Ancient Greece Was a Lot More Violent Than You Think. Here’s Why.

[@WeltgeistYT]

Thank you for watching! If you want to support us, consider becoming a Channel Member by clicking the Join button next to the channel name. Or visit our Patreon... Thank you! -WG

[@jonswanson7766]

Excellent video, these bronzes are perhaps my favorite, they are so beautifully strong that they scared me a little when I first saw them, absolutely in a good way! I think of them as the Marathon men that are referenced by later Greeks. Skoal.

[@hansmemling2311]

Ben je vlaams?

[@nicholasturner7931]

Actually the Greeks wore either a peplos, chiton, or a himation ( cloak). It wasn’t till after Roman colonization did they start sporting the toga.

[@Saber23]

I have an idea stop being so fucking obsessed with Nietzsche and actually read something productive

[@hashkangaroo]

However right your argument may be in most things, your use of the Melian dialogue to support it is wrong. The very fact that the Athenians had to _clarify_ to the Melians at all that they would not respect any moral conventions above the level of pure "might makes right", and more on the level of a casus belli justified "because of the wrong that you have done us", is enough to establish that the Greek world had morals which were not simply "might makes right", and that the mighty Athenians were breaking them. That the Athenians had to explain themselves at all to their soon-to-be victims, that there was any confusion on the Melians' part of this supposedly well-known convention of Greek morality, should tell you something. Athenian conduct in this matter is in line with that of mighty nations in all eras down to the present day, and the fact that they (like all mighty nations after them) had to insist that they were above the rules that those nations lived by is the very proof of those rules' incompatibility with their actions, which would not be the case in a simple "might makes right" morality.

[@orestiskopsacheilis1797]

In fact, 'Plato', is a nickname for 'the broad one'. Because he was a celebrated wrestler in his youth, with broad shoulders and sternum. Yet another occasion in which an intellectual was celebrated for his valor in combat. That been said, it is important to take into account the context. If Greece hadn't been trained in violence sufficiently, we would probably not talk about it today - it would have fallen to the first attempted invasion. By the same token, one could make the argument that 'Ancient Greece was a lot more sexist or less democratic or... than you think'. By today's standards, all these characterisations would be true. But ignoring the context of the times, they would also be misleading.

[@mohamedelnaggar2688]

Sexist or less democratic? Is this all u care about, no one ever believed or believes in the garbage values the west adopt today since dawn of human all empires acted the same, men and violence matter the most.

[@MattyRlufc]

All of human history has been violent. It's strange that we would look back on ancient people's and call them violent when we modern people have 2 world wars and the holocaust just about in living memory...

[@camilosanchez831]

@@MattyRlufcJesus is coming! (Rev. 22:20) repent and believe the gospel

[@MattyRlufc]

@@camilosanchez831 well hand him a tissue.

[@deniscorrea484]

​@@MattyRlufc The video is nonsense. Many tombstones from 'canonical' writers, as Aeschylus and Thucydides, were later memory sites for their names, similar to tombstone to legendary heroes. Even it was a legit tomb, of course Aeschylus would mention the war which he fought and wrote about in his dramas, that was a humble and citizen way of evoking his poetry without actually mentioning it. And Thucydides wrote the Melian Dialogue, which is a unique peace in his work, to criticize the brutality of the Athenians against them. He was denouncing that Athenian policy was about power.

[@luked4043]

WG, have you heard the quote that goes something like: “of the three great tragedians, Aeschylus was in the battle of marathon, Sophocles was old enough to watch the parade, and Euripides was born that day.”

[@жизненный_опыт]

Aeschylus was a hero at the battle of Salamis, Sophocles was old enough to witness it and feel the patriotism as a result of the victory, while Euripides was born on the day of the battle. from a google search

[@tboyz1]

Prophetic in light of our current generation

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Scout：* Is killed after scoring MvP multiple times in a row * His epitaph: "Here lies scout. He ran fast and died a virgin."

[@rumplstiltztinkerstein]

Nice TF2 reference. Not sure if it is very appropriate for this topic though xD

[@duunchannel]

Lol

[@badart3204]

@@rumplstiltztinkersteinin a sense it does though because it reflects the modern world’s value of sexuality above other virtue in a similar way to the Greek value on war. Just like the playwright is only remembered for his war achievements the scout is only remembered for his sexual achievements ignoring the achievements in war or other areas of life

[@rumplstiltztinkerstein]

@@badart3204 this git is into soom big thinkin. My brain hurts.

[@gibmattson1217]

When we say the ancient Greeks, we're often refering to Athens. There were hundreds of different Greek city States but this seems to get overlooked. Nobody says the "ancient Latins" or the ancient Italians; they say Rome.

[@wankawanka3053]

​@@jamelcarpenter327which is weird knowing how different bith of them were from eachother

[@PierreLucSex]

Though the original physicians were not from Athens.

[@AnonymousIdealist]

​@@wankawanka3053Sparta became popularized because of the 300 movie.

[@AnonymousIdealist]

It became popular among people who originally didn't know much about Greek history.

[@lechad8686]

No, not really. When people say Ancient Greece, they really mean Greece and Greek colonies, not just Athens. The Ancient Greeks shared similar values and culture, and even though Athens was the intellectual center one could name a hundred thinkers and intellectuals who weren't born there. To name just mathematicians, Euclid was from Alexandria, Archimedes from Syracusa and Pythagoras was from Samos.

[@Fronzel41]

I'm not sure the example of Aeschylus' epitaph is that revealing; if his soldiering was in some brief clash over farmland with another Greek state, would it have been remembered so prominently on his grave? Might it not be very important that it was Marathon, where "Greece was saved" from foreign invasion by a mighty empire, and not any other battle?

[@ProfessorToadstool]

there is a difference even though you dont like it, there is

[@hughgrection7246]

For modern context consider The Persian/ Greek war as WW2 . The battle of Thermopylae would be the equivalent of storming the beaches at Normandy . That achievement would most likely supersede any other achievements one may or may not had accomplished there after. Especially within the context of a war like society like the Greeks (or Murica)

[@GQBouncer]

The Battle of Marathon symbolized the defence of European civilization against the invading forces of Asia. So, yah, even today, his participation in the Battle of Marathon was more important. Moreover, his plays were significant because it documents things that happened during that war. Additionally, that Battle was physically very taxing on the soldiers. We call it's a "Marathon" today for a run, because he would have fought one battle, and then ran a marathon to fight another one. Compared to writing some plays, I'd say that's more significant. Just my opinion.

