What Computer Games Get "Wrong" about War

What computer games get "wrong" about war.
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Tessin, Georg: Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945. Band 2.
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Song: Ethan Meixsell - Demilitarized Zone

[@ViperGTS737]

Hitlers biggest mistake, was he didnt quicksave before Barbarossa

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

:D I do and not just a quick save :)

[@ViperGTS737]

like a good field marshal

[@deltadacosta2711]

Have you ever played Arma 3 a mil sim that gets pretty realistic so far the only thing missing from arma 3 is moral for the friendly and enemy troops. In the Main story enemy units only repsones to moral is running away and the friendly troops never usually lose moral the game forces you to keep push in unlike in the real world where there are no restarts to battles but never the less Arma comes real close and along with Titan Im

[@user-pl7kf7py7s]

Russia is initially not passable location. This is a bug or feature - call it what you want.

[@themk4982]

It was only after he lost and it reloaded he saw his last save was during the invasion of France, he then rage quit.

[@nattygsbord]

A good General always saves the game before an important battle.

[@rrafw]

kinda cheating, but agreed

[@axelandersson6314]

nattygsbord Unless you're going for achievements, in which case you need ironman mode. Hitler's achievement run went really bad so he rage quitted with a pistol.

[@eldritchsun40]

Yep, or when you start seeing an influx of Zulu impis at your border..

[@fieldmarshaldoge7598]

I agree lel xD

[@Phazon_Storm]

XCOM in a nutshell.

[@mortache]

Real warfare is "work", but games are meant to be the opposite Unless its War Thunder

[@vojtechurbanec9886]

That hits hard

[@sirshnitz2335]

This guy should do a vidieo on war thunder, its nessessary at this point

[@cabnbeeschurgr6440]

Or logis/heli pilots on Squad

[@gleqy]

what about HOI4

[@El_Presidente_5337]

@@gleqy Hoi4 is a cakewalk. War Thunder is psychological torture.

[@MajesticDemonLord]

I remember an interview from desert Storm by a pilot about flying combat: its 10 hours total boredom and 10 minutes total terror.

[@Seb-Storm]

To begin, desert storm only lasted a few days. While desert shield lasted a lot longer and had more action situations yet people only talk about desert storm because that was when US made the assault attack

[@charloteauxvalerian3875]

Many soldier will tell you that about war. But at the same times, many soldier "enjoyed" the combat in strange way by the game of power of destruction it gave them, and by the fact that sometimes, they are aimed by their ennemy, and get the opportunity to strike revenge immediatly after that...

[@talltroll7092]

@@charloteauxvalerian3875 "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

[@charloteauxvalerian3875]

@@talltroll7092 Yeah, exactly that.

[@6idangle]

Charloteaux Valérian I think what people like about military is the communal sense of a shared goal, it’s the same reason why sports teams become so close. There is evidence of this notion as well. Londoners were happier during the battle of London than any other time because of this phenomenon. War just harnesses this propensity.

[@JimFortune]

We did a miniatures battle where none of the commanders were allowed to see the actual battlefield, and had to issue written orders to their subordinates based on inaccurate maps. New intelligence came to the commanders via written messages that sometimes didn't make it to their intended recipient. It was the closest I ever saw to real fog of war!

[@paaatreeeck]

sounds very interesting

[@JimFortune]

paaatreeeck It was glorious chaos! It made me suspicious of the way most gaming gives near omniscience to the players.

[@paaatreeeck]

Jim Fortune i'm curious, which miniatures did you use? I do casually play a little 40k, but that wouldn't really feel quite right for this type of thing. good ol plastic soldiers maybe?

[@JimFortune]

paaatreeeck This was 'way back in the days before lead figures were deemed unsuitable because children might eat them. As if the greatest danger to a child who ate something their father spent a hundred hours researching, locating, buying, cleaning, painting and basing was the metallic lead that would mostly continue on through the system. If I remember right they were 15mm US Civil War. It was at an HMGS conference back in the '80s?

[@paaatreeeck]

wow nice

[@82dorrin]

A conversation between two friends of mine, one of whom is an Afghanistan veteran. Friend 1: Are there any war video games that are realistic? Veteran friend: Depends. Is there one where you stand around for hours in blistering heat making crude jokes about each other's d^cks? Friend 1: Umm... nope. Veteran friend: Then no.

[@comradestinger]

Arma.

[@bucketbuoyancy235]

I second that opinion ^ Hopefully the veteran will at least say “eh, close enough”

[@picoherbie9987]

So on the nose

[@LegioXXI]

"Hell let lose" actually found a good middle ground. There are moments where you sit with your MG42 in some bushes for 1 hour and nothing happens, but you still have to hold the position if the enemy tries to attack there.

[@nepnepguythegreatestofall6032]

We all know it's Holdfast

[@HebaruSan]

"Don't believe me? Ask Hitler." My new all purpose response to anything.

[@cendiusmaximus]

nice one man

[@mihajlo961x]

Yes, but what would Hipster Hitler say?

[@Shadow-sq2yj]

@@mihajlo961x *takes out a pistol* want to find out?

[@gaminglichgamer4035]

"She said you had a 2mm defeater." "No I don't and she didn't say that." "Don't believe me? Ask Hitler."

[@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870]

There is also an important misinterpretation of what is a soldier. In most games what we see are warriors, with little coordination, lots of bloodlust and lots of badass. Soldiers on the other hand want to be as far away as possible from the fighting, follow a rigid command structure and only do what they must do.

[@mattjk5299]

Humans, generally, do not want to be hurt or die. Even the bravest human has a strong sense of self preservation. The most elite fighters more than many - the only way to become an experienced fighter is to not be severely maimed or killed, of course.

[@jatzi1526]

@@mattjk5299 The most elite learn early on-don't be a hero. That gets you killed real quick.

[@jetstreak2786]

Gauging eliteness in terms of honours, that's not the case. The regular soldier preserves himself sure, but elite soldiers often prioritise efficiently completing the mission and rescuing comrades over their personal safety. That's what makes their feats so notable. Of course, immense skill is required for this in addition to courage.

[@Fishisepicpog]

In steel division, I always get frustrated at my soldiers when they get pinned down. The thing I never see is that they probably don't want to get hurt or killed. When a 10 man squad gets shot at by a machine gun in the open and 1 guy dies, the entire squad throws themselves on the ground and refuse to move to not get killed. This is very frustrating, but in the end it was my mistake. It was the commanders mistake that led to them getting pinned down. You can't get frustrated at your soldiers for taking cover when they are being shot at

[@jatzi1526]

@@jetstreak2786 Priortizing the mission and rescuing comrades doesn't mean you have to be a hero. Heroes are the ppl that charge machine gun nests or jump.on grenades. They die. Sometimes it's necessary but they drill it into your head in basic. Don't be a hero. Also the mission always comes first. Rescuing comrades is usually the last thing you do, that's important because many soldiers, again try to be heroes, and save their buddies and end up getting shot just like the ppl they're trying to save

[@barryalexander2909]

Because my 11 yo son would want to play a strategy game called 'Mobile Bath and Laundry Unit Commander - combating lice on OstFront'

[@stephanbrunker]

Don't forget the "changing socks" decree in Vietnam ...

[@wbertie2604]

You need the Milo Minderbinder expansion.

[@iangerahty3422]

Hell hath no fury like a Bath Platoon scorned‼️😱😱😱

[@Neion8]

'Okay, so we're gonna go into combat!' 'Finally!' 'So, spend the next hour disassembling, cleaning and oiling your gun so it doesn't start to corrode or jam in the wet weather, then polish your boots with wax so the water doesn't seep into your shoes and then catch whatever sleep you can before packing up our camp, because you might not have time to sleep for the next few days' 'Oh...'

[@mepipe7705]

@@Neion8 sounds like a nice tutorial mission

[@jancz357]

wait are you saying that soldiers didn't regenerate their health after being wounded? what sorcery is this?

[@Red-wb2ey]

Next thing they're going to is that the soldiers didn't get a health buff whenever their commander yelled at them.

[@darthbob25]

Clearly he just hasn't heard of the miracle drug morphine

[@grizzlyowlbear3538]

And they didn't have a reloading automatic reflex! :0

[@Tortee2]

Don’t forget about hit markers

[@fatherofdragons5477]

Wolverine... Duh....

