We've learned the wrong lessons from our favorite stories

[@janilaurila8972]

Agreed, This is also why people hated the ending of Game of thrones TV show. After running out of source material it became painfully obvious that the showrunners in fact didn't understand why it was so popular in the first place. They fell into all the same traps as copycat shows. Character development was ignored and things just happend too fast. A lot of flashy battles and very out of character things that happened just to resolve the plot. If George ever finishes the books and It ends with exact same results I believe he could make the story inbetween much better and believable just by writing character decisions and motivation in a way that makes sense.

[@Bookborn]

I was going to say that this was my theory for why the last seasons were so hated, but as I haven't watched it I figured I shouldn't say it 🤣

[@marjoe32]

Overwhelming the fan bases take is this above. ​@@Bookborn

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

This EXACTLY The more I re-read the books and rewatch the show, the more I fall in love with the books and the more I dislike the show. When you remove the fact that the show has a STELLAR cast, and a costuming department DREAM TEAM, and look at the show without those in mind - it just... Isn't good. And I'm not even talking about the last few seasons. I'm talking about all of it, all the way back to season one, episode one. It's so clear that the showrunners did not get any of the symbolic language, mythological inspiration, or underlying themes drawn from George's personal values. They've admitted themselves that they read the red wedding and were so shocked by it that it was a driving motivator for them to adapt it for television. Not the question of what makes a good ruler, looking closely at the meaning of chivalry, family and honour, not thinking about morality or how much one can sacrifice for the greater good. Just pure, wonton violence, and shock factor. That's all they wanted. And it shows.

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

On the flip side, however, is House of the Dragon!! I saw a lot of people complaining about how HotD was slow and boring to them, or just not as good as Game of Thrones because of the tonal shift, but I firmly believe that Ryan Condal truly appreciates George's writing, and a lot of the themes and quieter character moments from the books are on full display in HotD. The ONLY real complaint I have with it (pacing issues only bugged me a little bit, I think they did fine with the limited runtime they had) is the "oh shit" moment at the end of episode 9, which felt so extremely out of place that I can't help but wonder if HBO didn't step in and say "hey, this is the penultimate episode, we need a big bang moment here". Otherwise I really feel that FINALLY, somebody is doing this world justice.

[@gunkulator1]

They didn't run out of source material so much as they ran out of good source material. The first four seasons of the show cover the first three books which were excellent. Books 4 and 5 are terrible and that's why season 5 shows a noticeable drop in quality. Season 6 was actually pretty good with eps9 and 10 being up there with the best episodes of the whole series and by that point they were already beyond the books. The last two seasons otoh are not so great with the last season not being good at all.

[@readbykyle3082]

Still love that he's "George" now. You're one of us.

[@Bookborn]

Georgie and me are bffs 👯

[@NonAnonD]

The first Katniss point is spot on. Stories are (in my opinion) meant to marry the character and their arcs with the world and plot. You can't just grab Katniss and put her in, I don't know, Westeros, and expect it to work.

[@thatwittyname2578]

Brienne encompasses many of the same traits.

[@Bookborn]

@@thatwittyname2578 Brienne and Katniss are wildly different characters imo haha

[@Bookborn]

Yeah, I think it's easy to overlook that stories are so much more than one or two easy things to put in a list

[@LilacSreya]

@@Bookborn​​⁠The other commenter didn’t claim they were exactly the same and indistinguishable characters, just that they share some similar traits, which I incline to agree.

[@marielyortiz9763]

yeah, like trying to put her in a court of thorns and roses with loving sisters...

[@jimihendrix23456]

Andor is a great example of getting the point of a work. It puts a dark twist on a lot of themes in Star Wars, while not eviscerating them. It also lacks a lot of the visually "Star Wars" elements like the Force and lightsabers, so its strength as a piece of art is its use of character work and themes. Also, it uses real locales for sets instead of just relying on the Volume.

[@spilchsaysstuff1427]

I never understood the appeal of Andor. For me, It appeared to have all the makings of a good show, but it was terrible Star Wars. ST is not a political thriller. It's an action adventure. For the first 3 episodes, Andor walks around in an incredibly suspicious manner. That should have been a meme. It wasn't until we got to the prison that the story had meat on its bone. But it resembles nothing connected to Star Wars.

[@jimihendrix23456]

@@spilchsaysstuff1427 I agree with you, to an extent. I wouldn't like to see everything Star Wars take its tonal and pacing cues from Andor, because that would shift it into a very different series. But for a series so long running, it does give a fresh perspective. I also liked Rogue One quite a bit, so a well-written prelude to that was very welcome, in my eyes. The things I liked were how it explored finding hope, the importance of family (found or blood), standing against oppression, and the arrogance of corrupt officials being their downfall. When I use it to reflect the more upbeat action-adventure nature of the rest of the series, it provides an interesting contrast without contradicting the themes. I think it's reasonable that you don't want that out of Star Wars, though.

[@Bookborn]

@@spilchsaysstuff1427 Hmm actually Star Wars is pretty dang political, especially when you look at the prequels! I love Andor because it's a different kind of star wars story. I think telling the same story again and again gets boring. But, I can understand if it's dark tone turned people off.

[@Mightyjordy]

My favorite example of this done poorly was when Pirates of the Caribbean came out and then they started releasing movies based on all the Disney rides, as if that was what people loved about it. The when Transformers made a billion, they released Battleship, as if people just wanted movies based on Hasbro toys. It’s sad that modern Pirate movies don’t really get made anymore and even the main POTC series is an imitation of what it once was. I’m mostly saying that because I’m reading the Liveship Traders trilogy from Robin Hobb and I’m freaking obsessed with pirates right now and want a movie so bad

[@Bookborn]

Omg yes I remember all the ride failures after pirates like pirates was lightning in a bottle, it wasn’t a ride thing! So silly

[@Zivilin]

Peter Weir could be a good director for a Liveship Traders movie adaptation maybe. His Master and Commander movie was phenomenal.

[@Mightyjordy]

@@Zivilin I haven’t seen that but I definitely will after hearing this!

[@SarahAsYouWish]

Yes, a Liveship Traders movie could be amazing!

[@lsmc8909]

And this is exactly what they’re going to do after Barbie was so successful, they were already making more movies based on toys as if that was the reason it was successful. That wasn’t the reason!

[@danlupo4665]

I will die on the hill that this is what took the Pirates franchise from one the most fun and well crafted movies of it's time into a parody of itself trying to capture the same magic - The first movie was incredibly well made and thoughtful and a compelling storyline contrasting valor vs propriety and class expectations - and it happened to have a very fun goofy side character in Jack Sparrow and fun ghosty pirate vibes The powers that be saw that people loved Jack Sparrow and decided that the rest of the series would just be "More Jack! Most Ghosty Pirates" without understanding that part of what made his character great was that he was a great foil for Will's growth - that he was a static character that never really wants to nor (in my opinion) should fundamentally grow or change in any way In the fourth and fifth movies they tried to recapture the magic of the first thinking that all was required was attractive young leads and a forbidden love storyline - but that wasn't satisfying either - they even tried brining Orlando Bloom and Kiera Knightly back but it still wasn't a replacement for a thought provoking and fun story

[@lydia1634]

Yes! Jack only works because of Will and Elizabeth. It's the dynamic of young, hopeful, and naive vs older, cynical, and world-weary. There were complaints about how boring Will is...but it's the contrast between him and Jack that makes Jack work.

