara and its viewers are part of the current Left. Almost all on here have expressed approval about this vid. Not quite as funny as you thought?

[@sidsuspicious]

@@benfisher1376 Trying to put your evidently biased words in others mouths, two question marks & oh dear... Laughing emojis. A real Fisher Price thinker you are.

[@BogushCh]

The speaker's brilliantly relevant. Much social awareness is dependent upon a reliable, long-term memory. I remember how stable life was in the 1960s in Britain, and how quickly it feel apart during the course of the '70s and rise of rabid Thatcherism. It's in the context of common loss of memory, above all regarding the vital necessity to control the forces of capitalism, that academia has so hopelessly failed in the West; take, e.g., Francis Fukuyama blindly celebrating the West's victory of the East, utterly senseless to what it would mean for US Americans within a mere three decades.

[@adrianhaynes5451]

This is why Novara is so incredibly valuable. A touchstone for sanity/reality.

[@peterwait641]

Privatization has led to tax evasion and increasing the gap between the rich and working class. The housing benefit bill is over 23 billion which shows failure of selling council houses to stop workers striking !

[@nbmoleminer5051]

Selling the majority of good council houses was a major mistake.

[@First_Principals]

Land value tax replacing income tax and council tax would solve lots of problems in the UK.

[@christinaedwards5084]

Half of our social housing is occupied by foreigners.

[@lewis9159]

A really fascinating discussion, and a breath of fresh air from the kind of myopic, black-and-white discussions that are dominant on social media and mainstream media.

[@idw9159]

A deep and highly insightful political and socio-economic analysis with disturbing conclusions. Most are blind to the various truths explored in this discussion and if forced to consider them, would even then dispute that they are truths. Thank you both. I feel enlightened by watching, if not exactly encouraged...

[@andrewcliffe4753]

Britain is the perfect model of what not to do since the 50s

[@shandovarda5609]

Real good to hear a historian talking philosophy and politics...feel history is a vital ingredient in making new ways forward

[@jr1833]

he's a political philosopher not a historian. while he dips into the history of ideas, it is important to note that his approach of analysis is unlike that of trained academic historians of ideas or intellectual historians.

[@shandovarda5609]

@@jr1833 thanks for the clarification...appreciated. I guess what i was trying to get at was it felt informative and valuable to hear political ideas and philosophy in their historical context that included their outcomes. A refreshing overview compared to the usual ding dong and also I felt it pointed to the value of including history in the mix. It puts all points of view into a practical context rather than surfing waves of emotion. The whole point about politics is that it needs to work... so looking at what has and hasnt worked can mebbe shorten the odds?

[@MartianTom]

Ignorance of history is why we never learn the lessons of it.

[@sharonjones2400]

I don't know why we write history books... We don't read or heed them. If we did, we would see the patterns that repeat themselves time and time again...and do something about it

[@pseudonayme7717]

@@shandovarda5609 I quite agree. I have to recommend the Johnathon Sumption interview on another channel if you enjoyed this, it's also excellent. I watched it last night and was enthralled, could listen to that guy for hours. Then this turns up too, happy days 😎

[@danielopdenakker3010]

Yes free Assange. No corrupt institution has the right to keep him in captivity

[@ricksmith7232]

People don’t have a “right” to murdering an innocent child

[@dianawitty9628]

That’s because you think it’s a child…it will grow in to a child, but only after many stages of development…

[@petermay9370]

John Gray's speeches are a masterclass in influence. He talks slowly, with a sureness that commands attention, and his pauses feel almost theatrical. His intense gaze and those enthralling stories are polished to perfection. It's quite the performance.

[@nop7586]

Totally, he's got that persuasive edge. But you've got to wonder, what's the real play behind that performance?

[@lol-vm3ow]

He's just another articulate pseudo-political hack. No better than Jordan Peterson

[@mrwilliamsingleton]

Thanks chatbot AI

[@vanCaldenborgh]

@@nop7586 Well, it is the typical business model of a philosopher.

[@PazLeBon]

Even as recently as the 60's people still believed they had the power of the people to change things. Nowadays we dont even pretend we have any say in our futures, its ALL about money and governments allowed that money to be put in the hands of a few

[@john-danson3113]

John Gray is a wonderful philosopher and political historian, with a great gift for predictive analytical interpretation. A fabulous episode, which I've watched four times.

