Weekly Ebike Tech chat January 5th 2024 Super Capacitor Ebikes and Sodium Ion Battery Light Car

[@NoInfoFound]

Thanks for taking the time to produce the Ebike Tech vids.

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are very welcome. I am enjoying doing them.

[@nc3826]

Hope the 'Weekly EV Tech' talks has a long-term place on this channel. Since it's a joy to hear your thoughts on the future direction of EV transportation. But 'battery swapping' especially for EV scooters, seems to be a far more viable near-term option than supercapacitors or hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. While battery swapping for full sized electric vehicles is still controversial. But battery swapping for EV scooters in countries like Taiwan where scooters are common, they have become ubiquitous. With EV scooters with fixed unswappable batteries are now in the minority, in those markets. And with swappable battery packs, also being utilized by micro EV. One battery swappable EV, being developed in North America is the Nimbus One. (There were some false reports that they went out of business, but as of a few months ago they stated they should be in production later this year.). It's a tilting enclosed three-wheeler and therefore at least in the United States can be registered as a motorcycle. Its swapping capability is mostly for individuals to be able to charge the batteries in their home. Especially individuals living in apartments that don't have a garage for charging. (FWIW I do have some of my own thoughts on supercapacitors but since they are more of a long-term future option and my comment was already very long. I'm saving my conjectures about how they can be best utilized for a later episode) Love to hear your take on battery swapping in general and/or any specific battery swapping EV, in a future episode. Looking forward to the next episode already, hope you have a good year.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I hope to keep it going as I do enjoy making the videos and chatting to people about things. Very interesting regarding the battery swapping in Taiwan. I have heard of schemes but was not aware that they were becoming so popular. I will put it on the list of topics to explore. Appreciated. The supercapacitors are still a longer term think but its is cool to see a viable product get made with them. Thanks for the comment. Cheers

[@nc3826]

@@HighVoltageKits Just a few footnotes relative to scooter and micro vehicle batteries swapping...... Taiwan has the most mature market and Gogoro has the most dominant share within that market..... But it's a worldwide trend, with numerous battery swapping standards and players...... Sadly, I don't see it coming to North America anytime soon, since the scooter market is so small in North America..... Good luck with your research on the topic. FWIW, I'm willing to bet that there will be solar powered battery swapping stations that will be initially developed for third world countries with poor electrical infrastructures, with the key demographic being mototaxis..... With the battery swapping stations primarily located at convenience stores..... (I got the idea after seeing some companies develop solar powered charging stations for electric vehicles.... But by using it instead for battery swapping it eliminates the need for an AC inverter and the required batteries are used more effectively) What's your guess, about it coming to fruition?

[@sparkiekosten5902]

As a person who rides a few different style of e bikes from 4000W bafang bbshd down to a 250W mid drive "dutch style bike" I have to say where there is infrastructure and safe places to ride an e bike(well as safe as can be expected) don't knock the humble 250w basic e bike. I will admit this only works for me using a mid drive setup as the torque curves are adjustable via the gears. My 250W e bike has only 550Wh at 36V but I can comfortably do 70 kilometers on a full charge however I have never tested this as I haven't ridden that far on a charge before recharging it! All this is based on a pedal only activated e bike so no throttle! I cannot say how these super capacitors are able to deliver the power but if the figures are correct for watt hours and there is no throttle I have no doubt 80 Kilometers is very achievable by the average middle aged person with a few extra pounds around their waist! Now if I only could get a 52/72V 25A charger for my e bike I would see a fast charge or an explosion! Sodium technology has one great bonus in my opinion. I know nothing about sodium batteries but as a storage solution for houses and maybe the national grid any battery which takes a bit more room for the greater safety margin has got to be a winner!

[@nc3826]

A useful characteristic about supercapacitors besides the obvious, very high charge and discharge rates , and it's cycle life being tremendously higher vastly reducing ewaste... Is that they don't chemically change like batteries do, through their charge and discharge cycle.... So a supercapacitor can be much more readily be used as a structural element.... But it's going to have to become much more energy dense and less costly to be a true viable option relative to a battery... Makes more sense in a hybrid configuration with a battery as a power booster at this time....IMHO

[@HighVoltageKits]

Some good thoughts. I know I like riding the 4000 watts stuff but I would love to cruise around Holland on one of these!

[@mickp10]

Really enjoying your weekly e-bike tech updates. Also find your e-bike motor reviews very helpful. In Australia where I live converting acoustic bikes is just starting to gain some interest because of the cost of good quality new mid drive ebikes. As well as you can use one battery on multiple builds (i.e our extended family have 15 ebikes that we can all share batteries for longer rides, and i have different bikes for different purposes using the same battery). Would really like you to have a segment on converting dual suspension acoustic bikes, in particular mounting the batteries on the frames. And which "modern" dual suspension bikes are the best for it (e g. 2018 onwards). Thanks

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks Mick. I have added it on to my list of topics. There are definitely some differences and new challenges with the more modern DH frames. Cheers

[@Samwell314]

If the Dutch can market a bike with a super capacitor, I'd be willing to bet Montreal commuters could make it work. Also, sodium is a lot easier to source than lithium and easier to recycle too - assuming the rest of the battery is equivalent - so I'm excited to see the sodium battery technology to come along.

