Were Medieval Thieves Guilds Real? DOCUMENTARY

[@InvictaHistory]

We've got more of these videos which take a look at the accuracy of common Medieval/Fantasy tropes: How did soldiers level up? kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHqqn416as6KnpI Were are the top legendary weapons? kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZezanyvgrB-ars

[@shadowtrooper1052]

I love your videos you got new subscriber I love the thieves Guild from the elder scrolls can you do Medieval assassin organisations like the dark brotherhood but in real life .

[@Comred1]

Small spelling mistake on 5:22. It should be 'revolved', not 'revovled'.

[@kadinlong7333]

I feel like there should be a video on fantasy barbarians compared to historical barbarian cultures

[@LegendStormcrow]

Dude, I've seen those and this video has been taunting me for days. Thanks for finally releasing it.

[@Abhishek-sr2pu]

A video on Gajapati empire? It's mostly forgotten even in india.

[@netcyber]

Invicta: "The Thieves Guild don't exist." Me: "Gee, sounds like something a MEMBER OF THE THIEVES GUILD WOULD SAY!"

[@pacosoentken303]

Ah the History channel is just a cover up!

[@johnnywalker1333]

Hahahaha

[@Marinealver]

Yes they exist and always have existed and exist to this day. Just look at the City Council of Seattle and Portland.

[@johnnywalker1333]

@@Marinealver shhhh they will cancel you next

[@diarradunlap9337]

@@Marinealver I would look at the United States Congress for a real-world Thieves Guild.

[@JedKoll]

In India they had the “thuggee” that dated back to the 1300s and gave us the word “thug” that we use today. They were a pretty brutal gang.

[@maldito_sudaka]

man I love etymology, history in the capsule of a single word

[@NL-ws5fv]

I remember hearing of this and read a few sources. There were all sorts of assassins and thieves in india with each their respective name, but Thuggies, or Thugs, were specifically tied to kidnapping and assault. Red Sashes on their belts were common icons, mostly because those sashes actually turned out to be a prime weapon and tool. Meant to incompacitate targets and threats. Thought it was super cool. How much of it is true, I don't know.

[@bluebird3281]

Hashashin or otherwise known as, the Assassins were medieval Nizari Ismailis of Persia and Syria. It was known as a secret order to be led by a mysterious man; the Nizari Ismailis was formed in the late 11th century and split from Ismailism which was a branch of Shia Islam.Later on, the Nizaris posed military threat towards Sunni Seljuq authority within Persian territory

[@Baseballnfj]

@@NL-ws5fv Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.... the cult that Indy fights the whole movie were neo-thuggies.

[@MrGksarathy]

Pretty sure the idea of a unified thuggee threat was mostly manufactured by some Governor-General or other as part of his attempt to consolidate EIC control over the interior areas of their domain. Not to say such groups didn't exist. They did, but a lot of the more elaborate tales about them are legend that the British played up.

[@CelticAugur]

"Brynjolf, huh? Lemme guess. He plucked you off the street and dropped you into the thick of things without tellin' you which way is up. Am I right?"

[@jasepoag8930]

Doing my first Skyrim playthrough since like 2013, and just finished the thieves guild. I loled.

[@CelticAugur]

@@menacingcar0449 my wealth is none of your business

[@midnightlemon4255]

@Ghost Boi.Clique I can hear this

[@budakbaongsiah]

@@thegamingwolf5612 Good thing we got mods for that.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

@@thegamingwolf5612 There are mods for that.

[@chaosvolt]

So here's a weird thought: were there any cases of conventional guilds engaged in criminal activities that could reasonably be interpreted as indicative of the guild becoming a cover for organized crime? A theives guild being "we're a real guild but behind the scenes we're basically the mafia" seems a lot more plausible and closer to real-world organized crime than a guild literally built up around representing thieves.

[@sauron7839]

Yes. Guilds in Medieval towns and cities regularly engaged in supplemental criminal activity and even warfare against other groups.

[@Hagashager]

@@sauron7839 More than that, Guilds, in may respects, *were* medieval mafias. It was not uncommon for guilds to fight each other, kidnap skilled laborers to work in sweatshops and/or ransom them back to their original guild. They also heavily controlled the knowledge of skilled labor. Carpentry, stonework, shipwrights etc. Were all secrets the various guilds kept under lock and key. Everyone likes to blame the Church exclusively for the suppression of knowledge, and they did, but they were not the only entities who profited off ignorance.

[@chaosvolt]

@@sauron7839 Well now rhat just makes the lack of discussion on that subject in the video even more glaring.

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

@@Hagashager "they weren't the only ones who profited off ignorance" No one profited from ignorance in medieval times. That's a myth born from the enlightenment and probably protestants.

[@diarradunlap9337]

@@Ζήνων-ζ1ι The Enlightenment, certainly.

[@TheArizonaRanger.]

It's gotta be hard to pin down the history of a thieves guild considering their starting premise is to not have people know about them.

[@Marinealver]

Welcome to Theft Club 1st Rule of Theft Club is, You Do Not Talk About Theft Club

[@peladomontiel1]

@@Marinealver what is the reasoning behind commenting this burned up quote? It's unnecessary and annoying.

[@themouthofsauron7550]

@@peladomontiel1 the same reason you assume your opinion is some sort shared consensus

[@RedPanda391]

@@peladomontiel1 It is a reference to a movie. Fight Club.

