What AOE Half on a save damage means in D&D 5E

AOE Half on a save damage and what it means.
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[@PackTactics]

Tabletop builds happen to also cover what I said! I didn't know this until now! tabletopbuilds.com/more-min-than-max-asis-versus-feats/ i.imgur.com/obmm5aI.png

[@SomeoneMysterious1352]

Why do you calculate the Warlock baseline the way you do at and after 5th LVL if each eldritch blast hits separately? (I'm trying to work out how these charts work for myself so that I can apply them to other spells).

[@PackTactics]

@@SomeoneMysterious1352 Its just a messuring tool I use. You can go with anything you want really.

[@LucanVaris]

*steals your gator, and makes him earn the moneys back.* >:D

[@williammeek4078]

I realized how effective an AOE caster with a moderate primary stat still is when my half joke dwarven Divine Soul that took Ritual Caster (for the familiar) and Fey Touched (I thought a Fey touched dwarf would be hilarious and the ASI) turned out to be effective. I just thought it would be funny to play a single class sorcerer that has a spell book and a familiar, wore half plate armor, swung a war hammer, and cast Cleric spells. But he tore some monsters up.

[@LucanVaris]

@@williammeek4078 It's always funny to laugh at the joke character... ...until he hits you with the punchline. >:3

[@Mass0404]

Gator forced a Wisdom save on Kobold by stealing his gold. Kobold saves but Gator still takes half his coin purse.

[@louiesatterwhite3885]

I choose the bottom half

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Remember kids, an arrow might have your name on it, but a Fireball is addressed "To whom it may concern".

[@Drekromancer]

This comment needs to be on display in every wizard's tower.

[@louiesatterwhite3885]

Meteor Swarm is a public service announcement

[@overlord-6644]

Fireball rated E for everybody

[@landanheath]

A nuke is reply all

[@celsiusnebula]

@@overlord-6644 E for everybody and escpecially e for evocation wizards!

[@caespaillat]

Id like to think youd be proud of me for something i did the other day. I ran up to a wizard, disarmed his spellcasting focus, and used my item interaction to pick it up and run back to the party with a gift for our wizard.

[@PackTactics]

Good job!

[@lucaspereira551]

Sounds optimal.

[@vagabondflow]

This makes the Evoker's lvl 6 ability better than expected.

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

Well that’s comparing spells that are save or half to spell that are attack rolls. Turns out they’re about even in efficiency when based off the same ability score and not targeting the upper and lower extreme saves of int and con. Attack rolls are more likely to have advantage and might crit. Saves are more likely to have disadvantage due to magic resistance and can’t crit. But do half damage on that more likely fail state. The smaller dice usually means fire bolt remains supreme.

[@onurbayramoglu880]

@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar toll the dead deals 2d12 magical damage at 6th level and even though opponent makes their save they take half of it guaranteed, compare that with 2 normal attacks from martial classes which don't guarantee damage and it makes sense

[@onurbayramoglu880]

9th level evoker's have access to wall of force + 99 toll the dead combo and we all know that 10th level evoker's magic missile power spike is huge.

[@micahswerens2472]

@@onurbayramoglu880 Pretty sure cantrips don't do half damage on save, it's all or nothing.

[@mailcs06]

@Micah Swerens Evocation Wizards get Potent cantrip, which makes Save cantrips deal half damage on a successful save. But otherwise you are correct

[@ricardopadulajr]

Man, this is awesome. Completely changed my perspective on some things like getting some AoE in my Bladesinger with INT as a third stat and giving more value to the level 6 ability of Evokers paired with Toll the Dead. You rock once more, Kobold!

[@Casino220]

Bladesinger in particular among casters can make a strong argument for this, yeah. Your personal defensive buffs, buffs in general, aoe blasting, all out of combat utility, they all barely benefit from higher Int. The best effect it has is on spells prepared and the arcana roll for an underleveled counterspell, aoe blasting being runner up. This is especially clear the more you lean into a fighter multiclass or something like that.

[@gasparperalta3725]

Generally the thing you want high save DC for is save or suck spells that dont do damage but instead entirely change the battle field or cripple a creature basically making the encounter a lot easier if they stick. Like slow, these are the spells legendary creatures want to save their resistance for

[@Del_1710]

Stunning strike

[@DDCRExposed]

When I saw Gator in the thumbnail, I thought it was a guest on the subject. What I found was completely different and excellent! I enjoyed the updated look of Gator 👍

[@Xane875]

Some guy was arguing with me a while back on Reddit that against a single target, a 3rd level Scorching Ray is just as good as Fireball, and when I told him that Fireball will always do damage no matter what, they kept saying the chance to do full damage was basically the same mathematically so it doesn’t really matter, and that “wanting to do any amount of damage at all guaranteed doesn’t matter and is only an advantage if that’s specifically what you want out of a spell”, which of course is stupid. I feel so vindicated now. I really thought half on a save spells spoke for themselves.

[@antongrigoryev6381]

Well, you need ridiculously bad luck to miss all four Rays. But yeah, Half On Save gives more damage on average than crit chance. Scorching Ray may be still worth keeping around if you have some way of getting an advantage though, its damage is much higher then.

[@therealbaddie6959]

This seems like something where you’d have to go “okay does the thing I’m fighting have high ac? Fireball. Okay does the thing I’m fighting have high dex saves/advantage on magic saves/low ac? Scorching ray if you really can’t hit a second person.” Yea so you’re basically right, especially since anything with high dex saves probs has good ac anyways.