[@duffypratt]

This is all just a corollary to the rule William Goldman set forth in his book, Adventures in the Screen Trade: Nobody knows anything. The book describes, in hilarious and sometimes cringeworthy detail, examples of that working within Hollywood, and examples of incredible catastrophic failures that stem from the hubris of Hollywood types thinking that they know something. Goldman himself may be an exception to the rule. After all, his adaptation of his own The Princess Bride is one of the best adaptations ever done, and its framing story veers wildly from the original, softening but also somehow preserving its spirit. My favorite species of these are the ones where you can actually see the pitch for the movie in the trailer: It's Die Hard on a boat. It's Die Hard on a bus. It's Die Hard on a plane ad nauseam...

[@patbau96]

If anyone learned the wrong lessons from ASOIAF it's David Benioff and D.B. Weiss 🤣

[@henryleake4697]

How? At least they ended the series. Martin got lazy and greedy

[@gunkulator1]

I'd add GRRM himself to that list. Book 1-3 are excellent. Books 4 and 5? Well...

[@henryleake4697]

@@gunkulator1 he’s added too many characters and completely lost control of the narrative. His editors really should have said after book 3 “no new POV characters!”

[@jaimelannister1797]

@@henryleake4697GRRM ignores his editors. We’ve seen stuff that his editors mark like the absurd amount of times George uses “words are wind” and George went on to ignore it

[@gunkulator1]

@@henryleake4697 Too many new characters, new places, new situations plus a lot of other rambling details that don't advance the narrative. You are correct that the main problem is with the editing. Much of this new extraneous material would be excellent to put in an appendix or perhaps a companion work but it does not belong in the main story.

[@MeMySkirtandI]

Martin's character work is definitely a strength that the Game of Thrones show was able to capture. When I read the series, in high school, I remember being truly moved by the soft quiet character moments like Katlin at prayer. Its because of that quiet time, that made her fate tragic. So many copy cats just cut the quiet stuff, the valleys, and jump from shocking peak to peak. Which (ironically) levels out the story and as you said misses the point.

[@Bookborn]

YES! I love how you described it as jumping from peak to peak - never giving readers/watchers moments to appreciate a character and sit in it

[@bulbakirb5789]

It's sad because Martin's character work was definitely the least important thing in the eyes of the showrunners. I think littlefinger is the best example of it because even George has talked about how the show version is just straight up a different character from the book version. The world of the show is also so much smaller, with so many cut characters and reasonings and motivations lacking. Robb's entire kingsguard is straight up not in the show. Theres so many small but important details that the showrunners did not care about just in general.

[@ScottBatson]

Even before the show, I feel like so many fantasy series started doing "major character deaths" because ASOIAF was getting so popular and none of them quite grasped what made the deaths in Martin's series so shocking. When characters die in ASOIAF it drastically changes the story. You go from thinking "this is a book about the north rising up" to "...I don't know how they get out of this." Other series will kill off a well loved character but it typically doesn't have a narrative impact other than motivating one of the protagonists.

[@Bookborn]

YES YES YES! I always say that you better have a purpose to kiling off a character - there better be consequences - or it'll always feel hollow.

[@donaldcatanzaro5318]

You hit this so spot on. What I don't get is *how* can these creatives can attract so much money, get so many people involved (e.g. producers, showrunners, actors, set designers, financials, etc.) when they are clearly missing so many points that you've listed. Its amazing that literally hundreds of people all have to say 'Yes' for something to get to either the movie screen or TV screen and then when you watch its like 'Huh, that was a lot pretty stupid choices'. Also, I think a *very* good example of this is The Witcher (from Sapkowski's book) - I mean talk about missing the point of the books!

[@Bookborn]

I'm not always sure it's the creatives to blame, tbh. I especially felt with Rings of Power that it was a lot of creation by committee - instead of one or two people with a clear vision, it was bogged down by every stakeholder who wanted a say - and that will kill creativity

[@jatzi1526]

@@Bookborn The Rings of Power is just a weird one. I mean they tried to tell a story when they don't have the rights to said story, they have the rights to the summary of the story in footnotes in another book. That's probably executives making that choice because Sauron is the big bad for LOTR, gotta have him in any LOTR thing, i.e. The Hobbit movies. Very weird though. And you mentioned the hobbits in the show as well. Hobbits practicing eugenics no less?!?! Why??????

[@schoo9256]

The people who greenlight it have no heart.

[@terrystewart1973]

@@jatzi1526 I disagree, they had everything they needed to make a good show right there in the LoTR Appendices. Check out, for example, *How 'The Rings of Power' Should Have Been Written* on the *Tolkien Untangled* channel. Also, when they wanted they did in fact use stuff from places like Tolkien's *Unfinished Tales* like the map of Numenor. And finally, given their complaint/excuse of not having the rights to Tolkien's writings outside of LoTRs, why did they ignore so much of the material they did have? As far as I can see, if they had access to Tolkien's wider legenderarium it would only have led to the ignoring even more stuff.

[@jatzi1526]

@terrystewart1973 I didn't say they couldn't have done a good job. Still weird af to make that specific story instead of a different one

[@RamyElMusic]

Great points! It's important to remember that we as readers/viewers can also often take the wrong lessons from our favorite stories because we get so drawn in by particular characters or events that we can easily overlook some of the substance of the story. With Game of Thrones, I've met people who genuinely idolize Tywin Lannister despite his several war crimes, or who believed Jon was best fit to be king solely because he didn't want the throne (without considering all his other admirable traits). We're just as susceptible to drawing bad conclusions, and today's readers become tomorrow's showrunners and publishers.

[@Bookborn]

Very, very true - it's often hard for anyone to really pinpoint what we like.

[@kristofferrosvall8709]

In Patrick H Willems video about R-rated superhero movies he calls Hollywood a reactive entity. What he means by that is that they don't really plan they just try to copy what most recently made money. And that feels spot on to what you are talking about here. But a lot of industries seems to work like that. Sanderson has talked about how a lot of publishers (around the time he started trying to get published) wanted books like ASoIaF because that was popular at the time.

[@Bookborn]

Absolutely, and in some ways, we've become more reactionary than ever because of the increase and ease of output!

[@kristofferrosvall8709]

​@@BookbornI forgot to say that if you don't have watched Patrick Willems I think you would like his video essays. They are mostly on movies/TV but some might interest you. Like the latest one, it's about adaptations where he bases a lot of his points around the Super Mario movie from the 90's and the latest animated movie.

