The Two Towers - Cultivating Conflict

[@meaningofthings]

Become a patron: www.patreon.com/weightofcinema I’ve recently lowered the tier amounts to make being a patron a little more affordable for you all, and I really would love it if you all would join the exclusive community on Patreon and enjoy the exclusive benefits that I offer there! I’m so excited to hear what you all thought of the video! Let’s talk about it here in the comments, as well as your answers to my question at the end of the video. Thank you all, as always.

[@francod.5295]

Eowyn

[@shmatts5269]

Whilst the journey of Eowyn, ‘I have a right to fight for what I love’ is compelling and leads us all to cheer for her as she defies orders and charges into battle, my defence of Arwen is that her dilemma in the story, albeit less daring, is far more grave and impactful. ‘I will risk all I have for the one I love’. Her decision to stay is not only heartbreaking when you consider all she is sacrificing, but the way it affects her father is powerfully moving. The ripples of her decision help create conditions for Aragorn’s victory in the upcoming battle, as she forces her father to concede that she has chosen her own path and he has a duty to support her. Additionally, the weight this has on Aragorn is of great significance. Arwen did what only one other character (Gandalf) managed to do, she put her faith in the race of Men. Whilst her people fled and the world was on its knees, she maintained her belief that the one she loved, as well as his race, would prevail. Eowyn’s courage gets our blood pumping, but for me, Arwen’s plight conveys greater emotion, and there is courage of a different kind in that. ‘Courage comes in many forms’ being one of the core lessons of Lord of the Rings. The only shortcoming that bothers me is why she wasn’t there at the end to say goodbye to her father as he left for the undying lands, it seems a bit odd, but I suppose that moment was reserved for the hobbits.

[@Dustyholes]

Shmatt S I second that, I couldn’t have said it any better! Although I wish every time Arwen was in a scene it wasn’t so dark and gloomy. Tbh all her scenes bore me to death but I recognize how important her character is. However we can’t not recognize how Eowyn killed the Witch King, if she hadn’t done that he would still be “alive” and in hiding waiting for the Dark Lords to manifest again. And on a side note I think Eowyn is hotter than Arwen (and I’m not talking about the actress’ I’m talking about the characters in the movie)

[@meaningofthings]

I love these thoughts on Arwen. I think she is a little underrated as a character, myself. I give major credit to Eowyn for her impact on the story, but I think that Arwen's character dilemma is very compelling and portrayed well. Thanks for the comment!

[@mayaboone5756]

YES! You said everything I wanted to and couldn't put into words! As far as your observation about her not saying farewell to Elrond at the Grey Havens, I see your point. In the book, she does have a briefly mentioned emotional farewell with him at Edoras before returning to Gondor (in the chapter "Many Partings" from the Return of the King) and I assume Tolkien put it there for several reasons. One, like you say, was to have the final moments at the Grey Havens be exclusively about the Hobbits. But also, in all practicality, she was now the Queen of Gondor, and as Aragorn was continuing on with the rest of the Fellowship (with other additions: Celeborn and Galadriel, etc) for a while, it would make sense to have somebody go back to Minas Tirith to keep things going. But that's all speculation. I admit I hadn't really thought about it, but these are my thoughts. Make of them what you will.

[@forests.9597]

@@Dustyholes Yeah, in the movies is not so well explained, well, you see, after Tom Bombadil rescued the hobbits from the Barrow Downs, he gave them Barrow-Blades, when Eowyn was fighting the Witch King, Merry stabbed him in the knee with it, and the spell that allowed the Witch King to move and to be inmortal was broken, so once incapacitated, Eowyn finished him stabbing him in the face. Edit: By the way, in the movie, the barrow-blades are given to the hobbits by Aragorn, and then replaced by some elven dagger in Lorien, to then be replaced by a rohirric sword, so yeah technically, the incapacitation of the Witch King doesn't make much sense in the movie.

[@jamescreighton4912]

Eowyn, no doubt. Better written in book and film and I don't just say this cause I had a crush on her as a kid watching these. Her journey is one of searching for glory in battle but realizing there is no glory in it, despite doing great deeds of valor. Arwen, in contrast, is more of an ultimate sacrifice for love story, to give up immortality for one life of happiness with the one she loves. And, while romantic, it's not as human or relatable to me as Eowyns journey of idolizing war and warriors like Aragorn only to realize that peace and peaceful people (like Faramir) are the more honorable roles.

[@meaningofthings]

You make a good point about Eowyn's story being more rooted in her humanity. However, I would counter in asking about Arwen's vision of her future son -- would you say that her vision demonstrates her very real and human desire to be a mother and have a life in Middle Earth as opposed to the Undying Lands? Does her need to love Aragorn showcase her own humanity in a powerful way?

[@jamescreighton4912]

@@meaningofthings I think it is very human which is part of her journey. It is simply tied into her love for Aragorn and their future together with their child. Eowyn is more mental thoughts and a personal struggle against herself...which Arwen has to an extent. Maybe I just connected more with Eowyns. Both good in film but Arwn had almost no time in the book so, maybe that's another reason.

[@jamescreighton4912]

To quote from a book on JRR Tolkiens work, Eowyn is so afraid of a cage she seeks death in battle as the ultimate value of heroism and valor but doesn't realize the cage is defined in some ways by her and she can escape in other ways.

[@meaningofthings]

@@jamescreighton4912 This is well put. I think you make a good point regarding Eowyn's character. She's a more flawed character, and this reveals her humanity. Arwen doesn't have this dynamic, it seems.

[@seldamnia13]

True... although it is far more easier to try and redefine yourself into something better, to seek glory, to rebel against someone or something that cages you...rather that give everything away(immortality, your family, powers perhaps ecc) or in other words to lower yourself from better conditions to objectively worse...it takes far more courage I think to do the last

[@keeleymorgan9697]

I like both equally. I like how they contrast each other, Arwen as a more passive character and Eowyn as a more active character. I like that they’re not really the same, they have their own strengths and separate story. I adore Eowyn’s courage and victory over the Witch King, but I also love Arwen’s steadfast faith in Aragorn and her willingness to give up everything to get what she wants. While I acknowledge Eowyn contributes more to the story, I think they are great representatives of how different characters, active vs passive, can affect a story.

