We Used Computers To Really See How Good Rope Spokes Are!

It's been a couple of months since Adam and I built the rope spoked wheel and even if I haven't ridden it every day I certainly haven't been going easy on it and I wanted to do a follow-up video to show how it's holding up.
At the same time, we had Steff join us after he got in touch telling us about his software that can give us a better idea of the characteristics of a wheel with regular steel and rope spokes...is there a difference in wheel strength? This video finds out!
It's quite a talky video but there's a lot of great info packed in. Because the original rope spoke video did so well I'm hoping this level of detail will be appreciated. I think this tech could be great for riders/teams/manufacturers looking to really dial in the feel of their wheels!
Of course I owe Steff a huge thanks for reaching out and putting the work in to make this video happen, if you want to know more about what he does or want to contact him for business reasons then please head to his website where you can get in touch.
evotechcae.com/
Also a massive thanks again to Adam for his input and helping me understand what's being said and shown to me haha.
This was filmed at Tartybikes which is an awesome Trials shop in the UK, they can get most MTB products as welll as Trials and do fast world-wide shipping so please feel free to order from them and support a great business.
www.tartybikes.co.uk
Thanks for watching!
See you next week!
/ aliclarkson
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[@evotechcaeltd1583]

Thanks for all the positive vibes, everyone! Pretty simple analysis of the wheel, but gives an insight in a way that would be pretty tricky without FEA. Take a look at the link to our site in the description , if you want to see more stuff like this. 😊

[@smuy3782]

You NEED to run this on 142 vs Boost vs Superboost hub spacing!

[@BramBiesiekierski]

@@smuy3782 yes. That would be interesting

[@adamsatur7277]

This has made me wonder: would there theoretically be value to setting tension differently on leading vs trailing spokes to balance braking vs accelerating forces, assuming that the tensions were balanced between the drive and non-drive sides?

[@BramBiesiekierski]

@@adamsatur7277 could you even set the leading and trailing tensions differently??? I would have thought the net tension would need to be in equilibrium. You could have individual spokes of varying tension, but the combined net average would have to be equal wouldn't it?

[@adamsatur7277]

@@BramBiesiekierski that's what I'm thinking, setting the tensions so that the resulting tension when under active load would balance out those red and blue areas shown in the simulations.

[@Rich_Pick]

Theres few channels which bring truly nerd pleasing levels of engineering into a bike vid. Would love to see more of these.

[@petewright2283]

WOW!!! Steff’s got some really cool software and code there. Love how he wasn’t afraid to show it off. Seeing 3 if you all getting technical was brilliant and Adam saying it with you and Steff agreeing. Really really cool video. Like you said Ali how stiff your rim is. I wonder if that was in the design and how much it would flex. Amazing job loved it. Want more.

[@joeldriver381]

Science! Steff on the Haro Master in the parking lot was a nice bonus.

[@greengonzonz]

Wow 🤯 I thought I was a wheel geek... I barely kept up. Loved this more than I thought I would. ❤️

[@lvburik]

Loved seeing Adam applies the knowledge you guys just acquired straight away to the real wheel!

[@twinshock175]

This takes all the old trial and error methods out the window. Knowing the margins and mid point of execution takes it to a whole new level, as reliability is the factor here. Exploratory modeling of different materials, thicknesses and loads is 70 sec reload, amazing. Also the original video is probably now referred via multiple web forums links and getting hits and comments elsewhere too. Loved the video, geek, tech and skill, what a combo!

[@evotechcaeltd1583]

Thanks, Roger. Glad you liked it. This was a pretty simple study, but showed up some info that would be pretty hard to determine in any other way.

[@YanDoroshenko]

Ok, Steff is a genius by definition, he's doing the smart computer stuff, but Adam also turned out to be really good at all this science mumbo-jumbo!

[@feedbackzaloop]

Great job, especially the parametrization of the rim! And genuinely impressed how Adam grasps onto the data, as if he took part in development of the model One thing that makes me worried, in scaled up deformation view there is bend in spokes, where should be contraction. It must be a post-processing artifact, however it shows that the spokes are modeled as beams between two points and most likely don't account for interaction between each other at crossings and maybe don't account for change of properties along the spoke as well (not suited for butted and rope spokes too!)