[@morleywritesbooks]

i think some understand the heart of what makes a story beloved. Poldark is one i like to reference because while the show follows the plot more or less, the tone is shifted to appeal to a modern audience's understanding and perspective. There were things in the original work that we today probably wouldn't connect with -- chief among how they matured Demelza in the show so that she's more fierce rather than subservient to her circumstances, but without compromising her femininity. She doesn't go from doormat to warrior, but they gave her a level of strength that allows her to stand up for herself rather than wallow in self-pity, and she's one of my favorite characters for it. Shogun is the other that comes to mind. The previous adaptation the showrunners had this idea of not translating so that the audience would be as confused as John Blackthorn and only know what he knows. Which was a bold and creative move, but it meant that the audience couldn't connect as well with the story. The newer adaptation translates, but the tone (as well as what is said) is controlled by those who translate, so we can see the pieces shifting across the board and feel more invested in every character. And, it makes every character appear to have more agency. The show is less about being any kind of historically accurate, and more of a political intrigue with strong character motivation. In this case: they learned the right lesson from previous mistakes. I think in these examples, with their less successful previous adaptations, the showrunners understood that what made the books a sensation was in the characters, and so doubled down on that. For quite some time, something pounded into the minds of anyone in creative writing or filmography is that things need to advance the plot, plot is king, get from point A to point B efficiently. And it doesn't work. So we have screen writers and directors who take plot-above-all-else and neglect character. Couple that with producers whose entire job it is, is to invest in something that they can later profit from, and yeah... Weird as it sounds, maybe these mistakes need to happen. The same way the above had flops in their former adaptation and came back stronger in their second attempt, maybe it's a cycle so that the rest of us can assess and understand how to try for the better next time.

[@adamtideman4953]

10:40 I think you just perfectly described the last few seasons of Game of Thrones when the showrunners ran out book material to work with.

[@Bookborn]

I was going to say it but figured I didn't have a leg to stand on since I haven't watched it 🤣

[@ElCactus7567]

Similarly, I think that's what made "House of the Dragon" work, and hopefully continues to do in the seasons that come.

[@Beard_Hood]

I think a great example of failure to understand the material, in a same medium example, are the shows West World and Altered Carbon. Season one of both had shocking elements, but the character writing was a notch above. Season 2 for both jumped the shark and showed the new writers had no idea what they were doing.

[@mapletree3434]

I wondered why you mentioned Altered Carbon as a bad 'translation', then I realized you differentiate between 1st and 2nd season. I barely even remember 2nd one😂 Westworld-also, hard agree!

[@Beard_Hood]

@@mapletree3434 oh yeah, I also make the distinction between the book Altard Carbon and the show as they are mightily different too. But the show was was a major step down in season 2. Felt like a cheap stage play at times.

[@VinnieMF]

Westworld S2 was so disappointing. It felt like an empty shell of S1.

[@Bookborn]

Yeah I wonder if this sort of thing happens because they see chatter online about the wild parts, not realizing what goes into making those wild parts effective.

[@Beard_Hood]

@@Bookborn maybe, but I'm also growing more convinced that the majority or writers just have no idea what they are doing. They see the surface level and think that's all there is too it. For instance alot of modern "bad guys" are actually more rational and reasonable than the hero's. Example that comes to mind is Falcon and Winter Solider, they tried to paint Walker as a bad guy but he was the only reasonable person in the show. They tried to paint the terrorists as reasonable and "correct" but with the very substance of the series they were horrific people. That tends to be the trend I see with writers. They don't seem to understand ethics or morality.

[@hotplotsandsynonyms]

I've been thinking this for a while as well. The problem is that the "copycats" fundamentally don't understand why the original was successful, so they lose it all when they try to copy. My husband's greatest frustration with the red wedding in the show was that in the books it was caused by Robb valuing honor to not abandon the woman he had gotten pregnant and in the show they tried to convince us he screwed over his entire country and broke his word because he fell in love. So, the show-runners didn't understand that Robb's honor was so intrinsic to what made him compelling that taking that away and giving another explanation destroyed a lot of point (for people who loved the books). Similarly, the knock-offs of Hunger Games didn't realize that Katniss was, fundamentally, being USED by the rebellion, not an active, enthusiastic participant, and that struggle of hers was a major portion of why she was compelling. I'll throw in a fourth example just from TV sequels. Compare the original TV series Leverage to the "reboot" Leverage: Redemption. Leverage was engaging because it was about a collective of loner thieves with their own personal struggles learning to trust each other and discovering that, at their core, they really do care about more than what they've been living for. Sure, they conned a bunch of evil corporations and helped the underpriviledged in the process, but it was about them coming together as a found family and building something for themselves. The reboot is a training program for a couple of new characters, one of which was just a jerk and the other of which was a vague relative of a previous main character that we mysteriously never heard about in 8 seasons with that previous main character. The reboot was ALL about the cons and how the new characters needed to learn better, and the show-runners missed that the heart and success of the original show came from the character moments, not the "look, it's cool to rip off evil corporations" window dressing.

[@Bookborn]

omg YES ABOUT THE RED WEDDING. So I had my friends tell me how the red wedding in the show was different and I was floored by the changed to Jeyne (and just her being there also changed things a lot). Like the depressing part is that Robb DIDN'T NEED to marry Jeyne! It wasn't love! That's what makes it even more tragic!

[@ivanheffner2587]

Point of Order on the Red Wedding: Robb’s entire army was massacred. It was not just the people in the banquet hall. There were tents holding all of the soldiers who were also partaking in celebration. The tents were collapsed and set on fire with all of the people still inside. It was _thousands_ of men killed.

[@Bookborn]

Yeah so I didn't want to spoil things lmaooo but I meant main characters. Obviously the massacre of the red wedding was horrifying and disgusting, but my initial impression when it first came out is that like 15 main, named characters died. But I figure if I said "only like 3 main characters die" that's a bit of a spoiler 🥲 But yeah it wasn't stated well lol

[@ciandryl]

And that’s why the North in Dance will always remember

[@IshtarNike]

The way I thought the same thing, then I realised that 1) she was talking about main characters, and 2) she's trying not to spoil things. Are you a new sub? She knows what she's talking about. Have a little more faith in the creators, man.

[@futurestoryteller]

Even Tywin tones it down, at least in the show. The line: "Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner" Is iconic.

[@JahanMisra]

@@IshtarNike i don’t see why you’d have to be a new sub to interpret what she said that way. “i thought there was gonna be a massacre. i thought like 30 people were gonna die”. the way she said it definitely made it seem like she thought only the people in the banquet hall died since there definitely was a massacre.

[@bookdmb]

I definitely agree that oftentimes the wrong lessons are learned. I think there is a mode of artistic production, often profit- centred, that I would characterize as hollow mimicry, distinct from genuine influence. A couple other examples are Tarantino ripoffs in the 90s and Mark Manson self-help replicas more recently.

[@bidossessi]

I feel like Bookborn is talking about the Aes Sedai TV show as well. I didn't really like the books myself, but I understand why they worked for many people. I'm not convinced that the showrunners do.

[@sarahsuze7742]

The reason any story is popular is that it draws on unconscious material. When people try to consciously recreate that, it feels empty.

[@Bookborn]

Oooh fascinating point. An author brings so much of their emotion, ideas, worldviews into a novel without realizing, and copying that is difficult...

[@sarahsuze7742]

@@Bookborn Thanks! Also, trying to add your own ideas to something that didn't originally contain them produces weird hybridized products that (to me) don't really mesh. Better off to write your own story.

