Weird Magic: Selvala and Panglacial Wurm

I'm convinced panglacial wurm only exists to create 'Judgebreaker' questions and serves no other purpose.
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[@tysonfontanez]

Panglacial Wurm is my favorite card because it's the stupidest thing I have ever seen and there's no reason for it's existence except as an extremely conditional gotcha moment

[@aidancox5481]

It has a home in my Archelos landfall edh deck, because sometimes you just need a big idiot to slap folks with And it's also hilarious

[@lare290]

@@aidancox5481 "yea lemme just crack an evolving wilds and oops what's that? a wurm just happened to drop out of my deck!"

[@Sheriff_K]

Reminds me of Cheatyface.. lol 😅👌🏼 It’s a cute card in my Wurm Tribal deck

[@calebskillin2694]

no way yo! late game ramp spell? chuck a wurm at ur opponents

[@Kalenz1234]

I understand why they did it. Thematically it's a pretty good card. A green card that gives you +1 in card advantage but only in form of a creature. They just didn't think about the rules implications of casting a spell, during a search effect that could be paid with convoluted and non-deterministic mana abilities.

[@cloaking111]

"And yet the judge now has to make a ruling on intent" Was it intentional? Yes. What was the intent? To call a judge over to our table and give them a headache

[@Jay-rb5pg]

How to get ejected 101

[@Sheriff_K]

I’ll allow it.

[@ahoyturtle]

Game Loss and a warning for Disruptive Behaviour.

[@Essentially_Nobody]

Damn, nobody calling out this cheater. The forest came into play untapped even when he cracked an evolving wilds! 0:16 and 1:25

[@DXYS95]

That's the point. The Selvala/Panglacial Wurm interaction is just a decoy to distract your opponent and the judge from the real cheat

[@piercearora7681]

@@DXYS95 Lol

[@karlcarpenter771]

My Selvala deck in commander may do this pretty regularly. Given the extra opponents that 6 untapped forests could theoretically be closer to 3 or 4 untapped forests. Add the excessive land tutors and Selvala in the command zone there is like a 85% chance this could happen every game in the first few turns.

[@ryanburkett949]

Just tap sevala before you crack the fetch to see how much mana you get as well as all your options. Then crack the fetch and weird situation is dodged.

[@LegendLeaguer]

@@ryanburkett949 boring

[@karlcarpenter771]

@@ryanburkett949 it's not that you could dodge the weird situation, it's that it's incredibly abusable in commander. Personally I been thinking about cutting the panglacial Wurm out of the deck because it's not too good other than being a weird card.

[@MooseMoosesMeese]

@@karlcarpenter771 but why make a deck functional when it can have panglacial wurm

[@XoIoRouge]

@@karlcarpenter771 I've been thinking about adding a Panglacial Wurm cuz I don't try hard when I play EDH. Ever heard of casual? Last I checked, a 7/9/5 Trample that doesn't cost a resource from the hand AND thins the library isn't that bad!

[@timothymclean]

So to summarize, if I haven't screwed something up, the order of operations here is: 1. Activate Terramorphic Expanse. 2. Start searching your library. 3. "While searching your library," try to cast Panglacial Worm. 4. Activate Selvala's Parley ability as a mana ability, which it is. 5. Reveal the top card of your library. 6a. If nonland permanents were revealed, add [G] to your mana pool, gain 1 life. 6b. Each player draws a card, because Parley. 6c. Put Panglacial Worm into play and skip step 7. 7a. If nonland permanents were not revealed, skip step 6 and get into a rules argument. 7b. Return Panglacial Worm to your library. 8. Finally, finish searching your library. 9. Put a Forest into play. 10. Shuffle your deck. 11. Agree never to use Selvala and Panglacial Worm in the same deck ever again. What a weird combo.

[@Veiphiel]

But you got information about what card is next to draw it. If you don't like the card, you can wait to shuffle after searching

[@dylansylvester4719]

9. Put an island into play*

[@darkjak565]

I'm a sucker for the convoluted inner machinations of MTG Rules and this is one of my favorites. Love the commentary too, gave me a chuckle.

[@johncameron1935]

Moral of the story, as soon as you see a Selvala on the field you Pithing Needle Panglacial Wurm.

[@androkguz]

Selvala only needs a "use this ability only any time you could use an instant" and we are dandy. Put that same quote on every single mana ability that doesn't produce a 100% predictable result

[@doombybbr]

or just ban Wurm

[@androkguz]

@@doombybbr why ban wurm? It's only a problem in fringe cases and its far from op and it's a very interesting mechanic that should be reused

[@snowboundwhale6860]

You mean as a sorcery right?

