We Need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Shriver

[@Babjengi]

I think something missing from the discussion is the theme of existential dread. There's a very particular section of the book where Eva contemplates why Kevin chose those victims, and she talks about how each one loved something. The athlete loved sports, the popular girl loved herself, and his teacher loved him, etc. What I got from it was that Kevin suffered extreme existential dread, and Eva senses it because she too struggles to find purpose. She wonders if she passed on that pain (as was mentioned by previous commenter @Jayne Lewis), and I believe his jealousy of others who could live for something when he was frustrated at being unable to see the point of living at all lead him to do what he did. It's extreme nihilism as far as his choice to turn it into spectacle, but there's an anger at the world for being able to go without questioning the endless why.

[@mikelykan.9416]

To describe this book. A new form of contraception.

[@jaynelewis372]

I had a different take on this book. I felt that throughout the book Eva was revisiting her every thought, feeling and deed from before conception on to determine her culpability in Kevin’s actions.

[@akanetendo8340]

I've only watched the movie but it was interesting to me to listen to your video. I feel like Tilda Swinton did such a good job, she's amazing. Through the film, you can feel all the emotions you have described: she doesn't want a kid but she really try, she feels so ashamed for hating Kevin that later she feels like in some ways it s her fault too. And that's why i think she forgave him.

[@박유선-y3s]

I don't know if loving a child is a must-have obligation for mothers. I know that it's necessity but you can't control emotion. This thought might be the very reason for me being disqualified as a parent. I also think building a good or bad character have various factors. It's not 100% Eva's fault for her son's crime.

[@moonshine7355]

I tried to read the book and it was hard for me to get into and so I watched the movie 10 years ago. The relationship between him and his mother, his up bringing and coming of age were so interesting for me. There was a lot of foreshadowing in the movie but when the massacre happened I was shocked lol.

[@classiccarsclassicrock9433]

Loved the movie, gave up on the book about a quarter of the way through.

[@elderberrynovels3864]

I am so interested in the motherhood topic you mentioned. It is such a big question, such a big decision.

[@Chareads]

Have you heard of Motherhood by Shelia Heti? Another great book on the topic chareads.com/books/motherhood-sheila-heti/

[@evad7933]

You kept calling Kevin 'Franklin'. Yes, having a child is a HUGE gamble and one ought to believe in BAD EGGS. One cannot divorce one's child furthermore.

[@MrBritishNinja]

It felt to me like Shriver projected her anxieties of motherhood - and otherwise - onto the thought-mother of a thought-child, then followed that child's affected development to it's natural conclusion.

[@Joeyjojoshabbadoo]

Yeah, something like that. And it resulted in a very, very dark little novel. Totally fictional, totally made up, totally gratuitous, wrested from the bowels of her own frightening imagination and emotional soup. And this is what she came up with. An awful mother, with a nearly uncontrollable loathing for men in general, and particularly for her own son, the entirely vulnerable and dependent child of her loins. And she sees fit to create an absolute monster out of this fictional child she herself never had. A monster explicitly and unmistakably on account of her own self-aware toxic mothering. For all to see. Just the way she probably would have done it in real life. This is what I think of children, and this is what I think of men. And the rest of the story writes itself. And that's what this novel is. Thank god she was true to her word and never had kids.

[@18wolfspirit]

One of the most frustrating things is that the community Eva moves to in order to be closer to the correctional facility where Kevin was staying at shuns her when she didn't do anything obviously wrong. Some children are born with mental illness that affects the part of their brain responsible for logic, empathy and other normal human emotions. Even if they are born to loving, normal families. Hard me to tell whether or not damnation is warranted for such people.

[@adrianazashen]

Yeah, I didn't understand that hate. I could only think it was her hated herself, but then a stranger tried to help her when she got slapped in public, which tells me it's actually really happing, not just her in her thoughts. That seemed very weird, especially since her husband and daughter were also victims. Very strange community.

[@msjkramey]

@@adrianazashen but she lived, the final torture from Kevin. Now she has to bear a scarlet letter forever--the mother who failed tragically and led to the death of so many bc of that failure (or at least that's how she'll be perceived)

[@bluebamboomusic6882]

If you haven't seen it yet, I'd highly recommend the film. Also, it's been a long time since I've read/watched it, but i seem to remember some very interesting comparisons between this and Rosemary's Baby.

[@LorenaMartinez-gs4fe]

How is this compared to rosemarys baby????

