Werner Herzog on Cancel Culture & Historical Dogmatism

[@carlosrincon1551]

Not surprising that he’d find cancel culture to be “absurd”… because it is.

[@FrankJMarr]

Would be very interesting to see Noam Chomsky speak with Werner Herzog.

[@soumyadipdey426]

Oh boy!

[@stefank7144]

Never knew much about him until i seen reacher, he was great in it, he is intellectual, wise man, i seen the short where he talk about kinski and his meltdown in the jungle, and the chocolate bar lol epic

[@10538overture]

The Past is WW2 ended in 1945. History is why WW2 ended in 1945.

[@ZagrosŞêxbizin]

They should make this man the next Sith Lord in coming Star Wars movies. I can already see him embracing the dark side and shooting lightning from the tip of his fingers!

[@ZagrosŞêxbizin]

@@hugofranca8568 really? Is he playing a Sith Lord?

[@claudiaxander]

@@ZagrosŞêxbizin No, he's the voice of an experimental A.I. controlled death Star that became self aware just before being destroyed by Luke: "Oh! ...Nooooooooo! " Boooooom!

[@ZagrosŞêxbizin]

@@claudiaxander Ooo good one ahahah !

[@mrmustard4478]

He's a fantastic villain in The Mandalorian. Go watch, if only for him!

[@michaelbarrett18]

He is a highly respected director. Nothing about him resembles 'The Emperor' other than his accent. I think you should think before you speak, think again and then stfu.

[@ouimetco]

Werner Herzog is awesome. Love his work. Grizzly man was excellent.

[@FngrsRpicks2]

Happy People and Cave of forgotten dreams

[@bobby37038]

Nowadays people think that humankind is like a social media algorithm, everything is for tomorrow, but brains does'nt work like that, people are not machines. Education, patience, empathy and persistence are the best weapons to educate people, not bullying them when they wrong, or when people think it's wrong, thats two different things. I became vegan in 2020, having eating meat, cheese and drinking lots of milk my whole life, I evolve and it's good, but i can't judge everyone else who aren't vegan! I do my part on educating, showing alternatives to meat, etc and I ain't naive too, some people are willing to die before changing opinion, reason dont do good with all of us, sadly

[@raggedblossom508]

The inquisitions and slave ownership have not gone in our time. It's just done differently.

[@Jan96106]

I agree that we have to accept our history. For that reason, it needs to be accurately taught in schools (which has not happened in the past). And using Lincoln as an example is an extreme and unfair analogy. Is there an Adolf Hitler High School (or whatever that level is called) in Germany? Would that be okay to call a school that? Or a Nazi Schule? Is that revisionist German history not to celebrate that organization or those figures? In Florida they now have to teach the benefits of being a slave. (This, by the way, has been taught in school the past. Children are taught some slaves had their own cabins to take care of and the owner sometimes gave them a picnic. They are told Texas brought slaves in the "help with the chores.") In school in Germany, do they teach students about the benefits of being in a concentration camp or of being exterminated? Get real. Also, he says how we overcame. Have we? Really? Isn't this whole recent right-wing trend to exclude anything other than a sanitized version of white, Anglo history in American history class, leaving out all the contributions (and discrimination) of non-European ethnic groups and GLBQT history proof that some in the United States are trying to undo any progress that has been made? This discussion is nonsense.

[@822nivla]

Surely this is just sound logic for thinking people. Trouble is; the way some people think!

[@Fildoggy]

Sure, I don't know anyone who would be for renaming a school named after Lincoln. The people making these decisions are a small minority that think it will get them slightly more votes or company profits. The majority of cancel culture is things like people wanting to tear down Confederate statues or get racists to lose their jobs, which is much more justified imo

[@Fildoggy]

What I mean is most people who support cancel culture would agree

[@teodordl]

He is right about the vices of history revisionism, but somewhat incognizant of the forces of social change that have brought humanity towards where it is now. Witch burnings and slavery obviously didn't just disappear into the void as people gradually lost interest; there were literal wars fought over these matters. Had the north states not "cancelled" the south states by multiple means, slavery might still have been rampant (in fact it is, but in other forms). But as I'm sure the reader of this comment has noticed, the term "cancelling" seems misplaced and odd in this context. It is however such a murky term that any definition would have to encompass actual warfare. The term "cancel culture" lacks clarity to about the same degree as the term "woke" and is thus unusable for proper, thoughtful analysis of our state of being and assessment of what we need to do. The CC term is unclear and muddy because it can refer to history revisionism, but also to internet bullying, or to boycotting, or to strikes, to speaking up against harassment, to harassment itself - the list goes on. When we use the term, what are we referring to? More specifically, what is Herzog referring to here? He mentions revising history on high horseback through the lens of our time, and he mentions high schools revising their names. Those two are not the the same. The former is about truthful descriptive assessment of the past and acknowledging the plasticity of ethics, the latter is about how high schools decide how to represent their current and future values through symbols. This is partly how social change occurs in practice. Is glossing over the fact that Lincoln treated the first nations poorly history revisionism? Absolutely not. What here is history revisionism, then? It's this: refusing to acknowledge his poor treatment of first nations so as to preserve his well deserved positive image in other areas. I think it's completely appropriate for a high school to choose to symbolize their inclusion of all alumni, and their opposition to discrimination, by choosing a figurehead that actually represents these values. Of course Lincoln's achievements in other areas should be applauded, but it's at least debatable whether he should be cemented as an undeniable symbol of equality for all.