[@VainerCactus0]

@@peladomontiel1 What is the reasoning behind being a killjoy? It's unnecessary and annoying.

[@AbsolXGuardian]

I do find it very interesting that while not based in reality, it's based on the *idea* of reality that Medieval people held regarding their own times. It would be interesting to see this used in a medieval fantasy setting. Like a Thieves Guild that claims to be several generations old, but their mythical founder is actually fake. The real guild was created by a gang who set out to find the guild that the scholars and authorities asserted had to exist.

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

Love the concept. Probably gonna use it in a campaign.

[@nunyabiznes33]

Interesting! Maybe also add in a rumor of an assassin's guild and then an investigator finds out that the murders are not really connected.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

We don't know if it's reality or not, the possibility is clearly there.

[@vincentlee7359]

Sounds like Assassin's Creed

[@inquisitorwalmarius6650]

looking for a cult, proceeds to become said cult.

[@holozulu1857]

“Capital!” Gray Fox

[@schuringleon3207]

Haha nice one Shadow hide you

[@AlwaysSleepy13]

Shadow hide you

[@robotichumanity6019]

Shadow hide you

[@cypher4783]

The interesting thing about the concept of a thieves guild is it is basically a gang with formal rules. The other side of this is that large gangs tend to want legitimacy. As in they want a position that they can enjoy the fruits of their illegal labor without the stress of worrying of being caught. Like a thieves guild turning into a legitimate spy ring, or the leader retiring to the country to start "legal" trade.

[@Sk0lzky]

In some fantasy novel series focusing on the underworld it really looks like Latin American cartels, Chinese triads or old russian vory v zakonye (thieves in law) where the largest organisations form a sort of state with judiciary, military, diplomats and even social security programs, below those are "regional" corporations with international operations and below them - small local enterprises

[@David-ud9ju]

A thieves guild steal stuff to make money. They presuably would have fought with other thieves guild and would have probably enagaged in other criminal activities like selling illegal items like drugs, so they're basically a street gang. Street gangs have a heirarchy and a code and identifiers. They don't have some massive underground base where they all meet up or a king or whatever but a theives guild is essentially just a street gang of petty criminals, which would have definitely existed as it still does today.

[@Sk0lzky]

@@David-ud9ju actually many illegal organisations of late XIX-XXI century had (and presumably have) this kind of thing, although underground bases are usually replaced by huge, sometimes fortified villas in the middle of nowhere)

[@utubefuku7132]

@@David-ud9ju There are also ultra rich mafias in the real world, like the Sicilian Cosa Nostra, the Chinese Triad or the Japanese Yakuza. Some crime syndicates are very, very very large, rich and powerful. Think about the Farcs or Pablo Escobar in Colombia, or that one guy that controlled the drug commerce in Mexico like a corporation (El Chapo? I forgot the name). And now, Mexico has basically just 4 drug cartels. I live in Brazil, and here we have the P.C.C ("Primeiro Comando da Capital", or "First Command of the Capital"), which runs over the crime over HALF of the country. They have legions of accountants and lawyers working for them, and they even have parallel judiciary system - the fabled "favelas" have the "crime tribunals", where they serve as judge, jury and executioner, and they settle ALL disputes over their communities according to their own laws. And trust me, the PCC have laws of their own, and everybody living under their "umbrella" know their "laws" very well. It's a parallel State. And that's what happens to criminal organizations left unchecked, they eventually begin replacing or absorbing the constituted State, but make no mistake, "crime syndicates" do exist and they can go very but very above just the level of street gangs.

[@bendevin3012]

"You can't go around arresting the Thieves' Guild. I mean, we'd be at it all day!” ― Terry Pratchett

[@llewtree3013]

Much better to tax them heavily for crimes that weren’t legal

[@joaquinriosrodriguez7316]

@@llewtree3013 not when you have the assasin guild working for the government. Now you know what happens to those who don't pay taxes, and why there was only like 3 night guards in "Guards! Guards!". Assasins that work for Vetinari are just policemen with the authority to kill.

[@llewtree3013]

Joaquin RR ok so my comment was worded badly but that’s what I was essentially trying to say

[@joaquinriosrodriguez7316]

@@llewtree3013 understandable have a nice day

[@shadowling77777]

@@joaquinriosrodriguez7316 the assassins will kill the greedy taxing Templar! XD

[@carlosvalle612]

Objects made from glass or precious metals can be melted down into bars or minted into coins so owners won't recognize the stolen goods.

[@Cionaoith]

Also, enchanting the item removes the "stolen" flag if you don't have a mod to smelt it.

[@Anglisc1682]

Also they can sell the goods to Miller Peshek

[@erenrager6679]

Who else wants to learn about the beggar's guild now?

[@asdnetwork4268]

We don't speak of beggars guild since the incident.

[@sanuku535]

Yeahp

[@backyard.craftsman]

In ancient China, they were called the beggar clan, 😎

[@vladimirpootis3200]

@@backyard.craftsman Also know as the Beggar Sect.

[@implausibleimpossiblehypot4006]

@@backyard.craftsman in the Midwest they were the beggar posse

[@awesomehpt8938]

They also had a daedric prince called nocturnal as a patron.