[@paulcahill5976]

A couple of unexpected lightbulb moments. Simple yet fundamental points made throughout. Excellent;

[@Mike-vh3bd]

I admired the interviewer's tolerance for being constantly interrupted. ;)

[@Valehass]

If he can't admit even that the Soviet Union largely collapsed because of its staggeringly bad economic policies and blames it on "ultra nationalists" he's not worth five minutes of your time. Just stop to think about that statement for more than a second. The largest Communist nation collapsed not because of its own mistakes but because of the right. It's the same lies told again and again by the left. Never admit they made the bed they're lying in, never admit their policies are what led to disaster. Never EVER take responsibility.

[@januarysson5633]

I can’t help thinking that John Gray comes right up to the water’s edge then loses the plot because of unfounded fears about populism. He may have a lot of brilliant things to say but then withdraws for fear of what his intellectual equals might think.

[@leojmullins]

John Gray's type of thinking is part of the problem, not the solution. No civilisation can be developed or maintained in the absence of a virtuous citizenry

[@carlosnunes3701]

I grew up believing England was organised, wealthy and just. Country. After working 5 years there, I have realised that is something. I'm afraid that's not right with the British as they can't afford education, and the universities are full of foreigners. The British like to control and policing, but without knowledge, it is difficult.

[@stevo728822]

I watched a video of life in England in 1986 made by America's PBS. It showed the wealthy aristocracy and the unemployed of Liverpool and Newcastle. What it revealed was that the living standards of the poor had dramatically risen from 1886, a hundred years ago, whilst the lifestyles of the aristocracy had largely remained the same.

[@celiacresswell6909]

You could still make that argument today, but the direction of travel is less promising now….

[@SmithMrCorona]

Is this an excuse for the rich? It's sounds like you're being an apologist. "Hey, the rich are ok, but look at the poor! THEY HAVE SMART PHONES! Surely, they can't complain about anything, and we can give the billionaires more tax breaks!"

[@jayjaydubful]

​@@SmithMrCoronathat's quite a leap you've made there

[@SmithMrCorona]

@@jayjaydubful Not from my reading of the comment, no. The MSM has done a superb job making regular, working class people think that the rich deserve so much, and the rest of us should be grateful to eat shit.

[@vmoses1979]

What's missing from the OP is that the poor's improved material existence is largely based on encumbering them with debt. Each and everyone of the poor and middle class is burdened by debt owed to the wealthy aristocrats forcing them to work until death. It's a hoodwinking piece of propaganda to keep the masses from looking at the wealthy.

[@rodthesodful]

The railways were private industries from their start. The owners asked for the system to be brought into public ownership because they could not afford to run them. This was overcome by bringing the track into public ownership and leaving the trains in private hands. But this too failed because maintaining the trains was so expensive. So the government took that into public ownership. What remains in private hands is the collection of the fare money. But this can only continue as the ticket prices rise. This then reduces the number of passengers buying the tickets the private sector sell. The government solution was to give the private sector loads of money to collect this diminishing cash. It is pathetic and wholly ridiculous.

[@theserendipityjourney]

One of the best interviews this year! That John has been proved correct on numerous political situations over the years, shows just how wise and clear thinking he is. i watched this first thing this morning and have just watched it a second time. I doubt mainstream television will ever be this good.

[@sebastienloyer9471]

😂 MSM Media are dead

[@bbbf09]

He wasn't right on brexit was he? He predicted great things for UK post 2016 and imminent disintegration of EU. Didn't happen. Very likely won't happen. Just another right wing self serving nihilist - predicts doom for liberal society and then he and his other elitist mates do their level best to make it happen - not without some success.

[@00U751D3RR]

@@sebastienloyer9471 I wish it is. But in a way it can't be dead until it still streams to masses. Unless you call these masses zombies :o)

[@TheRealFamespear]

This is the end again. “There is the moral of all human tales; ‘Tis but the same rehearsal of the past, First Freedom, and then Glory - when that fails: Wealth - Vice - Corruption, - Barbarism at last.” ~ Lord Byron

[@Iguazu65]

Excellent discourse. Very worthwhile and full of insights that put a novel context to what is happening in the U.K. today. Strong links to history.

[@shanejones578]

All the west suffers from its own arrogance…

[@shanejones578]

Not sure what it’s like across the Atlantic for you, but we’re not far from maos china here. We are crumbling in real time, I estimate we’re at 88’-89’ Russian state…

[@philltaylor8442]

The loonaticks have taken over the asylums of the western Emassfear?.