[@ovariantrolley2327]

This is totally wrong. The north cancelling the south didnt end slavery. Almost every other nation had banned it already and it would have been banned in thr south eventually too

[@Paraselene_Tao]

@@ovariantrolley2327 Excuse me, but do you have a magic crystal ball or something?

[@OfficialTomsSkujinsFanClub]

well said

[@dewiz9596]

Good ammo for my next argument

[@gomo88]

hahahahaha

[@NotMyGumDropButtons.444]

GET TO THE CHOPPAH

[@theodorearaujo971]

Werner is wrong about the Constitution.

[@aecbandit]

Disappointing to see such a lack of nuance in this conversation. Memorials, names of buildings, statues - vanishingly few of these things are historical in nature. They are, and have always been, idolatry. What they are calling for in this conversation is hagiography, not history. Very few people are even aware of the atrocities committed against Native peoples during Lincoln's presidency. The human fact of their suffering has always been the same, whether or not the dominant culture living at the time recognized it. It's possible to have conversations on these difficult topics - it's possible to judge these figures on the merits of their accomplishments and tragedies - and it's possible to tear down statues of shitty fucking people - without erasing history. In reality, the parading of their names in our culture has served only to diminish the past.

[@ouimetco]

Now that my friends is a reasonable, valid and true argument.

[@jude999]

That too is history. It tells a story and is a testament to the culture of the time. Who are you to be the Arbiter of what should be destroyed and what should not be destroyed?

[@Lessk69]

I don't condone what happened to the natives of North America, however, people look at this situation with the wrong view point. "We stole their land and mistreated them, etc." People don't take into consideration that they were conquered. And conquered lands are violent. Nearly every nation standing today is on conquered land at some point. But everyone likes to point fingers at North America because it was one of the more recent events in history. It was still conquering a territory.

[@squash8226]

@@Lessk69 Difference is the horrific results of the conquest of Native Americans is still in effect today. Its not something in the far off past like the Roman conquest of Gallia or the Macedonians invading Egypt, its something that still effects Native Americans today. 1 in 4 Native Americans live in poverty, mostly in reservations that were originally created as concentration camps. Mass sterilization of Native American women only ended in the 1970s, and might I add Native American women often go missing Most actual attempts to regain land through treaties or court battles have been completely nullified in the legal system. Most they got is Casinos and everyone knows that only benefits a small amount of the indigenous population.

[@Icecreamforcrowtoo]

The lack of nuance is not coming from people like Herzog. The natives committed unspeakable atrocities against EACH OTHER long before Europeans ever showed up in North America in any significant way. Should we let that define their legacy as much as we insist on the moral infractions of Europeans defining their legacy? They said it themselves in this video. Once you go down this road, if you want to actually be consistent (and don't just have an agenda), there is no end to it. The Mongols do not apologize for Genghis Khan much less demonize him. I think the people who are generally arguing for complexity and nuance are NOT the people who are insisting on tearing down monuments or renaming buildings while putting most of the past into a negative vacuum. Those people are reductionists that push aside any nuance.

[@annahardina1831]

They were midwives not Witches.. Guilty of helping women in the villages give birth. .. Drs did not like this.. so I've read!!

[@khamzatchimaev1009]

What a great men came here just listen to him

[@Brandon12983]

Me too

[@machupicchu3941]

This old German has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. Say what’s in your heart he’s not coward.

[@Icecreamforcrowtoo]

We apparently have a 'moral' obligation as postmodern cretins, who enjoy an easy life of 21st century 24/7 'on demand' services built on the backs of our antecedents, to constantly morally preen about our 'enlightened' superiority over those antecedents. And then on top of that suggest men that actually did great, history-altering things in the past that should inspire others in one way or another (like traveling around the world in a boat centuries ago)...that THEY were actually inferior to us in our lazyboys and Cheeto dust-covered fingers for failing to predict ever-shifting moral norms and niceties and then WHAT exactly those norms and niceties would come to be in 2023. It's so embarrassing and it's almost enough to make someone dwell on the consequences of something like mass literacy. (Not that mass literacy is a bad thing. But it makes people more smug towards the past than they have any right to be.) You simply cannot appreciate history in any profound sense with all the shallow moralizing of the past that is being done by the 'cancel culture' crowd.