[@leonmayne797]

Ironically Galadriel in ROP was also blindly following the Katniss archetype, without understanding the archetype or its context and without understanding Galadriel.

[@daget34]

The Hunger Games is a good example of a property that knew how to copycat a stablished IP. Taking from Battle Royal the 1999 novel by Koushun Takami all the important components both of relationships stablished in the original work as well as the important emotional tensions built in the source material. It replays the important parts of the source material while bringing a whole revolution arc into the material that was not there in the original plotline.

[@madalynnr9940]

Anytime I see shows say they made the story more "Game of Thrones" like I just think oh great another show I won't be able to see even with the brightness turned to max.

[@Bookborn]

Lmao 😭😭 seriously why is every show so dark now 😭

[@madalynnr9940]

@@Bookborn I think showrunners think making it visually dark is the same thing as telling a dark story.

[@henryleake4697]

Game of thrones was one of the best looking shows on television - complaining about one poorly lit episode is so lame

[@madalynnr9940]

@@henryleake4697 not complaining about game of thrones I'm complaining about the shows that try to replicate game of thrones by making it so visually dark it's impossible to see

[@j.c.jeggis1818]

@@henryleake4697lol it wasn’t “one poorly lit episode”, there was also the goofy decision to have everybody wear all black for like 3 seasons straight and a general greywashing of the sets

[@MemphiStig]

What's missing is originality. There's a line in the Silmarillion about how Melkor couldn't create anything original, "save in imitation of others" and it made him resentful, to put it mildly. Imitation of course is part of the process, always, but if that's all there is, then it's all empty and meaningless. You have to bring something fresh to it, something with a heart of its own. But those who make content just to capitalize on someone else's success never care about that. So it's not so much about creation as duplication, and that never works.

[@OverthinkingConde]

Often learn the wrong lessons? Often????? Dark Night -> Everything has to be gritty. GoT-> All fantasy has to be blood, politics and boobs. MCU -> ALL has to be interconnected universes. Star Wars (back in the day) -> Ships, lasers and droids is all you need. The Force Awakens Success -> Soft Reboot is the way to go always all the time. Hannibal Lecter -> All serial killers are geniuses. Tony Soprano + House + Walter White -> All leads need to be *ssholes. And on, and on, and on…

[@BenJack]

Oh man, now I want someone to try to make a comprehensive list. Lots of great examples here I hadn't thought of all together, but are so true.

[@OverthinkingConde]

@@BenJack 🤔 Idea for a video? Comprehensive would be almost impossible. There are always new examples of stupidity 🤣🤣

[@Bookborn]

haha well that's the point of the vid! Every popular thing spawns knock offs that aren't good. But some people DO learn the right lessons and it's how we get great stuff, too.

[@OverthinkingConde]

@@Bookborn Ah! Ever the optimist! 🤣 You're right, of course, it's just that the bad examples infuriate me 😅

[@evacody1249]

​@BenJack it's not going to be much of a list. Many of the ideas were stolen from far early movies, video games, and TV shows. DCAU is what was copied. Blade and Xmen is what was copied. Star Wars OT was what was copied. Final Fantasy 7 is what wqs copied. World of Warcraft is what was copied. Superman was what was copied. The issue is no one knew what made them great and they just kept going with it. They also never had the end point.

[@adrianmedeiros8431]

10:52 The only reason the deaths hurt so much in ASOIAF is because we love the characters so much.

[@valetboy21]

The Expanse adaptation work so well because they had the authors in the writing room, while not leading the room, and those authors had enough humility to know they didn't know everything. The showrunner had to work around actors not being available multiple times, being cancelled, and a scandal near the end of their run and yet most people would call it the top sci-fiction show of the century if not of all-time.

[@petervandeweyer517]

I could not get onboard with that show. I thought that every time they deviated from the source material, it was the wrong decision. I actually have become very cautious with adaptations of things I already liked because of this show. ( I think the only ones I've seen since are Sandman and now Shogun)

[@valetboy21]

@@petervandeweyer517I liked most of the changes, the Ashford and Drummer character amalgamations in particular. I can see how those changes can make the system seem smaller, but it never really bothered me since the performances were so strong. I suppose it comes down to personal preference, sorry to hear you didn't like it.

[@petervandeweyer517]

@@valetboy21 Indeed I heard from a lot of people that they really liked this show. So I"m probably the odd one out 🙂

[@andrewannotates]

This video is straight FACTS. I was ranting about this with my co worker with wheel of time and how it’s so pushing to be “the next game of thrones” like quit trying to be “the next…” ANYTHING! It’s annoying lol

[@denglongfist4270]

Watching this video reminds me of the Ned Stark “bad decisions” meme, but you see all the work Martín put in place to make Ned Stark a relatable character. Similar with the Hobbits in LoTR; they have themes of friendship, courage, supporting each other, of idilic innocence that makes you relate to them. I don’t mean to be rude towards people producing TV/Movies today, but I see easy outs, a desire to be shocking for the sake of being shocking and doing what is convenient.

[@VenturesBeyond]

Thank you for expressing this, I've thought the same thing for so long! People saw Game of Thrones had tons of super adult content and suddenly every fantasy show, even ones geared more towards kids, included nudity and graphic violence... just because. Some projects just don't need it, especially when it contributes nothing big to characters or the story! Love the thought and effort you put into these videos!

[@crylorenzo]

Great video and I very much agree. There is definitely a dialogue among authors and true filmmakers that leads to more and more stories. But there are also those who are just trying to chase a quick buck and write whatever they can get away with. It's just a good reminder as an author to have my own vision and reaction to these properties, and as a consumer to not chase something similar just because it's similar.

[@charleshills1408]

I agree with you completely here! The "lessons learned" from the shows that work are so often completely butchered. Additionally, when you start talking about adaptations, etc. (Rings of Power, Games of Thrones, Wheel of Time, etc.) they have the issues of fandoms and pre-existing mental pictures of the properties. I will say, Game of Thrones did a better job (until the final seasons) then the others I have listed because they didn't shy away from shocking... or even try to re-tool the social constructs of the original pieces. They also spent a lot more time developing characters rather than trying to flash to big special effects and battles. Saw one person discuss the Wheel of Time series as having scenes in mind and then just ignoring how the characters move between them... and it is very accurate.

[@jodyvanderwesthuizen9017]

How is it that KZbinrs and the people who watch them, know this but the so-called "professionals" (who are supposed to know and understand show-running) don't? Remember when we used to preface our criticisms with, "I'm not saying I could have done it better but..."? Now we know we could all have done a better job. The pretense is gone. We've just been let down too much.

[@Bookborn]

I don't necessarily know that I could do it better - being an editor is very different than a writer - AKA, I can often spot mistakes but I'm not sure I could write something free of them. However, I do think it's related to the sheer speed of which content is being created today - streaming has vastly changed the landscape, and so I think the focus is often to chase smaller trends for money now rather than take a longer time to produce something long lasting.