[@lapin96]

one of my favorite books!

[@evad7933]

Just finished reading it. Eva is a thinly-veiled version of Lionel Shriver. Excellent book though it seems Lionel was in a constant state of confusion as to whether to write third person (with greater reach to specific information) or first person, giving readers greater access to Eva's mind. Recalling specific dialogue in her letters is absurd, for instance as was the detail of the gym scene. Lots of ground covered in the novel, not least the nature versus nurture issue, which is up front and centre. Very creative mass murder technique given by Shriver (who clearly and ironically bemoans the copycat aspect of mass shootings perpetrated by msm coverage) for readers (and film viewers) who live in places where guns are hard to obtain.:) I was left wondering whether the adult female-adolescent male sexual under tones reflected Lionel's sexuality.

[@Antastesialit]

I absolutely loved both the book and the film. I feel like it should be talked about more!

[@amyshiva]

Had to turn off…..the child’s name was Kevin! It’s in the title of the book you are reviewing for goodness sake. Franklin was the husband….🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

[@LorenaMartinez-gs4fe]

???

[@asherhodges2757]

What I think the narrative is demonstrative of is the collaboration of both nature and nurture factors in the developmental environment of a child that results in them engendering a personality style that is capable of such violence. Given the role of genetics in the development of a Cluster B personality disorder, or its role in a persons limited cpacity for empathy, his lack of regard towards others can hardly be entirely disjointed from the same trait demonstrated so thoroughly in his mother. Likewise, one could argue Kevin's observance of this behavior may has just as well influenced him to pick it up. Though much more outwardly warm to his father, Eva and Kevin are by far the most similar individuals in the family. They share the same distrust and critical view of others. They have few friends or associates who do not simply provide material benefit to their own ends. At any given moment, they find little to appreciate about their present circumstances. They regularly find themselves understimulated and irritated by the drone of daily life. They are quick to anger, prone to lash out. They often seem to think that they deserve better, and that they simply know better than their contemporaries in converstation. In short, Eva and Kevin are narcissistic, self-important, and critical. They are suspicious, and seemingly incapable of meaningful intimacy, especially in regards to each other. A lot could be said of how this novel illustrates how, in a seemingly endless cycle, children with psychopathic or hostile tendencies can foster reactions of resentment, reproach, and escalation from their parents, in a manner that if not warranted or effectual, is at least understandable. It depicts with great detail the degradation of the maternal bond in a war of attrition, through which each side gradually loses the pretense of love or faith in the other, bit by bit. Of course he did terrible things, his mother didn't love him. Of course his mother didn't love him, he did terrible things. Whether you hold Eva responsible for the actions of her psychopathic, machivelean, and sadistic son, or hold Kevin responsible for his actions borne of a childhood rife with distrust, resentment, and inauthenticity, you leave out a key piece of the puzzle, and in doing so remove the nuance of the discussion so much as to scrub any shred meaning from it. Personally, I find the main question posed by the narrative is not who is at fault, but instead, who isn't?

[@mahender6969]

kavin is like alex from clockwork orange, rotton

[@t.michaelbodine4341]

I couldn't finish it. Kevin is such a hateful presence, I had enough after 2/3 of this thing.

[@---xz3sx]

I think you nailed it

[@GeoffreyProf30]

I just finished the book, and I'm not sure I understand the ending. Did Kevin kill to be loved by his mother? Does he do all these bad things to be loved by Eva? Thank

[@LorenaMartinez-gs4fe]

No. He’s a psychopath that’s how they are, they have zero empathy or emotional ties with people. They don’t care is all about themselves they are narcissistic and selfish , many of them are born like that, they are what many ppl use “ antisocial” that’s one of the correct terms to refer to someone who acts or is that way , like Kevin. He just thrived in causing pain because he was never happy and never will be, he was incapable of loving anybody.

[@KayraR1221]

I do believe that evil children exist, some just don't have the ability to feel emotion as easily as others do and they seek pleasure and excitement in things that are violent and wrong....I think its rare but I've heard some pretty crazy stories about kids who are so young and continue to do bad things for the thrill of it..... anyway, I just watched the movie but now I wanna read the book for sure

[@LorenaMartinez-gs4fe]

Of course they do , psychopaths are everywhere.

