What Denethor Missed: Northern Courage and Theoden's Legacy

[@valaraukar_595]

The callback to Fingolfin riding into battle and Theoden's words: “My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed." That 1-2 punch seals the deal for me. I admire Theoden very much.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Very much a Fingolfin moment; even the descriptions are parallel 💔

[@dominushydra]

Theoden didn't have to throw hands with Morgoth. Still awesome.

[@Art_and_Anxiety]

I wish that line had been kept in the theatrical release, it was a beautiful moment imo

[@johnlove3505]

Calling the line from the Battle of Maldon a banger isn't an anachronism, it was a shield banger.

[@thodan467]

How Theoden treats merry Taking him as as a squire, telling him there is no shame because it is out of necessity he cannot ride to Gondor. And the dying on the field, saying Merry there is nothing to forgive and that he understands him . The treatment of Beregond by Denethor is vastly different

[@feroxfreak209]

"...might have been disastrous but would also likely have been highly awesome." is an amazingly quotable phrase in my humble opinion.

[@bigsarge2085]

Incredible. I also think Tolkien approaches the concept of courage based on his heinous experiences in WWI.

[@mjlamey1066]

I think also it might be useful to think about how far removed Theoden vs Denethor are from their community at large in terms of how they end up acting in the face of death, or perceived death. It sort of springs to mind some sociological gleanings ive read in Sebastian Junger's book Tribe. I think Theoden, and the Rohirrim in general, are far more communal and used to sharing the burdens amongst each other than, say, Denethor is. They're more willing to go out together because in daily living theyre more of a unit already. I cant speak for all of Gondorian society, but Denethor in particular acts as though he coordinates and commands, but doesnt really get out much. He seems like, even in his best moments, like he is very much bearing the burden of his regency alone and it weighs on him. I think, maybe, when he thought Faramir had died, it mightve been a contributing factor that he had probably also lost one of the last few people he thought he could take counsel with and now he really was shouldering all of Gondor's weight alone and he collapsed under it. Whereas Theoden seemed to always have warriors, relatives, and friends at his side that he considered companions, Denethor always seemed really lonely at the top Idk how well i put that and its a freaking essay, but i think the social conditions of who they were as people and how much they considered themselves "a part of" and integrated with their "tribe" and its values could also have an impact on how each man eventually decided to "go out". Edit: It also might be worth considering that potentially Denethor saw his role more as a "head of state" while Theoden saw his as more "leader of a people". I feel like it might say something that a lot of times I hear talk more in terms of "the Rohirrim" as a group of people versus Gondor as a kingdom, rather than any other way. Which might also speak somewhat for how those cultures see themselves.

[@EriktheRed2023]

That makes a lot of sense. Also when you consider the sizes of the two nations. The Rohirrim probably number at several hundred thousand, and Gondor in the millions. The Gondorian hierarchy has to be much steeper than that of Rohan.

[@NunyaBesnas]

A good parallel to modern governance.

[@annafdd]

These are all very isightful observations!

[@randallchin9238]

I've always viewed Denethor as someone who considered the rule of Gondor as his privilege and duty, and bore both the privilege and duty heavily over long years, only to be finally broken when he believes he has sacrificed his last child in the failure of his duty. As Anton Chekhov said "Any idiot can face a crisis; it's the day-to-day living that wears you down." Denethor essentially spent his entire adult life being worn down every day, holding back the malice of Mordor almost alone (and knowing that Gondor, doing all that it could, was losing ground when Mordor was only using a small fraction of its strength), and was broken to despair only when he believed he sacrificed his last child in the long, slow, and final failure of his duty. His flaw, perhaps, was his pride in thinking that he / Gondor needed to do it alone, or only with the occasional assistance of Rohan.

[@firetarrasque4667]

I think it's all heightened by the fact that Denethor wasn't entirely *wrong,* either. The West has failed, in many ways. It was in-facing and negligent to the lands outside its care. Would Saruman's war have been half as bad if the Hill Men didn't have an (extremely valid) reason to seek vengeance? Would Sauron's rise have occured at all, if Gondor had done more reaching out to the East?

[@jimjimson9]

"Care more about the ones who were singing than what they had to say" is absolute fire. Amazing content GNG xoxo

[@NunyaBesnas]

Theoden’s fatalistic courage is inspiring. He knew he was riding to his death. He knew he had no chance. He went anyway because it was right.