[@meaningofthings]

Great thoughts! They are both strong characters, definitely. Thank you for watching!

[@casualnerd8139]

Personally, I like Eowyn more. But that might be biased by the fact, that Arwen as an elv is supposed to be rather flawless and powerful. Eowyn instead is, as a human, not as strong and makes mistakes, which makes her accomplishments have more weight to me. That helps me to connect to her more and to understand her actions.

[@Yawnz2]

Never realized how much i liked movie video essays until i started watching your content. Goodjob and thank you.

[@meaningofthings]

Wow! What an honor. I'm so glad that you've enjoyed, and that you've discovered a new interest in this style of content. Cheers to you!

[@crazykirsch]

Eowyn hands down. She's a complete character, struggles with not only unrequited affection towards Aragorn but also the reality of being a pigeonholed as a woman in Rohirrim society. Killing the Witch King wasn't even that important for her character imo, more of a cherry on top. The real payoff was her and Merry making it to the battle, cementing themselves as true warriors of Rohan as they chant "Death!" with Theoden and the rest. Arwen.. I understand her plight is more passive and an introspective / philosophical battle but I just cannot get emotionally invested in it. She saves Frodo from the Nazgul, and single handedly convinces Elrond to reforge Narsil but despite this I just don't care about her character much. I think a big part of it is the disconnected, ethereal aura surrounding the elves. It doesn't mean her sacrifices or struggles are unimportant but they are far harder to relate to.

[@Dustyholes]

“Theodèn King you stand alone” “Not alone. FOR THE KING!!!!”

[@jamofbob715]

Sorry to be “that guy” but... “Theodèn King stands alone” “Not alone, to the King!”

[@sueahn5852]

100% think that Eowyn is more compelling than Arwen as a character. As a teenage girl watching the series (hadn’t read the books till after the movies came out), I thought that Arwen’s story and the lore surrounding her was intriguing. However, I really FELT something for Eowyn and found her inspiring in a sense as she had more agency and a drive for something. And it was incredible to see her heroism as well as her obvious flaws (which made her SO relatable).

[@PrinceofArfon]

"Eowyn or Arwen"? The debate my friend and I had when we were teenagers. He chose Arwen, as the "higher" and more perfect ideal, though he respected Eowyn. I liked and respected Arwen well enough (even moreso with the book's backstory), but in the film I was more taken with Eowyn. Her character arc is more developed, and she is played with great fire and sincerity by Miranda Otto, a performance I think is severely underrated. People like to cheer Eowyn but they never mention Otto's superb performance. To me, Liv Tyler always seemed like a decent actress who was doing pretty good in a part she was fairly well cast in, whereas Otto simply *was* Eowyn, existing as the character almost as deeply as Viggo Mortensen did as Aragorn or Sean Astin as Sam. While her strength and determination are certainly attractive, I was always most touched by her deep love for her uncle, and her willingness to sacrifice for him and their people. She also appears to have a strong relationship with her brother Eomer, especially considering the Return of the King Extended scene where he finds her hurt body on the battlefield and thinks she is dead. The silenced cry of anguish he gives is heart-rending. The point about her deep love for her father-figure and willingness to sacrifice for family and country is also why she is highly compatible with Faramir. I wish the movie made their connection a bit more clear (we get a little bit in ROTK Extended Edition), but it's really quite beautiful. He too sacrificed everything for his father and people, and lost much, but stayed humble and hopeful throughout it all. That's what Eowyn needs when she meets him, his hope and gentle humility. It's a beautiful end to both of their story arcs.

[@stingfan16ify]

This is such a wonderful series that I can't wait to see the final part of the Trilogy. Your comments and observations are well thought out and edited into the footage seamlessly. Great job!!!

[@simonjern5325]

I have to say that your visual presentation of these films is absolutely brilliant: using black and white makes the films seem fresh even though I've seen them many many times, and even more importantly it also lets the brilliant soundtrack speak for itself more noticeably, which is always a good idea. I've seen many good KZbin-videos about cinematography in LotR, but yours were absolutely the best looking. This makes the viewer look at the movies look like the work of art that they are. Thank you, also for the amazing content of course!

[@westiesarebesties7890]

One thing that I'd like to talk about is the soundtrack. The way the soundtrack instantly changes tone at the mention of the Shire, or Mordor, or any other place, character, etc. There can be a really intense sound playing, and then when someone mentions the Shire, hobbits, or something else someone is fighting for, it changes to fit that. The soundtrack really is perfect. Also for your question, I would say Eowyn is the better character. I love Arwen as well, and she provides great motivation for Aragorn and Elrond. She's a great character and provides a whole other element to the story. Eowyn on the other hand, is the definition of empowerment (if you're male or female). She fights for those that she loves. She's not afraid of death, but rather inescapable solitude.

[@elsa_draws_stuff]

I've always liked Eowyn better (more relatable, her development arc is pretty much my own) but Arwen is quite a bit deeper than it can first appear in the film. Eowyn's arc gets more screen time/page-time-outside-of-Appendices because she's a human character and directly tied up with a pivotal battle. Arwen, on the other hand, comes from a family that changed the course of Middle-Earth's ancient history and was the core of Tolkien's key myths. She chooses to give up the immortality that she's enjoyed for over a thousand years to face hardship and a lonely death all for one man whose entire lifespan would probably feel like five years to her. In effect, she has chosen five minutes of ultimate bliss over a regular human lifetime of success and high status. And that choice is really interesting. She also mirrors her ancestor Luthien who married a mortal and died as a result. So I would say that while I like Eowyn better as a character, Arwen's arc is the more fascinating one when you really think about it.

[@hepifin4941]

Never have I clicked on a notification so quickly. Great video! *also I'm most certainly not crying*

[@meaningofthings]

*Thank you for your not-tears*

[@meaningofthings]

Cheers to you!

