What Do Lutherans Believe? ***Bow Tie Dialogues Ep.03***

[@blakepace]

😂 I love how Keith opens these: "I'm Keith Foskey, and I'm a Calvinist". Like a Calvinist Anonymous meeting, I'm constantly saying, "Hi, Keith" in automatic response.❤

[@williammisener2389]

“I have believed in double predestination for many years. I am addicted to expository preaching.”

[@bencrane8505]

5 Lutherans and a Calvinist debate theology for an hour and 13 minutes. Hot diggity dog the KZbin algorithm is getting much better. It’s an added benefit to have two of the titans of Christian KZbin humor on together. Great video gents.

[@unit2394]

Awesome, thanks Pastor Foskey! Now everyone can watch this and become Lutheran!

[@andrewl3939]

Really appreciate Keith being so generous to my Lutheran brothers. This is the kind of discourse we need to have as the body of Christ. I know Keith fundamentally disagrees with many of the points discussed and he did a wonderful job of letting his guests answer.

[@SeanGrossICT]

The humility and patience, patience, patience displayed by Keith as they throw endless underhanded insults at Calvinists is inspiring.

[@Catholic_Papalist_Hunter]

A good dialogue, I must admit I was also a little surprised that all the Lutherans were disciplined enough not to drink beer in front of the camera.

[@jordantsak7683]

We mostly like cigars and whiskey.

[@unit2394]

I’d probably take a beer over a whiskey to be honest. Would love a cigar too, but pipe tobacco would be even better.

[@clarinetcantata]

Luther preferred wine over beer... Just sayin'

[@Catholic_Papalist_Hunter]

@@clarinetcantata nope he has also written to his wife how the beer taste somewhere else.

[@clarinetcantata]

@@Catholic_Papalist_Hunter if I remember correctly, he drank it because it was more accessible and what was offered to him. But he often complained that the other beers were not good at all, partly because they made his stomach hurt (as he said it). The only beer he liked was the one made by Katie, because it was made by his Kate, and because it didn't make his stomach hurt. He actually said once, "Beer is made by men, wine by God." Also "Yesterday I drank something which did not agree with me, so that I had to sing: If I don’t drink well I have to suffer, and yet I do like to do it. I said to myself what good wine and beer I have at home, and also what a pretty lady or (should I say) lord. You would do well to ship the whole cellar full of my wine and a bottle of your beer to me here, as soon as you are able; otherwise I will not be able to return home because of the new beer." (Luther’s Works, 50, 81) There are a few more quotes, but for the sake of this comment and my time, I'll not put them on here.

[@TJ_Loves2fish]

I very much appreciate Lutherans' willingness to hold difficult concepts in tension and/or mystery. I find myself more and more open to doing the same.

[@williammisener2389]

My parents are Lutherans, I am a Calvinist. This video has really r helped me understand what my parents believe.

[@jgeph2.4]

As a Presbyterian I really appreciate my Lutheran brothers and especially appreciate their sense of humor that’s lacking in the reformed world except for Pastor Keith of course 😂

[@ihiohoh2708]

Just know it isn't reciprocated. 😂

[@josephparks4270]

It was Calvin's overreliance on logic (and his logic is superb) and Luther's willingness to live in the mystery of "the ends not tying up," as they put it, that pushed me to Lutheranism.

[@allanyoung6231]

You clearly have not read Calvin's " Institutes of the Christian Religion".

[@mtl98-n9g]

Magisterial use of reason vs Ministerial use of reason. Is the difference.

[@jamestiffany3531]

Baby baptism is not biblical. Faith being put into a baby due to their parents' works is not biblical. Those that practice this are following man-made tradition and not the true and pure Word of God.

[@ihiohoh2708]

@@jamestiffany3531 The credobaptist position is the man-made tradition and is truly what is unbiblical. "This thing that does nothing doesn't count if it's not done this way even though it does nothing." What kind of logic is that? You will also not find any prescription of a mode of baptism in the Bible.

[@jamestiffany3531]

@@ihiohoh2708 Matthew 28:19-20 Act 2:38-41 The two most prominent sections of the scriptures that explicitly teach that anyone who receives faith in Christ and has repented are to be baptized. A baby cannot exercise these two things. Again, credobaptism is the only Biblical position. Baptizing babies are the traditions of men. If you were not baptized as an adult after being born again, then you have a false baptism.

