😡 F1's forgotten FEUD with IndyCar

F1 and IndyCar could hardly be considered rivals today, but that wasn't the case in the early 1990s, when Bernie Ecclestone took shots at the US series after Nigel Mansell left F1 to race Stateside instead
#f1 #indycar #1990s #indy #indy500 #nigelmansell #formula1 #formulaone #f1history #classicf1 #indianapolis #bernieecclestone #grandprix #therace

[@blazi2293]

"He assumed Bernie has been grossly misquoted" Nah it's just the average batshit insane take by Bernie 😂

[@djoetma]

Not crazy, just BS spouted out based on financial motives...

[@seafood1471]

Bernie’s entire legal strategy is to say enough insane and contradictory things that no one could take anything he said seriously so he always retained plausible deniability

[@kurtsudheim825]

How many tasks weren't

[@FormulaProg]

He was right

[@jama211]

Well said, he was insane

[@bluemutt9964]

"You're not a real sport" "Alright race us" "Sorry that's too dangerous for us"

[@Bolt_theG35]

😂 so true smh

[@stephenhoward8433]

Only Americans can watch oval racing 😂 shows how simple ur minds are 😂😂😂

[@AC_702]

Exactly! People don't realize that CART/IndyCar was viewed as a huge threat to F1, so Bernie encouraged Tony George to bust up IndyCar

[@g00ndoo]

​@@stephenhoward8433If you watched more forms of motorsports you'd know there are certain honed skillsets that are needed in each discipline that are not necessarily transferrable to other disciplines. Your statement reflects more on yourself.

[@freezy8593]

@@stephenhoward8433Shows how dim-witted Europe is. 2 can play at this game, punk!

[@TeganCantEven]

It cannot be overstated how popular IndyCar was in the early 90s

[@kasimahmed8858]

Tell me more. I wasn't even born then.

[@TeganCantEven]

@@kasimahmed8858 I was just a wee lass, but IndyCar was a huge deal. The most ubiquitous names in Motorsport at the time were IndyCar drivers. There were tons of b2c sponsors, and it cost twice as much to run a 16 race IndyCar season as it did to run a 30 race Winston Cup season. Times change. 💔

[@doug-core8850]

It just doesn't have the same feeling now for me as an Australian that only saw them at the indy gold coast race. I think its funny that alot of really well marketed categories dont have a good solid racing package but to me, even today indycar is like the opposite, some of the best racing on earth yet dreadfully marketed

[@smithy2]

​@doug-core8850 Gold coast was one of the best tracks too, the full original track layout, not today's shortened version

[@user-kj7nw4zg1y]

​​@@doug-core8850what's up with you "Aussies" always having to announce where you're from? I'm proud of my country too but I don't go showing it off all the time ya'll are weird 😂 love you all too but it just gets a little strange with the chants and always having to bring it up

[@sdx3918]

Then there was Nico Hulkenberg who won Lemans overall on a one race deal with the Porsche LMP1 team. After this victory more drivers wanted to give it a go such as Button, Dani Ric, and Alonso. Iirc, Bernie didn't like this so he scheduled a GP that took place at the same weekend as lemans which prevented that possibility..

[@zavodszkiabel7919]

That didn't stop Alonso.

[@mcrichton46]

There was a time when half the F1 field also raced sports cars and the Indy 500. How times have changed

[@tomast9034]

when steward was still racing it was normal to do an f1 race, fly to usa for a round of can-am, back to uk for a btcc ...some even did equivalent of todays moto gp....and also 24h of leman was a must.....

[@steve5x565]

Le Mans

[@Thot-Slayer-420]

@@zavodszkiabel7919 nothing stops alonso

[@_bstr_ct1832]

Ah, yes. F1, the real sport that would never use artificial ways of closing up the field.

[@mr8I7]

Not in the good old days son.

[@mainantagonist]

Not in the era of this video, bro.

[@dinocadet77]

Yeah it is interesting that F1 became an american sport. This safety era sure is something.

[@core_russell3869]

Cough 2021 cough

[@Silent_Shadow]

Dubai 2021

[@kablerain9130]

Man those Cart cars looked great.

[@RedLP5000S]

I especially liked the Target cars.

[@mcrichton46]

Funny how much larger they were compared to F1 cars of the time. Now, the IndyCars are noticeably smaller than the F1 school buses

[@Dindyracer]

Still my favorite indycar. I loved their sound so much I used to mimic them around my house as a kid lol. I still can actually, if I see a couple of old clips first. 😅

[@jondrizzle4554]

Bring back 90s motorsport It's utter shite now

[@seanscorsonellibean2153]

They had a really mean look back then. I was a huge fan back then. Now the cars just don't look as "evil" 😈

[@azaz911c]

The CART / IRL split was the worst thing to happen to open wheel racing. In the mid 1990s to early 2000s, CART was a fantastically entertaining series with beautiful cars, close racing, a mix of legendary old drivers and young drivers, super speedways and road courses and street circuits, an international driver roster, and a North American base of venues with a few international drives.