[@anastasiossioulas83]

As a Patreon🙃

[@sonicman52]

LMAO

[@CivilWarWeekByWeek]

I would send this to the rogues in my D&D group, but they have high enough dex to outrun yt links

[@InvictaHistory]

Rogues... plural.... you mast have quite the interesting campaign on your hands!

[@NicoBabyman1]

Oops all rouges!

[@NicoBabyman1]

@@ahk9838 If this is supposed to be an anti-semitic joke, I'm unimpressed AND high key judge you for it.

[@ahk9838]

@@NicoBabyman1 Chill bro im from sephardic descent (ladinos) myself. I just find it funny how no one here in Brazil realized the relation. The ones who labeled Rogues as Ladinos here in Brazil certainly did it in purpose.

[@herbalheroine1184]

@@NicoBabyman1 oh no😱 a random person on the Internet is hurting someone. Hands down the most intense test I’ve ever read 😂💀

[@paweandonisgawralidisdobrz2522]

And they wore assasin outfits with leather bracelets, hoods, capes and a lot of dark clothing. Also lots of belts and buckles

[@DeathnoteBB]

Wouldn’t that make them extremely noticeable? I’m genuinely asking cause the outfit sounds badass.

[@paweandonisgawralidisdobrz2522]

@@DeathnoteBB exactly. Thats why "assasin" "ninja" and "stealth" outfits in movies and wideogames are ridiculus

[@arjusarauis9901]

Granted, we are playing through a Animus on Assassin’s Creed so pretty sure some proantagonists like Ezio Auditore or Connor Kenway must have stashed away their outfits and some of their gear somewhere and wears normalish clothing to try and blend in until it’s time to go and wreck Templars’ stuff or themselves.

[@stijndemmers4591]

@@arjusarauis9901 yeah maybe tho the outfits in assassins creed generaly do reflect the time and place the game is set in. But Some do stick out more than others

[@cactuslietuva]

@@stijndemmers4591 well in first assassin creed it was mentioned that assassin's wear robes like monks and you can blend into their groups pretty good. I mean no one expects a hidden blade from a monk.

[@Vespuchian]

I've always assumed "Thieves Guild" was just slang for regular-old organized crime. After all, if they were a _real_ guild, they'd pay _taxes!_

[@Godskin_Trio]

In medieval times, there was this guard called "Hieronymus Lex" who pursed the thieves guild, very fascinating tale, should make a video on it. Tots.

[@k.silverpoint]

Don't think this guy covers Cyrodilic history.

[@rosameltrozo5889]

I'd be surprised if no proto-mafias existed or something with some resemblance to that.

[@zaatas]

In a decentralized feudal system, every little region had a mafia led by a nobleman, they called themselves knights. They ran the OG protection racket.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

A criminal gang under the protection of someone in power is really all you need for a "thieves guild". Any thief not part of the gang are trespassing on their turf. If racketeering are part of the gangs activity having loose rogues stealing from people that have paid protection money to the gang is bad for their reputation so the gang have a reason to go after outsiders. Whatever the gang should be called a guild or not are just semantics.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

@@zaatas Indeed. Well most knights where probably honorable but yes thease probably existed as well. Speaking of that, some Japanese samurai that lost their masters, making them ronin became bandits since as samurai taking up the job of a lowely worker was s big no no.

[@zaatas]

@@michaelpettersson4919 That's kind of a myth, they were only honorable to other members of nobility. And even then it was really just good business. For instance, they could get more money from ransom than killing the enemy nobility. It was really a pragmatism, honor really didn't factor in, I'm sure they played it up like it did. But lets be honest. It was all about the money and power. The knights performed the same function as samurai did in feudal japan, they were tax collectors and muscle. They both got their starts there. All the mythos and flowery stuff they built on top of that, which is cool and all, but to think they honorable and just is silly. They were human beings with an incredible amount of power over others. They abused it. And this is really the behavior I'm talking about, because feudal societies are decentralized by their nature, rule of law can be spotty region to region. And a lot of barons acted like mafia bosses with the fees and taxes they would impose on others. It's where the term robber baron comes from.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

@@zaatas Lets just say that some where a bit more "enthusiastic" about their duties.

[@Warwipf]

0:35 The Defias Brotherhood in WoW is actually pretty well-organized and they are also goal-driven. Their goal is to overthrow the corrupt nobles of Stormwind.

[@bosbanon3452]

I love medieval time in europe even i am Indonesian, even in the modern times that kind of thief guild really ever existed in my country. My grandfather once rent a house in sekayu Semarang , every night he hear violence from other house then he know the house is a base for a pickpokects , the violence is their martial arts training

[@Basil_leaves27]

“I give Special rates for members of the Thieeeeves Guild, Show me what you got”

[@zeriel9148]

"Thieves guild" is just another way of saying "crime ring". And who knows, maybe "thieves guild" was just what people who were familiar with guilds would use to refer to a group of criminals.

[@ThousandThorns]

Isn't 'thieves guild' just slang for banks?

[@Xavi-nl9xe]

Yes

[@RESIST_DIGITAL_ID_UK]

It’s also slang for governments

[@Xavi-nl9xe]

@@RESIST_DIGITAL_ID_UK that’s true

[@demonprinces17]

Banks use to be guilds

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

No, especially in that era it would include also something antisemitic.