[@cyberus1438]

There’s a game called radio commander that touches on real life fog of war, and I think could be expanded on. In this game, you manage Vietnam battles with only a map and a radio. And the game does not track units for you you have to do that yourself

[@alexanderflemming6788]

I was thinking of that game and forgot the name thanks for reminding me.

[@TesseraktGaming]

There's another game with the exact same premise except it's WWII, it's called Radio General. Different developers, surprisingly.

[@cyberus1438]

@@TesseraktGaming it’s for sure a genre of games that I feel is underdeveloped.

[@brooksroth345]

Too difficult for game players they want easy.

[@xo_ectophylla_alba_xo]

Imagine being paid a military wage to do work that’s no easier than corporate, but 100x more stressful with lives on the line. And not getting a restart if you make a mistake.

[@vivianamendoza1140]

What is left out is that getting shot at or almost getting burned to a crisp is terrifying. Having your friends die all around you is also incredibly traumatic. No one wets their pants when playing computer games (or at least almost no one), but it is really really common in combat.

[@Neion8]

Tbf, at least the total war games have moral indicators - not exactly a player experience, but the army absolutely will react if they've just seen 20 people mowed down by a shrapnel shell or find themselves encircled by enemies. A commander in TW games who does not respect the experiences/lives of their troops will find themselves without any to command (after they rout) which is much like real life - though without the corresponding guilt/horror/legal investigations that follow irl. Obviously that's an RTS/Grand strategy game not an FPS where the lack of real gore/horror is a balm to whatever innocence the player might still hold, but at least it's a game that recognises that fighting is scary.

[@lordomega9959]

Red orchestra makes things scary

[@roblangada4516]

With as good as the sound design in games like Squad are getting, it's getting a lot scarier than it used to be. If you have a good pair of headphones those shots and explosions sound very real. Obviously it doesn't compare to the real thing though. Kind of hard to simulate horrors like the smell of burning human flesh.

[@joshuaortiz2031]

as virtual reality improves they should make an FPS where you wear a body harness that shocks you with 10,000 volts if you die in game. Lets see how much people recklessly run and gun like all those kids playing call of duty if the penalty for being hit is collapsing to the ground and pissing/ shitting yourself lol.

[@brooksroth345]

Ignorance is bliss

[@tybushnell9819]

"Schrodingers Kraut" is by far the funniest icon you've used yet.

[@jasonallen1712]

William Smith I laughed out loud.

[@aquila4460]

Until the damn radio works again the frontline has held and was overun. At the same time.

[@snubbelbuff1471]

+

[@aleksandrmikhail3803]

i got most loled by that icon as far as i follow this channel XD

[@jeppenielsen6942]

k

[@killamonjaromon]

In real life you can lose contact with your own troops, in Age of Empires you can send random wild sheep off on their own to scout the surrounding area of your base

[@looinrims]

Sheep op plz nerf visual range

[@nanohana2973]

Commander: Did you find the enemy base? Sheep: I walked through the front gate and they didn't care, sending coordinates now.

[@gfcmoto4843]

ARMA players: *Pulls out 3 keyboards* "You under estimate my realisim!"

[@june_could]

The Arma series does a pretty good job of presenting these concepts pretty realistically, especially with added mods, even though its definitely an outlier among other military games

[@some_guy9347]

I knew someone would bring up ARMA sooner or later!

[@sarminder4357]

True. I do wish the future signelplayer campaigns would take more of the non-combat scenarios and scenes into element, instead of focusing on combat alone. Just one quick scenario where you have to do the logistics would be a nice touch.

[@markpetersen1738]

Yeah some mods even make it so you have to do the actual math for artillery. So it can be difficult for a spotter to give accurate information if there's no distinct landmarks around

[@icii0i40]

@@some_guy9347 the comment was 3 years ago

[@averagebohemian5791]

Because its made by Bohemians 🇨🇿🇨🇿🇨🇿🇨🇿🇨🇿🇨🇿🇨🇿🇨🇿🇨🇿

[@harunsuaidi7349]

"Learning in its natural form is often fun, although many of us has forgotten this to visiting the wrong schools for too long." You're absolutely right, sir!

[@Amadeus8484]

"We're surrounded!" "That's okay! We just need a few Factories and we will churn out Tanks in no time!" "How long will it take to make each Tank?" "40 seconds each! 32 seconds with upgrades!"

[@Mitch2009]

I particularly like your "hidden" sense of humor...just about died laughing when I saw "Schrödinger's Kraut" as one of the symbols in the fog of war section :) Your videos are outstanding -- keep up the great work!

[@fkerpants]

"Blind as Fuck" inside a tank - killed me.

[@leafboy3967]

subtle humor is the best humor

[@boxcarz]

And the occasional sovietwomble icon in his other videos, usually in reference to incompetence of some form...

[@Mygg_Jeager]

I came here looking for these 2 comments lol. This is the PROPER utilization of visual aids in a spoken presentation, not walls and walls of text lol.

[@lc1138]

Forgive my lack of deutsch language : what does Kraut mean ? (I laughed anyway. Any attempt of humor implying Schrödinger's cat or heavy concepts like this, has great chances to get me)

[@FXTRT-ec9lz]

Physical injuries, emotional pain, lack of sleep, weapon malfunctions, insufficient food/water, heart wrenching terror and mind numbing boredom are HUGE factors that will most likely (hopefully) make any game totally impossible to simulate. You'd meed to go down to your local Army recruiters office for that.

[@matheusmilane8305]

Exactly. And PTSD after a certain amount of time played. Can you imagine having to take amphetamines to start a match of Enlisted, Hell Let Loose or something?

[@FXTRT-ec9lz]

@@matheusmilane8305 Thats one thing I never considered. The game itself causing PTSD. The way some people take winning and losing SO seriously can definitely become a serious issue for people.

[@derickgabrillo1579]

"Many virtual men died to give you this message"

[@fkerpants]

Took me too long to get that message.

[@ileryon4019]

RIP 100 points spent on tank.

[@tbotalpha8133]

F

[@fulcrum2951]

F

[@otherpatrickgill]

do you know how long it took me to pause the video and find the exact 8:11 in order to see what nefarious message he was embedding in our minds?

[@ldwithrow08]

One of the things that makes games unrealistic is the time factor: the sheer amount of time it takes to maneuver troops in the field. Engaging an enemy 500 yards away can take hours to set up and days to execute.

[@sosig6445]

But it HAS to be sped up for the sake of playabality, it's usally done by stating that 10 in game seconds = 1 IRL second or whatever

[@richmeisterradio]

Play squad, its about as realistic as you can get in that respect.

[@TehIdiotOne]

@@richmeisterradio I suppose Squad is relatively realistic in the tactical sense, but it still has a long way to go if it wants to be truly realistic. But i suppose that isn't really the goal either. It does a god job of compomising between enjoyable gameplay and being semi realistic.

[@richmeisterradio]

@@TehIdiotOne what would you define as realistic? Because in terms of accurately depicting a modern battlefield squad is about as close as it gets. With v12 there is now a wounding system, vehicles now have engines and modules. If you know a game that does it better that isnt ARMA, let me know.

[@danieldkland]

@@richmeisterradio Whilst the combat part is pretty realistic, the rest is not, simply because it's a game. You don't have to drive for several hours to get to the location of the battle, or wait for ages till you get an order to move up by 10 meters. Real war isn't fun, so don't make it too real. Pretty much what Hesket said.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

Uncertainty? Imagine a game where, at the end, you were left wondering whether you had actually won or not. It would be like reading a Philip K Dick short story.

[@worlore1651]

Foxhole is a game "top down not first person" where everyone plays on one server for one of two teams who fight 24/7. Some players are behind the frontline mining resources, building defences, making ammo and weapons and using vehicles to take it out to the front where people are constantly fighting. However combat is barely accurate due to top down view. Another game that is better combat but less logistics is squad. In squad you have squads of 9 which can be rifleman, sl, ftl, automatic rifleman, light or heavy anti tank. Battles usually last an hour or so where in foxhole a war can go on for over a month

[@romanrat5613]

Even still, those games are meant to be fun

[@brooksroth345]

I would like to take video gamers out onto the woods for days with little food or water with 50lbs of equipment on a long march on a cold rainy day then dig a foxhole. That's war. I did this all the time when I was in. Not fun.