[@xxxkueckxxx]

Exactly, his position was not seen as just a soldier in a regular war. He participated in an event that we continue to create stories of. Of course it was worth putting on his grave stone, pro war or not.

[@marcanton5357]

To equate the warrior status with only violence and war seems modernist deconstruction. To ancient people, including Greeks, a warrior had a spiritual, ethical and moral side just as much as skill at arms, completely omitted in your video. The inscription on Aeschylus tombstone is a description of his character through recognizing his status as warrior, in the minds of his contemporaries, if he were to be described as a great playwright, it would mean little to describing his character. You see violence only or focus on violence only because your lens is myopic.

[@NikiforosDim]

A good point. The Spartans who were the most militaristic were thought to be tough but had strict codes of behaviour. There is an anecdote of the Spartans being the only ones who would give up their seats for elders at athletic events

[@john-ic5pz]

moralizing conquest.... that's an interesting concept. spirituality, ethics and morality within the context of killing others to take their stuff seems like praising how well hung the paintings were on the Titanic. while true, does it improve the design of the ship such that it didnt sink? we get what we put out into the world and the Greeks were crushed by the Macedonians in the end....their ethics, etc didnt prevent that end.

[@marcanton5357]

@@john-ic5pz I don't know if you could pick a more inaccurate metaphor or move the goalpost more. I understand you are ignorant about such a thing as metaphysics of war, but maybe you could be convinced that there is a difference between a murderer and a warrior killing someone on the field of battle. If you can't be convinced, there's nothing to discuss since you are stuck on the modernist deconstruction mindset.

[@d0ubtingThom4s]

​@@marcanton5357at least he didn't resort to ad hominem

[@marcanton5357]

@@d0ubtingThom4s You are one of those guys who think being pointed at a lapse of knowledge in a particular subject is a personal attack... Good luck with life.

[@AGamer1177]

Aristotle, a philosopher for his legendary theory on virtue ethics was a mentor to Alexander the Great. Virtue in the Roman sense (Virtus) was tied to the Roman vir, meaning man. Practicing Virtue was practicing Manliness, Courage, Strength, Greatness in spirit. Pursuing wealth, pleasure, fame without regard for virtue made you small-souled.

[@iunnox666]

*makes

[@SpartanLeonidas1821]

Andria = Maniliness & Bravery in Greek 😃 The Hellenic Concepts are everywhere 🇬🇷

[@vaska1999]

Aristotle was Alexander's *tutor*, his teacher.

[@pinchevulpes]

Alexander was the next philosopher in my opinion and his actions ensured the modern world would have the teachings of all the Classic stoics/ philosophers. Without Alexander, Greece is a backwater kingdom, not even greater than the pre Bronze age collapse Myceneans who built arguably better cities than the post Collapse Greeks.

[@pootis4986]

That's why people like Andrew Tate aren't real men

[@alexanderleuchte5132]

Fun fact: Basically everywhere you only get punished for theft if you're getting caught to this day

[@Doo_Doo_Patrol]

You don't get punished for it in America lately.

[@johnchatzis3998]

The difference is that in Sparta you were not punished because you stole but because you were caught stealing.

[@MiorAkif]

​@@johnchatzis3998A consequentialist would see no distinction

[@Db--jt7bt]

If you keep stealing from the same shopkeeper, or if basically everyone steals, then eventually the shop is going to close. Or they’ll hire security to increase the chance that you’re caught. That’s what is happening in America right now; stores are just pulling out of cities with high crime rates, and the ones that are staying are putting more merchandise behind glass and hiring more security.

[@Dan16673]

​@@johnchatzis3998not san fran

[@petrosmaragkos5492]

There is one phrase in Perikles ' Funeral Oration, as documented by Thucydides, that depicts this notion precisely : φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ' εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας our love for what is beautiful, does not lead to extravagance, our love of philosophy does not make us soft.

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

Well written.

[@uristjoyce877]

> ἄνευ μαλακίας He doesn't know.

[@petrosmaragkos5492]

@@uristjoyce877 Σε ποιόν αναφέρεσαι;

[@SpartanLeonidas1821]

Above Malakia!!!! ✊🏻

[@Bobby-er7iz]

It must be noted that Plato himself rejected (at least in some ways) the concept of 'might is right' in his dialogue with the sophists (-> Gorgias).

[@christophersnedeker]

And that's why Nieztche rejected Plato. Also Hesiod rejected I'll gotten gains and injustice.

[@arturhashmi6281]

@@christophersnedeker thats exactly what I wanted to write

[@Nykandros]

He rejected it, but nevertheless the representative of the ideology in Gorgias (Callicles) is the only one in any of his writings to not only fully challenge Socrates; but even remain unrefuted. Socrates has to use the most semantic, "far out" logic at his disposal to even provide a rebuttal against Callicles, who himself isn't even a philosopher; he's an up-and-coming Athenian politician who recognizes the reality of the world. An ambitious Type A personality; the exact opposite of Socrates and his peers.

[@allstarlord9110]

As a Greek i am really proud about the history of our people and i love reading and learning about it, i just wish that more would do the same, and that we maybe could manage to live up to our ancestors name at some point again

[@christophersnedeker]

You do realize all this might makes right shit isn't greek right it's german

[@Eizengoldt]

@@christophersnedekerwhat

[@jung9399]

A bloodline straight from achillies to a hairy gyro shop owner

[@allstarlord9110]

@@jung9399 Fuck yeah🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷

[@МихаилМотузный]

I’m not a Greek, but I totally agree with you on that. If I could have all the time in the world, all I would probably do is read and reread Ancient Greek authors. That’s something only a few nowadays do. Glad I’m not the only one!

[@leoalphaproductions8642]

The whole world was a violent place. You had to be violent, to survive. Go a little further than that, and it was downright deadly. It's nothing short of a miracle that we've made it this far as a species.

[@sherrysyed]

Interestingly enough thought remained that tells us they were not happy with violence as a long term solution

[@parkex]

If someone from the future sees 1940s Europe they would think our “modern” world was very violent too.

[@reallyhappenings5597]

We fight and we fuck. A lot.