[@evotechcaeltd1583]

Good spot, FZAL! For a couple of the very low tension builds the radial load relieved all of the spoke pre-load tension, thus causing the ‘push’ you mention. The practical/FEA comparison I did in 1995 (!), showed this too. There’s plenty of additional detail that can be added from a design and simulation perspective, but the main aim of this was to show how quickly different concepts could be compared.

[@carlosflanders518]

@@evotechcaeltd1583 Is your 1995 report/thesis available to download?

[@customerisalwaysrigh]

it's cool to see the real view, the deflection looks so much like what we really see wheels do in slow-Mo on rough tracks

[@pojepoje4054]

thank you for having him on ali. quite informative and helpful

[@cliffwarner8356]

Interesting parametric model. I assume it was validated with the data from the 1995 thesis? One has to validate models to believe them. On factors of safety, that is an interesting topic without test data particularly given that the PE spokes are braided and you can’t use book values for UHMWPE. None the less, interesting model.

[@adampatterson]

Imagine what stress a trials rider would put into a wheel then! lot's of torque, then a strong braking force with all their weight on a landing.

[@whitecrowtech4948]

Love , love , love ! Fantastic work guys !!!

[@emanuelgebauer7098]

Very informative :) As an engineer myself in the FEA world I was definitely enjoying this one! :)

[@jonbraid2520]

I love techie videos like these and I'm always modifying pretty much everything I own. I can't leave anything standard. My factory Beta moto trials bike is over 5 kilos lighter than the original already very light bike. Im definitely tempted to make rope spokes next too.

[@javiergonzalez4708]

Absolutely loved the way he explained the topic and that you showed us all that explanation. Sure it is more technical than the usual content of the channel, but i found it real interesting.

[@WaechterDerNacht]

Great video! As an engineer this kind of stuff is always interesting to see... It's not every day one has the time to simulate something like a rope-spoked wheel. Great work! Please more of this...! ;-)

[@lynxg4641]

Had to stop, give a like and comment 1 minute in. BRILLIANT Ali, keep these sorts of in depth, tech videos coming, love them. [Edited to add] Great video, but need to be a bit careful on going through that sort of stuff too fast and not explaining in enough detail or showing animations slow enough and explaining them thoroughly (Adam did step in and try to do that a bit). Also, I hope that software is hardlocked to a very expensive key that Adam can't afford, or else his work at tarty might begin to suffer, as you can easily tell that that's right up his alley. Interesting with those cranks, seem to somewhat ring a bell to some I've seen recently from a US firm ;-) LOL

[@inactive67]

Yes for us intelligently challenged 🤪

[@onesquirrel2713]

Suddenly I feel the urge to check my spoke tension ;-)

[@stormeporm]

So cool, and so much good information.

[@NoBrakes23]

Loved seeing some old school flatland, but I really liked seeing the parametric sim stuff and wheel nerdery

[@AndyNichol]

Well done Ali For pulling both of them 2 back into reality and not going too far into geekdom

[@unclebob6291]

Total Nerdvana......I'm in!

[@jugaloo5873]

Andy Ruffell ACS 'Z' Rims baby!!!

[@evotechcaeltd1583]

Boing! 😆

[@tonymighalls9667]

Really interesting stuff here guys, well done. I’ve just got one question, how the hell did you wheelie that cargo bike?!?

[@fiftheast]

I appreciate you asking the hard questions. True mystery of the universe.

[@tonymighalls9667]

I genuinely did find this quite interesting, it’s amazing what software can do these days, but he really did seem to defy all the rules of physics wheelieing that thing!

[@Ali_Clarkson]

@@tonymighalls9667 haha well I tried with the electric motor which made it easier to lift the front but the power made it hard to modulate my pedaling once it was up so in the end I went without any motor assistance and just put it in the easiest gear and exaggerated my pedal effort and weight shift back…took a little while to get it but I did struggle to keep my balance mainly due to not being able to see the horizon

[@tonymighalls9667]

Well I gotta say it was quality, I was gobsmacked. Keep up the good work with all your content here too buddy! Top notch! 👍🏻

[@ek8507]

28:00 doesnt flex translate to fatigue of the rim materials (like spoke bed), thus resulting in a technically weaker wheel? very cool content!! always enjoy watching unique perspectives on the engineering and manufacturing side.

