We Need "Bad" LGBTQIA Representation | A Movie Video Essay

[@justinn8541akaDrPokemon]

We need to recognize that anyone can be a horrible person. Anyone can have faults.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

The issue is that Gay and Trans representation are not at the same point right now. Gays are normalized enough that we cna have Gay villains without it reinforcing any stereotypes that much. But as a Trans-Feminine persons I'm still very traumatized by the tope of a Serial Killer turning out to be a Trans Woman trope. Cis-Het character do not morally ambiguous to be considering interesting or not boring.

[@Grf1556]

@@Kuudere-Kun It was really good that I watched Silence of the Lambs for the first time a few days before Nimona came out. While SotL was really good, It crushed me when Nimona said "Why am I always the monster?" and how media essentially demonized the LGBTQA community but especially the trans community regularly prior to a decade ago.

[@daniellevinson6975]

While *so many* cishet conservatives exhibit nightmarish toxicity, too many members -- let alone counter-heteronormative members -- of the LGBTQ community exhibit their own dysfunctional hatred!!

[@Capt.Steele]

@@Kuudere-Kun the more we coddle people and treat them differently based on their characteristics the worse it will be for everyone. Treating people differently, even preferentially so, just creates resentment and hatred. We need to throw away the Kitty gloves and all understand that people are people, nothing else needs to matter.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

@@Capt.Steele That's really not far off from the argument a Conservative would make.

[@genemelendez368]

This is why I love Eda from The Owl House. Yes, her relationship with Raine is cute and wholesome, but Eda herself is just this fun, chaotic con artist that hates authority. It’s fitting that she hooked up with Grunkle Stan at one point and then stole his money

[@legendofdymin]

⁠@Rotom0479 You seem to be fishing for rage, but I’ll bite. Please explain why the best show Disney has put out in ages “was crap.” Cite examples from all three seasons, and don’t just complain that it parodies certain fantasy themes.

[@Indigo_Splash]

@@legendofdymin this person has had the same thing to say about all cartoons with LGBTQ+ rep, really puts into perspective how little they actually care about show quality and are just mad that the world is more inclusive outside of their little bubble.

[@milenabazejewska643]

​​​​@Rotom0479 pacing in owl house seems bad just cuz disney canceled it and they had to rush 2 and 3 seasons

[@anisa6658]

​@Rotom0479if you're so against the idea of gay people being in cartoons why are you even here? do you think you're going to convince anyone to think like you? know your audience, the one you're looking for isn't here

[@anisa6658]

@Rotom0479 or you could spend your time more productively

[@ryuspiritvtuber]

Do we want good gay rep? Yes Do we want gay coded/full blown gay villains? Yes Why can’t we have have both?

[@kap1618]

Because the lgbt+ community has a bad habit of turning on their own, enabling homophobia and transphobia against people, they have personal grievances with.

[@DCPTF2]

because when it come to the loud vocal minority of queer voices they don't want that, they see a queer villain as bigotry and "punching down", what the vocal minority wants to see is queer characters beating the crap out of Cis characters because to them it's revenge by proxy for all the suffering they have experienced

[@quarentine_bishyt]

that part

[@melasnexperience]

@@DCPTF2 Bingo.

[@DCPTF2]

​@@melasnexperience wad my other comment really deleted?, seems to be gone

[@BoogTheGoob]

because there is not enough bad gay and trans rep, i am becoming the bad gay and trans rep i want to see in the world. this is my gift to all of you.

[@broskibrunches]

Thank you for your service🙏🙏🙏

[@alexthelion5872]

Thank you boog

[@Mariwend]

Godspeed Boog.

[@Mothsrcool]

THANK YOU POOKIE

[@awkward745]

lmfao

[@PatrickWDunne]

"We need more queer villains" Alfred Hitchcock: I'm doing my part!

[@TryinaD]

Honestly he kinda ate. Probably because he actually was friends w gay ppl?

[@CorwinFound]

"Rope" is a phenomenal movie. The villains are a gay couple. Very explicitly. But their crimes and villainy aren't queer based. They are just two really horrible guys who happen to be gay. It's also technically a master class given by Hitchcock.

[@TryinaD]

@@CorwinFound ikr! It’s so good like that

[@M_M_ODonnell]

@@TryinaD Actually interacting with gay people on a regular basis gave him a pretty strong headstart.

[@slimjim5745]

its funny because a lot of disney villains seem very queer coded

[@Capt.Steele]

The real problem is that so many on both sides don't see these people as people. They see them as representatives, role models or stereotypes. Sexuality is not the defining feature of a person, neither is race nor gender. People are people, and the sooner we all realize that the sooner we'll have true representation.

[@CinnamonGirl0716]

SAY 👏🏿 IT 👏🏿 LOUDER 👏🏿FOR👏🏿THE👏🏿PEOPLE👏🏿IN👏🏿THE👏🏿BACK👏🏿

[@truthseeker9249]

Then they'll be peace on Earth. Not really. But that's what we all wish for.

[@romacechina]

Ken Levine, writer of of Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite had a great quote on creating characters, whether they weere LGBTQ, Jewish or another background. "I think there is a feeling of wanting to see character types rather than characters,” “People ask me, ‘Why don’t you write a ‘positive gay character?’ In the abstract, that’s a very odd request, not because there aren’t positive gay people out there. It’s because nobody is wholly positive or wholly negative. And that’s also not what makes somebody interesting. Being strong and positive is not what makes people interesting. It can be part of what makes somebody interesting, but that to me is creating a one-dimensional character, that’s only recognizable by their strengths, or only recognizable by the fact that they are black, or by the fact that they are Jewish. As a writer, that doesn’t seem like a terrific path to creating interesting characters." Being LGBTQ myself, I fully understand and respect people who just want to see positive representation, that we don't get portrayed for being tragic, on bigotry and touching on parts of life that impact us for various reasons. Because escapism for many is a powerful part of engaging in fiction and wanting to disconnect from real world concerns. Plus the decades of Bury the Gay, being used for nothing but tragedy, Queer baiting and stereotypical portrayal has certainly left I think wariness among a number of viewers/readers that I have felt myself over the years. At the same time, I think there is always room to seeing more nuanced exploration of LGBTQ people, groups, and topics be explored in different ways, of showing more as flawed, villainous or touching on bits that are uncomfortable or controversial as long as its done well, has a point to it, adds to the work, characters overall.

[@xblade149]

Love this

[@Capt.Steele]

It's really is horrifying how we've started taking steps back as a society in the name of progress, treating people differently based on their characteristics (Race, sexuality, gender) rather than the contents of their character. I love creators like this who understand it's not about creating LGBTQ characters, it's about creating human characters.

[@michealthrowaway2122]

​@@Capt.SteeleWhat do you mean? Societies around the world have been like that since history began, it's never gone away. Only in more recent times has "decency" and "etiquette" been employed throughout the common places of human activity. It's never truly gone away, and I don't think it ever will.

[@Naruto85RasenShurike]

The santization of queer content on social media honestly reminds me of how even some members of the LGBTQ+ community end up engaging in gatekeeping respectability politics, openly dismissing & condemning anything that they see as “unacceptable levels of gayness.” Personally, I remember seeing some progressive comic book fans labeling Sina Grace’s ICEMAN run as “an offensive gay stereotype,” even though Grace himself is a gay author and I’ve lost count over how many times I’ve heard that exact SAME argument from LITERAL Comicsgaters!