[@jessebartunek3195]

Keith and Hans are 2 of my favorites. Thank you guys for all you do. You have helped me out of the NAR and given me great ammo to defend the move (C3PO @ Pentacostal meeting!). I am converting to Catholic (much to your displeasure I am sure) but still look to you guys for much wisdom and insight in dealing with my friends and family still stuck in the extremes of charismania!

[@johnyikes7586]

Best hour I've ever spent on you tube.

[@StevenKozarMessedUpChurch]

Great conversation!! The service that Keith is providing by being such a gracious host is invaluable. May more Christians seek to understand each other better. Less yelling-more discussing!

[@andrewbrowne5557]

Thank you Keith! Your gracious demeanor wins the day…

[@bbharat307]

He comes to us . A pretty Luthrean statement.Glory to God.

[@chanceotter8121]

I have been looking forward to this edition. My son has been attending an LCMS church while at college, and is contemplating a possible move into a Lutheran seminary post-grad, which has caused me really to do a deep dive into Lutheranism and I find myself being more attracted to the faith as defined by the Book of Concord rather than the definitions in the Westminster standards or the 3 Forms. If you have a follow up please ask about the regulative and normative principles of worship, something I have come around to agreeing with my Lutheran and Anglican brethren on.

[@unit2394]

I went to a Presbyterian college and attended a PCA church and ARP church for a year and a half respectively. I was convinced of TULIP but stumbled upon Lutheranism by accident halfway through junior year due to some disagreements with the Reformed view of images, the Sabbath, and how worship should be done. I was convinced almost instantly by the truth and beauty that I saw from Scripture and church history there. I began attending an LCMS church and was confirmed in April of this year. I hope your son will stick with Lutheranism; we’d love to have you too. God bless!

[@Outrider74]

Foskey and Fiene MUST collaborate on a video!

[@shanekahrs4776]

Thanks for giving us Lutherans a fair shake pastor Keith. Love your channel

[@catechismuk7501]

Hi Keith. Thanks for this, it was a fantastic conversation. I must admit its weird to see my own pastor Timpani Simplejockey (Thanks Hans!) In a bow tie! God bless you in your journey towards the Lutheran Confessions sir. John

[@janekrut2799]

very interesting - one thing I really appreciated? that there are some things in which we just have to trust God.

[@daryllittle7083]

Absolutely love this Keith. This is a super-helpful series. I'm learnin' stuff!

[@askme9606]

Wow, thanks for this. I look forward to other denominations (if I've missed some...well I'm Lutheran so it makes sense this is the first I watched). Great dialogue; I want to see what denominations other than my own give as answers to similar questions. And yeah, at least one of the Lutheran pastors should have had a beer!

[@wessbess]

I honestly believe if it wasn’t for eternal security, nobody would be saved. He saves us and he keeps us.

[@dman7668]

No. Once saved always saved is a lie. If you willfully sin after receiving the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

[@unit2394]

As a Lutheran I would say God preserves us in our faith and it is only by His Grace that we remain; we don’t do so by our own power. But He has chosen to allow us to resist His Grace, including by making shipwreck of our faith and cutting ourselves off from the Sacrifice that was made for us.

[@dman7668]

@@unit2394 I agree with you that we must maintain our justification and can go to an unjustified state by choosing to willfully sin against God. What convinced me of this is really revelations where it talks about people who have their names blotted out of the book of life. It doesn't say there names were never there to begin with. But there is a new heresy called everyone is going to heaven and it should be confronted when it arises.

[@unit2394]

@@dman7668 also the we are told numerous times in Scripture to persevere in our faith. I would point to passages like Galatians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, Hebrews 2:1-4, and Paul speaking about his own faith pressing on towards the Resurrection, not having obtained it yet in Philippians 3:8-16.

[@pizzahypeftw9039]

​@@dman7668 when people bring up this verse what do they mean? If i willfully sin after i got saved do my name get blotted out from the lambs book of life? am i then lost and my Justification if dependant on myself to keep myself saved by not sinning willfully? I always been terryfyed by that verse. All i know is that Christ died for me and i have repented and believed in him and my life is spendt working hard on my sanctification the rest of my life, going to church and taking the sacraments. And trusting fully in Christ and casting myself on him. All other grounds is sinking sand, i dont trust in my own repentance or faith, only in Christ alone.