[@dz_ssbm]

Most of them do but it doesn't matter when you get in a room with the suits fronting the bill who are just gonna say, "nobody cares about that, put more sex, violence, and hobbits in." The problem is they only view the project as a business venture so having hobbits in is a success for them regardless of its impact on the artistic merits of the end result since they can put them in the trailers which will increase sales.

[@evacody1249]

because regardless of what the show runs will say they all watched, played games or read books in the 90s that are on a level that Game of Thrones, Hunger Games, etc could only dream of. it's the oh you mean all stories need to have an edge lord and be dark with fantasy stories like FF7 while missing the point. Cloud wqs not an edge lord.

[@jimave]

100% agree with your points. I’m waiting for the Dune copy cats to come and missing the themes from the books and the movies.

[@NancyLebovitz]

I'm really impressed with this. I don't have additional specific examples handy, but just the idea that fiction needs to make sense on an emotional level is important.

[@PurpleKya]

Idk if someone else has pointed this out or not but in the red wedding episode, about 3,500 people die so in the show it is actually a massacre which is why it was so shocking and devastating.

[@jcmberne]

The other problem is that when you take inspiration from a property that works really well, by definition, your version won't feel fresh or original (or if it does, it only feels original because it's doing something significantly different).

[@DongusMcBongus]

George RR Martin: Revenge is a never ending cycle that deeply affects everyone involved. When seeking revenge dig two graves and no one wins at war. David and Dan: But what if battle biiiiiiiiiiig?

[@DongusMcBongus]

Also, to not COMPLETELY dump on Dingus and Doofus. Bookborn, some of the show only scenes in the early seasons are AMAZING. I know you’ve seen scenes on KZbin. If you have some time, Look up “Cersei and Robert discuss their marriage” “Jaime and Robert trade war stories” and in Ned’s execution, his last act is shouting “BAELOR” to Yoren, after seeing her. His last act being to save Arya. Even George was like, “wow why didn’t I think of that.”

[@EricMcLuen]

What studios haven't learned is they have to be very careful and have the right showrunners for their adaptations. You have a glut of shows trying to get in on the successful book gravy train, and some are better than others.

[@niightingale]

I think (the first season at least) House of the dragon is succeeding in an adaptation. Its based on a historical book so the show is able to add the character into these historical figures that GRRM is so well known for

[@tadious9415]

Yeah I think movies and shows also often struggle to create the next thing. The culture and favorite movies and shows of the next 10 years will not look like the ones that were successful in the last 10 years. Some will to be sure, but the longer you keep using a formula the less it will work. Especially if you're trying to capture the trivial elements without trying to capture the heart of them and really create something. I want the next great book. If I wanted a bland remake I'd just reread the book I already loved.

[@NicolásSánchez-z5y]

I love A Song of Jon and Tyrion (Jon being the ice/wolf, and Tyrion being the fire/lion)

[@theimaginarium]

I think you're right about the hobbits in RoP--they needed to be central to the entire plot. Hobbits are the heart and soul of LotR.

[@michaelmichaelson2014]

I've had similar thoughts about this for a while, this video really sums it up well. Like Rings of Power was definitely not the worst show I've seen, but it felt like easily the most hollow. Tons of well-shot scenes that seem like LOTR, but without any of the heart that made the original so good. Same thing with Wheel of Time, another Amazon show where it felt like some exec said "hmm, idk if a straight adaptation will be popular, just slap a Game of Thrones paint job on it" and it messed up the core of the story. If you want to make a good story then it needs a good heart first (with the aesthetic coming from that) not just copy the aesthetic of a good show and think it'll just get a good heart through osmosis.

[@Bookborn]

totally agree about RoP - I kept trying to tell people that the issue wasn't even lore stuff (we all knew they didn't have rights to the Silmarillion!) but it failed because ultimately the show was just BORING! Like I was just BORED! I couldn't feel connected to anyone!

[@sammcclure1553]

@@Bookborn I asked a friend his thoughts on RoP and his response to my text was simply, "Beautiful but dull".

[@catierobinson8969]

This is how i feel about the live action Avatar. There was some stuff that was really cool to add, but from the beginning it was very clear that they were trying to recreate as much as they could shot-for-shot that they completely ignored what people actually love about the series. It's 100% obvious to me that they don't understand the material.

[@maxt5319]

Popular works are created by artists with vision and skill, whereas the flops, like Rings of Power, are commissioned by commitee. The Hobbit was the same. Greed and the desire to create capital will always influence media negatively. It's why the Dune's and Lord of the Rings's of the world are few and far between. Expect some diabolical adjacent-media related to Dune to spawn soon.

[@gunkulator1]

We already have it with Brian Herbert basically writing fan fiction-ish continuations of his father's Dune series.

[@maxt5319]

@@gunkulator1 True, but I meant more in terms of media like TV shows, games, etc, following the success of the films. Maybe the Dune comparison was a bit of a poor one.

[@jimihendrix23456]

Dune Part 2 was the first movie since the LotR trilogy, that inspired me to actually give a focused read to its source material to then compare how they were done side-by side. In contrast, I've started the Wheel of Time because the show's first season got me interested. But only a few books in, I don't feel like the show will be as fun or interesting to revisit once I've read through.

[@benjaminrider6351]

Great video! To build on your point about Katniss--she is strong _because_ of her femininity. Her love for her sister. Her compassion and connection to Rue. Her refusal to accept the violent ending to the Games the Capital demanded of her, and changing the rules. I could go on. She is tough and masculine, but she grounds that in feminine qualities. And you are exactly right that Peeta is the perfect complement to her (from a storytelling perspective) as a man with relatively "feminine" qualities that give him strength. For any character, if you strip out the full spectrum of human experience, you take away what makes them human and compelling.

[@Bookborn]

I mean I think the heart of it, like you said, is that there is a range of experience and it's not into neat boxes. People pretend Katniss is a "male" female character but she truly isn't. Like you said, she has many aspects of her that are both feminine and masculine...like we ALL do

[@LilacSreya]

If some traits can be shared by multiple genders, then they do not originate from gender to begin with (at most, 1 gender has a tendency to have a particular trait). I get baffled at peoples’ insistence of using gendered terms when they aren’t connected to the gender.

[@benjaminrider6351]

@@LilacSreya Of course, individuals are individuals and any category you try to put them in is superficial. I am referring to the way that certain traits are coded culturally and historically as "feminine" or "masculine". These are just stereotypes, but they are meaningful in how we think of human experience (and the sterotypes are powerful in how an audience experiences a character). I think both Bookborn and I are arguing that the type of "strong female character" who just takes a woman and gives her masculine-coded traits isn't very deep or true to life. It's also implicitly sexist in itself in assuming that "feminine" traits are weak and "masculine" traits are strong (which is why the "strong" woman must be predominantly "masculine"). It's much more interesting--because more realistic and human--to portray any character as a complex mix of qualities. Thus Katniss and Peeta are interesting because they capture that complex spectrum of what it is to be human. They are great characters because of the way they combine feminine-coded traits (nurturing, gentleness, emotionality) with masculine-coded ones (fighting, persevering, toughness).

