What About Free Will? | Apologia Radio Highlight

[@ApologiaStudios]

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[@tx2jbh81]

I’ve tried to escape from the FACT of the sovereignty of God but can’t logically. It’s so inescapably BEAUTIFUL!! 🙌🏼 He is God and I am the creature. ❤

[@friendlyfire7509]

He is worthy of all praise

[@exlx5452]

Zach referencing God restraining the evil in Rueben's heart is really important context for understanding the hardening of Pharaoh's. Just as the brother would have done worse if God hadn't restrained, by God merely not restraining Pharaoh he was free to follow greater paths of evil. As Sproul said (badly paraphrased), 'God didn't have to create fresh evil in Pharaoh's heart' and we see a good example of the reverse of this with the brothers. Thank you Zach and Pastor Jeff for your encouragement and teaching

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Only God is absolute. But pharaoh did what he did because of his heart

[@THEREALDATALORD]

Praise God for his deep sovereignty over all things.

[@heathcoat67]

I so appreciate this ministry

[@heidyrilloraza371]

Jeff said it so well , oh the awesome God we have ！　hallelujah

[@StillSawyerPhotography]

This is a great clip. If you want to be secure in your faith you need to dive deep into the topics you least understand. The Bible is filled with so much history so that we could see clearly the glory of God and how good he truly is ✝️

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

Anyone that reads the Book of Jonah has to accept the fact that God caused Jonah to go to Nineveth. Jonah believed in free will and decided to do the opposite of what God wanted him to do.

[@Jesus_Romans_8_1]

I always tell our youth on Wednesday night that we have no idea how far our sin will take us. Look at Joseph’s brother where pride and jealousy almost took them to the point of murder. Repent of all sin excluding the “respectable sins” because we never know where they will lead

[@mjcrawf]

Spoke to you in the airport yesterday. Appreciate your ministry! Blessings.

[@molitorsk]

Another expositional teaching of the Word. Thank you Jeff

[@Postmillhighlights]

For all the ‘what about free will?’ Comments: What if I told you our Lord actually said we were slaves to sin until He sets us free? John 8:34-36 [34] Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. [35] The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. [36] So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

[@Descriptor_]

Stunning when people are totally good with it being God’s good will and plan for Jesus to die at the hands of sinners for our salvation but freak out at the thought of evil being done towards sinful fallen people at the hands of other fallen sinful people and He be fully sovereign over it. If the greatest act of evil ever committed was according to the plan and foreknowledge of God then so is every other lesser act to follow (or precede.) God is that good and that powerful.

[@OnlyJalenPhd]

This is a phenomenal point! I often read the comments, but I rarely find ones that get me to pause and think like this one.

[@kathyhart2309]

Looking forward!❤

[@amandacase9826]

There’s a difference between can’t and won’t

[@HeidiRobinson-gs6ct]

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Bible prophecies are continuing to be fulfilled. Life and love are miracles from God each day.

[@thelordsdayministry2026]

Duet 30:19 "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life" We don't have free will to choose?

[@Pugilist928]

Did you chose the day you were born? How can you then chose when you were born again? Its a sovereign act of Gods grace

[@thelordsdayministry2026]

@@Pugilist928 For one being born again is receiving the Holy Ghost when accepting Christ as your Savior. If God predestines one thing then everything is predestined? Your theology is horrendous.

[@WesW3187]

The thing is, when Pharaoh hardened his heart, at no point was he thinking “I don’t want to do this but something or someone, from outside of my will is changing my mind”. He would say, as everybody says, no this is my decision. I don’t believe in your fairytales. God leaves people in their natural state. He changes their minds within the confines of their natural state, but they will never believe anything or anyone changed their mind, except when they are converted. Then they look back over their lives and see the miracles that led to their conversion.

[@CBALLEN]

The bad news is, we are all sinners, the good news is, Jesus saved all of His people at the cross.

[@JoseRamos-rj9dd]

Reminds me of Jesus parable of the persistent widow . King does let’s say “good” which is good for her but not done out of fear of and to honor God but just to be left alone I think Jeff has a good point there when he talks about hardening of Pharaoh . He could’ve prob let them go to save his own skin , not yo honor God yet YHWH hardens him making him more stubborn and so God displays his power and accomplishes his purpose Psalm 103 says : His sovereignty rules over all

[@NeededGR13F]

Not to mention that he could have just teleported his people out of Egypt like he did with Philip if that was really the main goal.

[@markwilliams3085]

This is a really good video, but one point i was thinking about while listening to it is how God moved the Egyptians to hate the children of Israel. Psalm 105:25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

[@brentanton7466]

I don't think that its He can't intervene but He chooses not to intervene because He gave free will. Now could God have predestined some things and left alone other things to happen as they may?

[@danib712]

If we have free will why do people love saying “oh God brought this person in my life” ???? So on and so on. Whenever something good happens they said god did it or even if something bad happens they will use god either “why would god do this to me” or “god didn’t want this in my life anymore” so I wonder when Jeff talks about this topic people say he’s preaching a false gospel????

[@The300ZXGuru]

dude please explain to me the big picture why. why did God go about this plan? I would have loved being a fly on the wall when the trinity God has hatching this plan;

[@mdcopenhaver]

Not attacking Calvinism, just legitimately in good faith trying to understand your idea of free will, and how I my thinking may be wrong. If God controls everything we think say and do, then how is it that He doesn’t cause us to sin? I understand we sin cause that’s our nature and we want to sin. But if He made us this way and preordained everything that happens; it seems to me He makes us sin and we’re puppets on strings. Can you explain where I’m wrong?

[@PTTHOR]

God doesn't control everything we "think, say and do" He is all knowing, not all controlling

[@kellygipson8354]

In the exact same way that Shakespeare forced Juliet to love Romeo, and drink poison...... You are imagining a scenario in which man is neutral and then is added either good or evil desires. But this is not the case. Adam tied us to damnation, after which no obligation exists to save any of his children. As to the "God causes us to sin" accusations, God causes, as a first cause, all things. But that does not remove your desires, any more than it removes Juliet's desires. It does not "cause" you to sin anymore than Shakespeare "caused" Romeo to die. Shakespeare is not a murderer just because he decreed the actions of a murderer. With that said there are only 3 possibilities here. Either everyone goes to heave, everyone goes to hell, or some to each. Which one of those reveals both justice and mercy?

[@MikeFree22]

I was raised with the Arminian view of scripture until I was truly regenerated at the appointed time at age 33. How anyone who is truly born again can read Gods Word and come out the other side not believing predestination is biblical is just ludicrous to me. Romans 9 alone is unavoidable for the Arminian…unless they highlight their Bible with a sharpie…as it seems so many do. Gods Word is abundantly clear on the issue…to suggest it isn’t is just another false man centered, I can do it better, pagan, anti -Christ, hard hearted worldview. I’m still hyper zealous about it no doubt haha.

[@dustinnyblom7835]

Was Jesus a puppet? Was his whole life not predestined and predetermined?

[@ogloc6308]

@@kellygipson8354The major flaw in your analogy is that Romeo and Juliet aren’t real. If Juliet was real and Shakespeare forced her to drink poison then he would be a murderer.

[@barefootkid592.0]

All I know is I have never heard the gospel taught by anyone as good and sound as John MacArthur..And no I dont worship MacArthur, I am drawn to the way he teaches, he is sound!! And let me add JOHN MACARTHUR DOES NOT TEACH A WORKS BASED SALVATION!! He teaches that we are saved through faith by grace, that our love for Christ follows good works, but that it is the blood of Jesus and repentance that we are saved!!!!

[@reformedcatholic457]

Not exactly true, he mixes Law and Gospel, makes Gospel out to be a work.

[@barefootkid592.0]

@@reformedcatholic457 He absolutely does NOT!!! Believe in a works salvation! I have watched several where he talks about we are saved by faith through grace and that our love for Christ follows good works, that we can not be saved by works but by the blood of Jesus and repenting! I wish you people would stop lying about this!!

[@tb2324]

@@reformedcatholic457no he doesn’t. Give proof.

[@Romano_33]

I 100% agree! He's got a way of teaching that's points only to Christ and what HE'S done. Same reason why I like Jeff. Both are true shepherds of our Lord. God bless!

[@Romano_33]

​@@barefootkid592.0 Thank you!

[@markxivlxii1390]

Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make free choices that are not determined by prior conditions; a free will that is not determinist. We do not posess that type of free will. Only God has true free will.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

But does God actually have libertarian free will? I mean, God can only act according to His nature, right? That is, God does not have the "freedom" to sin, I think that we would agree there. So we see that even in God, the will is not free, but instead is a servant to His nature.