[@SingingSealRiana]

and he did not wish to die, but he was willing to take the risk for what be believed in, thats all the difference

[@matiasluukkanen7718]

'Right'. Or rather, this is only and best chance to stem Mordor's strategy and deny them crossing over Anduin. Minas Tirith cannot fall, or defeat is certain for not only Gondor but to the Free Peoples as well. Theoden even says so. It is 'right' but it is also prudent military decision.

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

The quote at the beginning of this video is my second-favorite passage in the books. A lot of us (myself included) like to think of Gandalf as the badass wizard who fights demons and repels Nazgûl with a cop flashlight, and that is true. But his greatest power is in his words, and their ability to encourage and unify people who would otherwise be divided or indecisive-yet another instance of him being the inverse of Saruman, who uses his rhetorical power to daunt brave people and divide united people.

[@margaretalbrecht4650]

Boromir and Faramir are the classic golden child / scapegoat dynamic. Faramir keeps trying to gain his fatherʻs approval and canʻt accept that he never will.

[@istari0]

I think the flaw that Sauron was ultimately able to exploit to cripple Denethor was revealed early in Denethor's life. When Aragorn came to Gondor as Thorongil, Denethor became jealous of the attention and accolades his father, Ecthelion, bestowed on Thorongil. There was a certain paranoia in Denethor's outlook in that he worried about being replaced when he himself believed that he had be the man to lead Gondor and anything else would mark both his end and that of Gondor. Thus, Denethor saw Gandalf as a rival, seeking to replace him with Aragorn and turn his surviving son away from him. Sauron played on all these fears and when Denethor was convinced by what Sauron showed him in the palantir that Gondor would fall regardless, it broke his mind.

[@Enerdhil]

So true. I think Denethor must have been relieved to see Thorongil leave and not come back. He killed himself before he could see Thorongil return as Aragorn.

[@stonefox2546]

"Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die; I know one thing which never dies: the reputation of each dead man."

[@astrogypsy]

Tolkien head that I am, I watch all of your content, and wanted to say that the richness of your insights on the topic stand out, particularly so with this episode. Thanks for putting your ideas out here for the world.

[@thylange]

I think Denethors line about the Isildur lineage is a reference to Arvedui's claim on the throne of Gondor, which was denied.

[@SingingSealRiana]

there is such a big difference between theodens last battle and what eowyn did. he did not ride out to die, but he was willing to die trying to defend what he loved. Same later with the last resort diversion armee that Aragorn leads befor mordors black gate . . . Eowyn on the other hand, she did not ride out to protect anything of anyone, her goal was to die fighting, she did not care she managed a heros deed unmatched, she was bitter she survived it and so many miss that sad fact over how epic her attempted last stand was. Theoden was brave . . . with her it is really hard to tell how much braver there was and how much she was just suicidal. It is easy to be "brave" when you are more afraid of living, then you are of death. She did defend him , she tried to protect him when she saw him fall, but that was not the reason she was there

[@crazyscotsman9327]

Loved the video and this “northern courage” is one of those things I love most in different fantasy stories. Knowing you will die knowing you can’t win. But still doing the right thing. The honorable and honest thing.

[@SuperCory1973]

Wonderful, thoughtful video! I wonder how Helm Hammerhand's story influenced Theoden. It's Rohan's national myth in a way. It's a "quality of the deed" story, but Helm gave little thought to results. He had no plan to continue the nation. Probably believed Rohan was at a final end. Yet Rohan, nearly snuffed out, survived. Theoden could have taken twin lessons from that story. On the one hand, Helm never stops fighting even when he has no hope. On the other, the nation, seemingly dead, found a way to continue and be reborn. It's a story that could have given Theoden both "Northern Courage" and reasonable hope for the future. Rohan had died before, but been resurrected. Denethor's lack of a similarly resonate national myth gave him little to fall back on emotionally and led him to despair.

[@mjlamey1066]

Imma be honest, idk how many more times I can wake babe up this week without facing her wrath. You really are spoiling us with content Lexi, God bless.

[@goyonman9655]

What does her wrath translate to?

[@mjlamey1066]

@@goyonman9655 the Hom-Dai.