[@tricot6468]

Lutherans on communion: IS MEANS IS

[@efs83dws]

I am impressed with the views expressed here. On the issue of salvation, my fellow church goers are strongly opposed to the idea of predestination. I believe in free will and predestination because the Bible proclaims both. I can not comprehend God’s mind and ways, but because He is God, I believe and trust Him. He has never failed me though I fail Him often. I believe what the Bible says. If there appears to be a contradiction, I will believe it and know that there is no contradiction in God.

[@twentyfourthrones]

Great episode! Really enjoyed it

[@rexpaden9509]

These are great Keith. Thanks for doing these.

[@rexpaden9509]

@conversationswithacalvinist I've been able to use this discussion in a conversation I am having with a brother, I know it requires a bit more work on your end, but do you think it would be possible to add timestamps to the questions you ask in future bow tie dialogues?

[@andygainor4268]

Great convo! Two of my favorite channels!

[@bodvarson1933]

I love the Lutherans. Sadly I never felt like they felt the same way.

[@sandraaugustine6255]

We love you! ❤

[@thebaker1517]

It's the German in us 🤷‍♀️

[@josephparks4270]

I was a moderately good Calvinist for decades. I am now Lutheran, and I never, and still don't, understand the hostility many Lutherans have for Calvinists. I was sort of surprised Lutherans agreed to be in this video.

[@bodvarson1933]

@@josephparks4270 I think it really comes from Luther himself. Lutherans don't just adhere to his theology unfortunately

[@PurePuritan]

​@@bodvarson1933luther was predestinarian is the funny part

[@ateamdesigns5004]

As a reformed Baptist, I really appreciated this conversation. Some things made me CRINGE, but for the most part I thought this was a great video and very insightful. May I just add, there were several things they said, that I would say I (and I would like to think Keith as well) align with, I would just use different verbiage to get there. When in reality we are mostly saying the same thing.

[@bamabry]

I have found that often the Reformed and the Luthern's have a similar belief, but use different language. Also, they often use the same language but mean very different things.

[@rantingcullinarian]

Most of what Baptists say make Lutherans CRINGE. So the feeling is mutual at least.

[@ateamdesigns5004]

@@rantingcullinarian I understand. Didn't mean it to be offensive, hope you didn't take it that way.

[@deceptionsdemise]

This was good.

[@Michael29040]

I'm at work I just saw this notification and I plan to watch when I get home tonight! I like how you make a Lutheran video after I commented on your other video about infant baptism. I read your reply and I did watch your debate with Redeemed Zoomer. Paedobaptism and baptismal regeneration are in my bones so it's really not something I'm going to be able to really give it but hearing your reasons for supporting credobaptism was interesting.

[@bkleck1]

thank you

[@glovemanjr]

I will say the thing about communion feels odd to me. To claim someone of a calvinist/catholic/zwinglian view of communion ISN'T a heretic/ condemned... but somehow they are not to take the elements or encouraged otherwise because that counts as unrighteous communion seems contradictory. Similarly, if it is not dependent on the belief for it to be consubstantiative (maybe wrong wording there) does that mean all other denominations, when practicing the Lord's Supper are bringing judgement upon themselves? It would make for more sense to deem the unrighteous communion as an act of repentance rather than arguably secondary theology, and as well to double down and say that it is heretical/damning if that is not the case. Also, if it's not dependent on the believer... why is it seemingly dependent on the church? idk just my thoughts

[@tcalbrecht]

If consistent, a Lutheran pastor would not permit a Presbyterian or Baptist to come to the communion table. However, "There is in every sacrament a spiritual relation or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified; whence it comes to pass that the names and the effects of the one are attributed to the other." Westminster Confession

[@joshuakurtenbach1972]

This is called closed communion, and it is widely practiced among Lutherans just as all the ancient Churches.

[@tcalbrecht]

​@@joshuakurtenbach1972Closed or close? It's my understanding that Lutherans practice the latter.

[@tcalbrecht]

How we do it in the PCA: "Since, by our Lord's appointment, this Sacrament sets forth the Communion of Saints, the minister, at the discretion of the Session, before the observance begins, may either invite all those who profess the true religion, and are communicants in good standing in any evangelical church, to participate in the ordinance; or may invite those who have been approved by the Session, after having given indication of their desire to participate."