[@kasimahmed8858]

What do you think is stopping indycar from regaining that level now? And how did indycar become so popular back then?

[@azaz911c]

@@kasimahmed8858 Mansell raised the international profile when he left F1 as the reigning champion for CART. F1's current popularity would be the impediment

[@repetitivemotion]

@@kasimahmed8858I was thick in the middle of it at the time as I lived close to no less than 5 different races in a season. First, you had very popular drivers with long histories from some of American racing’s best years. Men like AJ Foyt, Mario Andretti and Al Unser Sr. Second, you had a variety of Chassis and engines, and even the odd one-off experimental car. Third, you had ABC Sports television and Speed Vision, which brought high quality broadcast programming to fans for free(in the case of ABC). Today you have none of that. There are few Star-quality drivers ( none in fact). The cars are all identical spec Chassis. There are only 2 different engines. And the broadcast team that does the races is terrible.

[@tonylombardi4661]

American open wheel racing was huge, the series that would eventually become CART. I've been a fan since the 70's when USAC was involved. The races were all ovals, and there was resistance for street/road courses. Tony George with IRL had the Indy 500 and CART had the big names/teams and money. That first IRL/Indy 500 was embarrassing. CART becomes Champ Car but eventually devolved. All involved nearly destroyed American wheel racing. NASCAR exploded I'm popularity. Thank goodness the Hullman-George family sold IMS to Roger Penske in 2019. The Indy 500 is still a monster event, but the series as a whole will not reach its CART popularity. There is too much damage and many entertainment options available for the paying public.

[@steveb9713]

@@kasimahmed8858ugly cars nowadays, back then the cars were beautiful

[@samthompson7821]

"you aren't a real sport" "ok come try it" "nah g that's too dangerous"

[@JamesPicksley]

Ecclestone is a twat, but he was correct. 2005 US GP...

[@andrewboguszracing]

@@JamesPicksley still a road course

[@graysonlaugher3143]

@@JamesPicksley that happened because Michelin didn't have tires that could hold up to the oval turns but Bridgestone did so only the Bridgestone teams ran

[@Rubenlagriculture]

As an f1 fan I think IndyCar is quite interesting. I like it

[@ThmsDouglas]

It's a great series truly and that's from a F1 fan.

[@sirsancti5504]

Being a "spec/closed" series, kinda kills it for me. On the other side, it relies more on pilots, less on car.

[@deevizm8035]

@@sirsancti5504that’s what I like about it. All about set up and how u drive the set up. Nobody has power advantages, etc which makes for better racing imo.

[@realAmosKoech]

​@@ThmsDouglas me too.I hope F1 may introduce circle/oval stadium circuit in future.🤔🏎️🏟️🏎️🏎️👍👌🏁🏁🏁

[@jjmav9]

@@sirsancti5504Why is that, of all things, why you don’t like it? I can understand ovals being too hard to understand, driver skill arguably not being on par with F1, or it even just being American, but that it’s a “spec” series? It doesn’t allow a team to be overly dominate. It creates competition, which makes the product better. It shows which drivers are the most skilled on a race-to-race basis. It shows which teams find ways to make cars better than other teams. To me that shows you enjoy one or two drivers/teams dominating a series, and as a motorsports fan, that’s kind of sad.

[@donaldfedosiuk1638]

For a brief shining moment, CART was truly a premier, world-class series. IRL -- not so much. Thanks a lot, Tony George.

[@Gatotsu2009]

CART was special but in the end it couldnt compete with IRL. It was a shame because top CART drivers were better than the IRL ones.

[@Sinton1]

​@@Gatotsu2009CART couldn't compete because IRL had the indy 500. still is the same way today the 500 funds the whole series

[@Gias1]

Circuit of the America:, lap record IndyCar 1:48.90, lap record Formula 1 1:36.139 Do I need to say more? They're 12 seconds a lap slower.

[@JohnDoes620]

@@Gias1CART cars in 1999 were faster than Indy cars of this past season… and COTA didn’t exist in their day. While still slower than F1 of the same era those cars were a beast, v8 turbo with a sequential transmission where you actually have to take your hand off the wheel. And less downforce than an f1 car. Lap times aside those were brutal machines and hold a special place in history

[@mintgoldheart6126]

​@@Gias1 way to show your lack of braincells

[@canemreakay8941]

In 90's both F1 and Cart were golden age

[@jkim6200]

2.65 liter turbocharged methanol burning v-8s like the Cosworth DFX and Illmor were monsters.

[@jkim6200]

I remember hearing someone referring to them as Top Fuel IndyCars.