[@SimoLInk1698]

One thing I would like to add is that criminals were organized enough to share a sort of cryptolect, a language that is purposefully crafted to mislead those outside of a certain organization. We find this at least in 16th century England (when it was called "Peddler's French), Germany (found in the Liber Vagatorum, also known as "The Book of Vagabonds and Beggars",and Italy, where it was referred as "Furbesco".

[@cadethumann8605]

Perhaps this is a weird place for me to turn to help, but I was wondering if you could clarify certain things about how medieval bandits would work. You see, I'm trying to write a story where a group of youngsters (some of them swordsmen) are captured by a bandit gang who plan to ransom them for money from higher ups. While it is a fantasy (i.e. it is in a different land and history), I strive for it to be at least plausible. Lately, however, I have been thinking heavily about the logistics and wonder if I could have a friend to discuss it with. Do you think you could help me, sir/miss?

[@utubefuku7132]

@@cadethumann8605 What is the doubt that you are having? Now, in the case of a gang kidnapping someone for ransom, that was actually a common affair. What problem of logistics are you having? The gang have a few options: try to contact the target of the extortion semi directly, by sending a message over a peasant to "tell your lord to bring X amount of gold to Y monastery, or his son dies. And tell him to come alone". Or, perhaps more easily and safer, they could turn to a rival and "sell" their victim to that person, that would then ask the random for a slight higher price, or would just have the prisoner killed. Anyone of those could be valid actions

[@cadethumann8605]

@@utubefuku7132 Sorry to keep you waiting. Thank you for responding. What I had in mind was a group of at least 30 bandits being highwaymen who decide to capture travellers to ransom a duke, lord, or whatever. One day, a wagon train consisting of adolescents who are on an academy trip to a historical place soon find themselves confronted by the bandits on the way back. About 20 people are taken, including the main protagonist (a swordsman), his sister, his best friend (a swordswomen), and his friend's mother (a swordsman). The goal is that the bandits would wait for a few days and meet someone who would hand them money. Eventually, the main characters decide they want to escape, even though they are outnumbered and their weapons are confiscated. Luckily for them, the MC overhears a few bandits who are reluctant of capturing youngsters and are worried about what may go wrong with the hostage exchange. Long story short, the small group of reluctant bandits work in conjunction with the hostages to escape. There are some details I have not brought up but I just wanted to state the basic gist. One thing I wonder about is how groups of bandits in the past did not rat each other out to authorities before plans were in motion. The reasoning I am thinking of using is that the bandit leader uses two stories where some people tried to rat them out but the authorities were evaded. The rats were then found by the bandits and were brutally killed in retaliation. The story would be used to keep potential rats quiet. There's more details but I will stop. The reason why I want to use this premise is because I want my small-time heroes face an enemy that was common historically but usually used as cannon fodder in fiction (RPGs for instance). At the same time, I want them to be able to escape as well as showcase some humanity amongst some criminals. What do you think?

[@utubefuku7132]

@@cadethumann8605 Those are some good premises. Now, what happens next? Do all the 20 people escape at once? Or just the handful of protagonists? Now, I'll talk about the escape per se in a moment, but first I wanna talk about the possible after scenarios. First, having all the 20 hostages trying to go for the run would most probably end in the most cutthroat bandits finding them - they are teenagers, and not all of them are swordsman, otherwise they would've put up a fight instead of being captured. That means that besides the protagonists, most are just kids - they would be in a larger group, easier thus to spot, and would be slower, less skilled into being silent and sneaky than the trained soldiers. If however just the protagonists flee with the intention of "bringing help", they could have a better chance but this could lead to the rest of the bandits simply executing the ones left. The decision to execute the teens could also result into a full blown skirmish broking up at the bandits camp, between those disgusted by that and the less savory ones. Those are some of the considerations I have about it so far. Anything else?

[@cadethumann8605]

@utubefuku7132 I did not mention about the escape plan. To make a long story short, they all mananage to make it outside undetected but there is a wall (a small one, rather as it was amateurishly built by the bandits (they set uo their hideout at an abandoned archery camp building in the woods)) with some scouts on top (the rest of the bandits are inside in the mess hall, with one of the defected staging a diversion by getting people to sing ballads and dance. It is the last evening before the day where they get the money, so they're celebrating. The diversion dude would soon slip away and join the escapees). Said scouts are only meant to watch out for potential outsiders like guards or knights. They don't have bows as they didn't think of needing to shoot people, only recapture. But since everyone gets out and the wall is easily assailable from the inside, they quickly overpower and run off. At this point, the alarm is sound. Thankfully, one of the defected bandits locked the doors to stall for time (I could also have one bandit pour alcohol and set it ablaze with a candle or fire source, again stalling the bandits). As for how the group temporarily escapes for the night as they make their way back, they cross a rope bridge and cut it down, forcing the bandits to take a long way around to catch up. Later on in the story, there is a final battle at a small and easily penetratable fort (in-universe, it wasn't designed well). I'm still working out on the details for the escape. I have considered some folks escaping and help coming later, but I decided I wanted to have the story end in a big battle where the protagonists are involved.

[@damuvang1915]

The closest I’ll ever be to becoming a true Nightingale.

[@cypher4783]

you can always start a PI company called Nightingale investigations and security.