[@claudiaxander]

Who should we focus on from recorded history, when raising our young, so as to make a better world? I'm truly fascinated with this question. I can only think of the Ionian enlightenment thinkers. As they birthed science, and nothing has done more for humanity.

[@Scorchy666]

At the same time, there's nothing wrong with disputing the fairytales we've been fed in our history books for well over a century. Most of American history as we were told is crap. Calling out Thomas Jefferson as one of the sleaziest characters in American history (alongside Trump) should be done.

[@claudiaxander]

@@Scorchy666 Here here! Indeed.

[@Icecreamforcrowtoo]

@@Scorchy666 "At the same time, there's nothing wrong with disputing the fairytales we've been fed in our history books for well over a century. Most of American history as we were told is crap. Calling out Thomas Jefferson as one of the sleaziest characters in American history (alongside Trump) should be done." You could do the same thing with MLK. The man was a 'holy' preacher who routinely banged prostitutes (perhaps with church monies, at that). He's on tape saying "I'm ****ing for God!" Pretty sleazy. So, in other words....a complete hypocrite who also plagiarized his doctoral thesis. It does not bother me that we generally ignore these facts about the man any more than it would bother me if we did not dwell on every misdeed you feel is so important with respect to Thomas Jefferson. No one here in this video that I see has any sort of issue with "disputing fairy tales." Talk about misdeeds all you want (though I'm sure you have your own sacred cow historical figures you probably do not want scrutinized negatively, yourself). But understand here you're changing the subject with respect to what the video was specifically addressing. The issue was specifically dealing with 'cancelling' people and people taking offense at the past in a way that is just absurd and small-minded. As Herzog mentioned, it's this condescending attitude towards history that is extremely off-putting and arrogant (not to mention moralistic). If you want to spend your time enumerating the misdeeds of Thomas Jefferson and others like him, you're free to do that, obviously. No one is stopping you. But you're at the same time likely to develop this myopic attitude towards history if you're not careful and self-aware.

[@davidlynch9049]

​@@Scorchy666 Sure, but it's wrong to villianize them.

[@googlepigs7027]

ITS TOTALLY ORWELLIAN !

[@jude999]

"Oh, absolutely, the Bible was full of slaves." Undermines much of Herzog's reasoning.

[@Icecreamforcrowtoo]

No, it doesn't.

[@charlesbarstow319]

Progress is a hell of a drug

[@vrfvfdcdvgtre2369]

"Sensibilities" such as "The Bible full of slaves". O Enlightened, have you ever read the New Testament? Philemon: "For perhaps for this he was separated for an hour, that you might receive him eternally;16 no longer as a slave, but beyond a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, and how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord." Sad.

[@COD-dr1ph]

Yeah I think he was referring to the Old testament which is indeed rife with slavery, and eye for an eye punishment . Most so-called American Christians are really drawing most of their thinking from the Old testament rather than the New testament, and so aren't really that Christian at all.' Turn the other cheek' vs. 'an eye for an eye'

[@miscaccount9438]

Old men missing the point yet again. Pointing out previous generations shortcomings and the immorality that wasn't considered immoral and the fact that many of these actions have disappeared is the reason to reflect onto our own actions and customs so that we may realize our own short comings. Just because slavery was a social norm at a certain period in time doesn't in any way mean it was ethical. Racism is still a part of American culture today, that doesn't make it acceptable. No person is perfect, we are all flawed; this is not an excuse to continue being flawed. No individual is deserving of such revere. No gods, no masters Edit: Not to mention that history itself tends to be propaganda in its own right. There have been pushes across the nation to make history classes more pro-US and "patriotic" (nationalist).

[@miscaccount9438]