[@Thed538dhsk]

I disagree with your concept. Just because a black person does black face or a blonde woman pretends to be dumb doesn't mean it's okay. A gay man can still depict an offensive gaymale stereotype. Him being gay doesn't erase his ability to make an offensive stereotype.

[@Naruto85RasenShurike]

@@Thed538dhsk Would you care to explain exactly HOW Grace wrote Iceman as an “offensive gay stereotype?” Because I personally don’t see it and NONE of the people I’ve encountered who have made that argument have ever provided evidence to back it up.

[@xblade149]

​@@Thed538dhskda fuck are you talking about

[@xblade149]

​​@@Thed538dhsk wtf are you talking about?

[@ghosttea3802]

@@Thed538dhskwriting a thing is different from literally doing black face also it does matter since a lot of times those authors are accused of being homophobic to the point were they are forced to openly come out as their sexuality which is not fair for them as people.

[@Kaileighblue]

This might sound like a tangent, but I wish people didn't treat comics like something that needs to be adapted to screen to be important. There's so many great comics made by so many different people that are successful in their own rights that deserve to be considered AS comics. Not just as something that should be a movie/tv show/ cartoon series to be considered good rep.

[@matt0044]

It's... mostly because TV gets more eyes on it when the solution should be a general encouragement for mainstream audiences to read and talk about comic books.

[@leonpgut]

True. I started reading comics about a year ago and some characters and stories, like Kelly Thompson's Black Widow and Donny Cates's Venom, have become my favorite version of those characters by far.

[@deathcrist2000]

I think it's telling that both Tamsyn Muir and Lana Wachowski both imagined hell as a Coffee Shop AU.

[@fluffywolfo3663]

Finally, one of these that doesn’t say horrifying shit about queers of the ‘80s.

[@KariIzumi1]

And doesn't bash women every five seconds either. Hi, James.

[@fluffywolfo3663]

@@KariIzumi1 it’s like this is an anti-Somerton video not in the sense that it’s a takedown, more in the sense of being the opposite of a Somerton video.

[@TonyPepperoni9212]

The Yuri!!! On Ice movie cancellation is the worst thing that has happened to me this year

[@IzadoraKatarina]

same 😭😭

[@TonyPepperoni9212]

@Rotom0479 Only if you hold me while I do 🥺

[@TonyPepperoni9212]

@Rotom0479 I would put a comma after the no, but maybe it's just me...

[@IzadoraKatarina]

@Rotom0479 why do you have to be an asshole about it? why does it bother you that people feel saddened by the loss of a beloved story that touched a lot of hearts and profoundly impacted people's lives? (especially queer people, people experiencing anxiety & depression, autistic people, ...)

[@MinaStone-wv5uy]

@@IzadoraKatarina this is the second video I’ve seen where this person is in the comments and people are just going after them, but all their comments have been deleted. it’s like wow you said “Pay attention to meeeeeee” then dipped lol

[@emilyletoski2106]

I first watched "queer as folk" on Netflix when it was available, in 2014, and I think that was the first time I saw queer media where not every gay character was perfect. I hated Brian so much.

[@moxxibekk]

Saaaaaame.

[@gothic_ace2037]

god i loved that show, every character was flawed and it felt so genuine to real life (i mean it was a drama so some things were stretched but it wasnt to the point of unrealistic expectations)

[@SkyeID]

Brian was awful, but I think he loved Michael, his friend Lindsay, and his baby Gus. He just kinda sucked at showing his love.

[@gothic_ace2037]

@@SkyeID honestly relatable

[@perfect1pineapple]

Since no one else is talking about it, I feel as though Rocky Horror Picture Show deserves a mention. Honestly iconic.

[@Acidfrog475]

We need and want more _good art and bad rep,_ not _good rep and bad art._ I admit that I am someone who likes to watch good people do good things, but I also think that we should have multi-facetted characters of all types, particularly of minorities. Multi-facetted characters, like people, should also have their bad, may I even say ugly, sides.

[@metarij]

i think you are forgetting what "bad representation" is. it doesn't mean the characters are nuanced and have flaws, it means that they're contributing to harmful tropes. The flattening of all sanitized representation of queer rep as "bad rep" is kinda backwards imo. Especially when older shows like Steven Universe who are so often judged as this sanitized show when it is In Fact Not At All

[@Acidfrog475]

@Rotom0479 It’s… wrong for me to basically summarise the video’s thesis?

[@Acidfrog475]

@Rotom0479 Have you considered that myself and many others are perhaps younger than you are? We don’t know each other, that is actually perfectly plausible. And, while I can of course only speak for myself, I quite often rely on others putting certain words to thoughts I perhaps may have had. Especially in English.

[@Acidfrog475]

@Rotom0479 And I am. I just paraphrased the video because I think it’s interesting. And I think my English is perfectly fine. I just don’t think every waking hour and every waking thought in English. I do think in English a lot, but not all the time. That was an incredibly rude thing to say (about a polyglot’s language skills).

[@r.muller8289]

When the years passed and it became clear Mappa wouldn't fullfil it's promise with the Yuri on Ice sequel, I expected to at least follow it's creator and director, Sayo Yamamoto (who directed some episodes of big hits like Death Note and Samurai Champloo, and storyboarded one of the Evangelion movies) for more candid stories. But after YoI, she essentially ceased working altogether in animation after 2017. She gave an interview about the episode with the gay kiss, and turns out she struggled a lot to even keep the kiss on the story at all. Theory between fans is that Mappa ceased giving her work in retaliation for refusing to compromise on the kiss (that the audience doesn't even get to see, it's blocked from view) due to this interview followed by +7 years of inactivity.

[@zainmudassir2964]

Very sad. Hope she makes manga with more creative liberties like how Miyazaki made Nausicaa manga to expand the story and different,more somber ending

[@noahbossier1131]

Agreed. I think she should be making manga

[@kyleellis1825]

Really we need to crowd fund some smaller independent studiosand just make our own stuff.

[@henri191]

Hannibal is pretty much a TV show with LGBT character that is great villain, i think it's the best example

[@animeotaku307]

Also by having an enemies and lovers relationship between him and the protagonist (who is not that good of a person either).

[@Halucygeno]

My favourite gay artist is David Wojnarowicz. He was so passionate and rage-filled, he cussed and openly expressed his disdain for the politicians and religious leaders who enabled the AIDS crisis. And his rawness made sense - he was a broke bum for most of his life, had to hustle from a young age. Listening to him, you get the impression that he's not the nicest guy to be around, but his writing and photography are just so intense, and he was speaking truth. I wish we had characters like that - queer rebel hobos. Not glamorous, not heroic. Mean, neurotic, financially precarious... but passionate and vigilant, attentive to the systems ruling society. Maybe that's also an idealized picture and not realistic, but I hunger for this kind of representation.

[@brittanyg7700]

This is why I love the enemies to lovers trope, especially in fanfiction. I want to see my gays go from toxic hate to true love. I want to see the slow burn. There's something so satisfying about mortal enemies overcoming their hate, setting aside their goals and/or morals for the other person. As much as I love the sweetness, I need some spice, too. Edit: UGH I was so disappointed about the cancelation of Shadow and Bone.

[@memezurdreamz2203]

I really dislike the trope. It feels like pandering...

