Were there any good Orcs in Middle-earth?

In this video, we look at whether it was possible for Orcs to be "good", and if so, why did we never encounter any?
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/ darthgandalf

[@buuam7555]

I like to imagine teenage Orcs being "rebellious" and doing good deeds/ being polite to people, helping lost travellers.

[@Grubnar]

Are you familiar with the older versions of Warhammer 40.000 ?? In it, young Orkz (yes, that is how it is spelled there) or "yoofs" as they are called, go through a rebellious phase where they polish their armour, and fight in formations and come up with tactics and strategy ... all the while being laughed at by the older Orkz. Most grow out of it, but some don't, and band together and form mercenary bands, and have even been known to fight for humans.

[@Tokmurok]

@@Grubnar lov me rebel bois.

[@MasterSpud]

Oh my god I love this idea

[@purplebrick131]

An interesting scenario would be a band of fugitive good orcs lurking around somewhere and creating a small alternate society, maybe with regular contact with the blue wizards. Perhaps not likely, but sure an interesting concept

[@spaceman9599]

Excellent RP campaign setup!

[@boldandbrash259]

And that's where the Orcish Horde of Warcraft came from

[@ahriskof1]

@@boldandbrash259 FOR THE HORDE

[@CountryLifestyle2023]

No, I could see them aligning with good ppl if it benefited them at the moment. But be prepared to get back stabbed. Short answer no, they are chaotic evil.

[@boldandbrash259]

@@CountryLifestyle2023 said the guy who brutally killed the mercenaries who worked for him

[@justthinkingoutloud2538]

I like to imagine that the first orcs were corrupted elves, and much more deadly than those we face in the TA, almost like drow, but when men appeared on the scene, Morgoth began breeding them with his elven orcs because men breed so much faster, so he could produce way more, creating the breed of orc we are familiar with that run so rampant in later ages. On a related note, I imagine that orcs were bred to be as weak willed as possible so that they would be most susceptible to the power of Morgoth’s will and easily controlled, and under him they were all but mindless thralls with no wills of their own. This meant with the Dark Lord’s power destroyed in the war of wrath, they reacted similarly to the downfall of Sauron, loosing any drive or will to live, and most died quickly, but a few exceptionally strong-willed individuals managed to survive on their own, and they evolved the necessary behavioral instincts to develop their own culture. It was a cruel and savage culture rooted in violence, cannibalism, and all sorts of depravity, as they could hardly survive without preying on those weaker, but at this point I imagine they became capable of more human emotions. Being creatures of darkness, most could hardly resist Sauron’s call when he arose in the East, and became thralls to him, but I imagine that at that point they had become strong enough of will and capable of enough good that some resisted and would not follow, and Sauron had to breed those traits out of those that came to him again. Just some speculation, what do you think?

[@bradylewis1037]

This is pretty close to how I've always thought of it, that they were originally corrupted elves but bred with men as time went on to increase physical strength, lessen breeding time, and lessen will.

[@brandonscott4808]

I strongly agree, especially with how it makes much sense for the orcs being evil in later ages given that they were the offspring of orcs who were corrupted Elves/Humans or bred with captured Elves/Humans in the pits of Angband and so on.

[@istari0]

The problem I see is that orcs never come across as being individually formidable even in the 1st Age. When Morgoth's armies were just orcs, the elves routed them easily. Only when there were balrogs with them (and later other creatures such as dragons), are Morgoth's armies formidable.

[@justthinkingoutloud2538]

@@istari0 Fair point, though I think strategy there is important to keep in mind. The elves used lots of guerrilla warfare to get the advantage on their enemies, and used the terrain to their advantage. The enemy’s forces only knew how to raze everything in their path. I don’t know that that refutes your point, but it did occur to me.

[@DraconimLt]

Yeah, same. 😀

[@ysgramornorris2452]

It's puzzling to me that Tolkien had so much trouble to reconcile Orcs with his personal beliefs. Orcs can be all bad without being *inherently* bad, if they grow up and live in a society molded by a supremely evil mind into one of violence and self-destruction. Orcs *might* be good, they just never get the chance. And it would be Morgoth and Sauron's greatest sin, to deny some of the Children of Ilùvatar free will. Their origin is irrelevant.

[@colonelfalcar1089]

Tolkien was a Christian, and Christian belief dictates that all people, no matter what they've done are able to be forgiven by God and given salvation provided they humble themselves and ask for forgiveness. Tolkien didn't want to write a war story that was just one empire pitted against another, he wanted a story where one side is undeniably evil, that cannot be redeemed for their actions at all. If Orcs were capable of goodness then they would he no different from men and elves, but then they could not be the undeniable evil Tolkien wanted to write.

[@RosseRue]

@@colonelfalcar1089 Perhaps a bit pedantic, but Tolkien was Catholic.

[@colonelfalcar1089]

@@RosseRue that's what I mean by Christian

[@zeropsaft]

@@colonelfalcar1089 there all different types of Christianity Orthodox for example which I am in.

[@colonelfalcar1089]

@@zeropsaft I am actually also Orthodox. Wow I never thought I'd meet another on KZbin of all places. I do know that there are many denominations, but I only consider Orthodox and catholic as Christian (or close to it). As for the innumerable protestant denominations, I refer to them as simply 'modern' christians

[@timonsolus]

I think it was described in Return of the King that secretly some of the orcs wanted to be free of 'the big bosses' (Sauron and the Nazgul). Yes, they may have wanted to be free so they could become bandits instead of the Dark Lord's arrow fodder, but at least they understood the concept of freedom, and weren't mindless automatons or weak willed slaves. So 'free orcs' wouldn't be 'good', but at the very least, they would be scarcely worse than evil Men, like the Dunlendings for example. Also, they would split up into many small bands, and spend a lot of their time fighting each other.

[@johns1625]

The discussion between Shagrat and Snaga (I think that was his name) in Cirith Ungol when Sam is trying to save Frodo gives a brief glimpse into how the Orcs feel about Sauron. They speak together about how they want to run away and start a new life. Also I believe the Uruks and Lieutenants refer to all other orcs as just slaves. So I don't think they are irredeemably evil, but more like a pit bull trained to kill other dogs and attack people. They have moral standards not much different to ours but no ability to actually practice them.

[@Transilvanian90]

Yeah, those two just wanted to desert the army and on their own in small groups, acting as raiders/pirates. Not good by any stretch, but it does reveal a level of independent thinking

[@HeyoSpeaker]

I think it’s interesting to think of orcs as being capable of good, but having almost every possible disadvantage working against them: - Melkor seems to have given them a strong instinct to participate in a hierarchy of dominance and submission. They tend to either act like a bully, submit to bullying, or both. If this is more than just culture and is in fact built-into their nature at a genetic level, it would be extremely difficult for any individual orc to overcome this particular form of evil behavior. - Melkor also gave them a frightening and ugly physical appearance, making it difficult for other races to be willing to engage with them and trust them. - Their long history of evil behavior also makes it hard for other races to trust them. They would have to overcome extreme prejudice arising from the historical reality of their consistent involvement with the forces of evil. - Their ability to trade / work / communicate / engage with other races is hampered by their confinement to the darkness. (Though they and their trading partners could find ways around this with an effort.) - Their ability to participate in agriculture would also be hampered by their confinement to the darkness, pushing them toward a more predatory lifestyle. (Though again there are ways around this.) There are ways around all of these obstacles, but it wouldn’t be easy. Especially if there are clever and powerful tyrants afoot actively trying to exploit these realities for their own ends. For an orc to overcome the tendency toward evil would require a radical degree of selflessness, either on the part of the orc, or on the part of members of other races being willing to take on the risk of giving him/her a chance. The existence of a single “good orc” would be a monument to radical selflessness and a true triumph of good over evil. An entire population of orcs with a culture of good-heartedness would be a miracle.