[@tiltskillet7085]

Your last two videos and the discussion of "Northern Courage" has made me think about Aragorn choosing to walk the Paths of the Dead because of need, compared to Baldor, Brego's son, choosing to do so from pride. I love that these two collide in a narrative sense on said paths. (And the so very Tolkien-ish touch that some of its background is withheld until a chapter later and the appendices where it's easy to miss for a first time reader.) Also the phrase "Northern Courage" always puts me in mind of akvavit, a very different sort of spirit. :P Anyway, these were a lovey pair of videos. Your content is excellent.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

Denethor's fall is absolutely gutwrenching for me. the proud genius nobility of the prior chapters all crumbling, the bounds of reason crumbling, a broken pride and in its place despair and a keening broken love of a father for his boy, and even the shell of disordered passion and madness retains its genius, and that intellect only hastens the madman to his doom. Tolkien is misread as an author who cannot do character and its baffling to me. The literati types really have no excuse for these misreadings

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

In his defense, he maintained a stable pen friendship with the master of illusions himself. By means of a looking glass! Who wouldn't go mad?

[@internetenjoyer1044]

@@markus-hermannkoch1740 yes. And it made strategi sense for him to so everything about about denethor is so nearly a virtue it hurts

[@KororaPenguin]

@@markus-hermannkoch1740 That is to say, he's been in contact with the reigning DEVIL!

[@alexandernagel8205]

Thank you for taking the time to showcase so many illustrations of these characters. I haven’t seen many beyond Jackson’s renditions and Alan Lee’s work

[@SingingSealRiana]

your comparison of theoden and Denethor is so amazingly on point! It is something I felt since I was a little kid first listening to the audio book, But I never founds the words . . . Thank you! theoden was such a great character

[@toferg.8264]

6:50 , Now that is a really good image of book-Denethor!

[@ellerose9164]

This really makes me appreciate Theoden even more! It is a wise observation by Tolkien what makes a person kind and accepting at the end of their lives vs bitter and pessimistic like in Denethor's case. Also I hope I am not annoying, but i'd love to see the missing videos of the magic of middle earth series reuploaded❤

[@waelisc]

It's another aspect of winning reputation, but a particular motive of the English in The Battle of Maldon is repayment of favour they've received from their lord in life, so that they'll even follow their recently-vanquished leader into death. Those who flee after Byrhtnoþ is killed are shamed, but it's a twist on the more self-centred fame-seeking that they feel their hopeless last stand is owed, out of friendship and loyalty. Rather than a heat-of-the-moment fatalism, it's a very premeditated and almost cold-blooded bravery which you commit yourself to, one gift or favour at a time. The hobbits perhaps personify that heroism best.

[@oudviola]

Great discussion. I hadn't considered it, but placing things in this context suggests a direct link between Denethor's final despair and the original (unspecified) sin of Men after their Awakening in the First Age. Ar-Pharazon's impossible assault on Valinor, while bravado, was presumably fuelled by that same sin. Lack of faith in Eru's beneficence seems like part of this, and relates to Tolkien's religion.

[@TarMody]

I think that Tolkien's lack of Estel is related to Melkor's will. Namely: The hröa (body) of every incarnated being is structured from the material of Arda, which contains the will of Melkor, and is expressed as "tainted" in Tolkien's words. Due to the incarnate form of existence, this will on the hröa (body) is reflected in the fëa (soul) and leads the being to tend towards despair. This is the main reason for the absence of Estel in Tolkien's mythology. When I study this theorized phenomenon on the characters of Denethor and Théoden, it can be said that the main reason why Denethor lacks Estel more than Théoden is Sauron. It is understood that Sauron, who took over the Corrupted Arda from Melkor, awakened (revived and increased the effectiveness) the Melkor will in Denethor (carried by his body), with whom he communicated mentally through the Palantír, causing him to despair in his soul and weakening the Estel feeling. I find it more attractive to define such situations with the internal dynamics of the universe that Tolkien created, rather than connecting them to the real world elements that influenced him during his writing.

[@paulvmarks]

Theoden also seems to have sincere religious faith - he believes he will see his forefathers, whereas Denethor has none. To Denethor this life is all there is.

[@paulbrickler]

This was a very informative, almost theological discussion about aspects of these characters I had not even contemplated. And I've read the books until the covers wore off, and I've watched the movies so many times. Thanks - that was really an excellent video.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

This is one of my favorite topics and there’s SOOOOO much to talk about.