[@Femaiden]

fireball does 8d6 damage scorching ray from a 3rd level slot does 2d6 per ray fireball is guaranteed to do at least 4d6 or 8d6 while scorching ray can do 0d6,2d6,4d6,6d6, or 8d6 and scorching ray requires 4 dice rolls, where fireball only requires 1. to do as much as fireall, one would need to succeed at least 2/4 of the dice roll, where fireball needs to succeed none. to match fire ball's 1 succesful roll, the ray user would have to roll 4 consecutive successes. . . yeah, mathematically, there's no way scorching ray beats fireball even against a single target. unless its a cramped space where fireball is impossible without friendly fire. . but if you're using fireball, you're likely an evoker and should have the sculpt spells feature

[@himedo1512]

He's right though. You just need to know how to maximize. 4 scorching rays hits for 8d6. Yes, the same as a fireball BUT. Scorching rays can crit so its damage potential goes slightly up. And further you can stack hex with it far better than fireball. Hex procs once. Scorching rays? Hex can proc 4 times since its 4 attacks. That its now a potential of 12d6 of damage versus 9d6. You can even miss a ray and still even out. And if the succeed on the save you can miss 2 rays and still more do more damage. Preparation is key.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

More to the point, upcasting damage spells is typically a losing proposition to begin with, since most damage spells scale pretty poorly compared to existing spells at higher levels.

[@crimfan]

This is really useful to know. Single target and/or save neg effects demand higher save DCs but if you have half damage things aren't so bad. If you want to build a character like a War Cleric who's taken some levels of Fighter to be able to mix it up, you can afford to have some slack in the Wisdom.

[@PackTactics]

I dont recommend levels in fighter for cleric but you can totally do that and still be effective.

[@crimfan]

@@PackTactics Yeah generally it's not really a great mix due to the cost in terms of casting, but I've seen people wanting to do it.

[@crimfan]

I agree, the cost in terms of spellcasting can be pretty substantial, but some folks really like Action Surge. I agree with you that it's not really a good trade for a character that doesn't have Extra Attack, although I suppose someone who really likes their Channel Divinity or has some other non-spell ability and wants to be able to cast a spell, too, might benefit from it. It doesn't really synergize with them all that well. I'm not sure if you have a video on this already but one on level dips would be pretty cool.

[@PackTactics]

@@crimfan I was thinking about the 1st level dip as a video because something always important happen at 5th level but thats a problem thats slowly disappearing now anyways. I dont really have much to say and I'm out of touch. I don't want to do builds. I'm burnt out.

[@christianacquasanta1472]

That'd be more like a Fighter taking a dip into Cleric if you ask me. Could be fun

[@jaredcarter1165]

It may help some to think of it this way: the spell does some decent damage, with a very sizable chance of critting. Saving types only change the crit chance, and only by a few percent.

[@Magus_Union]

@BlackMage What he's implying is that "spells requiring a save that do half damage" means that the "crit" is the moment the creature FAILS the save, there-by taking the total volume of rolled damage once the spell is used. In this case, in the off-chance that the save is failed, the damage taken is equivalent to getting hit by a 'crit' from the target's perspective. It's an analogy about the maximum amount of damage that any target can suffer from an attack.

[@jaredcarter1165]

@BlackMage I’m not trying to say they do crit. I’m trying to phrase another way of thinking of the difference in half and full damage

[@CharlesChaldea]

I was just thinking of that! It's less like them saving makes it a FEEBLE hit so much as them failing makes it a much HARDER hit, which has a nice parallel with martials and their attack system since they can crit Well, maybe the two aren't EXACTLY parallel, but they look kind of similar, thinking of it this way. Either way, it's "normal damage" with a chance of "higher damage and maybe some extra effects", and I'm liking this now.

[@crimfan]

@BlackMage That's an interesting way to flip the interpretation around.

[@alanschaub147]

You have a talent for seeing through what is superficially irrelevant by focusing on the actual math. 👍🏻

[@PackTactics]

This is content I want but no one is doing it so I'm doing it. lol

[@alanschaub147]

@@PackTactics LOL! 👍🏻

[@PackTactics]

@@alanschaub147 Can you take over so I can just play dnd more instead? lol

[@XerkDaniels]

This channel allows me to be bad at math. Thank you.

[@PackTactics]

I want you to be good with the math! But I mean, if you know the jist of the truth behind the math then that's good enough, you know? We can be flexible with numbers and language.

[@robertcrane561]

I'm never missing a chance to get advantage! Enlightening video Kobold! Definitely makes me think about these spells in a better light.

[@PackTactics]

Optimisation has muddied the waters when it comes to AOE blast spells. I wanted to fix that. AOE blast is good but it depends on the spell ofc. Not exactly conservative but sometimes theres no need like for example you know this is the last fight of the day or you are fighting a boss or something. You know the context better than me there and then.

[@SamXala]

Nice stuff about AoE damage spells, I'm always looking for feats when it comes to ASI because it sounds more fun instead of a flat mental increase. Yeah I know, having more INT/CHA/WIS means that your saves and all that stuff is a little bit better, but a feat can do wonders to your character, even if its for a meme or thematic build.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Depending on your campaign. 9 out of 10 times, Feats are better... Especially when you have 6 players to ensure that curatives and party roles are ready in battle. Which is why the average stat character tends to do well at lv1 to lv15 rather than a glass cannon character. Although, I prefer Point Buy at 72x Standard Array instead of rolling out stats. There's no difference in doing either one outside of player preference.

[@Paul_Oz]

you hit the nail on the head, feats are more fun and that's why we are playing the game.

[@FlutesLoot]

In the first half of this video, I wasn't sure it was going to be useful. Just good to know. But pointing out how this affects a player's decision to take feats or stat boosts is VERY helpful in the context of half-on-save AOE. Thanks, Kobold!

[@godlessman123]

Speaking of aoe spells, i am surprised not to see Hunger of Hadar mentioned in any of your videos. I've played quite a bit of this spell and almost always pick it if i have a chance to. It kind of has a half on save and is a blind, darkness, and difficult terrain at the same time. Not to mention that the blinded counteracts the dis. adv. of the darkness when attacking people in the darkness. There is lots of synergies that your other party members and you can do with it, and more so if you get the invocation that allows you to see through darkness. I truly think you could get some free content showing this spell off and think the other wonderful people would love watching it! :) P.S. love ya vids

[@PackTactics]

I haven't developed an opinion on the spell itself yet. I've Never seen it cast before practically. On the surface it does look like a good spell for microwaving and microwaving spells are a big deal especially at end game. I will hold off on it for a while, I dont really like covering spells I've never seen cast before.