[@matttrevers2552]

Thank you for this essay, it's really enjoyable and sheds new light onto the films. I'd previously not been a fan of the change in the films that brings Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath, which felt unnecessary to me. However in the context that you discuss of showing simultaneous victories in different parts of the world, it does make sense. I know you mentioned that you're only discussing the films here, but I think it is interesting to discuss the changes from the books that enable these effects you discuss. In The Two Towers there are big changes in the order of narrative from the books, most obviously is that Frodo and Sam's story is told in parallel with the others whereas in the books their story is told separately. This enables the narrative parallelism. Also, TTT film finishes significantly earlier than the book in all three story arcs to enable them to finish on that victorious note. TTT books run the story on further and finish on cliffhangers/next stage of a journey beginning. This suits the story better in the book but would probably be underwhelming on film. Tolkein also employs some really nice devices to link the characters and their stories together. There's one moment where Frodo stands on top of the waterfall and looks out across Middle Earth under the moonlight and wonders where his friends are, and whether they are alive or dead. I think at some later point that question is answered as one of the other characters looks up at the moon and thinks of Frodo and is unaware that Frodo was witnessing the same scene We also learn at other times that the thoughts of the other characters stray constantly to Frodo and Sam. I think the films employ some similar mechanisms when characters are discussing each others movements/positions and then the narrative jumps to those characters, although I can't remember specific examples of these. It's probably about time I watched the extended editions again.

[@garvitjethwani3076]

Great work brother , I really appreciate what you are doing . Great observations and it takes hard work to make these kind of videos . Waiting for part 3...

[@meaningofthings]

Thank you so much! It's coming...

[@KingCribble]

You're gonna go far, kid. Subscribed.

[@VivianStorm]

Thanks for the video! As for the question, I find it hard to decide between Eowyn and Arwen. Both of them could have been much more fleshed out, in the books and in the movies. Eowyn is this brave, fiery woman who wants more from life, who strives for glory, but sees herself constrained and suffocated by her duties and her role as a carer. The way I see it, she never loves Aragorn in the traditional sense: she wants to be him. I wish they had explored that more, because it is very interesting. Then we have Arwen, kind of a second Luthien: wise, powerful, willful. Torn between two worlds, knowing that whatever choice she makes will bring her sadness in the end. And still deciding to see the beauty in what she has, still hopeful and shining in the dark. Some criticise that in the first movie she took the part of Glorfindel in the Bruinen, but I love it as it gives a bit more to her character. I'm kind of sad they did not show her fighting with the elves in the second movie as they planned. Who to choose? Maybe in the end I have to lean towards Arwen, if only because her conundrum is something you don't see that often.

[@meaningofthings]

Great analysis! I really do think they are both powerful characters, that definitely could be expounded upon. I find myself leaning towards Arwen, too.

[@PrinceofArfon]

Great insight, that Eowyn's infatuation has more to do with wanting to *be* him rather than be with him. I think that's generally true, though she also comes to really admire and like him, in a way that's better suited to a platonic friendship. I'm so glad they didn't have Arwen show up at Helm's Deep as they had once planned. That would have distracted so much from all the other characters' arcs in that sequence, and would have cheapened her character, I think. While she has the potential to be quite powerful, being descended from Luthien, her strength would not be that of a warrior or weapon-wielder. Going by Luthien's example, she might be able to weave spells with singing--but Peter Jackson seemed to shy away from Tolkien's concepts of magical conflicts being more abstract and artistic, preferring instead action sequences that are easier for audiences to understand. See: the third Hobbit movie.

[@toonghee3818]

I think what's great about The Two Towers is that is shows us the *stakes* of the battle that our Fellowship is fighting. In the first film, we establish their commitment to each other, as you've stated in Part 1, but in the second film, we get to see just what it is they're up against--and what could possibly happen if they fail. It's why Sam's speech at the end of The Two Towers, along with all the storylines culminating in their successful ends, is such a poignant, beautiful, and masterfully done sequence in this film--and possibly my favorite moment in the entire trilogy. It shows us why our characters are doing what they're doing in this middle part--even though it's clearly really, really hard--before we transition toward the end and start to reach our conclusion.

[@darth_vader9]

Both of the Lord of the Rings videos you have made were very well put together. Can't wait for the next part!

[@hobobobo5244]

Very underated channel, production quality and asthetic is on point Can I have an nword pass?

[@Floral_Green]

“Just this once, but use it wisely, young one..”

[@kenarbes]

Eowyn, because she's more consistent. They beefed up Arwen's role at the beginning, but she then became an Elven flower slowly wilting. Eowyn wanted to fight and she found a way to sneak into the army, and went forth and won. She knew what she was getting into.

[@marcel9971]

Hey, maybe I'm a bit late, but I just wanted to say thank you for yet two awesome videos analysing the best movie trilogy I know. For me as a German it's always beautiful to see how literature in any appearance ignores borders and unites people from all across the world that just love the same story, the same world, the same characters. I grew up with "The Lord of the Rings" and with your video essays you help me a lot to understand and to actually realize why I always felt moved and struck in such, as I thought, "unspeakable" ways by literally every single aspect of these three masterpieces. Thank you very much, and please continue your work and present us a third part soon! :) I'm really looking forward to learning a few new interpretations of my childhood thoughts ^^

[@meaningofthings]

Cheers, friend :)

[@Floral_Green]

I could not have said it better myself. I grew up watching these films as a young child, and was immediately taken by them, never once seeing it as anything short of a masterpiece of film/story-telling since. Any narrative that can have such a powerful impact - be it for a child or adult - is worth analysing and properly articulating thoughts on. Everything in this video, for example, makes perfect sense, and fits together like a puzzle in my subconscious.