[@markxivlxii1390]

@@lawrencestanley8989 If the definition that I stated "ability to make free choices that are not determined by prior conditions" holds then yes, God's will is free. Ours is not.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

@@markxivlxii1390 I just wonder if it is an attempt to define something that doesn't exist in any capacity by any being. Is it your position that God's choices are not determined by His character and nature?

[@Eagle_Powers]

Interesting Joseph Smith fact for you Jeff which you probably already know. In the Joseph Smith Translation Joseph changed the Bible to say that the Pharaoh hardened his heart against God.

[@AdamsTaiwan]

Both are mentioned in the Bible. Ex. 8:32 Pharaoh hardened his heart. Ex. 9:12 The LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.

[@Eagle_Powers]

@@AdamsTaiwan Thanks! I did not realize that.

[@ajhall8214]

So many people with so many different denominations with different doctrines. I appreciate a lot of Calvinistic preachers teachings but I refuse to call myself after another man and never understood why people do?? I’m a follower of Christ I’m a bible believer. I think if people would really look into John Calvin’s doctrine we would be horrified lol. How can we worship God with out free will? If I have a wife that is only faithful to me because she has no other choice. where is is the love in that?

[@robmc120]

Is the triune God sovereign & omnipotent? Calvinism confirmed.......let God be God

[@MrStrongBro]

I believe there’s both predestination and free will. My question related to the last chapter mentioned, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, despite of every calamity God put on him. If God did that to Pharaoh, do you agree that he can also harden an atheist’s heart toward Himself? After all, according to Romans 8, we are predestined to be conformed into the image of Jesus.

[@aletheia8054]

An unregenerate heart is already a heart of Stone towards God.

[@MrStrongBro]

@@aletheia8054 I can agree. In Pharaoh’s case however, wasn’t he already opposed to the idea of freeing God’s people? Why did God have to harden his heart throughout all of the plagues that came his way?

[@aletheia8054]

@@MrStrongBro God hardened his heart towards pharaohs on best interest. His heart was already hard towards God.

[@aletheia8054]

@@MrStrongBro in the Bible, the heart is the place of understanding. God can harden your heart towards understanding this or understanding that.

[@erinnmurray5819]

Romans 8:28-33

[@aleksandrakurzawa4976]

Could you please share the videos with Polish subtitles? I would like to share the content with my friends, but most of them don't know English to understand what the videos are about.

[@sylvestreherrera6900]

Proverbs 16:33 Psalms 138:8 😁👍

[@JESUSsaves2345]

Not to mention the centurion that came to Jesus and asked him to heal his servant how he told Jesus that the centurion in his high position still didn't think he was worthy for Jesus to walk in his house that was free will and faith that marveled Jesus himself. I thought that was beautiful

[@silaaron76]

2 Peter 3:8-10 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[@oracleoftroy]

Amen! God won't lose a single one of his beloved in the fire he is storing up for the judgement of the scoffers.

[@Pastor_Chief]

I still don't understand the Pharaoh bit, because it also says before God hardened his heart that the pharaoh actually hardened his own heart. Not trying to debate, but Jeff didn't talk about that part and I am genuinely curious as to how Calvinist reconciles that detail

[@KlaustheViking]

It’s the question that isn’t clearly answer as to how God decrees “ALL things” even the bad ones and somehow man is still responsible for doing what man decreed them to do, while simultaneously preventing them from coming to salvation. I understand the message they’re trying to say is “God saves you, not yourself,” but I think they’re misunderstanding the free will perspective, which I believe fits scripture better with man being responsible for the sins he commits as well as his response to the Gospel. How can a Calvinist call it the Gospel, which means “good news,” when the unchosen never have a chance to begin with? They were made to be damned according to Calvinism.

[@oracleoftroy]

Is that true though? God said he would harden Pharoah well before Moses even went to him the first time way back in chapter 4. The thing to keep in mind as well is that Calvinists don't view it as man's free will vs God's free will, but that both ultimately go together even if they work at cross goals for the same choice. Gen 50: 20.

[@Pastor_Chief]

@@oracleoftroy is what true? The scripture says it in that chronological order? Unless you mean “is it true” that Pharaoh legitimately hardened his heart apart from God’s statement that he would harden it beforehand? Genuinely, couldn’t the Molinists say the same thing though? That God’s will and mankind’s limited free-will “go together”? I know my question presupposes a few things., but I asked it knowing that some 5-point Calvinists also believe in Middle Knowledge. I find myself somewhere in the middle and am trying to figure it out. All my Calvinist friends have varying explanations on what calvinism is and how it explains parts of scripture and its hard to figure out what the mainline Calvinist points actually are…if that makes sense? I’m personally reading through John Calvin’s Institutes and there’s a lot of Calvinists who disagree with some of his points and I am confused but it feels like the Arminian friends I have all line up on what they believe and teach, and same with my Molinist friends.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@Pastor_Chief _"is what true?"_ This bit: _"...it also says before God hardened his heart that the pharaoh actually hardened his own heart."_ The first person credited with hardening Pharoah's heart is God back in chapter 4, not pharaoh. _"Genuinely, couldn’t the Molinists say the same thing though? That God’s will and mankind’s limited free-will “go together”?"_ Not in the same way. They separate man's will and God's will even at the eternal level. In Reformed theology, when God is creating the universe, he is he is said to "ordain" a universe that suits his plans, by which the Reformed include all the planning, purposing, designing, etc that goes into every detail of the plan. God's knowledge of all possible universes comes from his natural knowledge and the universe he chooses to create comes solely from God. Everything about it originates solely from God and is established solely by God. For the Molinist, there is a third party to God, that of the potential humans living in potential universes. God knows the possible universes through "middle-knowledge" and the potential actions of potential humans in potential universes is independent from God. Some say that God can't create any universe that is within his power to create, he can only create the universes knowable through middle-knowledge. And so when God ordains a universe, it is the one he sees through middle-knowledge. Again, the free actions of these potential humans is independent and separate from God, observed through the window of middle-knowledge, not something directly known by God based solely on God's character and nature and purposes. So in Molinism, God's choices are limited by potential man's choices, and he ordains out of the available options, and then realized man does what God and potential man decided for them to do. I think that makes the universe far more fatalistic than even the worst strawman of Calvinism, but a Molinist might not see it that way. Some think realized man also has libertarian free will, which if realized means that God's knowledge of what man would do in this or that universe is wrong, as they did contrary to what God knows. I'm not sure, but I think this is a minority opinion, though I know Craig raised the possibility. So God is limited in his choice of universes by things outside of God, the knowledge he has of potential human action learned through middle-knowledge. He isn't unlimited in the way the Calvinist believes in terms of creating any universe fit for his purposes while still being able to establish human free will by what he ordains. In my view, Molinism makes potential man a co-creator of the universe and God dependent on something outside of himself, where scripture teaches there is none beside God and that God is the sole being who created all things. _"...but I asked it knowing that some 5-point Calvinists also believe in Middle Knowledge."_ Do they really? I would be surprised. What I see a lot is Molinists equating Middle Knowledge with counter-factual knowledge. Whenever Molinism is discussed, someone will try to point to this or that passage of God's counter-factual knowledge as scriptural proof for Molinism, but that begs the question. Reformed Theology absolutely affirms God's counter-factual knowledge without affirming Middle Knowledge at all. The Calvinist might be speaking of counter-factual knowledge, or confusing the terms, or not aware of the historic Reformed position. I'm not aware of any Calvinist who affirms Middle Knowledge as a genuine thing in Reformed Theology. _"All my Calvinist friends have varying explanations on what calvinism is and how it explains parts of scripture and its hard to figure out what the mainline Calvinist points actually are…if that makes sense?"_ I get it. And I think everyone has their own contrary definition. Not to mention some awful definitions used by people trying argue against it. One has to wade through a lot of uninformed takes, and frankly it can come from all sides. I always try to point people to the historic Reformed confessions, especially The Westminster Confession and the Three Forms of Unity, as an objective source for what Calvinists believe. One or the other of those form the statement of belief of most Reformed denominations (or the London Baptist Confession for Reformed Baptists, which is pretty much an edited Westminster Confession). They also help see a more full-bodied Reformed faith. Most people overly reduce "Calvinism" to just the five points, but something like the Westminster Confession touches on every aspect of the faith and how it all holds together, from the stuff everyone agrees on to the more controversial stuff. Of course, if you are just interested in the five points, the Canon of Dort (which is one of the three documents making up the Three Forms of Unity) is the document that officially lays out what they do and do not teach. One thing to keep in mind when reading Calvin is that none of Calvin's writings have any sort of special or official place in a "Calvinist" church. Calvin was just one Reformer teaching on these things, there were many others. People labeled the Reformer's teachings as "Calvinism", and now many get confused and think Calvin is somehow an unduly special figure in the theology. He isn't. His writings are important and studied in seminaries, but not as some doctrinal standard like the confessions are. Most "Calvinists" haven't read a word of Calvin. As for other reasons a Calvinist might disagree with Calvin, since you are reading the Institutes you'll know this: Calvin spends a lot of time developing his points, paragraph on paragraph and chapter on chapter. If you are trying to read a small portion of Calvin to them and they aren't familiar with the backdrop Calvin has developed to get to that point, they might think they disagree because of something they are reading into the wording that Calvin has already addressed and repudiated. It's hard to reduce Calvin to a bite sized quote that does justice to his theology. Again, that's why I think the historic confessions are better primary sources for laying out the theology, they are written to pack a lot of theology into more independent chunks.