[@Perceval777]

The modern world is much more violent, it's just that people in First world countries live comfortably and are ignorant (sometimes willfully) of the strife and suffering that goes on in Africa, Mexico, Central Asia, etc. We have nuclear bombs, chemical and biological weapons, napalm, ICBM, etc. and we have forgotten that more than 50 million people died in WW2 and that most of Europe was in ruins. So I don't see how we are less violent than people in antiquity or the Middle ages, we are simply ignorant.

[@mikexhotmail]

​@@Perceval777Indeed

[@emZee1994]

*Good video, but in the spirit of the topic I think it was misleading to refer to the democratic age of Hellenic Greek as "a golden age". Especially when all the great contemporary Hellenic thinkers of that time all spoke about how democracy was a terrible system and how this was a serious sign of decline, and how they expected to see Greece would fall if there wasn't a serious reform of the culture back to what it was when the city states were first founded. Which was what we today would call a military dictatorship. And then about a century later Athens did actually fall to a much more militaristic Greek power, Macedon. Famously Socrates was a huge critic of democracy and it was by a democratic vote that he was sentenced to death so in the end his death actually proved his argument*

[@georgekosko5124]

The "golden age" of Athens is a historical period widely used and accepted, it's not his own choice. And an age where people complained about having democracy is surely more golden than an age where they didn't have democracy at all.

[@emZee1994]

@@georgekosko5124 The Golden Age of Athens was when Athens created their empire, by subjugating the other Greeks city states via the Delian League. The democratic elements which did or did not exist in Athens at the time aren't really relevant for this title, but American academia has muddied the waters by trying to retroactively associate democracy with Ancient Greece And no, democracy sucks. The Greek City states, and Rome for that matter, achieved their greatness when they were explicitly and intentionally anti-democractic. The Middle Ages also were only able to pull themselves out of the Dark Ages by being anti-democractic. Democracy has also taken Renaissance Europe from one of humanity's greatest cultures, and degraded it to an unsightly failure of modernity. Democracy is the worst system possible, at any time in history

[@georgekosko5124]

@@emZee1994 I hope she reads this.

[@alejandromadrid8075]

​@@emZee1994Great insight. It is American political propaganda that has fabricated a Greece that lends legitimacy to today's "Democracy"

[@ninjawizard3865]

​​​@@emZee1994Interesting though isn't it, that 'Democracy' is praised so highly in the western world.

[@Tyrant98]

Hello, great video! Just a comment on Plato's view of war: Plato's final book, The Laws, might show a shift from the Republic in his attitude to war. From the outset the 'Athenian Stranger' dialogues with a Spartan and a Cretan about how the state should be organised. Plato argues, contrary to the other two men, that the state should not be organised with the 'view to war' but rather to developing loyalty and affection between the citizens. In fact Plato claims that Lycurgus and Minos did not build their states with the view to war but to public virtue. It's interesting that this critique of the war-centric mindset is the first point discussed in the book and Plato also indicates that the virtues that can be displayed in war are limited and depend on the nature of the war and who is fighting it.

[@tadficuscactus]

There can be no society and thus no culture without men strong enough to defend it.

[@badabing3391]

most warrior cultures just adopt the cultures of the decadant societies they conquer. The mongols are famous for this, but to a great extent so did the romans in several instances

[@patriot5550]

Because if Aeschylus didn't fight and win at the battle of Marathon, there would have been no greeks left to write on his tombstone. That's why.

[@dutchhistoricalactingcolle5883]

Humans are violent but also empathetic. It is unrealistic, and skews things unhelpfully, to focus only on either our 'angels' or our 'devils'.

[@lukecash3500]

Some men are simply devils. And they've driven history. So when it comes to human nature you're correct. But when it comes to the world we live in? The devils have normally won, whichever side wins.

[@rumplstiltztinkerstein]

We do what we can to get what we want. It is not about being good or evil

[@lukecash3500]

@@rumplstiltztinkerstein Call it whatever you like. We don't have to like the barbarism of humans or say it's "natural".

[@monkeymoment6478]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@lukecash3500 It is natural. Nature is barbarous, there is no good and evil, no “virtue”, “morals”, or “ethics” in nature. You don’t have to “like it”, it is a fact whether you choose to like it or not. It is not an ideal state of affairs but that is reality and we must choose to orient ourselves around this fact or perish.

[@lukecash3500]

@@monkeymoment6478 Agree with the barbarism? Partake of it? Look I'm somewhat of a Nihilist and Absurdist. So I thoroughly appreciate what you guys are saying. But resigning to Callicles' ethics is no great truth. Ethics is concerned with how things should be, not how they are. Humans are ignorant, violent, capricious savages. This does not mean it is good for them or society to accept this.

[@user-se9uk2py5k]

Excellent video. As a Spanish I have always been impressed by the cult of violence and audacity in the ancient mediterranean, from east to west. Tauromaquia (bull fighting) for example is just a remmant of old mediterranean traditions.

[@fabiodeoliveiraribeiro1602]

Yes. The Greeks considered politically organized violence a necessity in some situations. No. They did not belong to a society that only worshiped violence. This is so true that cities at war declared the cessation of hostilities in order to participate in the Olympic Games.

[@despair2805]

Babe wake up, new Weltgeist video

[@regedya]

he is da best

[@_PanchoVilla]

Let's go! A lot of hype built around this one. This is a tv-cast quality video.

[@ciscornBIG]

Sssshhhh

[@altairwisdom58]

Lol Messi Autism☠️

[@AshourElnagy-w5s]

His not your babe, sweety .

[@Doo_Doo_Patrol]

Have you ever met someone who found Nietzsche and went from a friendly, good natured person to total a-hole and then messed up their life and died young as a result. I have.

[@yunsemree]

i love nietzsche but i think he should be read carefully

[@Doo_Doo_Patrol]

@@yunsemree I'll go with that. It seemed to me that my friend read into what he wanted to read.

[@TaiNguyen-in6xy]

Many people still thought Nietzsche was a nihilist. He wasn't.

[@yunsemree]

@@TaiNguyen-in6xy yeah why exactly is that though

[@TaiNguyen-in6xy]

@@yunsemree can't give you definite reason. but there are many. The Nazis used to use Nietzsche's philosophy as pretext for their actions. And then there are these Hollywood movies/books/articles misrepresent what his books said. Another reason is that his books are written in a vague, open for many interpretations. And oh that popular phrase "god is dead".