[@collicou]

Great video! Grr, I get annoyed just thinking about all the hunger games clones :P I also think a book "feeling derivative" can impact how you react to it if you're a fan of the work that it was inspired by. I was a huge Eragon fan as a kid and it was my first experience with a lot of those tropes so it felt totally novel to me. But I see people online saying they didn't enjoy it because they felt like they'd read the story before or because they felt it was ripping off other series they love, which is fair. I think we all have our own limits for when something feels like its inspired by or referencing another work in a way that's fun vs. when it feels like its ripping it off

[@matthewdeancole]

The Game of Thrones television series was hugely popular in comparison to failures like Rings of Power, Wheel of Time, and Shadow & Bone. However, the quality did decline when they ran out of source material and got ahead of the books and the showrunners did rush season eight.

[@michaelaporee260]

Great video ❤Can’t wait for the DwD review. I was reading along with you and am now watching the show!

[@allanmeirelesdesouza1187]

on RoP even a horse is a main character for while.

[@Atrulion]

These things often touch on this one thing (it might be a tiny bit irrelevant, but oh well): Too many stories try to copy elements of other stories and make their own. Like Hunger Games. People tried to put Katniss into thteir own story. In Game of Thrones, people tried to make things extra gory and sexual because "Oh well Game of Thrones did it and was successful so...". (I can't say much for LOTR because I haven't read it or watched it. SORRY). But they don't really realize that the reason why Hunger Games and Game of Thrones wasn't because of that one element. They were succesful because they were early in using that element, and creating a great story using that element. So as they became popular, suddenly people began discovering these elements and began using it for themselves instead of trying to raise a hidden element themselves, which is exactly why Hunger Games and Game of Thrones was so successful. Well ... at least that's my take.

[@emanuelborges4458]

This video hits so hard after the Avatar the Last Airbender live action... Everyone predicted it would be a garbage fire, by the producers interviews, and it was a garbage fire 🤡 "Hey, let's copy all the famous iconography of the show, without understanding why they were famous in the first place, but we'll change everything that's the core of the story to show BLOOOOOOOD and MUUUUURDER, because that story needs to be AAAAAAAADULT"

[@Bookborn]

Wait are we talking about the movie or the new live action?? I had heard some positive things but I haven't seen it yet (idk I liked the cartoon I don't feel the need for a LA lmao) I did think it was a weird choice to make Aang immediately take the role of avatar seriously since his entire arc in the show was about how he liked to goof around ☠

[@emanuelborges4458]

@@BookbornThe recent Netflix Series. Everything you talked in the video fits that series perfectly. Every youtube essayist i commonly watch burned that series. The only good things was the set designs, the hair and clothes department, and a few fight scenes. The acting, dialogue and script were awful. Just mild spoilers if you want: In just a few minutes of the first episode, they showed the air nomads genocide (one of the things the producers promised that would be in the show, as it would be a more """adult""" adaptation) It isn't just unnecessary, since the original show delt with that sensitive topic without appealing to gratuitous violence, but childish, because it wasn't even framed like something sad, gruesome and horrendous, it was just a random battle scene with people being burned alive. They were just using it as cheap shock value. Other thing that bothered everyone was that Aang didn't "run away", he was just flying around with Appa, chilling off, with him randomly being caught in a storm. It takes away all the shame and regret Aang fells, and worst, everyone here is yelling at his face that he ran away and that he needs to grow up. It doesn't even make sense.

[@terrystewart1973]

I think the plague of bad copycats has been around for decades really, it's just more noticeable to some people watching TV shows. I'm old enough to remember all the check knockoff imitations of the LoTRs books that came out in the 70s (looking at you Terry Brooks)

[@ylevre3285]

Brooks started as a copy of LoTR, but imo it definitely grew into something that was fully its own

[@Maximus0623]

I agree with everything in this video. I think one more reason for poor imitation copycat shows is studio executives. They see a hit like Game of Thrones and say we need something like that too. Then a show runner can be forced into a box of trying to create a worse version of a hit movie or show because the execs told them to. I think studio execs often don’t give enough room for creativity. Relatedly, this is also why we have so many sequels and reboots.

[@maxgoss5653]

Just discovered your channel and I feel like Jaime Lannister first meeting Cersei. Subscribed, MHYSA

[@dalriada7554]

It's funny to see Hunger Games used as a work being copied when you've seen Battle Royale. Because Hunger Game is really mimicking Battle Royale (down to the motivation for the games and the ending), but set in a fantasy world and with most of the social commentary removed. But I'll acknowledge one thing : Hunger games works as a stand-alone story. It's heavily inspired, but the author managed to do it in a smart way. Hence why it worked (with some problems, especially in the later books).

[@Bookborn]

In fairness, there is a theory that only 7 stories were ever told, so many things can be pointed as copies of other works. And, stories that are inspired by other stories can spawn new copycats, so I don't think it's mutually exclusive that Hunger Games could be deeply inspired by Battle Royale and still deeply inspire other works.

[@crimsonraen]

Ooooh my gosh YES! AbsoLUTELY learning the wrong lessons! When everything becomes about money, and is controlled by a board, the quality SINKS.. and then they wonder why their show was hated. Ugh.

[@Goldilockszone123]

The Rings of Power has the same relationship to the source material as Orcas do to Orcs. It ended up being a different beast altogether.

[@kyle4693]

And hooray for the ad roll!! I watched the whole thing. 💸

[@TheRavingPhoenix]

Great points. While personally I never loved Hunger Games it was clearly the best and so many just missed the point. I think the only ya distopia store I like more than HG was the Maze Runner series.

[@jimpavlidis5915]

What's funny (or depressing, depends on how you look at it) is that the bigger copycat of Game of Thrones... is Game of Thrones. The later seasons kinda seemed like the show runners either forgot, didn't care anymore or never really understood in the first place why the books and their own adaptation worked. *SPOILER* Things like Arya killing the Night King were shocking just to be shocking and to "subvert people's expectations" without any deeper reason behind it... or I guess the reason was girl power or something like that... I don't know...

[@michaelbodell7740]

I don't know that it is people learn the wrong lessons so much as the quality bar for things that seem similar to successes goes down as the successful thing creates a mini-fashion trend. So if something is a C-minus show/book about some topic that isn't in fashion it doesn't get made or doesn't get much marketing. But when something is in vogue due to a popular property, then the C-minus show/books that are similar get more of a push on the theory that people that want to see something similar to the popular property might give it a try. So I think in some way it is survivorship bias. Like the success of the books Hunger Games meant more marketing and more success for the whole genre of Divergent/Maze Runner/Delirium/Legend/Matched/Uglies/The Selection/etc. I don't think the authors were generally trying to copy things so much as the marketing push meant all of these books got more coverage/more reach than normal because there was a fasionable trend for YA dystopians like Hunger Games. But I don't think the authors were thinking they were creating the next Hunger Games, and I don't think the book marketing departments would think that anything less than Hunger Games success level would be a failure.

[@spartakick300FF5]

Campfire! I really enjoy this writing software. Definitely recommend trying it out

[@AllTenThousand]

This is a full basket of excellent points. Thank you!

[@mariodominguez3366]

Nice. Clever arguments.