[@seneca983]

"Melkor also gave them a frightening and ugly physical appearance" I think this has been exaggerated in most depictions. I think they were supposed to far more resemble humans than they're usually depicted. The orcs e.g. mistook Sam and Frodo for orcs so the difference in appearance can't be huge.

[@greyngreyer5]

"Melkor also gave them a frightening and ugly physical appearance, making it difficult for other races to be willing to engage with them and trust them" Nonsense. We all looks don't matter :) /s

[@mike_in_cornwall]

This is such a succinct and well-thought out idea, and captures notions about good orcs that I have been musing about for years, in such a way that you really brought a smile to me. It's really appreciated, thank you

[@margaretalbrecht4650]

In the Last Alliance, we're told that "All living things were divided that day, and some of every kind, even beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only." That certainly implies that there were orcs fighting under Gil-galad and Elendil.

[@Folker46590]

And Dwarfs fighting under the Dark Lord. (Grey Dwarfs?)

[@niklasmolen4753]

It even means that trolls, giant spiders and dragons fought for Gil-Galad and Elendil. Maybe even Balrogs, but they are demigods so they might not go under the heading of "All living things".

[@margaretalbrecht4650]

@@Folker46590 It must. If men did, then why not some dwarves? We never learned a lot about the other dwarf houses.

[@elpsykoongro5379]

@@niklasmolen4753 more like maiar The actual demigods where like the valar

[@littlefoot5013]

@@margaretalbrecht4650 It was stated in The Hobbit that sometimes goblins/orcs made alliances with evil dwarves. I think, however that most dwarves were not fond of orcs and that most orcs were not fond of dwarves.

[@DraconimLt]

Surely there were some at one point, because I've seen it mentioned that while the Last Alliance was named as of Elves and Men, Tolkien states that in fact, all living races came to battle that day, even birds and beasts and that ALL WERE FOUND ON EITHER SIDE except for the Elves, who fought solely under the banner of Gil-galad.

[@Carandini]

It is a very interesting point, and also highlights that you had dwarves fighting FOR Sauron. I wonder if that also includes ents? Maybe that's how the ent-wives were lost.

[@DraconimLt]

@@Carandini yeah I think the Dwarf thing was confirmed by Tolkien, that there were some evil Dwarves. The Ent Wives tho, I think they were lost when Saurons armies marched through what became the brown lands, he destroyed those lands while the Ent Wives were there, tho I'm not positive that was confirmed...

[@CountryLifestyle2023]

@@DraconimLt wasn't confirmed that he wiped them out.

[@DraconimLt]

@@CountryLifestyle2023 no, it wasn't comfirmed they were *wiped out*, that's why I said *lost*. He attacked those lands and they disappeared, it's not said if they were destroyed or fled.

[@CountryLifestyle2023]

@@DraconimLt re read my comment

[@PeterSwinkels]

I remember various stories (some from ordinary kids cartoons and some from science fiction) where a being is adopted which simply can't really fit in. Depressing, but probably realistic.

[@horatiussonofrome812]

This isn't about this video in particular, but more about the channel overall, I just wanted to say that you are a cut above most other Tolkien tubers, and I hope you have a lot of success in the future

[@IrishCarney]

Let's remember that Melkor, Sauron, and the Balrogs were all, at first, creations of Iluvatar that corrupted themselves, or were corrupted by others, and are not irredeemably evil either. And yet they are so evil that their utter destruction should be celebrated with only a small pang, if any, of regret for the lost opportunity for good their fall represents

[@grassblock7668]

I kinda blame Illuvatar for their downfall, it's not like he ever tried to get them back on a good path before they went to Arda. We could argue the entire Silmarillion happens because of a shitty father.

[@goldman77700]

@@grassblock7668 Common theme in mythologies tbh.

[@seneca983]

As even more pertinent example, I think Ossë was corrupted and sided with Melkor at some point but then later changed his mind and changed his alliance back to the Valar.

[@grassblock7668]

@@seneca983 He did side with Melkor (and automatically, with Sauron) for a short period of time, during that time he must have started destroying a shit ton of land, because Aule had to beg Osse's wife Uinen to go get him back, and she did. I think he's the only character who switched from good to evil to good again (not counting Boromir or anyone being influenced by the One Ring). Also, the whole "Melkor sympathizing" phase Osse had could have been avoided if only the Valar kept an eye on him, he just so happens to be the moodiest Maia on Arda, keeping him checked wouldn't have hurt.

[@grassblock7668]

@@goldman77700 True!

[@MarsM13]

It's interesting to me that there is really no serious degree of redemption in Tolkien's books. Evil characters are offered redemption, pretend to accept it, and always prove to have secretly remained evil. Tolkien technically believed in redemption because of his religion, but I don't think he really believed in it in his heart. In his heart, he believed that people are just born good or evil. The clash between what he believed intellectually as a Christian and what he believed in his heart is apparent across his writing both as a novelist and a man of letters.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Interesting comment. Thanks for that.

[@Aengrod]

Astute observation.

[@krisztianpovazson4535]

I'm reasonably sure Smeagol wasn't born evil. He sure did lapse to temptation, though.

[@Greendalewitch]

@@krisztianpovazson4535 Smeagol is the fantasy version of a drug addict. A drug addict isn't evil. He is just addicted. The ring is a drug, who makes those that wear it unable to let it go as time goes on.

[@theautisticguitarist7560]

@@Greendalewitch It's shocking how well he captured what addiction can do to someone.

[@jeramahia123]

It would be so interesting if, based on the corrupted-elves origin, an uncorrupted elf met an orc they once knew when they were an elf - like if the orc was once their father or brother. How cool would that have been!!!

[@SalmanKhan-mo4bx]

That would be sad

[@chamilton35]

Eru could give or take immortality away from living beings (Luthien being made mortal and Tuor being made immortal) and he has the ability to allow souls to leave Arda and go somewhere else. If Orcs are corrupted Elves then maybe the minute the first true Orc was bred, Eru simply took away its immortality and no longer classed it as one of Eldar, and all Orcs that came afterwards where the same, and when they died they followed a similar path to the race of men, though hopefully to different destinations. I can't imagine Eru would necessarily oppose this. The Race of Men constantly did horrific things during the Ages of the world, even the race of Numenor near the end, and yet their souls are still treated as such and allowed to leave Arda. As for good Orcs, the closest example for me would be Shagrat in the Two Towers and The Return of the King, saying he wants to get some good lads together, find a place of their own and, though they talk about pillaging and plundering, they do not desire war or death.

[@istari0]

That would require orcs to have souls, which is what Tolkien decided he didn't want.

[@chamilton35]

@@istari0 You're right, and I understand why he would feel that kind of conflict, I was just giving a possible way of improving on the corrupted Elves idea.