[@stuffthings9618]

I love the books and I can agree why some people criticize the movies for changing things. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. But you have to understand that film and books are entirely different mediums. the people who criticize the movies often fail to understand that its IMPOSSIBLE to translate Tolkien 100% into film. That would require a movie as long as human history itself. There is so much lore and detail within these books. Peter Jackson understood that and thats why he didnt try it. To be fair, these movies already have an enormous amount of lore especially for being a 11 hours epic. And thats another issue. These three movies are incredibly long already. Any more time would have surely made the studio uneasy. They were already risking a lot making each movie 3 hours long. Do you understand how how INSANE IN THE MEMBRANE you had to be as a movie studio executive in the late 90s to say YES to 3 long ass movies from a fantasy book that only a niche fanbase cared about? Even I would have said no. So thank New Line for that you nerds. When you take all that into account its easy to understand why these movies were done the way they were. Yes I would have wanted to see more of Gondor, more of Bombadil, have Glorfindel, more of sauron, a different interpretation of Denethor, the scorching of the shire etc. There are plenty of things I wish they would have done. But all those things aren't really necessary to the plot. Peter Jackson had to ensure he only included the most important things and he did just that. I do not believe there is anyone else that could have made these movies better than he did. He really caught lighting in a bottle. Even if you're a Tolkien purist or someone who doesn't like fantasy you have to give credit where credit is due. It is widely accepted in the cinema world (not the book world) that this trilogy is a cinematic masterpiece and for a reason. The LOTR books are also a masterpiece and Professor Tolkien is definitely a legend. Tolkien should always get his credit because he is responsible for all this and that should never be forgotten. But the movies are a Peter Jackson CREATION inspired by Tolkien. They are similar but different. In my opinion the movies still captured the soul of the books which was more important than being 100% accurate. This trilogy is a good example of: if you're gonna change things from the established lore, you better do it FUCKIN RIGHT. And they did just that.

[@jamesjoelholmes4541]

I love that you showed the reference scenes in black and white! I think I might like to watch these films this way...

[@kaykay3585]

Eowyn is the character you connect to more because of her fierce love and loyalty. She is rewarded with love and a kingdom in the end. Arwen just seems like a spoiled princess.

[@chewangia8]

It really was privilege to watch all 3 of these films in theater.

[@chewbacca8980]

Also, I found your last piece on LOTR (And this one) to be very well written and I am saddened that commenters were being negative. Keep up the great work!

[@kinnexion]

Finally. We’ve waited for so long. Thank you for bringing the second part out. Can’t wait for part 3!

[@alexnicolas7]

What I know is that black and white in Gandalf vs Balrog scene looks amazing 3:40

[@91herodin]

Eowyn. But mostly because the films got me more invested in her. And her heroic deeds in the return of the king. Maybe things would be different if Arwen had joined Helms Deep like in the books.

[@beatrizsuzuki1469]

Loved the LoTR videos! Please, continue! About Eowyn and Arwen, I understand nothing about films and have read most of tolkien's books. I was already invested in Arwen-Aragorn relationship, they've been together for decades, sworn love and Tolkien was all about love forever. Their commitment never actually suffered. Also their story reflects that of Luthien and Beren, their kin, it was as they were always meant to each other. In the film like how their relationship is pictured. How they created a conflict for Arwen, it is emotional and not forced. Much better than putting Arwen in Helm's deep fighting. Eowyn is a strong character, in part on her own, in part because Grima poisoned her mind to be restless (books). I like how the character is built, she just arrived later

[@Luna-Eclypse]

The question is difficult to answer as someone brought up on the books. Arwen had such a minor role to play in the books that was expanded upon in the films to add more context to Aragorn's love for her. And Éowyn had a grand and meaningful arc where she rose up from her "cage" to fight for those she loved...until she decides it's not for her and settles down with a man for a domestic life anyway in both book and movie. I would say Éowyn is a more interesting character because she has a more relatable struggle. Being oppressed by those who think they know better, and rising up to defy expectations and take command of your own destiny. Arwen's struggle, while in no way meaningless or unrelatable, is executed with a little less grace. She struggles with a choice between an immortal life with her family and people, or a mortal life with her lover. Sadly I felt like the films did a poor job of explaining her plotline. The "Arwen in dying, her fate is tied to the ring" line still confused me to this day even after I became such a die hard fan of the series. So I think Éowyn is the better character, especially in execution. But I have to give credit to the writers for at least trying to give Arwen more of a role to play in the narrative, as it certainly made Aragon's arcs all the more impactful for me.

[@jackieboyd2152]

I admire them both, but I think I prefer Eowyn, because she doesn't fear of death and she fights bravely. Eowyn helps Merry believe he is strong and he can fight for that he loves. She gives people hope and that is really important! I love your video, thank you so much! PS: My English is not good, I'm a Polish girl, but I tried to write everything as good as I can :)

[@nicolemajlat2768]

Jackie Boyd your English is very good👏

[@jackieboyd2152]

@@nicolemajlat2768 oh thank you!

[@entruvia]

Yeeeah! Been so hyped for this, always a good day when you upload ❤️

[@meaningofthings]

Thank you so much! It's so good to finally have it out on KZbin!

[@sydneysparks1122]

I definitely like Eowyn as a character better in the films. I feel like she really has a purpose in the films and we get to see her character develop in The Two Towers and in Return of the King. Although I like Arwen, she just never seemed as important and she wasn't really *in* the action, you know? And this was a really cool video! It came up as "recommended" by youtube and I really enjoyed hearing your commentary on it! The Two Towers is my favorite of the three films and listening to you kind of pointed out some reasons as to why that I never even realized. :) Thanks!

[@shannon-roseneary4995]

Really enjoyed this video! Keep it up and take care :)

[@MrCykko]

>Finds Part 1 of this series and is intrigued >Notices Part 2 in the sidebar, watches it and falls in love >Notices Part 3 isn't out yet and cries Welp, looks like I'll have to subscribe and wait for Part 3. I've already become obsessed with channels such as The Closer Look and Like Stories of Old, why not binge another essay channel? ;)

[@zerozok]

I've waited too long for this, man... Thank you)

[@tydollaz9850]

its cool hearing the technical part of film making

[@meaningofthings]

Agreed.

[@meaningofthings]

Thanks for watching!!

[@tydollaz9850]

Weight Of Cinema no prob! Really been enjoying the content, looking forward to more!

[@shirleymental4189]

There's unused footage of Eowyn fighting several Uruk Hai in the caves at Helms Deep. Thank God P.J. changed his mind. 1. Uruk Hai are badass....seriously badass. 2. Eowyn has obviously had some training with a sword tiz true, 3. Instant Mary Sue. :(

[@PolesitterPictures]

That's a hard question. Like, Eowyn's character is more... tangible, I suppose, for audiences, but Arwen's character is a lovely little metaphor for hope and how it works in a world of conflict, which is pretty interesting. Eowyn's got more lines and presence in the story, but Arwen's presence, though miniscule at times, hits like a train when she IS there.