[@SjaakWWortel]

If you stay within a certain range of flex(elastic vs plastic deformation) it would not, using fea you could also check if there are any areas getting overloaded.

[@joshdonley2842]

This is incredibly interesting keep it up. Would appreciate screen recording if what's on screen is important or looked at for a while, just hard to read some of the graphs/tables. Would love to see more of this!!

[@RoyDangerMoney]

I love stuff like this!

[@Firby007]

That look really interesting! Can you check different spoke patterns for advantages/disadvantages? Like the crow foot? in my theory the crowfoot should give some advantages over the classic 3 cross, but i think your programm could really show if there is any! Cheers

[@nuttynut722]

you just burn my brain, thanks

[@nukacookie4755]

Super interesting content. Thank you !

[@VideoNOLA]

That particular English accent, with its abrupt stops and wild swings in volume, is the hardest for my ear to discern the gap between words. I just hear, "Iggy, iggy, bock, bumpty, oggy, nog, naggy boo tick."

[@nikkotate7541]

Very interesting.

[@Create_o_raptor]

Me.. seeing the title.. meh.. looks a bit bland.. realized Its what I do for a living.. then started watching.. 😅

[@Jacob99174]

Hilarious idea, Dino!

[@zarraskruger6041]

Not to geeeky, dude was awesome thanks for sharing the processss !

[@danieljozefczyk8666]

It's good what ppl can do now

[@nikveldkamp8630]

❤‍🔥❤‍🔥❤‍🔥why, can't tell you how much you enjoy this!!!! Nerder's Paradise... mass customization... I envision custom-built polyethylene spoked wheels by tarty bikes, with custom characteristics - Bike builders' heaven, and even if it's just dreaming and planning for the next years, at least a hell of a lot of (geeky)entertainment tonight.❤‍🔥❤‍🔥❤‍🔥

[@johnland7318]

Fantastic content, very interesting computer simulations, and a better laptop than mine, lol, my laptop would have crashed on camera.

[@Zestybwoi]

super cool!

[@hoey2323]

definitely interesting content, it's good to see how the rope spokes have aged. i had been wondering how they'd hold up to your brand of abuse.

[@onesquirrel2713]

I wonder if creep is an issue with polymer spokes. Seems like it would be, given the spokes are always under stress.

[@DaStuntChannel]

21:27 And then I'd guess if the rider were to brake at the same time as its hitting a big bump, the spoke tension would reduce even more on certain spokes

[@lukase.2487]

Interesting Video Ali ; )

[@inactive67]

Ok 9 minutes in and I hope he says ho many man hours he has in this latest examination because he makes it seam like he just did this for the heck of it. Like lacing up a new set of wheels, its just an afternoon of fun.

[@lonoreturns]

Input, Stephanie, more input!

[@sapinva]

More geeky videos please.

[@gafrers]

Fantastic

[@euanwilbert6925]

what about getting the rear wheel done aswell? or does it just deal with too much stress that it would flex too much on the rear?

[@Ali_Clarkson]

I’d be keen but it would be up to Adam to do it and in not sure if he really wants to do it again 😂

[@euanwilbert6925]

@@Ali_Clarkson understandable hahaa

[@swoofty1]

@@Ali_Clarkson You should hit up BERD for the rear and you could compare the two.

[@bobdobalina1419]

Wow he needs to get those crank arms adapted to a more modern bb.

[@SuperRalfons]

watching this video messed up my youtub algorythm. =P now i only get recomended maths an physics videos xD

[@evotechcaeltd1583]

They’re the best, though? 😁

[@davideiotti9725]

Very interesting

[@davidburgess741]

Energy is always conserved. Dampening is the conversion of kinetic energy to heat energy. The dampening occurs in the wheels and bike frame or occurs in the rider's body. Different materials absorb energy more, like foam rubber or thick rubber tires. That's dampening. Internal friction is what we see in fiber strands rubbing in rope spokes.

[@charliesponsel5091]

*damping

[@daveevans7474]

Looking forward to the how to wheelie a cargo bike video 🤯

[@forloop7713]

Should have asked them which spokes hold the weight of the rider, the ones on top pr on bottom?