[@ErinM5923]

You keep calling Kevin 'Franklin' confusing review

[@OWlsfordshire]

Yikes, it seems there is A LOT the movie left out. It felt very off to me. Less than a minute into this vid and reading 1 top comment gave me all the missing context needed.

[@xo_ecstasy]

babe, i know you don’t believe that. but there is a whole research on this exact topic. if children are capable of being born “evil” (chemical imbalance) or not. and it has proven that it is. it’s in genetics and there is people that kill for pleasure and no remorse , even children yes. thinking not is a bit naive

[@CharletteG]

Like the whole nature vs nurture debate, how things can possibly genetic, I feel like Kevin was definitely a product of both.

[@박유선-y3s]

This novel shows the innate risk of birthing a HUMAN.

[@evad7933]

Here is an interesting interview of the author about her novel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m2bHfoB4qrx4pJI

[@V009j]

Thank you❤

[@penelopeplimsoul3617]

Franklin? Don't you mean Kevin? Franklin was the husband. Nobody brings up the curse that's brought on when a child is rejected in the womb. This can alao happen if a woman contemplates abortion. It's the spirit of rejection and of abandonment. Absolutely the mother bears responsibility for this. Children are highly perceptive. They know when they're wanted.

[@radleyisidore1900]

That's bullshit. A lot of women have considered abortion, yet not many mass murderers until last two decades. It's a societal thing, not mysoginistic morality

[@MrBritishNinja]

Close, but it's not the content of the thoughts that matter. Stress during pregnancy, especially deep, new anxieties and traumatic stresses are passed along to the child priming it to be specially reactive towards stressors in the future (pre-natal cortisol effects). It's like setting up a child for PTSD

[@msjkramey]

Do you have even a scrap of evidence? I doubt it

[@Plonmbvgfyhssjxuxu]

I just gave up a quarter of the way in, found this book very dry and Eva a tad pretentious

[@emiliobello2538]

Maybe she had Kevin too old

[@GuiltyFeat]

Yeah I hated this book. Really hated it. I found it deeply dishonest on an intellectual level. Shriver has written extensively about not wanting to have children and while I fully support that decision, I find her attempt at justifying herself by written an unpleasant book which suggests that anyone's child may turn out to be satanic intellectually disingenuous. She spends the entire book trying to let the mother off the hook, even adding a coda where the evil little shit she has given birth to absolves her for all wrongdoing. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Hateful, self-involved tripe that would have been best left unwritten. This is like a vegan writing five hundred pages about how eating egg salad will probably give you Ebola.

[@Chareads]

"like a vegan writing five hundred pages about how eating egg salad will probably give you Ebola" 😂 I think I was reading it too generously when you put it like that, because I totally agreed with you, and yet I did like some aspects of it. I heard her on The Spectator Podcast the other day (a British conservative magazine) being the kind of bombastic inflammatory pundit I don't have the time of day for, and I lost a lot of respect for her. I think if I read it after hearing that I would have been much more critical.

[@bev9708]

Well perhaps you are absolutely right but it's not the way read it at all... I read it that Eva, the character, is constantly trying to let herself off the hook and absolve herself, ohhh yes, but not the author!!! I saw very clearly from the very beginning that Eva was not only extremely responsible but also blindly self-centred in so many ways ... she sees herself as an enlightened person yet was not true to what she truly wanted in life, then blamed her husband for her having a child she didn't want when in fact it was she who talked both herself and him into it, she did not get help nor even ask for help for the severe psychological and emotional repercussions of birth, just blamed the baby, gave absolutely zero consideration for the effect her lack of engagement and interest would have on the baby, which we know are absolutely massive and life-long... and this is just for starters!!! Of course the husband's head-in-the-sand problem-solving technique exacerbated the situation enormously. Yet, of the very little I know about Lionel Shriver, yes it's absolutely possible that your reading could be far more accurate... perhaps it is actually Ms Shriver who is blindly self-centred!!!

[@user-pg1iw5je7p]

Anyones child can turn out that way. Accept it.

[@박유선-y3s]

​@@bev9708 Not asking for help is because she may feel like she doesn't deserve to receive help since the entire world is saying child's sin is mother's fault. Also, everyone has character defects. Even if a parent tries really hard to raise a good child, you know how it is impossible to control a human

[@bev9708]

@@박유선-y3s In real life, clearly!! However this is a character in a book and interpretation is about how the author wrote the character, and why!!! I could not see any evidence in the book that Shriver wrote Eva with an “unworthy of help” complex!