[@joshuakurtenbach1972]

@@tcalbrecht they are synonyms for us.

[@unit2394]

I have encountered both closed and close Communion amongst Lutherans.

[@chrisjohnson9542]

Great conversation. This definitely helped me to better understand some of the distinctives of Lutheranism. As a reformed Baptist I am thoroughly convinced by scripture of reformed baptist distinctives. I found it very interesting the way they think about calvinists as that we somehow believe logic and reason over scripture when we try to formulate a consistent biblical doctrine because scripture interprets scripture and doesn't contradict itself. However they do the same thing, and indeed all faithful christians do that even if they are not conscious of it. I also find it interesting that they believe that infants are proffessing faith when they are baptized. It almost sounds like they want to separate faith from any form of logical reason because they believe that would somehow be carnal or something. But faith comes by hearing the word of Christ and God by His Spirit regenerates through the preaching of the gospel to work in the hearts of man. Faith absolutely is spiritual and is a gift from God. The carnal man cannot believe, it is God who regenerates a person which results in faith. Just like a dead person who is made alive starts breathing, a spiritual dead person who comes to life believes and repents. Great conversation, and very informative. I also am glad that Im a Baptist.

[@jordantsak7683]

Being a Baptist is your right and of course you can be proud of, but it is a completely wrong theology, in contrast to anything the Bible teaches. Faith is a gift and its medium is the word of God and this is perfectly revealed in infant's baptism. Everything else is a human construction. The word of God is powerful. It does not become powerful when we understand it as such.

[@chrisjohnson9542]

@@jordantsak7683 thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my comment. I hope this can be fruitful. I am a calvinist and a baptist because I am convinced by scripture here I stand I can do no other. Maybe you could help me understand something though. I take it that you are a Lutheran from your comment. I absolutely agree that faith is a gift (ephesians 2:8-9) and that God works by His Spirit through His word. But how is an infant exercising faith when they are baptized? Is it the parents faith that is being credited to the baby? We are justified by faith and faith requires hearing and believing the gospel. I know that you are familiar with the scriptures that explain these things but I will write it here so we can both look at it and interact with it. But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Romans 10:8‭-‬17 ESV I am genuinely curious and want to better understand what Lutherans believe concerning this. Your comment about a baby exercising faith in baptism doesn't really make sense to me. I would love if you could clarify this a bit. Is the infant being justified when they are baptized based on their own faith or the faith of their parents or something else? For clarification calvinists believe that regeneration preceeds faith but it is a logical order of cause. Not in time. God is the first cause, He regenerates a person causing them to be born again which results in a person repenting and believing the gospel. God works through the preaching of His word to bring this about. So an infant that is not capable of understanding and believing the gospel is not regenerated and responding in personal faith in Christ. That is where I am coming from in this question and would appreciate if you could help me understand what you believe concerning these things. Hope to hear back from you and may God bless you. With love in Christ, Chris from California

[@bamabry]

I won't respond to your second message because Jordan will be better at that, but I did want to comment on, "I found it very interesting the way they think about calvinists as that we somehow believe logic and reason over scripture when we try to formulate a consistent biblical doctrine because scripture interprets scripture and doesn't contradict itself.". I think there is a spectrum involved here. 1 would be "we don't try to understand scripture and put it together at all, just read it", 100 is "I am able to read and study all of scripture, perfectly understand everything, and perfectly tie everything together". Both 1 and 100 are wrong. 1 is not putting in the effort we are called to by pursuing God. 100 is wrong because it is elevating ourselves to God. I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle around 50. Lutheran's tend to be more like 40, they appeal to "the mysteries of God" a little too quickly for me. On the other hand, Calvinists often go too far. And it depends whether they are Baptist or Presbyterian Calvinists. Presby's put way more thought and reason into it than Baptists, but also Baptists tend to believe things are far more 'simple' than they really are. So Presby's are probably more like a 60 and Baptists more like an 80. There are times where Lutherans SHOULD put more effort into reconciling scripture, but there are also times where Calvinists should be more quick to say, "it's a mystery of God".