[@dorothysatterfield3699]

As Orson Welles's character, Harry Lime, says in the 1949 movie "The Third Man": "In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.” Still, I'd rather have democracy and peace.

[@dutchhistoricalactingcolle5883]

Perhaps Harry Lime had never been to Switzerland.

[@jamesboswell9324]

My thoughts entirely. But of course Harry Lime was a piece of work. A villain who betrayed all his friends and sacrificed everyone who stood in the way of his personal gain. Welles, who apparently improvised Lime's brilliantly memorable and wholly amoral sermon, was also acting in character and presumably not endorsing this opinion.

[@rembrandt972ify]

They still produce cuckoo clocks in Switzerland. They don't still produce Michelangelos in Italy. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[@dutchhistoricalactingcolle5883]

The deeper question here is 'what proof is there that violence produces great art?' Was Sparta not violent? Yet, it did not flower as Athens did. This whole argument is facile and the product of lazy thinking. Perhaps the difference in artistic production between Italy and Switzerland was the result of systems of patronage, rather than the stimulating effect on the arts of violence?

[@dorothysatterfield3699]

@@dutchhistoricalactingcolle5883 I agree with you. Ancient Rome was violent, under both the empire and the republic, but their art was mostly copies of Greek originals. Germany under Hitler was violent, and the art produced during that time is laughably bombastic.

[@dwl3006]

You're not correct about the Melian dialogue. Later in the dialogue the Athenians make clear that Melian neutrality is a threat to them because their neutrality would be a signal to other colonies of Athens' weakness. So Athens conquers Melos not merely because they can, but because they fear losing their empire to rebellions.

[@Sea_ss]

He says this around 12:54

[@priley817]

They did it because they CAN and don’t want to lose their empire. Because if they couldn’t they wouldn’t. So the point still stands.

[@wardafournello]

The point is not whether they could or not. The question is whether they should or not. They decided it was necessary to prevent similar uprisings.

[@pandakicker1]

I am not surprised by any of this. Just looking at their pantheon tells you that war was a vital aspect of their society with their deity, Ares, being so important. Also, Athena being both the Goddess of War and Wisdom also speaks to the importance of war being as high as wisdom.

[@donaldg.freeman2804]

Excellent video. I'm not a scholar of ancient Greece but have read most of the popular fiction in English that has been coming out lately by Conn Igulden and others. Really enjoyed this and looking forward to more of your work.

[@WeltgeistYT]

Interesting!

[@MuhammadIshaque-ez8zi]

Oh thank god! I was worried about you not uploading. Indeed a fine addition to my learning!

[@metamaggot]

violence is what allows a culture to develop without being destroyed and absorbed by another..it is also the destruction of less violent cultures

[@Masuuruhiito]

Imagine yourself in the prime of your youth fighting for your land against an impossibly powerful empire that is set to conquer you and not only you win but you somehow absolutely destroy them in battle. Of course it's gonna be the most important moment of your life. Like winning the world cup and multiply the feeling x 100.

[@potter5647]

"No one recovers from the disease of being born, a deadly wound if there ever was one" -Emil Cioran 😢❤

[@SpectralThought]

Weak's thought.

[@cashington5756]

​@@SpectralThoughtWise thought*

[@briansinger5258]

@@cashington5756 Commie horseshit*

[@randomweirdo4467]

​@@SpectralThoughtEven the strong perish.

[@FatedTag]

I love it👌

[@mikehunt3420]

Second time watching this. Really enjoy this insight into the thought process of ancient societies. Crazy how far we have come since this era

[@TheRealLordRama]

Me when I read old Usenet/BBS posts.

[@MatteoRomanelli-kl9fb]

I am actually surprised how people thought it would have been otherwise

[@mencken8]

“- in Italy, for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace - and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." - Graham Greene, The Third Man

[@MennydorgesERArchive]

Peace does indeed breed stagnation, as an Italian, I can tell you that the Renaissance was kicked off by the fall of Constantinople and the Christian refugees, a looming threat and pressure does wonders, something they cannot replicate with Put in, because they made the people disillusioned to protect their Countries, now that they’re reduced to economic zones

[@victimofchungus2039]

This is a wonderful and very good video props to you Weltgeist

[@thechefisacookin]

Would you ever be interested in covering the Iliad?

[@WeltgeistYT]

Definitely

[@Ludwig_Cox]

This is one of the best videos i've watched on youtube!! Really love all the literary sources used, really enhances the points you're making, and of course the way you connect it to Nietzsche. Also love your videos on Nietzsche, I've read some of his books multiple times and you don't present Nietzsche's philosophy as something that it isn't (Soft, made for the masses). Instead you always clearly highlight that Nietzsche is very HIERARCHICAL and seeks to want to affirm the natural order of men. This video does that, the pre christian, greek 'morality" was just that, the affirmation of the natural order, the strong conquer the weak because they are strong and the weak must endure because they aren't strong enough to be strong, is a rough paraphrase from genealogy der moral.

[@ashwhiteforest9078]

Strength is a matter of winning. I imagine poison and disease would do wonders in slaughtering people. There's a reason we don't like doing that, these days. But it's quite odd we see so much in the way of strong men winning wars, battles, but rarely their destruction at the hands of the physically weak, but mentally conniving. Such men are considered villains at worst, tricksters at best, and when such men are venerated, even they typically whitewash their own history.

[@jeffseng6385]

This was excellent! Thank you.

[@ProfessorToadstool]

the more things change, the more they stay the same

[@_7.8.6]

Well in ancient India they had the caste system which originally had the warrior at the top only to be usurped by the priests

[@ChristianSt97]

I saw them when I was 10 years old but never taught about them in this way

[@johnnydrake7734]

Thank you for having this channel. I enjoy very much

[@WeltgeistYT]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@P________]

War or slavery, sometimes it is simple

[@kenneth9874]

It's a reminder that it only takes one to make war

[@PinkTorpedo909]

Sophism and the expedition of political movements through reflexivity is astonishing and is something we can see in front of our eyes to this day….

[@nikmontecristo3683]

Did anyone thought that the ancient world was a peacefull utopia?

[@adamfilmmaker]

One of my favourite videos online. The discussion of the sculpture pair is haunting as it haunted those moderns who saw them.

[@makiaveliprime77dag95]

I love this!Can you please cover Thus Spoke Zarathustra?