[@YerryXander]

Yeah but there is still gameplay elements like teleportation, global chat, AI, technology points, building, no equipment durability and despawning

[@antekglognut]

I knew someone was going to mention this

[@worlore1651]

@@romanrat5613 where did i say it was perfectly accurate to real life? Its just better than call of duty

[@Marticulated]

One game series that does "fog of war" quite well is Combat Mission. Basically, in the higher difficulties, you must always maintain the chain of command between your units, so the squad leaders stay in contact with the platoon HQ, platoon to company, and so on. This can be line of sight for hand signals, speaking/shouting range, radio contact etc. If the chain is broken, you will lose command and even sight on the smaller part of the chain until you re-establish contact. The chain of command also works for spotting enemy units, so if your front line scout spots an enemy tank, the game first has to simulate that information being passed back up through the chain of command for the rest of your units to be able to see it as well, and that information often gets distorted the further it has to travel. Eg, scout sees a light armoured car, passes info back to his platoon, by the time 2nd platoon hears about this they think its a heavy tank that is 300m away from the actual position, and they would continue to think that until either better links in the chain are established (eg radio contact instead of vague hand signals) or they move up and get line of sight of the enemy themselves.

[@epicflamo1368]

I mentioned CM myself in another comment, but not in this detail. I only wish the graphics were a little prettier and the soldiers (in particular snipers) could actually hit their targets at (relatively) short ranges.

[@Filion91]

Oh believe me, the soldiers in Combat Mission can be quite accurate.

[@DeniatitadenCompostela]

@@epicflamo1368 you must look at their experience, veterans and above are good at spotting. A green sniper needs a seasoned soldier nearby.

[@duggeeo4147]

Not quite as hardcore as cm but graviteam tactics series is pretty good too

[@Rubashow]

I'm not sure ... are you actually insinuating that World of Tanks isn't totally realistic?

[@javierguillen1613]

Rubashow world of tanks is as realistic as call of duty multiplayer

[@edwarddundon-smith9059]

+Javi Guillén now now dont go crazy xD

[@XxHiiaMaFrOGxX]

War Thunder is better.

[@javierguillen1613]

Edward Dundoned smith lmao it's true, I've seen videos were jagdpanzers IV were rolling at 70 km/h and shit like that

[@javierguillen1613]

Edward Dundoned smith and a lot of tanks in the game doesn't even exist

[@YourFriendKrea]

There’s a game called ‘Radio General’ which does a pretty good job at the losing contact thing. You need to check in with the u it on the radio and then move a counter on a map to show where they are, same goes for enemy’s units. Not exactly a contact loss, but closest I’ve found. Imperator rome also has some nice loyalty mechanics, so an army might not follow your orders.

[@alexanderbrady5486]

There are actually two such games, "Radio General" and "Radio Commander." Both are on Steam, and came out within a year of each other. Tim Stone on RPS reviewed both when they came out, and they are quite similar.

[@jeffbenton6183]

I was thinking about a "loyalty" feature (I haven't played Imperator Rome) when he was talking about that, but something else crossed my mind. It's not just loyalty, it's also unit autonomy (this has something to do with the whole "fog of war" thing - if you can't lose contact with your own forces, then there's no point in exploring this further). Mid-level commanders often interpret orders flexibly, or think they know a better way to secure the objective the higher-up outlined than what was expressly told to them. In some armies, this can even be encouraged sometimes. In WWII, the Americans and (early in the war) the Germans encouraged their officers to think (somewhat) independently of their superiors. Some of Germany's early successes were due to the fact that some clever general made a bold movement that the C-in-C did not order them to do. Officers were only punished for this behavior if it went badly - if it went well, they were rewarded. The general thinking was that High Command was to detail general objectives, lower-ranking generals and senior officers were to figure out how best to carry it out. Of course, I can think of several instances in the US Civil War were officers having *too* much autonomy went awry. For instance, Union Gen. Daniel Sickles' "repositioning" during the Battle of Gettysburg cost his Corps dearly and would've been catastrophic for the entire Army of the Potomac if it weren't for his superior, Gen. Meade recognizing the blunder in the nick of time and sending his reserves to plug up the gap that was created. (Speaking of Gettysburg, some fault Confederate Gen. Ewell for not carrying out Gen. Lee's orders on the first day quite as aggressively as Gen. Jackson - hypothetically - would have. Others fault Lee for making so many of his orders so vague in the first place. I need to do more research on that one.) In any case the "loyalty" feature certainly solves the problem of players assuming that dictators are more efficient than they actually are. Other aspects of real-life *not* complete control probably would need smarter AI (and that's without even getting into simple miscommunications which are going to be hard to simulate in a productive manner)

[@YourFriendKrea]

@@jeffbenton6183 can’t remember what game specifically, but you can give the AI control (full control) and in imperator loyalty means control. If a general is disloyal you lose your army pretty much. But yeah, German panzer independence lead to the ghost division… Finding the perfect game would be a dream… The Napoleonic Wars were also a pretty good example of the benefits of free thinking commands (if I remember correctly) but of course, radios weren’t a thing.

[@Tylerius87]

the "no delegation" issue has always been the biggest for me, units sitting right next to a battle idle, not defending themselves from being attacked etc is so immersion killing, god games with a strategy element (black and white, dungeon keeper) usually do a good job on that. i feel like hearts of iron and company of heroes are the best war games on each end of the mirco/ macro spectrum. total war is the king of immersive high scale battles themselves IMO

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

*total war USED TO BE the king there fixed it for you. company of heroes is also not the best on the micro scale either, its super aracadey. close combat, combat mission, and men of war assault squad are all better.

[@alifio2183]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 have you tried the spearhead mod? It made things more reallistic.

[@LV_427]

"Only warriors allowed" Kinda true. When was the last time we have stories about quartermasters, logisticians, radiomen etc in any media?

[@daisygowanditchburn4844]

Sometimes you hear about the translators. Although usually it's because their getting left behind in a war-zone with the enemy still out there for their blood. Which is pretty crap.

[@FrankCastle-tq9bz]

No one wants to play the role of the quartermaster or the combat engineer or the JAG because the game would be all about things like inventory management, digging trenches, building fortifications with fully-functioning sanitation systems and ensuring that the troops are adhering to codes of "law" established by the political class...

[@mojewjewjew4420]

@@daisygowanditchburn4844 You mean Afganistan? Because it did happen.

[@sirllamaiii9708]

Foxhole lol

[@ragnar4327]

@@sirllamaiii9708 yeap , foxhole is good .

[@TheImperatorKnight]

What I love about Close Combat games (and others like them) is that you start with your entire battlegroup and then slowly lose them without being able to replenish during the battle. It's the opposite of what you get in a lot of RTS games where you build up a base and spam out units

[@melikechoc0]

TIK Sudden Strike too

[@zachariahhoffmeister8715]

And now Steel Division \o/

[@gladehartdreamer5620]

while i agree its less realistic i enjoy the typical rts system more, because i simply like to manage bases while my enemies can attack at any moment, and having to balance out tecnology/base expansion with unit training, that mechanic essentially takes what happens on a country-wide scale over the course of at least a few months in real life and reduces it to a local scale over the course of a few hours, so its a simplification that allows for more "big picture" elements of actual war to be brought to use in a fast paced self contained environment.

[@Anti-Furry-tm4tr]

You guys should check out this game call Stalingrado it's really realistic. For old strategy game

[@TotalRookie_LV]

I think "Ground Control" was one of the first tactical games to use squads - you only get landing party and then command it, there was also some choice (scouts or heavy hitters etc) and customisation of squads before missions. High ground and shadows gave advantages and cover, vehicles had weaker armour in sides and rear etc. Pretty advanced for one of the first 3D strategy/tactics games. But, of course, ammo was unlimited.

[@hopin8krzys]

As many people already said, Radio Commander is really good in portraying some of those points. On highest difficulty you dont have any certain informations. Only a map in front of you and radio. Units in active combat can often provide inaccurate data about their status, enemy, position etc. Its really interesting and underrated

[@MitchHirami]

Great video, what caught me in the end was the part about learning and visiting the wrong schools for too long. That’s true, I’m German and our school system is more then ancient. A lot of important things you need directly after school you don’t learn there. That’s sad…

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

As far as I know, it is the case in most places, I am from Austria btw.