[@lolod1234]

I hope you watch GOT, because I’d love to hear your opinion. 💯 on character development in the books. What the show did great in the beginning was display this through dialogue and interactions. The last season of GOT show completely lacked the dialogue we all learned to love/hate the characters through. Was so disappointing. Good thing about reading books 1st, is knowing when to close your eyes watching the show 😅

[@danielchapman6032]

For LOTR you could also have done the Hobbit movies

[@mattkean1128]

I think anytime you try to reverse engineer success, you're setting yourself up for failure, missing the forest for the trees and losing the heart and soul of a project. It's obvious GRRM is steeped in other fantasy, sci-fi, historical fiction, pulp, tv, and yes marketing. Things he loved that informed on how he imagines in an organic way. His stories are grown, bottom up. Even if there are derivative components.

[@Bookborn]

exactly exactly stories are always going to be an amalgamation of different references and influences and ideas but having a core creative drive and an understanding of why you love those things are going to make it successful

[@Arygo87]

The writers are sometimes not allowed to do what they want, i'm thinking there are checklists they have to fulfill (at least this is how it feels) ... also writers don't want their work to be altered ... it's not that writers and other types of people can't work together, but the contrast is jarring sometimes between what the writer does and what they have to add. The writer that does the show/movie is 99% of the time not the one that wrote the book (and sometimes they don't collaborate properly).

[@HughBotelho]

100% agree! Amazing video, Bookborn

[@davidw7861]

This certainly isn't a new thing. The original Star Wars was responsible for a lot of sci-fi copycats from people trying to make a quick buck. They they usually cheaped out on special effects, whereas George Lucas and ILM pushed the envelope, and were cheap looking films that went nowhere as a result. There's also the debate over whether George Lucas ripped off Dune after he was unable to secure the film rights. Edgar Rice Burrough's character of John Carter is another interesting case because filmmakers like George Lucas and James Cameron have admitted that those stories influenced them, yet by the time a John Carter (of Mars) film appeared in 2012 it was seen as a copycat of other films due to similar scenes. The most obvious example is the arena fight scene in Episode II that seems to have been heavily influenced by the one in the first John Carter book.

[@Bookborn]

I didn't mean to imply it was new, for sure! It's been happening as long as stories are being written. I mean there are some COPY CATS of LOTR out there lol and from stories much much earlier.

[@Zivilin]

Star Wars itself was influenced by the french comic Valérian and Laureline.

[@misternegative4918]

I always just find it so weird when things try to copy an archetype or just a certain part of a story. I thought Divergent did the “Katniss” archetype well and that it made sense, because of that characters situations. A lot of these just try to take a certain aspect of a story and force it to fit with a story. The live action Avatar show has said it’s shooting for Game of Thrones fans, when it shouldn’t, the show is already a blueprint there’s no reason to force the story to be something it isn’t.

[@Hellsing7747]

To tell the truth I like the last two seasons of GOT even if thoae seasons were a massive step down compared to the early seasons. And for me the books are so amazingly awesome that I think I might never re-watch. However, overall "game of thrones" is an excellent t series. But fans only like to remember the bad. It's very unfortunate.

[@berengustav7714]

How do we copy LOTR in an intresting way,so that it feels like a subversion of generic epic fantasy while still using parts from LOTR? Here's things that other stories almost never do but LOTR: have the Dark Lord never come out for a boss battle. Have the wizard and warrior-of special-lineage-with-awesome-sword be sidelined while the real heros are short everybodies, the normal hero never gains powers. Have the hero fail and need outside interference."Throw it in!" "No,the Ring is mine!"

[@MrRosebeing]

When I write I just write to express myself. I never try to emulate anyone or anything. I don't care if it leads to success (what are the chances of that happening?), I just do it for myself.

[@myrojyn]

I want to say this applies to the Halo show on Paramount however it's so much divorced from the actual source that I think the script was tacked on to a familiar franchise in order to get the greenlight

[@thelateescapist8266]

I like this video and agree with the general premise, but I couldn't help but notice the irony of holding up The Hunger Games as an example of an "original" story that's been copied when it is in fact one of the biggest and most successful "copycats" in the history of popular media. I know Suzanne Collins has denied it, but the Hunger Games(2008) is a pretty obvious takeoff of the Japanese novel Battle Royale (1999) by Koushun Takami and or the 2000 movie based on his novel, where in the Japanese government institutes an annual death match between a group of teenagers selected by randomized lottery, in order to quail rising civil unrest and and assert their power over the general population.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

9:55 wait wait wait how do you mean barely 30 people died? They massacred Robb's soldiers that were outside of the castle

[@destro6971]

Just putting out there to get everyone’s hopes raised for no reason: my own personal conspiracy theory, based solely on the fact Joe Abercrombie knows GRRM and nothing else, is that George is prepping Joe to take over ASOIAF for him either after he passes or to allow him to retire, a la Sanderson/Jordan with Wheel of Time but before it’s too late to pass the torch personally. Wishes on the wind, most likely.

[@Beard_Hood]

I was just joking about this the other day. Said we need to be very vocal about what we want and don't want b/c studio executives are too dumb to figure it out for themselves, and writers too unskilled and arrogant to just translate it from one medium to another.

[@patrickmuller7334]

Isn't the same thing also true off too many adaptions? Turning Watchmen into a film about actual heroes. Turning Jane Austen novels into mere romance movies. Turning Hercules Poirot into a frigging action hero. And sometimes long running series forget what they were saying before. The Battlestar Galactica reboot from the 00s were started as a direct antithesis to what Star Trek was doing at the time. Events had consequences, if you ran out of fuel one episode, you were still out of fuel the next one. And then the writing went off script, with mysterious forces guiding events through dreams, visions and completely unexplained plot twists. You could say the same about the MCU. Early on, the makers learned that they could center a movie on a tree and a talking racoon and people would gobble it up. They learned that every new character was met with jubilation. What they didn't learn was how much of their success rode on likeable characters, good writing and the connective tissue. The audiences loved the characters and got invested in the characters and knew they'd see these characters again every few years. Then the MCU blew up, we got bad movies, boring stories, after credit scenes that teased dozens of new characters nobody cared about while years went by without our favorite characters having a single memorable appearance. I guess I could go on, but I'm not sure I have to. I think far too many people working in the entertainment sector completely miss the point, all the time. But it's big business, a lot of money is involved, so the industry keeps churning out content, whether it works or not. Because like all of us, most of them are just people with bills to pay. People that see J.J. Abraham selling movie tickets, so they give him the licenses to butcher Star Trek and Star Wars in turn. The way I see it these days, I try to enjoy the rare diamonds and ignore the trash clogging up the channels. And these are still out there, if you know where to look. Sometimes it's anime, like Frieren, sometimes obscure gems from 60 years ago, like the British TV show Sandbaggers and the black and white comic book For Queen and Country it inspired. Sometimes it's a hommage novel capturing the spirit of the original, like Jane Fairfax. And sometimes it's just a once off college theater production that really stays with us for years. Not sure where I'm going with this, but I think I feel that you're right, but you're just scratching the surface.