[@briansilva3765]

@@androkguz You would be surprised by how many card games ban problem cards that would require future proofing other cards for it to exist, it's just not worth it, even if the card is bad or would never see real play, watch a video on banned Yugioh cards to see how many they banned for this.

[@fafdsfr]

@@snowboundwhale6860 Nope, even as an instant that would work because you can't cast an instant while searching your library

[@johnadams4427]

This was ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO MORE CORNER CASE CONTENT I CRAAAAAAAAVE THE RULES WEIRDNESS MY DUDE!!

[@black7594]

This man is down bad for rules lawyering

[@heatedchill6632]

“Don’t go trying this in tournaments” listen, my ADHD already decided that I was for me 😂😂

[@ryangainey94]

What's so weird about this card is that this is the only card I know of that actually lets you do something in the middle of doing something else. Ordinarily if you cast a card like Barals expertise to bring an archaeomancer from your hand into play, the expertise has finished resolving the stack so it's already in your graveyard so you can target that card with your archaeomancer. But it's not like you can pick your target from archaeomancer before the expertise hits your graveyard because the etb trigger from archaeomancer doesn't happen until the expertise finishes resolving. But... Panglacial Wurm is allowing you to cast a card in the middle of an action resolving, specifically the action of you searching your library. Normally people can't interact with that -- it has to happen before the search begins or in response to the trigger that allows you to search the library. So here's what I'm thinking. Suppose you crack your evolving wilds and then you try to resolve Panglacial Wurm. Let's assume you have enough mana to cast it, so that's not a problem. When you cast Panglacial Wurm before you finish searching your deck, does it create a Stack, or can it not be interacted with? Assuming it creates a Stack, what happens if someone then responds with, say, an Opposition Agent? What about an Aven Mindcensor? What about Vedalken Orrery into a Mindlock Orb that tells people they can't search libraries? And what if that happens while you have MULTIPLE Panglacial Wurms in your deck, but you can only cast one at a time as opposed to having a Vedalken Orrery yourself?

[@tychozzyx9439]

I actually looked up the rulings on the card thanks to this comment. The wurm goes on the stack, but does not resolve. In the case of Evolving Wilds, Wurm, mana ability, Time Stop my reading shows the following: the first three steps go per the video. The wurm goes on the stack, but doesn't resolve until you find your land. After the wilds completes, you get your land, then priority passes around with the wurm on the stack. Time Stop goes on, resolves (I'm mono green, how would I stop it?), and exiles the stack leaving Panglacial Wurm exiled for all its hope and effort

[@Kasamori]

I guess Opposition Agent could cast the opponent's Wurm if they accidentally find it and have enough mana

[@tychozzyx9439]

My reading of Opposition Agent would suggest the player being controlled casts the wurm during the search which means the agent's controller decides if the searching player casts it. When casting, the controlling player also decides how the searching player pays for it. After the search, the searching player owns the wurm on the stack and will control it when it resolves. Good way to use sacrifice/discard for mana abilities to hose your opponent or at least to color lock them out of the remainder of their turn

[@Kasamori]

@@tychozzyx9439 Nevermind, you are probably right

[@gozer33]

@@tychozzyx9439 this makes a lot of sense. The ability let's you cast it early and the wurm goes on the stack but everyone still has to pass priority for it to resolve.

[@torchofgenesis]

This is such a funny interaction. I learned about it a little while back with the Magic Iceburg. It has extra relevance to me because I actually already have Panglacial Wurm in my Selvala, Explorer Returned deck. She's the commander of my Wurm Tribal list. XD

[@Ivan_Ooze]

some times it feels like you need a magic lawyer

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

the comprehensive rules looks like your typical 200 page legal document.

[@seandun7083]

What happens when you try to use it to cast a panglacial wurm on top of your library? Is that also rewound because it becomes illegal or can you just not do so in the first place? If it is on the top of your library and you search during an opponent's turn, can you cast it using bolas's citadel? Great video btw

[@Hankathan]

Once you start casting Panglacial Wurm it moves to the stack, so it is no longer on top of your library. For the second one, I _think_ you can't pay life for it because Bolas's Citadel says "If you cast a spell *this way"* and you're not casting it with Bolas's Citadel's ability (because normal timing permissions apply). Very good question!

[@Mekmassimochannel]

@@Hankathan But, does it move to the stack of the casting cost havent been paid yet?

[@armogohma2]

@@Mekmassimochannel Yes. You can only activate Selvala while searching if it's to cast Panglacial Wurm, so by definition he has already left the library. This is because players aren't supposed to get priority at all when searching, but the Wurm and only the Wurm necessitates that in order to function.