[@heyyodude8637]

@@memezurdreamz2203Not really. It can done correctly or not

[@brittanyg7700]

@@memezurdreamz2203 Huh, I'll admit I'm thoroughly confused by this viewpoint. Pandering? Really? In the end, any trope could be called pandering, tbh. People don't write enemies to lovers just to please an audience. Granted, some authors DO write to pander to an audience, but isn't solely the enemies to lovers trope. Perhaps you haven't read a true enemies to lovers book. After all, it ain't true love if the couple hasn't tried to off the other. (Said in jest) I write this trope because I love it, not because my readers want something from me. I write for myself. If I don't, I don't write. The love for writing dies. There's more nuance to this trope than I think people realize--there's more nuance to any trope.

[@memezurdreamz2203]

@@brittanyg7700 Right back at you. I find the concept of enemies to lovers completely unrealistic (we're obviously talking about actual enemies here not school rivals or bs like that). What kind of serious love can ever spur out of direct conflict? Friendship is one thing, but love? I don't see it... I mentioned that it feels like pandering, not that it is and that's because it's always forced in some way.

[@brittanyg7700]

@@memezurdreamz2203 Absolutely. The concept itself sounds impossible, but that's exactly the draw of it. If two enemies can overcome whatever is between them, that's a type of impossible possible hope. That's why slow burn is almost always in combination with enemies to lovers. You're not going to have a satisfying end within 50k words. It needs 200k+ or even more to be realistic. Enemies to lovers is a trope and fantasy of hope. In a world where so much is falling apart with such polarizing views, there's something comforting about enemies to lovers, about two opposite extremes (good and evil or white and black thinking) coming together in unified compromise. It's not a trope of simple 'pandering.'

[@leavemealone802]

and no redemption or forgiveness. I want a queer villain doing awful things and still look fabulous and scary doing it. I want to be disgusted! I want to see an abusive relationship between two women, and ACTUALLY BE SHOWN AS A BAD THING! (Looking at you Catradora) We need to talk about abusive women, something society seriously thinks it doesn't exist! and you know what I really REALLY want? I want creators to own up their badies. Like, I want them to show a disfunctional couple, and not sugar couted, or blame the victim, or trying to make one like a uwu baby did nothing wrong since he is gay (Looking at you stolitz. be better)

[@matt0044]

What's wrong with Catradora? Frankly, it was beautiful depiction of a friendship that turned toxic and became stronger for it. Also wasn't that this with Stolas a Pilot thing? Redemption arcs are a thing because, well, it's easy to make a villain as you describe but a real challenge to get them to turn themselves around. And while ambition doesn't replace quality, I will admire the effort when it comes from the soul than the pocket.

[@Pinkywinkykinky]

@@matt0044 kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnS4anyqmqxqfNksi=rlQgfb1f74fuXzpb nah more than a pilot thing

[@CrowTR0bot]

Where would you say Valentino from Hazbin Hotel falls on this spectrum?

[@AC-dk4fp]

Catradora isn't an abusive relationship they're literally enemies. I mean, CatraScorpia is right there.

[@gothic_ace2037]

@@CrowTR0bot Valentino is the perfect example of an evil queer and thats what people are looking for, the scummy side of the community that cant just be flipped on its head with a "everyone can be a good person if they just try" because there are people like valentino who can never and will never change no matter the amount of chances given to them

[@GazingTrandoshan]

Yea I'm noticing a trend where people misconstrue minorities with faults as bad writing like that isn't kinda just wrong in itself. If a white straight guy can be a villain why can't everyone else without it being giga criticized more than the classic

[@vilmublues752]

Steven Universe characters are criticized all the time for being "problematic" too, since they were intentionally made to be very flawed and many have done something bad.

[@SuperEasywalker]

@Rotom0479Not horribly written but certainly some flaw yet is very overhated by everyone.

[@rubyy.7374]

@Rotom0479 I wish I could love anything as much as you hate Steven Universe lol.

[@SuperEasywalker]

@Rotom0479 I think enough people have stated the good, the bad, and the overstated over the years, that ranges from understandable criticism to full blown hate boner, that I really don’t about your opinion at this point. 😜

[@iwazoi]

The Yuri on Ice segment is just so cathartic for me as a long time fan who was waiting for the movie. It’s just devastating to see the iconic IP discarded like garbage when it paved the foundation for their other anime successes. I hope you eventually make a video, and I’ll be looking forward to your other content in the meantime.

[@iwazoi]

@Rotom0479 girl I am 😭😭😭

[@BubblingBrooke]

The sanitization also means you're gonna get just the first 4 letters as well at best (and probably fem). As someone who is aspec, it's harder to even have crumbs of any rep to begin with. Very few even begin to touch it let alone get it correct. Or conflate ace and aro as the same thing when the umbrella is so diverse. (I think Todd from Bojack is like the only notable one some folks would recognize) There's so much room for messy queer stories! Let me have them and with other identities!

[@melasnexperience]

Agreed. Todd is the only ace character on TV that's an adult, who has stories beyond his coming out, and that has stories that have nothing to do with being ace. If I see one more "teenager learns they're ace and then vanishes forever from the show" like we've been getting (and strictly in teen dramas, not any wider genres), I will scream.

[@kyleellis1825]

Heck Jugghead and Sheldon both got rewritten to not be Asexual. We have Asexual erasure the same way we used to have bi erasure in the 90's/00's.

[@SkyeID]

Speaking of the acronym, it would be great to have intersex rep, that doesn't treat the person as a freak, or give incorrect information, or use outdated language.

[@BubblingBrooke]

@@SkyeID Agreed!

[@wordswithdragons9599]

honestly messy queer rep is one of the reasons why I love The Dragon Prince on Netflix. There are rival generals who put aside their differences and learn and grow, even if they still mess up by being less than empathetic (Amaya, who's also deaf, and can sometimes punch first and ask questions later) or confident (Janai, who's grieving and never really wanted to be queen). There are married queens who, along with other characters, go along with a magical organ harvesting plot line but only to save their kingdoms from starvation (was it the RIGHT choice? who knows); there's another married couple between a master blacksmith who initially shuns their daughter for her perceived betrayal, and an assassin who's rigid and uncompromising to his detriment (he kinda killed the MC's dad) but still deserves salvation (his daughter is another main character). Even Soren and Corvus as another mlm couple and how Soren's arc with his morally corrupt family (sort of) continues to progress Most of all I think of Terry (season four onwards main character) who's trans, has a coming out scene and wears a visible binder. He's a loving boyfriend to a main antagonist, Claudia. He's kind hearted and her moral compass, but he still kills a man (and breaks down crying) and can be too accepting of some of the terrible things she's done. He's a great example of how someone can be kind and loving but still accordingly biased and dangerously blase about things he could arguably take a stand about... and he's only 1 of 3, probably 4 depending on how the next season goes, trans / NB characters in the series

[@HorrorGeek9]

If people want a show centered around bad messy gay people I would recommend AMC's Interview With The Vampire. Louis, Lestat, Armand, etc all do some messed up things in the show. Its tragic, toxic and full of drama while giving us prestige TV quality. The show is amazing.

[@HorrorGeek9]

@Rotom0479 It's a good thing I think the books are not good and that changes to it are for the better. The changes are why I gave the show a chance. Show Louis is a much more interesting character than book Louis will ever be.