[@EamonCoyle]

I was somewhat disappointed when that ended. I could have listened to John Gray for hours, proper sense and understanding !!

[@belverticale]

Superb...nice to see John out and about. I used to find some of his views annoying but as I've got older and as the world stumbles down an ever darker path in the name of so-called centrism/liberalism under the awful yoke of laissez-faire capitalism and military industrial misadventure I've come to see him as one of the wisest voices out there in an often ahistoric commentariat wilderness. Cheers Aaron.

[@OtherSideAus]

Lots of people quite like laissez faire capitalism and liberalism and rightly are skeptical of government or the state’s ability to bring about better outcomes. That said, I agree with you about the value of this discussion, if not your spin on it.

[@seans6059]

@@OtherSideAus the skepticism you speak of has been formented consciously in the capitalist-liberal political economy. It is propagated through a network of think tanks and has grown in power with the death of journalism, which has enabled the promoters of this idea to construct an environment of neoliberal realism despite evidence to the contrary. People need to wake up to the fact that many of the contemporary failures of government are caused by a conscious decision where corrupt lawmakers abdicated their duties in service of capital. You are engaging in the specific type of Presentism that Gray skewers throughout the video.

[@Epistemophilos]

Honestly curious - where do you see laissez-faire capitalism today?

[@TimothyCHenderson]

@@Epistemophilos True laissez-faire capitalism is impossible, even if the most capitalistic leaders had power, they would still wish for some levels of regulation and control that benefits them (as per human nature), therefore we're parsing out comparisons with what we have now with what came before. the UK is a great example of privatized utilities (water, power, rail) including the Royal Postal service along with the steady decline of union memberships. London is one of the money laundering capitols of the developed world due to lax incorporation laws, an overall preference for business, and an underfunded public sector that's supposed to enforce money laundering regulations. Free trade blocks and agreements that give companies the ability to move their operations wherever they want (this is starting to change). Corporate consolidation is another sign as there's little to no interest in trust busting or preventing monopoly inducing mergers with a few exceptions. The tech industry is pretty much dependent on Blitz scaling as it's business model with the only end goal option being a monopoly. The proliferation of scam cultures within tech, Bitcoin, NFT's and the inability or lack of will for regulators to step in. This is what 50 years of neo-liberal economic policy will get you.

[@Rhgeyer278]

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[@alexdetrojan4534]

Pardon my ignorance, but I had never heard of John Gray until this video. What an outstanding mind this gentleman has. I will have to look into his books. Also this is the first time I've heard of your channel, and I must say I'm impressed. Great format and content. 👍

[@BanjoPixelSnack]

May I suggest starting with Straw Dogs.

[@alexdetrojan4534]

@@BanjoPixelSnack thanks.

[@mrrcassidy]

Can't think why Ash sarkar didn't conduct this interview.

[@alexdavis1541]

Gray seems to believe that ultimately power in the west still rests with the political classes. Therefore it matters which politicians are in control, and it matters what decisions they make. As far back as the 1940S James Burnham was pointing out that this was no longer the case. While politicians are not entirely insignificant as power brokers, they are certainly not the only class of people engaged in the process of managing power. Not by a long way. This was partly acknowledged in the discussion around the way modern political leaders tend to be hamstrung by process, regulation and legal challenges. I doubt that the west has any chance of recovery unless there is a broader recognition of the true nature of the powers that rule it.

[@DaSkonk]

This, couldn't agree more. Until the nexus of corporate, tech, aristocratic and financial powers etc., pulling the strings, from behind the scenes, are unmasked and acknowledged, as the real "rulers" - then nothing will change. There has to be a realisation of what the actual problem is, before any real, lasting change can or will be enacted - otherwise, it's just deckchairs on the Titanic.

[@nbmoleminer5051]

Agreed the everyone with sense has had enough the ruling class.

[@profe3330]

I agree. He seems to be very good in certain areas (the functions of "hyper-Liberalism," for example) but the entire spiel feels scattered and generally lacking in depth and focus. I'm doggedly listening to the end, but I've pretty much lost hope at this point.