[@hannahrachelxo2281]

I didn’t understand this,, I was hoping to learn about Calvinism. I haven’t read the Bible yet so I know nothing lol.

[@timothyvenable3336]

Lol yeah this wouldn’t be a good video to learn about Calvinism… I would start reading the Bible if you haven’t already, then form your own understanding based on what the Bible says

[@claykerr300]

How can I watch the full video?

[@Andre_V_S]

Hey Jeff, his team, or any Calvinist on the comment section. I have 2 questions. Let me concede that at least the heroes of the Bible (Abraham, Noah, Moses, David, the disciples, Paul, Job, etc) we're predestined to be followers and saved due to God's active involvement in their lives. I'm doing this for the sake of my first question. Is the Bible written for the heroes or for everyone? Are we supposed to identify with the heroes or the people which Jesus spoke to? My second question is if Jesus died the sins of everyone or for the sins of some of us? Thank you.

[@melissabrown3976]

The only hero in the Bible is Jesus. Everyone else mentioned are sinful men used by God to bring about His will & purpose. Jesus death on the cross was only for His people not everyone. If His death was for everyone, then all would be saved. If His sacrifice paid for all peoples sins, why would anyone go to hell?

[@Andre_V_S]

@@melissabrown3976 Hey, thanks for the response! Understood, I got it wrong. Only Jesus is the hero. When we read the bible, should we identify with anyone? When Jesus spoke or when Paul wrote his letters, should we take Jesus teachings and Pauls letters as they were meant for us? And about Jesus dying for his people. Is it his people those who believe that he's one person of the triumph God? That came down and lived a perfect life? Who then died in the cross for our sins and resurected on the third day? Or is it a selected amount of those people that not only believed, but also he predestined?

[@Postmillhighlights]

@@melissabrown3976I understand what you’re trying to say but it’s hard to hold that position if you read Hebrews 11, often called the hall of faith.

[@victorens]

Isaiah 10: 5-16 ♨

[@ThembaMaselane]

The way you present sovereignty you make God a puppet master and man automatons.Hear is a very old sensible idea, God by creating us with his image he gave us volition, ability to choose and since we do not have perfect knowledge we are inevitably susceptible to sin and grace is our Divinely gifted default position.

[@bboynewsboy991]

Unrelated topic, just something im thinking about a lot. What if you Enter the gate that is Christ, but then do things that would signal you never entered, and then start going round and round with whether you were ever saved, and conclude that you must not have been, and then are just confused about what entering the gate means anymore? Ive thought I believed many times, but the doubt keeps coming back, not necessarily about my salvation, but about everything, can trust the History, can we trust the disciples' claims about what jesus taught, but then, to even make any of that relevant we must believe in God.. but I don't see Him, I can't him, I've given up. I can't convince myself He exists. I'm going to search untill I'm Dead. And I if go to Hell, it'll be for what I've done and I will not complain. Does God want this belief, that sort of, is not quite certain, that's a faith that he's there even though he's not making you certain. Is it the same for Christ. Sometimes, some things Jesus says, I think must assuredly make Him God, the Christ, but then I just think, what if my believing that is just an illusion. The buddists believe their things, the Mormobs believe their things, Muslims.. Catholics.. I don't trust my own perception, because I look around at those who do, and they seem wrong from mine. Darkness is my only friend.

[@AdamsTaiwan]

I can only have certainty when starting with scripture, the living written Holy Spirit breathed word of God. He revealed it from the beginning. Budhism, Islam and all other religions had a beginning much later so no need to even consider them. According to Rom. 1:18-22 you do know that God exists, time to stop suppressing that truth. Were "like" children in a classroom standing at the board and writing the answer to 2+3. I write 2+3=5 because the answer was told to me and then I could see it. You look at all the other children each with their own answer and conclude that there cannot be 1 correct answer or that it is unknowable. The truth is that there is one correct answer and an infinite # of wrong answers. Coming to know the truth starts here: repent and believe the gospel. Trust Jesus the Christ and make this your first prayer: "God have mercy on me a sinner". Read the Bible and wait for His salvation to be worked in your heart.

[@bboynewsboy991]

@@AdamsTaiwan If I said, wouldn't it be more certain, more reliable, to base our belief in what our senses percieve than to base it on Ancient Historical claims, could you help me to see my error?

[@AdamsTaiwan]

​@@bboynewsboy991 if you said that about your personal preference of ice cream then, yes, because that is a personal thing you can choose. However, you don't get to decide who God is, we must start with what God has revealed. Think about it: God chose to reveal Himself thru the first 4,000 years of HIS-tory (even that word is about Him). Then He splits time by entering time and space in Jesus. He solves our biggest problem, sin, then completes His instruction book, the Bible, with instructions on how to live and with a view of how things will end. It is perfect, so why would anyone want to trust their faulty senses? He tells that our hearts are deceitful. Jer. 17:9. How could I trust what you said over what your neighbor says? Without it written in a book that has stood the test of time, all we would get is a bunch of new religions like Islam or cults like Mormons. Again, scripture explains that getting truth follows repentance. "with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth," 2 Timothy 2:25

[@lifeonahighway9700]

TULIP falls apart when compared with scripture. Sovereignty doesn’t not mean God decrees every single thing that happens. Just because God can turn something bad in to something great doesn’t mean He decided it.

[@servyhwh]

He knows the end from the beginning.. What do you think God does NOT know?

[@LightOfAllMankind]

I buffet my body, and make it my slave, so that after having preached the gospel, I don’t lose my election.

[@AlexanderBrown77]

🩸 Faith🩸 Romans 3 kJV 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[@JoshuaMrmellow]

Luke 1 37 doesn't mean G-d can do everything though like make a square circle, married bachaler or even God himself lie or sin.

[@guslarscheid3606]

If I don't have free will, then who am "I"?

[@Brenda-qo4ko]

You are who God foreordained you to be.

[@johndennison3140]

So do you believe everything that happens is preordained by God

[@guslarscheid3606]

@@Brenda-qo4ko That doesn't answer the question.

[@Brenda-qo4ko]

@@johndennison3140 Absolutely...because that's what His word tells us. Isaiah 46:10 is only one of MANY scriptures that speak of his total sovereignty.

[@NeededGR13F]

You're guslarscheid3606.

[@TS-ee7jx]

So God restrained them from their malice? Did they choose to be filled with malice or predestined to be? is God therefore restraining His own malice because he predestined them to be with malice.

[@seansimpson1133]

They already have malice. It’s apart of man’s sinful nature. God can restrain the sinfulness of man or he can allow it to run free in order to accomplish his will. It’s not his malice it’s theirs. But he can use it or restrain it to his own purpose.

[@TS-ee7jx]

@@seansimpson1133 "Its not his malice, it's theirs." okay, so freewill.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@TS-ee7jx _"okay, so freewill."_ Sounds in line with Calvinism to me. Strange that you seem to be using free will like a gotcha that way. The Reformed confessions have always affirmed human free will.

[@TS-ee7jx]

@@oracleoftroy So you take the non-deterministic and inconsistent calvinist view. I would say this is more in line with God's word but definitely makes for a confusing view.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@TS-ee7jx Not sure what you mean by non-deterministic view. You can't have free will in an indeterministic universe. It makes no sense. You have to have the ability to actually cause your will to obtain, otherwise all you have is randomness. So I am a determinist. But determinism isn't fatalism or hard determinism or any of the typical things anticalvinists have in mind. It's a whole family of theories. Calvinists take a compatiblist approach and affirm that free will is in harmony with what God ordains, indeed their confessions explicitly stated that God ordains all that comes to pass, and in doing so God establishes human free will and the liberty and contingency of second causes by what he ordains (WCF 3.1). No one could have free will at all if God didn't determine his creation such that man was given free will. The inconsistent one is the indeterminist who holds that man can exercise their free will to determine some outcome. That's a blatant contradiction.

[@lucianarrivera]

Lets not forget Romas 28-29 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, If someone's heart is already evil, God can give them over to their own destruction.