[@HorrorGeek9]

​@Rotom0479 First off, the books are canonically gay (it was basically only subtext in the first book). Louis in the books is one of the most boring, one-dimensional characters I have read. Even Anne Rice got bored with him, which is why he barely appears until the last few books where he is the "True love" of Lestat even tho Anne Rice at multiple points tried to replace him as the central love interest. Not that any of the later books were decent (if you did not get to the Atlantis book, I salute you). Anne Rice loves being edgy for the sake of being edgy. The show adds depth and agency to the character that just was not there in the books. He plays a more active role in the key events of the first book but with extra steps (His guilt for causing a race riot is the reason why Claudia gets turned in the show. Instead of Lestat just turning her to tie Louis to him in the book. Louis, in the show, is actively the reason why Lestat is alive because he stops Claudia from killing him after the poison; he doesn't just let things happen). This action makes it make sense why Lestat would still want to be with Louis in later books because Louis has shown that he keeps constantly choosing him over everyone. It, in turn, makes the Claudia and Louis relationship more interesting because of how strained it gets (while getting rid of the weird, edgy, sexual blood-drinking dynamic they had in the book) The racial elements add a new dynamic to basically all of Louis' relationship. Like Book Louis, he is depressed, but there is anger to him that Book Louis does not have because of all the pent-up rage he has being black and gay in a time period when racism and homophobia were rampant. I can’t even be fully mad at Brad Pitt for not even trying to act well in the movie and hating the character because Book Louis sucks.

[@HorrorGeek9]

@Rotom0479 LOL Anne Rice herself even wrote what Louis and Lestat marriage/wedding would look like. It's no secret that she based them on her and her husband. Which makes her sidelining Louis even more hilarious. Show Louis is Book Louis if he was not boring and badly written. Book Louis can stay away. Also, Anne Rice signed off on the changes for the show.

[@HorrorGeek9]

@Rotom0479 2 is super easy to answer. Anne Rice has made it clear that Louis was stand in for her and the grief she was dealing with and that Lestat was a stand in for her husband and how she felt so anger at him (To quote her "Stan is Lestat") Lestat even shares the same birthday as her husband and Louis has her birthday. Interview with the vampire was her way of grieving her daughter's death which Claudia represented and the tumultuous relationship she was in (Louis and Lestat) . Like this is not a secret.

[@HorrorGeek9]

@Rotom0479 1. Lestat himself says Louis is his lover In The Vampire Lestat and throughout the rest of the vampire chronicles. They even kiss (multiple times but they are short and not described in detail from what I remember) and he becomes his consort (Blood sucking is the equivalent to sex for them). Have you read past the first book? Anne Rice philosophy is all the Vampires in her books are bisexual. A quote from realms of Atlantis "He crossed the hall and put his arms around me and kissed me on the lips " (Lestat and Louis kiss). 3 and 4 are just subjective. I can say season 2 is currently tied on metacritic with Babyreinder as the best rated show by critics this year and both seasons are 90%+ on rotten tomatoes with high average scores from critics but that does not matter if you yourself don't like the show.

[@Necrodancer1312]

I've been saying this for years. There's space for the sanitized stuff, but there's just as much room for messier queer rep that I just don't see much of anymore. Give me earnest bad taste and disaster protagonists over the commercial stuff any day.

[@noahbossier1131]

I absolutely agree

[@MantisSage]

I'd recommend Deadloch for messy queers in an insane crime drama, they're disasters (affectionate)

[@Bully_Biscuit]

We need a variety of queer rep with a variety of personalities. Too much rep in the past has been negative.

[@LordoftheThings327]

James Somerton fell flat on his face so Ant could *soar*

[@jpgextinction]

I'd say they're pretty similar except the stealing part (I hope)

[@daniellewagner7140]

The podcast The Magnus Archives is my personal favorite piece of queer media for so many reasons, and one is the fearlessness with which the queer characters (basically the entire cast btw) are represented. It’s spinoff, The Magnus Protocol, has a trans character named Alice who is loud, annoying, lewd, slightly mysterious, and hilarious. She’s the first trans main character I’ve ever been exposed to and she’s wonderful because she is so flawed and “out there;” she’s not a “safe” queer character to appease cishet people, she’s a queer icon.

[@kurokura8379]

this!!! the magnus podcasts have been some of my favorite queer media of all time because of this.

[@kituzolkin]

The Magnus Archives is queer? how it just a horror podcast/audio drama

[@cottontaelle]

​@@kituzolkin haha its very queer! if you want to find out "how" i guess you'll have to listen to it!

[@normbreakingclown676]

A very short answer is that bland or corporate cleanness is always way more common that true art so it makes sense that LBGTQ representation is gonna be bland as well but it's better to include them even if it's bland or bad.

[@TheMightyPika]

my favorite queer or queer coded 'villains' that were complicated in a good way: 1. Ozymandius in Watchman is pretty clearly gay, does insanely evil things, but... ya get it. He has a point. 2. Silco in Arcane is queer coded and is arguably the real hero of the story, as he and Viktor are the only characters who give a shit about the oppressed classes. 3. OG Sailor Moon had SO MUCH queer representation it's CRAZY and they were all well-rounded characters with their identities just part of who they are, not the focus. Zoisite + Kunzite and Fisheye are my queens.

[@agramuglia]

I want you to come back with that third point at the end of the month. i have something planned

[@TheMightyPika]

@@agramuglia >(0 W 0)

[@sfmwolfproductions]

It’s like people have forgotten about “be gay do crime”

[@Pistonrager]

It's nice to finally hear someone else with this opinion. Way to many people in media flat out refuse that any type of minority can be represented as anything other than perfect

[@drakoky6894]

The main problem with queer villains is not that they are villains, but conservative people. Conservatives will cancel the "good" queer characters and only leave the "bad" queer characters, as happened before with the Hays Code, when a queer character was only allowed if they were the villain. So, a young person will only see that "being queer is being a villain."

[@Nightmares-]

As someone who is queer, and who’s bullies were also queer, we need more “evil“ queer characters. Im currently trying to put together a pilot for a show with a pansexual villain.

[@Mr_Mustache_og]

Fr I noticed that pansexual characters have this chaotic energy that makes them fun to watch.

[@ZaiDrizzleDrop]

20:10 MAN, it seriously is interesting hearing you say this, the projection is just absolutely insane. There's so many videos talking about "snowflakes and safe spaces, offended". But even a hint of queer rep gets people making video essays about how media is too woke. MAN I'm glad I didn't spend my life being like that. It really is freeing to see how wrong I was to believe that stuff, I'm excited to like...move forward and just learn more.

[@NoFirstNoLastName]

If we are talking lgbt villains/anti heroes/not exactly the most virtuous people, Let me present: Baldur’s Gate Astarion and Minthara. Terribly flawed, bad attitudes, only warms up to you if you make choices I wouldn’t deem as moral, and I love them. Minthara is an evil woman, while Astarion is more anti hero, but still…

[@chookiemunster]

I do agree we need Queer villains, whose motives aren't related to be Queer. Complex Queer villains.

[@chookiemunster]

I said their motives should not revolve around being Queer, because no str*ight villain's motives revolve around being str*ight...

[@austinreed7343]

@@chookiemunster Except Frollo

[@chookiemunster]

@@austinreed7343 Frollo's motives were because he was a creep, it was drunk with power, no one dared to oposse him, until Esmeralda. If he had been any sort of queer, he would still be a creep.

[@irinaiturri]

@@austinreed7343 any villain motivated by romantic love or lust are motivated by their sexuality in some way

[@cosmicspacething3474]

@@chookiemunster I find it fucking hilarious that you censored straight for no reason

[@superfiver]

What a great video, you covered the pressures of why properly written LGBT characters mostly haven't happened and why it's bold for well written characters to exist. The subject really cannot exist without talking about the pressures of capitalism, I feel you did really good job covering this subject, and I hope this sparks good discussion with many and rise awareness of the current core issues of why we don't have the best writing possible. Thanks for taking your time giving the proper focus the subject deserves. I learned a lot with the older movies and examples outside of my lived experience, thanks for that. I feel older context is important to understand older generations perspective, as media does have a large influence on generational thinking, even if it's just subconscious. Also, RIP Yuri on Ice.