[@lunam7249]

top spokes, 400kg each

[@marceldemore8673]

I have watch your video with amazement as to how strong rope spoke have to be. Could you tell me where the rope can be purchased? Thanks

[@u.e.u.e.]

To make a long story short: a flexy rim becomes with ropespokes even flexier, a stiff rim stays stiff. 🤪

[@ZenEndurance]

I just broke a spoke yesterday on the drive side near the axle while standing and climbing up a steep grade on a gravel bike loaded down with gear. Makes me wonder if a rope spoke would have snapped since it can flex and bend unlike metal. And then I couldn't replace it in the field because it was impossible to get to. But a rope spoke, I should be able to thread it through the hub hole and to the rim. Only downside I've heard is they get little cuts and then fray and break. Not sure if that's true would love to hear comments about that being true or not.

[@joseazurara3245]

Good video. Are Berd spoke made with Rope spoke? Thanks

[@wrench_n_ride8159]

this was a nerds Easter egg video!

[@ashleytombs]

Wow Steph is a modern day Albert Einstein a very very clever man Ali did you Feature in Danny Mac new Video or was it someone else who looks like you

[@cccpkingu]

Can you run a simulation of twisted spoke patterns? (No permanent bending with rope spokes, or actually having to do it.) Also, can you put aero fearings onto rope spokes? Does the added strength allow running lacing patters that are otherwise too weak for the independent spoke properties?

[@helder4u]

Something feels wrong or missing in these simulations - Is the wheel shown upside down in relation to how we ride , or has he not accounted for ground-contact-pressure , or something else?

[@hananas2]

Ah, a pure nerd episode, my favourite

[@Emtbtoday]

Seen a video on here yesterday someone in Canada building their dream bike a Scottish Deviate Highlander the crank was like this all polished amd hollow criss Cross same with his break leavers the crank was the shape size of another but completely hollow with this type.of structure it was soo damb cool and the leavers for breaks were the same! I want a set but he's not replied as yet with who makes it as can't find anything online for it but search my dream bike build Deviate Highlander and it'll probably pop up on first search if want to check it out or if you know who makes it let me know

[@Mike-oz4cv]

He’s joking about his age, but you can tell from the fact that he licks his fingers when turning sheets.

[@evotechcaeltd1583]

😆

[@rathergoodpie]

“Ali C - he’s like Brian Cox on a bike”

[@billlandon2160]

Should there be a some kind of protective shroud over the rope spoke hub mounts to prevent them from fraying? You didn't have that fraying on the disk brake side, did you?

[@lonoreturns]

BMX style hub guard.

[@billlandon2160]

@@lonoreturns thank you. Yes, exactly

[@ccarlock8537]

Try A symetry vs symetry rim

[@steenate]

Why has nobody put one of these on the rear of a trials bike yet if y’all are so confident in them?

[@Ali_Clarkson]

Because of the effort 😋

[@lunam7249]

yall's is not a word

[@troyesch6203]

I don’t think you would have had the fraying with a hook flange hub

[@helder4u]

Not too geeky, but I have some difficulty to embrace all details, wish it could be presented in a simpler way.

[@PhiTonics]

No, I couldn't follow... 31:35 is your answer fyi.

[@andre9552]

Could we get to know what kind of rope is that or how we can get it ? 😭🙏🏻😂

[@troyesch6203]

Berd spokes

[@paullmight42]

my brain still does't grasp the physics of the rope spokes lol...

[@Ali_Clarkson]

It’s really weird to guess how it looks and feels in reality but once you do see it in person it makes more sense :)

[@eznarwal1]

I think that the spokes are tensioned on the opposite sides of the wheel, so when you push down, it is pulling on the spokes on the top of the wheel

[@lunam7249]

imagine that your a hub monkey and your hanging off a rope "tree", the tree is the top side if rim

[@shadyhazza]

haha a haro master from the late 80s ?

[@shadyhazza]

(i still have my FST)

[@evotechcaeltd1583]

It’s the 2017 Lineage version - looks old, but has all the fancy modern shizzle (including the BSD Revolution freecoaster)!

[@shadyhazza]

​@@evotechcaeltd1583 sweet ride man A friend of mine had the master with the double top tube, my 87 FST is the sport frame. ya might have inspired me to update it and finally learn that decade

[@eznarwal1]

Third

[@eznarwal1]

Wow