[@theknave4415]

Solid vid, script and narration. Great conclusion. Well done.

[@kingdm8315]

When Weltgeist does a thus spoke Zarathustra analysis things are gonna change drastically 😭

[@modofatak]

What a phenomenal vid. Subscribed.

[@aquamarine99911]

Well, Sparta ended up conquering Athens. And then sold the Athenians out to the Persians. The Persian Empire under Cyrus the Great (and both Xerxes and Darius decendents) was not actually such a violent place. Maybe that's why they consistently lost to the Greeks, and ultimately to Alexander.

[@flaviosoares1]

What an episode, man! Amazing 👏👏👏

[@subcitizen2012]

The Melian dialogue could have just as easily been spoken to the Greeks by the Persians. Like the Melians, some Greeks resisted Persia and perished, but the story we are familiar with is their successful resistance. The response to the Melian dialogue, both in the case if Melos and in the analogue of Greece vis a vis Persia is "up yours with your might-is-right, we will resist even if we are weak." Athens ended up suffering the same fate and making the same choices anyway by the end of the Peloponnesian wars. Relative weakness is still strength!

[@bobross7594]

war is peace, slavery is freedom

[@awnaur0no919]

COPE

[@Nykandros]

@@awnaur0no919 The comment section for this entire video is full of people coping and trying to reaffirm their weakness lmao

[@aleksandarnedeljkovic8104]

​@@bobross7594Orvel?

[@reginaldbauer5243]

A man’s character assimilates to the conditions and likewise the conditions around him influence his nature to the level of his fortunes. The choices and actions of human beings throughout history always display a conflict arising out of fear and ambition - a longing for power, a crude type of power. Human nature is governed by greed and ambition, violence and fear, and the lust or love for power. Furthermore, this human nature is generally the same in all people and through all events. The unpleasant changes of circumstances of fortune do not alter that human nature, they merely determine how much of it is revealed, and what degree of force it exerts upon human action. Moral conventions that compel people to moderation and passivity are artificial, conditional measures. History shows that all moral conventions of law and justice are artificial and contingent. The standards and conventions of civil society are cast aside when times are difficult. So long as conditions are generally dangerous and insecure, violence is common. Moral conventions have no independent validity and existence, and are instead contingent on security and prosperity. In the absence of security that allows for morality, fear and self-interest determine everything. Morality is removed by the strain of real events. In times of peace men can afford the luxury of moral/virtuous sentiments, but war brings most men’s character down to the level of their misfortunes. In times of war, sharp moral distinctions cannot be so easily drawn between two adversaries, positions cannot be so easily assessed in such black and white terms, there exist many gray areas when it comes to deciding what is just and unjust, there are no clear distinctions on good and bad because moral opposites cannot be so easily distinguished in times of war. It is not about right or wrong of the moral opinions that combatants bring into a war; it is about what war does to morality and the human condition. War reveals that all moral values are constructs of human beings and that morals are conditional to the safety and security of the people that make them. Conventions that bind the city together in orderly operation in regular circumstances are torn apart, since their force and validity had always been contingent on the relative security and prosperity of the people who followed them. With these moderating factors removed, the artificiality and fragility of the laws become apparent, and they are quickly overturned. Morality is provincial and applies only to a certain period of time; morality is simply geography misconstrued. This is because moral systems have always been relative to the culture, the historic period, and the social class that produced them. Different cultures express different moral codes of conduct at different times. Obedience to certain laws and certain times is called ‘justice’, irrespective of the type of government. The institution of justice is simply a cynical cover for superior force. Rulers think only of how to exploit their subjects, in the same way that a shepherd thinks only of the benefit that his flock will bring. Any care that either shepherd or ruler might provide is intended solely as a means to increase their power or profit. Rulers use this word ‘justice’ only to hide their pursuit of their own advantage.

[@ProfessorToadstool]

yeah... aint it great?

[@doilyhead]

And you wonder why women think men are stupid. Give us children so you can raise them to be killed or killers. Resource management is complicated but it doesn't have to be done through force, natural disasters, disease, famine notwithstanding.

[@gregpappas]

great to see you back! How about a series on ancient civilization, Greek and Roman? regarding on your ending on the violence segment. laws curb violence through the monopolization of violence. No global state or laws?

[@stacyliddell5038]

I would say the world was violent so it was a necessity to be violent to survive it.

[@hell-hollowfarmer41]

What a great channel! These are videos that get only get better with additional viewings.

[@WeltgeistYT]

Thank you!

[@sergeroy2335]

more violent than in our days? the world was ans will always be violent

[@TwiztedHumor]

This expose is quite interesting thank you. Of course I agree with the critiques that you need to put this into context of the ancient world.

[@SikanderG]

Violence is not a necessary part of human flourishing. Human nature and the world are changing and evolving. In Ancient Greek times violence was harder to avoid, but the world has evolved and improved since then.

[@djohnson2536]

I love a bunch of grecophiles from the renaisance somehow managed to completely warp peoples view on ancient greece into this utopia of philosophy and science, really shows how easy history can be manipulated

[@orboakin8074]

21:38 Funny Hitchens mentions this. One passage in the bible where Jesus says "The meek shall ingerit the earth" is actually harkening back to the post-classical Greek era. In the original Greek translation of the bible, the word for meek is Praus which is a Greek word to describe a violent horse that has been calmed/tamed. It basically meant "those with strength and self control" I see this as Jesus and Christianity further emphasizing that synthesis of the violent past with a more moderate and peaceful present.

[@jeepnj2502]

Ive always felt meek must be a mistranslation. The meek usually get screwed over everywhere in life, and anyway, being meek hardly seems like a virtue to aspire to.

[@imperiumhistoricum117]

Christianity, especially when judging by the way it implemented itself wherever it went, has proven to be not in contrast to this synthesis, but its greatest implementation.

[@magnusdanielsson2749]

Tom Holland makes it very clear just how different society was in the ancient days in Rome and Greece. They had very different morals. Its pretty hard to imagine how brutal it was and so different to what were used to. A tv-series like Rome or a movie like Gladiaror that was historical accurate would probable cause a real uproar among people due to the brutality sexual behaviors.

[@MrFredstt]

I agree but a show to truly depict the reality would be a fun and interesting watch. Though like you said people's sensibilities today would no doubt cause the show to end in failure

[@maoama]

That was an excellent thesis and introduction. You really caught me off guard, I was not expecting this from a history KZbinr.