[@HeavyMetalMouse]

This is covered in Rule 601.2, the process of casting spells. While you are searching your library, Panglacial's ability allows you to cast it from your library. To cast a spell, you reveal it from the zone it is in (usually your hand, but in this case, from your library), put it on the stack, and pay its costs. The Panglacial is no longer in your library, and is on the stack. You now, as part of that casting, activate mana abilities and pay the costs of the spell. You activate Selvala, while still being able to see your library, and are thus able to know what you are going to reveal as the new top card of that library. It is a very strange interaction, certainly one I'd never thought of before, but it's cool that the game is set up to be able to handle it. :)

[@MegaJoka100]

But you can draw the second card of your library with slvala. Have some kind of future aight effect on play, that allows casting from the top of your library. Try to cast that card. Use Sylvala and fail to get the necessary mana. Now the spell goes from the stack, back to the top of your library and you end up with the second card from the top in your hand.

[@braiden4561]

fish: dont play this nic fit players: dont threaten me with a good time

[@hellostrangers7016]

Bro you have quickly become one of if not my favorite MTG based KZbin channel. Thanks for the great content my guy!

[@MasterHigure]

This is the reason Charmed Pendant is restricted to only activate as an instant. How they could have such forethought back in Odyssey and then completely fail as recently as C16 is beyond me.

[@FFKonoko]

Magic designers aren't a hive mind, different ones can foresee different things.

[@MasterHigure]

@@FFKonoko No, but each and every card is looked at by very many eyes during development and prior to release, and at least one pair of those eyes caught Charmed Pendant, and after that a lot of eyes have looked at charmed pendant and presumably reflected on the activation restriction. None of the eyes that looked at Selvala caught it, even though there ought to be some overlap.

[@alexandrebelanger8808]

Oh I love panglacial wurm! I use it in my karametra deck because when I cast a creature, I can cast panglacial wurm while looking for a land which gets me another land! hilarious card :^)

[@kisukebomb3750]

I include Panglacial Wurm in Commander Decks just because it's fun seeing confusion when I cast something while searching for a basic land. I had someone Opposition Agent that deck and they did it to me... that was a confusing game

[@gregorycahill1326]

Add Archmage's Ascension to the mix, and you have a crazy game interaction

[@RoosterCogburnPhD]

"While" is a fucked up word in any phase- based card game. Yugioh has also instilled a fear in me of "when".

[@malachihormel7994]

_When_ it says _you can_ you probably can't. Guardian Eatos learned that the hard way.

[@cat_the_e]

"Ferb, I know what we're doing today"

[@ScorpioneOrzion]

Pila pipa with this also gets very weird, and if you somehow can untap selvala duing the paying for mana abilities you can deck everyone before the spell is even cast.

[@faceoctopus4571]

I can not find "Pila pipa" on gatherer.

[@ScorpioneOrzion]

@@faceoctopus4571 ment Pili-Pala

[@faceoctopus4571]

Are you saying something along the lines of Pili-Pala and selvala in the graveyard with a necrotic ooze on the battlefield? Maybe throw in some Leyline of Abundances for good measure

[@vincentproud6589]

The way I see it; there's a huge difference between intentionally taking an illegal action and intentionally taking an action that might become illegal. Like trying to cast Volcanic offering with Hinata

[@keiclera6596]

I'm loving this channel, and the editing

[@benyseus6325]

“Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant.” Problem SOLVED, à la LED.

[@dxjxc91]

New life goal: try this at a tournament.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

Next thing we know after you do this wotc bans the worm in all formats for being too annoying for judges to deal with

[@hiimemily]

Selvala's weirdness with regards to other rulings could be fixed by making her ability only work at instant speed, rather than usual mana source timing. Panglacial Wurm's weirdness could be fixed by nuking it from orbit.

[@joelhaggis5054]

Also, if you have Archmage Ascension, you can tap Selvala to draw a card (as a mana ability), Ascension replaces the draw and lets you search your library (as a mana ability), at which point you can cast Panglacial Wurm (AS A MANA ABILITY)

[@adamxue6096]

So if you have the maximum 4 Panglacial Wurms in a non-commander deck and say have Selvalas and 2 copies of Selvalas (Through certain copy effects to get around the pesky legend rule), you can, for some gosh forsaken reason, attempt to cast Panglacial Wurm on 4 separate occasions all chained in one another, the first "just as something you do while searching" but the others will be literally as a part of mana abilities I... I am not, I don't even *know* if this makes any sense wtsoever, but like, somebody ought to do this to a poor judge I think you will definitely be disqualified immediately, but like, not after sending everyone else in the room into probably a coma

[@nolanwright3949]

I would argue even with intent to put out this board state and such it isn't cheating. No illegal actions were took no rules were broken therefore its not cheating. In my mind an illegal game state is different from an illegal action.

[@Hankathan]

I absolutely love this video! I'm sure the algorithm will return if you keep it up!