[@joefo458]

Great insights all around.💯

[@ianhruday9584]

I 100% agree, especially about ASOIAF. Whenever George RR Martin does an interview, it's very clear that his writing tries to be honest - both about characters and about war. He doesn't write simple characters because people aren't simple, and he depicts brutal violence because war is brutal. He doesn't fall into the trap of glorifying brutality or the trope of writing a villain with a sympathetic backstory. Both his Heroes and his villains are deeply flawed human beings trying to make difficult choices in a world that isn't fair. I want to compare George RR Martin's writing advice with Joss whedon's advice. George RR Martin said that "the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself." Joss Whedon said that "when you give characters pain they immediately become more interesting." I would say that where is Joss Whedon has understood something superficial, George RR Martin has understood something profound. That internal conflict is painful, but the pain itself isn't what's interesting. It's why so much of Joss whedon's writing becomes formulaic. Many of his characters are just Charlie Brown with the football. Martin's characters have ordinary loves, ambitions, and shames, and they are changed by their experiences. In contrast, Joss whedon's characters are far more static; they tend to circle the Drain with the same angst. None of this is to say that Joss Whedon is a bad writer; he isn't. What I am saying is that in this case, Joss Whedon has a superficial recognition of a much deeper truth about writing.

[@CoolAsianGuy]

But people are simple. Otherwise the world would've been an ideal world

[@timangelis8999]

Another great video!!!! Thank you!!!!

[@casualcraftman1599]

Being grim does not automatically make a story good and more realistic. Yes, shitty things happens in real life but it's more realistic when people try to make things less shitty instead of just brooding about it. Tone is an important tool to a story that should be used to elevate other parts of the story instead of being the main focus. 1984 wasn't a good story because it was grim, it was a good story commentating on fascism and it's dark tone helped it's commentary on the corruption of fascism. BoJack Horseman wasn't good because it was grim, BoJack Horseman was a good deconstruction on sitcoms and it's grim moments were effective because it was deconstructing the flaws of sitcoms and commentating on toxicity of Hollywood. A Song of Ice and Fire and Watchmen have horrible influences because of people thinking it was only good for being grim.

[@andrewhanson405]

Great video! Thanks for sharing

[@kyle4693]

I know time and thought goes into how you present yourself in your videos so allow me to say that jacket is awesome. Cool style. Great look. Sorry for not commenting on the content of the video but the jacket is a standout. Wait, is it a shirt jacket?

[@ethanbrown4167]

very excited to see this video

[@DmGray]

On the "I'm not like other girls" "pick me" point. It has always been ironic to me that so many women who consider themselves progressive or tolerant fall back onto such ideas. I see it a lot with conservative women believing more liberal women are not "womaning right" and that they are superior women, vs many more liberal women thinking that ANY perceived conservative femininity is oppressive or evil, and that THEY are the superior women. And both teams like to throw men under the bus :P Also amuses me when "pick me" is used as an insult when a woman is displaying traits seen as attractive to men, and these qualities are almost universally positive (beauty, kindness, generosity) rather than its (I believe) intended use... for women putting other women down to impress men... which is damn close to what MANY women using the insult "pick me" are doing. The MC in my own (still unfinished) novel is a bit of a pick me. By design. Surrounded by men she admires, she uses her femininity to push boundaries on societal expectations, but holds other women in contempt for being too soft and not interested in the "fun boyish" stuff. Hoping that a reader will pick up on this being a character flaw she will eventually overcome, bc it's a flaw I think many young women demonstrate in one way or another (just as young men often have common identity/personal issues. Almost like it's fairly universal human experience ;)... none of us really know what the hell we're doing!) I personally think a good example of misunderstanding why a character works is shown in the sequel SW trilogy. Leia works. She's a badass, she's grouchy, she's fed up of men telling her what to do and is not afraid to put them in their place. And it all makes sense. She's a politician within an authoritarian and certainly patriarchal Empire. Her experience justifies her personality. She DESERVES to be a girlboss who gets a little bitchy a little too easily. They tried to give Rey some of those moments... but to me they do NOT work bc she'd have NO WAY to have developed those attitudes. She's an orphan forced to survive and become self reliant. So, fierce independence and not understanding why other people might rely on others makes sense. But making it about *gender* does not. Why would she make that assumption? We see NO indication that Rey has ever been offered help for being a girl. And there would be no reason for her to refuse it! It's a girlboss moment from somebody that would have *no* reason to make that set of assumptions. And moments LIKE that build the sequels into a disappointment. All of the right elements, but not used well. Squandered opportunities throughout.

[@BatPage27]

Awesome Video 🔥🔥Thanks for sharing 🤘🦇🤘

[@s0rd3z]

I feel like a lot of these points is what happened to the end of GoT, why WoT is mediocre, why RoP is just kind of a complete flop etc. etc. Couldn't agree more with most of this.

[@darkwingduck9589]

I wish you would have touched on the fact that current show runners don't simply misunderstand the source material. Current runners seem to loathe it. Not having read any of the source material...is either mandatory or at least a bonus.

[@sebrussell]

I sometimes wonder if they resent the current landscape of Hollywood. It seems so hard for original concepts to get made nowadays, so it must be annoying as a writer to not be able to just make your own stuff and being kinda forced by higher-ups to just make adaptations or reboots. I imagine there's an element of jealousy of the creators they are forced to adapt, that they grew in an environment that favoured originality (or at least seemed to in hindsight).

[@journeyjulie3973]

I really enjoy fantasy, but I can’t handle any kind of SA (with details), it sends me spiraling and gives me nightmares. I absolutely hate it, I feel like so much fantasy has been spoiled by trying to copycat SOIAF (which I’ve never read because I know what to expect), I will be happily reading a book and get shockingly and unexpectedly slapped in the face with an SA scene that ruins the rest of my week. I’ve started googling stories now before I read to avoid this. But really, not all of us want second hand trauma. You can passingly mention that someone has a history of SA without being graphic about it.

[@PrinceOfGenovia]

Top tier booktuber 👏👏👏

[@ezekielmontoya4418]

Completely agree with nearly everything here, except the Hobbit storyline take… You could argue that too much time was spent there, but it’s our way of learning more about the mysterious “shooting star” that came crashing down at the beginning, and *SPOILERS* it is also showing us how Gandalf (The being who fell to the earth) first becomes acquainted with the hobbits in the first place. That’s what’s difficult with judging a series by elements it adds in the first season. There is the risk of too many loose ends that need to be fleshed out in future seasons, but I think most people who know LOTR saw it was Gandalf right away, and it was, for me, an interesting side-plot that I can’t wait to see develop in future seasons.

[@agnishom]

Can I purchase books in the form of epub files from campfire? Are they DRM free? (I hope!)

[@keanucooper2103]

What state are you from? I love your accent!

[@Bookborn]

lmao I'm from Oregon so I just have the West Coast accent

[@ryan.noakes]

You always need that person looking at your work asking how you're going to earn that big moment you want to include. This topic could easily have been a 3 hour video of citing examples of where someone clearly said "I want *this* big moment!" but didn't put any thought into how they were going to earn that moment in their storytelling. It's a real shame. (For the record, you clearly put thought into your videos. 😜)