[@theletterm5425]

Really good video, I thought it was very interesting!

[@WeltgeistYT]

Glad to hear that!

[@theletterm5425]

@@WeltgeistYT Your content is really great. I recently bought Walter Kaufmann's "Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist" and am currently reading "Nietzsche: A Very Short Introduction" based on your recommendation. Thank you for making philosophy more easily understandable!

[@chrisbahll5593]

Aeschylus tombstone had this written on it for sure, but that battle was a turning point in the history of athens, the result allowed her to take dominance of a large part of the hellenic world, would the tombstone still write about his participation in a battle over his profession if the battle he was of was smaller scale and took place in an unknown farmland as another commenter posted? Maybe but im not sure. I agree that the greeks were tough and battle oriented but did so for means of survival, they valued peace above all as they aimed for it and you can arrive to this conclusion from their dislike of ares the god of war, whom the warlike thracians and spartans celebrated more(if this is true). They viewed war as a means to retain their freedom and geopolitical safety. Even the greeks that did not have the military education of sparta stood toe to toe against them which proves that for the most part they were fierce in battle and trained from a young age. They often quoted homer whom they considered their undisputed grandfather, and if you read the heliad, its filled with scenes of duels, slaughter and violence, spears separating spines, rocks smashing heads etc. So for sure they never turned their gaze from war and battle and were raised to it, but I would only call them warlike out of necessity. The most valued sport was pancration (in some cities they destroyed a part of the wall to receive the new champion, which meant that they would no longer need a wall with such a strong man) and each sport in the olympiad had its practical purposes in battle (except the disk throwing maybe?). So if you think of a warlike culture like the vikings, when they died they believed they went to valhala to fight again, the greeks went to the elysium fields where it was peaceful, Summing up I think the greeks realized the cold yet beautiful reality of this world and managed to sustain a balance between the carnal and the spiritual. Through their homeric tradition they raised great warriors and were always prepared to kill and enslave, but did so not for pleasure but for the sake of glory and freedom that resulted from victory, so they could leisurely focus on the matters of the mind and soul, but above philosophers or artists or poets or sculptors I think they valued warriors the most for sure, I mean look at their heroes.

[@chadfromchad4662]

Amazing video. But i must point out, i did not expect to hear the music from Merchant here.

[@aniksamiurrahman6365]

The morality didn't change at all. Just the world got bigger. The size of the sandbox got bigger and thus a lot of people are not exposed to the heat. Nevertheless, in this world, a few flourishes in the expense of many many many others. Without all these child labor, money laundering, lack of labor protection in the 3rd world, all the expensive consumerist life of the 1st world will simply fail to exist. To this day - "The Strong Do What They Can And The Weak Suffer What They Must." Doesn't matter if the myopic 1st world duellers just unware of it just as they are unware of the violence of the then Greek society.

[@urb4444]

this one gonna be a banger...

[@_PanchoVilla]

Best episode yet. You've managed to put ideas into my head I've never really considered before. The lovely irony of the civilization who considered themselves the most enlightened, turned out to be so barbaric. Is it any different today?

[@_PanchoVilla]

@Tracchofyre well said. I bet in 1,000 years from now, time travelers would look at us with the same contempt, while mobilizing the Death Star as some altruistic delusion. Rousseau argued that we've become corrupted the moment we were civilized. Thus, civilization can never become enlightened, until we move beyond humanity as Nietzsche deeply desired. We must confront our Jungian shadows and keep the beast caged. Will those mental bars hold? For how long?

[@ramieskola7845]

Barbarian = not greek

[@georgekosko5124]

It all boils down to where you would prefer to live in the 5th century BC + where you reckon the most culture and knowledge was getting developed.

[@christophersnedeker]

This doesn't encompass all of greek morality.

[@Delmworks]

It is in one major, frightening sense-compartmentalisation. The worst of todays world, and the good or even the merely average, rarely meet these days...which means the former can get away with more for far longer.

[@rumplstiltztinkerstein]

Everyone, take notice on those statues of the ideal greek soldier images. Those are the looks of the people that dedicate their lives to battle. They don't look like those gym people that look like balloons. If you see those balloon people pretending to be hard workers, you can be almost completely certain that they "cheated" their way towards that body.

[@PassionateSpirit88]

Yes, exactly. The ancient warriors were lean muscle and dedicated more so to toughness and endurance, not big muscles.

[@monkeymoment6478]

@@PassionateSpirit88 And they did it all without having to step foot in a planet fitness. Roman legionaries marched in full battle dress for miles each day.

[@жизненный_опыт]

so based

[@crizish]

Yeah! Train for blood thirsty hand to hand combat and gay sex if you want a chiseled body rather than a balloon body. 🤣

[@gwang3103]

I didn't know that Alexander Skarsgard or Chris Helmsworth looked like balloons at all.

[@juliussw9153]

I think most people with the slightest knowledge of Ancient Greece are not surprised by any of this. The most important events in ancient Greek history are the Persian Wars, the Peloponnesian Wars and the conquerings of Alexander the Great. Their most cherished epic, the Iliad, is incredibly violent, and their tragedies aren't particularly family friendly either. So yeah, I don't think this conception of ancient Greece as some peaceful paradise is very common, especially because a lot of people without much knowledge of its history still know it through recent pop culture films such as 300 and Troy, which again: pretty violent stuff.

[@Number1Hater939]

Great video you've earned a suscriber

[@WeltgeistYT]

Welcome aboard!

[@forgottenhelm1299]

What if we made children observe empathy, community building and community action that builds stronger community bonds and community service?

[@TheRealLordRama]

What if we made children observe a bunch of abstractions that also "build" other abstractions, like building community, community buidling, building community building, building building, community community, empathy bonds building action, community action, action building....

[@rexpayne7836]

Great content and presentation. 😊

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

I'm not certain if the argument is entirely sound. How much credence do our own times really give to art? If extraterrestrial archeologists studied the twenty first centuary thousonds of years from now, they would probably conclude that we too thought very little of drama and when a poet dies, all anyone cared for is how much money he made.

[@wishesandfishes]

Well, that seems like a pretty accurate description of our society - we measure someone's worth by their ability to accrue wealth far more than their production of thoughtful or beautiful art

[@TheRealLordRama]

John Carmack is pretty rich, art is doing fine if you're not pretentious about it or holding on to dead forms (novels, poetry, cinema, etc).