[@singleproppilot]

A friend of mine bought a mid-90s Indy Lola that had been run by Patrick Racing. It was a derelict, as it had been sitting outside for many years with almost everything valuable removed. It seemed like a cool thing to own until he found out that it would cost $50k for an engine and another $50k for the engine controls and support equipment needed to start it up. And that’s not counting what it would cost for tires, fuel, and maintenance to take it to a track day. Last I heard it was sitting in pieces in his garage. Yes, they were beastly machines.

[@SkunkworksProps]

The coverage of Indycar in the 90s was great, really enjoyed watching it.

[@PeterKKraus]

I had the Nigel Mansell Indy Car game for Sega Genesis back in my 30's lol. Did anyone else here play it?

[@alanwiggins47]

That brings back memories

[@IR123]

Oh yeah, definitely lol

[@smithy2]

Played it, loved it, still have it 👍 I still have the tamiya Model of that car too

[@PeterKKraus]

@@smithy2 I went through like 4 Genesis consoles in 10 years and that was it for ever playing them again. That and NHL 96 or 97 were mostly what I played.

[@smithy2]

@PeterKKraus wow 4 far out, I still have my original, it's broken at the moment, some capacitor issue

[@billcurnew6020]

Indy racing didn't "split in half". One man, Tony George, the owner of the IndianapolisMotor Speedway, left and formed his own series. None of the existinfg teams left CART. They continued to race, as usual, but had to make do without their marquee event, the Indy 500. Eventually, a couple of teams went to race at Indianapolis as this was hugely important to their sponsors. They dominated the event from then forward, but the removal of Indy from the CART schedule proved too big a blow for that series to survive. This whole affair soured fans and even though the racing is still excellent, it's been a slow climb to return the fan base. The "split" was one man vs everyone else, and the end result was bad for everyone.

[@dautolover]

I mean, yes, though the split was based on the notion that the big teams were making participation by smaller teams impossible. Say what you will about any underlying intentions, but many people bought into the underdog nature that fueled the split. It also didn't help that CART was powerless in regards to the Indy 500. At the end, like you said, no one won. And yeah. TG's IRL wanted less road courses and more ovals, yet after it "beat" CART, there are more road courses than ovals in the typical Indy calendar.

[@shiftfocus1]

Either way, it was a silly, petulant battle that worked to no one’s benefit.

[@RockSolitude]

so it did split then

[@99dndd]

and who convinced Tony George to split by promising an F1 race if he built a road course at Indy? Bernie Ecclestone.

[@Pootisbird01]

That sounds literally exactly like splitting in half

[@casscroute8706]

Ecclestone is also the reason the WSC (WEC's father who existed since the 50s) ended

[@Moregano]

An early 90s f1 vs indy race would have been awesome

[@MattinhoGG]

Yeah. F1 would have likely won on a road course by a fair distance, Indy would win on the oval.. A street course again F1 would likely win it. Senna in an F1 car vs Mansell in an Indycar, best of 3... Would have been legendary

[@KayJblue]

CART was a beautiful series. Modern Indycar is great but pales in comparison

[@givensudeh]

I’ll only watch IndyCar once we get another 500 at Michigan

[@kylemitchell2052]

He effectively did similar things to sports car racing and Le Mans as well. There were plenty of times where Le Mans was viewed as the pinnacle. Now people barely remember it's still running even though this year will have the biggest class of Top class prototypes in 30 years.

[@PiousMoltar]

"Yellows to close the field up" Bruh has he never heard of an F1 safety car

[@baldyisthegaminggrandad6177]

The safety car is only used so that Marshalls etc can clear the track outfield of either damaged cars or occasionally drivers from their car.

[@maximiliankaiser6862]

@@baldyisthegaminggrandad6177 still has the exact same effect, that the field will stack up, so what is the point of that

[@baldyisthegaminggrandad6177]

@@maximiliankaiser6862 Not every incident is a full course yellow in F1. Most are just in the vicinity of the incident, the only time it's full course or safety car is when there's every machinery travelling the circuit and it's a very rare occurrence.

[@sirsancti5504]

When was safety cars full deployed as q rule? Not in the glorious days of F1.

[@baldyisthegaminggrandad6177]

​@sirsancti5504 so you've never seen flat bed trucks driving from the pit lane or a break in the barriers to get to a damaged car. Cranes haven't always been placed at certain points around the track.

[@freeski919]

A head to head Indy-vs-F1 race would be epic. As for road course vs oval, that's simple. Repair the oval at Monza, and race the full course like they used to.

[@AidanMillward]

They did that before and the Americans won. Only because they used USAC spec oval cars and the F1 teams brought their normal cars.

[@ntl9974]

​@@AidanMillwardWhen?

[@lukew6725]

Just look at the lap times from tracks that they've both raced on, Indycar isn't even close to F1.