[@john-danson3113]

In the West, I would agree with you to a greater degree, given the investment in politics by by the emissaries of the seven capital owners, governments are relatively impotent. Gray's world view is on the one hand, a great torch light on the microcosm of political movements, but Gray ignores the hidden hand of financial power which is extra-political. It is that hand which is truly responsible for everyday politics. Having worked behind the scenes, it's very interesting to see wealth creation as a single goal, without rules. Governments on the other hand, are ham strung by an ever increasing bureaucracy and disparate public requirements. Government officials are expected to provide evidence of gains within a 4-5 year window, to which their only response is to create even more bureaucracy. Government, like legacy media is a relic at this point. Gray is definitely food for thought, if only 99% empirically flawed, it's still a fascinating take on the failure of globalism.

[@gautamanyerere3294]

Truly enjoying your content consistently here in Zambia

[@AudioPervert1]

Of the many things he cites and perceives, one thing strikes out the most. How people in the western world, in EU and North Am have lost their "productive role" in society. The system itself has wiped out that potential for now. Also most of mainstream economics is nonsense, as it remains totally divorced from nature and biophysical limits.

[@dsm577]

Reading Straw Dogs when I was 22 changed my life. John Gray is a phenomenal thinker and writer

[@geoffroberts1131]

Wow i realise how little I know listening to these 2. Mind you i console myself by acknowledging I have the sense to listen to them. 😂

[@sashatulips4631]

Great timing getting John Gray on and inviting us all to ponder on where all of this is going.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

There won't be time to wonder, if the Antarctic sea ice melt of ~2million sqkm causes an expected 0.71 Watt per sq metre heating of the planet equivalent to an Arctic blue ocean event. We're told the melting is a once in 7.5 million year event caused by anthropogenic climate heating. John Gray is interesting, but in the face of the climate crisis sadly irrelevant.

[@donaldwebb]

He has a new book out, which is quite good

[@joelleonard7766]

South Africa should be a case study for how quickly democracies can be destabilised. The West is unfortunately heading towards the route that South Africa has gone down... From the time President Thabo Mbeki (2006/2007) was on his way out, politicians were already using controversial societal problems and divides (Race, Land, Reparations, Poverty) to overwhelm and disrupt our High Court, which has just become a longstanding battleground for politics instead of a court where any new laws and rights that would aid the people have come about. We have had to protest, burn buildings and roads to actually get the ruling party and parliament to make any type of agreements with some laws, but the problems still remain. As no new radical laws have been able to be sorted out, these societal problems have only compounded. The United States has started the process with Trump (2016), and now its beginning to bear fruit, problems are going to compound in the States instead of being rectified (The border problem with Mexico for example). Once problems compound and become extreme, the government and parliament then will take more drastic measures, and in turn become more autocratic. South Africa is slowly en route towards an autocracy. The West is slowly heading there too.

[@bloggalot4718]

Our politicians give away billions of pounds each year. We are over two trillion pounds in debt.

[@davidhamilton6363]

As woodie Guthrie's says "some men rob you with a six gun and some with a fountain pen"

[@bobbysbits2575]

Loved this interview. Never heard of John Gray before, but won't forget him now. Hearing him thank Aaron for testing him and giving him food for thought at the end was a testament to Novara's cumulative credentials in this genre of the information space.

[@Frip36]

On the downside. Gray has a bad habit of interrupting, and doing so LOUDLY.

[@bobbysbits2575]

@@Frip36 Haha I didn't notice, although think I'm still recalibrating after a recent a Peter Hitchens interview.

[@electron8262]

Don't watch the Slavoj Žižek interview

[@SaladBowlz]

Man, that was a fucking banger of a conversation. y'all really have a really good catalog of interviews and I'm really impressed by Aaron's ability to maintain an extremely compelling conversation with some of these people. He seems really well-read. Thanks. Looking forward to more.

[@BalefulBunyip]

Proportional representation has been practiced by Australia since 1949 and has resulted in parliaments with overwhelming majorities and slender majorities but never a hung parliament. In fact the last parliament with a single seat majority was one of the most productive.

[@gee3883]

Thanks Aaron for an amazing interview with John, his insights run deep.

[@Wraithing]

How wonderful. Thank you for another brilliant guest and great interview, Aaron. Very much appreciated.

[@donaldcarpenter5328]

What I am SAYING is MANY of have KNOWN Western "Democracy" was being DISMANTLED at an alarming rate but there were TOO FEW of us and NOBODY would LISTEN to US!!!! I APPRECIATE your WORK!!!!