[@davidcheater4239]

A couple of thoughts: 1/ I'm uninterested in stories that try to make us less queer for the straights. They are so prevalent that many queer people have internalized that our stories ought to look like Love Simon and Young Royals while rejecting stories like Bros and Q-Force. So few stories involve queer communities. 2/ Neil Gaiman based stories (The Sandman, Dead Boy Detectives, Good Omens) set the standard for me now. Queer characters just exist. The story doesn't have to be about their suffering as queers. The stories don't have to justify having queer characters and relationships just as stories don't have to justify the existence of straight characters or relationships. We are in the stories because we exist in Real Life. And even characters, who on paper would be problematic stereotypes, work. The Corinthian would fit into the long history of evil murderous gays - except the context has sufficient diverse queer characters that his queerness doesn't define his evil.

[@fRkOdCmK]

"We need bad queer rep" Bruh She-Ra and the Princesses of Power ended in 2020 and there's still people calling Catra an abuser and bad rep and blah blah despite the fact that her redemption was handled better than Zuko. When Q-Force came out it got eviscerated despite being a beautifully animated/ ok series. Most people don't have the media literacy nor the self awareness to handle "bad" representation.

[@Thed538dhsk]

I disagree. I think that's underestimating the audience

[@bookswithike3256]

Q-Force's main problem was the awful trailer that made it look like a show that appealed to no one. I've heard that it's actually pretty good since then, but haven't found the time to go back and watch it.

[@jonal5126]

I’m sorry but don’t compare Zuko redemption arc with Catra, Zuko was handled way better than Catra

[@kirakoraawesome]

Ok but Catra honestly sucked?? I like 'bad queer rep' my favorite character is joker lol, so I don't care that she was evil. But Catra is abusive, and my main problem is that the show doesn't treat it as such. She is shown being physically abusive to Adora before she becomes a villain (when they are kids) and afterwards too. Not to mention all the emotional abuse. Now, if the show acknowledged this, I would be fine. But... It doesn't really.

[@fRkOdCmK]

@@kirakoraawesome you're proving my point

[@ItsAllNunya]

Chicken or egg: are the antishippers to blame for corporations latching onto this stuff or did corporations feed into the epidemic of idiots who believe problematic media is equivalent to real life actions? We many never know. Until somebody does a thesis on it i guess.

[@Garlic_bread_7012]

I'm so glad you mentioned Yuri on Ice! With the recent news of MAPA scrapping the movie, fans were so disapointed. We knew it was not going to happen, after waiting for so long, but finally seeing it happen was just a gut punch.

[@xblade149]

As a gay man myself, I want to see a gay or bisexual man with flaws including heroes. That's why I love iron bull.

[@agramuglia]

Iron Bull is freaking fantastic

[@xblade149]

@@agramuglia Also love your video.

[@azazel166]

Wonder what kind of multi hour video essays from the usual suspects this video will generate.

[@agramuglia]

Who knows? I don't directly criticize them in this one, so it could be nothing or it could be something.

[@CinemageddonReviews]

I’m still half way through the video, but I just wanna say: We need to accept LGBTQ+ Rights AS WELL as LGBTQ+ wrongs!!!

[@samuelclayhills3298]

In fiction right. Not irl right. Oh fuck.

[@morigaena333]

@Rotom0479obvious troll is obvious

[@swatantrimukherjee3033]

I'm just worried about the aftermath of having these flawed LGBTQ+ characters and villains. I would absolutely love to see more of them, but what if the conservatives point to these characters and say that children will get influenced by their gayness and their bad behaviour now? Plus I don't know if you guys in the west know this, but in India specifically, Gay is still used as an insult. It's like 2024, and gay is still used as an insult. In fact, I feel as though my society is actually going backwards. The kids around me use the n word to refer to themselves. They are giving us hope that maybe gay marriage will be legalized, then taking all that away. I'm just not sure if the world, at least India and other conservative countries, are ready for these characters. Plus there is already lots of transphobic sentiments going on these days. I hope the world can come to the day where I, as an Indian person, can clearly declare that I am bisexual, without it causing discomfort, pressure, sadness, loneliness and grief.

[@yoggothemadgod6196]

As if people don't have a crooked view of Christians or Muslims due to hollywood and biased medias

[@KariIzumi1]

I'm a Black woman. We had more positive rep than one could shake a stick at from the 70s through the 90s, filled with middle class to wealthy families from Moesha to the Huxables to Uncle Phil and Aunt Viv to Joan and her friend group from _Girlfriends._ None of that stopped white folks from voting for Trump. Making ourselves more palatable didn't win bigots over. Hell, even electing the lightest skinned Black guy with eloquent speech wasn't enough to turn the needle and arguably is why people snapped hard in 2016. I don't think continuing to make only the most safe projects for mass appeal is going to work out any better for the queer community than it did for us 🤷‍♀️

[@KariIzumi1]

​@@yoggothemadgod6196I'm pretty sure people have biases against Christian because many have either been raised in toxic church communities or know five people who have. If anything the portrayals in media was born directly out of creatives' own experience.

[@swatantrimukherjee3033]

@@KariIzumi1 Ahh but you see America is a more liberal country overall... You had those good portrayals of your culture already, and it didn't work out, yes, but the difference in India is that we haven't had those good portrayals of LGBTQ+ folk honestly... It's used as a plotline or a bad thing, and never truly explored beyond that point. So I don't know how people in my country would react to flawed LGBTQ+ characters. Hell, most people don't even like their own skin colour. Positive LGBTQ+ rep, flawed characters and all, seems like a very out of reach dream. Even now.

[@swatantrimukherjee3033]

It's like development is very late. For example, my parents hadn't watched any television until the 2000's and even then, the channels they had were news channels. So I don't know how many years it will take for people to accept LGBTQ+ in the first place, let alone in the media and especially with flawed characters.

[@Chance_Of_Chaos]

I was not expecting Yuri on Ice to be brought up, but man I was so validated when it was

[@parisulki729]

Maybe correct wording would be a full spectrum of representation. Good example would be Robot dreams. It is the story of relationship not going the way you planned and moving on. So a very bittersweet tale.