[@life-destiny1196]

It's a good spell with a couple issues: You sort of need a team built around being okay in magical darkness to make it work. If you don't, people are just gonna have to stand around and wait for things to walk out of the darkness. It does its damage slowly over time. Something like Fireball would solve a lot of the same problems much faster. Alternatively, Hypnotic Pattern, which is on the general warlock spell list unlike Fireball, can waste so many actions that the fight is already tipped in your favor, and it doesn't require nearly the same investment from the team as HOH. It doesn't upcast at all. Two levels later and you get Sickening Radiance, another powerful control spell with a big AOE and synergy with position-control effects such as Repelling Blast. So for a single-classed Warlock you're only getting a lot out of HOH for two levels. Granted if you plan on stopping at warlock 5 or 6 for some reason, you'll probably get more mileage out of it. HOH is not a bad spell by any means, it just has VERY stiff competition as a 3rd-level spell.

[@DrNeoKefkaPhD]

@@PackTactics I used it effectively as a 5th level warlock, I kept punting enemies back into the field with repelling blast and they needed to blindly wade back out on their turn while taking damage. The DM was very unhappy with it during an encounter where I had 3 hill giants largely locked down for the whole thing. Though, like Ken Klabnik says, it doesn't upcast so it loses out quickly to 4th level and above spells in terms of utility and damage. Also, Hunger of Hadar is specified to *not* be magical darkness but something like the void between stars where light just dies, not even devil's sight can see though it and it inflicts the actual blinded condition when you're in it. You can only properly target enemies in the field if they're partially sticking out (like the hill giants lol) or you're using some sort of blindsight, otherwise you're firing blindly. It's an odd spell as a warlock-exclusive that can't scale to take advantage of higher level pact slots (aberrant minds get it too but they've got plenty of toys so who cares). I would only use it as a higher level warlock if I had a pearl of power to get specifically 3rd level slots to enable using it. The other weird thing is that it does damage at both the beginning and end of enemy turns, so it will only do half damage if the enemy wanders out of the field and you have to wait for your turn to force them back in, but the beginning of turn damage has no save so it will always do 2d6 that way. Warlocks with a grappler friend that can hold enemies on the edge of the field will get a lot out of it

[@rafaellvanuci8274]

@@life-destiny1196 the team dosn't have to account for magical darkness at all, teh inner space of the spell can't be illuminated, period. it says nothing about creating/generating magical darkness, creatures inside of it are blinded(condition) but creatures with darkvision/truesight outside of the bubble can still see it, creatures with another "vision types" like tremor sense and blindsight can still "see" within their limits even inside the bubble.

[@DrNeoKefkaPhD]

It has come to my attention that Crawford has changed his mind on this point multiple times so I have to amend this comment and say the question of 'can you see through hunger of hadar from outside' actually has no clear answer if you're going at it from that angle. Personally I say no, that's what Darkness is for but you do you (or your DM does them as is applicable).

[@gabemagicmaster2179]

Just found your channel and I LOVE YOUR CONTENT! Math is so interesting and with my break from college coming up I really hope to do my own calculations following your example. Keep up the work man!

[@hella_lugosi]

So by this logic it makes more sense for a Cleric to take Warcaster or Resilient Con at level 4, because maintaining concentration on Bless/Spirit Guardians is more valuable than the extra Wisdom point.

[@PackTactics]

Absolutely. Then you're optimising more.

[@johncostello4565]

Resilient Con is my favorite feat for spell-casters.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

As an Eldritch Knight... I would choose Warcaster and avoid doing anything that would require concentration, like taking the Ready Action for any Spell.

[@AzraelThanatos]

A lot of it depends upon the campaign. If there are a lot of extraplanar creatures, you end up with a situation where the higher Wisdom is a better option because you may end up relying (quite a bit) on the save or fail situations as much as your concentration. Being able to banish a demon or something else might be the more important thing there than being able to do other things. Several adventures that I've played in shifted to a thing of dumping stuff to get the enemy to fail that roll more than other things while the rest of us hit the other enemies...and the banisher would take off and hide for the duration.

[@joshuawalsh3255]

WE GOT THE BYE-BYE BACK LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Ahem. Well, this explaiins why my Forge Cleric has been walking into every fight and single handedly winning it all, purely on the back of Spirit Guardians.

[@shakeelamlay130]

Was gonna ask for a fireball video but then the end of the video dashed my hopes

[@PackTactics]

I need xptolevel3 to cover that spell for me. He knows more then me about it.

[@taigerthetiger3468]

This is a big lore reveal Gator is a kobold but uses his druid powers to be a coco-loco all the time I love this channel's characters (Even if we only see 2 almost every time)

[@PackTactics]

Theres a lot of lore actually. Theres even Fanfic.

[@gahfwa3541]

This video is phenomenal! Props to you Mr. Tactics for plainly showcasing a huge fundamental concept behind the math of ttrpgs

[@cmckee42]

Agreed maxing wisdom ASAP is not optimal. Maxing concentration asap is optimal.

[@PyroGobbo]

The real danger is evasion. Always carry at least one spell with no dex save. Even if it kinda sucks.

[@darylchambers9138]

Interesting video! This makes me feel quite better with my current cleric character. I’m lvl 6 pallid elf with a 16 Wis and I took resilient CON at lvl 4 via feat. My concentration is quite difficult to break while having sprit guardians running. I’m debating now to just pick up another feat (warcaster?) and keep a 16 wis or go 18 via next ASI.

[@PackTactics]

So you took the most optimal move at 4th level and your con save is mostly covered throughout the game. I dont recommend securing it more, I mean, have you ever lost it? Do what you want though, you can afford mistakes, you can afford memes, you can afford utility, you can afford fun. The numbers say you're optimised.

[@darylchambers9138]

@@PackTactics Thank you for the feedback! I've yet to lose concentration on anything thus far. Keep up the great content. I really enjoy your videos!

[@seanjardine3128]

With this info It looks like its optimal to take resilient con and warcaster before asi Wis increase on a cleric. This exactly what I’ll be doing.

[@tanall5959]

Gator: "I stole your money!" Completely unrelated note: Pan-fried gator steak is GLORIOUS!