[@kamukameh]

@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized hob i ma's jo denkt dass i den Akzent kenn, griass di!

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

@@kamukameh Servas!

[@budmeister]

I want a game where you sit at a table and operate and maintain a radio system.

[@Modolvr]

There is a game called Radio commander. It also uses fog of war for your own units. It just recently had a Kickstarter.

[@arftejano2284]

Modolvr I was just about to say this, it’s actually pretty fun. That’s so funny this guy commented wanting a game like that and 2 years later there is one EXACTLY like this guy asked for

[@danielhall6578]

@@arftejano2284 how much does it cost?

[@chrisowens4550]

Real question: I know there are a bunch of trucking simulators out there, are there any military transport simulators?

[@magicalawnmower4764]

@@danielhall6578 Radio Commander is 10 USD on steam

[@nickbreen287]

I really get a laugh out of your icons, this time it is 'Schrodinger's Kraut'.

[@toukairin354]

I instantly laugh seeing that!

[@daviddechamplain5718]

I have to figure out a way to work it into everyday conversation.

[@nickbreen287]

Ewiges X Are you offended on their behalf?

[@nickbreen287]

Ewiges X I suggest you write a strongly worded letter to military history.

[@nickbreen287]

Ewiges X You are bitching to me about a comment made on the video, write a fucking message to the video maker, not to me.

[@besacciaesteban]

I always thought that a really interesting RTS would be one were the FoW was lifted only around units that have an active radio connection to your HQ. Your units outside of this area would be under IA control until communication becomes possible again.

[@underdog353777]

Another element of "total control" that I think would have been worth mentioning is the way you can usually roll into a world and take control of a region quite simply. Some games still model resistance - but by and large you can roll in, take over, and incorporate land into a nation in a matter of days or months when many nations historically struggle to do so over the course of decades.

[@marsnz1002]

I used to play World War 2 Online. I joined a unit (3rd Pz) and found myself spending my saturday afternoons spawning behind the lines in a Panzer and ferrying it to the frontline before despawning it so we would have enough armour available to push on Antwerp the following week. Didn't see a Tommy or a Frog all weekend, just columns of cold German grey. Good times. Pray for no Jabos.

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

me too that was ages ago before the "Battlefield Europe" changes.

[@marsnz1002]

Yeah I stopped as well when it became another American D-Day storytime clone.

[@DBagg-zz4ip]

good news, apparently they're reintroducing resupply missions. I'm baffled as to the appeal tbh.

[@needmorebrain]

The message at 08:12 reads: Many virtual men died to bring you this message

[@Shadow-sq2yj]

I saw this just as I reached 8:11 😂

[@TheGallantDrake]

In addition to my other comment, I also highly recommend Armored Brigade by Matrix Games. It’s a real time tactics game modelling Cold War era mechanized warfare. It puts a huge emphasis on line of sight and terrain, as well as careful preparation and planning. While it is possible to pause the game and deliver commands to every individual tank, not only is doing so tedious in terms of micromanagement, it actively hurts your ability to operate because orders take time to arrive. Playing as the Soviets, for instance, really does feel like swinging this giant hammer around because your operational units have lots of individual vehicles in them and trying to split them up for ease of use ironically just makes everything take longer. You really have to think ten steps ahead because if you trip at any point the mistake is guaranteed to be costly simply because it takes so long to get new orders to the troops. It can be tempting to park your command vehicle close to the front so you can do your best Napoleon impression, and this is a legitimately powerful move to make simply due to the increased responsiveness of your troops. Just, you know, make sure you’ve got an infantry screen out there cuz those tank commanders can’t see a thing and all those capitalist dogs need is one lucky shot from a TOW in a bush.

[@yourmanjimbo1302]

Why do my Abrams always get clapped by some infantryman with an RPG.

[@lc1138]

One thing shook me while playing Post Scriptum and Foxhole : the fact that you don't instinctively know where you should be aiming at. Nor do you know for sure when you should expect an encounter. But you can't be all.the time in.full alert. It is both exhausting and slow. That's a dilemma which seems to be only present in games where you travel a lot. I believe it allows us to approach the feeling of "10 hours boredom, 10 minutes total terror"

[@habibishapur]

Try arma. Youve only scratched the surface if thats the feeling youre after. Thank me later.

[@lc1138]

@@habibishapur I got stuck in Arma 2 tutorial, or first campaign, and didn't push the experience. I might not have the patience for all the american army blabberish. Thank you for the advice anyway :)

[@habibishapur]

@@lc1138 arma 2 was very limited by the tech of the time. Also the campaigns are ok-ish but when people talk about the realism in the arma experience, they mean playing online with a realism unit. Dont disregard it. Its a very unique experience that you dont wanna miss out on. Arma 3 is so much better in every way, and if you dont want american military stuff, just join a unit that roleplays whatever unit youre fond of. Yes, it does require more commitment than your average game, but thats the nature of simulators in general. But i mean, of course dont play it if you dont like.

[@senormanos]

The Arma series if played in multiplayer in the numerous milsim communities it has it gives you a closer match to the real war than most games. Most of the communities have non combat roles in certain maps/missions (engineers, transport troops, etc), if there's no communication between squads you'll most likely be confused as a enemy squad and get friendly fired. There's some missions where I spent hours digging trenches and building defenses and the enemy attacked a completely different sector so I've never even fired a round. Ofc this is Arma heavily modded and played on multiplayer with people with the mindset of giving the most realistic military sim, it's not for everyone I'm sure. So not sure if it really fits the video since the original game singleplayer and most multiplayer "casual" servers have most of the problems" you've described in your video.

[@stromrage100]

Madplan I was going to say that as well. When I do milsim with ace I usually do support roles like field medic or sniper. we also have people who strictly do cas or fly tranport

[@icecold1805]

Ever tried "Project Reality" mod for Arma III? If you think ArmA is a military simulator, you havent seen nothing yet.

[@chinoduh5761]

Sebastian Ja what about SQUAD?

[@MrVinninator]

Sebastian Ja Actually he talks about playing Arma heavily modded with Mods like Ace, Rhs and stuff, in a milsim Unit with people having the Same mindset and knowledge about rl tactics. Operations in such Units are Far more complex, and often require more tactical/knowledge than your average pr Match.

[@robowarrior2126]

Ah, Arma. The one series that always feels like the only exception to everything. Seriously though, modded Arma is as close as it gets to a realistic combined arms experience in a game. That one time when your unit is surrounded on all sides, almost out of ammo, medical supplies and breathing NCO's. You have no idea if help is coming or where the hell the supply drop that was supposed to land 10mins ago is. That's when Arma is at its finest.

[@chantelnadjiwon7585]

5:45 "Blind as Fuck" Lol I hate how tank games don't portray that very well. I've never played a good tank game that accurately portrayed a real tank battle.

[@Kyoptic]

Try Red Orchestra or Arma - though unmodded Arma is more futuristic.

[@tekmekster]

" I've never played a good tank game that accurately portrayed a real tank battle" try Men of war assault squad 2

[@charlesdark2861]

Try Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad. While it isn't actually a tank game, it features tanks, and the tanks are extremely realistic. First of all, There are actually crew members, not just one person that magically controls the entire tank by himself. 2: If something is destroyed, it can't be repaired. While this certainly can be annoying, It's very realistic, as it'd be extremely hard for your crew members to repair your vehicle in the heat of a firefight. And you basically possess the crew members by using the number keys to play as separate characters. And if someone in the crew dies, They manually have to be replaced by sacrificing one of the roles in your crew. And you actually have to look through viewports, otherwise you're just going to be looking at the interior of your tank, and the viewports are TINY. Or of course, the driver and commander can peak out the hatch, but you'll probably get your head blown off if you do,.

[@hbsupermage]

RO2 which is not a tank game is way better at it than wot

[@Andreas163]

FH 2

[@seb_5969]

5:35 Command Ops 2 is a perfect example for a more realistic ww2 RTS. No exact Data, supply lines, painfully realistic delays and command structures, which (if you fuck up) destroy your whole plan, eg. if you send a command directly to a lower unit instead of his commander the order can slip

[@abramhinde8178]

best free game ever, i’m a mr krabs guy so i mostly download maps and scenarios on the workshop.

[@seb_5969]

@@abramhinde8178 me too, sadly the Multiplayer doesnt really work, atleast i didnt manage to make it work

[@abramhinde8178]

@@seb_5969 the devs took a break, so yeah but i really hope they continue working on it.