[@homelessperson5455]

I say if it becomes illegal due to rng, it's perfectly fine to do.

[@93izak]

All I hear is, get those cards, and make the judges go crazy

[@DerHody]

Can you do a video on scenarios where you opponent already lost the game without knowing it? e.g. Tainted remedy and splicing Roar of Jukai on arcane spells. Since the life loss through the healing counts as paying a cost, there is no window of interaction for you opponent.

[@VaSoapman]

turn0: Protean flash CDH At least if no one is running any freecast counterspells.

[@DerHody]

@@VaSoapman you said it yourself. The opponent could do something. In my example isnt even a window where the opponent could react, since its paying a costs for a spell that kills him.

[@rookermtg9321]

Tainted Remedy Roar of Jukai (and other cards like it) is such a hilarious idea for a kill. It reminds me of not ever having a chance to kill an opponent's creature when they sac it to village rites. It is gone, and the death ability is on the stack before I get priority. This is better, though, since it kills players instead of creatures...

[@purpleganja2]

You can only slice it once per arcane spell. it's only 5 life loss, not necessarily a game win.

[@rookermtg9321]

@@purpleganja2 But if you got all 4 in hand or already got the opponent low on life...

[@justcausee]

Your profile pic is one of my favorites from magic. Most metal bird man thingy in all of mtg.

[@dero4378]

cheating is BREAKING THE RULES. What this is, is an exploit which might be considered not allowed to use, if it is considered not allowed to use and the player uses it on purpose then yes, it would be cheating, but otherwise, an exploit is an exploit.

[@djelibaebi]

u_u quality rules interactions kinda wanna browse ur whole uploads now

[@alphonse2234]

Sees disclaimer. Immediately goes to try in the next tournament.

[@gelusvenn5063]

Panglacial wurm is such a bizarre freaking card. I don't know who was like "What if I was searching through my library and I just got to go 'Oh, yeah! While I'm *in here* ...' about another unrelated card?"

[@lukelambert78]

i dont know why im here, or where i am, but i like watching these so much!

[@Tuffbunny13]

Now I want to build a Selvala deck just to force this 'ruling'.

[@Loren_Law]

If Panglacial Wurm was made today it would certainly say exile it from your library, you may cast it this turn from exile.

[@benjiboy1337]

I want to do this in a tournament, just to make the judges cry.

[@yungillegiterate]

You can't tell me how to live. I'll do EXCLUSIVELY this interaction at tournaments

[@fordsquared537]

The genies reaction when my wish is for wotc to make Panglacial Worm's ability an evergreen keyword

[@John_Smith_Dumfugg]

I actually just found out about panglacial worm yesterday! Love it lol

[@shewple5801]

this is the most complicated scry ive ever seen

[@MTGCubeTuber]

I love these weird interactions!

[@falcius373]

Keep up the vids, I hope the algorithm shows them to more people.

[@seizan88]

He's right. Kids, don't play stuff like this in tournaments. Instead, simply turn your games into a Turing Machine. That's what the cool kids do these days. ("simply" might be a little stretch and it's also only legacy + vintage legal)

[@deth2munkies]

Is the library a hidden zone if you're currently searching it and thus can see the whole thing? JUDGE!

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

yes. it's being searched by one player, not revealed to the table. your hand is a hidden zone, despite you looking at the whole thing. rule 400.2

[@kuruptelite]

You cannot activate or cast abilities while resolving another ability. You can activate selvala in response to fetching but once you start searching you cannot activate selvala. Which you cannot cast the wurm without searching. In addition you cannot cast the wurm with only 6 mana so the entire scenario is bogus to begin with because the land you are fetching for isn't on the field.

[@lancer827]

From Gatherer: Casting Panglacial Wurm while searching your library follows all the normal rules for casting a creature spell, except for timing (casting the Wurm this way always occurs during the resolution of another spell or ability) and what zone the Wurm is being cast from. The spell goes on the stack. You have to pay the Wurm's mana cost and any applicable additional costs, which means you can activate mana abilities while you're casting the Wurm while you're searching your library.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