[@christianmagrum3282]

I couldn’t say which one I believe is better written as I believe that they both served individual narrative purpose. But I like and appreciate Arwen more for her faith in Aragorn and willingness to sacrifice for her wants and promise.

[@finnmacdiarmid3250]

This is why Game of Thrones is so good and why everyone and their mother wants to know who will finally sit on the Iron Throne come this spring. The writing and editing force the audience to stay invested in the collective conflict and all minor conflicts

[@ChildofGoodFortune]

1:35 Your comments on the role Tolkien played in bringing this story to the screen couldn't be more wrong. You're young yet, so I'll give you a life lesson in leadership. The most powerful and pervasive leadership technique is leadership through example and the example Tolkien gives in producing such a grand and emotional piece of literature drove Peter Jackson to delivering this work of art of the large screen. When Howard Shore agreed to write the OST for the LOTR trilogy he was so overwhelmed by the effort and dedication on the set of LOTR it propelled him to produce some of the best work of his life. Howard and rest of the crew were of course inspired by Jackson who was inspired in turn by Tolkien. You have to remember that Jackson was himself surrounded by people who loved and revered those books years before he got the rights to produce the film. Also remember that Jackson almost messed up the films by wanting to adapt the books into 2 films - it was a film executive that said as there were 3 books there should be 3 films and no doubt that executive was a fan of Tolkiens work as well. I think that you can contrast this with the GoT TV series. When the first series launched everyone including the show runners assumed that the book series would be completed before the end of the TV series but GRRM just didn't produce the concluding books. That TV series, like we all know, went to the dogs and D&D committed some of the most egregious acts of viewer subversion and horrific collapses in story telling in the history of television as a medium. Why? Without a doubt the failure of GRRM to complete his epic was significant, especially in failing to lead in displaying the sheer sweat and guts it takes to bring such a large scale story to the screen. The downside of leadership by example as a technique is that it is often imperceptible, however potent. Thus you do not give Tolkien credit for the LOTR films; thus GRRM was not blamed for the trashing of the TV series. But look carefully and you'll see this is the case.

[@GamertagO1]

Yes! I’ve been waiting for this. I was just talking about it last night. Ok, now to watch...

[@89edipus89]

Extraordinary analysis my friend, like you did with FELLOWSHIP, will you also do one on RETURN OF THE KING?, personally my favorite in the trilogy.

[@user-kx6yp8cm7w]

Arwen, she plays a direct and extremely important role in the story. She saves frodo from the wraiths, and later, she sacrifices her mortality, which leads to her father deciding to help Aragorn recruit the undead army, which then leads to victory at Gondor. Her love also greatly encourages Aragorn throughout the films, and one could argue that he might not have had the will power to push on, especially when he fell off the cliff. Eowyn is also important, but not nearly as much. She kills the wraith king and also provides encouragement to a few characters. But, if she was removed from the story, the fellowship would still be successful. Arwen, on the other hand, makes at least 2 huge impacting moves, and without her, the fellowship would have probably failed on multiple occasions.

[@BlueOctober13th]

Eowyn for sure. I used to love Arwen as a little girl but that's when I was in princess mode. Now I'm in relateable warrior woman mode. omg these are such good critical essays and I can't wait for part 3. subscribed... also those people complaining about you and the LotR books also totally forgot in your first video you showed a clip of boromir bonding with the hobbits. The film gives a lot more love to Boromir than Tolkien, I've read the books too and I personally feel they didn't tie together Boromir's character NEARLY as well as even the theater edition LotR films did!

[@hussain1921]

GREATEST TRILOGY OF ALL TIME.

[@evaxnanda1648]

Reading all these comments on who is written better is fantastic.. But I would like to add that the Arwen scenes also add perspective that the time of the elves is over and how elves are literally flooding out of Middle Earth. Without these scenes we would have wondered where the elves were to play their part in the fight for Middle Earth. It goes in depth when Arwen was actually leaving but changed her mind during her journey towards the Grey Havens. I always get the feeling that all the elves have acceptance for what is happening and to see her feel the opposite is very powerful in my opinion.

[@charajensen3186]

Arwen. I appreciate and acknowledge Eowyn's bad-assery in taking down the freakin witch king and being all bold and cool, but ultimately I've always seen her character as annoying and sorrowful. She's just always so sad and drab. She's like this sad puppy following Aragorn around and being all annoying and in the way (except she's not because she is a strong independent woman, but, good lord, she thinks she needs a man). I mean it makes sense when you see the world she's in where she's around people dying and starving. Plus the only man who was showing her any interest before Aragorn shows up on the scene is Wormtongue so hunky sword boy is a total upgrade. Contrast that with Arwen's world full of elves who literally don't die and have plenty. She's gorgeous, the people around her are all gorgeous, life is great. So it does make sense why Eowyn is the way she is, and I wouldn't ask the writers to change a thing about her. A comparison with her character in the film to that in the book: spot on. That's just kind of who she is. But, overall, I enjoy Arewn's character much more because of the hope and life she brings. I also think she serves as a great motivation throughout the film as to what the characters (not just Aragorn) are fighting for: hope, peace, freedom, and life. I definitely appreciate the greater role the filmmakers gave her as opposed to her role in the books. Like I said, Eowyn's a straight up boss, but so is Arwen, and she serves as a great symbol for hope and love. So yah: Arwen.

[@TempusViator]

This is such a cool channel. My only complaint is there’s not enough to consume

[@thekermitkid1992]

I love Eowyn in that she’s courageous, wants to fight and has this badass moment; but she has traits you would associate with femininity. She has this balance of bravery and a huge heart - a true Gryffindor 🦁in fact, though we don’t know much about her, I imagine Eowyn to have a similar personality to Lily Potter (Harry’s mother)

[@moht9985]

Hey man, Kule show you got here. Keep it up!

[@meaningofthings]

Planning on it! Thank you so much.