[@comradegeneralvladimirpoot1313]

The 2019 PC game 'Radio Commander' actually does a very good job demonstrating the inherent difficulties of just simple communication even in modern war. It's set in Vietnam and all information regarding and orders for your units are given and received via radio; even the location of them must be kept track of manually. Soldiers regularly get lost, confused, and friendly fire is in full effect. It really does a good job demonstrating how much command, control, and war in general is made easier in video games by a godlike perspective when you're stuck in a firebase miles away from the actual fight staring at a paper map while a platoon commander that's utterly lost it babbles incoherently over the radio.

[@theblekedet6467]

"Blind as fuck" 5:46 This made me laugh XD

[@edi9892]

Well dicks are without eyes and they are either covered by pants or stuck somewhere, where eyes would be of no use...

[@pxlcowpxl6166]

+edi nice comparison xDDD

[@King.Leonidas]

its true though XD ive felt it in arma

[@edi9892]

King Leonidas Operation flashpoint... good times.

[@King.Leonidas]

edi that to. Miss the tank interions

[@georgek.9394]

men of war assault squad also has wounded and tanks acctually dont have health they can get damaged in certain parts but still be operational and repairable. if the gun, turret, tracks ,and engine get damaged but the tank itself has an intact hull then it's still repairable. men of war also has ammo counts supply trucks and medica to heal the wounded .

[@georgek.9394]

also penetration values on tanks and such vary depending on the ammo used against it and the range and angle from and at which it was fired

[@edgardox.feliciano3127]

George Koussa I also heard about a mod which actually changes the values and adds a lot of stuff to make the game completely historically accurate down to the last detail, I don't remember what it's called, check out diplexheated, he made some video with the mod

[@georgek.9394]

Edgardo X. Feliciano assault squad is just the best game ever honestly

[@nattygsbord]

Tanks in real life doesn't act like in World of Tanks. If the enemy shots off your track, you will need half and hour to repair it, you cannot do it instantly and you can absolutly not doing when the tank is still moving lol. Furthermore, if your tank gets penetrated by a shell its game over, its not like in games where you can take 4-5 hits before your tank gets wrecked. And if your tank takes serious damages, it can take many hours to fix. And unlike WOT can't you turn your tank gun trough walls and destroyed tanks, like your tank was a ghost. And you cannot drive full speed into a mountain wall and backflip with your tank without serious damages. And your tanks will also have to refuel in real life. And your tanks will be organized under a commander, instead all 15 tanks acting independently. And in real life will also vision be limited in tank combat, and often does the driver have the best view of the outside world. And tanks will have to take mines, infantry, planes, Anti-tank guns into consideration, and not just other tanks. So its a tank game without much realism. Its for entertainment and not real life battle simulation like the game creators says. A realistic tank game would probably be pretty boring, as the game would be over as soon your tracks been blown off. And a single hit could take your tank out, so people would hide like cowards.

[@georgek.9394]

nattygsbord mate i never played world of tanks im talking about men of war assault squad

[@AaronCMounts]

2:30 - That is actually addressed in modern games like Hearts of Iron IV and Stellaris, where the losing force will break and retreat, when it has incurred losses or calculates it can't win.

[@gimmethegepgun]

On the Control part, the Majesty games have an interesting way of doing it: you control where buildings are placed but you have no direct control over any units. Instead, state actors (guards, peasants, tax collectors, etc) act automatically based on your buildings and your real units are basically fantasy adventurers. They do their own thing as well based on what type they are (which, depending on which class they are, may be what you want in the first place, like more militaristic types going and hunting down some enemies), and if you want them to actually do a specific task you have to set a bounty to try to encourage them to actually do it.

[@jeffcaldwell7146]

many virtual men died to bring you this message

[@Albukhshi]

It's in the video, in case you don't know.

[@thecircus2367]

8:11

[@michaelfranciotti3900]

took me a minute to zero in on it but i caught that too

[@tagertgibbs7493]

lol starwars

[@Albukhshi]

Or worse, Melvin Dickpictweet....

[@Wonedge]

Schrödinger's Kraut. LOL. Worth watching just for this.

[@runswithbears3517]

Command Ops 2 does a really good job with the "control" part. It features orders delay (aka the time it takes for a unit to recieve an order and to prepare itself to carry that order out) and also a reconnaissance system where the amount of information you get about an enemy unit depends on the unit doing the recon, the distance, the cover the enemy unit is in, the amount of time they're watching the enemy unit, etc. Pretty good game. Very much like a command simulator, certainly not for everyone.

[@johnngrey1]

2:00 A mod for Company of Heroes (Europe in Ruins) has been one of the best games for displaying something like this. You build your company from limited resource pools before fights, the veterancy is saved, medics can be killed, you gain weaker squads from medic bunkers (ie walking wounded) and units that are retreated are taken off field for the rest of the match.

[@tybushnell9819]

If anyone wants to look into the how total dictatorships are ineffective as well as how other forms of government are ineffective I recommend a video called The Rules for Rulers by CGP Grey

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

I agree, I was thinking of mentioning it.

[@vogelszijnlelijk]

I very much disagree, when in war a total dictatorship is absolutely necessary, to control the military as well as the economy. This is why even democracies in war suspend elections, impose a war economy and abandon the trias politica.

[@hgzmatt]

you can only really control the leaders of these organizations.. you cannot possibly take control over every single unit.. so yes.. you need to delegate in any case..

[@EvilGNU]

+hgzmatt true this is why auftragstaktik/mission tactics became the prevalent mode of operations in most modern militaries and I guess one of the factors why the wehrmacht did so well for a long time. Also I guess this guy is confusing dictatorship with hierarchical order, which to some degree is necessary but not a miracle drug. But i am not sure of this or if the guy is just a Nazi.

[@ColasTeam]

I don't like his video on the subject. He's actually using very much videogame logic in it. He doesn't take real human nature into consideration; He assumes that everyone is just out for themselves, for economic gain, and completely ignores any ideological or theological factors. Dictatorships are not a fantasy system, they have actually been tried in real life and have worked in the past. They aren't a perfect system like some people like to believe, but neither is democracy, they both have advantages and disadvantages and they can work or not depending on the circumstances.

[@petersmythe6462]

"Damaged vehicles" War Thunder does this. Fighter plane has components damaged = those components are either less effective or useless. Flaps break off? No more flaps. Same with tanks. Treads damaged? Hope you like being a stationary turret.

[@SultanOfAwesomeness]

You've got a hole in your left wing! ;D

[@themadhammer3305]

Peter Smythe snapped control cables are the bane of my fucking existence in that game, esspecially for tail controls. one wing you can land and relair, elevators and rudder you might as well bail out immediately

[@JamieFleuret]

hahaha read it in the radio guy voice :D

[@BigMek456]

In war thunder you can repair your damaged treads, engine, gun breech and barrel in like 2 minutes. Very realistic. But at least its something I guess.

[@ma-rz9rd]

if you are really into some realism try il2 bos, very solid fresh sim that has best feeling i've ever experienced. war thunder is funny arcadish game compared to this, i only play war thunder for ground forces however realistic ground battles are neglected and sim almost nonexistent. Also pay2win with shrubberies somehow irritates

[@wolfleader6]

The new Combat Mission series models losing contact with your troops on higher difficulty settings. Your own troops disappear in FOW and you are unable to issue orders if they are out of contact range from a command unit

[@plaidpvcpipe3792]

1:27, the Mount and Blade games use wounded soldiers in a very good way, they act exactly like dead soldiers during the rest of the battle, but after the fact, you either have to wait for them to be healed, or if they are enemies, you may capture them.

[@willythemailboy2]

Oh good god, I lost it on Schrodinger's Kraut. Well played, sir. Well played.

[@johnwicksfoknpencil]

In games... Wounded = lagging MIA = rage quit Non-combatants = the .25 k/d guys

[@boxcarz]

Inexplicably burst into sulfurous flames and sank into the trenches never to be seen again = kicked for hacking

[@TheLeprechaunjm]

I've watched a lot of your videos, and I like them all... but, I like this one the best. You cover a lot of material, very quickly, and make a lot of salient points. Well Done!

[@esmenhamaire6398]

I hadnt spotted this video of yours before - it's an absolute gem!

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

Thank you!