[@andrewborchelt305]

Chris, I know Im not the person you were talking to but i did want to take a crack at answering your question from a Lutheran perspective so you dont get left hanging. 1. baptism is a sacramental means of grace that through the power of Gods word in the sacrament creates supply his grace that creates faith in the infant. having faith is not a necessary prerequisite for baptism to a Lutheran. I understand that its typically the other way around for baptists. I would urge you to investigate what the Apostolic early church practiced as recorded in the writings of the apostolic fathers regarding this issue (that is a source external to the bible so its not as concrete as the points ill make in #2 below but it does indicate that the immediate disciples of the apostles believed in infant baptism). there is ample evidence they practiced both infant and adult baptism. 2. i think from what you are saying you do not think that infants can have faith stemming from your statement : " So an infant that is not capable of understanding and believing the gospel is not regenerated and responding in personal faith in Christ." hidden there is i think the issue: faith is not just an intellectual assent of facts, indeed the demons have intellectual assent (james 2:19). Faith is placing your trust in God, (Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Heb 11:1) an infants capacity of understanding isn't therefore a prerequisite to have gods grace creating faith in them. and infant trusts their parents implicitly and therefore trust in god can be created at that age as well. for instance, see Luke 1:41 where john the baptist leaps in the womb upon being in the presence of Mary pregnant with Jesus. the text certainly is implying that john recognized the presence of his savior at an age where he had no capacity for intellectual understanding. 3. Jesus also says to let the little childen come to him and do not hider them, and if baptism is union with christ as paul says then we should not be gatekeeping christ from infants. in the great commission he says to go and baptize all peoples it is not fitting to disobey the clear command of jesus because of our own man made logic. finally the book of acts records instances of "whole households" being baptized and it makes no distinction of age or gender. indeed in ancient rome the man was the legal owner of his wife and children and if the man converted so two would he baptize all his household, that probably included children too young for understanding in at least some cases. check out this video by a Lutheran apologist for a better articulation: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHm8Yp9rrN6mbMk. If you are interested in Lutheranism his channel is fantastic. Gods blessings on you and yours, Pax Christi, Andrew @@chrisjohnson9542

[@Truth5eeker]

Concerning one statement that we need to hear the words of Jesus when he says, " this is my body." So does that mean that I'm supposed to hate my mother and father? Like 15:26 ... hear the words of Jesus😊

[@bamabry]

In the context? Yes

[@rantingcullinarian]

Yep.

[@gumbyshrimp2606]

Yes

[@mikezeke7041]

29:15, well answered

[@joelleonard8869]

I loved the part where they explained that the book of concord is the standard for lutheran theology rather than the writings of Luther. Can someone please explain this to James White? Thanks.

[@unit2394]

Yeah, for real. But he has explicitly said he’s not interested in looking into Lutheranism to dialogue with Lutherans. I just wish he wouldn’t misrepresent us.

[@joelleonard8869]

@@unit2394 Exactly.

[@PastorBenMeyer]

Nobody explains anything to James White because he's not listening. 🤣

[@joelleonard8869]

@@PastorBenMeyer right, I forgot that it's James White's job to explain everything to everyone else.

[@DanielSlaughter-vi5hy]

It’s and LCMS standard, WELS uses Luther’s writings a lot more.

[@zebfriudenberg889]

I’m a half & half! A black coffee drinking Calvinist who’s part Baptist and part Presbyterian. This is the only way to have your cake and eat it… 😆😆😆😆 I’m also pre-mill!😂😂😂😂

[@jordantsak7683]

Baptist, Presbyterian, pre-mill...As a former Presbyterian, now a lutheran, I propose to you to study in depth the lutheran theology. You will find a comfort you never lived before. Lutheran theology is the most adamantly clear and gospel-centered theology, perfectly Christo-centric and down to earth, because of the Sacraments as means of grace and tangible gospel, here and now, not sentimentally or intellectually, but extra nos, i.e. coming to us, not us elevating us to it or pouring it out of our hearts.

[@joshnelson3344]

33:28 I was hoping they would’ve explained what exactly is the condemnation a person receives from “communing unrighteously” from a Lutheran perspective.

[@bamabry]

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

[@isaacperrigo8267]

Do Lutherans believe David lost the Holy Spirit? In RUF which is PCA we talked about the life of David as an example of how God is faithful despite our failings and never mentioned losing the Holy Spirit? Is that a common view?