[@HighVoltageKits]

The price is astonishing and that is a good point about Montreal as well. Beautiful city and I remember seeing lots of bikes. This looks to be a way better machine than some of the costco offerings at a not much greater price.

[@The_Privateer]

First - I continue to *love* this series. Thank you for it 💯 I think the biggest current drawback to EVs in general (and a HOST of other technology industries) is energy density. But thats only half the story. EV (inparticular) batteries also need a good ability to **discharge** at a high rate without damaging itself. You can have batteries with orders or magnitude higher *energy density* right now - but if you can only discharge at ~0.1C, that isn't very functional. 'Next Gen' batteries also must have high energy discharge capability. Just about every other tech sector industry is just waiting with baited breath for 'next gen' battery technology.

[@HighVoltageKits]

It's always been the way right. Waiting for it to catch up. If 200 watt hours per Kg is really possible with super capacitors that would be amazing as the only real drawback will have been eliminated.

[@michaelsprinzeles4022]

Very cool tech on the horizon. You fill me with hope with these updates. If more electric cars come out with competitive prices to the Yiwei I could see myself with an EV car. I live in NYC & my complex has a cheap public charger so a little vehicle like this would be fine for most daily (local) use. I have always been enthusiastic about new EV tech but I just couldn't make the numbers work between car prices & public chargers (so I stuck to DIY PHEV e-bikes). Having done the math on electricity vs gas an EV car will likely cost more over the life of the car but may break even if you keep it running long enough and a PHEV car is virtually pointless if you don't charge solely at home (even then you get about one gallons worth of range for about the cost of a gallon of gas). I hoped that would change & now it looks like the math may work out in my favor in the not too distant future.

[@nc3826]

Becoming more common to be able to charge at work and while shopping.... So a PHEV for somebody without home charging is a little more viable than you're expressing here.... IMHO, but to each their own...

[@michaelsprinzeles4022]

@@nc3826 If that charging is free or maybe at local per kwh rates you're right. I was only talking about if you have to pay for charging. I live in an apt and have to pay even at home. Luckily the rate here is the same as if I charged at home but I haven't seen a single public charger that doesn't charge at least 50% more than the local rate per kwh, making it pointless to go EV unless you're commited to an EV & are willing to pay.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah good points the infrastructure as always seems to be the key factor here. The economics of a car that costs $8000 and if it lasts 10 years combined with being cheaper to fuel. It might not work as well as pointed out if the place to park it is very expensive and the charging points cost a lot to use.

[@nc3826]

@@michaelsprinzeles4022 Volta uses an advertising model at shopping centers so it's either free or at a very low cost..... the main issue is availability my local one's are always filled...... there are incentives for businesses to install them for the employees.... i'm not saying it's necessarily applicable to you' now'..... But available options are expanding at an ever-increasing rate... So it should become a viable option at some point in the future.... Plus the Nimbus one is supposed to become available at some point during this year and I believe NYC is supposed to be one of the first cities where it's supposed to be offered... . It is an enclosed three wheeler that tilts and has removable batteries that could be charged in most Apartments.... It's supposed to offer a rental and a purchase option.... It's a startup so of course Caveat Emptor applies.... Good luck with your EV option search.....

[@michaelsprinzeles4022]

@@HighVoltageKits If this is anything close to "as advertised" it changes the math a lot. In the US the cheapest new ICE car is the Versa manual at around $17k which is over $20k out the door. If you start with a lower buy in price you don't have to worry about your "break even point" even if the electrical costs rival fuel costs. If you can charge cheaply enough you start out saving and the savings of an EV over ICE only grow as the car ages. I love that math (if it works out). I won't hold my breath because so many promising vehicles have come out at higher costs than promised but just the idea may spark competition and that gives me hope.

[@billweaver3867]

I had a "big" capacitor, about the size of a half pint glass. Used to demonstrate its ability to store energy by changing at 24V and then shorting it. Lovely fat blue spark and loud crack. Maybe best not to try that with this super capacitor...😂. Sounds like great strides forward - hope it's as good as claimed.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Sounds like it was great fun!

[@kamerad4212]

Yeah my stereo power amp runs for about 30 seconds after i switch off the power. Capacitors in the power supply.

[@hisforhack]

Thanks for your take on new e-teck, But can yon please turn down the background music for us hard of hearing. I like the music just not the volume. Thanks

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will check the levels for carefully in future. May have got it wrong on this one. Appreciated

[@kamerad4212]

Yeah you have a soft voice which is nice but the background was about as loud as youse.