[@vacri54]

I take my virtual hat off to respect those virtual men who have fallen...

[@musicalneptunian]

Virtual war. Virtual war never changes.

[@SMFCNA]

*creates a simulation of myself pressing F to pay virtual respects*

[@Hav0ck23]

Arma 3 is one of the examples. It tries to cover most of the aspects.

[@thedrunkus9792]

yup and if u cant find an aspect in the base game you can be damn sure you'll find a mod for it.

[@justgot2go4now]

Yeah Arma 3 is just one of those special gems. I think if they made it so if you die in the game you die in real life, maybe then my squad would be serious about spacing lol.

[@DudeTheGasmask]

+tyler sakatani That might be a tad bit too extreme, lol. How about shocking them with electricity every time they die? That'd be more effective.

[@Hav0ck23]

RealHumanBean I accept the challange.

[@lissaleggs4136]

Havock Falon4.0 BMS best combat flight sim

[@kevinbrown2438]

I'm reminded of the time I decided to try Falcon 4.0. The REAL DEAL flight sim, instead of those 'games for kids' that someone had derisively referred to my arcade-sim favorites as. Falcon really is a beautiful & meticulous sim, with an incredibly precise flight model... and it is also just not fun to play, because it is interested in being a sim first and a game a distant second. After spending a week or so just getting to grips with the flight model enough to be able to fly my Viper, I went out on a simple combat mission.... and then very promptly learned that, of course, even the most modern of jets do not have an omniscient HUD. How can I tell what I'm supposed to be shooting at? How can I tell if I'm being shot at? This all requires an entirely different set of training & understanding, and diving into that material & coming to grips with facts like the importance of fuel time vs weapon load just drained the experience of entertainment value. Even just a sim of a real air war can't be just a ballet of missiles & twisting planes & seeker growls. It is a dull jaunt around a pre-determined flight path where you hope you can jump someone instead of being jumped, and if you actually do get into a circling dogfight, God help you - because your instruments sure won't. I was quite happy to get back to my 'games for kids' after that experience.

[@hairohukosu433]

something I found out through experience in fps games is that recon is far more useful than gun accuracy to the general combat ability of the team as a whole. And that's good considering my aim is trash

[@looinrims]

In real combat accuracy ratings are in the single digits many times, for just about anything Hence why the effect of fire is expected to just be suppression

[@willtowell4636]

yes! learning is fun! we've become so conditioned that we associate learning with school and shitty lunch.

[@eddy-currents]

+tacticooltube School doesn't usually teach or encourage learning, it's usually just to provide you with some information and skill sets.

[@chack321]

If I could give you a million likes I would! this is so important to remember. learning IS fun. IF YOU GET TO BE IN CONTROL OF WHAT AND HOW! school takes that control away. and even if you like a specific subject you are torn away from it after an arbitrary time limit which somehow always coincided with the exact time when I was most immersed and actually learning at peak efficiency. I hate to pull the [current year] card, but we are in the twenty fucking first century. we have unlimited information at our fingertips. the idea that a 1800s prussian school system meant to churn out factory workers and soldiers is in any way an OK way to teach children is fucking insane. /rant over

[@willtowell4636]

beautifully said

[@totnorbi]

been ranting the same rant since high school, gives me hope to see other people get pissed about this too haha

[@doctorspartan6119]

Han Lockhart I agree; self-teaching or enrolling in a class that’s right for you is more efficient than K-12 school curriculum (I detest the word curriculum at this point so much at this point). The problem with the K-12 system is that they often do not make learning fun, and in my opinion, discourage learning in your own. Every curriculum assumes the kids are dumb as fuck and have no background knowledge, when in reality everyone learns in their own way and has their own background. For example, I’ve loved space since I was very little, so I’d always learn myself. However, when astronomy units came up in school I fell into boredom and despair because I wasn’t learning anything and even asked myself if ever liking astronomy was a big mistake. If I were a teacher, I’d have my students take a pretest before every unit to tell me how I should teach and what I need to put more focus on. Lastly, some information can be up to interpretation and be debatable and students aren’t given much opportunity or time to offer their rationale if they do so. For example, I was widely taught Francisco Franco was a fascist but couldn’t challenge that idea (I was inspired to do further personal research and I strongly agree that Franco was a terrible person and evil dictator, but I don’t think he is best described as a fascist for multiple reasons as do most experts). In other words, by school logic, independent learning is not a good thing, reasonable debates are inappropriate and all students are the same.

[@DasGuntLord01]

"Shrodingers Kraut". Now I'm laughing hysterically. Thanks very much.

[@agamemnonofmycenae5258]

Great video and excellent content! Made me think about how I play video games and how I "see" warfare in general

[@hobbes9433]

I love how this guy stays neutral and keeps with the facts. He doesn't take a side which makes it very interesting. He looks at the bad but also the good things. Keep up that good work!!

[@pnutz_2]

many virtual men died to give you this message

[@1992sommer]

5:20 "Schrödinger's Kraut" icon is awesome!

[@wilmanric2277]

The Operational Art of War does take into account damaged vehicles and something not mentioned here: individual soldiers who are 'left over' when their squad is lost, but are streamed back into your forces.

[@alessandropoliti2103]

Great video, really instructive and well done. Rare in being thought-provoking and a very good by product of serious military history.

[@tenid4824]

Battle of Poland: Load into server earlier, enemy is afk, troll their entire team. Battle of Norway: Unally neutrals, Use exploits you read online earlier on redditt as fast as possible. Battle of France: Use the same exploits you found. Battle of Britain: Enemy uses same exploits before server nerfs/updates the exploit; Rage quit... Battle of Yugoslavia/Greece: Your idiot teammate doesn't know how to play. Spam your army/navy/airforce. .. Battle of Russia: Unally and rush them. But find out this new map is way too laggy/buggy, so you keep changing which direction you want to go hoping you will get a better load-in to the next map, you forgot to bring in new spawns and run your tanks/men past Russ idles just firing away. You lose connection to the server, you reboot and log in and go to Stalingrad, but it's still laggy/buggy, you forgot to bring your new spawns to the front. New update fixes Russ maps and the enemy pwns you with fresh spawns. .. Battles in Africa: Your idiot ally forgot to build a factory in Tunisia, your spawns are stuck there. Battle of Normandy: The enemy spams airforce and navy bombardment. The enemy is showing to land in Calais, but quickly turns west, trollolololololol a message in your Steam inbox you receive. ... Etc....

[@tinguspingus464]

Cam Laffy Taffy whatever game this is it sounds awesome what's it called?

[@jasonchia3959]

real life

[@jeremiaas15]

Note that the "idiot ally" (and your equally idiot navy for that matter) are "idiot" only because you promissed them you won't start playing until 19:46, yet you logged on at 19:39, when they were still booting up their PCs

[@czepersi5185]

"Battle of France: Use the same exploits you found." Add: "Use spawns and spoils from the previous missions in Czechoslovakia and Poland."

[@DocTommy1972]

This is the best comment I've ever seen. Anywhere...

[@DIY_Miracle]

Scourge of War: Waterloo has a mechanic where to issue commands to units a fair distance away you have to send a messanger and they'll usually send messangers back with letters instead of hyper detailed maps. It seems to be a game that is fairly realistic though I haven't played it that much.

[@mrmundyyy]

That game is terrible at actually depicting history or to be more exact Waterloo itself.

[@MMOhawked]

I wish Total War had that mechanic, if you kill the messenger, your units never get the order; makes perfect sense.

[@flightlesscoffeebirdboy9655]

Only niche group would like that element. But the game somehow wouldn't sell well if that were present. People already complaining about the lack of unit stance and formation in TW: Warhammer.

[@mrmundyyy]

Adyprima Nigraha Total War is an insanly casual game. Those are different target groups. The people that play War of Rights and Red Orchestra arent the same that play CoD, and its the same for strategy games.

[@flightlesscoffeebirdboy9655]

Mr Mundy Pretty much my point toward LouiEE. Total War wouldn't sell well having messenger element and lack of troop controls, due to it's casual nature. Better off playing KOEI's strategy game like Oda Nobunaga Ambition.