[@johnchristie162]

Brilliant discussion which never happens on mainstream media so a very big thanks to both of you.

[@markrowe5992]

Great guest . . . John Gray. My Cats like him too.

[@vKarl71]

One thing medieval European "peasants" had (despite the many horrors perpetrated by the aristocracy) that today's wage slaves don't have is significant amounts of time off from their work, especially in winter after the harvest was done. There seems to have been at least some sense of noblesse oblige at that time. Today the aristocracy will take every second and every penny they can get away with from the workers. Social media/digital communication & surveillance has wildly enabled this criminal attitude. It's gone so far that it looks to me like it's approaching genocide.

[@themsmloveswar3985]

The aristocracy spent most of the period between 1300 and 1475 murdering each other, in vendettas. One peasant priority was to keep out of the way of the madness.

[@ruthymccabe]

The deal with feudalism was that in return for being a slave, or as good as, the aristocracy kept the peasantry fed and protected. I don't think the new aristocracy are keeping up their end of the bargain.

[@vKarl71]

@@themsmloveswar3985 That's funny, but I'm sure it's true. War and plunder seem to have been the hobby of the ruling classes for millenia.

[@vKarl71]

@@ruthymccabe Exactly!

[@Sol66459]

Truly wonderful conversation. Thank you both.

[@mattanderson6672]

Thank you so much for such a brilliant guest!! I really enjoyed that

[@bazs7669]

Great conversation. Always love hearing John Gray

[@ianmackillop1774]

All we have to do to facilitate renationalisation of the railways is to withhold subsidy from the rail operators. They'd beg us to do it.

[@ItalyBound]

Pure insightful, brilliance and prophetic.

[@michaellorenson2997]

Excellent, thanks. As an American, I would argue that the U.S. political and economic 'setup' are not exactly as Mr. Gray describes, but close enough that I'm sure he and I could reach consensus through a discussion of details. They _are_ potentially critical details having profound consequences, though, both for America and for the rest of the world. Broadly, I agree that the U.S. is likely to withdraw much of the international military and economic support everyone has become accustomed to in the post-WWII era. Most people - wherever they are - have no idea what a big deal that will be, so they should be careful what they wish for. That aside, I only wish this discussion could have have been expanded and lengthened to more fully cover many things that were touched upon but not explored. Outstanding. L/S

[@grumpylimey4539]

Curiously, as a naturalized American citizen of British origin, my inclination in the country of my adoption, and the birth of my children is distinctly parochial and isolationist. Given my affinity overseas I can only imagine the depth of feeling amongst those with no such ties.

[@Porkleaker]

@@grumpylimey4539 As a Canadian Bastard, I actually have some interesting insight on this topic, but I'm too high right now.

[@januarysson5633]

@@PorkleakerI hope you will share it with us when you come down from your cloud.

[@foljs5858]

" Broadly, I agree that the U.S. is likely to withdraw much of the international military and economic support everyone has become accustomed to in the post-WWII era. Most people - wherever they are - have no idea what a big deal that will be, so they should be careful what they wish for. " That "support" comes with so many string attached, and is the equivalent to the proverbial giving mirrors and toys to Native Americans in exchange for their land. It sucks the recipient countries dry, and makes them into client states, as for the money, they go to local elites anyway.

[@paul1979uk2000]

That would probably be a good thing but I don't see it happening any time soon because the US has a lot of vested interest with its military being so international, basically, the US as a power would become weaker if it pulled back in those areas, both politically and economically. On the other side of the coin, it would put more pressure on EU countries to get their act together and combine their resources into a single military, which even at current spending would be far more powerful than what they have now, especially once you reduce the waste and duplications that go on. Personally, it shouldn't really be one country or regional power being world police anyway, maybe that role should be shared out among the democracies around the world with a new organisation, after all, pooling the resources of the EU, US, Japan and many others would have a lot of benefits for them all, as well as security. As for the EU and it's members, the reason they don't step up is because they don't need too, but they are more than capable of doing so, they've got the economy, the skill sets and tech to do it, it's weather they have the vision to do it, but if the US were to pull back, there would be far more incentive in the EU countries banding together a lot more in military and foreign policy matters, the irony is, the EU organisation it's self probably wants the US to pull back in military matters, because that would be all it needs as ammunition to pull the EU countries together in create a single military, but for now, too many countries use NATO and the US as an excuse for the EU to not have a powerful military. But as I've said before, it's unlikely the US will pull back anytime soon and mainly because the US fears a rising China, pulling back would be handing it on a plate to the likes of China unless the EU steps up to the game.