[@andrewcook6608]

I see what you did there. :)

[@adnanilyas6368]

Eowyn is easily better written. Both have a strong moment where they make important and consequential decisions against the Ringwraiths, and both sort of decline and fall out of the story after those moments. But Eowyn has that preceding time spent where she is isolated and feels, because of her status as a woman, doesn’t have real agency. And that build up time makes her eventual choices not only more epic, but also gives a strong conclusion to this arc, one that answers her fundamental question. Arwen’s choices are left more vague. We as viewers aren’t given full context of what makes the West significant nor why the elves are going there (you need the Silmarillion for that). The films can say that there’s a consequence between choosing a mortal life over an immortal one, but we aren’t given the ability to process what that means, nor feel the pain that comes with that choice. Instead, we merely feel the upside (life with King Aragorn).

[@tarmairon431]

Yo are wrong. Look for "Arwen's Fate" hete on KZbin, that's a scene from LotR (RotK i think) were the consequences of Arwen staying in Middle Earth are clearly shown.

[@ozy1666]

looking forward to part 3!!!

[@markrandy8953]

You give us an impossible choice. Chocolate or ice cream? Both characters are fundamental to the telling of the story and both willingly sacrifice everything for what they believe. Arwen's story carries the heavy mythical weight of a choice that no mortal can say they ever imagined for themselves... what bitterness to contemplate love with a mortal. Eowyn's is a more real and visceral sacrifice because she has seemingly been denied everything (love, acknowledgment, her family). It is only the order of their sacrifice that is different and at least for the movies they seem to be mirrored characters until the nature of the final demand (one rejects the nature of her people and is willing to love, one embraces her culture and is willing to die). These two women deserve the fictional medal of honor and as such the choice of who was braver, better, or more aggrieved is something of a fools errand.

[@sarahogborn8024]

I always lean more towards Eowyn, only because I think she gets more character development and time than Arwen does, so I feel like I know her better, but I don’t feel that I can pick one over the other because I think they both bring important things to the story. I like the contrasting portrayals of two women who are both brave in vastly different ways. I love the journey that Eowyn goes on of realizing the reality of war and the devastation that follows it, even if you are fighting for good things. She is brave to go into battle and to fight along side her people and we get one of the best cinematic moments ever!!!!! (I AM NO MAN) And on the other hand, Arwen portrays a steady and sincere inner bravery as she stands up for her right to stay in middle earth and to love Aragorn. I think she shows true inner strength of will and bravery that should not be overlooked for those in favor of the visually “cool” picture of a girl bravely running into battle. To quote Liv Tyler, “You don’t have to put a sword in her hands to make her strong.” So I think that both characters are perfect in their own ways and both contribute greatly to the telling of the story!

[@billwithers7457]

People claiming Tolkien is to credit for the screenwriters success are woefully mistaken. The members of the fellowship did not volunteer to help Frodo. They were appointed. Aragorn for men, Gimli for dwarves, Legolas for elves. Further, Boromir was just tagging along, since he was just going back to Minas Tirith, and Gandalf was going to go with him at some point. The screen writers took a much less compelling scene and made it more compelling by their declarations that they would have Frodo's back.

[@paryanindoeur]

Between Eowyn and Arwen, Eowyn is by far the better written, more developed, and more important character. Tolkien intended it that way, and though Peter expanded Arwen's role with the films, she still does not challenge Eowyn in importance. I still love the romance between Arwen and Aragorn in FotR extended edition. Along with the scenes with Galadriel, it shows us the deepest connection to the magic of the previous Ages of Middle-earth... and you don't need to know that to feel it.

[@sabineb.5616]

I appreciate the effort to analyse the LOTR movies without constantly lamenting that they inferior to the books. I absolutely love the books. But I also love LOTR Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy. Yes, I wish that he had not changed the narrative so much. But he has accomplished the daunting challenge of creating a magic cinematic version of Tolkien's Middle Earth. I also think that Jackson improved the developmental arc of some characters and made them more interesting. This is most certainly true of Legolas and Gimli. But I also prefer Jackson's Boromir and Aragorn to the Aragorn and Boromir of the books! And Jackson assembled a wonderful cast! I simply cannot imaging a better Gandalf, a more credible Gollum or a more sinister Saruman! I am a bit sad that Tolkien's son Christopher did not like the movies. I actually heard that the Tolkien family liked Ralph Bakshi's aborted and incomplete LOTR venture from 1978 better! Maybe, their roles as torch bearers of their father's body of work prevented them to realize that the LOTR movies are artworks in their on right. I can understand, though, that they didn't like the Hobbit trilogy.

[@TrollDragomir]

I so much preffered the chronological order of events presented in Two Towers movie over the book, for the reasons you explained here. The battle of Helm's Deep happened in the first third of the book, and then it only carried on with Frodo and Sam pretty much. Quite anticlimactic in comparison.

[@elizabeths4371]

As with all of the heroic characters in LOTR, Arwen and Eowyn demonstrate love, devotion, self-sacrifice and honor in their own individual ways and both are equally valid.

[@powerofberzerker9487]

I love them both. But Arwen's beauty is just too precious.

[@theeightbithero]

Eowyn is my favorite of the two. She goes from the feminist who fears the cage, yet honors the will of the king, to a girl in stark rebellion riding out to battle when she really should honor the King possibly the remaining last of royalty. There she proves her metal. Being the only person who could have done this she defeats the witch king, and at the end she proves that she really can make war as a woman, but she also sort of learns that war is the province of men. Sensibility takes her and she never rides to battle again. I like this because it shows he hero woman in a light that I’ve never seen before or since. She kicks butt, but grows to appreciate the conventional wisdom of her family and the land.

[@davids2368]

I think in any discussion about Arwen in the films you have to bring up the confusion Peter Jackson felt about the character as well. PJ wanted Arwen to take on a more active action oreintated role in the story (which is a good idea in theory as Arwen doesn't have much to do in the books) so she takes Glorfindels role taking Frodo to Rivendell. I don't think I'm wrong in saying this choice recieved some backlash from fans as it "betrayed the character". Now, Arwen was meant to be in Helms deep and presumably there would be more of a solid affirming of the love Arwen and Aragorn feel for each other in that scene. Also Aragorn is no longer thinking about other possibilities. Arwens helms deep scenes were cut however and I think this cut creates a big gulf between the audience and Arwen as her resolution to be mortal aren't really followed up on visually and she's just not present for the biggest moments of the 3 films. So I think PJ changing plans halfway through negatively effected the depth of the character and how well her story is presented on screen. Not that they did a bad job, it just could've been more clearly defined

[@jgtmtg]

Dang I never realized how good LOtR looks in black and white

[@fornamnefternamn1532]

Interesting. Gives me something to think about. When it comes to your question, in the books I feel Éowyn has a more interesting arc. But for the movies, they made a good job elevating Arwen's character. However, both characters serve like some sort of tool for Aragorn's arc and I guess that is one way to view them. 🤔

[@sunilsolanki]

Truly wonderful 3 videos on LOTR. Subbed! This film looks even more beautiful in black and white. How did you get that version???