[@Sk0lzky]

@@cypher4783 too late, I already TMed it xd

[@Vexin980]

Better idea, instead of worshipping Nocturnal become the gray fox and laugh in her face.

[@ironymaiden1089]

I wouldn't want to, nightingales got pretty boring afterlife - eternal guard duty

[@cypher4783]

@@ironymaiden1089 or in the PI scenario the eternal stake out

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

As a non-American, I always thought thieves guilds in D&D and fantasy novels just sounded like a medieval interpretation of the Mafia, which was really big news in the years these products were developed. It never sounded like a thing that would exist in medieval Europe. Outlaws, on the other hand, made perfect sense.

[@thermit3]

A thieves guild always just struck me as a mafia but fantasy

[@Marinealver]

Time to play some more Anti-hero

[@robertstuckey6407]

You're just adding to my ideas about a more medievally authentic D&D campaign. I'm already planning an encounter where the party is stopped and asked to pay a toll by a local knight but when they pull out their purse the lord will try to kidnap and ransom them instead

[@octavianpopescu4776]

Where would you draw a line between a gang and a "thieves guild"? What would be the difference?

[@locklear7937]

I suppose a gang would be more loosely organised with a leader at the top, perhaps a lieutenant or two, and then just ordinary thugs. A guild is organised with a concrete hierarchy, its own set of laws, and a general rule that all members respect each other and benefit from each other.

[@Cheekster15]

Interesting to learn that while the thieves guild may not be historical, it has a rich literary tradition.

[@devildham]

Mafia, Yakuza, Triad, La Costa Nostra The Assassins....frankly, if something that could have reasonably been called a "Thieves Guild" didn't exist, I'd be shocked.

[@fastpace101]

"If you get caught we never knew you"

[@yognaughtcharbel]

never made an honest coin in your life, eh lad?

[@forlegalreasonsthatwasajok7608]

"My wealth is none of your business"

[@PalatiunsSharpshield]

god, i wish bethesda made a option to punch that guys face for telling me that after I made 500 coins choping wood

[@Black_Swordsman76]

@@forlegalreasonsthatwasajok7608 but that's where you're wrong lad, wealth is my business

[@13thRegen]

E. J. Hobsbawm's "Bandits" is a really great short book about the real historical counterparts to Robin Hood type figures - 'social bandits', and it lays out a really great account of the social and economic basis for this kind of banditry, how and where these figures were able to exist, the types of margins they lived in, and how they were able to establish a sympathetic, often well-supported relationship with the lower classes. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in this kind of stuff

[@w0rloko]

Thank you !! came to comment asking if there already was a video on banditry but what I was thinking about took up about a minute here.

[@Dayaktribesman]

"Alright, hand over your valuables. Or I'll gut you like a fish!"

[@abigailsaoirsefinnegan]

YOL TOOR SHUL

[@SimonAshworthWood]

“Well, being a poor fisherman, my only possessions are fish. Enjoy!”

[@danielsos9824]

The concept of the Thieves' Guild was codified in the stories of Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

[@ringo1692]

I also remember a book series called "Thieves World" that also references a guild

[@christopherg2347]

I wonder where the border between "Mafia Family" and "Thieves Guild" would be precisely? Families inherently have a rank structure based on seniority. And "new blood" has to be brought in, unless this is turns Habsburg or Ptolomey pretty quickly. Guilds overall formed add-hoc and were simply noticed if they survived for a time. Of course Thieves Guilds would face the challenge that their very "trade" was inherently illegal. Maybe regions where certain practices (pickpicketing, robbery) were poorly prosecuted or ot technically outlawed (except for what you yourself enforced) would indicate a Thieves guild? Also given how many soldiers turned to banditry and bandits were hired as soldiers, I wonder how many Spy Networks turned Thieves Guild and Thieves Guilds turned Spy Networks existed?

[@emilbj23]

Good to know that someone at Invicta is a Gwent fan!!

[@tlotpwist3417]

"I shall maketh an offer he cannot refuseth" Victo Corleonius

[@jameslorenz3718]

I wish I could remember what movie this was from

[@jameslorenz3718]

@Jordan Spencer thanks

[@vitaeth4949]

Hi, yes robber baron (or robber knights as we called them) were also type of low noble type of criminal. They also appeared in history when main ruler had weak position. In Bohemia especially in Husite wars a lot of robber knights owned small estates of fortifications and had their own land and subjects. They also attacked another landowners. If you played Kingdom Come Deliverance, You know sir Hanush, who was some time marked as robber knight.

[@brycevo]

This is so interesting and awesome to see how legends are still passed down in culture

[@Patchaddictedpolymath]

"Always reserve belief in the absence of evidence" That which can be asserted gratuitously can be dismissed as such

[@reybladen3068]

Is the collegiate in HBO's Rome accurate? According to what I see in the show, they're like the ancient Mob.

[@InvictaHistory]

I'd love to do an episode on the Gangs of Rome!

[@17Scumdog]

@@InvictaHistory yes please 🥺

[@magnemerstrand2289]

Imagine if history channels were of this quality

[@DavionLoyalist]

They’re too busy making shows about how Nazi UFOs secretly funded by the CIA went back in time to build the Pyramids.