[@Gph0367]

Another great interview Aaron!! Thank you 👍

[@robertwinslade3104]

Great interview! Downstream is always worth tuning in to! Wish we could get a couple of episodes per week!

[@ianmaclean2214]

Thank you, that was great interview and discussion, blimey!

[@mengshun]

Outstanding interview. Great job. Aaron Bastani. John Gray - what a find and breath of fresh air. Get this guy on everywhere and get national advisers to listen hard to him. Yes, pipe dream but we are running out of time to sail a better course. Far more coherent than me - at least I haven't been losing my mind having the same general thoughts and takeaways from reading a lot history and thinking I've got the lessons all wrong.

[@tomiddison5552]

A marvelous discussion. Thankyou.

[@jeffheller642]

Many intellectuals and others are wont to speculate about the future. With Professor Grey I get the feeling he's been there and has returned to report on what he saw.

[@Cotswolds1913]

The idea that there were not homeless beggars with “no social position” in feudal times, is a complete nonsense. Once I hear crap like that I immediately get skeptical of anything the person wants to convey.

[@guzy1971]

Such a pleasure to watch a respectful debate between 2 gentlemen

[@davedogge2280]

You had me at 'he's pissed off just about everyone'.

[@TheNicoliyah]

😂😂😂😂

[@sichambers9011]

Diagnosis of centrism/liberalism is spot on.

[@seanlander9321]

Time for Treasury to call in the French loans. France hasn’t paid a penny on its loans from Britain since 1931; the debt is now over a trillion and it doubles every 14.5 years.

[@cazzi1929]

Watching this back again. One of the most interesting interviews yet.

[@davidrowewtl6811]

John Gray, a blast from the past! Great interview . So much of this discussion I would have argued with in my youth but now understand as deep insights worth investigating further. Thank you Aaron.

[@FudgeMonkeySmurf]

That was fascinating. Great conversation and extraordinarily thought provoking.👍

[@patrick5729]

This is one of the most fascinating men in the world.

[@AnandMagic9]

John Gray is a genuinely principled conservative voice. What Gray recognizes is that there's nothing conservative about endless economic growth at the expense of our social fabric and natural environment.

[@michaelburke-ig8zl]

I remember Margret Thatcher saying Britain is she and the conservatives will take Britain back to the Victorian times. Looks like she was right.

[@hubertgrealish]

So grateful to Novara's work 'this side of the pond' in podcasting and the fascinating truths we have to grapple with. In a world of noise this is so meaningful. thank you.

[@iwouldprefernotto4381]

Fascinating interview! Gray is such an interesting thinker and I really appreciated Aaron’s interventions and pushing back in places.

[@jamesmiller3548]

I noticed in the opening comments, they mentioned everything from religion to feudalism coming back. He forgot to mention the most obvious, retread reemerging, that being fascism.

[@sva9550]

Darn. I found myself to be a group-thinking Marxist. Now I have to rebuild my shattered world view from the rubble. Thanks for a brilliant discussion. Vicki (Australia)

[@thethinredline4714]

individualism is a dead end

[@neilcreamer8207]

This was very interesting. I'd never heard of John Gray before. Along with Yanis Varoufakis, he's the second intellectual I've heard talking about the return of feudalism.

[@neilcreamer8207]

@@arisnotheles I believe you. Unfortunately, I wasn't reading either of those at the time so it's all news to me.

[@a.accioly]

Add Joel Kotkin to the mix.

[@AliBhai-sl8gc]

researchers consistently fail to address the magnitude of this issue. People ultimately need love and validation. When a man doesn't matter to a woman, when she doesn't gaze at him with a loving smile, tell him she wants him/needs him, that he matters to her. A lot of guys have never had that. This will cause disillusionment/isolation/soul sadness and mental health issues in men. No amount of material things, por* will be able to replace that. The problem in the west is 2 fold. Incels can't get a woman and the ones that do get one, end up in divorce/breaking up or being cheated on and losing more than the lady. So they swear off relationships and end up lonely all the same. (Mgtow) Both have the effect of creating lonely, angry, atomised ppl and broken society with plummeting birth rates. And can spell the end of that society. What are we seeing in the west now? Falling sperm counts, falling testosterone levels, births, marriage, anomie and a rapidly ageing society, with catastrophic debt levels. White ppl used to have close family bonds but now they no longer keep ties with family and send old ppl to homes. Jobs for life are a thing of the past, from where they used to form friends. White ppl lost their matchmaking culture and used to marry form within their own tried and tested social circle. With all that now gone, internet dating and cold approaching/PUA random women that u know nothing about is the way. Which can be dehumanising and toxic. Peace