[@freeski919]

@@lukew6725 that's why it would have to be a split between a Grand Prix circuit and an oval. F1 cars have better cornering speeds, while IndyCar has a much higher top speed, especially on an oval. F1 cars would open up a gap going through the braking and acceleration zones of the GP portion of the circuit. Indy would claw that back during a flat out oval section.

[@joaquingonzalez834]

​​@@ntl9974Race of Two Worlds, or 500 Miles of Monza

[@Flu_Tang_Clan]

CART in the 90s was some of the best racing.

[@danigonzalez4299]

So many mistakes here. Bernie bought Nigel's contract for 1994 and 1995. BUT let Nigel end up 1994 at Indy. Nigel Mansell 1992 F1 World Champion was NOT retained in F1 for 1993 so he went to Indycar. Won the Title as Rookie, Won his first race at Indycar at Surfers Paradise, and almost won his first Indy 500 (americans played yellows to not have him winning it) aaand suffered a massive crash at an oval that he overcome not easily but to come back and claim the title. So having Nigel Mansell back in F1 for 1994 was massive. Only man to hold BOTH championships at the same time.

[@darkmatter6714]

You forgot to mention that Mansell won the championship in his rookie season, despite having never raced on an oval before.

[@simplygregsterev]

And some major accidents on them

[@darkmatter6714]

@@simplygregsterev and winning 4 of them and getting pole on 3 of them, and getting fastest lap on 3 of them

[@smithy2]

'92 f1 champ and '93 indy champ, what a coup

[@simplygregsterev]

@@smithy2 4 f1 starts in 94.. Including one win from P1.. legend

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

I saw him race in the Michigan 500. I remember being surprised, cause I knew him from F1, but I didn’t know he’d come over to Indy Car.

[@stuntslikeeveryday]

Bernie has destroyed many motorsport disciplines, like when Group C was becoming a threat as well. Actually he had a horrible influence on motorsport.

[@drmaulana2600]

True, had he still run F1 till at least '19 F1 wouldn't be as big as it's currently thanks to his stubbornness on sticking to cable and not adopting to online audience.

[@lucasrabelo937]

He basically destroyed Group C from the inside by using his influence inside the FIA

[@GoomDuy28]

Killing WEC, WSC, Group C is the biggest Bernie sins for me, he even want to remove LeMans from WSC calendar Bernie is absolute menace

[@ZontarDow]

Wouldn't have been the first time the two raced together in an exhibition race, also wasn't the first time F1 considered CART a threat given they nearly formed an all oval open wheel world championship to go directly head to head with it. At the time CART was a real threat to F1 given it was an all privateer development series that was less then half the cost of F1 while producing better racing and a more well rounded schedule of race disciplines. Tragic the split happened.

[@djoetma]

CART was never a threat to F1 for the reasons you mention. No big manufacturer, cheap, not on the same level tech-wise. Also, it wasn't world wide. The only threat F1 had was a plan certain manufacturers had (all of them apart from Ferrari) to leave the series and start their own. But they were able to shut that down.

[@ZontarDow]

@@djoetma Mercedes, Ford and Honda where CART's engine suppliers at the time, not exactly small players, and the threat F1 saw from CART wasn't exactly small, the plan to possibly make an all oval open wheel world championship to complete with it wasn't some secret, the largest reason it didn't happen was because IMS said "no" when they'd have been a critical track to get on board with the idea for it to work. Bernie didn't understand Tony with that proposal given that was the very thing he was trying to avoid when he created the IRL.

[@djoetma]

@@ZontarDow I mean they didn't have factory teams. Obviously the engines were from big manufacturers. I wanted CART to be big though. They did try to bring it to the international audiences and even had races overseas. But most F1 fans don't even know what CART is. Indycar they only know the existence of....

[@ZontarDow]

@@djoetma That's because CART hasn't been a thing in 16 years, no one back when it was around didn't know about it due to it being a reliable source of F1 drivers at a time no other series was making them.

[@KA._.144]

what makes CART and indycar different? it seems they were similar type of cars(openwheel with big front/ rear wings) racing on similar/same tracks, its cheaper than f1, while being a spec series.

[@ent.8979]

Even Ayrton Senna said F1 is a dirty political sport. So who am i to disagree with the biggest racer of all times

[@DuckReach432]

I loved seeing "Indy on the Gold Coast" in Australia. Seeing great teams like Newman-Haas on road courses around the world was great. It was very good racing. Then the rights-holder to the Indianapolis speedway said, no Indy 500 for you until you go back to being a domestic oval-track series. Which it did, losing a global audience in the process.