[@hoofie7371]

Shagrat was indeed an interesting case. It kind of does away with the idea of orcs being sort of biological automatons in the hands of one dark lord or another. As much as his speech still reinforced the idea of an evil orc, it also felt individualistic and even loyal to at least some of his brethren.

[@maximus3160]

Yea, setting up a crew to go out pillaging and plundering doesn't exactly sound good...

[@richardbell7678]

I have always been fond of the interpretation implied by the marching song "Where There's a Whip, There's a Way" from the Rankin-Bass adaptation of "The Return of the King". It implies that the orcs are brutalized from a young age and only the cruelest are elevated to positions of any authority. Any 'good' orcs are trapped in the lowest echelons and systematically abused, until they are bent to the will of their overlords. link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKCkl5Vpm5Vno9E

[@ingold1470]

This is essentially how hippies believe all civilization worked before they came along.

[@andrewlim9345]

Thanks for shedding light on the conflicting ideas that Tolkien had for the origins and nature of orcs. Came to this video after watching Rings of Power Season 1 and 2.

[@Uncle_Fred]

Great video. I feel our view of Orcs may be somewhat incomplete. In Tolkien's legendarium, encounters with Orcs are encounters on the battlefield. Any encampments we see are garrison encampments in Mordor, so I imagine this gives us a somewhat skewed perspective on Orcish society. To answer these questions, I think we need to gather more information about life outside the battlefield. I think a good place to start may be the plantation farms around the Sea of Nurn in eastern Mordor. Sadly, no character in the legendarium tells us much about this area. Also, I feel it might make sense to see if Orc behavior changes if they are further removed from the influence of Mairon, his servants, or Melkor's servants. Mairon's influence in Arda ebbs and flows over the ages, but I imagine that even at the height of his power, there are probably distant isolated valleys or mountains in the far east where the Dark Lord has no presence, but where some of Melkor's creations lived. If the eastern dwarvish clans could eke out an existence in these lands, then so could the Orcs. I'd also imagine that for a time, scattered bands of Orcs persisted in the east in the Fourth Age too. What would these free Orcs be like? We may never know.

[@istari0]

I think the idea that is most consistent with Tolkien's view on souls is that Morgoth bred orcs from existing creatures that were naturally aggressive to begin with and also highly intelligent for an animal. Something along the lines of a more aggressive and truly bipedal chimpanzee. This would account for the nature of orc society. They would rarely be taken prisoner and even when they were, they would continue to be so aggressive that it wouldn't be long before they ended up dead. Orcs too young to fight probably wouldn't last long if their parents/caregivers died. They don't strike me as the type of creature to care much for orphans, at least not those from another tribe. I don't remember ever coming across anything about female orcs so I don't have any idea if they would be fighters as well as the males. If not, they would probably be claimed by other males when their mates died. I doubt any orcs tending towards good wouldn't survive childhood in orc society. I imagine the mortality rate among orc young was high. I think trying to raise a baby orc in elven or human society would be like trying to raise a dangerous wild animal such as a tiger or a grizzly bear as a pet only worse. It's not an animal that has been domesticated and you never know when it's true nature will appear. At the same time, orcs have to have some ability to function on their own. After all, some centuries passed between the end of the War of Wrath and Sauron's return and again between the War of the Last Alliance and his 2nd return. The question that next comes to my mind is what about the origins of dragons? They are clearly more powerful and intelligent than orcs and almost all members of the Free Peoples (men, elves, dwarves, and hobbits). It's not as easy to explain them as being bred from lesser creatures. The only explanation I have come up with that makes some sense to me is that Morgoth somehow managed to get one or some of his maia to crossbreed with some very large and dangerous creature.

[@anyoneattheendoftime4932]

_>Something along the lines of a more aggressive and truly bipedal chimpanzee._ Orcs being descended from chimps implies that within the naturalistic worldview, humans are actually orcs.

[@jeffreysommer3292]

It really depends by what you mean by "good." Ugluk was a good leader of his soldiers and was martially virtuous enough that Eomer unhorsed to fight him sword to sword--which in Norse and early Medieval terms, is a sign of real respect. He was disciplined and had no patience with Grishnakh or the Northern Goblins' desire to just kill the Hobbits and leave. He wasn't a nice chap--as Grishnakh points out--but under less trying circumstances, Ugluk was a fairly decent Uruk-hai.

[@spaceman9599]

Interesting challenge, to try for both sides in in Tolkien's world. Hard if the Orcs are a cipher for evil. But really the source of the evil is the corrupter. Can corrupted Orcs be uncorrupted? Can Orcs be 'corrupted' to good?

[@wildbill9490]

The thing about orcs is that they’re fully aware of the fact that they’re perversions of Eru’s work. Their violent, self-destructive behavior is ultimately their lashing out at their sorry lot in life.

[@Megthep3p]

I personally think any "good" orcs would generally leave people alone, open up to certain groups, or treat their fellow orcs fair but firm. Still more self-serving, but in a less destructive way (like Ratbag). If it gives any food for thought, orcs have shown to get along well enough with men and wicked dwarves, so I think it does show there's room for them to open up Also, wicked dwarves would be a cool topic for a video if you haven't already covered them

[@sethnaffziger1402]

I would argue that Tolkien's various villains serve as examples of what people who are consumed by cardinal sins end up doing. They are villianous because they don't repent, but follow the path to it's conclusion. Sauron/morgoth- Pride, Saruman- greed, wormtoungue- lust, orcs- selfishness etc. Also in a letter when Tolkien was asked if the forces of Mordor represented the Nazis, his answer basically said that things in the real world are never so cut and dry, and we must be careful not to become dogmatic to the point of justifying our own horrors... there are often "orcs" on both sides

[@chakatBombshell]

I'd put more into Uruk-Hai being raised outside of their evil culture being able to adapt to being good mainly because they are far more cooperative and intelligent than orcsand won't murder each other when bored and where made by Sarumon basically to replace humans.

[@spaceman9599]

So much good content on this channel!

[@heldenkatze]

It's only a war crime if you lose the war.

[@dardo1201]

“What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?”

[@samiamtheman7379]

Considering Tolkien's would explain away his retcon with Bilbo and Gollum's meeting as Bilbo being a bit of an unreliable narrator, as well as characters like Tom Bombadil being the weird, unexplained parts of mythology that just exist, the different, sometimes contradictory origins for Orcs could be seen as similar to the different, often contradictory origins for the different gods that exist in mythologies, since often they were borrowed and combined from different cultures.

[@Folker46590]

The problem also is that during the Battle of the Last Alliance it states that ALL races were present ON BOTH SIDES, that only the Elves stayed on the side of light exclusively. That would mean there were evil Dwarfs and good Orcs. I've always thought of the Orcs being two or three races, those from of Elves (High Orcs?), those from humans (Orcs) and those from animals (Goblins). Since the Orcs are a slave race and breed for war (Clone Troopers?), and they are bound, on some spiritual level, to whatever Dark Lord holds power. From the Dark Lord they get their lust for evil, their will to keep living, and a sense of purpose. Thus, when Sauron is killed, they lost all that and went mad and many kill themselves. I always wondered what God thought of that, did he blame the Orcs for their crimes? Can you harshly judge someone who is a slave, has no ability to say no, and is ordered to do terrible things? Who is to blame? The slave or the owner?