[@casualgamer542]

The question though is, where did every individuals motivations come from. According to Calvinistic determinism, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that every event, action, and decision is a direct result of God's will. Therefore, if God decrees every action, including sinful ones, the need for Him to restrain certain actions seems unnecessary and contradictory. Also, individuals are held accountable for their actions, sinful nature, and response to the gospel, even though these desires, choices, and actions are determined by God. The concept of human responsibility in Calvinism is thus deeply contradictory as God is logically both the cause of the problem and the solution. It demands accountability for actions and beliefs while simultaneously denying the possibility of genuine choice or the ability to acknowledge one's own need for redemption. Sovereignty does not mean meticulous divine determinism. Yes, God has authority over all creation and does all the saving but acknowledging your need for a savior is not meritorious.

[@troykinion5445]

I've never understood why Christians debate over Calvinism and Arminianism. Here's the Gospel, do you accept it or reject it? Does it matter if we have free will or predestined? Will it change how you view the Gospel? Does it enhance or detract from the Gospel? Why ruin something so simple and wonderful?

[@dustinnyblom7835]

Yes it does because the Bible teaches clearly the inability of man and the sovereignty of god

[@DunbarIII]

Because beliefs have implications ....and wrong doctrine can be a destructive heresy 2pet2:1

[@benjy288]

I believe it does effect the gospel, because if someone is a calvanist then they can't honestly say to someone that God loves them, because they don't know that, because they believe that God chooses to save some, but chooses to send many millions of people to burn in hell for and eternity when he could of saved them, but in reality that's not what the gospel teaches us, the gospel tells us that God loves the world and wills that no one should perish, but that all should come to repent.

[@umaikakudo]

If you have any part in contributing to your salvation you can lose it. What if you change your mind or mess up? If salvation is entirely of God then there is nothing that can prevent God from keeping you secure in his free, unearned, unmerited gift of adoption into his covenant family. John 10 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

[@lostinvictory8526]

His hand was not upon it, it was off it. It was the serpent that bruised the seed's heel. The crucifixion was an example of what happens when God takes His hand OFF the situation and allows Satan to have it all his way. Of course had Satan realized what he was doing he would never had done it.

[@Brenda-qo4ko]

Then I guess you don't believe what Acts 4:27-28 says.

[@lostinvictory8526]

The crucifixion was going to take place because all God had to do was take his hand off the situation and let Satan and fallen nature takes its course @@Brenda-qo4ko

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

Not by making man do anything but Jeff always says "just let them be them" and the only way to fulfill His will without effecting their will, would to intervene in His elects lives, to carry out His will in faith and obedience. The one common denominator between saints is that God shared His Spirit with them, in angels and in themselves, and other ways.

[@Ethan7Johnson]

If Calvinism is true, doesn’t that make God the author of evil?

[@onclesam1463]

Indeed. Calvinism leaves no room for personal responsibility.

[@thomasclark5413]

@@onclesam1463wrong

[@danib712]

Does it really tho??? I don’t get it?

[@timothyvenable3336]

Well there are primary and secondary causes. God allows evil, but doesn’t cause it. But either way, permission is from him

[@johnbanman4913]

These arguments can so easily be countered, they’re weak. Would love to see Jeff have a discussion with Leighton Flowers, the ex-Calvinist

[@rayortiz6189]

Leighton Flowers is a joke

[@SaraAddington417]

There is a debate he did with James White.

[@umaikakudo]

Ditto. James White often dismantles Flowers nonsense.

[@Given119]

Ex Calvinist... 😂

[@jordanswaim4586]

​@@umaikakudoheretic James white did what? That's hilarious.

[@dman7668]

It looks like most people on the comments section think Calvinistic theology is false, because it is false Jeff.

[@oracleoftroy]

And most of the comments reject Rome's theology as false, because it is false. Truth is decided by KZbin commenters after all...

[@kingstund101]

Can God sin?

[@The300ZXGuru]

Is 45 7 he creates evil

[@aron1193]

Every example i see used to prove Calvinism. always seems to fit molinism perfectly.

[@Brenda-qo4ko]

If that what you think they you either don't understand Molinism or Calvinism.The only one in Calvinism that has an autonomous, libertarian free will is God.Everything that happens in time is a direct result of GOD'S plans and purposes...not man's free will.

[@benjy288]

@@Brenda-qo4ko Do you not think that the all powerful all knowing God has the ability to accomplish his will through the free beings he created?

[@jokinghazard4022]

@@benjy288 it is not about whether or not He could, but who is in control. If molinism or related soteriological systems are true, then God has to shape His will around what man will do, and that is simply not biblical

[@benjy288]

@@jokinghazard4022 It simply means God can get his will done through mans free will, and part of God's will was to create free creatures, because in order to love you have to be free, he didn't create us to be robots.

[@Brenda-qo4ko]

@@benjy288 Exactly how would that work?For instance, if God intended for Christ's crucifixion to come about at a certain time and place, and exactly how it happened with the players involved then how could God be sure that happened if He didn't providentially order all events in time including people's behavior leading up to that?What about the prophecies that were given hundreds of years before his crucifixion?Could those be invalidated by people's autonomous choices made outside of God's will? Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that have not been done, saying "MY council will be established, and I will accomplish MY good pleasure." Isaiah 46:10 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to HIS will in the host of heaven AND among the inhabitants of the earth; and no one can strike His hand or say to Him, "What have you done?" Dan 4:35 Who is there who speaks and it happens UNLESS the Lord has commanded it? Lam 3:37 The lot is cast into the lap, BUT it's EVERY judgement IS FROM THE LORD. Prov 16:33 The heart of a man plans his way, BUT Yahweh establishes his steps. Prov 16:9 Come now, you who say ,"Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such city, and spend a year there and make a profit." Yet you don't know what your life will be like tomorrow.You are a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.Instead you ought to say, "IF THE LORD WILLS, we will live and also do this or that." James 4:13-15

[@kylehensley2682]

Man has free will! Everyone of these verses were read out of context and they are reading into the scripture what they want it to say! Jesus yielded himself to the will of God! God did not predestine his son! Go read the prayer in the garden! “ never the less not my will”! If man doesn’t have a will why does Jesus set his aside to complete Gods plan of salvation!!

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

God uses vessels of wrath, just as He uses vessels of mercy to accomplish His will. Remember, God is omniscient and can do anything He wills and all at once, He is God Almighty

[@andrewtsousis3130]

Why is it that Calvinists never preach the Gospel the way they actually believe it? Eg Their Gospel goes like this, “Jesus died for your sin and rose again on the 3rd day, if He allows you to believe in Him and He also gives you the ability to have Faith and repent, this means you were chosen for Salvation”. That my brothers is not the good News, it is a deceptive manipulation of the simple Gospel.

[@benjy288]

Exactly, they can't preach John 3:16, they can't honestly say to someone that God loves them and sent his son to die for their sins, because they don't know that.

[@markxivlxii1390]

That’s a strawman and misrepresentation. No reformed people add what you added to the Gospel when sharing it with others.

[@andrewtsousis3130]

@@markxivlxii1390 you’ve missed my point entirely, you are agreeing with me exactly. I am saying they don’t share those points, but it’s what they believe, so they don’t share what they believe to be true. Of course they wouldn’t share the gospel this way, but they believe it, can’t you see the ridiculousness of that view point?

[@markxivlxii1390]

@@andrewtsousis3130 I think the only thing that is ridiculous is your point, or lack of it. Adding those points is not the Gospel which is why we dont add it. No one knows who the elect are which is why we give the Gospel to everyone. Again, you have made a strawman and are misrepresenting other Christians.

[@AbBowhunter]

@@benjy288Where does scripture teach or give an example in which what you described is the model for evangelism?

[@saeligutierrez8025]

Hey guys, quick question what is the concept of tithing to your church? I’ve heard it from other Christians that says God did not ask you to ties money to your church and there’s other Christians that say typing is an important thing and that’s the way God tests you for some reason, hoping anybody from my Lijia Studios can help me

[@NeededGR13F]

It isn't an absolute requirement, but if you're not poor then you really should be doing it. They're providing you important services, and they need to be financially taken care of. I'd stay away from anyone who says it's some kind of test though, that's manipulative.

[@zachcerasani5239]

So, I’m a little confused. What exactly is the point here? I don’t think a very clear point was actually made.

[@AlexanderBrown77]

Calvinist don’t believe in free will. They believe in predestination . Some people were predestinated to go to heaven. Some people were predestinated to go to hell.

[@AlexanderBrown77]

♥️ I believe Jesus Christ, can see if anybody through their own free will. 1 Corinthians 15 kJV ✝️🩸 1-4 Romans 3 kJV 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[@zachcerasani5239]

@@AlexanderBrown77yes, I am aware of that. It didn’t seem like the hosts explained their position, just talked about the topic.

[@jtv_70]

I really despise the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate. For God so loved The World, that He gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER should believe on Him, should not perish but have eternal life. Thats all I know for certain. Argue amongst yourselves if you must.