[@dean6412]

Arwen, without a doubt. She is faithful to Aragorn and truly admirable as a character. Eowyn seems contrived to me.

[@Zelda2467]

Eowyn. She has an essential role in the story. Arwen doesn't do much. She's just a passive object

[@blakedavison2171]

I like the idea of Eowyn more, given her fearlessness and courage, but I prefer Arwen in the end. She’s best for Aragorn, and seems more well-rounded. I’m talking about them like they’re my friends.... :’)

[@TheDreadlockDogMan]

Thank you. Wonderful!

[@keyboarddancers7751]

New Line needs to release a black and white edition of the extended trilogy.

[@LukeQuineFilms]

Throughout all my experiences with LOTR - since seeing them in the cinema when I was 6 or 7 years old, to watch them all without fail every single year since, I have always really disliked Eowyn. I can’t really put my finger on why, but in general I find her to be almost superfluous to the main story - I see her more as an obstacle on Aragorns true path to love with Arwen, whom I see as a far more compelling character in her own right also... ps: SUBSCRIBED. Brilliant video.

[@MissesSniffles]

I LOVE Arwen! She’s so strong and brave. I know eowyn is too but I just really feel for Arwen

[@griffinwalker3889]

Eowyn. Arwen may be super important to the future of Gondor as she marries Aragorn and thus more important to the fate of Middle-Earth. BUT, Eowyn has so much more to do in the story and way more development as a character.

[@GTKreations]

You served some tea to those commenters

[@jason7671]

Eowyn represents something more real. I different take on what is going on inside Rohan including it’s leadership of Theodin and Aragorn. Arwen was a reminder of Elvish influence and was important to the livelihood of Aragorn but otherwise played no seemingly strong role to represent any themes are major parts of the plot.

[@EmmaParvin1320]

E O W Y N Also - phenomenal vid.

[@pizzadohpaz]

Look, I love both women as characters. I think they each have opposite but equally strong courage. But your question was "which one was written better" so I have to conclude with Eowyn. She without a doubt has the larger story arc and more complex character development (books and movies). I could go on about why, but that would take forever and no one will read this anyways, so here I will leave it.

[@nfgames8322]

Nice video!

[@kathysantersero8690]

Arwen's actions mirror those of the Fellowship - she isn't passive, she is choosing to place her faith, to stand back and trust in the steadfastness of the members of the Fellowship. The film manages to convey the weight of her decision and the consequences she accepts, which, considering the internal focus, is remarkable. Eowyn's struggle is with herself and her role - also well done in the film, but she lacks the maturity of Arwen and there are moments when she comes across as a little whiney- I don't think that is exactly what the director intended.

[@matthewarant377]

How does it maintain tension when it has offered so much resolution?

[@webbchi]

I would be grateful for any information on the audio source of this somewhat off key version of Howard Shore's original composition!

[@ashton6700]

Can I ask, what music/mix did you use in this video? It's excellent, and I would love to know what it is.

[@meaningofthings]

To be honest, many people ask this and I never answer, but what the heck. Thanks for asking so politely! Unfortunately, I custom-edit and remix most of the music in my video essays, changing tones and frequencies and tempos to create a new version... meaning that the keys/tones/tempos don't really exist anywhere else. However, I do love that people enjoy these versions of the original score in my videos enough to ask!

[@ashton6700]

@@meaningofthings Thanks so much, man. You're videos are excellent, keep making them!

[@sophiejones7727]

Actually I quite agree with your decision not to mention Tolkien's contribution much. After all: he didn't make up this stuff either. Nor is it very likely that he had more than a surface-level awareness of what he was doing as he wrote. Like more than a few other authors, his writing process was instinctual and compulsive. While Tolkien deserves credit for putting the components together to form something beautiful: he did not make the components. His inspirations are not well-known to most people, but that hardly means that he should be given credit for things that he decidedly did not invent. The Ring of the Nibelungs was a huge source of inspiration for the story of Lord of the Rings specifically: unsurprising since Tolkien also made a translation of part of that epic manuscript. Éowyn vs. Arwen is a dumb setup. Éowyn is a main character while Arwen is a side-character: even with the extra stuff they gave to her in the movie. She was never intended to be a main character in the narrative, and so she doesn't get the depth of characterization that a main character would. However, one of the best parts of Tolkien's writing is that even the side-characters seem quite real and complete. For this reason, it's still a dumb question to ask which is better. That depends on who you are. Arwen is the proper love-interest for Aragorn: hands down. There is no competition. But is Éowyn a great person? absolutely. She deserves her heroine status, and is an excellent choice to reclaim Ithilien from Sauron's forces. So, I'll answer your question with a question: why do you feel there's any need to declare one better than the other?

[@meaningofthings]

Thanks for your thoughts! To answer your question... Arwen, Galadriel, and Éoywn are the three female characters that have the most impact on the film. That being said, Galadriel is more so a plot device than a fully fleshed out character, and in my interpretation, both Arwen and Éowyn are fleshed out characters (Arwen more-so than people often claim). Being that there are only a handful of important female characters in the film, and being that Éoywn was introduced in the Two Towers, I was interested to see how people connected with the two and how they didn't. I feel that the conversation has been insightful and intriguing. The only difference that keeps me from asking the same question about two male characters is simply that there are many different, less-than obvious combinations that one could make. Thanks again for your comment and for watching. Cheers!