[@multivitaminsaft1997]

I like Gator. Wanna see more of him!

[@prosamis]

I love content like this Thank you for providing what others don't put the effort into giving

[@RashidMBey]

I would absolutely love your take on Monks, tbh. The class as a subject of design has been a hot debate in my groups recently, and I've certainly takes on the mechanics of it, but I've grown to appreciate your breakdowns, too.

[@PackTactics]

The numbers are cruel. I don't have a lot of good things to say. Treantmonk's video pretty much is on point but theres some details missed here and there. Stunning strike, I already covered stunning strike in my Entangle and web video, I dont remember what I said but the numbers are there and the context. Basically numbers wise, you do cantrip damage even spending resources and cant beat hex+EB at all. Its the only class in the game that really struggles with it. 27 dpr at end progression with fists if I remember right (thats 60% to it and ofc, decently optimised). Now there are cases like Gunk, that a monk with a gun. That preforms well but... Like all the other classes can just do it better like a Ranger or a fighter and well... You want to punch things as a monk, you know? Its not all doom and gloom though. Tier 1 Shadow monk is actually very strong due to pass without trace and it out preforms all the martials and Rangers but the sad thing is you are just a pass without trace bot at that point and as soon as 5th level swings around, then you're not special anymore. I might make a video where I go devils advocate for monk because I do think Monk point out the good things at least. Theres not many of them though, thats the problem.

[@RashidMBey]

@@PackTactics I would not only watch that, but share it to all of my friends in all of my TTRPG servers since, well, I had a lot of gripes about monk and I was surprised to find that it was, like, four of my friends' favorite class. Lmao I truly appreciate your breakdowns though! Scrumptious content. Nom nom nom.

[@PackTactics]

Let them enjoy Monk! I'm fine with that.

[@marmato9332]

@@PackTactics Do you think it's still that bad even with Tasha's buffs? Underpowered, sure, but that much? I'm curious.

[@PackTactics]

@@marmato9332 I disagree with Treantmonk about there being a viable Monk now. I believe Mercy isn't good enough even though it does beat the baseline. It simply needs more stuff. Did it buff Monk? Sure, but that wasn't much of a buff but then again, I also view the Ranger buff not much of a buff really and thats where people disagree with me but whatever. I don't know the solution to fixing a class or anything, I don't brew normally and when I do brew I brew to what my players want, you know? I don't care about game design or anything. I'm running a game to only 6 people, you know? But if I had to fix Monk at my table, I would have to make them a half caster with same progression as maybe a Ranger.

[@lance5691]

Really it depends on what you want for your character. For aoe the save doesn't matter that much, but for a spell like entangle you want every point you can get.

[@DrNeoKefkaPhD]

When Rime's Binding Ice was mentioned I was hoping that spells with rider effects only on failed saves, like Rime's speed drop, would get addressed. Maybe another video comparing Synaptic Static to Fireball since Static has a different damage type, a rider and a different save than fireball but they both have the same damage? So asks the kobold warlock, currently giving the fighter a fighting chance of avoiding a Balor's 6d8+8 longsword with a -1d6 to hit, reporting live from the top of a summoned beholderkin above the battlefield.

[@chrissss8658]

Second vid I've watched, n once more the bagpipes have me sold! You have my subscribe!

[@valory13]

I really like shatter it is probably my favorite low lvl dmg spell, can also to be used to shape the terrain a little, cause caveins and what not

[@taitaniagoatstusiii1709]

I'm gonna miss old gator... oh well, great channel

[@zerofang8812]

Gator why? Nice break down of the math it help make it easy to comprehend. Great video over all : )

[@DrApylon]

I very much like these videos because they arent filled with nonsense, the math is correct (most of the time barring minor errors) and they are easy enough to understand so I can reference them for a refresher or link them to other players who are newer and think the armchair reddit squads are always correct (Simulacrum and Magic Jar don't work the way reddit/Beyond forums think they do #reee). I agree about Con saves being a non-issue, most creatures just have high con scores (up to +6 in almost all cases) and lack proficiency in Con saves and those that are proficient are also proficient in Wisdom saves with both being usually equally high, a +6 save against DC 15 is still a 45% chance to fail more likely its like +3-4 which is a 60-55% chance to fail, against lvl 1 save DC, at lvl 8, the DC is 16-18, while the con saves, guess what, havent gone up beyond their starting point, the highest you can find outside of homebrews, NPCs with class levels and a couple of legendary creatures (like Androsphinxes), is like +10 or 11 (lowest CR for that is 13-14, so 5-6 CR ahead of the hypothetical party) AND they also had equally high Wisdom saves, its still a 25-35% chance to fail, which still, ISNT that bad, esp with multi-round effects like spirit guardians. Most of the time if you avoid Con save spells, you are avoiding a 5-10% higher save chance, that's not negligible, but it's also not that big AND you are losing out on a host of great effects from a bias based on realistically, a slightly less favorable coin flip (40-60% is basically a slightly more or less favorable coin flip)

[@PackTactics]

Its funny. I started making vids because I was angry at reddit. I tried with math with them for 2 years, down voted to oblivion every time. I said the same things over and over and over again. Didn't work. So instead of writing the samethings over and over again, I thought I would just record it. Its working lol.

[@DrApylon]

​@@PackTactics it's almost like nobody on reddit has actually played DnD 5e. People post spreadsheets of data with no actual relevance to what goes on inside the game and no understanding of what those numbers actually mean. If anyone thinks what Pack is putting out doesnt work in harder campaigns, I'm doing Tomb of Annihilation with a party of three (im the only caster), my GM has had to increase the difficultly three times and threw a vampire spellcaster at us at lvl 6, a CR15 monster, we won, easily, the data in these videos is the same data ive used to take a campaign known for being brutal and made it seem like your average DnD adventure clearing out goblins in a cave. The only thing not covered is tactical cantrip usage (Cantrips are my favorite things to use in DnD 5e in and out of combat, esp the ones that let me be creative and dont just add stuff/deal damage), but most players just need to learn the basic good stuff first, like reddit=bad habits; avoid. Keep up the great work, this is an excellent font of information and I will be sending players new to DnD 5e or DnD in general here.