[@AlexanderBrown77]

♥️ what’s your faith in? Romans 4 kJV 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 🤔 Faith in what? Romans 3 kJV 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[@AlexanderBrown77]

@@jtv_70 ♥️ I am a born again, Christian I am not a Calvinist. What about you? 1 Peter 1 kJV 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. ✝️ Gospel 🩸 1 Corinthians 15 kJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Romans 1 kJV 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[@RexMoore1984]

I must of missed the gospel of John Calvin in my bible. I need to get a different version I guess.

[@AlexanderBrown77]

♥️ feels good to be born again ♥️ 1 Peter 1 kJV 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. ✝️ Gospel 🩸 1 Corinthians 15 kJV 1-4 ✝️🩸 Romans 3 kJV 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[@LightOfAllMankind]

It is the same sun that melts wax, and cracks clay. It’s the predisposed character of the person who will either melt into Gods hands, or, become hard, brittle. and eventually break. That’s the meaning behind God and pharaoh.

[@davidallin6909]

Very good !

[@capitalismisdivisionofevil8322]

Humans have partial free will. God created globalized variables that are the structure of free will on lock down and then free will in the human sense is sub level of full range of options within the structural framework.

[@AdamsTaiwan]

Like a fish in a bowl, has freedom in the bowl, but not to leave it.

[@kennalugon3724]

Before embracing fully the doctrines of Grace, the only thing that I could not truly accept is if God ordained whatsoever comes to pass, then how can he blame me from the sins that I have committed? But I see it clearly in the scripture that God is sovereign in all things and humans has responsibility for his actions. Lamentations 3:37-39 Acts 4:27-28 Genesis 50:20 Isaiah 10 Then I realized, the fundamental mistake I did was I have taken God's ontology and put it in the same category as man. I have taken the nature of the infinite God and put it in a tiny little box of an finite human being just so I could reason things out. I made God's logic same as man. Now Romans 9:19 and Job 38:4-11 makes a lot of sense. God is sovereign in all things including salvation, and you are responsible to repent and put your faith in Him. God is God, and I am not. Soli Deo Gloria!

[@oracleoftroy]

It is helpful to reflect on what sense the Reformed confessions say God ordains all that comes to pass. You seem to be referencing Westminster Confession 3.1, but many will not reflect that God ordains all that comes to pass such that he establishes human free will and the liberty and contingency of second causes by what he ordains. Instead, they drop the nuance and redefine God's ordination into some sort of exhaustive determinism strawman.

[@nettie-rogueb1200]

Im confused as to how there is true free will if God restrains people's actions or changes their actions by hardening their heart. I don't understand this and it's almost upsetting, if anyone can make sense of it... i wish the guys clarified it more than just God wanting to show His power. We know God can do anything.

[@erinlindley5451]

i completely understand. i had problems with the same thing until i heard RC Sproul say this... humanity has free will... but so does God and when our wills collide God always wins.

[@mmarz2675]

Pardon me if its answered later in the video, but how was a house in heaven promised to all 12 if the plan was for Judas to betray Jesus?

[@NeededGR13F]

If you're talking about John 14, then Judas had already left the room in John 13, before Jesus made that promise.

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

to say God can't save people is the alternative view to no free will is dishonest. maybe try this as the alternative to calvinism: 1.God gave Jesus as the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world 2. God is sovereign enough to give everyone a free will choice while still wanting them to repent and believe 3. God takes away the sins of those that believe while allowing the others to to their own way summary, God is more sovereign and loving while the unrepentant is more blame worthy.

[@timothyvenable3336]

You said God wants everyone to repent and believe… I assume you’re referring to that passage in 1 Timothy or 1 Peter, can’t remember which. But psalms says God does everything he pleases. So if it pleases God to save everyone, and he does everything he pleases, why is everyone not saved?

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

@@timothyvenable3336 ezekiel, isaiah, john, etc. He does want all saved, BUT His gift is not forced on people. Ez 33:11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ Sit back sometime and listen to an audio bible of ezekiel and tell me God does not want everyone to turn from their wicked ways and repent

[@timothyvenable3336]

@@rocketsurgeon1746 I hear you, and I’m not disagreeing! But I asked you a question and you ignored it, what would be your response to the psalm that says God does all that he pleases?

[@rocketsurgeon1746]

@@timothyvenable3336 God pleases to give men a free choice, which you will deny. How can you not see that your two choices are not the only ones? Please read your Bible and spend less time having calvs "explain" what it says. Read it for yourself my friend

[@timothyvenable3336]

@@rocketsurgeon1746 bro… what the heck lol your putting words in my mouth! When did I deny free choice? When did I mention Calvinism? When did I say I don’t read the Bible? I simply asked you a question because I wanted to hear another person’s thoughts on it! I didn’t even tell you I was a Calvinist, you assumed because I asked you a clarification question! Wow my friend, this is why Arminians and other non Calvinists get a bad reputation… I’m not sure why you basically attacked my foundation as a Christian (saying I don’t read the Bible and only listen to Calvinists) and that’s the opposite of what Christ wants from us By the way, thank you for answering my question, I was genuinely curious on how that works because I know God wants all to come to him and be saved. I wanted to hear another persons thoughts on it to help clarify my own

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

You're missing the fact that God intervened in Joseph's life in the dream, using His elect to cause his brothers to be themselves. Joseph provoked them to jealousy when Joseph told the dean to them. His elect are what carries out His will, to keep His being just intact. The ONE intervening in Joseph's life set a multitude of events that brought about eventing from that point on.

[@nesto2851]

How was God sovereign if Adam and Eve had free will? Can you guys talk on that one. Because if they didn’t have free will that means there sin came from God.

[@NeededGR13F]

Scripture doesn't give enough information on their wills pre-fall.

[@BrockJamesStory]

I think the problem is you look at it like because God can and could he does or did. I don’t think that’s the case. God can control the dice when you role it and gamble, but that doesn’t mean he is or does.

[@vetteman75]

what is the apology for back row baptists finding themselves in the breast feeding part of an integrated worship and being stared at like it was purposeful thing to find a new church to go and creep at?

[@djs9315]

All of what you quoted with regard to predestination and what God determined is in the bible.. so there is no issue there.. but why does tat have to mean everything is determined.. yes, God is alpha and omega.. yes he’s the creator and finisher of and in all things.. but just saying he’s SOVERIGN over and over and over again is just a word.. like non Calvinists don’t get that God is top of the food chain. It’s kinda like a gas lighting tactic, moralistically peddled out of the lips and somehow a Calvinist saying it on repeat moves them (in their eyes, closer to God than your average Christian.. who is kinda looked at with pity as he “just doesn’t understand Calvinism the poor thing” I actually like some of

[@benjy288]

Yea, its like they take the word soverign to mean that God basically controls everything, they can't seem to understand that God being outside of time, and knowing our every thought, and how people would react in certain situations could still make his will come to pass without overriding the will of his free creatures.

[@JJ-up5be]

Can God lie?

[@ogloc6308]

No

[@derrickcarson]

How can the Truth lie? That's like asking can a triangle be a rectangle.

[@JesusistheonetrueGod]

Can the light dark?

[@mistertracey1]

I doesn't really seem like you addressed freewill all that much. I don't understand why Calvanism is important

[@DongNguyen-gv2mj]

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[@DongNguyen-gv2mj]

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[@MargaretPedro]

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[@gwine2nine52]

8:42 to 8:50 What about free will?

[@terrysonnenschein6702]

So here’s my question why can’t Armenian ism and Calvinism both be true. You were obviously chosen to do what you’re doing The apostle Paul was chosen on the way to Damascus. Most Christians of that era chose Christ. The apostle Paul met Jesus in his life was changed so he was chosen, so I believe both exist in tandem For God, so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that (whoever)should believe.

[@doubleeranch169]

Did Christians of that era choose Christ, or did he choose them? It is a difficult part of theology to wrap your mind around no doubt. The more I understand about my sinful heart and nature, I am amazed that anyone can say they chose Christ. Listen to the verses of “come thou fount of every blessing”. Even reconciled and redeemed, we have a sin nature that does not choose God. We all like sheep have gone astray…

[@mdcopenhaver]

I wonder if it doesn’t matter which one is true. I wonder if it’s just that some people need to here the gospel from Arminian to be saved and some need to hear it from Calvinist to be saved.

[@Lando-g1m]

@@mdcopenhaveryou don’t have to believe in one or the other to be saved this doctrine isn’t based on your salvation. I know I was saved before understanding or know about Calvinism or Arminianism. The more you look into each according to scripture the more texts in scripture you see like up with and are consistent with Calvin’s views of the doctrines of grace. I feel like as you stay on he path of biblical consistency throughout you see in John 6 and 10 doctrines of grace being blatant. It is hard to grasp no doubt, but some of the most incomprehensible things about God and his sovereignty are the most beautiful and glorious things.