[@YoureNowOnTV]

Interesting video. Thanks for sharing 😀 The person practicing trumpet in the background wasn’t ideal, but these things can’t be helped I suppose. 😉

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are welcome. Not a fan of the ambient backing track hey.

[@Daniel-xg8el]

@@HighVoltageKitsWhat' s the name of the song? It is a very relaxing video.

[@markifi]

brief pedantry moment: people seem to have decided in common parlance we call watthours per kilogram "energy density" but the proper term for this is specific energy.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Learned something there. I did see one referral to specific energy. I'm not sure the energy density thing is going back in the bottle tho lol. It's gone to far. Not my doing mind 😆

[@ataksnajpera]

Super capacitors are obsolete. Super capacitors : 75Wh/kg and ~2000 cycles LFP : 150 Wh/kg and ~3000 cycles NMC : 280 Wh/kg and ~1000 cycles LFP is much better and also very safe!

[@HighVoltageKits]

I like LifePO4. Another one that is safer but needs more capacity. I understand your skepticism regarding capacitors but I think obsolete is stretching things. For something to be obsolete to me means it's been superceded by something else to the point where it can no longer be improved or there is no commercial sense to it. Like glass windows made micer obsolete. The caps are being steadily improved. Lots of companies companies see a future in them for many purposes for many reasons. Literally the only negative is capacity. I'm going to keep am open mind. Maybe they will disappear. Should be fun finding out. Appreciate the comment mate. Cheers

[@kamerad4212]

Get the sodium-powered car and mount the capacitor bike on the back and you'll have it!

[@HighVoltageKits]

I am down. That car would be ideal for me in town here. I can always borrow a car for the occasional time that I need to go further and swap this car for that one when I did.

[@youtube7076]

do the ultra caps work in the -c temp range like in alaska or iceland ? compared to li-on ?

[@HighVoltageKits]

One of their strengths is performance at low temperatures. I think the exact range is listed on their website. You might need to activate the translate though. There is a link for them in the description.

[@happygiraffe9787]

Visited their website to search specsheet etc. about their products. Couldn't find any, guess its too early and still in development or testing. Worst scenario its just another unicorn yet to exist.

[@HighVoltageKits]

If you mean the FastCap place. Its not the most obvious. I think they are looking for partners maybe. Hopefully we will get some proper reviews of the bikes soon and see how people like riding them. I will be disapointed it turns out to be BS. Cheers

[@happygiraffe9787]

@@HighVoltageKits Battery market has been little pragmatic lately. Maybe one day we get decent new generation of cells like the supposed EVE 40PL that promise 100A continuous (find that hard to believe from 21700, even 50A cont would be insanity)

[@flyingtime5501]

​@@happygiraffe9787I use Headway HP's, they can do 200a burst n 80a cont. They are quite bigger than 21700 tho. But perks are you can make easy copper busbars to make your own packs n they last forever. I'm goin on 4 years of daily riding n the battery has yet to degrade.

[@flyingtime5501]

​@@happygiraffe9787they measure 38120

[@weorldedit]

The whole idea of this bike is extremly dumb. The only advantage of the capacitors is the high charge and discharge rates and they pair it with a 250 W motor. A normal E-bike battery of this size can easily provide 2.5 kW of discharge and 500 W of charge rate. Regen breaking is not used on most bikes because there is not much there to recover, because of the light weight and slow speeds. Most of the energy is lost to wind resistance anyway, so only on very steep hills would you ever need regen, and they designed it for the Netherlands.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Why is it dumb? Its a Dutch company making bikes primarily for Holland. I think what you mean is that it would be not the bike for you. I made it pretty clear that this bike works for its intended use scenario. People don't ride 2.5kw ebikes in Amsterdam. They ride bikes like this. There are lots of other advantages to capacitors beyond the discharge. There is also the high temperature range they can operate in. Ease of recycling and much lower cost materials. No need for things like cobalt or lithium. I thought it was good to see a product that was affordable with a really good warranty. They are definitely worth exploring otherwise there would not be any investment in them. In terms of regen I suggest you watch some of the Grin Tech stuff as there are quite a few videos on the benefits of regen with hub motors. Its not the same as with cars granted but it's more that you are giving it credit for.

[@weorldedit]

@@HighVoltageKits Several reasons. Their 540 Wh battery weighs 7 kg, my 500 Wh Bosch battery weighs only 3 kg. My ebike works fine in 40 °C and -10 °C weather. I can charge my bike and leave it outside for a month and it will still be full. This bike will need charging bevore a trip, because of the self discharge and the battery is not removable, so you need a garage to use it. Riding at 25 km/h you only have 0,3 Wh of kinetik energy and with this 250 W motor you will need at least 5 s to regnerate it. This is too slow for normal breaking and most of the enery will be lost to wind resistance and drag. The capacitors will be more expensive than li-ion and the bikes are already on sale. They dont tell you which other components they use, because that is probably where they save money. People in the Netherlands like simple, tough, low maintaince bikes that will just stand outside in the rain and be ready to use.