[@gaebren9021]

I always had a preference to C.S.Lewia over Tolkien for this very reason. Tolkien deciding what the origin of orcs was so to feel justified in his depiction of their "dehumanisation". They need to be evil creatures so that the author can rationalize the violence that is depicted against them. You have created a great video in opening up this topic. Just thinking about the orc inherently evil/neutral/good concept can create a rabbit hole exploring morality.

[@edim108]

I like to look at it kinda like the Dragons in TES universe. Dragons have an instinctual drive to dominate, to be the ones on top and to this end they committed unimaginable atrocities to keep their mortal servants in line for centuries. But there is a good Dragon you meet in Skyrim who plays a vital role in the main plot, Paarthurnax. There are also some at least morally grey Dragons you meet like Odahviing or Durnehviir. To quote "The Old One" himself: "What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?". It is unlikely that you'd ever meet a good Orc, but that doesn't mean there aren't any good Orcs. Chances are slim, but they exist. At least if we take the corrupted Elves/Men origin.

[@olorin7940]

What is much overlooked is the infrastructure and logistics needed of an army of hundreds of thousands orcs that where in Angband just to take an example from the first age. And i reckon the total number of orcs under direct control of Sauron during the war of the ring is many thousands 50k+ at least(haven't really tried to guess a "correct" number) And we dont know exactly how they are made, or how they breed. Tolkien said there is female orcs(unless he changed it and i dont know about it) its just that we dont see them.. like ever. So depending on how big the "litters" are, how long time it takes, how many females you need, how many males you need to hold in reserve. We sadly know next to nothing... All we see is that the male warriors usually dislike if not outright hate each other. So they cant be too stupid either.. But at the same time they cant have a soul? cause that goes against Tolkien's vision of Arda, fëa and hröa and the o.g flame. Honestly i doubt you could turn the thousands of generations of miserable slavery, under the direct presence of Morgoth and Sauron(Also taking into account that no matter how Morgoth changed/altered/made the orcs he imbued much of his essence or spirit into them, directly influencing them forever i would belive, as like with Arda and middle earth the presence or corruption of morgoth will never leave right?) So i think the orcs are too far gone to be honest to be made good or to do good. Unless you bring one in front of one of the valar or something. Just my two cents and alot of rambling.

[@romaliop]

Perhaps the most elegant solution for Tolkien's problem would be that Orcs are captured elves and maybe also men who were disfigured and tortured to the brink of death, but just as their souls left their bodies, Morgoth injected some of his own spirit and/or power into the "hollow" bodies. This would solve every issue Tolkien had with the origin of Orcs. They would be a mockery of Eru's true children without a soul and bound to follow Morgoth's will. The bodies could retain ordinary biological, physical and maybe even social functions like Eru's children that have souls. This would include some form of reproduction that binds some of Morgoth's spirit/power into new bodies, sourced either from the parent(s) or perhaps from the ambient corruption that Morgoth infused to Arda. Perhaps even cannibalism could be a part of this process. It would also move the question of agency from individual Orcs to between Morgoth and Eru, where it is already left somewhat vague on purpose. Orcs could thus have agency in the same sense that Morgoth has agency with respect to Eru. So they can supposedly do certain things autonomously, but in the end whatever they do has its source in Morgoth, just as everything Morgoth could ever do ultimately stems from Eru himself.

[@nunyanunya4147]

"... i made a whole lot ov 'good ork' once..." ~Boromir

[@stevewantsabannana]

I think without the influence of the evil forces. Morgoth, Souran, Saroman. If left to there own they could have a path to good. I think they could possibly be good. Just imagine these characters being so indoctrinated as to not think of anything other than war and violence. Perhaps given more time and free will I could seem them with a warrior society like Japan, Sparta, or the Aztecs. In regard to the baby orc. It would be hard and it would have to be more like a breeding out of wild traits like domestic animals, as bad or harsh as it may seem.

[@tonts5329]

I do remember an Orc Bard that was infatuated with Elves and teamed up with the female elf that was aiding Talion in Middle Earth: Shadow of War. That game also referenced other methods of Orc creation, particularly one ancient orc archer that disliked Sauron in the Third Age. There was also those twin pyromaniac/demolition expert orcs that showed concern and care for one another, which suggests that orcs/uruks in general were capable of some small amount of good. I know it's all technically not canon, but I do like them as examples of a 'good orc' in Middle Earth. Ultimately I think Orcs are probably capable of limited good, but given they're twisted/corrupted creatures they would struggle a lot more, living in a more peaceful society. The 'best' I could see for them, is maybe getting some parcel of land to live on, until they either wither away and die, or can be redeemed and rehabilitated generationally. Orcs are probably destined to go extinct in Middle-Earth though, probably by the end of the Fourth Age.

[@Canadish]

It's not just that The Shadow of War games aren't cannon, they're basically a mockery of the original text. This is the same game where they made Shelob a sexy woman. I'm not taking anything they did as remotely accurate to the original Tolkien's ideas.

[@libertyprime2013]

If I had to choose my answer would be “all of the above.” Essentially orcs would be a catch all term for humanoid like creature corrupted by Morgoth as a parody of existing life. So some orcs would be twisted humans, others corrupted elves, and finally the smaller ones would be like animals that were given limited sentience.

[@bleekskaduwee6762]

You have one of the most underrated channels on KZbin sir

[@kadmii]

what if Morgoth had bred corrupted elves together with animals selected for their traits? with canines so they'd produce litters and have the ability to act and fight in a coordinated manner, for instance. The purpose of including an elvish and eventually mannish element? to be a mockery but otherwise they're literally monstrosities

[@leornendeealdenglisc]

Well done. I didn't know tolkien had many origin stories for orcs.

[@odinwarlock2436]

One thing that I love about shadow of war is how it changed the orcs to be a tragic tale. They can be good if they were not always controlled and manipulated by the current dark lord. They are a race of people that could do great things if they weren't being controlled.

[@Folker46590]

Also, Shelob was not just a stupid spider, but could talk and be reasoned with.

[@timonsolus]

I think it was believable that the orcs wanted to be free of 'the big bosses' (Sauron and the Nazgul). Yes, they may have wanted to be free so they could become bandits instead of the Dark Lord's arrow fodder, but at least they understood the concept of freedom, and weren't mindless automatons or weak willed slaves. So 'free orcs' wouldn't be 'good', but at least they would be no worse than evil Men.

[@Cat_Woods]

I think it's just a weakness of the particular world Tolkien built, based on the need to have fodder soldiers that it can be a virtue to kill without knowing anything about them. As a kid, I was appalled by the story -- I think it's in the Silmarillian -- that the orcs were made from kidnapped and _tortured_ elves. Until very recently, I thought that was his official and final word on the matter. That's horrible -- they're basically demonized by their trauma. The message is that it's not possible to heal from torture and all your descendants will be evil. Not that he intended that. I just think it's a flaw in Tolkien's worldview as well as his fictional world that he didn't understand the implications of that idea. The implications he did understand -- based on believing that creatures with souls must be redeemable -- were almost as bad anyway. To me that's not relieved if orcs were made from kidnapped and tortured animals. Animals in the wild DO show rudiments of morality and compassion, especially mammals, especially social ones, so it's just not true that orcs being made from animals would make them robots. I don't think it's fixable. It's just something to keep in mind about this fictional world. It has some ideas that are limited and have some unfortunate implications. Best not to put too much stock in those particular ideas.