[@magnemerstrand2289]

@@DavionLoyalist Lmao exactly

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

@@DavionLoyalist *POV you just turned on History Channel for the first time in 15 years**

[@GTAandApplechannel]

@@magnemerstrand2289 and the Great Martian War

[@Jelly_Juice2006]

They are too busy selling shit at pawn shops

[@TullyBascombe]

In medieval society law was generally administered at the local level. The local authority in one locality largely dictated what was law in that area but his jurisdiction did not extend beyond his borders and he wasn't bound to honor the law of adjacent jurisdiction. There were instances in which a local ruler gave sanctuary to bandits who plundered his neighbors jurisdictions. There were even instances of churches or monasteries doing the same, the bandits would share their loot with the clerics in exchange for safe haven.

[@kadinlong7333]

"The most promising acolyte left us, not out of the lesser folly of sentiment, but the greater folly of anger, his heart was clouded, and his balance was lost, but his abilities were unmatched, even then, we knew to watch him most carefully."-- Keeper Annals.

[@georgethompson1460]

And The Builder said, 'If the foundation is weak, do you wail and gnash your teeth? Do you ask it to repour itself? Nay, you tear it down and begin anew. So shall it be with all My Children, whether they be Stone or Flesh.'

[@Sraxton]

"Gray Fox is not real" -Beggar, spying for Gray Fox. "Thieves Guild is not real" -Invicta

[@maxgrozema1093]

Reminds me of Störtebecker, a medieval dutch/german pirate with an alleged vast network of contacts who shared the loot with his crew equally.

[@mikkelkomstedt8790]

THIS! There was a litteral guild of pirates and privateers called the Victual Brothers (Störtebeker was one of them)

[@zacharymenchaca2336]

Woah, I’m astounded at what you guys did! The animation looked so smooth, it looks almost or close to 60fps! Didn’t expect it for to take such a turn in the story as well, great visual storytelling. Had a good friend work on this, she and all the other people who worked on this did an amazing job!

[@mangalloyd6778]

I'd like to see a beggar's guild in elder scrolls 6

[@budakbaongsiah]

"oNe MoRe CoiN aNd i CoUlD gEt a pAiR oF sHoEs"

[@Marinealver]

I remember my tour in Sri Lanka I watched a "teacher" beggar teaching an "apprentice" in the art of begging, from the proper way to sit, how to place your hands and beg. So yeah, it is still around.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Do a few quests for them and you become the Grand Master Beggar!

[@the11382]

And connect them to Namira, thieves guild style.

[@David-ud9ju]

@@Marinealver A lot of beggars in London are actually people that have been trafficked from Eastern Europe and they're driven around at the start of the day and dropped off in certain locations and then picked up again at the end of the day and taken back to the 1 bedroom flat that 10 of them live at together.

[@dlewoh]

not one other youtuber gets me as excited as this guy I'm on my KZbin everyday waiting for another video keep up the good work!

[@danguillou713]

Well, guild culture pervaded late medieval society, at least in the cities. The guilds didn’t just carry and transmit trade skills, they also resolved conflicts between members as well as represented members against non-members. They policed their areas of responsibility. They also had something like like health insurance, widows pensions, and other social security functions, albeit rudimentary by modern standards. Furthermore they served as vehicles for both status, career advancement and social network for their members. Considering that, I find it hard to believe that three thieves could hang out for three days and do a single job together without calling themselves a ”guild”.

[@CarthagoMike]

The lordship of Frysia, in the modern-day Netherlands, got so fed up with the subtle yet substantial differences in law between the 11 towns and 30 rural area's in its dominion, that in the 15th century they hired Judges from the university of Leuven to try sort things out, since even the lord of the lordship was unable to do so.

[@bopeep268]

The assassins guild existed though. It was formed in Persia as a revolt against arab rule. Litterally the basis for the assasins creed and the word even comes from a persian word based on "hashis".

[@StergiosMekras]

Are you referring to the ones commonly known as hashashim?

[@GameRecorder123]

I do like how you included a Defias member from WoW for the example of 'Aimless independent thugs' when the Defias Brotherhood is the largest criminal syndicate in the realms of Stormwind

[@renaudtheis1197]

Some professions had a legitimate business and at the same time also bandits. Professional soldiers and mercenaries are a good example and well covered in this video. But there were more. For example in Paris, much of the food, wood and hay was brought in by boats. The people unloading these boats were young men who at night roamed the streets of Paris praying on folks walking home later then they should have. They were called “mauvais garçon”, bad boys literally. They had a legit day time organization with a hierarchy and rules. But the same hierarchy existed for there night job, they had streets they would own, rules on how to share plunder, and a code of ethics (of sort). They were also thugs for hire and occasional assassin. They lived a hard and dangerous life, usually ended by a noose. I’m sure other professions well into the same pattern although I can’t think of one right now.

[@turb00o]

Why do you have to use Crusader King's art man, I'm a recovering addict.

[@jonathanrich9281]

When? I didn’t notice it.

[@ReMeDy_TV]

@@jonathanrich9281 @ 2:34

[@Lolpy.]

Don’t worry, you’ll relapse within the year

[@nyahjzt-7430]

Same

[@a.summers9180]

Thank you for this great resource! I'll be using the info in this video for my writings (i.e. novels & D&D campaigns) & to enritch my PC's & NPC's.

