Werner Herzog calling BS on American film schools

[@theodorerooseveltsantlers270]

"Don't take media studies,. Take something useful, Philosophy, History, English. Learn to have thoughts, because there's no point to making movies if you're just imitating other people, if you have no thoughts of your own. -Terry Gilliam

[@jamesanthony5681]

Good advice.

[@ericfurst6091]

Just in case it doesnt work, be a plumber. T. Gillian 😂😂😂

[@ronaldbell7429]

In the Rodney Dangerfield movie "Back to School", Rodney played a rich man going back to college. There was a gag, where he hired Kurt Vonnegut to write a paper about his own books. The teacher says, "Whoever did write [that paper] doesn't know the first thing about Kurt Vonnegut." The academics analyzing books and movies and art get so enthralled with their web of syllogisms that they can't be bothered to pay attention to what it is they're actually talking about. Kudos to you, Mr Herzog.

[@dwaynesbadchemicals]

The one and a half claps in the middle is very Herzog.

[@feralmode]

the audience were simultaneously in awe of and terrified at the assault on their orthodoxy.

[@Patowtow]

​@@feralmode😂😂👏🏼

[@ledbowman]

he didn't have to end her like that 😭

[@ronaldbell7429]

He kind of did though.

[@8523wsxc]

So true. If i hear the word "character arc" again I will puke.

[@makoshark69x96]

ME TOO ! BUT THE STUDIO EXECS WHO WANT THAT.... THEY HAVE ZERO ABILITY TO CREATE OR PICK HIT SHOWS & HIT MOVIES ! THAT'S WHY 80 PERCENT OF WHAT THEY GREEN LIGHT BOMBS !

[@mrclarky]

The film schools ge refers to are a product of an industry. The same applies with anything that is formulated out of a profit driven industry, regardless of the discipline.

[@makoshark69x96]

THAT'S WHY SO MANY SCREENPLAYS SUCK ! AND IT'S THE REASON WHY MOST MOVIES SUCK.... AND THE EXECUTIVES ARE SO LACKING IN ACTUAL TALENT THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN PICK OR CREATE HIT MOVIES OR TV SHOWS ! THEY ONLY CREATE HITS BY LUCK ! THAT'S WHY THEY KEEP GETTING FIRED... THEY HAVE NO REAL TALENT !

[@sskiba_paradiso]

creative people need to eat, too.

[@MintyFreshTurds]

That definitely sounds like that should be delegated to the actors to deal with.

[@willcwhite]

anyone recognize where Werner's jacket is from? I want one!

[@adavis7668]

Kmart

[@Kurthoolio]

That's a typical German "Trachten Janker" or "Loden Janker", possibly by Lodenfrey.

[@Thr3-Words]

Those are very common in the southern part of the German speaking world

[@dmblum1]

She did sound like she was spouting gibberish. No wonder Werner was triggered; good for him.

[@makoshark69x96]

IT WAS TOTAL GIBBERISH... AND WERNER WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ! THAT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT CRAP IS A BUNCH OF NONSENSE ! JUST MAKE GOOD MOVIES !

[@RubenSilva-tk4yb]

She didn't explain her point well, but it does apply thematically as opposed strictly to "character arc". What she is saying is that in Nosferatu the "evil" or "true villain" isn't some creepy vampire, but living a dull life without hope, dreams, etc. (futility). She ties that theme to the character of Johnathan Harker, suggesting that his character arc is realizing that fact. Agree that it doesn't necessarily relate to character arc. If anything, Harker becoming a vampire at the end of Herzog's Nosferatu demonstrates the opposite of her point. Believing that "a life not lived" is a fate worse than death sounds like the rationalization of someone who has become a monster.

[@seancollett6]

He's right. Getting caught up in analyzing characters creates busy work to fill class time because many professors can't think of anything else to do. It is also a way to seem more deep and intelligent.

[@Patowtow]

This completely applies to acting as well. There's an obsession with script analysis, as if that directly correlated to a better performance. I think it's because it gives us the illusion of doing important, difficult work. But at the end of the day, analysing and performing are two completely different things-a bad actor can spend his entire life studying a character and will still give a mediocre performance.

[@LukasHe95]

Is the whole conversation available to watch somewhere? Would love to see it

[@CaesarDarias]

Desi Arnaz was sometimes told he couldn’t do something merely because it had not been previously done. “So what,” was his response, according to some staff who worked with him. There’s too much rigid thinking in too many professions. Invention, innovation, creativity and originality requires independence from random and meaningless rules, parameters and structures.

[@MateoM.CATACORA]

If I were to add something to this discussion, I'll give here my point of view. I got interested in screenwriting at 14 (I'm nearly 21 now), and I never knew anything about writing stories, nor how to get ideas. Learning film and screenwriting theory on KZbin and internet have helped me fins my path in life and made me want to pursue this in college. But now, I get ideas, and I brainstorm, but I'm in college in order to learn the technique. So, film school is necessary, and I find it necessary to learn more about filmmaking. - Mateo, from France

[@barakm666]

i love this man!