[@George246-zg1zw]

What global audience are you talk about

[@DuckReach432]

The one F1 has. The two series could have existed in parallel. @@George246-zg1zw

[@drmaulana2600]

​@@George246-zg1zwyou're new or clueless or what? CART use to race in Japan and Australia, CART use to big before '94 split. Enough with this F1 superior bullshit

[@George246-zg1zw]

@@drmaulana2600 so now that was before 94 you say. That was 30 years ago. Are they still racing there now???????

[@1sttvbn]

Last Indy 500 I went to was 1994. Seated at turn four. The year before ‘93 Fitipaldi won, and wouldn’t drink the milk, because he owned orange groves. Toward the end of the ‘94 race, Emo lost control and hit the wall, destroying his Penske, which brought a huge roar of approval from the entire Indy crowd. Those were exciting times.

[@SugeLight187]

The CART era of Indy Car is grossly underrated!

[@jessereddragon7617]

CART was the pinnacle of INDY car

[@d.e.b.b5788]

You should have lived in the 1960's; such varied cars, up to when Dan Gurney challenged ANY F1 car to race against his eagles. McLaren, too, ran at Indy and F1 at the same time. Terrific racing. Oh, and the Can-AM; true unlimited racers.

[@chrisdavidson911]

Bernie: "Indycar uses too many of the same parts" Also Bernie: "you will use these tyres and sizes" "you will use this engine size and cylinders" "You won't have active suspension" and a whole bunch of other stuff.

[@AidanMillward]

FIA decided that, not Bernie.

[@PaulRidgeway-h7l]

1990’s CART, F1 l, IMSA, and WSC were truly epic and the pinnacle of racing. There will never be a period of wide open racing and innovation like those years.

[@brandondecker3355]

The irony of comparing in the car to wrestling and F one to boxing one every single F1 car is in its own weight class and in the cars are all in the same class. It’s just too rich. Well… Bernie Ecclestone being that rich I guess it demanded.

[@devonsmith6980]

Here from Indy, to say Hi Come see the 500

[@djoetma]

I still think some form of cross class event needs to happen. I really want to see what the F1 cars would do on an oval. Doesn't have to count for the championship and maybe you can open up the rules so that the cars can run on a higher top speed. People will watch it so promoting it and making money shouldn't be a problem. Also, invite Super Formula.

[@weallfollowmanutd]

The major issue now is that F1 cars are on a different planet in terms of pace. Back then, the two series were not night and day in pace between each other.

[@Cinnabutterondemrolls]

@@weallfollowmanutd In a different class in terms of pace on road courses on an oval would be different even if f1 ran a oval spec car

[@ThatwasJuli]

Indycar would be faster cause the current F1 cars are way too draggy for that.

[@djoetma]

@@weallfollowmanutd Back then the difference was huge as well. F1 has gotten faster, but back then, there was no limit on testing, and very little limitations on downforce. Those 3 liter V10's and V12's would do quite well on the ovals. The modern cars will probably not do well on an oval since they are 1.5 V6's and the cars are massive with a lot of drag. So I'm assuming the IndyCar will be faster.

[@PeterKKraus]

Only Bridgestone/Firestone and Goodyear can handle ovals and Super Formula cars only have 550 hp engines. F2 are 650, Indy Cars are 750-800 and F1 around -1000 hp.

[@MichaelRoy-hc3lz]

When it was CART it was a true rival series, l enjoyed following it nearly as much as F1. Then Tony George f****d it all up and now it's a spec series where several F1 wannabes or F1 has beens race. It's a shame really. Juan Montoya, Christiano DeMota and Jacques Villineuv plus others came from CART

[@hfr8343]

Indycar has always been great to me but back in the day it was such a fantastic sport. Al Jr. and Rick Mears were my favorites

[@TheJudge2017]

Don't see Indy car drivers winning 19/21 in a season. Rather watch Indy

[@xuanbachpham9752]

If you don't like that, things is better in this season of F1. Oscar Piastri just have won last GP.

[@marcpaola1371]

Bernie also played a major role in tbe IRL/CART split, he heavily advised and influenced Tony George, thats also how f1 ended up racing at Indianapolis

[@SRFDriver]

I raced in the Sports Renault (look it up) undercard race at the Detroit F1 GP in 1984 or 1985. It was the track that ran along the waterfront around Cobo Hall (pre-Belle Isle). Indy Cars raced the exact same track layout a few months later and were 10 seconds PER LAP slower than the F1 cars around the identical track. FYI, Keke Rosberg won it.

[@robertmortimer4621]

As an F1 fan I have to say I love Indycars and often find the racing is better

[@eternal_trashero]

Indycar produces some of the best racing in the world. Unlike Formula 1, at thd beginning of a season it's a guessing game of who will challenge that season and every race has the chance of having a different winner.

[@sanidhyakumar5816]

but ovals are shit

[@princemay73]

Well, it’s similar in karting, Formula E, F3, F2 but it doesn’t mean they are still worth watching over F1. And many don’t.