[@fromthecheapseats7126]

8:18 The good guys are only shown attacking armed forts, which are military targets.

[@dakotastein9499]

notice tolkine refused to call them "irrideemably evil" this means like everyone they have free will... i personally believe them being corrupted elves fits the most because it paints a larger picture of the themes that Tolkin's works were trying to establish...as everything revolves around the concept of sin and the human heart. at its core Sin is not something that is simply opposed to good,rather it is a contorsion and abuse of something that is good...made profane until it serves a dark purpose...Orcs are the best example of not only this...bue the arguemant of Nature vs. Nurture...you got to factor in they morgoth and sauron didint just create them and send them on thier merry way....they actively shaped them into thier soldiers and forced thier loyalty...they were just as much victims of saurons cruelty as everyone else was,more so in fact. it makes me believe that with sauron destroyed for good and removed from the equasion...the orcs can finally be left to thier own devices...and over time they can develop an identity of thier own that isnt subjected to some master forcing them to be an army.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Yes of course they must have a traceable amount of good in them, they are also the children of Ilúvatar. The ones that were given up for adoption to a creep in a candy van though

[@istari0]

I think that is why Tolkien wanted to change their origins so they would be animals and not Children of Ilúvatar.

[@specialnewb9821]

One very interesting idea I heard was that orcs recieved supernatural based gifts from the dark lords that helped make them what they were, somewhat like an evil version of the Numenorians. After Sauron's defeat those gifts would slowly be withdrawn and so spiritually and physically they would slowly slide back closer to men and elves. This could make good orcs

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

Maybe we never found a good orc because every time a good orc is born they are killed.

[@rikweeds2306]

I dont think morgoth corrupting elves is a bad move by tolkien because elves have a soul so it would undermine iluvitar. I think its the opposite because it shows that a soul can be corrupted by enough evil and morgoths miasma/corruption was incrediblypowerful

[@brandonscott4808]

Here's the way I see it. Morgoth captured and corrupted elves into orcs. Those very same orcs bred with enslaved elves creating another batch of orcs (goblins/hobgoblins). Although useful, their slow to reproduce which explains why Morgoth bided his time when attacking the people's of Beleriand. As Morgoth fell by the end of the First Age, Sauron started making his own breed of orcs by corrupting humans into orcs. Given that there were less elves in Middle Earth by the time of the Second Age, there weren't that many for him to corrupt (and that he's aware that their reproduction time is to slow). From the Second to the Third Age, Sauron had his corrupted orcs breed with humans who where either enslaved or given as tribute. Sauron's orcs have a faster reproduction time and at some point gave rise to the Black Uruks (most likely due to Sauron's magic that altered them further). By the time Saruman started craving for power, his orcs were mainly offspring remnants of Morgoth and Sauron's orcs that mingled with one another in the Misty Mountains. Saruman tries to replicate Sauron's creation of Uruks by having his orcs breed with the Dunlandings (more likely the Wildmen folk). Half-orcs were the result of orcs breeding with humans. Goblin-men were the result of goblins breeding with humans. And finally the Uruk-hai were the result of Half-Orcs breeding with Goblin-men.

[@justthinkingoutloud2538]

Only one comment, that Tolkien uses the terms “goblin” and “orc” pretty much interchangeably.

[@BelegaerTheGreat]

*Didn't some Orcs at Cirith Ungol say they wanted to run away and start a society somewhere far in the east?*

[@jackolantern147]

"The only good goblins are those who never emerge from their holes."

[@Youtubesucks916]

I WANTED orcs to be a natural race primitive like goblins and them ora kai (sorry if I misspelled that) were the corrupted Elvis’s that’s why they can be in the sun and are big and buff

[@OdiVonDobi22]

They should have an orc A cappella group, that would be groovy 😎

[@IrishCarney]

I was going to say they'd have a hard time finding a tenor let alone a falsetto, but then I remembered the "why can't we have some meat?" guy... kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaiXn3Zupst6f9U

[@anti-liberalismo]

Well, at least we know that trolls were capable of feeling compassion, since a troll took pity upon Bilbo.

[@glennross85]

There was a fantasy series called Bodyguard Of Lightning that was about a band of Orcs who rebelled against their dark lord master.

[@Diegoromir]

In my headcanon, the orcs of Warcraft universe originated from a group of orcs who surrendered to the Valar in fear, at the end of the War of Wrath, who could not kill them, since they had surrendered and the Valar saw them as Melkor's victims as much as elves and men, thus this particular group of orcs were sent to the World of Draenor where there, in contact with the elements, acquired a more shamanistic lifestyle based on warrior honor and developed a particular culture, but still retaining traces of their ancestral servants of Melkor, such as brutality, appreciation of violence, bloodlust and warlike lifestyle.

[@rodgark77]

Warcraft orcs are mammals, Tolkien orcs are made. AFAIK

[@spaceman9599]

@@rodgark77 and Warhammer Orcs are actually sentient fungus spores!

[@boldandbrash259]

Imagine Boromir being slain by Grom Hell Scream

[@maximus3160]

@@rodgark77 only in the ridiculous movies...

[@elpsykoongro5379]

@@rodgark77 not in the games

[@olroyohboy1119]

They are so high identical to the ancient tales of the Belu ogres and the Rakshasa that Tolkien may never have invented them, but was inspired. There also was myths of dark, furry beast men who roved the forests at night. But the orc is so SO similar to the Indonesian Belu that it's hard to believe he genuinely came up with them. Same for hobbits, those are pretty much just Brownies and the original mythical HobGoblins.

[@emmanuelgoldstein319]

There are hairy, beastly and evil creatures in almost all folklore, like for example Grendel and the Wendigo, any one of them could have been the inspiration for orcs. Or alternatively they could look the way they look simply because this appearance is naturally frightening to the reader, which makes it easy to accept that they are evil.

[@jethrojamesachivida4083]

Kirill Eskov, a Russian paleontologist, wrote "The Last Ringbearer", which is essential LOTR fanfic. His perspective to it challenges the usual notion of "history written by victors". He presented the Orcs in a different light.

[@AlmostEthical]

Hard to imagine baby orcs. If they needed parental care, the wouldn't that mean orcs doing good? It would be fun if orcs were like lemon sharks, where the strongest foetus eats its siblings in the womb and is born a functioning predator. Eru would allow them to exist because predators help to maintain balance.

[@te9591]

This is a neat idea.

[@xboogsx]

Honestly probably depends the most on your definition of good. On the side of men and against Sauron? Probably not and if at all, it would be very minimal. However, I think it's likely there were a fair few "good" orcs in that they were classically good. Noble, trustworthy, relatively kind, and loyal, but they were on the other side. Essentially the same as with men, however I imagine the proportion of "good" orcs to bad is very different to that of men. Just a thought. Kinda wish Tolkien had written more about the orcs and how they acted in their own societies. Always nice to know the enemies of the story you're reading.

[@glennwatson3313]

I'm no Tolkien scholar but I'm sure I read that Orks were corrupted Elves and Trolls were corrupted Ents.