You can if they are a mana ability or instant it would just go on the stack resolving first. Also with the 6 mana thing you are declaring that you are casting it which means you have to check if you have the mana to cast it so in the middle of checking to cast you activate Selvala's mana ability which any mana ability is instant speed so normally at the end of the convoluted chain if it goes right you would cast the worm out due to Selvala and have a free mana thanks to evolving wild. But if random chance goes wrong you made an illegal play and you have to rewind to the previous game state if possible that's the entire point of the scenario you either cheat the worm out legally or you and everyone at that pod has information that can not be undone especially considering due to wild's effect you can look at your entire library and every card's placement so when the rewind happens you have a high advantage if the judge does not order you to shuffle. It only becomes a illegal play if by the time you resolve the cast of the worm that you can not and the worm would be the last on the stack. Mechanics of the game can be really complicated at times as Magic is Turing complete meaning it is slower than dialup but you literally can build a deck that is literally a computer and would actually be tournament legal that is how complex the Mechanics get. Again you can declare your intent to summon but then you check if you can summon it especially if you are using it's ability to summon from the deck which you have to show and if you can't the spell fizzles and you rewind to as if you never declared in the first place Like you simply causing it's ability to activate making you show it from your deck as conformation causes a irreversible game state because you know all of the cards before arriving to the position of the worm so when the rewind happens nothing you can do. By no means am i a master at the mechanics hell not even pros or competitive payers are as it is a complicated game but i do know that you can always activate a mana ability at any time if the creature does not have summon sickness as usually they tap to activate and they apply instantaneously meaning no response window at all

[@kuruptelite]

@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena Sorry but you are wrong. Rule 608.2g specifically states that while spells are resolving no player has priority and no abilities or spells may be used until the resolution ends. Therefor you cannot activate mana abilities. If you had enough mana to cast the wurm you can do so because it specifically says you can while searching. Rule 601.2 states that in order to start the process of casting a spell (give intent to cast) the player must first legally be able to cast it to begin with. Therefore you cannot express intent to cast wurm without alrerady having enough mana to cast it which means you would have to activate selvalas effect first and get the mana, which according to the previous rule you are not allowed to do. Video is bogus.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@kuruptelite Or we could just ask a high level judge, also you are seeming to forget that there is a step in when casting a spell you can activate mana abilities to pay for the cost it is literally step 7 of casting a spell. And the legality check checks if you have priority to cast it during that time and the monsters ability says yes you do so it only becomes illegal to even try and cast if you can not pay the cost with a mana ability

[@Sheriff_K]

Panglacial Wurm doing a Sensei’s Divining Top impression 🤪

[@emeraldgreenz]

Abilities that generate mana as a byproduct (i.e. from revealing specific cards from the top card of the deck) shouldn’t be counted as ‘mana abilities’ imo. That card’s not a mana ability, it’s a ‘reveal the top card of the deck’ and ‘draw’ ability. Just because it *can* generate mana doesn’t mean it will. A mana ability *will* always generate mana when activated. I don’t know if this would screw anything up tbh, but honestly I’m more curious if it would.

[@ericevans1148]

I kinda want to do this in a tournament just to get disqualified.

[@sagacious03]

Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

[@foxxygradius7858]

I've always just assumed when a weird corner case like this happens, the Planeswalker bending time and space to has whim has caused some weird shit to happen. If you really want to build your deck around an uncanny interaction, that should be as much part of the game as anything else you might do. (Unless it's something super broken like two cards resulting in an instant win by some obscure arcana. Or even arcane obscura.)

[@skuddstevens]

I feel like intent shouldn't matter here. The advantage gained occurred as a direct result of following the rules for this interaction, so it should be above board to do it. It's also a completely innocuous advantage compared to many of the other contrived but bulletproof interactions in the game of Magic. Any judge that would rule against this as cheating is completely out of their depth and shouldn't be allowed to judge anymore.

[@FFKonoko]

If you count the rules for what to do when an illegal action happens as "following the rules". And yeah, illegal actions happen for this interaction. But deliberately aiming to cause illegal actions SHOULD be illegal, not just for this, but because it leads to confusing and slow play and a whole bunch of other problems. The reason that they can judge it as fine if it just happens matches the idea. But the umbrella clause of intentionally causing illegal actions has way, way more effects. And it's better that it applies here too rather than add special exceptions.

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

@@FFKonoko it's not an illegal action, it's an illegal game state. and it's not even a deliberate fail. never mind you can just cancel the cast regardless of whether or not the mana is possible- casting doesn't force you to use any available mana abilities until successful.

[@Romulus-r6j]

Wait, what's the advantage? Yes, you've seen your draw, but you're shuffling your deck afterwards, meaning you're drawing something else during your draw step. It's would have been the same if you activated her ability before searching the library.

[@devanbrowne8706]

Selvalas ability also draws a card, plus its effect is dependent on the card you reveal. You can check what the top card of your library is while searching before deciding if you want to activate Selvala. This normally wouldn't work because the fetch land's ability would resolve and shuffle your deck before you had a chance to activate Selvala, but because you're casting a spell (Panglacial Wurm) *while searching your library*, you can activate Selvala's mana ability in order to pay for the spell.