@J B First off, never have I ever claimed to be perfect or 100% moral; that's a straw man argument. I literally said in my post, and I quote, "No person is prefect; we are all flawed", I am a person and a part of "we". Perhaps you should read the comment before trying to ignorantly insult people. Nothing about this has anything to do with me personally, nor does it have anything to do with these 2 men personally. I'm subscribed to this channel because of my appreciation of Dr. Krauss and his guests. That being said, just as I am not prefect, neither are they, hence, they're not always right. Knowing they're not prefect, I'm not necessarily going to believe or agree with everything they say. If this was one of his videos on physics, I sure as hell wouldn't be arguing against him. When did they suggest it was ethical? 2:50, Dr. Krauss, "But the idea of repaying for sins at the time of the past when they weren't sins is the worst view, it seems to me, of history." They're suggesting it was ethical because of the culture at the time. Burning witches at the stake was normal. Keeping slaves was normal. The Bible was full of slaves, because it was normal (all of these were examples they used in the video). Even today, the 13th amendment allows for people to be kept as slaves of the state. They are making excuses for unethical behavior. Slavery is wrong whether it was the year 2000 BCE, or 3000 CE. Their point appears to be that change comes, society does progress. My point is, if you're going to revere people for some acts, you must still hold them responsible for their lesser acts. Sure, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, but that didn't even apply to the union states. As I mentioned before, slavery is still allowed under the 13th amendment. So, not only did he not actually end slavery, but he did mistreat the American Indians as well (see also: Teddy Roosevelt). In many cases, people only "achieve" things by harming others. Not only within government, but business as well. Columbus "discovered" America, a continent already inhabited, then he and his people proceeded to commit genocide against the natives. This was considered ethical at the time; its not. Genocide is never ethical. Committing genocide should easily overrule sailing across an ocean. Hitler did do good things for Germany, he brought them out of a massive depression. Does that supercede his acts of genocide? I think not. Elon Musk was born into a rich family that made their fortune off of blood emeralds. Now he's talking credit for other people's work and forced numerous people to work through a pandemic so that he could enrich himself by stealing the profit of their labor. Thomas Jefferson (like many of the founding fathers) not only had slaves, but routinely raped them. The problem with idolizing people is that you ignore their faults, they're raised above and beyond who they really were. As no human is perfect, no human deserves to be on a pedestal. Just because every person is flawed, doesn't mean these flaws are excusable. If flaws are excused, then we'll never make any progress I don't have time to get into the framing of history through propaganda, this is already massively long *No gods, no masters*

[@ouimetco]

“History is written by the winners”. Still really like herzog and believe he has a point, and that you have some valid, albeit strawman, counter points. Cheers

[@miscaccount9438]

@@ouimetco I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't like these two, they're very prominent in their perspective fields for a reason. As I said, I wouldn't be subscribed if I didn't enjoy the content. The saying "history is written by the winners" only confirms what I was saying earlier about history as its typically taught as being propaganda. If history is written by the winners, you're only getting half the story. To have a proper understanding of history one must be able to view things from all sides, not just one. I'd be interesting in knowing what my supposed straw man arguments are, as I don't want to be making them, but I'm also tempted to think it could be a misunderstanding of what I meant.

[@ouimetco]

@@miscaccount9438 i believe it was in your original post not in your edited version. Cannot recall what the example was exactly now…was it nazis or hitler???

[@miscaccount9438]

@Fabricio Costa they said that during the times the aforementioned acts took place, they were not considered sins; which is to say they were considered ethical. Society took part in these acts because they felt they were doing good; they considered these acts ethical. Now, we could say that sin and ethics aren't one in the same, and that's something Dr Krauss may possibly agree to as well (not for me to say). However, they do seem to be using them interchangeably here. I'm not changing what they're saying to "follow my agenda" 🙄 but rather following their viewpoint through to its conclusion. Their attitude on the subject is one of an apologist likely due to their affection for "history".

[@End-Result]

Who knew that Werner Herzog wasn’t very wise after all. Nothing he is saying here is groundbreaking, just common sense.

[@davidlynch9049]

If it was common sense, you wouldn't have cancel culture.

[@frankjohnson123]

So your point is he's not a genius based on the fact that he's speaking the truth? What?

[@claudiaxander]

No one is banning, access to, or teaching of, information regarding the realities of past events or the myriad of complicated characters that shaped our history...BUT! Blindly celebrating or deifying an individual in the form of a statue or prestigious naming, where they are glorified without context, is the antithesis of education. No one is forgetting anything... Au contraire!

[@kipuchino]

@@user80014 ROFL. Rekt.

[@Stewiehleba]

@Trevor Chase but many of the supposed heroes of the past were too extreme even in their own time. Winston Churchill for example.

[@claudiaxander]

@Trevor Chase we are discussing historical cases yes! No one is deleting history, quite the contrary, we are fully illuminating history in all it's messy reality. Hero worship is for fans of comic books, not grown ups.

[@algoplantechnologies8231]

@@Stewiehleba Compared to what? - that's the whole point of Werner's argument. I suggest you listen to it one more time.

[@algoplantechnologies8231]

@@claudiaxander Are we? I am not convinced. Neither I did in the 70's nor did my children in 00's learn anything about the socialists atrocities of the 20th century. What we did spend an enormous amount of time on, however, was the war in Vietnam, and Hitler's persecution of the Jews. Why not the millions that were murdered in an equally disgusting manner in China, the Sovjet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam etc.??? The problem is, that your narrative flies in the face if reality. The educational institutions, and the teachers - which by and large all of them in the western democracies are extremely left leaning - have tried very very hard to suppress these events.