[@markpreus545]

Luther in Smalcald Articles, on Repentance, “43 It is, accordingly, necessary to know and to teach that when holy men, still having and feeling original sin, also daily repenting of and striving with it, happen to fall into manifest sins, as David into adultery, murder, and blasphemy, that then faith and the Holy Ghost has departed from them [they cast out faith and the Holy Ghost]. For the Holy Ghost does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so as to be accomplished, but represses and restrains it so that it must not do what it wishes. But if it does what it wishes, the Holy Ghost and faith are [certainly] not present. For St. John says, 1 John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, … and he cannot sin. And yet it is also the truth when the same St. John says, 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

[@jacobbyarlay3420]

You have Lutheran Satire on!? What!!!

[@Ben_Hedlund]

Pr. Fiene didn’t even make it halfway through before making an analogy to dating or marriage: 26:00.

[@phil3924]

it's so interesting to see how uncompromising these Lutherans are but then there are the sparkle creed Lutherans. I think he is closer to these guys' thinking than they are to the sparkle creed Lutherans.

[@wessbess]

Also, I think it’s pretty hard to get around the golden chain of redemption.

[@shelzp7272]

One of my friends (R.I.P.) was a tax accountant and swore that the people who were the most likely to tithe were Lutherans and LDS. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Yeah, they were taking their write off but most of us do.

[@craigbenz4835]

The early segment on communion touched on it, but who in the U. S. does the LCMS have altar and pulpit fellowship?

[@PastorBenMeyer]

The AALC I don't think any others at this time, but there are ongoing conversations with the WELS that I hope will one day lead to being in Altar and Pulpit fellowship.

[@DanielSlaughter-vi5hy]

@@PastorBenMeyer WELS and ELS are in fellowship. WELS and LCMS continue to talk, but it’s never progressed.

[@PastorBenMeyer]

@@DanielSlaughter-vi5hy I pray that changes.

[@DanielSlaughter-vi5hy]

@@PastorBenMeyer Yes, LCMS unfortunately blurs the roles of men and women in the church. Deaconesses, ETC, they have let their women step up, when men don’t serve or won’t.

[@maxxiong]

33:00 I'm not sure if it is fair to accuse the person of post-modernism because it is also related to the reformed view, but yeah it makes no sense with a physical presense view.

[@JosiahM77]

"theyre lesbians... the first transvestites!" 😂 Best line ive heard in a while!

[@williamchurch9768]

The historic Calvinist position on the Lord's Supper is intricately connected to the believers union with Christ who is Fully Divine and Human. Christ is really present at His Table to strengthen the faith of the believer. The sacrament's efficacy rests with God's purpose and use of His appointed means of grace. Lutherans are welcome at the Lord's Table in most Calvinist congregations despite their differing view of the Table. Their view (erroneous, but not too far from Scripture) does not change the Lord's work with His sacrament. The Lord owns His Table, not Presbyterians, not Baptists, not Lutherans, etc.

[@adamcarmichaelsr.9488]

Great job Keith! You handled that better than I could have. If there saying it is the body and blood of Christ but at the same time it’s not trans or conSubstantial. Then who is really inconsistent in theology?

[@mtl98-n9g]

We refuse to use humanistic logic and philosophy to attempt to fit Christ’s words into a neat little box. We take Christ at His word and leave it at that.

[@he7230]

Was the whole Church wrong about the Lord's supper until Calvin and Zwingli came along?

[@torcoffee2747]

Transubstantiation isn't made official teaching until 1215 at the Fourth Latheran Council. And the Eastern Orthodox may have had similar views but not exactly the same as Rome. So what do you mean the whole church until Zwingli and Calvin?

[@he7230]

@@torcoffee2747 To my understanding, the whole church believed from the beginning, that in the Lord's supper, we receive the body and blood of Christ.

[@torcoffee2747]

@he7230 yes but that doesn't equal the Roman Catholic view of transubstantiation, that is a late development. Check out the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215

[@he7230]

@@torcoffee2747 Yes, the formal exposition of transubstantiation came later, but before that everyone still believed in bodily presence.

[@jordantsak7683]

@@torcoffee2747 , the day a theological belief takes an official stance does not mean it was the first time it was...invented!!! The church always had this idea of the sacrament. Lutherans just made it more clear when we said the man is forgiven and saved only in Christ, only by faith, all perceived as free gifts. Calvin made the sacrament seem like an extra-terrestrial idea and Zwingli completely destroyed it as just a symbol of our faith and a command, a new law without any true meaning. The EO church perceives exactly as the RCC but it does not try to express it with aristotelian terminology.