[@BoerChris]

Thank you for this video. I think you are spot on with your analysis of the limitations of games, but also in your conclusion that they are made to entertain. Sometimes I wish I knew how to produce a tactical computer game for, say, the horse and musket era. I would restrict the view to what the commander could actually see on the ground (e.g. a hedge in front of him, until he moved!) and there would be a real risk from random bullets, shot and shell. Decisions would have to be made on the basis of reports from ADCs, often on the basis of information that was already outdated by the time it arrived. Orders would also have to be sent via messengers, sometimes arriving too late or based on false premises. The level of AI would have to be superb, as orders would have to be carried out in detail by sub-commanders. If you know of such a game, please let me know! Keep up the good work; I have subscribed to your channel.

[@gripken08]

That was one of your best videos IMO.

[@kptlt.phillipthomsen5973]

Bro....Red Orchestra 2 The voice acting of wounded/dying people is PTSD inducing

[@erdervv]

driving a tank too, me and a friend had a ton of fun mixed with terror driving the T-70, you can't see shit, your friend keeps getting stuck in trees because he too can't see shit, and whenever one of your tryes to look outiside some kraut with a machine gun starts shooting at you, the pings on the tank armor scared the crap out of us.

[@ulysses284]

verduns voice acting is pretty good too. i always remember moments when im next to an ally when i just run out of the trench when they collapse dead next to me and i run back into the trench. ahh, good times.

[@negative6442]

The Dudest Rising Storm Vietnam as well. (Yes I know they're the same series.) But sitting there in a bunker while napalm rains down on your position and you can't see shit, and all you can hear over the explosions are your squadmates burning to death is terrifying. Not to mention there's the constant threat of some enemy squad pushing through the artillery strike to finish you off

[@MegaRaven100]

RO II = Best WW II game EVER!

[@arthas640]

Anything by Paradox applies

[@nikolatasev4948]

CGP Grey has a great video about the chains of command, he calls them 'keys to power', in his The Rules for Rulers videos. The Wargame series has quite nice recon mechanic. You don't have a clear fog of war, units with lower stealth value (aircraft, tanks) are visible from further off, and units with higher recon value have higher chances of spotting them, with tanks being almost blind without dedicated recon or at least infantry units. This is in addition of units hiding in cover, in buildings or forests, and being more visible while moving. The Victoria games show the other aspect - defeats leave quite large surviving armies, even though they need quite some time to regain the organization needed to fight again.

[@Menstral]

Fantastic. Guy Debord spoke of the importance of communication, and he said this could be readily and empirically verified in the game he created (Kriegspiel).

[@joshelguapo5563]

Oh my goodness I'm so happy you mentioned Stronghold!!! I don't know if so many people know about this game but it's one of my favorite rts games and I grew up with it.

[@JustSomeGuy489]

8:12 MANY VIRTUAL MEN DIED TO BRING YOU THIS MESSAGE. Also, "Blind as Fuck." Didn't expect you to be the one to swear ;p

[@boycotgugle3040]

Nice1^^ I would only add things related to human perception and also emotion. Meaning that e.g. war is waaay louder than any game or movie, ever. Also, more sleep deprived, boring, and... well... scary. These things can't be conveyed in a game by normal means, but it's worth mentioning with a little more emphasis. Still, very cool, thx!

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

thank you, excellent points, never thought about that, although I got one a "ear ringing" from a "firework" going off to close to me during a demonstration... then I finally realized that those ringing sounds in game and movies should "imitate" that effect.

[@boycotgugle3040]

Military History Visualized Some games imitate this ear-ringing after individual very loud events quite well, which is cool for conveying that (often only in video sequences, but sometimes in normal game play as well). However, what I've never seen, and I guess that's a really hard thing to get right, is the never-ending chaotic noise everywhere on a battlefield. I began thinking about this after watching a Vietnam war vet talk on a documentary, whether he felt movies get the experience right. He said something along the lines of "They never get the ear bursting noise right. Guns firing, shells bursting, people screaming, you couldn't understand the lieutenant shouting orders at the top of his lungs from a few feet away... Every moment was absolutely deafening..." Similarly, Ernst Jünger described in his WWI diary a situation where he had climbed onto the roof of a British machine gun emplacement. He said he could see the machine gun barrels sticking out of the firing slits only a meter or so below him, but only by their vibrating movement could he tell that these were in action, as the noise all around simply drowned out any individual sound. It must have been really hard to not get overwhelmed by the sensory overload, I believe. The very start of the battle, he also described rather poetically (at Kaiserschlacht 1918): "Ein flammender Vorhang fuhr hoch, von jähem, nie gehörtem Aufbrüllen gefolgt. Das Vernichtungsgebrüll der unzähligen Geschütze hinter uns war so furchterregend, dass jede vorher geschlagene Schlacht nur noch unbedeutend erschien." [roughly, cited from memory] I believe you don't need google translate for that ;) Anyway, I think the sound experience alone simply stuns and humbles anyone not used to it....

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

the thing is, if you never experienced in real life - like I did before that event - I had no clue what this should be. Actually, I have one experience that was quite stress inducing. Playing Steel Panthers, I onced copied a CD to music cassette and meanwhile I was playing Steel Panthers on the same stereo, my friend noticed at first it was fun hearing tanks & machine gun fire in the background, but after that it got too intense. It was also Heavy Metal, so it did fit. I noticed as well, playing Steel Panthers with too much volume would was too heavy, although the game is just round-based so rather "unstressful".

[@boycotgugle3040]

Military History Visualized Hey, that's awesome with the steel panthers :D A few years back, when still at college, I used to do something remotely similar, mixing in Stuka dive sirens and Katyusha rocket firing into goth/electronic music for when one of my really crazy friends came over. We really loved that stuff^^ Good times. Him and I also had been on the same lab course when he blew up one of his samples (just to also relate to the firecracker thing; we had some strange transition metal complex with both oxidizer and fuel as molecular ligands; it was the compound from hell, already with dire warnings in the literature... don't ask....) Hey, wait a sec. Steel panthers, aren't they these hilarious glam rock faggots??? xD Omg, saw 'em at summerbreeze a few years back. If I don't mistake them now...

[@Basta_1312]

Not all computer shooter games get things wrong. Check out Project Reality to see how the essence of war and cooperation can be put together as it were a real life war.

[@LeonardoNascimento89]

I remember in Combat Mission Shock Force 2, playing on elite difficulty, your troops can go missing and lost contact with others, so when you select it, your own units get caught by fog of war. I'm not sure, but I believe that they can do friendly fire in some more chaotic battle situations, especially with mortar, javelins and hand grenades.

[@condotierr]

speaking of most realistic game, that has almost no of these ‚wrongs‘, is Radio General. it's not as popular as it deserves, but provides you a great realistic experience of being a general with the map and radio in small camp. recommend this game for anyone, who appreciates such projects.

[@shinydewott]

in EU4(im not sure about the other ones) you don't need to wipe out the enemy in its entirety when their morale is low,they retreat to a safe area and you can't control them until they reach there

[@ShouldOfStudiedForTheTest]

Shiny Dewott This is what I love about EUs battle system. This is more realistic. Do the numbers represent deaths or all kinds of casualties (wounded etc.)? It doesn't make a difference in game play but, I still wonder.

[@cdw2468]

Same with Hoi 4, you don’t kill everyone (unless it’s an encirclement) you just ruin their organization and strength (manpower and equipment)

[@thedreaddeagle8561]

StalinWasBallin I like it when soviets run out of guns.

[@justinsmith4116]

Just gonna come into the chain and point put that every Paradox Interactive grand strategy game based in history has this mechanic.

[@neetmagnet3591]

why does this channel not have hundreds of thousands of views and subs?????

[@AdmiralTypeZero]

it will have one day be patient friendo o7

[@tobiasbengtsson2112]

NEET Magnet it has 128 000 subs and millionär of views

[@Octavius0]

I remember when it only had a few hundred, not that long ago

[@OtgerFabreTsuiIzumi]

KZbin algorithms probably.

[@neetmagnet3591]

Otger Fabre i think its got more to do with people being morons and obsessed with watching an idiot who looks like an idiot scream and make unfunny jokes play dumb video games than learn about history, even if the channel uses visual cues to teach it.

[@nahuelpiguillem2949]

I dont know if someone say it but there is a game called Radio General where you got all information from radio, that means it tries to protray the fog of war you´re talking. Great video and thanks for all the information about german army

[@mountainpass4255]

XCOM’s panic system does control well. A single panic, or even worse, a chain panic can be one of the most frustrating and nerve wracking moments you can experience in a combat game.