[@PackTactics]

@@DrApylon I do believe they play the game but its just that... Idk. They understand an average of a dice, you know? But when it gets a little more complecated with crit chance and chance to hit and yada yada yada, they don't understand it and get intimidated and I understand that. People are afraid to ask questions or look stupid. Its just their response to stuff like that is so unreasonable and then people see the thumbs up and thumbs down and judge around that. The math guy has -5 dislikes, so hes clearly wrong. You know? So hopefully this will change now by me just showing the numbers and just talking about what it means where you can also hear my tone of voice. And as people get familiar with the formula and the numbers, that will change everyones language and understanding of the game. I do this out of love. Thats the most difficult thing to read when it comes to text though. Tone of voice. I write like an asshole normally but I mean well. Reddit people love this game, its clearly evident. So do I.

[@billwarburton8669]

@@PackTactics but Koboooooold! You are an asshole, also I stole more of your gold and used them to buy crocs! Now watch me run away and play two weapon fighting and Dual Wielder Ranger with hunter's mark and complain about a lack of synergy in the class abilities ;)

[@PackTactics]

@@billwarburton8669 I wear crocs in RL. :)

[@antongrigoryev6381]

Hey! Great part about ASI not mattering for "Half on a save" spells. But what about other things? Honestly, I had a thought several times that ability scores in general may be overrated. Does 10% to hit of your weapons you get from bringing your stat from 16 to 20 really matter? What about AoE "Save or Suck" spells like Web? How important is bringing your saves up for them? It would be really interesting to get a video like this. MAD builds are usually considered weak because they can't bring up their stats, but maybe it's not that big of a deal?

[@ChunkyTheClown]

MAD builds aren't inherently weak. It's all down to the tradeoffs you're calculating. It is true that, a good portion of the time, a combination of delaying key features and spreading your stats too thin make some of the more complex multiclasses suboptimal relative to other more highly specialized options, but this is no reason not to experiment with interesting combinations. The only thing you definitively lose with a MAD build is the nice neat 20 on your sheet, which is certainly satisfying, but not exactly a benefit in and of itself. What matters with a build is what it is capable of doing in actual gameplay, and if you can recoup your statistical losses effectively, the MAD build in question will clearly show itself to be worthwhile. This logic is effectively an extension of the reason Feats that offer unique and powerful effects are often valued more highly than an ABI.

[@crimfan]

It's not as big a deal as people think compared to many choices that are in the control of the party, such as buffs or working to give allies advantage. An 18 is solid for a character even at high level. A MAD type character like a heavy armor Paladin is getting most of their benefits from two stats, Str and Cha. There aren't enough points to max both stats, but a balanced 16/16 or 18/18 might actually be pretty solid. Obviously that depends a lot on the party composition and the abilities that the PC is making use of. A bard who wants to make heavy use of Bardic Inspiration needs a high Charisma to be able to be really free with it. Most Warlocks typically need to max it out because they can't afford to have many made saves and many of their abilities key off it.

[@Zertryx]

The game was intentionally designed with bounded accuracy in mind so that even a character with like all 12's and 14's could function well at end game. its why many players will choose feats over an asi bump as the extra features outweigh the 5% chance to hit. there are many ways to gain Advantage in the game which essentially negates your low ability scores.

[@saeedrazavi4428]

I think all spells should have at least a minor effect on a successful save to make it feel like you did something. You polymorphed an enemy instead of your ally? Not optimal but I can understand if you want to because it seems cool. If they succeed though, you've just done nothing with a 4th level slot and that feels bad. Now, if they succeeded but took 2d4 force damage as they resisted their body contorting, that wouldn't really be significant damage, but I think it would feel better than just expending a spell slot to do absolutely nothing

[@Specter053]

Then I think you will enjoy Pathfinder 2e. On spells that are save-or-suck, except on some rare occasions described by the spell, even if a target succeeds it takes a small effect. Fear, for example, fears for 1 round instead of 2 on a success.

[@crimfan]

I very much agree. Having a consolation prize would really benefit a lot of spells in two ways. One is that their failed save effect can be a bit less, which may help them be more balanced. The other is that the consolation prize means that players don't feel like their turns were wasted, just as you say. I like your Polymorph example, with some kind of minor magical backlash damage or a minor status effect. A good way to do it might be (spell level)d4 of some appropriate damage type, so for Polymorph it might be Force or, possibly even better, Necrotic. It's a dink but you don't feel like your spell was a total waste. 4d4's average is only 10, so it's not exactly a massive effect. Backlash damage can also make spells like Counterspell or Dispel Magic be more risky or potentially beneficial if you want to simulate a caster's duel. A number of spells already work this way, but making that a clear design feature of spells and abilities would really help.

[@Drekromancer]

@@crimfan Hard agree. It makes the casters feel more consistent, and I think that's important. I think it makes magic feel more dangerous, too - because even a being strong enough to resist a spell will suffer the power of the arcane.

[@saeedrazavi4428]

@@Specter053 lol anytime I suggest an improvement for 5e, my friend who loves PF2E excitedly tells me how pathfinder addresses my suggestion. I really aught to get around to trying it out

[@saeedrazavi4428]

@@crimfan it also makes legendary resistance feel less terrible. I understand the balance reason why an ancient red dragon should be able to automatically succeed against my hold monster a limited number of times, but there's nothing that feels more demoralizing, immersion-breaking, and agency-removing to me than being told that the dragon failed his save 🤩 but he chooses to succeed on it instead and nothing happens 🥺😨😰😓. At the very least, some consolation damage as the dragon "strains to break free of your binding arcana" would feel like there was some reason I just used a 5th level spell instead of casting ray of frost.

[@ComicaPaloozaStudios]

Something that I read in The Monsters Know What They're Doing by Keith Ammann is that he likes to use the Targets in Area section from the DMG (chapter 9, I think) as a baseline for the minimum amount of creatures you want to target for an AoE spell, opposed to just a consideration for Theater of the Mind.