[@yogsothoth7594]

Its not quite the same thing but I've always liked the poem Gwęn ap Llywarch a'i Fam from the collection of medieval welsh poems Cau Llywarch Hen as an interesting discussion of courage and heroism. Llywarch is a lord along the border between the lands ruled by saxons and those ruled by britons, in his feasting hall he is approached by Gwen his (lost and possibly illegitimate) son before a battle and as Llywarch is an elderly man by now Gwen offers to take his father's place in battle. But then having accepted this very generous offer the poem largely consists of Llywarch insisting Gwen cannot retreat from the ford he's going to defend under any circumstances, while Gwen tries to say that he'll defend the ford as long as it remains sensible, and that he promises to stand and fight bravely and so on until finally Llywarch manages to shame Gwen into agreeing to not retreat no matter what. And in the next poem in the book when then have the poem of Llywarch lamenting that Gwen stood and fought to the death and you know actually he's done this with all of his sons and he's left alone now. I think its quite an interesting discussion of how such concepts of self sacrifice and heroism when taken to excessive extremes can end up being used as a tool for people to be shamed into courage to the extent that it results in pointless deaths.

[@Soursass]

You’re right up there with in deep geek and nerd of the rings with your quality thoroughness and presentation in your videos. Keep up the amazing work.

[@michaelogrady232]

She far surpasses them. On a par with Rainbow Dave.

[@ewetube4860]

Thank you, Lexi! I really liked the artwork of Theoden and Eowyn!

[@shanenolan5625]

Thank you lexi ( you have me with the title)

[@michaelfisher7170]

I had been deeply into Tolkien before the movies arrived. They were a foundational part of my literary tastes and sensibilities as I had encountered the first in junior high. And I remember coming away from my first viewing of the movies and finding myself a bit disappointed and even resentful of Denethors presentation in the films.

[@freeclark2002]

Well done!!! I would definitely welcome hearing more on Theoden and Denethor.

[@michaelnewsham1412]

The epitome of 'Northern Courage' is that of Ragnorak, when the heroes of Valhalla will go forth to a doomed war; they know they will lose, but will fight for the gods anyway. Tolkien is here again torn between northern curage vs Christian trumphalism.

[@dominushydra]

I love it. Thank you for doing this. Ugh, Yoystan's tribute to his Grandfather making the video about Theoden is amazeballs and tear jerking.

[@wereitsoeasy189]

Thank you for making these videos. It is a great pleasure to hear intelligent conversation surrounding theme and meaning, not just a plot and detail regurgitation

[@nicolasstanley1392]

Good epitaph: “May we all comport ourselves to make our descendants and ancestors proud”

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Thanks, Lexi!!

[@robbie42944]

“The fate is isildussy” threw me into a fit of laughter I don’t know I’ll recover from

[@smillee1957]

Thanks Lexi! Congrats on 20k subs!

[@TakManSan]

The Palantir allowed Sauron to infect both Denethor and Saruman with doubt, which led to paranoia and fear.

[@scm523]

The Havamal ends with a line that surely had Tolkien in mind when he designed the character of Théoden and the Rohirrim: “Cattle die and kinsmen die, thyself too soon must die, but one thing never, I ween, will die, -- fair fame of one who has earned.”

[@annafdd]

This is one of the best videos you have released recently, Lexie. Awesome.

[@oldboy117]

Why am I tearing up 😭 Amazing video

[@TheCorpusDelicti]

Can't wait to listen to this one!

[@toferg.8264]

So far, every Denethor video of yours is great! Of course another is welcome!

[@marcsarzi4636]

You are a great writer on your own. This was a great essay before being a video.

[@colinleat8309]

Another excellent video! Lot's to say about the differences between Theodon and Denethoer, but you got it pretty well covered! 👍. 🖖😁🤘🇨🇦

[@waldo5017]

Could the sacrifice of Fingolfin be an early example of Northern Courage? It was a battle that was entirely unnecessary and hopeless borne up by Fingolfin succumbing to despair. Fingolfin in that moment definitely knew it was hopeless, but he decided on sacrificing himself to a glorious end, as opposed to helping the Noldor recover from the Bragollach. At any rate the duel with Morgoth is remembered in the lore of Middle Earth as a heroic last stand against an overwhelming tyranny, made all the more powerful by the reminder that Fingolfin stood his ground and crippled Morgoth in his last breath. Fingolfin, despite dying needlessly, proves to Morgoth and to the rest of history that even though the fight against the dark lord may be hopeless, Morgoth despite being the self proclaimed greatest power in Arda is still vulnerable and capable of humiliation. This is a sentiment that proves important for the deeds of Beren and Luthien later in the Silmarillion, as well as the continued fight against Morgoth.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Excellent point! It is also one of Morgoth's many ignored wake-up calls. He is becoming so suffused into Middle-earth that his power is noticeably diminished.