[@terrysonnenschein6702]

For me, Calvinism has never really made much sense every other religion relies on works. At least you have the certainty of uncertainty. You have to wait until you get there. In Calvinism there’s just uncertainty Was I chosen by God or not you’re helpless works don’t work and you don’t have a choice. There is no hope in Calvinism. Armenian ism is the only one that makes sense. If all men get to choose, then God is just in fair if we don’t , then he’s not. I believe everyone is given a choice, but Calvinist don’t believe that it’s very sad.

[@kellygipson8354]

Because Arminius rejected the tenants of the Reformation. He sided with Rome specifically when it comes to the will of man, which is the point that all of Rome's errors spring forth from.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

But He didn't say that to them, all they knew was their iniquity. Although He is telling us that He allowed them to be them. See, they didn't want to murder Him because they knew what would Hakeem of they were able to but were blood thirsty because they were wicked at heart. In hindsight we know all!

[@truthovertea]

Calvinism is a false, if it were true than God is the author of evil. God is not the author of evil, otherwise every sin was at the fault of God unless we say neither humans nor God have free well which is even more incoherent. Molinism allows both God to have full sovereignty while human has free will. Gods will is done through humans having free will. No one can infringe on Gods will as it will be done. Middle knowledge is the best was to reconcile both truths. Jeff, I would love to speak with you about this one day, God bless!

[@jordanswaim4586]

I pray you guys, of your own free will granted to you by God, reject hypercalvanist heresy.

[@NeededGR13F]

They already reject Hypercalvinism. Hypercalvinism is the idea that you have to look for signs of regeneration before you share the Gospel with someone.

[@guslarscheid3606]

It's ironic that calvanists think that we're all gods.

[@douglasmcnay644]

Firstly, it is spelled Calvinists. Secondly, in what way?

[@guslarscheid3606]

@@douglasmcnay644 If I don't have free will then I'm God, if you don't have free will then you're God.

[@NeededGR13F]

I think you're thinking of the Mormons.

[@oracleoftroy]

​@@guslarscheid3606?? So when Calvinists confess that we do have free will like in Westminster Confession chapter 9 and 3 and 5, what happens to your assertions?

[@guslarscheid3606]

@@oracleoftroy I'm not sure what that is. If you're a calvinist that believes we have free will, it seems like you'll have a different set of problems. I'm speaking about the belief that we do not have free will, which would seem to mean that God is acting out everything and I don't believe that to be true.

[@lostinvictory8526]

So, if God can save anyone if he chooses, and he chooses not to save some, then he must hate those people who he does not choose - Welcome to Westboro Baptist theology.

[@benjy288]

Yep, which contradicts passages in the Bible which state that God loves the world and wills that no one should perish.

[@NeededGR13F]

He's decided that they'll serve a different purpose than those he saves.

[@KingJesusSavedMe]

Psalm 5:5 and 11:5 , Romans 9:13.

[@lostinvictory8526]

So whether I am saved or not is a lottery? Or if he chooses then why does he hate those he chooses not to save?@@NeededGR13F

[@lostinvictory8526]

The first two have nothing to do with the doctrine of predestination which claims that God chooses whom he saves not based on any of their traits, nor on foreknowledge of whether they would accept, but based on his sovereign will. Romans 9:13 could indicated that except it does not mean what you think it means, the word hate there is a hangover from the KJV and not what it means today, which is how I used the word in my comment.@@KingJesusSavedMe

[@owensullivan252]

I love Jeff but there's a strawman that he and Dr. White use (I think unintentionally), and that's this idea that opponents of Calvinism believe that everything God does not do is what God CANNOT do. There is no inconsistency with believing that God is sovereign, that God is able to violate free will if He so chooses, and that God does not violate free will or that He does so sparingly.

[@calvinholt5630]

Free will and predestination are incompatible. It’s either or.

[@Phil-oy6mw]

Predestination is biblical

[@wishuhadmyname]

Amen. "Free will" is a concept from pagan philosophy. God predestines all things in His creation

[@emerealm3779]

It's free will in the eyes of us, but not to God who knows how everything plays out based on the way he designs it. We think we are doing what we want but we are doing what we were destined to do by our nature and upbringing

[@icxcnika7722]

​@@wishuhadmynamelol free will isn't pagan that's Calvinists nonsense.

[@dustinnyblom7835]

It depends what you mean by free will

[@ghostgate82]

Laws are predetermined. Choices aren’t. Refer to Benford’s Law and Galton Boards.

[@airikd6535]

Love and respect you guys, but this is a perfect example of sitting in your own theological echo chamber. Your arguments, like the ones presented here, simply don't hold up to solid counter arguments by people like Leighton Flowers and the like. God bless fellas 🫡

[@jdoorenb]

Lol

[@sylvestreherrera6900]

Leighton is that you??!!😂

[@markxivlxii1390]

Lol, good one. We’re waiting for Sot101 to actually walk through a text with sound exegesis. He hasnt done it yet.

[@obkook7205]

I think Leighton has done a remarkable job explaining Romans 9 in its full context. He's been a blessing to those of us who do not accept the doctrine of Calvinism. Still a fan of Pastor Jeff and James@@markxivlxii1390

[@Arman_Kaymakcian]

Love you brothers, may I just point out respectfully that when you speak of the murder of Jesus, or Joseph’s story, you are borrowing terms from a perspective counter to Calvinism, ie: , “people making choices”, “God allowing it to play out” Gods hand being upon it”. These are terms and ideas that lend themselves to an anti deterministic perspective. Correct me if I’m wrong but Calvinism says that every thought word and deed of man and creation is decreed by God, both good and evil. That is very different from what your presenting. I just wanted to point that out to you, and again I say it with all respect and love. It’s inconsistent with what Calvinism teaches. Weather you perceive it or not weather it’s intentional or not, you are lightening terminology to make the idea more believable or palatable. God does indeed as you say allow people to make choices, his hand is upon circumstances, and even in all of that free will messiness his purposes are still brought to pass. Foreknowledge is a mysterious thing to finite creatures and yet both things are true, God has in his sovereignty given man the ability to make choices and yet He knows the end from the beginning. If Calvinism were true, and every thought word and deed of man and all of creation are directly decreed and dictated by God, then every conditional promise is nothing but theatre. For example the nations can’t conspire against God because God would be the one decreeing that the nations are conspiring, the fool says in his heart there is no God because God determined he would say that in his heart. Compatiblism is a feeble and unrealistic concept and it’s insufficient to wrestle with the issues. The entire biblical narrative from my perspective would be something of a charade if Calvinism were true. That’s just one believers perspective. I don’t mean to be offensive just calling it like I see it . God bless you brothers

[@oracleoftroy]

No, those are very much a piece of Calvinism. May I recommend that you read Calvinist confessions rather than follow men like Leighton who don't accurately reflect what Calvinists have actually taught on those matters? The Westminster Confession gives a great overview of the Reformed position. Chapter 9 lays out the Calvinist affirmation of human free will and chapters 3 and 5 speak to how that interacts with God's decree and providence, respectively.

[@Arman_Kaymakcian]

I’ll take the time to read that my bro God bless you, I’ve listened to many many Calvinists I think I have a good understanding of compatibilism, we’re gonna have to agree to disagree. If your position is that difficult to understand, that’s pretty concerning. That being said being as how I am not a Calvinist you can’t fault me it’s been decreed from the foundations of the world. ✝️

[@Arman_Kaymakcian]

Ps. I don’t need leighton flowers to know Calvinism is false

[@oracleoftroy]

@@Arman_Kaymakcian No, it's pretty easy to understand, it's just much harder to refute it if the argument is based on what we actually confess. People who don't love Jesus enough to obey his commandments, particularly the commandments to present multiple witnesses when bringing a charge against another love lying about our actual position. And sadly, people hear their claims and are taken in by them and never question whether they are accurate. The confessions help set the record straight. I don't care if you agree with my view, but I'd love for everyone who disagrees to do so because of what we actually say, not based on a misrepresentation of our beliefs.

[@Arman_Kaymakcian]

Just out of curiosity what was it I said that is not consistent with Calvinism according the “the confessions” do you believe God decrees everything that takes place in creation both good and evil?

[@acsberean4092]

Critics of Calvinism say it is a heretical system of fallen human philosophy as it denies that God was not sovereign over creation until He created it. God's Sovereignty is not an eternal attribute that was compromised by the libertarian freedom He gave human beings but His right to have dominion over His creation. Calvinism denies God loves everyone in the truest sense because He already chose before the foundation of the world who would spend eternity suffering in the torment of damnation in Hell or eternity in Heaven with Him. Calvinism does away with free will. People don't make any choices because they are programmed before birth to think and act as they do in every facet of life. God is the author of all sin and pain and created satan to deceive people into sin. Because the Elect is guaranteed entrance into Heaven, God allows/authorizes/permits trials and tribulation, accidents, sickness, heartache, sorrow, pain, anguish, and tragedy to happen to teach/discipline/chastise/etc. Because God predestines people, there is nothing they can do or have done to change any of it. There is no use in praying for friends or family because God allows only the predetermined Elect to be saved and everyone else to be eternally condemned.