[@Lukas-qf2uh]

finally, my law degree is useful for something

[@wesleymclain9146]

That sounds like a challenge at the end there

[@carldooley9344]

Kadena cheatyface is my favorite. Silver bordered may not be illegal in your playgroup, but 99 of them certainly are; which is why I use them for card backs in a morph\manifest deck. Leyline of Anticipation, little Ugin, and other cards help to make the deck explode. And then, of course are the opponents whom ask what you used to cast them facedown.

[@Darkflamecrusader]

Okay, but now I want to see how MtGo handles this.

[@Reece8u]

So what im hearing is that you shouldnt be able to tap for mana while searching the deck, thereby requiring you to tap for extra mana before searching the deck and allowing you to play panglacial wurm normally without any weird interactions.

[@ValorGlory]

Selvala is the real problem, she isn't guaranteed to produce mana each time you tap her but her ability also acts like a mana ability, which allows this problem to occur. If they had simply fixed the wording on the card, either Selvala or the Wurm, they could have stopped this headache from happening.

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

i'm so glad they don't pander to the least common denominator in every instance and dumb down and ruin cards because some people can't handle a game with tens of thousands of pieces and a 200 page rulebook. this isn't Hearthstone.

[@Reece8u]

@@TheJacklikesvideos I don't see selvala as the problem because in every other situation, you can tap mana abilities before casting the spell, so selvala isn't a problem anywhere else. Though, I would argue that selvala should have to be tapped before playing any card that would use the mana.

[@shaden489]

I asked my judge told me I should build this commander deck

[@Case2_0]

I mean, mechanically it’s the same thing as scrying.

[@letsmakeit110]

The original companion card

[@anthonywolf943]

two of my most favorite cards I carried that aura in the back of my phone and people always ask me what that picture was.... and I've had a foil panglacial wurm forever it's been folded in half though..... so there's a crease mark

[@rowaned14]

I could be in the wrong here, but in the rules of searching your library you are instructed to "look at" the cards in your library, the order shouldn't change and as stated earlier selvala's mana ability will not be interrupted and can be done during the shuffle. When searching your library, the order of your cards become known by you until the point that you shuffle the library after searching it. Therefore, using the information known from evolving wilds to see whether your top card is a nonland to gain the mana necessary I would consider a valid tactic. Side note: if panglacial wurm happened to be the top card, it would be drawn using selvala's mana ability and you'd have to cast it from hand once the stack has cleared, since it has left the library

[@greatbrandini3967]

Your order won't change, but you always shuffle after searching, and Panglacial can only be cast while searching. Also, if you attempt to cast Panglacial while it's on top, it is removed from your library and placed onto the stack, so the card underneath Panglacial would be the new card on top when Selvala is activated

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

as brandon said, you can't activate selv until the wurm has left the deck.

[@aguilefo]

love your channel!

[@davidhowell1415]

I’m going to go to a tournament just so I can do this. Thanks for the info lmao

[@Colourhasau]

love weird mtg rule conflicts and interactions

[@ProR2D2]

If no one is breaking any rules then calling people "cheaters" is stupid. There are rules in place in order to avoid that. Blaming the person instead of wizards for any lack of rules clarification is wrong. And no, not true everything here is being covered by the rules, otherwise you wouldn't have arrived at that conclution.

[@FishMTG]

ye it's stupid. But it is actually against the rules to purposely create illegal gamestates. Failing to draw for howling mine is cheating for example. This is just a really stupid way of getting there.

[@ProR2D2]

@@FishMTG Thats a very different thing. For example, in magic online there is no "cheating", you can't choose not to draw with howling mine, you're force to do so. If something is not working as intended there, then it is a bug, not a cheat. Same thing here, if you can tap selvala while casting panglacial wurm in mtgo, then it is a bug or it isn't, but not a cheat. Since it is only one specific scenario, then it has to be either always legal or never legal. You can't make a rule based solely on intent in a card game and say "sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't". That's the epidemy of inconsistency and contradiction, and that would mean the rules are ones with the problem, not the person. In magic online, it would crash the client into the 5th dimension as it is trying to read your mind and guess ur intent. Whoever told you that was just plain wrong and didn't know.

[@FishMTG]

@@ProR2D2 luckily we don’t have to worry about mtgo because the game doesn’t display your library in order so you don’t gain an advantage by doing it. Magic Tournament rules require intent in order to be considered cheating. So yeah you literally can have situations where sometimes things are cheating and somethings that exact same thing isn’t, depending on if that player meant to do it or not. Which is why we have judges to make those calls. Hope that helps

[@ProR2D2]

​@@FishMTG Thats not how the rules work. If you flip the top card of your library, either accidently or in purpose, it makes no difference, you get an infraction eitherway. The rules do not care about intent, they care about actions. Same with judges. And if they did care about that, they would be unclear and inconsistent, which I definitely do not agree with even though you seem to suggest is fine. Intent is one of the most difficult things to even understand, let alone know. To say "oh its easy, just check the person's intent" is one of the most arrogant and stupid things that comes out of people's mouth.