[@waldo5017]

@@EriktheRed2023 Yeah exactly. His indomitable will to dominate complete temporal power over Arda led to Morgoth weakening his own power

[@dominushydra]

It was a wake up call. Fingolfin is no dummy, he saw there was no more hope of defeating Morgoth militarily and called his bluff he was PERSONALLY as powerful as he once was. It was a genius move by a genius strategist

[@allisonkreutzberg6079]

Wonderful video❤. I love this topic and you bring great insights I missed, as always. 😊

[@kolsveinnskraevolding]

Finally, you talk about the Viking stuff.

[@TheDanEdwards]

Why do you think "northern" refers to _vikings_ ?

[@frankydaulman2291]

Interesting insight as ever

[@truthjustice6454]

New video 😊 Nice discussion 🙂 👍 Good to hear your healthy and expressive voice.😊

[@TheLadyVictory]

Ugh so good! Your analyses always blow my mind.

[@shanenolan5625]

20k congratulations

[@Enerdhil]

Thanks for pointing that out. I did not notice her sub count was that high

[@shanenolan5625]

@@Enerdhil your welcome.

[@MrTNT49]

Daaaamn girl. Pumping out the content lately

[@user-ks5cg5cd7m]

Excellent!

[@Valdagast]

I mean, if someone turned up and claimed rulership of Sweden because he can trace his lineage back to Ingjald Illrade (9th century), he would not become king.

[@tastegeorgia674]

And yet that's what Israel is doing in Palestine.

[@paulgaras2606]

@@tastegeorgia674party foul

[@GirlNextGondor]

Ah, but what if he then leads the armies of Sweden and... idk, Greenland, in a suicidal bluff-attack against Satan himself, which happens to kill off most of Sweden's most competent politicians? 😂

[@thodan467]

he became king elected by the people, the assembly

[@Enerdhil]

​@@tastegeorgia674 I suppose you quite enjoyed the slaughter that Hamas committed on the people of Israel yesterday.🧐

[@IanHeins]

Nice work thanks

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This was as ever great stuff, it reminds me very much of joseph campbell and his ideas on meta themes within mythology, allowing the rule to pass to the next generation etc. the commentary on the battle of Maldon is an excellent piece by Tolkien, who had seen hopeless loss in war to no end and been able to contrast it with the true northern courage of the ordinary woking men of North England over who he had a temporary stewardship. These contrasting truths with in the professor gives the deaths of denetho and Theoden, their beauty, power, and poignancy. thanks GNG.

[@emtiger3]

I had never considered a darkside to "Northern Courage," I had only ascribed darkness to individuals attempting to live out that courage in a flawed or failed way. I now understand something of the shadow side of an otherwise noble ethos. Thank-you, Lexi.

[@dominushydra]

Yeah Melkor is working through her.

[@dominushydra]

His little princess turned something like conquering your own fear of death and saving your friends into something selfish and vainglorious. Well done.

[@EriktheRed2023]

We're being spoiled with all this content! How delightful! I'll settle down to watch now...

[@mojosbigsticks]

Well put.

[@jarrodcarver9001]

Good stuff as ever! Thank you!

[@dayofayanju9021]

Chef's kiss

[@docopoper]

In some ways this video is a continuation of the fictional oral tradition discussing Denathor and Theodin.

[@matthewdunham1689]

"Into the valley of death rode the 600 hundred."

[@Martin_Hermann]

Why did Sauron fear his enemies claiming and using the ring? Wouldnt that be good for him? The ring would slowly corrupt them, so Sauron could just lay low and wait until they are destroyed.