[@Frendlu]

A bit like Battle Brothers. Its usually a role that, you gain battles breaking the morale. Killing make something, but dropping the morale its the key that make you win or lose a battle (except undead that doesnt have morale). Its usually a chain. You kill one, 3 are waegering, you kill another one, 2 of this 3 are running, you kill a third one when he was running a 4 more are running, etc.

[@MBKill3rCat]

5:20 - Schrodinger's Kraut... fucking love it.

[@devinmorales7077]

i don't think they "got it wrong" they just didn't include it in the games for playability. if you had to do a 2 hour breifing and then fly 3 real hours to your target just to take the 5 seconds to drop a bomb and then fly 3 hours back to land and debreif. i doubt you would fly too many missions on that game. war games are made to focus on action not logistics in most cases. something like that would be good in an rts but not a fps or shooter.

[@TMAC53]

"Wrong" is probably poor word choice. Omit fits better.

[@sovereign6291]

Some people actually want that. DCS World is a prime example, everything is fully simulated. The hundreds of buttons and instruments in the cockpits,the aerodynamic weight of bombs on each wing to the point it will be unbalanced and drift to the side in flight after you drop a bomb and still carry another, I think they even added frosting at high altitudes,but in general you name and it's there with several hundred page manuals for each plane.

[@devinmorales7077]

Sovereign i wouldn't doubt it, but at that point i think you are crossing from games into what could accurately be called a simulation. Nothing wrong with enjoying a good sim.

[@burnttoast111]

+Devin Morales "i wouldn't doubt it, but at that point i think you are crossing from games into what could accurately be called a simulation. Nothing wrong with enjoying a good sim." Whether something is a game or not has to do with whether you can win or lose, through some kind of rules and objectives. Just like in real life the rules and objectives don't have to be built-in. You might challenge a friend to a race on foot between two locations in real life, and similarly do so in a sandbox environment. So you can always take a program that isn't a game, and make a game out of it. You probably could come up with a game using TurboTax if you really wanted to. A lame game, but a game nonetheless. How accurately a program reflects reality is a continuum, not some kind of a "true / false" statement. No program models reality perfectly (not even DCS). And every game models some kind of a reality, even if that reality is fictional or abstract. Because the rules and objectives have to make sense to the player, even if the game is constructed in such a way that the player has to figure out what the rules and objectives are. Whether a game is categorized as a simulator or not is more about what the publishers want to emphasize in their marketing, and what the design goals and emphasis of the developers was.

[@ileryon4019]

Not everyone has like 5 hours to plan an attack. Thats why games have respawn. Anyways, if you do die and there is no respawn whatsoever, you can get into another match.

[@Ninjaananas]

I like that you also acknowledged the clash of accuracy and game design.

[@saigokun]

This was a great and very informative video.

[@marediasborumor2012]

There is currently a computer version of the classic Kriegsspiel under development, and it's called General Staff. If they publish the game it would simulate fog of war pretty well.

[@wisemankugelmemicus1701]

Red Orchestra 2 does a much better job at portraying the conditions of war in terms of roles, with semi-proportional roles with specialist and command roles to regular Infantry (same with medics, combat engineers, Anti-tank soldiers, etc)

[@Bufkey]

If only Red Orchestra 2 had a medic role

[@wisemankugelmemicus1701]

Killer-Toni It does.

[@Bufkey]

General Wisemankugel Memicus Did it always have it? I don't remember

[@wisemankugelmemicus1701]

Killer-Toni I believe so..if not then the Elite Infantry has similar equipment.

[@furstzukarlstadt297]

+General Wisemankugel Memicus No, it doesn't have........ whos death is death.

[@Inkompetent]

Although this is an ancient video I'd really recommend trying "Scourge of War: Waterloo" to get more realistic levels of casualties as well as delegation of command (including disobeying orders, taking initiative without orders, etc). It's hardly fancy-looking since it has sprite graphics despite being somewhat new, but it also allows MASSIVE battles with 1000+ troops in what basically is an indie game.

[@GrayGeist]

Combat Mission, all of them, were absolutely phenomenal - imagine Close Combat but on steroids. Amazing game series.

[@sindreherstad8739]

A game that I would say is good and realistic is: Gravteam Tactics. its an RTS. Tanks might stop working before the battle. During battle you only know if the tank is working, wounded or dead. Morale is not in %. Hitchances are "lowe" a guy with an mg42 fiering at an hillside wil propably not hit that many ennemies, but they wil cower down and be supressed. in longrange tankbattles a tank can take a lot if hits. When the airforces come you got no controle over them, they will divebomb on their own. You can set up artillery fieringcones (if you got arty). you cannt command induvidual units but groups, they will take cover on their own. I hope ypu take a look at the game :)

[@sindreherstad8739]

you cant spam commands either and cant give precice orders. the battles are large and grafics good. You cant see hitchanses either. It olso got a strategypart to in in a "worldmap".

[@101jir]

Sounds interesting.

[@user-np1ij7ed9u]

Agreed, the games by Graviteam Tactics actually counters almost all the points in this video in an interesting way. You play as a more or less omniscient commander that has to deal with the chain of command in order to fully utilize your troops. Other than orders given before combat begins or the few you can give during combat, you have to rely on your subordinate commanders to deal with the fog of war and whatever the enemy throws at them. Sure, YOU can see the enemy flanking around your well positioned anti-tank units, but the commander of those troops CANNOT and thus will probably find out far too late. Even if you manually change the position of your units by using your precious few command points, it may break radio communication lines with those units and their commander STILL won't know about the tanks since voice communication is only around 100m (and under heavy fire, it'll be less or even completely useless) and smoke signals are unreliable. So the biggest role you have is to properly place your units to maximize communication and cooperation and pray that your subordinates are competent enough to take control of the constantly evolving situation. And that's nothing compared to attacking a well-fortified enemy position. It really makes you appreciate just how difficult it was/is to do any kind of military planning. I think MHV would find this series fascinating if he looked into it, but as a game it is immensely frustrating as it deals with a lot of "uncertainty" and "loss of control". There's nothing more maddening than seeing your soldiers panic and refuse to follow your orders because while YOU see the enemy has only 1 squad of 3 soldiers left to your 3 platoons, your platoon leaders were killed by stray mortar fire and your NCOs have no idea about the enemy forces remaining would rather retreat/surrender than press ahead. Your company commander has no way to get in contact with his platoons (or he has no idea the platoon leaders were killed) because its night and he got lost trying to move to the position you told him to attack.

[@sindreherstad8739]

Max Hueppe Nice comment! The FOW is amazing. You should repost this as a "propper comment" just to make sure he sees it :(

[@sindreherstad8739]

Yes. But it is sattisfying stopping a full sovjet charge with a few MGs with good fows. I have slaughtered a few hillsides ;). The first time I played it I refunded it on Steame caus I didnt mannage to do anything. But I rebought it and boy was it worth

[@davidmossong8061]

Does anyone know what the 3095 "smoke troops" listed in the German field army composition slide are?

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

Nebelwerfer / Nebeltruppen, which was actually a rocket launcher, although I am not sure what their equipment and ammo loadout was in 1939. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebelwerfer

[@davidmossong8061]

Thanks very much. Great video.

[@sniperking41]

The Combat mission series is a game series you might want to take a look at if you want a good tactical combat strategy game with fog of war with friendlies.

[@flakby3085]

initially those were the chemical warfare troops

[@maciejniedzielski7496]

+Military History Visualized yes, literally "fog launcher" were batteries of rocket launcher"

[@bhangrafan4480]

When I'm playing "Armoured Brigade" I play real time against the AI opponent and also speeded up. What this does is that although too much information is made available to the player than would be realistic, the player is so busy managing the battle that they do not have time to delve deep into the data provided, they have to make a snap decision on limited data. Another good feature of AB is the loss of response by damaged, disabled units, and the bugging out of spooked units, all which mean your amount of control deteriorates as the battle progresses. My main criticism about the programme is that the AI opponent seems a bit stereotyped in its responses, also I would love a version of the game that enabled two people to play against each other.

[@Courier_6]

“Mud and Blood” (steam). Loss of control at times, varied degrees of uncertainty. Theme of game, aside from WW2 U.S. in Europe, is the unfair and randomness of war.