[@Sethae]

@@AliBhai-sl8gc 30% of all the men ever in existence have had offspring. Men are there to be selected. Women are there to select, by their own will or by force. It's never been as easy to be selected as today, to be in the 30% of the men. Because in a historical perspective, none of us really are men anymore. Most of just play the part without any real substance. I have a 20 year old girlfriend atm. and it's kind of wild how hard it is for the women in her age group to find a man. Like, not a boy, not an effeminate male girlfriend. A man. And of course, most of her age group of women are pretty impossible themselves.

[@zarni000]

Yanus is a con artist. Always the self promoter. He was part of the leadership that created the problem. Now he is the supposed savior

[@parhhesia]

Signs of a true thinker on display here: listens intently, addresses counter-arguments with respect and skill, succinctly explains how he reached his conclusions, and acknowledges how his views have changed over time.

[@dhj1182]

Excellent content, very thought-provoking and a treat to listen to. More like this, please.

[@brockit79]

So glad I happened upon this interview this evening - very interesting.

[@petersipos4728]

One should not underestimate what lots of angry young men and women can do. History must be studied!

[@stegemme]

how's your ego doing Aaron, when somebody like John Gray says they've learnt something from your interaction , that is praise indeed. Great conversation, so much food for thought. I thank you both.

[@itsalwaystwentyfivetosixo.3805]

FUCKING YES! Love John Gray, the grumpiest Buddhist of ever. Very interested to see him rubbing up against Aaron's Fully Automated Luxury Communism. "never gonna happen, Aaron, people are just shit". :)

[@orwellknew9112]

I was consulting to the local government here and it gave me the opportunity to see information that I would take otherwise look for. For example, the life expectancy of the homeless was something I had never thought about before. But a paper was shared with me that showed their life expectancy was only about 10 years from the date they became homeless. The other bit of information that I found surprising was the cost to the City was on average over $100,000 per year per homeless resident. That cost was primarily for ambulance and police services just to deal with these people’s ongoing issues. Of course a lot of them are mentally ill and at one time would have been institutionalized. Now, for the most part, the institutions have been cut back so much that only the severely impaired are inmates. I think that part of the de-institutionalization business case was cost savings, but it looks like the costs weren’t saved as much as just moved to the City taxpayers.

[@Marcara081]

50 years ago we had a lot of these problems solved. Then the government trashed our solutions and then made the problems ten times worse. Otherwise we'd start shrinking the size and scope of government. That's really all there is to it. Anything else they tell us is a lie.

[@faithsrvtrip8768]

Exactly. Institutions were closed rather than have staff receive additional training. Stronger oversight could have worked to correct problems inside the institution to get them up to modern standards. Now, in the US, the only way to be placed in an mental institution is to commit murder and be declared insane then the person is committed to a forensic psychiatric facility inside a prison facility. Other than that, the US treats the homeless and mentally ill / addicted as less than dogs. It's horrible.

[@spankeyfish]

Closing institutions also allowed Tory donors and chums to buy the land they were on at rock bottom prices. High Royds, an old psychiatric hospital near Leeds, has been turned into an upmarket housing estate.

[@huwtindall7096]

100% it's a false economy cutting care services and mental health. Just ends costing more elsewhere. Same for medically supervised injecting centres - reduction in overdose, crime, hospital admissions etc plus getting more people into genuine rehab far outweights the cost of the centre, some clean needles, and staff.

[@phoenixkali]

In the nineties our local institution was closed down and inmates were released into care-in-the-community hoomes, needing staff 1-1 or 2-1 ratio during daytime and 2 staff overnight. The cost for each resident was between 30-60k per year per resident for upkeep of housekeeping, staff, ongoing courses for staff education and training, and occupational therapy for the residents. I know this because I was staff then. Today that would amount to 150-200k per resident per year so 100k per homeless person is a cheaper option surprisingly!