[@Seraphus87]

And then Tolkien changed his mind... that pops up so often that I feel it is perfectly fine to ignore parts of the lore which make no sense and go with whatever headcannon makes more sense.

[@samiamtheman7379]

Considering Middle Earth is Tolkien's thought experiment on an English mythology before the invasions, you could see the different, often contradictory origins for the Orcs as similar to how different mythologies often have different, often contradictory origins for gods, as well as how there are different variations of some stories, depending on the author, like with the different versions of Hades and Persephone.

[@elpsykoongro5379]

@@samiamtheman7379 Tolkien was English? Wasn't he Irish?

[@eggardkingofthemountain1592]

Got a theory idea for you. What if the Longbeard Clan got entirely wiped out during the awakening of Durins-Bane?

[@simonmorris4226]

Gimli and Legolas made 83 between them at Helms Deep alone!

[@draskang]

There have been plenty of humans who were raised in good homes by loving parents that were by all outward appearances "irredeemable". having a race of creatures which has essentially be mutated to the extent that Morgoth did makes it easy to say they are evil.

[@SalmanKhan-mo4bx]

The most likely way an orc would grow into a good being is to be adopted as a baby by elves. If so, there might be a chance it will turn into something which is not a morgoth's orc anymore. Just being born an orc is already bad enough without living in an orc tribe, so how does an orc baby comes to age in that environment? orcs must have had an extremmely high reproducement rate since they might kill their own offsprings often, unless morgoth made it so they wouldn't be able to harm their own children. Perhaps they need the higher will that controls them to intervene so they won't harm their own young ones, and are under such influence they can grow in numbers in a very short time since most of their offsprings survives. In other words, the theory is that an orc genocside is not needed sincye removing the higher dark lord that controls is enough to reduce their numbers from hundreds of thousands to a scattered tribes of less than a hundred. Also if this goes along there is no need to take pity on an orc baby since they are very common wherever they are kept. As for the origin of the orcs, there is no reason to not assume that orcs actually come from all the different origins that Tolkein gave them. Some were animals, some were made of stone and mud, and some were corrupetd from any other race that fell into the darkness hands, and therefore they have many ways to reproduce the way they did, there may be orc that are good, and there may be orcs who are plain animals or automatons of dark entities.

[@Harry-uq9qd]

Good orcs weren't part of the story Tolkien wanted to tell, but I'm convinced they could be part of a different story in Arda. I don't think he would write characters such as them to be irredeemable, he wrote it himself in the letter. Thus, while the chances are small, it's still possible that there are good orcs, and even quite a few of them given how many have existed in total.

[@oscarernstell6214]

This is a topic where Tolkien made it unnecessary complicated. He pondered these issues with the orcs, yet allowed millions of evil men, thousands of evil dwarfs, and hundreds even of evil elfs. Even some "gods" turn evil. There is thus no need to explain an inner essence of orcs. An orc with a soul doesn't conflict with anything anynore than any other creature acting with evil purpose. In fact, if not choosen but by instinct, is an act even evil? Is the wolf evil or just doing wolf stuff? If the orc is just a beast can it be evil?

[@ShadesApeDJansu]

After seeing Uruk Hai Boromir / Aragorns fight, i used to run at the forest using stamina imagineing that i am Uruk-Hai and that i have unlimited stamina, ofc i dont have but that orc mentalitety takes you far even running at a forest. As finn i am confused with trolls and orcs, orc i know the popular troll is big sluggish craeture or tall one but in finnish mythology trolls or goblins are just like orcs

[@Fly-the-Light]

Tolkien used Trolls as giant orcs, and goblins interchangeably with Orcs. It’s only later that we look at Uruks and try to categorise Goblins and Orcs as separate things.

[@elpsykoongro5379]

@@Fly-the-Light uruks are enhanced orcs who were breed with the purpose of being better at everything

[@mr.boombastic2280]

What is the game that u used footage from? Looks cool

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Lord of the Rings Online.

[@Reprodestruxion]

Just chillin’ makin’ a killin’

[@huntclanhunt9697]

My favorite interpretation is that they are corrupted elves and men, but they have had so many generations of corruption and have suppressed their good parts to the point that they can't be redeemed by men or elves. Eru may be able to redeem them, but they are beyond the ability of man, elf, or even the Valar. Effectively it's the perfect storm of misfortune leading to them never being redeemed that we know of, at least until Eru chooses to redeem them.

[@Barnabas64]

Saying there could "good orcs" is like saying there could be "good Nazis." A "good orc" wouldn't be an orc but something else. It's like the difference between what we see in Gollum and Frodo/Sam. Gollum is Gollum because he is bad. When for a moment, in the books, he considered repentance he ceased to be Gollum but became an old withered hobbit named Smeagol.

[@IrishCarney]

Within living memory, large numbers of Japanese fought to the death, in part due to social norms and fear of punishment and patriotic loyalty and religious fanaticism, but also because they had been lied to and told that Americans were cruel torturers. On Okinawa women flung themselves off cliffs, taking their children with them, to avoid being captured, based on these lies. So it doesn't take a specially bred, tortured, magically influenced being to act like that - humans can.

[@sockshistorychanel7715]

I was having religious doubts but this helped me overcome them thank you

[@sockshistorychanel7715]

@ウルトラマン Idk why it did lol, probaly becuse orcs we’re part of erus plan and I have a weird mind

[@BaranZenon]

I know its not canon, but in Shadow of War DLC we can meet a VERY old orc, who apparently was alive during the First Age. And he didnt follow Sauron, calling him a messly pretender to Morgoth, which was his true master, and was just doing his stuff.

[@meskalin64]

Evil= orc. So there are no orcs that are not evil.

[@aswad7368]

Good and bad from the elf and mens perspective is not the same if we look at this from the Orcs perspective! Their nature it seems is to be bad from the perspective of elves and men but this is their nature thus they are good from their own perspective and are acting according to their nature so everything is relevant!

[@miscelaneo6595]

The lack of orcs prisioners is absolutely remarcable. In the milennia of periods of war and peace of the known history of Middle Earth I am sure that it would have been many opportunities to capture orcs and, after that, to try to rehabilitate them, by the free peoples and the Valar and the Maiar, similar to the case of Gollum. That, in my opinion, would be the merciful and Christian thing to do, not just to kill them all so as to put an end on their miserable (and harmful) lives. On the one hand, if the average orc were too difficult to rehabilitate, even from the baby state, and end up committing suicide or fleeing and dying in the wild, at least his or her life would had more dignity than that of a normal society of orcs and dark lords. On the other hand, it would probably be some orcs with enough good traits, despite all, to have a good enough life until reaching its natural ending, maybe at least living as slaves or as servants for good purposes (but not having a normal life and reproducing and continuing as a rehabilitated race, I am afraid). Or maybe that would be one of the good intentions that pave the way to hell, resulting on a too hard task and in the end just serving to weaken, distract and corrupt their master races. Perhaps some day I will do a channel going beyond telling the known lore and little more. A channel with more profound speculation and compararon with things in real life.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

What makes you think that any Orc ever accepted or expected the option to surrender?