[@makiaveliprime77dag95]

I enjoy your videos a lot.I just wonder if you're gonna do more Nietzsche..maybe Thus Spoke Zarathustra and all that

[@GeorgeSmileyOBE]

While you and BAP embrace a pro-Spartan and Delphic (Dionysian) weltenshaung, there are several points glossed over by you both: 1) Socrates served as a hoplite three times, Potidaea, Delium, and Amphipolis. One was military campaign was purely defensive, one was unprovoked and raw conquest, and one was a defense of a strategic ally city-state that had a treaty with Athens. In other words: Socrates, with his body, participated in all three possible types of military exercise. The other is that while the Greeks celebrated and perfected the body of the flower of youth and productive physical years, they also created a system for old men and their roles. Violence was put down, and continued social discourse amongst peers in symposium were your civic duty as a private citizen benefiting for the public order. Poetry, dialogues and plays and historical records were written by old men. It took Thycidides 20 years to write his history of the Peleponesian war, and he only could have done so with peer assent that that was the proper thing for an old man of his station to do. What am I saying to YOU? And BAP? Unless you are 60, you are a soy boy for making KZbin videos. Go make a family of sons and conquer something. I’ll wait.

[@tightbhole420]

the fuck is a bape

[@TheRealLordRama]

And what are you going to do if I don't? Press me into service? I think people should be able to do abstract algebra and functional programming before they are allowed to touch philosophy, does that make you angry?

[@GeorgeSmileyOBE]

@@TheRealLordRama No angrier than it makes yourself for being a p*ssy, and recognizing that fact every time you look in the mirror. Your ancestors wasted their seed upon unworthy loins to produce you.

[@robertmastnak581]

Very interesting fakts. Thx

[@WeltgeistYT]

Glad you like them!

[@PrometheanBarbarian]

I am always amazed by the fact that there is so much difference in Pre-Socratic Greece and Post-Socratic Greece. I can't disagree with Nietzsche on his writings about the ancient Greek 'Philosophers' who inverted Greek culture and Morals (Plato etc.) and the bad effects it had for the future of ancient Greece. Love your videos!

[@skeletorlikespotatoes7846]

What? No. Their ideas were absolutely essential. It wasn't them who brought down the civilization. Nor would Nietzsche agree with that.

[@urbanlumberjack]

@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846you should spend a few minutes researching before you type so confidently

[@skeletorlikespotatoes7846]

@@urbanlumberjack I mean I know ancient Greek and have studied extensively the works of pres Socratics and post Socratics 😊 so yeah I know what I'm talking about

[@alfatejpblind6498]

Lmao it was after Plato that hellenism after Alexander started, I wouldn't call that slave-morality nor a bad outcome

[@ramonalejandrosuare]

@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846 Have you read the Birth of Tragedy then? Or Nietzsche's writings on Socrates? Because urbanlumberjack is right.

[@marinykapsali4355]

Myopic, distorted reality due to lack of knowledge, incomplete knowledge can be more dangerous than no knowledge at all.

[@WorthlessWinner]

Is the melian dialogue really representative of Greek morality? It seems like Thucydides is criticizing that attitude a lot of the time. He's always giving those views to people he hates like Cleon.

[@Fronzel41]

See also Roman histories which write speeches for Rome's enemies, like Tacitus who has the Celtic chieften Calgacus condemn the Romans for greed and says "they make a desert and call it peace".

[@christophersnedeker]

Ancient Greece was a place of diverse ideas, we have the melian dialogs but more impactful have been the dialogs of Plato that argue justice is essential to the good life. The greeks eventually decided to follow the morality of Plato, not the morality of Athens at Melos.

[@veerswami7175]

@christophersnedeker there is a reason humans when it's comes to evolutionary community issue they avoid war

[@thevibegod]

excellent video genuinely gj

[@WeltgeistYT]

I appreciate it

[@martinaakervik]

I listen to 14 minutes of buildups painting the Greeks as very violent society. Even notice words as uncivilised be used about the status of Greek society. That last bit is completely wrong! Definitely not how the Greeks looked at themselves. The fact that violence was much more up in the face of politicians back in ancient Athens than now should be no surprise. That piracy and uncivilised societies was surrounding the Greeks was a big part of what Homer (and Herodotus) wrote about. Because of this fear for violence and barbarians the Greeks spent very much time on discussion what was good manners, ethics and how to avoid violence and war. Platon as you try to paint here as a supporter of violence, was very clear about how power struggle makes war or internal conflicts. He spent much of his philosophy describing what leads to these things. Fx if a city expands its borders. Can you please ask yourself. Why do people want to rewrite the Greek philosophy? 🤷🏻‍♂️ Maybe because the issues the Greeks discussed is a constant conflict in society? 🤷🏻‍♂️ The Greeks found a way to describe the difference between barbarians and civilised. You can’t do that as a uncivilised society.

[@kenneth9874]

Most of the wars of ancient Greece was greek against greek

[@martinaakervik]

@@kenneth9874 They did not look at themselves as uncivilised. They did not seek war. The first text in the Greek written language was Homer’s songs. All about how to behave as a man (and later as a woman) to avoid conflicts and how to stay honorable if a war was to be. (Even pointing out how stupid reasons was made for going into a war.) A first look into how oral tradition used stories to educate the people and make a strong civilised culture. Fx pointing out that total irrational anger like Achilles had in war was not how “gentlemen” fight. Even if you was the best, most famous and a god figure. But sure it was a lot of power struggle in Ancient Greece. (Btw not hiding the facts like the ongoing Ukrainian war now, was probably more civilised than us today.)

[@kenneth9874]

@@martinaakervik the first surviving text

[@martinaakervik]

@@kenneth9874 yes, or the first text we know of. That in fact likely can be the first essential at least, because it was so important! (So that some scholars actually believe the alphabet was made for writing down those stories.) Anyway we can only speculate in what was actually first, but it is a reason some text survive and others don’t. Some interpret Homer as a celebration for war. But if you read it, you soon enough noticed his focus wasn’t war, but behaviour, craftsmanship, socialising, interaction between humans (and non humans. And pleasing for those wanting to read/hear about blood too.) #intellectual mind blowing explanations. It could be that is half of the genius brilliance with those stories. Is that how you interpret them is telling of who you are. What time you’re in. It can therefore also be acceptable for different worldview, different times, different cultures and different interpretations. I think people back then noticed how their community reacted and what the different people saw in the story when it was only oral tradition. What it did with the awareness in social groups. Because it probably was making changes in the form of how discussions was going on. I believe this was a "big hit" even before being written down. A reminder of what power struggle, ego and the (Trojan) war did to society. That in a war you can lose everything, even the gods did. And it was relevant because humanity at this time had been struggling with periods of war for thousands of years already. But also been in long periods with peace.