[@Alex-cz9oo]

Great video! Although I appreciate the good representation in children media in shows like Craig of the Creek for example, I agree that we need more nuanced portrayals in all genres and categories One of my favorite characters in media is an "evil" gay, Clay Puppington from Moral Orel. Clay is bisexual but over that he's a raging alcoholic, an abusive father, a terrible husband and just a really bad person in general and the show makes a point to not separate those parts of him, when he's with the man he's in love with he doesn't become a nice softer palatable version of himself because that version doesn't exist, he doesn't get a redemption either cause he doesn't deserve it after all the things he does, his sexuality is a relevant an explicit part of his character and plays a big part in his story but it is not all of it, it is not the cause of his suffering not his salvation, just another layer to his person. He's gay and pathetic and you love watching him dig his own grave as the show goes on I would also like to give a shoutout to the webcomic Uriah, an amazing horror series that goes deep into the mind of the most disturbed and twisted characters I've seen and treats them all equally independent of sexuality, and shotout to Vincent specifically, another one of my favorite gay antagonists I'll be waiting for your next videos! :D

[@nonbinarynyan]

Part of the problem was that over time, for a lot of viewers the queer coded elements of villains weren't so much queer rep as just... villains. Seeing those traits elsewhere didn't suggest anything "queer" to my younger mind, they were just tumbled in with everything else villainous. You make a lot of good points in here about depictions being worn down, editable, and oftentimes the bare minimum, but I'm also frustrated and confused with some of your messaging. You seem to spend a lot of time building the point that the positive depictions, whether a tiny background bit or a longer section, aren't good for queer people anymore because they're being used to sell products and make corporations money. You walk that back a little near the very end, but counter to how you proceeded and outright stated before that? Messiness happens to some degree or another with everybody, and there's definitely value and need for showing it. And messy happens in a LOT of ways with WIDELY varying ramifications. But that doesn't negate the value of a black woman kissing her wife and bouncing their kid in a short scene being treated as a natural matter of course. Not shouted about with a ticker tape parade. Not in need of defense in the film. Just *there* like it's natural, because it is. (Though seeing Chris Evans also telling people off for being jerks about it OUTSIDE of the film universe was also nice.) We need all kind of representation. But if we suddenly shun anything and everything that HAS been of value or encouraging because a corporation or anyone else tries to swipe or use for their own profit, we're just limiting what we can paint with and enjoy in another direction.

[@nickrustyson8124]

While hes not a villain, Gay Perry from Shane Black's Kiss Kiss Bang Bang has to be my favorite gay character in all of media (I have seen) because hes this take no shit detective kicking down door while being a very blunt and sarcastic gay man

[@PatrickWDunne]

Most don't know this but FW Murnau was gay. He's most famous for Sunrise, The Last Laugh, Tabu, and (the one you're probably familiar with) Nosferatu.

[@morigaena333]

@Rotom0479why are you even here

[@PhoenixRising87]

Great video! Though, if Disney were honest, they'd recognize that they introduced their first queer character in 1998 (three guesses who it was!).

[@agramuglia]

Shang

[@erraticonteuse]

No, it was 1986, Basil in The Great Mouse Detective. Gay and/or ace king, that mouse. 😄

[@PhoenixRising87]

@@erraticonteuse Oh, yeah! Duh. I do headcanon that Basil and Ratigan are exes (Basil being gay and Ratigan being bi, like his VA).

[@egg_bun_]

​@@agramugliaGOOD GUESS BC YOU'RE SO RIGHT

[@TanukiPunk]

Gargoyles came out in 1994, actually.

[@lizzycorvus5109]

As a trans woman whose creativity is fired up by low-budget horror, pulp fantasy, and old exploitation movies, seeing the online discourse around 'good' representation bummed me the fuck out and I'm still de-internalizing that kind of brainrot. Understandably, given some of my interests, I find John Waters' ethos relatable and I really need to delve into his work more.

[@valekstormhowl4999]

This is exactly why i love helluva boss so much. The characters are allowed to be bastards bc they're literally demons from hell. They have messy relationships, self sabotage, face trauma, create chaos, commit crimes, swear, kill, etc. Yet we still love them and route for them to succeed.

[@The_Evil_Eye]

Damn, I didn't know Mappa started with Yuri on ice. I only ever knew it from AoT, Jujutsu Kaisen, and the other shonen stuff it does now. Do you know if the Japanese rainbow capitalism is any different from the American rainbow capitalism you discussed in this video or are you confident the industry is much the same (industry trying to middle ground between an anti-queer market and a new but small queer market, believing the market only wants "respectable" queerness that bends to cis hetero culture).

[@warman13x]

I want to add a fairly niche bit of detail to this for anyone who may be interested. First off, there is no doubt that Yuri on Ice was their earliest breakout hit by an insane margin. However, it isn't like Mappa was a studio of unknowns. Mappa started when legendary anime producer Masao Maruyama left the studio that he helped to cofound, Studio Madhouse. Maruyama was also partly responsible for getting the late, great Satoshi Kon to create his anime and films with the support of Madhouse. It is extraordinarily likely that Mappa would have had some level of success based on Maruyama's name alone. Kids on the Slope was one of Mappa's first projects, and, while it didn't have mainstream success, it was widely regarded as great at the time of release. With that said, there is an undeniable increase in the scope of projects that Mappa was involved in after the success of Yuri on Ice. It can't be understated how huge Yuri on Ice was for Mappa, but they likely would have found a way to succeed and exploit their workers health regardless of the show's success.

[@kituzolkin]

Japanese does not have rainbow capitalism just due it history they are far more accepting of it but as whole due to it collectivist culture it nowhere near as open but if we talking media wise then is a shit ton of queer stuff my favorite is Pmmm

[@sailorsagittarius8526]

​@@kituzolkinOh especially the movie version of One Stormy Night. Where the original book Mei and Gabi have not even a gender, because the readers interpretate the gender of them. The movie version use the male gender for them. What I heard is that it is controversal this version in japan.

[@aricheec7722]

based. if we cant have deeply flawed lgbtqia characters we will never have real lgbtqia character arcs.

[@ladygrey4113]

So in a kinda example of messy queerness but still for kids Dead End paranormal park over the course of the two seasons had multiple queer characters with the more earnest stories but it also deftly handles supernatural and messy queers with the 1st seasons antagonist Pauline who possibly signed a contract for eternal life if she kept possessing bodies. We have demons and angels and the ideas of good and evil are challenged. Demon who tried to scoop your eyes out? Turns out they struggle with being unable to return home and doubts themself as a demon. That angel helping you control your powers? He actually wants to brainwash you into destroying humanity.

[@ladygrey4113]

Adding this: Except Netflix canceled that show too right when the characters firmly reject heaven, one character is possibly dead, and another traverses to the demon realm to work with them to fight heaven. Edit: and this is just me being petty to a supposedly adult show too scared to spend 5 minutes with its main queer couple and that thinks biting is an out there kink, it handles the “Heaven isn’t actually good” theme waaaaaaay better

[@themythosarchives7520]

Steele did finish the graphic novels the series was based on. Though I haven’t read them yet.

[@ladygrey4113]

@@themythosarchives7520 true but still the principle that they cancelled the show right when he was finishing the story

[@erdood3235]

Confidently, i just today watched a classic Soviet animation 20 minute musical that i watched when i was a little child, that i can see be *Easley* adapted into a messy queer story. The film is an adaption of the bremen musicians. The 2 musicals are with English subtitles on KZbin

[@erdood3235]

@Rotom0479 cry nazbol

[@morigaena333]

@Rotom0479oh fuck off. You’ve made your point, you hate us for existing.

[@j.d.cunegan302]

Geez, warn us next time you're gonna show *that* BTVS clip... (Also... bad time to mention the sapphic romance thriller I wrote last year, where lesbian assassin ex-lovers spend the whole book dodging other assassins in a KILL BILL-meets-ATOMIC BLONDE romp that avoids certain icky LGBT tropes...?)

[@j.d.cunegan302]

@Rotom0479 There are no pictures in it, so you wouldn't like it.

[@j.d.cunegan302]

@Rotom0479 Yeah. Too many words with more than one syllable for you.