[@aguynamedscott11]

I’ve always thought that it was kind of funny that the New York Film School is in Burbank.

[@jeffgreiner4007]

and the award for Best Answer goes to...

[@greyeyed123]

But I want to pretend I have talent through the easiest means possible, and fool everyone into thinking I'm creative and important. What's the fastest, easiest, and cheapest way to do that while not caring about anything but the recognition I will get when I finish my screenplay next week?

[@joetanaka6446]

Yeah Herzog !!

[@electricwizard3000]

I can't speak for Herzog, but I'm certain he means graduate and masters film theory studies people. Undergrad studies in film is largely technical training.

[@elichilton7031]

It's complicated. While I agree that in the pure creation of something that working on pure instinct is an incredible insight, there is also the idea that one can create something a million different ways including screenplays, and there is value to that. That's the reason Herzog's films are unique to say Fassbinder, or Kurosawa. To each their own I say. That's like saying "I don't like notes. Notes are terrible, they dampen the creative process, who else here hates notes. I hate jotting. Scribbling. I just write." On one hand some writers love notes, there's notes and scribbles everywhere on everything, on the other hand there's the writer with a computer, or typewriter on the table and nothing else, nary a ball of scrunched paper to be seen.

[@JonZiegler6]

Yes, I think what's he's saying is that Hollywood have a formula, instead of just trying to make a film (which tells a story). A lot of the blockbuster Hollywood stuff very much seems to me as if they first decide what awesome things should happen then when they happen, then what the character arch/theme of the film, and don't actually consider the story.

[@losttango]

​@@JonZiegler6 Well, the fo consider the story, it's just that it's the same story every time, with different context. Music bio-pics are perhaps the worst offenders - see the Weird Al Yankovich film for a thorough skewering of that genre...

[@SavageMontreal]

I wouldn't call it a danger for screenwriting, it's just a different kind of storytelling than he subscribes to, and one that directors such as Christopher Nolan utilize to great effect. Although it is a danger to apply this analysis to stories that don't conform to those standards, and it's incredibly pretentious when you're doing it to someone who actually made the film. A lot of these "academics" can't wait to tell director's their own personal interpretation of some random scene, usually with embarrassing results.

[@ElectricLabel]

Nolan is the epitome of a dreadful filmmaker for me. Interstellar is a stunning example of bad screenwriting. I find him unbearable.

[@buda3d2007]

@@ElectricLabel It stole the beats and style from 2001 a space odysee and you are right the screen writing was sloppy.

[@robotnik44]

@@ElectricLabel I used to strongly dislike Nolan, but his past two films have made me think differently. However I do still feel that his weakest characteristic by far is his adherence to the "structure" doctrine that Herzog is criticizing here. I like Interstellar too and always have, but I like it for its messiness, not its polish. I feel it could have been better if it had ditched the pretense of realism and put all of its chips in on the emotion at the core of it. Probably Hans Zimmer's best score too besides Chicken Run. I'm still not a fan of him overall, he was by far the worst part about Blade Runner 2049.

[@marquesmcpeck746]

Christopher Nolan has written one good movie and it came out 3 days ago

[@menachtv6522]

Chris Nolan made just 1 masterpiece and it was released in 2023

[@xLordOfNothingx]

Absolute gibberish from the lady

[@alexalex13131]

i figure media studies are mainly to meet people like yourself with similar interests. In other words party time.

[@pupdiogenes2548]

This is good advice if you are Werner Herzog, or Quentin Tarantino, or David Lynch, or Lars Van Trier, or Terry Gilliam. But what if you aren't?

[@makoshark69x96]

IF YOU FOLLOW THE HOLLYWOOD FORMULA.... YOU WILL PUT OUT FORMULAIC CRAP & YOUR MOVIES & TV SHOWS WILL SUCK !

[@ElectricLabel]

Then get some self-belief or give up and work in Walmart.

[@thegoodgeneral]

@@ElectricLabelwhere do you work?

[@roarbertbearatheon8565]

There are more than enough hacks to make the Paul Blart slop for netflix I don’t think there will ever be a shortage of hacks they always find a way to bottomfeed to survive shooting commercials and pornos. It’s the Terry Gilliams of the world you want to be talking to if you were Herzog

[@thegoodgeneral]

@@roarbertbearatheon8565 as though the spectrum is only made up of uncompromising auteurs and untalented Netflix hacks. There are talented and sensitive directors out there that aren’t aggressive in their opinions.

[@TheEliasNoel]

Couldn’t disagree more. The man is very talented but his methods are most definitely not something most people can replicate.

[@toydixon6927]

Truth

[@dowz1969]

He did and does

[@sethuraman_g5260]

Legend says it- what more do u want...these jobless authors, analysts, critics,.. spin theories to earn their livelihood..

[@3lirajab]

Art is meant to be discussed, doesn't matter how wild the spin is.

[@mourningdovefilms]

Bravo!

[@TubenIt83]

Wow.