[@EriktheRed2023]

GNG has some suggestions in her 'Rings of Power' video. Quick summary: It depends on what exactly you believe would happen if someone were to wield the Ring. A fellow maia might possibly master the Ring, wrenching it from Sauron's ownership, turning him into the powerless spirit he becomes when the Ring is destroyed. Even without that possibility, Sauron seeks political and personal control over the world and its inhabitants. If some strong-willed person was able to use the Ring without entirely mastering it, they could challenge Mordor and its empire militarily, and destroy it. Sauron built and rebuilt it over thousands of years, and having it destroyed would be unappealing.

[@stephenleggett4243]

I enjoyed that while enjoying a nice glass of Northern Courage in the form of a rather good single malt scotch.

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

Let's go out with a bang! Yet there is a good thought here, in also requiring a worthy benefit to be gained by doing so.

[@adventussaxonum448]

The line from the Battle of Maldon is not a reference to Brythnoth's decision to allow the Vikings to cross, (which WAS seen as unwise), it was linked to the refusal of his hearth troops to flee the field after their lord's death.

[@sinthoras1917]

I really love how much great art you use in the background, and how you always cite it and make it easy to find oneself

[@ericxemerson]

Great

[@rdbury507]

Is "northern courage" really northern? It seems to me that it's a feature of pretty much every samurai movie I've ever seen. And if the Battle of Thermopylae isn't an example then I don't know what is.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Great video, as always. I love the parallels between Denethor and Theoden, and I think it's a key element to see how Tolkien transcends both european paganism and christianity in his narrative

[@michaelman957]

The Charge of the Rohirrim echoes the Charge of the Winged Hussars in Vienna.

[@stevewloo]

I got thinking about the One Ring verse at the heart of Lord of the Rings: “… One Ring to rule THEM all,” etc. It has always chilled me as one of the most malevolent collections of words I’ve ever encountered. But for the first time since having read it over fifty years ago, I started thinking, “Who is ‘Them’?” Is it the other rings of power? If so, why did Sauron give the Seven and the Nine away in the first place if he wants to bring them all to Mordor and bind them? Is it the people who hold those rings? Well, he succeeded in this purpose with the Nine, but not the Seven and very much not the Three. Did he want to capture them and keep them imprisoned in the dark in Mordor? Or did it refer to all the peoples of Middle Earth, binding them to his power in a Mordor that expanded to include the whole world east of the sea? And was the verse an incantation that Sauron had had to chant while he was forging the ring? Did the recitation of the chant chant cause the last lines of the poem to appear engraved on the ring, or had Sauron had to engrave it so beautifully and finely after he’d finished the hammer blows at the forge? Indeed, did he forge the ring like a smith, having learned the craft as a follower of Aule? I’d love you to do a video on this if you find it intriguing. I love your insight into things. Thanks, Steve B, Ottawa.

[@blakewinter1657]

Gondor über alles! - Denethor However, I think Denethor valued Gondor insofar as it brought glory to him. Gandalf and Faramir and Aragorn value Gondor for the people and lore and for the service they can do for others.

[@KororaPenguin]

Faramir's patriotism is not unlike that of Mace Windu in Star Wars. Master Windu sees civilization as making societies less harsh and unforgiving, and he sees the Republic, despite its faults, as the clearest embodiment of civilization. He does not love the lightsaber for its deadliness nor the blaster for its bolts; he loves only that which they defend.

[@waltonsmith7210]

I think Denethor identifies Gondor with himself. That's why he goes out so spectacularly and with such spite. In his mind, he IS the state. It's kind of like if a Jewish leader did a forbidden sacrifice while rejecting Moses and Abraham and everything they stood for. It's an act of breathtaking sacrilege. That's why I find it so interesting. It's the closest thing to an openly religious moment in Middle Earth when Gandalf uses the word "heathen" reprovingly.

[@stonefox2546]

"Heathen" probably having in original Westron connotations of "Morgoth-worshipping".

[@Enerdhil]

​@@stonefox2546 The Temple of Melkor in Numenor comes to mind.

[@hglundahl]

14:39 Tolkien never said Denethor's flaw was valuing Gondor "over the rest of the world." That would mean "over other countries" ... It was valuing Gondor and his own politics over a universal and Gondor-independent (though very Gondor compatible) code (among other things, of ethics, but also presumably belief in Eru). A bit like Hitler's or even Albert Forster's flaw in Sept 1939 wasn't valuing Germans over Poles. It was valuing _that_ evaluation over common decency. A thing which also covers Poles. Back when I was ten, I saw Poland's claims on Danzig as expansionist, but I hadn't taken into account how Albert Forster and his two predecessors were already treating Poles residing in the area.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Denethor is not the only one in LotR who wants to preserve things as they are, but cannot. Elrond says specifically that he believes that with the destruction of the One Ring, the other rings will fail. Galadriel expands on this, and says that the Galadhrim must choose to leave or to dwindle. Even the Hobbits find that they cannot save the old Shire, both for personal and practical reasons. Denethor's love for Gondor is so mixed up with his pride, he cannot face up to the change.