[@PeterKKraus]

F1 is 1000 hp and Indy Car is 750-800 but lighter. The average lap times at Austin by Indy Cars are around 7 or 8 seconds slower. That 1000 hp makes for better acceleration. Indy Cars run continuous laps at an average of 230 mph at large ovals,, something I do not believe F1 cars could handle, especially with Pirelli tires.

[@salkdhfpoahergpoahre1534]

@@PeterKKraus Those Austin times are skewed by the fact they let them run wide at the penultimate corner.

[@PeterKKraus]

@@salkdhfpoahergpoahre1534 F1 cars?

[@dool1002]

Lol saying oval were too dangerous after his comment that it wasn't a real sport...😂

[@didothecat9941]

F1 doing a singular oval race per year would be insane

[@DrCrunkMusic]

I miss indy car, it was big aero, lightweight, big power by with a balanced field. Yes the oval isnt complex but it was exciting. We ran a calendar race here at Rockingham in the UK for a few years after the split and it was a fantastic track side spectator sport as is NASCAR and the European version Ascar

[@MetallicksFin1]

We see clearly that Indycar drivers are very skilled because all of their cars are very similar, and even F1 drivers have a hard time winning those races. It would make sense if Formula 1 would hire more Indycar drivers and vice versa.

[@AndyHack10]

Williams signing Prost for 1993 was disrespectful towards Mansell and in hindsight proved to be the first of three strikes that cost them Adrian Newey and therefore the chance to ever be really competitive again. Mansell was the highest paid british sportsman at the time and enjoyed huge fame. Losing him to Indycar was one of the worst things that could happen, especially since he seemed to age like fine wine and get better and better. He's still the last driver to win a GP in his 40s, which was only his 4th race back in 1994. What many people still don't know, Mansell signed a deal with Williams for 1995, which of course Frank Williams dropped. That was the second strike, with dropping Hill in favour of Frentzen being the third and final.

[@simbamarz5677]

Frank had no respect for drivers which he called the organic component of a race car

[@AndyHack10]

@@simbamarz5677 He paid the price for that not too long after. If it wasn't for BMW's superior engines in the early 2000s, Williams would've never been in for race wins again. I liked Williams, but their way of dealing with their drivers and most important members of the design team wasn't the right way.

[@gofigure84]

The reality is IndyCar is more entertaining at least now because the racing is tighter. It's more about team race strategy and driver than development. If F1 today raced as close as IndyCar and from week to week you didn't expect who would win how much better would it be?

[@SocialAutism]

It's finally starting to recover.

[@wings9925]

Mansel didn't quit F1. The Williams team refused to meet his salary negotiation demands (not the last time they did this) and he was lured away to Indycar because it was too late in the F1 season to secure a drive with other top teams.

[@will4may175]

I watched Mansell in his two year of Indy, first year he was awesome, some of the moves he did was soon being copied by other drivers. As for Bernie, could never stand the bloke, he was all about money and didn't care what he destroyed in that quest to get it.

[@wunkskorks2623]

Me thinks that most commentators, and the “pundits” of this sport weren’t around when this happened. Mansell wanted out of a “landlocked” sport. The powers that be made it a tech-race and mansell wanted to test himself against the best drivers in the world, not engineers. He knew where the talent and danger were and he went towards it. F1 is an engineer’s game with occasional, generational talent. Indy is a racer’s game with, very often, generational talent.

[@largol33t12]

I seriously believe Nigel's mistake was not staying long enough in IndyCars. IF he had waited until 1995 and gotten a Reynard, he would certainly have been competitive. The cars had improved to the point where they were able to take on Penske and snatch the title from them courtesy of Jacques Villeneuve. Then when Jacques left for F1, he could have offered to move to Team Greeen...

[@youerny]

Truth was that that year we exchanged champions and the outcome spoke for itself. By the we th Indy series up to the split was very entertaining and I loved fittipaldi Andretti and the 236 Mph laps. Today both f1 and Indy have become wrestling. PS. Never cross the road with Bernie

[@mik8352]

At Montreal, F1 were doing 1:12:680 and Indy cars were over 6 seconds slower... (I forgot the year, but surely someone knows)

[@repairdrive]

Tony George burned down Indycar with that spilt. 😡😡😡

[@peterf.4268]

The demise of IndyCar was tragic. Penske pleaded & pleaded with the rule-makers to close a loophole that allowed larger displacement for pushrod engine designs. The rule-makers claimed it was pointless because pushrod engines wouldn't be able to Rev high enough for it to matter. Penske knew that with modern aloys they could. And when they wouldn't close the loophole he worked with Mercedes & made one. They dominated. And then (and I can't remember if was season 2 or season 3 with that style engine) they banned the engine right before the season started so Penske & a few other teams broke off to start their own series.