[@oracleoftroy]

_"...as [Calvinism] denies that God was not sovereign over creation until He created it."_ That's a new one to me. Where does Calvinism claim that? Offhand, that sounds more like Molinism as God has no sovereign authority over the potential humans in potential universes and can only learn of their potential actions through middle knowledge. On Calvinism, God ordains what he does in creation because he is sovereign and intentional about the entire process and his purpose for creating this very universe. _"Calvinism denies God loves everyone in the truest sense because He already chose before the foundation of the world who would spend eternity suffering in the torment of damnation in Hell or eternity in Heaven with Him."_ That sounds more like equal ultimacy, which Calvinism rejects. What is the "truest sense" of love anyway? God removes peoples sins and then sends legally innocent people to hell anyway? Universalism? Not sure where you go with that philosophy. _"Calvinism does away with free will."_ Calvinism probably disagrees with your version of free will, and given how few critics of Calvinism actually can lay out their theory of free will in the first place and treat it as some nebulous thing, they probably have a better defined version of free will than you have. I'd point you to Westminster Confession chapter 9 for the Reformed affirmation of human free will, as well as chapter 3 and 5 for how it interacts with God's decree and providence, respectively. _"Because God predestines people, there is nothing they can do or have done to change any of it."_ They could have just not sinned, then they wouldn't be condemned and wouldn't need predestination unto life. But sinners can't save themselves, they need a savior. Don't begrudge God for being a savior. _"There is no use in praying for friends or family because God allows only the predetermined Elect to be saved and everyone else to be eternally condemned."_ God is the savior, so praying to God for anyone's salvation is the proper thing to do. But on a libertarian free will system, where God's hands are tied by the will of the human, it is better to pray to the person you want saved that they save themselves.

[@acsberean4092]

@@oracleoftroy I simply posted what critics have said about Calvinism. My beliefs are not mentioned. Thanks for the reply.

[@benjy288]

I still don't see any evidence for calvinism.

[@johnbanman4913]

Durban is so sharp. I wish he were not a Calvinist.

[@rayortiz6189]

You wish he wouldn’t believe the biblical doctrines of grace? Would you prefer him to be catholic?

[@lainie4344]

Calvinism isn’t biblical. Do you believe God predestined certain men to hell and then turns around and laughs at them?

[@CT-if2tt]

@@lainie4344 Just curious what you do with 1 Peter 2:8 " 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." Or with Romans 9:16-23, or John 1:13 or John 6:65, or dozens of others? I used to believe I had "free" will but the more I studied the Bible, I saw the only way these verses can harmonize with the "free will" verses is through the doctrines of grace. If you're in Christ, you actually want the doctrines of grace. Otherwise, you're relying on good works instead of God to keep you saved, and we know good works have nothing to do with salvation.

[@lainie4344]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@CT-if2tt1 Peter 2:8 has to do with fulfilled prophecy so yes it was to come to pass by Gods foreknowledge. John 1:13 just means that God is the only one who saves not man. Again in John 6:65 no one can come to God unless God grants them Heaven which would be those with a sincere heart, not the people who say “look at all I’ve done for you now give me heaven” we agree works don’t save anyone. And of course Ramon’s 9:16:23 is simply about man having authority over God. God has ultimate authority and God hardened Pharaohs heart as an answer to prayer. He was the modern Hitler so don’t think Pharaoh was predestined to hell from birth but rather he was give over to his sins. I do not rely on good works, I rely on the promises of God. See Calvinist have no way of knowing if they themselves are saved. James whit even said “idk if I’ll refute the faith later on in life and go to hell” I believe if I repent and believe in Jesus I will go to heaven. None of that is works but it is obedience to Gods command to all men everywhere. That’s how God can have the desire to save all men but not fulfill it. Because He wants something that He commanded but He can’t make us make the decision. But he can set us up perfectly like he did Israel in Isaiah 5:1-4 and give us the best chance to find Him acts 17:26-27

[@oracleoftroy]

@@lainie4344_"Do you believe God predestined certain men to hell and then turns around and laughs at them?"_ As a Calvinist, no I don't believe that, and I'd avoid anyone who is trying to deceive you into thinking we do believe that. I'd suggest you check out the Reformed confessions for what they actually believe. I recommend the Westminster Confession. At least then you will hear what we actually confess and can agree or disagree as seems right to you.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

You keep bringing up Jesus as if this proves God makes us do what we do, okay but didn't Jesus say I lay my life down, no man makes me? Jesus said not my will, which was that the cup of His wrath would pass but His, the fathers will be done instead. Why? Faith in His Father, unfeigned faith! Jesus wilfully laid down His life, why. Because He had to do first what no man was able to do in faith, in order to be the first among many brethren. Can we love if God makes us love Him? Or is love only possible if someone is freely able to do so? It's not that God would be a monster but it's that it would go against His character of being a just God. Speaking on how you all read into Scripture, if you have presuppositions of something before you read it you will have a bias going into it.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

Did God literally harden His heart or was it the very command that was given to this proud at heart man? To harden is to resist James 4:6 King James Version 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. With each command he hardened his own heart. This is why the israelites hardened their heart to Moses, who would come time and time again to commands them what they must do. Therefore, don't make God out to be a monster that determined the Pharoah to perish in hell when He assures us that He is not like man, who is not slack but is long-suffering that NONE should perish but all come to repentance. Therefore it was the Pharaoh and him alone that lead to him perishing in eternal punishment. Could God had shared His Spirit with the Pharaoh? Yes, of course, but that would against His own will that His people would humble themselves. To use your words Jeff "let them be them."

[@AdamsTaiwan]

What I wondered about before was "how" or by what "means" did God use to harden Pharaoh's heart? Did he touch or speak, "heart be hardened"? That was my thought. However, now I know that scripture gives us all we need to know and sometimes it's revealed to us. We see in scripture that God sent the plagues on Eygpt and Pharaoh "temporarily" gave up. I believe by this pressure his heart was softened. When God showed kindness and stopped the plague, that's when Pharaoh hardened his heart in Ex. 8:32 or the LORD hardened his heart in Ex. 9:12 I see the same today. When do people 'seek' God? When there's trouble. (Yes, I know about Rom. 3:10-12) When do people ignore God? When all is well.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

@AdamsTaiwan Pharaoh was a proud man, and not even plaques were enough to keep him from resisting. This is man, throughout the history of the world, Israel hardened their heart every time Moses gave them commands. The Pharaoh was raised so that we could see how long-suffering he was toward the man fitted to destruction. Romans 9:22 “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” Could God not have taken the Pharaoh's life? Yes, of course, He could but He chose to allow him to continue to resist Him, not because the Pharaoh was strong enough to thwart God. Only because God allowed him to, for His praise and glory. I don't know about you but I committed many sins, too many to count, and He never took my life, even though He surely could have. I praise Him for being so gracious toward me and that He never wanted me to perish and now, after 39 years I turned to Him for mercy and I know I am forgiven, as much as I know I don't deserve to be. I am now a vessel of honor, all who are in Christ.

[@AdamsTaiwan]

@@MyRoBeRtBaKeR Soli Deo Gloria. Thank you for sharing.

[@lainie4344]

When does predestination start? Is it from conception or from a certain age?

[@caseycockerham3925]

When something is predestined it's predetermined. Scripture says we were chosen in Him " from before the foundation of the world ". So it's in eternity before time and creation itself.

[@caseycockerham3925]

Apologia is an awesome ministry but I would encourage you to also check out Ligonier Ministries and different resources they have. Really edifying 👍

[@benjy288]

@@caseycockerham3925 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless, its not saying God chooses who will be in Christ and who won't, or to put it another way, those that chose to accept Christ as their savior are destined to be blameless, just like if someone chooses to take guitar lessons everyday for 20 years they will be destined to be a good guitar player, the pre part of destined is just because God being all knowing and outside of time already knew which people would accept him and which would reject him before he even created us.

[@NeededGR13F]

@@benjy288 where did God get the knowledge of who would accept or reject him?

[@benjy288]

@@NeededGR13F He's all knowing, that's like asking where did he get the power to create the universe from nothing, from himself, he's God.