[@letswaveabook3183]

When asked about the leader of the thieves guild: He's a fairy tale. The Imperial Watch pretends there is a thief king named the Gray Fox who controls all the thieves in Cyrodiil. Of course it's all just made up to give them an excuse to keep us down

[@Zumbs]

The basic problem is this: Criminals rely of some degree of anonymity. When cities are small, everyone will know everyone and be able to recognize everyone by sight or by voice. Add to this that the medieval world was very violent, with the local lord ruling by force of arms, and often had (or took) the authority to root out the obvious challenge to his power. One might even think that the medieval lord and household had all the hallmarks of a criminal organization of thugs.

[@babi8256]

KZbin videos in 2321: “Did the Mafia really exist?”

[@Ivvyfay]

I like how your example of “unorganized bandits” from MMOs was the Defias Brotherhood, an actual Stonemason’s guild that was completely dicked over by the Human Kingdom of Stormwind and left destitute, so they left the city to live in the countryside and reorganized to overthrow the corrupt aristocracy.

[@xaviotesharris891]

I'd have liked to have seen even a glancing reference to the English term "outlaw," which had a very specific legal significance, and from which groups placed outside the protection of the law likely sprang, later forming or joining any sort "guild" of thieves or other reprobates. My knowledge of the romance languages is slight, but I'm guessing the outlaw concept was present at least in the English kings' continental holdings. Otherwise, this was a lot of fun. Good job.

[@Marinealver]

2:30 Soooo what's the difference between medieval law and today's law then? 5:56 Welcome to the "Hood"

[@darktimesatrockymountainhi4046]

Excellent points that few among us even notice! In my ongoing D&D setting, as well as some characters I’ve played, I simply twist “business” & “logistics” in ways that my criminals are part of legitimate businesses, whose “business” often includes things that aren’t always reported to the scribes & bookkeepers…

[@kingjoe3rd]

"Medieval" is not considered "ancient".

[@hannibalburgers477]

your mom does.

[@dinozauriukas100]

@@hannibalburgers477 your mom first

[@SimonAshworthWood]

In French “ancient” is used to describe the pre-revolution (pre-1789) regime. It is sometimes used this way in English.

[@Lolpy.]

Ancient is sometimes used as a hyperbole to describe something that’s just old

[@Pointillax]

You should look into « La cours des miracles » wich was a Paris district where lived a « guild » of beggars, prostitutes, pickpockets, crooks of all sort. They even had a beggar king crowned. It get’s it’s name from the fact that many beggars faked physical handicaps, that disapeared when they went back home in la Cours des Miracles, amputees walked on their legs again, hunchbacks suddenly straightened and blind children regain sight when night came

[@Abelhawk]

Those code names were really cool and inspiring for my D&D setting.

[@jeromeriedl]

I think the way bandits and criminals are described in the Count of Monte Cristo, is pretty relatable to their modern day counterparts who I have met in some third world countries.

[@caesarshotdogchampion8738]

Attempt #19 Next video should be titled, “Caesar’s Parthian Campaign Part 3”

[@Leivve]

I think the main part missing is the organization a guild would provide. It's more likely these were just loose groups that had a method of identifying each other (the Coquillards thieves cant), and simply had just common networks or connections. Less guildmates and organization, more people with common goals occasionally working together for bigger prizes.

[@Mankorra_Gomorrah]

I guess when you think about it, a thieves guild is just a cooler sounding mafia or any other form of organized crime. I concept of several people working together to commit crimes for mutual benefit isn’t exactly hard to think of (which is why they pop up all over the place) so it would stand to reason that there would’ve been at least a handful of people who figured working together to commit crimes that would otherwise be very risky might just pay off.

[@nicolasmarazuela1010]

In the Taunus region in Germany there was a alliance between robber barons which not only robbed carawans. They also fought successfull wars against cities and pricipalities.

[@MrVvulf]

I was surprised you didn't take the logical step of including the "Condottiero" (aka Free Companies) as organized crime. YES, many of them were sometimes used as legitimate mercenaries (while employed) but they were also mass extortionists, often holding entire regions hostage while exacting tribute payments or "protection money". Most folks interested in history will have heard of "The White Company" of Albert Sterz and John Hawkwood (aka Giovanni Acuto). Niccolò Machiavelli and Leonardo Bruni certainly considered them "well organized" thugs and criminals.

[@galbert117]

I would love to see this channel analyze the Mustering of the Rohirrim as well as the Battle of Pelennor Fields.

[@siejac7894]

Something like that can only function in biggest medieval cities. In case of XV century Poland biggest towns was: Gdansk 35,000, Cracow 20,000, Poznan, Lviv, Torun, Elblag 10,000 Lublin, Warsaw, Sandomierz 5000.

[@magnajota4341]

Paris, Florence and Venice all had half a million. Constantinople even a million

[@siejac7894]

@@magnajota4341 Constantinopole about 500,000, Paris from 200,000- 270,000, venice and Florence idk. but you give to big numbers. I think in cities 5000+ can operate something like thief guild, for medieval times 2,000-3,000 population was big town.

[@Biouke]

Thanks YT, another great History/Fantasy channel. Added bonus: Finally an English speaker who doesn't butcher French names (the only other I can think of is the Metatron but he cheats, he's a language teacher :p ) ! Have my sub, you glorious narrator of well-crafted short documentaries ;)

[@BlaBla-pf8mf]

For a true taste of the seedy underbelly of late medieval Paris the poems of Francois Villon are an excellent source. He even used Parisian thieves' slang.