[@Little_Alesi]

best comment, perfect. But Nige was a machine, but the small guy made his contacts

[@user-dv1zu2fy2v]

Imagine that race

[@encinobalboa]

Indycar split was indeed a tragic day. CART stayed with the awesome 2.65L turbo V8 while Indycar went with a cheaper NA cross plane V8 which sounded like a NASCAR stocker.

[@amjan]

"You're not a real sport" because you offer all drivers an equal chance to compete. Right... F1 is a joke.

[@travenir]

yeah that's what we call a rookie series

[@patlatorres7000]

And now F-1 doesn't want Andretti Motorsport, because they might actually provide some competition -- we can't have that!

[@georgejacob3162]

F1 went to Indianapolis in the mid 2000's & we all know how well that went!

[@lukew6725]

But the engineers aren't allowed to compete, which is the point I think he was making.

[@patlatorres7000]

@@lukew6725: it's called auto racing, NOT auto engineering. The bottom line to motorsports is the competition between the drivers. There comes a point where the line needs to be drawn that engineering doesn't cross. I think back to when Michael Andretti was in F-1 and the team engineers would reduce the performance of his car remotely, as he was on course and THIS is exactly what is NOT needed in any form of motorsports.

[@boomkittyFX]

imagine when indycar split, f1 said "well at least our motorsport doesn't break apart"

[@markhansen5352]

No matter what anyone thinks IndyCar is just better racing and a lot more fun to watch!

[@checocrackserrano8608]

Mate, Indycar is going to be the new F1 In USA for the moment, lets hope it becomes international like in the past

[@BusinessHojlund]

Nope

[@sipes90]

IndyCar is real racing. So much better than F1 truthfully

[@DTfan43]

They're both real racing. Cut the BS.

[@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1]

One could say the grievances Bernie had about Indycar then is in f1 now with how many parts are shared, the budget cap and how SC/VSC/red flags are used to close the field up artificially Finally one could say the split partially happened because of Bernie because he influenced Tony George that CART was going in the wrong direction with too many foreign drivers and needed to get back to its roots hence the formation of the IRL

[@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1]

Additionally, him allegedly help funding the IRL indirectly with him giving them a race on the calendar and allegedly him actually giving money to make sure IRL won over CART Either way USA open wheel racing still hasn’t recovered from the spilt

[@Polla9203]

@@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1 Irrelevant sport outside of US anyway.

[@PeterKKraus]

The IRL was ovals only. He convinced Tony George to go the wrong direction?

[@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1]

@@PeterKKraus Yeah he did because Tony George wanted to bring back the midget cars to Indy 500 pipeline after losing the best talent in a generation Jeff Gordon to NASCAR So part of the IRL vision was real American drivers racing on ovals with loud V8 Engines, it deviated away from this eventually but that was the premise of the IRL

[@PeterKKraus]

@@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1 So Bernie helped sabotage CART... which Mario, Michael, Jacques, and Montoya came from.

[@dscffsda7390]

To be fair, ovals were pretty dangerous for F1

[@mirusvet]

Loved CART before the split.

[@richardbullwood5941]

You try to tell someone they don't compete in a real sport, but when they invite you to try, you refused because it's too dangerous. The same dangerous racing we've been doing for over a hundred years.

[@BryonLape]

I remember those days. It was epic. Thought it was the start of something great, then it all fell apart.

[@stephenoliver958]

Nigel Mansell didn’t quit, William’s sacked him the year he won the world championship, they did the same to Damon Hill, really glad they went down the pan.

[@UncIe_Drew]

Cause F1 competive seasons really shine through.

[@EngiocGames]

Who forgot it??? I sure didn't. Indycar went on to show us all how much damage a breakaway/rival series can do, well done.

[@woreoutdrummer1861]

Indy, NASCAR and F1 were all very popular in the early 90's. Indy 500 Sunday was the best day for a race fan. F1 Monaco in the morning, the Indy 500 in the afternoon and the Coke 600 in the evening. Now F1 has too many rules, NASCAR has too many gimmicks and Indy never regained it's hold after Tony George's bullshit. I still watch F1 and keep an eye on Indy but quite honestly, couldn't care less about NASCAR. A shame, really. Those were some good times.

[@CallumRSU30]

WELL LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING, BERNIE, DUDE, BROTHER, JACK!

[@moisesezequielgutierrez]

F1 is kinda mid nowadays so Indy Car, Super GT, NASCAR, and WRC are my favorite motorsports to binge anyways

[@jaiganticpooey3012]

WEC is better than all of those

[@SomeRand0mKid]

NASCAR is my favorite

[@cjmsacomments4389]

@@jaiganticpooey3012IMSA and Supercars are better than WEC

[@jaiganticpooey3012]

@@cjmsacomments4389 Not even close. WEC has better tracks, 24 hours of Le Mans and more manufacturers than IMSA and Supercars is on its last legs, try again

[@Vibe_Master_007]

​@@jaiganticpooey3012 tf is you're point? No motorsports 'better' than others. It's not even comparable as they are different from each other.