[@sophiejones7727]

@@meaningofthings I wasn't really reacting to the fact that they were female. It simply seems to me that asking people to choose which is "better" defeats the purpose of contrasting them. They are very different, and that fact enhances the story significantly. But for that very reason, it seems to me wrong to classify one as better than the other. To me the contrast between them is all about the reality of love versus the fantasy of it. Arwen understands that love is a choice one makes, often a hard choice. Éowyn sees love as wish-fulfillment, escape, magic. Arwen's perspective is more mature, but Éowyn's immature perspective isn't a reason to consider her a worse character: she is younger. I completely agree that Arwen is characterized better than most people realize. My test for whether a character is adequately fleshed out is this: could I buy/make this person a birthday present? Both characters pass the test. Even characters Tolkien gave much less time to in the books pass that test (Haldir, Glorfindel). That's part of why his world feels so real. Yet, Éowyn is more present in the narrative than Arwen. For that reason, almost everyone is going to prefer her unless they have some specific reason to sympathize with Arwen (like having made a similar choice). In addition, Éowyn is human and Arwen is an elf: a creature fundamentally alien to us. To really relate to elves, you have to study the languages Tolkien made for them (and in doing so you will inevitably learn the entire rest of the mythos). Most people are just never going to do that, and that is completely fine. However, it does mean that hardly anyone is going to consider Arwen a better character than Éowyn if all they've read is Lord of the Rings. However, that is an artificially narrow perspective: because Tolkien intended for his entire mythos to be taken as one item. The books we know as The Lord of the Rings were more an accident of publishing than a series in the conventional sense. Unwin & Unwin wanted to capitalize on the success of The Hobbit, and had a paper ration to deal with. They managed to convince, cajole, and bribe Tolkien into fleshing out the most intrinsically compelling part of his vast mythos in three books people would actually read. Nowadays, a good portion of Tolkien's notes have been edited and published by his son into The Silmarillion, Sauron Defeated, The Road Goes Ever On, The Book of Lost Tales etc. But this took a long long long time, so most people have no idea that this stuff exists. While those nerdy enough to watch the DVD extras are surely aware that the languages are not just made up: most of them are probably still unaware that there are actual courses one can use to learn to write in them and entire sites dedicated to them. Nor would they put the time in to learn. That is of course perfectly fine: but none of those people will ever be able to relate to Arwen. So, from the perspective of an average person: Éowyn will always be the better character. But from the perspective of someone who has studied the languages and lore extensively: the idea of calling one better than the other is absurd, because both of them were absolutely crucial to the story.

[@meaningofthings]

​@@sophiejones7727 These are good points, and your examination of their contrast is insightful. Thanks for sharing.

[@sophiejones7727]

​@@meaningofthings phew, I'm glad it made sense! Namarië, elen síla lumenn' omentielvo! (Farewell, may a star shine upon your path!)

[@TheMinarus]

Arwen definitely although she is not developed super well, she is much more compelling of a character and less cliche in my opinion

[@axelmadsen5822]

We have reached a new level of Intertextuality. Where KZbin videos that reference films cite other KZbin videos that reference films.

[@NScott45]

could you disclose what font you are using ? it's awesome !

[@meaningofthings]

I can disclose! Futura (and its many variations)

[@5BBassist4Christ]

Challenging question at the end. I've always liked Arwen more than Eowyn, but if I'm honest, she's a pretty bland character. Eowyn has motivation, ambition, purpose, and everything else that makes a character great. Arwen is just there. Yeah, she serves well as a motivation for Aragorn and a counter to her father's view of the world, but she frankly does not stand on her own. If you removed Aragorn from the plot, Arwen is completely worthless, where as Eowyn hardly changes at all. In that sense, Arwen is completely dependent on another character. Even in her "motivation for Aragorn", it is all more of a romantic motivation, where as she could have been more: -somebody who encouraged Aragorn to go with Frodo, to unite the people of MiddleEarth, to restore the throne of Gondor, to have faith in himself. The scenes of Galadriel helping Frodo up and encouraging him to stay strong would be a good method to have built Aragorn's and Arwen's relationship. When Boromir confronts Aragorn about "not having any faith in your own people", a flashback of Arwen praising the potential virtue of mankind would make her a more compelling character. When Gandolf died, a flashback of Arwen telling Aragorn that the people of Gondor needed him to lead them could have given him the motivation to lead the remainder of the fellowship, seeing that their leader was gone. When Merry and Pippin got taken, a flashback of Arwen playing with the hobbits would be a compelling motivation for him to go rescue them. In these senses, she's not just a romantic interest to Aragorn, but somebody who's shaping his character. (not that flashbacks should always be used, but because she's not on the journey with them then it's hard for her to play a part in his story without them.)

[@joramhartmann7101]

Awsome Video

[@odinsboss117]

Eowyn. Hands down. Arwen is cool and all, but eowyn is a character who resonates with you because shes an underdog. Arwen is just too distant from the human experience for me

[@rkwatchauralnautsjediparty7303]

2:57 - Wait, is the wizard dude alive? I never saw him in that white robe in the first movie so it must be from later. I thought he died in the cave; maybe it's a flashback? The first one was really long and I didn't finish the series.

[@NobleVagabond2552]

By not thoroughly watching these 3 films I only have 1 thing to say You fucked up

[@Aleksey.Yero.SS.Araujo]

i like Galadriel !

[@meaningofthings]

We can't forget her. You'd say you prefer her character to Arwen and Eowyn?

[@Aleksey.Yero.SS.Araujo]

@@meaningofthings indeed - she is way more impactful to Frodo than the other two. Not to mention her first encounter with the fellowship marked a moment for all the characters.

[@meaningofthings]

@@Aleksey.Yero.SS.Araujo Good observation about Frodo -- Galadriel plays a greater role in his arc for sure. Also, please say hi to the Illusive Man for me?

[@Aleksey.Yero.SS.Araujo]

@@meaningofthings Illusive Man? sorry i dont follow !

[@meaningofthings]

​@@Aleksey.Yero.SS.Araujo Is your profile pic not the Cerberus logo *from Mass Effect?* Or am I mistaken?

[@frodoswaggins2885]

I love this

[@najurinajuri]

It's nice to hear the technicalities, but since you left behind the books entirely, there's a sort of void... The last book and movie are quite similar, you should go back to involving a little from tolkien. With the first video, I cried. With this one I was cooking at the same time

[@Siegbert85]

Eowyn of course. Arwen is barely written at all.