[@FishMTG]

@@ProR2D2 idk if you think I'm just pulling this out of my ass but that is objectively not true. This is literally in the rulebook. Go read IPG 4.8 Unsporting conduct - cheating. "The player must be attempting to gain advantage from their action. The player must be aware that they are doing something illegal." "In Magic, cheating is always a deliberate action, or conscious lack of action. There is no such thing as “accidental cheating”. Accidental errors should be handled by the appropriate infractions found elsewhere in the IPG" In other words: the rules literally care about intent. If it's an accident it falls under game play error, if it's on purpose it's cheating. Again this is why we have judges to determine this.

[@uphillwalrus5164]

Whoever designed Panglacial Wurm is going to hell when they die

[@mrosskne]

what's the weird interaction between floral spuzzem and time vault?

[@purpleganja2]

They both waste time

[@epicnerull]

Why is this any different from trying to cast squee from exile or any other card from anywhere?

[@sunname6252]

Maybe I'm just missing something, but wouldn't you only be able to choose to summon Panglacial Wurm once Selvala's mana is tallied? If Fetch Land before Selvala: Begin search, interrupt with Selvala, Selvala's mana resolves, choose to cast Wurm if you now have enough mana, Search Resolves. If Selvala before Fetch Land: Unable to interrupt mana ability so no cracking until it's resolved tmk. Edit: Or is Panglacial Wurm irrelevant and the issue is interrupting a search for the reveal+Draw?

[@greatbrandini3967]

No, the significance of Panglacial Wurm here is that it allows you to cast it DURING the search of your library, being one of, if not the only effect that can be resolved during the resolution of an effect. The other thing you are missing is that mana is not required to be in your pool before casting a spell, as there is a step in the casting process that allows you to activate mana abilities. Typically people float mana before casting due to some effects such as Arbor Elf not technically being mana abilities, but still being required to generate the mana needed to cast a spell, so people shortcut and simply float all of their mana first, then cast their spell

[@purpleganja2]

You need to have priority or be asked for a mana payment to be able to activate mana abilities. Panglacial wurm does just that, asking for a mana payment when you cast it. It is only relevant to try to break the game state; The player could simply activate selvala first to see it they have enough mana before cracking the land. @Great Brandini, small nitpick: Panglacial Wurm allows you to cast it, not resolve it during a search.

[@KatKhan08]

great content, keep up the fantastic work!

[@StuntedSlime]

Mana abilities like that could probably be fixed by adding that they can only be played any time you can play an instant like the card Mana Screw.

[@frogmcribbit8778]

Putting a card on the stack while resolving a spell or an ability in the stack. What could go wrong?

[@purpleganja2]

Many many other cards do it with no problem. What goes wrong is the mana abilities that do something else other than adding mana to the pool.

[@Booklat1]

oh wow, so finally people are giving attention to panglacial

[@Bennisawr]

Panglacial Wurm has ‘may’ for casting, so wouldn’t it technically be an option and not cast it?

[@purpleganja2]

Yes, you don't have to cast it, but the idea is that you can propose the cast up to the point it allows you to use mana abilities to allow you to draw the top card if you want to draw this card then cancel the cast.

[@Bennisawr]

@@purpleganja2 so you can just draw the wurm instead and put it into your hand?

[@purpleganja2]

@@Bennisawr no, if you dont cast it completely, it goes back in the library where it was.

[@Bennisawr]

@@purpleganja2I don’t know why I said that as it states clearly 🤦🏻‍♂️ but thank you for the reply

[@purpleganja2]

All of this is not cheating. Even if you have enough mana sources, you always have the option of not using them to pay for the wurm and abort the cast. The information is gained by the search effect not the wurm, the only thing the wurm does is allowing you to activate mana abilities while searching.

[@PhazonOmega]

Thus why cards with Assist from Battlebond can even exist. If I cannot afford to cast a spell for its full cost, I can still cast it and someone else can pay the portion I couldn't afford. If no one wants to assist me, the spell goes back to my hand. Excited someone else knows about this weird rule on how to cast a "simple" spell in MtG.

[@drachir7146]

On my way to do this at a Tournament every single time

[@mrosskne]

how are you casting the worm before having the mana for it in your pool?

[@greatbrandini3967]

117.1d: A player may activate a mana ability whenever they have priority, whenever they are casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment (even in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability).