[@stevenmacdonald9619]

What? Indycar has more than recovered and is the better formula these days. I know which one I would rather watch as a spectacle. If only the U.S would stop decimating the coverage with adverts, it would be even better.

[@ncjay08]

CART at one point was threatening F1 with tv viewership.

[@redwolf1647]

In 1993 F1 cars had automatic gearboxes, traction control, active suspension, abs brakes. An indycar only had a manual H pattern gearbox with a clutch, now which was the real sport?

[@agik137]

Would be interesting to see how an F1 car would go on an oval with the correct setup etc

[@frogee8494]

The audacity to say indycar isnt a real sport is crazy. F1 is more about glamour and has less fair and more predictable racing

[@acog_quarks8753]

Exactly. I like f1, but F1 is a spectacle. Indycar is a racing series

[@Per_Johnsen]

I'm an F1 fan, basically because I'm European, and I would love to disagree with you but I can't. What you're saying is 100% true. F1 is more a constructors championship than a man v man championship like Indy. I have learned to appreciate American openwheel racing these last couple of years though, it's really good racing and everyone has a chance to win because the equipment is more or less equal. So now, I appreciate both F1 and Indy (or whatever it's called 😅)

[@jefftaylor1186]

“Boxing is a real sport” Now that’s adorable.

[@tmichie99]

Indy has recovered from the split

[@marcusk.3182]

Perennial backmarker Zanardi schooled the entire CART field during his stint there, before coming back to F1 and being below-average at best...

[@The52car]

Definitely had nothing to do with the backmarker teams he drove for... 🙄

[@marcusk.3182]

@@The52car other drivers got much better results in equally awful cars. In 1999 Ralf scored 35pts and 3 podiums with the same Williams Zanardi got a 7th place as best result.

[@ydoucare55]

"F1 is like boxing", but "ovals are too dangerous".

[@briansalisbury4764]

The amount of money spent on the F1 chassis development and motors has always been greater, but when there was CART it was closer. Now its a big difference.

[@Phong7080]

When you race the entire event by just turning left, then I would not call it a race

[@Hilmanpanjifirdaus]

And it is grossly assumed that bernie gave hands in champcar-indycar split

[@aerodynamic3037]

Indycar is a quality series

[@SliceofLife7777]

An old Cart machine would smoke them both, today.

[@localcrew]

F1 is a race to see who is leading through the first turn. Extremely fast cars do not necessarily make for interesting racing.

[@scottmcdonald399]

This is why F1 won't allow Andretti in!

[@user-sw2ob4iw1m]

I have a special admiration for my Brummie Homeboy Nigel Mansell; he feared no one and had/ has 'balls of Titanium'

[@jtjr26]

From everything I have read Bernie did a lot of things that were good for Bernie. The fact that sometimes those decisions benefited F1 seems like a coincidence. The more I read about F1 and Bernie the more these coincidences seem to come up.

[@WRC-FAN]

I used to be a huge CART fan, but after the split I never watched it again - and that was a looooong time ago.

[@braggman08]

Bernie was just too scared The men piloting those early 90s Indy cars were real men

[@simonhunt9152]

nah the full story on the ovals was f1 cars were not made for oval impacts and thus it would have been would have been too dangerous. Indy knew this. if not for the danger factor f1 set up for oval would take the prize their active suspension in 93 and would have absolutely shone on the oval. the difference would be small tho compared to a road course... from "memory" montreal canada through out the yrs was approx' 4 sec gap plus some. that said I loved indy back then not as much as I loved f1 no where near. but I have to say I liked indy more than I like todays f1... todays f1 is like watching a computer game...If bernie thought indy was fake back in the day...Id love to hear what he he thinks of f1 today. you tube high lights are enough for me these days and the ocassional visit to the melb race here in ausrtralia.

[@elitewolverine]

@@simonhunt9152so f1 cars were inferior, got it.

[@SimRacingVeteran]

Imagine how much closer racing in F1 would be is there wasn’t a performance imbalance from the top to the bottom. Just look at how exciting F2 and Super Formula races are.

[@mark5071]

So watch F2, Super Formula, and Indycar. There are so many open wheel spec series out there. Why should the biggest non-spec series also become a spec series?

[@pgr3290]

F1 would have probably won both races in 1993. Engine power was slightly lower in F1 versus Indy between the top running cars, although F1 had better custom aero and active suspension tech. Crucially F1 had waaay less weight. In fairness it probably would have been really dangerous to run an F1 car at racing speeds on an oval. But Indycar was obviously a good sport and would be internationally more recognised today without the split.

[@lloyd9710]

I would like to have seen the two series have a few races