[@LuisAldamiz]

Worth mentioning another type of criminals: petty lords. At least in Alaba (Álava, Araba) the "hermandades" (brotherhoods) emerged as democratic organizations in order to force justice against the abuses of petty lords, who believed they were above the law.

[@steveblunden2295]

One of the worst cases of organised crime in Medieval England was the Folville Gang. And many of them were of noble birth ! Their rides of terror were finally brought to an end by, of all people, Sir Robert Colville .

[@alicrastd3095]

I think the strongest case to be made for the periods mentioned might be Jonathan Wild in England leading up to Henry Fielding and the bow street runners.

[@scoman91]

Funnily enough, most representations of thieves guilds tend to coincide with a lot of modern interpretations of mafias. Organized, hierarchical crime with trappings of propriety and respect for position within the organization are the hallmarks of both groups as they show up in media, and not without some foundation. Stories from ex mafia corroborate some aspects of this, but generally turn against the notion of fraternity in these groups, most often you were more afraid of your comrades and superiors than you were the authorities. This makes an amount of sense, you're less likely to leave the "guild," rat out members or even just question authority if you're afraid of bloody retribution, which would have been a quicker and easier way of ensuring loyalty among self-interested societal fringes or outcasts than trying to build up bonds of brotherhood, especially for the disenfranchised who want nothing to do with actual authority and thus wouldn't be likely to respect criminal authority without some threat of force to back it up. All in the name of profit, of course.

[@papanurgle8393]

I heard that those Dijon groups could really mustard up a lot of manpower in a short amount of time, and they'd really relish their work when it came down to it.

[@StergiosMekras]

You should be ashamed. Well played.

[@Ramschat]

[initiate edginess] The biggest thieves guild was named "the aristocracy" [/Edginess]

[@michaelpettersson4919]

They are still active, they just go under another name now.

[@tonic9914]

sounds less like [initiate edginess] and more like [initiate ussr theme earrape]

[@princekalender2154]

Great, now I have more stuff to reasearch about. I hope you're happy, Invicta

[@davidnagore725]

When I played D&D, my DM played the thieves guilds like mafia crime families from the 1920s.

[@florianpierredumont4775]

During the Hundred years war, their was quite a bunch of French "guérilleros", former soldiers from beaten armies, or partisans of the french King, whom joined the resistance against the English and their allies. They were able to live on the land, helped by the peasants and some lords. The King was aware of their presence, and could use them for some "coups". So, yes, it's more than likely that thugs and criminals could easily live on the land, and remain hidden for a long time, escaping the guards.

[@pegzounet]

"argot" in french is not specifically this thieve's guild dialect, it is a generic word for "slang".

[@mglenn7092]

Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser series had the Thieves' Guild of Lankhmar... as far as I can tell, the first appearance of that concept in fantasy literature. Leiber was first published as a fantasy writer in 1939, and the Thieves' Guild appeared in the 'Two Sought Adventure' collection of Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories in 1958, if not sooner in pulp magazines. Regardless of historical possibilities, Leiber's writing is where Dungeons & Dragons got the idea of Thieves' Guilds, and it spread through modern fantasy from there.

[@Chocopyro1]

It was the millers. Damn those millers and their daily grind in the outskirts of town! They're up to something sneaky, I'm sure of it!

[@JStaal-do5id]

Kingdome come?

[@Chocopyro1]

@@JStaal-do5id I suppose the answer to that would be "Yes, And" as the miller was a stock character from medieval times, often portrayed as a schemer and a bit of a scammer. Kingdom Come kinda took the idea and ran with it.

[@nocultist7050]

I like the thieves guild in gothic 2. Just a cooperating group existing to support each other. You need places to lay low, you need someone to fence stolen goods, you need various ways of escaping and various means of scouting the places for goods. It looked more like a thief-hackerspace than anything else. There were chests to exercise locksmithing, people would let you train pickpocketing on them. And they cooperated and invested in bigger operations like collecting a whole set of some rare chalices to sell them at a big profit.

[@Mrkabrat]

3:01 Is it me, or is the crossbowm armed bandit holding it weirdly? His left hand looks like its gripping a modern trigger (one like a gun) while the image shows the actual trigger (or tickler) being one you have to press with your hand

[@corngreaterthanwheat]

You gotta do a video on the Beggar's Guild. Solidarity!

[@Annatar]

Great vid as always. Btw around 6:30 you said "run the gauntlet" but the one you want is "run the gamut"

[@kekero540]

You should really do a video on the clout economy in Ancient Rome and how it pretty much influenced EVERYTHING.

[@skydivingcomrade1648]

Vor v zakone. What time frame did the yakuza, Vor v zakone, mafia and other known criminal groups form? Is the idea of organized crime a modern insertion into history or was there a recurring theme of organized crime popping up throughout time and place?

[@ktheterkuceder6825]

I want a medieval thief series.

[@isaacofthales4303]

Do a series on other medieval guilds, please?

[@maldito_sudaka]

SOOO AWESOME! Great video too, every context and nitpick. As a historian, I love it

[@DarshanBhambhani]

Finally, someone talking about the reality of the dex build

[@egoborder3203]

this is really interesting, especially after watching The Shogunate's videos on Japanese ninja, and the debate about whether they ever existed or not