[@hollon1697]

Molinism >

[@SailingTheologicalSeas]

1: So God restrains people from doing what He determined they would do? 2: yes, but its okay, because their will wants to do evil, so God is actually just allowing them to do what they desire. 1: did god determine that their will would desire evil? 2: yes. 1: so God determined that they would only want to do evil, and then punishes them for doing the evil He determined them to desire to do? 2: yes 1: gotcha, so God is restraining his own decree? 2: ...... 1: ‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:23‭-‬29‬ ‭NIV‬‬ [23] So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? [24] If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [25] If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. [26] And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. [27] In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. [28] Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, [29] but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” 2: *gulp*

[@oracleoftroy]

What view are you trying to refute? God restrains humans from what humans want to do. Humans are determined to do evil, God didn't determine that, indeed, he created man very good but with the possibility of doing evil. If you mean to refute the Calvinist position, I would recommend brushing up on what Calvinists actually claim. I recommend the Westminster Confession for that, especially chapter 9, which deals with the Calvinist affirmation of human free will, and chapters 3 and 5 which speaks to how it intersects God's decree and providence, respectively.

[@SailingTheologicalSeas]

@@oracleoftroy I am refuting any deterministic position. I am less concerned with using lingo that the calvinists use to try to make their position acceptable, but more concerned with pointing out the logical errors of the system. Slapping "mystery" over logical implications is not acceptable. I am up to snuff on what calvinists claim and believe, I just don't see any need to use their approved lingo. Even if I do, it still doesn't remove the logical implications of the system. WCF, chapter 5, section 1: 1. God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold,a direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,b from the greatest even to the least,c by his most wise and holy providence,d according to his infallible fore-knowledgee and the free and immutable counsel of his own will,f to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.g That statement disqualifies any rationality for holding that God does not author or cause evil. This is the conundrum that causes calvinists to punt to mystery because the implication is clear. My focus is on the system, not the people.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@SailingTheologicalSeas_"I am refuting any deterministic position."_ What does this mean to you? Does it include Gen 1? God said "let there be light, and there was light." etc. That's a form of determinism. Is it allowed? Too many people who are against "determinism" don't seem to understand what that entails. Surely you don't think everything is random indeterminism, right? God has some degree of control, no matter how small, right? If anything, if you affirm free will, you have to affirm some degree of determinism, as you are making the claim at minimum that you can determine your own actions in an act of free will. If everything is pure indeterminism, then you can't even do that much. _"I am up to snuff on what calvinists claim and believe, I just don't see any need to use their approved lingo."_ The funny thing is, usually this means you use lingo in very unusual ways, like Leightons "able to respond" definition of 'responsibility'. I don't care if you accept the "Calvinist" definition of words, but if we could agree to use them in ways that any standard dictionary or Biblical lexicon would use it, that would be fine by me. It's hard for me to keep up with the ever shifting definitions anti-Calvinists use. _"That statement disqualifies any rationality for holding that God does not author or cause evil."_ Not at all, you have to insert extra teachings that aren't there to come to that conclusion. Consider the very next section: 2. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the _first cause,_ all things come to pass immutably and infallibly, yet, by the same providence, He ordereth them to fall out _according to the nature of second causes,_ either necessarily, *freely, or contingently.* If your understanding of Calvinism does not allow for free or contingent second causes, you are arguing a strawman. And so, the way we understand God upholding, disposing, and governing all creatures, actions, and things is such that they can still act freely or contingently. Nothing about section 1 demands an interpretation that disallows second 2.

[@SailingTheologicalSeas]

@oracleoftroy The ability to freely act without prior causation is not a form of determinism. Unless you are equivocating the word determinism, of course. Let me clarify: That statement logically disqualifies any rationality for holding that God does not author or cause evil. "Free or contingent" second causes are completely moot on calvinism. All it does is kick the can down the road. God's "second causes" can never be contingent on determinism anyway. If they were, they would have the possibility of not occurring, which is not possible on determinism. And nothing can be done "freely" in a deterministic system either as free would mean uncaused or without "bounding." (Notice I didn't say uninfluenced). Where we differ is here: What calvinists believe ≠ what calvinism entails. I understand that some of my claims are not what calvinists explicitly hold to, but I am fully convinced that the logical implications of their view are such that God becomes the programmer while we are merely doing what He preprogrammed us to do. Anything less is just incontinuity with what logically flows from their theological framework.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@SailingTheologicalSeas_"The ability to freely act without prior causation is not a form of determinism. Unless you are equivocating the word determinism, of course. "_ That is one particular theory within a broader category of "determinism". Many who oppose Calvinism and "determinism" don't really get into definitions and just use the word haphazardly. So, lets say you choose to eat lunch. There is no causal relationship between you feeling hungry and it being around noon that cause you to choose to eat at that time? You could have just as easily pushed off eating for the next month? What exactly do you mean by "no prior causes"? Because I'm sure you'll immediately see why your choice to eat has many prior causes that influence it. What possible choice can you make that has no prior causes? _"That statement logically disqualifies any rationality for holding that God does not author or cause evil."_ Define "author". God is of course the ultimate cause of evil in the sense that he is the creator and sustainer of the Universe. Presuming you are a Christian, you believe this. There is no one beside God, God and no one else made all things. There is no co-creator or gnostic demiurge you can blame things on, God is the first cause. Yet evil acts through second causes. Evil is man using the very good things God made to oppose God. It is a twisting of the good. Man, not God, authors evil through second causes. Everything God made, as primary cause, he made very good. _""Free or contingent" second causes are completely moot on calvinism. All it does is kick the can down the road."_ How? This sounds like actual confessional Calvinism doesn't agree with your strawman, so you would rather argue against the strawman than the actual position laid out in the confessions as held to by Reformed denominations around the world. _"God's "second causes" can never be contingent on determinism anyway. If they were, they would have the possibility of not occurring, which is not possible on determinism."_ You seem to have two very specific ideas in mind, a view where humans can determine things in an uncaused way, and a view where everything humans do is directly controlled by God. Calvinists reject both these views and in truth, there are very many other options that still fall under the deterministic bucked that aren't those two options. Calvinists aren't hard determinists, and since your critique requires them to be, it fails. Calvinists also reject the alternative you offer. Really, the entire argument hinges on a false dichotomy. _"And nothing can be done "freely" in a deterministic system either as free would mean uncaused or without "bounding." (Notice I didn't say uninfluenced)."_ Merriam Webster: uninfluenced adjective: not affected or altered by an external force : not influenced influence noun: 1: the power or capacity of *causing an effect* in indirect or intangible ways : SWAY influence verb: 1: to affect or alter by indirect or intangible means At this point, I wonder what your issue with Calvinism is. No one thinks God directly manipulates people. He causes them to do things in indirect and intangible ways. But an indirect cause is still a cause. An intangible cause is still a cause. Calling it an "influence" doesn't remove the determinism. It just makes you feel better about holding to determinism. Semantics aside, what you just said is still under the family of determinism, one that accords with Confessional Calvinism. Oh wait, is Merriam Webster one of those "Calvinist" dictionaries you want to avoid? Then pick your own and show me what you mean. But this is exactly what I was just saying, anti-Calvinists use words in very non-standard ways. Blaming Calvinists for using terms in their normal and historic ways is silly. _"What calvinists believe ≠ what calvinism entails."_ In my experience, when an anti-Calvinist says this, it comes across as admitting, "what I need Calvinists to believe is different from what they actually believe, and I don't love Christ enough to obey his commandments to not bear false witness and back up my charges with multiple witnesses. I'd rather lie than argue as a Christian ought." _"I understand that some of my claims are not what calvinists explicitly hold to, but I am fully convinced that the logical implications of their view are such that God becomes the programmer while we are merely doing what He preprogrammed us to do. Anything less is just incontinuity with what logically flows from their theological framework."_ I don't think you can reach that conclusion without ignoring what Calvinists say that contradict the needed premises. You have to pick and choose which doctrines they "really" believe and insert doctrines they reject to reach the conclusion. And so once again, we see an anti-Calvinist argument that can't actually work against the confessional belief Reformed churches actually hold their ministers to, but one that stretches the truth to reach the desired conclusion.

[@Lee-xn8by]

A God that can create an entire universe can certainly accomplish his will using creatures with freewill. And under no circumstance does freewill create an impotent God, what a silly, lazy argument that one is.

[@benjy288]

Yep

[@obkook7205]

I agree 100%. A chess player who still controls the board, even while his opponent is free to move his pieces around is way more powerful than a guy moving both sides around like a game of solitaire.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@obkook7205 I find that analogy awkward. Is God just a man, that he comes to this chess game with its board and rules premade before him, that he learns them and becomes really good at the game? Or is he the creator and sustainer of the game, the very inventor of the rules and game, and the first cause of all things chess? Is God subject to these chess rules, or is he the supreme judge and king of all these rules? I think the analogy doesn't even begin to describe why God is like he is, and seems to present God as more like a Zeus like being, basically a human with superpowers.