[@luked4043]

Excellent video btw.

[@KaisHistory]

please please please do not overgeneralize a incredibly complex topic such as ancient Greece. You are deliberatly picking violent aspects of greek society (sometimes disconnected from each other) and painting a picture coherent to your narrative. Sparta was indeed a very violent society. It enslaved it´s neighbors and had a select group of citizens, forming a marshal elite, exploiting everyone else. However there were a multitude of other City States. All of them being violent to diffrent degrees. In Athens itself there were many diffrent factions, some being warhawkish, others being pro peace. Of course at times the warhawk faction (like in the peleponesian war cleon´s Faction took power), but there were also instances, where leniancy prevailed (like when the Lesbians revolted against Athens, it was decided not to raise the city to the ground). I could give a million diffrent examples about how ancient greek civilization was indeed multifaceted and very complex and not just violent only perse. Any other civilization in History, heck even modern civilization goes to war frequently and comits horrible acts against humanity (look at Ukraine). In every time in History cities were raised and many times no ritious justification was given by the purpetrators. Did the Mongols have a good reason to raise Bagdad and to kill all it´s Inhabitants? Did the British have a good reason to take over India? Was there a moraly sound reason to start the opium wars? Did the French King feel ritous about supporting the enemies of his own faith in the 30 years war....? (I could go on endlessly) Might is right menatlity, overall violence has been part of any human civilization, even in today. History as well as the present however is not violent and dictated by creed and lust for power only. The world is a complex dynamic place. When trying to understand it we shall be as specific as possible and not let our own narratives blind us!

[@lorizoli]

Viewing being virile and healthy and a deep thinker as opposites is a sign of the degeneracy of our times.

[@manaman9625]

I thought it was a peaceful paradise where everyone was gay?

[@LevisH21]

the extreme level of detail these bronze statues have keeping in mind the lack of modern technology we have today, it's insane and breathtaking and worthy of admiration what ancient people like the Greeks were able to create.

[@donbenjamin6459]

I played roma2 and read the 10 thousands. I am surprised people think they werent violent xd

[@1fredwahl]

Very good

[@AshourElnagy-w5s]

Depends on the situation. Sometimes Violence is required for defence and protection. Good and evil exist so it's a fact. That's why Mercy and violence are required. It's the balance of nature. We can learn from the Way animals protect their families and also give tenderness and care to them. It's not a shame to learn from other creatures and follow the behaviors that suit us as humans . As long as it Will add to us And lead us to the direction that we missed. Morals brothers and sisters. Morals aren't the way we speak or pretend. Morals come out of Concepts that you made to yourselves. To shape a happy and satisfying atmosphere.

[@patrickselden5747]

Fascinating - thanks... ☝️😎

[@gwang3103]

I guess this video kind of explains why the West, the intellectual and cultural progeny of the Hellenes, has been what it was -- and STILL IS -- since three hundred years ago. With all due respect, I completely disagree with the thesis that high culture must go hand in hand with barbarity and bloodlust. India and (premodern) China were able to produce plenty of high culture without also spilling rivers of blood. Prof David Kang from the University of Southern California pointed out that from the 9th or 10th century AD onward the East Asian region enjoyed nearly a whole millennium of stability; the Thucydides trap quite simply didn't apply there at all. As for Nietzsche, I have my doubts just how seriously we can take him. He apparently never lived up to his own philosophy. It was said that he served briefly as a medical orderly in the army during the Franco-Prussian War, but the sight of blood made him so ill he had to be sent home.

[@christopherskipp1525]

Neitzsche also died insane in an insane asylum.

[@gwang3103]

@@christopherskipp1525 And if it's because of his philosophy, I think we'd have even less reason to adopt it. Who wants to live by a philosophy that will make him go bonkers?

[@TaiNguyen-in6xy]

You need to double check on the notion that the East Asian enjoyed a whole millennium of stability. Because during so many wars, invasions, dynasties changed occurred in China and India.

[@gwang3103]

@@TaiNguyen-in6xy You can check out what Prof David Kang has had to say on the matter with respect to the East Asian region. There are several videos of his lectures here on KZbin.

[@TaiNguyen-in6xy]

@@gwang3103 I'm an East Asian. And I can tell you from history that there is no peace in any whole millennium in East Asia lol. Do you know many dynasties ruled China during that millennium? It's either external invasion, or internal strife. Maybe you should change millennium to decades.

[@julianhartley7581]

The Athenian actions on Melos shocked the Greek world, and the Athenians very quickly regretted them, and even punished the people who had persuaded them to butcher the Melians.

[@moenibus]

A click bait title. Who said ancient Greece was or wasn't violent? makes no sense. you invent some controversial issue and then create a video to "debunk" it. again, who told you "most people" associate Greece with togas and philosophy? that's a straw man argument. we know ancient Greece, and their constant state of war.

[@nicolasbeaud8685]

You missed the point here. It is not about showing how really violence Greek society was (we know it was as you say) but how it accomodated a high culture at the same time, which seems today incompatible as we see the progress of civilization linked with cultural progress

[@moenibus]

@@nicolasbeaud8685 it's completely compatible. but, again, your men are not longer men, but overgrown children.

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

​@@nicolasbeaud8685 "which seems today incompatible" Varies which ideological circles one frequents. On left it's contradictory, on the right is absolutely natural.

[@KnowledgeWisdomLife]

An insightful journey into the darker aspects of Ancient Greece.

[@wyattwatson9848]

I kinda disagree with violence being central. Just because violence was a necessity for thriving, doesn’t mean it was a value or something more important than the true the good or the beautiful. Also there’s more to physical fitness and perfection than merely for offensive sake

[@RosDalton]

“It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.” Robert E. Lee

[@EL_394]

Sparta vs the open society degenerates that philosophers denounce to this day

[@EL_394]

I guess Marxism/Leninism would be the tradition of philosophers today