[@marbelezju]

that sounds sooo epic

[@matt0044]

I think this video goes over how Nimona was well adapted despite being reigned it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g2nLfadohtqBm9E In particularly how Nimona is an agent of chaos yet never truly kills (intentionally). It sort of speaks to how queer youth like her does want heads to roll in a society that wants their heads on a pike yet they're largely all talk with their frustrations. They don't want to kill but to live and not feel like their identity is painting a target on their backs. There's also how Ballister seems to allure to queer adovates or ally who tell the "bad behavers" to reign it in like your video describes. To which Nimona asks, "easier for who?" Frankly, I'm surprised that the movie was like that initially in seeing how the queer community was split this way.

[@superfiver]

Stares at title, feeling spicy are we lol. I agree with the title premise though. Time for me to watch the whole thing :D

[@ZILtoid1991]

I personally go with the following mantra: If in my country I will already be rated 18+, why should I be less edgy for other regions and not fill in the gaping hole of edgier LGBTQ+ media?

[@Ray_D_Tutto]

This is so true and hwy representation is so important. Even as a kid aside from my sexuality i just never connected with squeaky clean children's stories. You don't relate to them and only feel more alone, weird for not identifying. South Park, Malcolm in the Middle, Diary of a Wimpy Kid etc all depict how kids act.

[@matt0044]

I often feel like with Indie, we do get more explicit representation good, bad and in-between but that there are still strings attached since the lack of a major studio behind the project can create a termultuous production. Add to that, Disney and Dreamworks are among the most mainstream names in family entertainment. Thus they'll a ton of attention by virtue of acknowledging queer people in their stuff. That's what make headlines. Thus indie production may be having a boom as of now buuuuuuut that's still casting a smaller net with slow production time and niche audience. I feel it sadly contributes to what you've discussed in a sort of feedback loop.

[@matt0044]

I also think we need "bad" representation in the sense that... art should f*ck up and be given a chance to actually to improve. Artists have to start somewhere and stumble out of their comfort zone.

[@gl3718]

HAZBIN HOTEL / HELLUVA BOSS have multiple queer couples in them with messiness and imperfect queer characters. And it is incredibly telling how aggressively people want these shows not to exist and how eager they are to denigrate it for its flaws.

[@kituzolkin]

that because they have flaws of course their songs are perfectly fine There is little I can say about that. But the characterization of some characters are dumb

[@morigaena333]

I don’t know much about those shows, but there could be a variety of reasons people don’t like it… not just because they’re queer…

[@kituzolkin]

@@morigaena333 same

[@Fr00glet]

Yes! This is what I was thinking when I opened the video. We have very sweet queer couples that have a lot of communication and care for eachother (Charlie and Vaggie, for example), and we also have bad queer relationships. (like Angel and Valentino.) It shows that members of the LGTBQIA+ are literally the exact same as other people, and their relationships have lots of diversity *exactly the same* as straight couples.

[@Vampyroteou]

I’d strongly disagree on hazbin. Charlie and vaggie barely have any issue, it’s like a 5 minute break to do their own thing and then “I’m sorry 4 yelling :(((“ Angel is just the most painfully annoying gay stereotype. Sad little white boy gets bought by evil latino man. It sucks. Alastor is mid.

[@ilaydai5159]

I would love you to talk about yuri on ice in a separate video as i think there is genuinely so much to talk about, and would also be good to keep the story alive. As for thesanitized queerness rep, i am more than okay with it. However, i completely agree with the desire and need for more messy, bad, morally ambigous queer rep. NBC Hannibal truly does that a justice and maybe that is one of the reasons why it's such a timeless show. Overall, just like any other media, queer media also deserves diversity and variety.

[@oliverafton1444]

I mean... Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel have that sort of bad lgbtqa representation.

[@HaughtyToast]

Meanwhile Helluva Boss left its audience debating which member of the lead gay couple is the shittier person for three months while they wait for the next episode.

[@BigDaddyCola]

Saw your sailor moon vid and this one and appreciate the more balanced and well informed discussion on these themes compared to alot of the other youtube content out there. You nailed it on the head that corporations ultimately dont care about anyone or any cause. Ultimately all their appealing to different groups of society is about commodifying it and selling a product.

[@ruo9881]

I would absolutely love a video on Yuri on ice, that show literally made me!!! I cannot believe it's just... gone??? never to be continued, forever unfinished. I really don't think they're going to sell the rights... ☹

[@samcotter6236]

I know people love to Hate on Helluva boss and I totally see why someone wouldn’t like it, but I think it’s really good in this regard.

[@samcotter6236]

@Rotom0479 that’s craaaazy cause I didn’t ask

[@ageridthesilverdragon4440]

wait there was a twist with Zeug... the kiss is legit the only thing i heard about the lightyear movie

[@Games-cw9pg]

As someone who you would probably label as “bigoted”, I think the “bigot” crowd is probably more annoyed with queer representation in more established franchises/IP’s where they didn’t see it as such. - you brought up She-Ra and Buzz Lightyear. Both are established/legacy IP’s that I grew up with that didn’t seem very LGBTQ - I think most don’t care about representation in newer franchises or franchises that are not marketing to the heteronormative crowd. Example Steven Universe and Nimona - People generally like things the way they remember and value. Changes in tone and character(s) within a series generally can be seen as jarring, obnoxious, distracting, etc. and mostly controversial/contentious - Changes towards mainline characters like Iceman being gay, Wolverine being in a thruple Cyclops and Jean(?), Bridget from Guilty Gear going from femboy to trans are controversial. It changes cultural perception of the character and possibly how the character will be portrayed in the future. - Alternate universe Wolverine and Colossus are gay, but not very controversial. They are their own thing, just like Steven Universe or Nimona. Ladiva (trans) from Granblue is also noncontroversial - A character like Bugs Bunny crossdressing might be seen as a simple and funny crossdressing trope to heteronormative audiences, and a queer representative to a queer audience - Black/race representation has a similar perspective. People like Storm, Black Panther, Blade, etc. However, Little Mermaid, recent April O’Neil, Netflix’s Witcher, etc. changes are more controversial - As a frame of reference, the aforementioned changes to a well-established character are just as egregious to me as something like Dragonball Evolution, The Last Airbender, Wolverine Origin’s Deadpool, etc. Also consider audience response towards franchises such as Teen Titans>Teen Titans Go, Devil May Cry>DMC(2013), Sonic>Sonic Boom, etc. TLDR: my comment is more focused on representation and changes in legacy franchises and how contentious it can be to change things in a property people are attached to. Thanks for reading my half-baked word vomit. As a peace offering, I recommend Boys Run The Riot which is a coming-of-age manga about a trans boy.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Imagine believing that original She-Ra and He-Man weren't much LGBTQ... LOL... Change bad! Give me same 💩 over and over and over again...

[@samfilmkid]

The movie "Bros" had a lot of faults, but it did depict a pretty messy, relationship between two gay men (with a LOT of gay sex) that also had a happy ending!

[@TyroneBruinsmaFilms]

You ever find that those who can't read...promoting burnin-I mean banning books

[@TryinaD]

I love making my queer characters villains or morally grey, but that’s just because I believe in Queer Rights and Queer Wrongs. They are just villains who happen to be queer

[@StragProductions]

the thing about MAPPA is that yuri on ice wasn't an out of nowhere decision for them. most of their anime up to that point had canon LGBT characters, to the extent that i was having to assure people after episode 1 aired that this wasn't going to be another queerbait sports anime. and it's not like they stopped making them after yuri on ice either - zombieland saga featured an explicitly trans girl in the show's idol group. zombieland saga also isn't one of their big names but did get multiple seasons. so i doubt MAPPA was purely seeing the lgbt content as a means to an end. money is unfortunately a huge factor in anime production and not being able to turn a profit is always gonna stunt projects.