[@greatbrandini3967]

Typically, people float mana before casting a spell for the sake of simplicity, and because abilities on cards such as Arbor Elf, Basalt Monolith's untap, or Deathrite Shaman are not mana abilities and thus can't be used during the actual casting process

[@mrosskne]

@@greatbrandini3967 good to know, neither of these comments answer my question though

[@greatbrandini3967]

@@mrosskne forgot to point out that there is a step during the casting process when actual casting costs are paid that mana abilities can be activated.

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

casuals float before casting. note i've been playing 20 years and i still do it because i play casual games.

[@tacobell2009]

This is why mana abilities that affect hidden zones should not be considered mana abilities and should use the stack. You should never be able to draw with your library "open"

[@Lifeagain2123]

Cant cast the worm on the stack while searching because it does not have flash. Also you would not know what is on top of the library because you're supposed to shuffle after you fetch the land. You either dont play magic or cheat normally.

[@Felixr2]

Wow, I'm impressed. Both of those statements are wrong.

[@Uberkist]

If you use Words of Waste to discard a card during Selvala's parley, can you trigger a Madness ability while tutoring with the worm?

[@FishMTG]

It would have to be an opponents Words of Waste but yeah that would work. Just like Panglacial wurm it would go on the stack and resolve once the search had completed

[@TheDevlain]

It gets even better (or worse?). If you do so when panglacial wurm is the only card in your library you can technically lose for drawing in a empty library after moving the wurm from the library to the stack and having to draw a card from parley, but since you did an illegal action you have to rewind the fact that you just have lose to an state based action. Lol

[@diffdimgamerseven9986]

congrats. the time space continuum of the rules has been fucked up

[@caseydorsey4075]

Welp good news is that the only tournaments that this would occur and potentially be problematic is Legacy as Selvala is a commander card and commander isn't sanctioned by DCI and therefore doesn't fall under either DCI tournament rules or the Comprehensive Rules. There are no WotC approved rules for commander tournaments. So folks, go wild! I have yet to see a game store that has actual posted rules for commander games.

[@culturalliberator9425]

Being tactical is not allowed.

[@NKMitch42]

I don't think this should be considered cheating if intentional. It's just a weird synergy. I don't see the problem and any advantage you might gain can backfire if you don't actually want to cast the wurm. The scenario isn't even advantageous.

[@Hanmacx]

To ad Salt to injuries Add Opposition Agent so the Wurm player gets controlled while searching

[@Felixr2]

And then activate the Wurm player's Phyrexian Altar to sacrifice all their creatures as well.

[@entertainmentinc9735]

So if I cast a draw spell while casting panglacial wurm from my library, I get to choose whichever card I desire to draw?

[@ixchel3330]

How will you cast a draw spell while searching library?

[@anthonycannet1305]

Now that I think about it it’s pretty easy to get to that 7 mana exactly requirement, assuming you have access to more than 7 mana, tap all the extra and move phases. The extra mana drains from the mana pool and now you have exactly enough mana plus opponents to equal 7…

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

you can always attempt and decline to succeed.

[@anthonycannet1305]

@@TheJacklikesvideos It's like the fail to find rule, if you're able to cast the spell when you announce that you are, you have to. The way casting a spell works is you announce the cast, then you pay the costs and if you can't pay then you don't cast. So by announcing you're casting the worm you agree to pay the mana if you have enough, and you can only cast it if you would have enough mana to cast. The reason this works is because after activating selvala you *might* have 4 mana, which brings your mana total above the requirement but if you don't generate enough with selvala then you don't have enough mana to pay the agreed amount. If you still had other mana you could use you're basically forced to pay the mana you agreed to pay. You need to have exactly enough that a perfect selvala would get enough mana but if you don't get all the mana you fail to cast.

[@Say_Tin]

okay so i didn't get that at all

[@faceoctopus4571]

Question: I have a Selvala, 1 opponent, and a Banefire (Pretty much any x spell can do this situation though). I have 4 lands, one of which is a mountain. Can I try to cast banefire X=6 until me and my opponent reveal a non land card, and both of us draw cards for each attempt?

[@Kabitu1]

No, as stated on 1:23, becuase Selvalas card draw is not reversible, you don't get to reverse her mana ability the way you would a normal dork, and she stays tapped after the first failed attempt.

[@Sheriff_K]

Brb, adding Selvala into my Wurm Tribal deck.. 🙄😅🙊

[@jakubtesarek2040]

When did the rules changed? 15 years ago when I was playing mtg (yeah, I'm old) you had to have the mana first and then you could cast the spell, not the other way around. So this this scenario couldn't happen. It was impossible not to have the mana you need to cast something because you had to gather it before starting to cast it. So the wurm wouldn't 'return' anywhere. You couldn't tap for mana during searching your library.

[@Felixr2]

Pretty sure this was changed in Sixth Edition (1999). So either you were playing over 23 years ago or someone taught you outdated rules.