[@arcanerecovery2567]

Thank you! I appreciate you (and others) doing the math on things like this so that I don't have to.

[@tarrasqueflask6567]

I like thinking about damage in minimums-maximums so seeing a video on "half on a save" makes me happy

[@Lukegunter19]

This is honestly so liberating. I’ve always struggled between wanting to take feats that are less than sub-optimal (looking at actor) and just taking an asi because it seemed so much better

[@gabrielrussell5531]

As always, assuming a 60% or less isn't great math. Assuming equal ability score and proficiency for both parties, a successful save is on an 8. That's a 65% chance of success, sure. But any smart caster tailors their spells to their target. Big bois get dex saves, dummies get wis saves, and squishies get con saves. A competent caster should have at least 2 on their list even if due to various limitations they can't include all 3. Except for high tier boss-monsters, most monsters aren't good at every single save. Par example the Gladiator is CR 5 with saves of Dex+5 Con+6 and Wis+1. A Light Cleric with +7/DC 15 could target them with a *Fireball* and they'll pass on a 10 (55% of the time), or they could use *Spirit Guardians* and they'll pass on a 14. (35% of the time.) That's a pretty wide gulf for a pretty normal enemy. It's your job as a caster to eyeball what spell will target their weak save.

[@seanhoedlmoser1739]

You deserve so many more subs

[@nikolageorgiev1487]

Outstanding video. Keep up the good work mate

[@hinamiravenroot7162]

Why is a Warlock the baseline for damage per turn?

[@life-destiny1196]

I miss everyone having advantage. Great video though. For the algorithm!

[@Dabedidabe]

I've wondered about this for loooong time, but never bothered to do the math. Thanks for letting me be lazy, while still knowing about this!

[@20100langlois]

This is basically applying the 20-80 rule. I love it, it frees up so many resources.

[@seacliff217]

6th Level Spirit Guardians = Basically Fireballing Every Round.

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

As a long time dm I have learned and codified how to use legendary resistance and basically you don’t use legendary resistance on a blast type spell that does half on a save unless you’re half health or lower. And you shouldn’t use your last legendary resistance on a spell that does half damage on a save unless not doing so actually kills you. If lightning bolts and spirit guardians can burn your legendary resistance you will die to a hold monster and you’ll still be bloodied by the time that happens since the majority of the damage the PCs threw at you went through if you don’t use those saves, by that same round in the fight you’ll be quarter health maybe, but there won’t be a hold monster! If you want to kill a dragon with a hold monster asap you actually got to throw some stuff it really wants to resist

[@Elipus22]

One of my favorite feats is telekinetic for a BONUS ACTION SAVE. One of my characters has a revenant-like gnome constantly trying to kill him, and this feat removes the legendary resistances he has nicely. He gets pushed to the ground, and my team can now go in for melee with advantage on all attacks, or he can legendary resist and use up precious recourses. The wording on the feat implies a difference between it and the Shove Action. A Shove Action replaces one weapon attack and is a contested roll. A Telekinetic Shove is a Bonus Action and has a DC for the target to roll against. This implies that you can now shove creatures, for a bonus action, of any size. DMs may rule otherwise, of course, but this means your wizard can knock prone a flying dragon, dealing fall damage, and then cast a spell. Dragon can use up to two Legendary Resistances in one turn if it so chooses!

[@theshadowbadger]

This might be your best video yet!

[@dragonhearthx8369]

Still want you to do a video on Melfs minute meteors

[@PackTactics]

Its a spell I find interesting but its not a good spell in my opinion. Wish it was non consentration or a low level spell.

[@dragonhearthx8369]

@@PackTactics 12d6 damage. Multiple saves. And a bonus action blast spell. And you have more control than fireball. You can have the same target make 2 saves per turn. For 2d6 on half for each. For 3 turns.

[@seanm1257]

I have found that the best way to get the full mileage with SG is to start with a Divine Soul Sorc, eventually multiclassing into Hexblade, (DS sorc 5/Hexblade 2-3/Sorc X). Startind sorc gets you CON proficiency, SG uses your CHA modifiers, and Favored by the Gods. Hexblade gets you Medium Armor, Shield prof and Shield spell. Pick up Warcaster too if you can. By 6th lvl, you can potentially have up to 19 + 5 AC (Half Plate at 14 DEX + sheild + Sheild spell). Just cast SG first, then find yourself in a good position, and use Dodge and cast Shield when you need it. Hell, with what you just explained about half on a save, it might me more beneficial to pump up your CON before topping of your CHA. Thoughts?

[@JazzJackrabbit]

This is why you should consider getting Resilient (Constitution) feat for your cleric ASAP. Once you have cast it, you dont want to lose it

[@CBruceNL]

The actual surprise in your voice when gator came out dressed 👏👏

[@potatoplunderer]

YO gator has some major drip now!

[@cjcomrie]

Wow. That plot twist. I like the new 'but kobold ' even if that pic was charming

[@imanevilpairofsocks]

I really hope the guy doing dnd next editions spells is like you

[@wolfVFV]

How does this apply to non damage spells(utility spells?) with saves? Like banishment. For these i would assume i want big wis. And the effect can be pretty good

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

If you didn't use a Bonus Action Spell during your turn... You could provoke the enemy's Opportunity Attack, cast Slivery Barb as a Reaction, then cast Banish with that reroll. Or, be lucky to let the enemy attack you during its turn in order to cast Slivery Bard. Then when your Reaction refreshes at the start of your turn. Repeat what I stated earlier. Thus, getting that reroll back to back in one turn at the cost of Reactions and maybe taking damage. I wouldn't do this as a full spell caster class. Since you are burning two leveled slots per turn. But it's great to ensure that Banish can hit.

[@SilverKarlov]

Hell yeah! War Caster on your clerics, let's go!