[@miscelaneo6595]

@@Crafty_Spirit XDXDXDXDXDXD. Leaching jokes apart, there could be many occasions when surrender would be unnecessary. For example, if the orc is unconscious, or id he is unarmed and surrounded or just single-handly defeated and inmovilized. Once tied and properly enough controlled, he couldn't attack nor even commit suicide. He would be absolutely summited and at your expense as long as you keep the watch and control effort and not make mistakes, as any plant or animal. But it is a good question. I don't know to what extent orcs wouldn't surrender. I think that, at least some, would prefer to survive. Maybe many would die out of fear, desperation or madness. However, not all orcs experienced a strong control of Morgoth's or Sauron's will without whom would become crazy; instead, somewi were quite independent: for example, some Misty Mountains' orcs during The hobbit's events. They should be better candidates for prisioners, I guess. However bis, there is the sunlight issue, indicative of a deep evil's dependency and difficulty to manage and mantein them as useful prisoners... 🤔🤔🤔

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@miscelaneo6595 Interesting regarding their vulnerability to sunlight. Hm I guess if an Elv or Human did not want to kill a defeated orc, the best option would be to let him run off (e.g. most casualities in actual ancient and medieval history occured when an army routed and was chased down by cavalry) unless you'd have the oddly specific circumstances you've mentioned.

[@istari0]

I imagine the orcs as having an attitude to that of so many Japanese soldiers in WWII. They wouldn't surrender and even in those situations where they were incapacitated but were still alive, would members of the Free Peoples even make the effort to take them prisoner? Remember that when elves first encountered dwarves in Beleriand, the elves thought the dwarves were animals.

[@miscelaneo6595]

@@istari0 I am not very pleased with some behaviours and attitudes of the free peoples, that I consider mediocre, selfish and unempathetic (and some borderline stupid, like the case of the first dwarf encounters un Beleriand). Partially that is the reason why I think that it could have been many orc captures and it were none known. But there were pre-modern hard times (besides quite fictitional, as seen in the lack of work, economics...). It's interesting that the bad guys did take prisioners, like the Great Goblin did; although with not charitative intentions and I imagine that free people would be less problematic prisioners than orcs. To conclude, seen from a plot-hole perspective, in The hobbit I think it is said that the Mirkwood elves take any intruder creature as prisioner and treat them well except from the big spiders. ¿Where are some examples with orcs? (The desolation of Smaug film does not give a valid canonical one, XD).

[@stu2tru392]

I think orcs once being an elf fits best because they may once have had a soul which was inherently good but that soul would have been defiled when the transition was made

[@SvenDzahov]

I think an orc raised in elvish society from birth would be socialized enough as an elf. *albeit experiencing clear discrimination and learning about its own history purely in a negative light*. An interesting case study to look into is the child ‘raised’ by wolves. Or just in general people who at a very young age are lost into the wild and survive. They cannot speak, their cognitive functions severely hindered, and they display a personality what we would consider animalistic. Because ultimately your environment makes you. An orc is violent because it grew up in a very cold unforgiving world with a literal evil overlord master binding its will to your society. If it were raised as an elf, its instinct wouldn’t be to fight wouldn’t be violence at everything as it is in orcish society. After all if your friends and all authorities figures vehemently shun said action, and the way we learn is observing others and cause and effect pattern recognition. If you learn from birth to use violence means YOU are punished and you do not seek the result you are looking for. Then you stop using violence to solve issues. Its why parent’s who let their babies cry, stop having their children cry when they want food or attention, they learn to use other methods with a beneficial cause and effect. Unless they are in fact, NOT sentient and thus do not develop a personality or soul. In which case they cannot be evil, they would merely be machines. If an orc is just sauron’s will. It is not an orc as a creature, it is an orc as a tool.

[@williamfinch9858]

Didn’t the movie Thor sort of explore what would happen if an Orc-like creature was found and raised by another race?

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

@@williamfinch9858 if your speaking of Loki, I’m not sure i’d go comparing ice giants to orcs as the former wasn’t created through evil incarnate. There’s also the issue of His upbringing being having certain factors screwing up the process

[@themightypen1530]

I do believe Tolkien wrote in one of his letters that there were orcs that were good (or at least not evil). He was going to have The Fellowship encounter a band of good orcs, but thought it would drag down the narrative. Edit: I have tried to find a reference or source for this and despite my best efforts I can't actually find the letter it's from. I was tempted to remove my comment as a result but I don't want to hurt the video's metrics so I'll just leave this disclaimer instead.

[@oopus4]

That's alright buddy, the letter will pop up someday.

[@QalOrt]

Can you do a video on the good troll who befriends the hobbits from the Adventures of Tom Bombadil?

[@ysgramornorris2452]

Also, I read somewhere that Orcs, under Sauron at least, actually had a more positive society than the other peopleq give them credit for. They were good at medicine and very organized. Of course it was twisted by Sauron's influence (good healers can keep their comrades alive to keep fighting your wars, and order is tyranny when you're a control freak), but in and of itself orcish society had a few positive traits.

[@teddy1721q1]

yeah you can see it when they capture the hobbits in the books, they show loyalty and bravery with the knowledge their probably going to die to the horseman

[@Grubnar]

Years ago, I played a real-time strategy game on my PC, where one of the factions was Orcs. But these Orcs had an interesting origin. They were descended from elven and human prisoners, that had been experimented on by injecting them with blood for daemons. In this world, daemons had invaded from a different world, using magical portals. The elves and humans were losing the war, badly, and in their desperation had experimented on prisoners, trying to create soldiers who could fight the daemons on equal footing. It worked, but after the war was over, these new Orcs, who had been promised freedom, were seen as too dangerous to be set free, so they rebelled and fled to the wildlands (mountains and deserts) where they became a new race. They were not good, nor were they evil. They were neutral, capable of both good and evil! Although the game was poorly balanced and designed, I still remember the backstory, because I thought it was interesting.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Yeah, Orcs generally have pretty interesting backstories in other fantasy IPs.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Assuming that orcs are evil, the christian consideration of grace and redemption mitigates against orcs being corrupted men. When these man descended orcs die they go straight to judgement without a chance of forgiveness. This isn't the case with elves. When orcs bred of elves die they go to Mandos, are rehabilitated, then reincarnated. While their first incarnation as orcs is a hideous experience their subsequent incarnations give them the same chance at redemption as the rest of the elves.

[@Cyberdemon1542]

I think Ratbag from SOM is a very good example of a good orc.

[@PaulWaak]

There's another level to this question. When Sauron is defeated the hold of his will over the orcs is broken. So, to what extent would a good orc be able to act good while under the will of Sauron or Morgoth. Would the fourth age suddenly have newly free and good orcs appear?

[@istari0]

I would say no. There were periods of time in the early 2nd and 3rd Ages when no dark lord was active in Middle-Earth without any indication of good orcs appearing.

[@SvenDzahov]

@@istari0 active and present aren’t the same thing. Sauron was very much present especially in the second age, albeit his physical form diminished. Remember he had a physical form even without the ring. Gollum described his hand only having 4 fingers and his piercing glaze

[@istari0]

@@SvenDzahov That's true although he did lose his form when Númenór was destroyed. It didn't take him long to recover from although he could no longer assume a fair form. In the 3rd age he lost his form and as best I can tell it was about a thousand years before he was able to take a new one minus the one finger.