[@owleyes8600]

I also thought Lexi's description of Denethor sounded very elven, the very flaws that Sauron exploited to make them make the rings. Both times the desire to keep things as they were and stop the flow of history was doomed to fail and self destructive.

[@TurinTuram]

interesting, have a good day!

[@jimbombadill]

exellent video like usual...but when are you going to make a video on the most important subject there is about Tolkiens world and work? .... Could Gandalf realy turn Sam into a toad?

[@Edward-nf4nc]

Northern Courage: The Dunedain of Arnor fought to the end and continue after the end, as Beregond speaks of Gondor surviving, even if just in a valley. Northern Courage: Lord Fram kills a dragon! Northern Courage: The great kingdom of Gondor is losing and the lesser men of the north come even though it would seem they would lose. Northern Courage: "The West has failed! It is time for all to depart who would not be slain" Denethor says "Death! Death! Death! Forth Eorlingas!" Theoden cries and at 71 he rides forward into a battle he can't win without fear and his people follow their fearless and beloved king into battle and to death without fear! Denethor sees death in battle as shameful, but the Rohirrim see it as honourable and will go to their death without fear. Denethor sits in a hall far away and gives orders or does nothing, and Theoden rides forward and leads his people into battle. The Kings Men of Numenor invaded Aman in hope that it will prevent them from dying, and the Northern lesser men, ride to their death without fear! Who's more courageous? The High King's Men of Numenor, and later Dunedain of Gondor, or the lesser, Northern Men? I don't think there is any doubt.

[@Enerdhil]

Denethor's Northern Courage is just in his name:DeneTHOR😜

[@justachannel8600]

He still has no chance against Ara-ara-gorn. ... I'll see myself out.

[@TheBrothersArda]

Not to disagree too strongly, regarding the part about Denethor's situation, I would argue that it isn't simply the weight of history and Gondor's position that leaves him set up for defeat, but rather the fatalism and narcissism of the ruling steward. His refusal to involve himself in the plight of his people, his sense of his own rank and cowardice (for there is much to be said for his cowardice) set him up for defeat. Theoden's victory is hedged on his northern courage I will agree though. Honestly, Denethor is one of my least favourite characters, so that while I do find him a complex character, I find him more repulsive than the Sackville-Bagginses and even Saruman in nature.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Denethor strove with Sauron personally through the palantíri. While the stones somewhat protected him, we see when Aragorn does the same how hard and painful it is to do so. And Denethor kept going back for more. This probably accounts for his ageing prematurely. However you ascribe his motives, I don't think Denethor lacked for courage.

[@Enerdhil]

Denethor's "cowardice?" He is more like a sore loser than a coward.

[@ryanmckeon1134]

Rad!

[@matthewdunham1689]

Denethor main problem wasn't Sauron. It was his own ego and the loss of the control of Gondor.

[@semi-useful5178]

I think that as it was in the past, so too soon will there be written songs of Northern Courage.

[@chables74]

Algormancy!

[@GirlNextGondor]

All glory to the mighty algorithm! 😊

[@dominushydra]

@@GirlNextGondor i remember kissing my bosses ass for more hours. This must be the same thing with Patreon.

[@mtho_sibanda]

Dang ur smart...

[@eliscanfield3913]

I definitely like Theoden better than Denethor. Theoden may not be Numenorian, but he is the one who reads more truly noble in deeds, and less like how royalty so often were. Not that Denethor was particularly selfish, but he talked to Pippin exclusively for information, while Theoden was interested in talking to Merry about the little things that make up his normal life back home.

[@true5911]

Wow

[@LeftyScaevola]

Verily did I strike down the standard and defiance of the like button, as all true warriors of of the Westernese should.

[@dudeofdoriath1081]

🎉

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

I wish you'd do a voice over when you have tiny writing on screen. {:o:O:}