[@attackins1470]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for what you said about ASIs. I try to get people to understand that not having a 20 by 8th level is not at all a big deal, but it is so ingrained into the meta of the game that so many people lose out on really fun feats/multiclass because of it. I am currently in a game as a Warlock 3/Bard 3 for both RP and specific abilities, and I am finally about to take my first ASI. I am taking a half feat for both, and so my Cha will be 18 by 8th level. I have only rarely felt the lower casting stat, though it has never been a huge problem, and I am instead about to take cool feats to add to my character. I might not even see a 20 Cha until after 12th level, but I can guarantee my character will do just fine.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Echo Knight 10 Wizard 10 ... Would by my better version of the Eldritch Knight. Realistically though... It would be 5 / 5 give or take 5 extra levels at lv15 for the end of the campaign. I use point buy at 72x Standard Array. Then I use Normal Human for its +1 to all Stats in order to achieve 16/10 straight. Or, I do 14/10 straight for any other race... I rather have 0 than -1 modifier for my characters. The wrest is supplemented by my Feats, Items, Scrolls, and other players. Even though lv1 characters can die to one Boar with relative ease.

[@starpower1884]

Very helpful video! I don't even play D&D or know anything about it besides that it's popular and people like it but the video kept my attention so i couldn't click off.

[@Greywander87]

In a nutshell, if we expect a creature to save about half the time, then the expected damage output is about half the average damage roll. If the spell is save for half damage, then the expected damage jumps to about 3/4th the average damage roll, which is a 50% increase. And the thing is, the difference between the average outcome (75% average damage roll) and the worst outcome (50% average damage roll) isn't as great as it first appears. Sure, half damage is worse than full damage, but you never expect enemies to fail saves 100% of the time.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Any damage is good damage unless you're trying to be tactical or stylish.

[@Daemonzword]

A good way around fireball’s overpowering damage is to add reasons why it can’t be used. Never use a fireball near possible gas, especially during a rescue. As a dm, add loot that can be destroyed if hit by fire. If you’re trying to recover a map, burning the area or flooding it might destroy the reason for your party to be there in the first place. I always add secondary methods, but they can add a lot of work. Of course, fireballing too close to civvies you are trying to rescue….. that’s harder to fix.

[@talesoftableiii1584]

I play an eldritch knight with embarisingly low stats, and for their spells I have been intentionally avoiding anything including AOE that involves a save. This really puts that character's ability to use 1/2 damage AOEs in a new light. After doing calcs the average damage is only 1 lower thank if my character had a good int. Thank you, this definitally puts a lot more freedom into how I build and play the character!

[@89Eldin]

Honestly, awesome job with all of this! I've noticed after a few years of playing that a 16 is honestly the highest number you "need" in 5e for stats. Now I'm just really happy that there's math that actually backs this up!

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Character at lv1 - Point Buy 72x Standard Array Eldritch Knight + Normal Human 15 + 1 ... Con/Str/Dex 9 + 1 ... Int/Wis/Chr Non Normal Human 14 ... Con/Str/Dex 10 ... Int/Wis/Chr If you don't want the negative modifier of -1 on your Save Throws and on your Skill Checks/Stat Block.

[@coreyjakob2205]

I like the math you did, but one thing to keep in account for your original save or half damage calculation, assuming a monstrosity with an absurd save, is that Natural 1's on saves are not automatic failures. Theoretically you can pass with a natural 1 on a save so long as your bonus is high enough to meet or exceed the DC. A player with a DC 13 wis save for spirit guardians, versus a monster with a +12 wis save, means that even on a natural 1 the monster will pass, as natural 1's and natural 20's only apply to attack rolls and death saving throws in 5e

[@Godzillawolf1]

I find Wither and Bloom is especially good for this, as not only does it do decent damage with the AOE thing mentioned here in effect despite being a Con save, it also has a secondary effect that almost always makes it worth using if you have a tank fighting the enemy and taking a lot of damage. So it's even more worth using.

[@rachdarastrix5251]

Well would you look at that, Gator has been promoted.

[@Moleje1337]

I love Gator.

[@ironbeard2918]

I want the old Gator pick back!

[@hindumuninc]

I haven't done any math on it to confirm this but I believe that half on a save means that arguably Constitution is the most important stat for Druids because so many of their spells are concentration and AOE with half on a save that means maintaining concentration to keep dealing damage likely pays off more than a higher DC, especially on bigger fights that last more than a couple of rounds. Even with a high DC a creature can still just dumb luck roll high and save, but if you lose concentration on a spell you have, at least, got less "bang for your spell slot" if not essentially wasted it. So having advantage on concentration and a high con mod will allow you to keep damage going for much longer and guarantee damage every single round, unlike martial classes who can still miss their attacks because of a bad roll no matter how high their modifiers are (nat ones always miss). I am sadly a forever DM who hasn't been able to test this with a PC in game yet, but I'm considering just throwing some of my built PCs at my players in my next campaign.

[@sayntfuu]

Love me some crunchy analysis.

[@Gafizal1]

So, you're correct for save for half on AOE. However, this does not address save for no effect ( like all clerical cantrips), like command, like suggestion, ...and so on... Further, as you point out these spells don't scale as well as the gab does widen. Lastly, why is it good to spend a 3rd level slot to get damage that warlocks get with a 1st level slot + cantrip ? Is blasting really a good way to spend higher level slots, and aren't there other reasons (as above) to improve the casting ability score?

[@marmato9332]

This totally changed my POV on ASIs, I really liked the video. Still people, *DO NOT* misunderstand the Kobold. If you rely more on Spells requiring Spell Attacks than Spells requiring Half on Save Saving Throws, or just if you use other spells that are Save or Suck, yadda yadda, *DO NOT* leave your Spellcasting Stat at 16 or whatever the number because the funny internet lizardman told you to do so. The Spellcasting Modifier is still fundamental for most classes, and unless you are playing a build made specifically to blast dudes with Save or Half Spells, you still need it. Not that that type of build is niche, but not every single spellcaster is focused on dealing big AOE damage, and not all in the same way. This just shows that different builds need to invest in different Stats even if we consider ASIs to be standard for every class.

[@marmato9332]

*As in, we consider optimal ASI advancement being more or less the same for each PC of a same class, but there is in fact a huge disparity, not only for casual customizability, but also for actual optimization.

[@derrickjohnson3574]

Crocodile be looking fresh.