[@therussianbear4844]

So middle earth shadow of war took place BEFORE lord of the rings and talion dominated orcs and made them serve him, so orcs like “forthog orc-slayer” still serves the bright lord and has since celebrimbor recruited him, so therefore orcs still serve him and celebrimbor but only in Mordor. I can confirm this, most morgoth orcs joined the bright lord after he was defeated, killing Sauron’s orcs and other outlaws. ALSO talion is one of the nazgul that hunted Frodo because after letting isuldur and getting betrayed and separated from celebrimbor the elf (I forget her name) wore the new ring but refused to use it for domination because she thought that was slavery, but talion after getting the ring taken away has to wear isuldurs ring and slowly turns into a Nazgûl eventually, he does but he was killed after the volcano erupted on him but ringwraiths and necromancers have the ability to revive themselves so talion might be alive as a Nazgûl and hunts Frodo and his orcs like akoth, forthog, bow of morgoth, and more probably still serve him and are out there, but if that she-elf is still alive and has the ring she could still use it for domination and fight against the orcs and Nazgûl. Before I said ringwraiths could revive themselves but when the elf stabs him in the middle earth DLC talion quotes “I am banished from death” and proceeds to disappear so he could be alive and the elf and talion say “you cannot defeat or kill the Nazgûl, only banish them” so I think there are still good orcs out there in Mordor and all throughout Mordor and middle earth just like the enchanted, in the description for them it says “when the enchanted see an elf they get fascinated by there beauty and beautiful face and mostly likely to betray there master to help the elf” and there is an enchanted who finds the elf and betrays Sauron to serve her. So that’s my theory you can ask questions in the replies.

[@nipoone6109]

I hate the modern depiction of orcs in most fantasy works, creatures obsessed with honour and powerful warriors with a more violent but still advanced society. Basically just humans with different colour skin.

[@yikan1107]

I like another idea. That orcs lived like normal societies only theirs would always be disrupted by being vicinity to a special radiation that is keyed to their dna. Yes they are good. But they are also built from the ground up to be the hand of Mordor. Wouldn’t it be wild if the orcs are descendants of the lost blue wizards ?

[@AzraelThanatos]

At the time of the alliance, it's said that every race fought against Sauron there...so renegade Orcs are possible there either as good, or at least fighting against the rest of them.

[@CroDubr0vnik]

If orcs could be good some would for sure run away from others.

[@thorshammer7883]

The way I see it the creations of Morgoth are loosely a bit like another creature described in the Bible, taught in Ancient Hebrew appearing in First Enoch and Jubilees the most where they are described as completely evil and every imagination in their hearts were only evil continually. They were decendents of the Watcher Fallen Angels who bred with human women resulting in the nephilim who also were called demons when they die and become a disembodied spirit. They corrupted nearly every creation and were not just sadistically violent but also wicked in other ways too such as like their fathers they deceived and forced people into worshipping them as gods, making idols, and commit blood sacrifice in their name and idealogies which were abominations and desecrations against Yahuah and his original creations. Now it's obvious Morgoth's corrupted creations were not exactly like the nephilim and corrupted animal hybrids and did not have as much of larger roles as the nephilim do in the stories in the same manners and not as but the similarities are there to make connections as both are by their own existence evil in heart continually, though the nephilim are more deceptive in their tactics if they got entire occult and pagan religions surrounding them while in a disembodied form. And who knows maybe JRR Tolkien was subconsciously influenced by that concept and he didn't fully realize it as Catholicism unfortunately does not teach such topics as the Ancient Hebrew view as well as the earliest christians who continued them did.

[@averongodoffire8098]

And that’s where Tolkien’s works and his inspirations diverge He for sure was inspired by the nephilim and related “evil” spirits and beings in myths but what he made became its own thing and that made the orcs something else, it also shows why Tolkien wrestled with the idea of “good orcs” as they are inspired by more openly evil creatures but in his world the way evil and living creatures work is different than what he took inspiration from

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Well, Sauron and Morgoth deceived men into praying to false idols, so that element occurs in both story traditions. Very interesting comment you made, this creature was completely new to me!

[@istari0]

Actually, to me at least, that sounds something similar to an explanation for the origins of dragons.

[@thorshammer7883]

@@averongodoffire8098 Well the way evil works in his realm and the way it works in the Bible are mostly similar to a degree I would say. Though evil is more bounded and unable to do physical harm as much because Yahuah gives out commands that out right suppresses it like Michael retraining Satan constantly. And the seven Archangels completely mopping the floor with demonic spirits and fallen angels. Raphael sure did prove that when he imprisoned Azazel the leader of the Watchers without too much effort in the book of First Enoch.

[@thorshammer7883]

@@Crafty_Spirit Indeed they did. However they were not as good at it on a world wide level and didn't create as many willing followers as they were hoping for. However in the Bible the sad thing is men fall away from Yahuah on mass very easily. Such as in the book Jubilees right after the flood leading up to Nimrod and the tower of Babel. The wicked occult religions were pretty much everywhere again unfortunately from evil spirits simply influencing the minds of people subtely even when their numbers were reduced to one tenth of their quantity while the others were imprisoned it still occurred. You could say Tolkien's world was lucky the populus didn't suffer the same devastating results as much.

[@jeffagain7516]

I think we might also take into consideration, that both The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are written from the perspective of Bilbo, Frodo and later, Sam. These three at no time came across Orcs that showed even the least inkling of passivity or neutrality, let alone "goodness'. The Silmarillion, though not explicitly narrated by an individual, was considered a collection of tales handed down from previous generations and likely enough, providing information from the perspectives of individuals. Once more, no tale teller ever mentions even the concept of a "good Orc". So, though we the receptive "real world" reader and of course the "real world" author are provided the liberty to debate such topics, the characters are not. This does bring to mind another concept that has found even more acceptance and some would say (including me) over saturation. That of the "Faceless Evil". It is FAR more acceptable in entertainment media for our heroes, story victims and the overall malaise of the world storied, to be confronted by evil characters that have little or no redeeming qualities of any sort, therefore their deaths and even wholescale slaughter, may be carried out with impunity and without regret. Look at the enemies confronted by Marvel and DC Superheroes. Consider the 'Slasher' films, with evil perpetrated by masked or magically enhanced 'human monsters'. It's far easier on our psyche to see such enemies totally annihilated whilst still allowing us a good night's sleep. Even "Nazis", continuously used as the enemy in far more stories than warranted, are stripped of all humanity and redeeming character when fought, so their obliteration is quite welcome. The main problem with this of course, is it often makes War and horrifying confrontations quite sterile. The fact that warriors throughout the ages have been haunted and cursed with severe PTSD following such real world fights, is often overlooked by the passive audience. A blessing perhaps but also a curse, for those who fail to examine all aspects of history, are doomed to repeat them.... :)

[@PueyMcCleary]

I can think of one good orc. Mork from Ork! Nanoo, nanoo!

[@mattbrian9056]

Wat about ratbag? He seems to display somewhat "good" qualities as did ranger (a bit). Edit. Nvm

[@Darth_Melek]

I think that Orcs could have been both made of men and elves having their souls taken from them and being corrupted into orcs. Morgoth would have first bred Orcs out of animals first managing to create the wargs and trolls, then he uses the same methods on the elves created the first Uruks. When men first awoke he took sone of them as well and created another type of Uruks. Having two sub types of orcs based on two different species would explain some of their body build straits.

[@TheDutchPhysicist]

are there any child orcs, female orcs or orc families?