[@guesta9822]

I’m surprised you didn’t talk about Arcane on Netflix.

[@Gookwear]

It may sound silly but I feel that the over-virtuous representation of queer characters is related to the fact that for straight people, queer people must earn their respect. I remember that years ago some friends told me that they respected me more than another gay person for the fact that I expressed my homosexuality less, and that has always stayed with me, I think that for straight people, homosexuals do not deserve respect just for being their peers. but we must earn it back for daring to be different

[@UnlikelySpook]

I knew from the first 30sec that scream would be brought up and i was not dissapointed

[@MustachedTom]

should be noted helluva boss is also doing gay rep and the last episode showed some mess. More support for indie titles like it are clearly whats needed. I have my own book/ideas for shows but I can only write and not animat them but there is lgbt+ rep in it.

[@stevencontreras84]

This is true. Make a gay villain please.

[@GiuseppeMario-d8y]

But there _is_ bad LGTBQIA representation. Lots of it. See every movie from 1965 until about 2009. (ZING)

[@kilgoretrout413]

BAD GAYS by Huw Lemmey and Ben Miller is a recent book on this subject- well worth reading 📖

[@erraticonteuse]

**sigh** I have my own...opinions on how they approach their subjects, but I think they're good enough as an intro to the people they talk about. But for the love of God, do further reading if any of those figures really interest you.

[@chompchomp8759]

Idk, from what I’ve seen most gay characters are comically evil villains. That, or they’re emotionally/mentally manipulative. Gay people in media are just socially perceived as deviant. We need more gay representation and that is just normal, and not the extreme of both sides. We need to normalize it, not demonize or deify it. Adhering to a conservative idea that being gay is sexually and socially deviant, or that it’s “more pure” than straight relationships just further isolates it from the mainstream culture.

[@supercellcyclone6468]

Sally Rooney's "Conversations With Friends" is an excellent example of realistically messy queer existence that I really enjoyed. The BBC adapted it into a TV series that I'm yet to watch, but it goes to show that a publicly-funded broadcaster that is encouraged to produce local but diverse content will do what more profit-focussed corporations won't, and why we need more of that.

[@LordoftheThings327]

This was an excellent and insightful video that expressed the need for unsanitized rep, while also understanding and not demonizing the origins of the positive rep we've been getting in recent years, and also explaining the actual -why- of having only corporate friendly rep is a problem for the community being represented It's another facet worth mentioning that this could also serve hand in hand with a call for rep specifically and exclusively for Adults. Not just in having adult set dressing like vulgarity and explicitness, but also in tackling mature subject matter without sugar coating, leering juveniley, or balking at it. Like, I'm a gay adult, I want to see adult characters in adult situations tackling subject matter that is written for mentally and emotionally developed adults, and sometimes that means getting dark, messy, and uncomfortable. I don't need exclusively morality lessons or stories about the importance of forgiveness that's written for queer kids and families. Doesn't mean that fluffier media can't also be really good in its own right, but its mind numbing having it be the only option for more heavily produced content beyond indie comics and books. Calling for more of one thing doesn't mean we're calling for less of the other. We can have Both.

[@irinaiturri]

exactly, we need both queer media for kids and queer media for adults

[@aresbarlow-busch8259]

The moment I heard the name MAPPA my heart sank. Their handling of YOI was so terrible. As someone who has loved and cared for the show forever and one of my biggest comfort characters is from it (Yuri Katsuki), I cried hard when it was confirmed that MAPPA didn't care about the IP anymore and it's heartbreaking

[@M1ManOwaR]

The most likely reason for this is that the Queer Community was commonly tapped for villainous roles for decades, and the Community has been complaining about this the entire time. Because of that, the decision has been to "play it safe" and not so anything that offend the Community.

[@disgoop]

so we need queer villains because us real life queer villains need representation

[@andr3theloser]

Cannot help but think about the debate that it's taking place around Interview with the vampire TV , with a fanbase that comes around the 70's and well familiar with the material , the whole Vampire Chronicles has characters that are clearly complex and nuance , carryng within themselves the burden of immortality and what it does to an individual, the queer aspects of vampirism and their messed relationships dynamics moving the story are heavily seen by new viewers as strictly problematic (especially on tiktok). This , and what fans have taken notice about AMC not promoting the show in ANY way besides the basic interviews has many solid old fanbase , the ones that accepted the show's new inputs in storytelling, very upset with how the portrayal of some queer stories (particularly horror explicit ones) are not taken seriously anymore. Insane , seeing how astounding this show is doing when it reflects the passion everyone in the crew is putting.

[@emuanon34]

When I saw how both toxic and popular Catradora was it made me realize that lesbians are no different than straight women who want that spice in their romance. I really love it tbh because it shows me that we shouldn’t shame each other for what we can enjoy reading as long as it doesn’t hurt others.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

That's horrible simplified take on catradora.

[@emuanon34]

True, Catradora is more likeable.

[@lisprn-tt1tu]

The other day I watched 1970s yakuza movie "The Violent Street" in which the protagonist gets ambushed by a menacing transsexual female assassin. According to Japanese Wikipedia, Madame Joy who played the assassin was not a professional actor but a real transsexual the movie producer met in Tokyo. (Incidentally, Ando Noboru who played the protagonist was formerly a real yakuza boss in Shibuya...)

[@Americanbadashh]

Bad gay rep is everywhere. Watch something made before 2010 and it's likely there

[@amdza]

I fully believe we need good representation. I also believe it's impossible to have truly good representation unless you show all facets-- the good and the bad. All these clean cut, seemingly perfect characters just end up feeling empty, like hollow dolls doing an idealized performance of an actual human. Gimme some conflict, gimme some toxic characters, gimme characters with an inherent hypocritical flaw. People always talk about character development, but they can't grow unless they have a flaw. Plus not all character development is positive. Gimme a good downfall. Gimme anything pls. I'm desperate and bored.

[@gracegrrl007]

This might be a weird place to ask this question, but I'm curious what people think as a writer and creator! I'm asexual and heteroromantic, in a committed relationship with an allocishet guy I am deeply in love with. I ADORE writing and creating characters and have somewhat accidentally ended up with a lot of LGBT+ characters. I tend to prioritize my characters being HUMAN more than anything else; I want them to feel like people you could potentially actually know in real life, which means sometimes they are exceedingly messy people and I have written several canonically LGBT villains. My question is, is that like. an okay thing for me to be doing as someone who isn't really entrenched in the community?? I've ALWAYS liked men, never struggled with my gender identity in any way, I have a lot of bi and trans friends but have no personal experience with the messiest parts of being gay/trans...so is it acceptable for me to write characters with struggles and opinions that don't always perfectly align with the majority opinion?? Should I stay in my lane and stick to writing what I know personally, or do you the wider LGBT+ audience want to see more portrayals of LGBT people as People in all their chaotic and sometimes toxic glory and, so long as every character isn't just a piece of human garbage with zero redeeming qualities and they're primarily good people with some bad traits, it's welcome to see? I have no clue if I'm making any sense lol but I just. I earnestly love people so much (for the most part lol) and I love creating characters who aren't like me because they're like SOMEONE out there maybe, but I feel a vague sort of impostor syndrome about whether I can get away with creating characters from a minority I am not part of because they're not perfect angels and it feels like I'm always two seconds from stumbling into a stereotype I wasn't aware of until now oops

[@agramuglia]

Yeah, it's absolutely okay.