[@romancandlestarspider1135]

Well, isn't Werner a documentarian by and large, at least in terms of his chief accolades? I love docu, I love expressionism, I love films with significant character depth -- maybe Werner is right that the rote Hollywood 3 act formula is a bit boring / overdone, but I'm not sure I'm ready to take the leap with him into celebrating flat characters -- in fact, I don't really even see the connect between his first statement and his second one. I feel like he had me, then he tried to drag me along with him into the fallacy of the non-sequitur. Boogie Nights was a masterful film, and therefore, rub my feet for one hour. (okay, dude, slow your roll)

[@losttango]

No, his most celebrated works are his fictions, particularly Aguirre, Kaspar Hauser and Fitzcarraldo. Outsiders and obsessives. Of course in real life there's not much in the way of "character development", at least not in the timespan of the average movie. People generally change over a lifetime, not a few days or weeks.

[@JCT1926]

When you're as talented as Werner Herzog, maybe everything just comes naturally. You hardly need a theory or much of anything conscious when you are on his level. That's not necessarily how other lesser artists learn, though.

[@BalimSwogat]

He's not against theory, he's clearly arguing against formulaic inauthentic filmmaking

[@cosimocub]

lesser artists should go do something else

[@Mb_Drei]

@@BalimSwogat If that were the case then he could've worded it slightly fucking better. And I can assure you that his English isn't the problem.

[@dingdongrocket]

Herzog is the modern embodiment of "German Expressionism" but not all film is expressive. Film schools have to teach some structure - basically - step 1 is to learn the rules, step 2, break the rules!! Love the guy but he is basically a free range chicken on a big farm. He speaks of his films as if they are perfect (which no film is) yes, anyone with a paint brush can express themselves but a true artist is obviously talented but must be mentored, trained, experienced and (I'll let you finish the thought........................................) on a side note of all the things I wish to do in life none of them involve watching an entire Herzog film - small doses is enough for me. with love Matt von Braukich

[@makoshark69x96]

THEY SAY MORE THAN 90 PERCENT OF SCREENPLAYS SUCK ! MOST OF THESE PEOPLE CAME THROUGH FILM SCHOOL OR SOME WRITING PROGRAM ! THEY ALL WRITE THE SAME KIND OF UNREADABLE NONSENSE THEY LEARNED IN FILM SCHOOL !

[@vaahtobileet]

@@makoshark69x96 You don't have to write everything in all caps.

[@iamthekingof1omillionsunsets]

@@vaahtobileet YES YOU DO ... FOOL THAT YOU ARE

[@losttango]

If you"be not managed to sit through an entire Herzog film I suspect your opinion's not worth very much.

[@makoshark69x96]

@@vaahtobileet YOUR BRAIN IS SO SMALL, THAT ALL YOU CAN FOCUS ON IS THE ALL CAPS I USE ? WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THAT MAKE ? I DO THINGS MY WAY.... YOU FOLLOW EVERYBODY ELSE IF YOU WANT TO !

[@gmar7836]

I’m taking an online college course in filmmaking, I will not mention the name of the school which is very well-known but it’s truly frustrating and everything is very detailed or requires detail to the point of testing my patience. In truth, there’s so much you have to know in film making. I don’t even want to think about editing software and challenging that mountain as it’s quite technical. I appreciate and respect Werner’s Point of you here but unfortunately, if you want to be taken seriously in the industry as a filmmaker, you have to go to the schools and get the degree and learn all of it.

[@ElectricLabel]

That's complete nonsense, I'm afraid. You should never ever let an "industry" dictate how you exercise your own creativity. You tell them how it is, not vice versa, otherwise you'll only ever be a human pinball. Film schools, especially in the US, don't know shit from clay. If you think they matter you'll never find your own voice, you'll never develop your own philosophy, you'll never have a unique selling point, and they'll never have a reason to hire you.

[@FredBloggsTheThird]

Save your money, use any contacts and inspired friends you have that can help and go start making things.

[@viviandarkbloom8847]

@@ElectricLabel and, most of all, you'll never find enough time to travel on foot and read, read, read, read, read, read, read.

[@distortedfeatures]

​@@ElectricLabel most of the talented people I've met in the industry here in NZ never went to film school - and they went on to have fantastic careers in the industry with their own unique styles and voices. I still think to this day that film school does not help filmmakers to develop their creativity at all. They teach you how to make films like other filmmakers and test you on how well you can imitate.

[@ingvarhallstrom2306]

Film schools on an academic level didn't exist before the 1960's. Before that, you simply began your career by making movies by yourself, learning from the ground up like Spielberg or Kubrick. Or you went along somebody as an assistant learning the craft by watching other people doing it. Even today only about a third of all filmmakers have gone to film school, the other are split quite evenly between autididakts and assistant directors.

[@rumination2399]

Meh. I’m sure he has a good point under the emotion but he sounds like a grumpy old man reacting and struggling to remember the actual argument

[@of1300]

What he basically describes is amateur filmmaking.

[@thingsbym3]

ok lol but he makes documentaries