[@wilsonreyes124]

Quick question: as a DM I tend not to use legendary resistance to my players as it tends to screw up good planning from the party. And being SOL is pretty rough against legendary creatures. If you're implying that legendary resistance only applies to the first 3 saves and not like the metagaming-like DM cruelty that I think it is? Could you give your input on this?

[@austinbundy3167]

How would you include Evasion and similar abilities? Would that cause a significant incentive to not use Dex saves?

[@Centaur255]

Very interesting video - does the math change if you have a sorcerer using metamagic to reroll low damage rolls? I feel like the variance will go up more if the average roll is above average than if it's a straight baseline for damage, but in the abstract can't figure out what the math would be for that. Perhaps a follow-up video?

[@chrisvossler8795]

And suddenly I have a spell to suggest to the cleric in one game I'm playing, who only has +2 or so in her WIS (at level 9).

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I think Cleric is a special case. With other casters you are going to be relying on a lot more all-or-nothing spells where the importance of the saving throw becomes a lot more dramatic. With Cleric your best spell options are largely 1/2 damage on a save (and with SG in particular, since the movement penalty isn't affected by the save) and a bunch of spells that aren't based on your spellcasting modifier at all.

[@zenpaulpacheco2607]

Sunburst a room, blinded most of the creatures that lived. Flashbang out.

[@Capt.Fail.]

I don’t disagree with anything stated in the video, but I guess one concern would be if you’re casting enough of these spells for the average result to really bear out. I would think probably not, or at least, not if you’re playing optimally, since there are just better spells and blasts eat your spells too quickly. In that sense, if you’re only casting these a couple times per day, the average is less relevant, and the difference between saving and not saving is more relevant; in your one casting of this spell, if the creatures save, your damage decreases significantly.

[@PackTactics]

Sometimes theres no need to be conservative with slots like for example the last fight of the day. You usually know the context of that. Then theres the obvious a straight fireball just solves in one move. Sometimes that happens, you might as well do it, right?

[@prosamis]

Question: should I have multiple aoe damaging spells or is it fine to just upcast whatever one I chose? Does evasion being a thing make non dex save aoe spells matter a bit more?

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

Where did you find con save as 55%? The internet keeps spewing that monks only stun 35% of the time, but they avoid magic resistance and their primary modifiers aren’t going to be 4 behind a primary score at the same level? Iv Even seen such imperial data suggesting con saves are somewhere between 35%-45% 55% seems like a lot more than it is I’m just curious where you get the numbers for likelihood of attacks and saves

[@tdawry]

Really enjoy this series (and miss the old "but kobold!!!"). I don't know if you're interested in statistics beyond DND, but you'd do great with R.

[@smile-tl9in]

in practice because of bounded accuracy and the minimum stat requirement being 13 in the casting stat you will never fall under a 45% chance of failing the save. and most casters have at least a 16. so 55% magic resistance would square this for 20% of failing the save with a 13, and about 30% with a 16

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

50% is even generous. Iv looked into stunning strike in particular and people will point you to critical role stats where Beau used stunning strike hundreads of times but it only works 1/3rd of he time. 35%. And that’s with circumnavigating magic resistance and a good stat roll where her wisdom was always between 1 and 2 modifiers lower than her primary and a magic item that improves her wisdom if we assumed a primary score BUT magic resistance we can expect 35-45% and on MAD classes 25-35% So for a non Gish we can probably assume a 40% chance to FAIL. Although comparing 40% to 60% when it only buys you HALF of the damage is still small. Comparing shatter to aganazar’s scorcher that’s 1.35 dpr per target with the difference between a 40% and a 60% chance to fail. That’s hardly important. Although a CC effect with a 40% chance to succeed isn’t worth casting unless it doesn’t take your concentration a half damage spell like shatter is barely worse than the dex based ones of the same damage and the shape of the AOE and the damage type will be the real tiebreaker. Besides Scorcher being on a similar aoe (30ft line you can angle vs 10ft sphere) most wizards prefer shatter to help diversify their damage types since their level 3 aoe spell is probably fireball

[@LeLa_Lu]

I find my opinions to be revised

[@Doncergio]

Why are you taking 0.60 as succes rate for both 20 and 16 wis. Would 20 wis not have a higher chance of succeeding? Did I miss something?

[@RaethFennec]

Gator looks great!

[@plasticsword2]

clerics want higher wisdom because its also the amount of spells they can prepare per day and cleric has base access to strong crowd control spells that are save or complete fail like hold person. and, it's also your to-hit for spiritual weapon. realistically, people should not be building characters with complete blasting in mind. so, i'd have to disagree that spellcasters dont need to ASI to max / get 20 in spellcasting mod. they do with some niche cases aside. and, some stats -- like wisdom -- are too good to ignore thanks to wisdom being one of the best stats in the game and also wisdom-effecting spells being absolutely brutal ... like hold person. ive also been in far too many cases of people living with 1-3HP and doing something brutal to dismiss even the most minimal of damage increases in 5e. but thats more personal

[@felipedobbs4770]

So, what should a cleric do on ASI? Str for a melee one, feats? What do you guys suggest?

[@SilasC]

IF the missing DPR is (13.5*(.05+0.5*(1-.05))) and the hitting the DPR is (13.5*(.60+0.5*(1-.60))) - what would be the correct DPR for MissingORHitting (I know the first one is for an enemy that just fail with 5% and the second is with 60% -- but I think these two are not considering the damage when you do the opposite -- maybe I just got lost in the calculus

[@dittmar104]

So blasters are less dependent on their spell casting mod then control casters. It opens up the question of is control even viable when support and blasters don’t need max stats. There are plenty of support/utility spells that don’t use your mods like bless, enlarge, fly, shield, greater invisibility, plant growth, sleep. That your casting stat only really matters for attack catrips and control spells like counter spell banishment and suggestions. Makes me wonder how well a Divine soul sorcerer could do with a neutral or +1 in cha with a focus on Twinning buffs, save less debuffs and half save spells. You take no penalty to prepared spells since charisma doesn’t effect your known spells.

[@smile-tl9in]

so for a cleric, increasing concentration is better than increasing the DC ?