[@edrymaths9464]

Who needs a sweater vest when you've got a bowtie?

[@theLutheran1]

Hans and the Sons of Rolf

[@LightOfAllMankind]

Oh how I miss that good ol Lutheran pointedness

[@gigahorse1475]

38:42 This reminded me to give a like 🤣

[@crushedrighthand3090]

So do Lutherans believe that going to church and hearing the Word is the way they are continually being saved? If they miss a few sermons, do they lose their faith?

[@jordantsak7683]

Let me explain with my poor english. We say that our spiritual food is the word of God, every day. In the Bible, in sermons, in baptish, in holy communion, in absolution. We are depended upon God's word. Everything is grace, everything is forgiveness, a gift, coming to us through faith, also a gift. We are absolutely sure and secure in our baptism. But, as kids need food, we continually need God's word of law and gospel, that we are sinners and we are forgiven.

[@unit2394]

As my brother below has said, we are secure in our Baptism; but I would say that there is an element of continual justification/salvation being applied to us through the Means of Grace in Word and Sacrament. It’s like when we pray the Lord’s Prayer. We are continually asking for forgiveness of sins and deliverance from evil. I would say that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. If you’ve ever heard somebody talk about the “already/not yet” view in terms of Scripture and Theology, it’s a lot like that.

[@anotherxredeemed]

Most fascinating bit so far: Brad Pitt is actually a hilarious Lutheran pastor.

[@phil3924]

If you do it with the Methodists everybody has to wear a pink shirt or dress.

[@mpkropf5062]

He should do a group of Catholic Priests! 😂

[@isaacperrigo8267]

I am a little confused why they wouldn’t let you eat and drink from the table. They said their view is true regardless of what you believe. Wouldn’t they want you to partake? As far as I understand, the warnings don’t seem to be about believing the correct thing about the table, but about being a Christian. What level of understanding and agreement does someone have to have about the Lords Supper to partake. I am sure not every lay person has the same understanding as them and I don’t they are bringing judgment among themselves.

[@bamabry]

Because a key part of partaking is discerning the Lord's body. If you don't understand the proper view of the Lord's Supper, you CAN'T discern the body correctly. And in a good Lutheran church, you have to go through catechism before you can partake of the Lord's Supper. So you DO have a full understanding of it. That's different for those of us that were raised in Baptistic denoms where that isn't the case. The other side of it is how he started the conversation. "what are you looking for when you approach the table? That isn't being offered". Baptists SHOULDN'T WANT to partake at a Lutheran church because it is fundamentally different than what the Baptist is trying to do.

[@mpkropf5062]

It’s same as in Roman Catholic if you are not Catholic you can’t partake because you have to have the same theology belief.

[@scripturelife89]

So I got kinda confused on the baptism subject. Where they saying that in order to be saved you need to believe and be baptized? Or that baptism is for obedience to Gods word after salvation?

[@ajpreus]

We were saying you need to believe and be baptized. We were also explaining that baptism, as the Word of Christ, delivers faith and regeneration. So believing and being baptized go together just as hearing the gospel and faith are inseparable. Good question. Thanks for asking!

[@scripturelife89]

@@ajpreusthanks for the response. I’ve grown up IFB my whole life and just this past year or so I’m leaning more towards reformed theology. It’s been a great learning experience.

[@bethvaughn4231]

The verse about whenever two or more .. is not about worship. It is about church discipline. If you read it in context, it is obvious. My mother misquoted it all the time! I used to do that too.

[@markpreus545]

Worship is faith and prayer. We pray “forgive us our trespasses.” Also, the loosing of sins is what creates faith (worship). So I think you’re defining it too narrowly.

[@bamabry]

I can't find it, so this is a paraphrase, but for me the highlight was, "you guys stole Baptist as a name and you don't even believe in baptism!"

[@unit2394]

Yeah that bit made me laugh quite a bit. Because it’s true.

[@the1der]

They lost me when they went into the weeds with The Literal position in the sacraments. 🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲 28:25 time-point give or take Also, is it bad on me that im ruffled that there's these ppl preaching that one can lose his salvation if he was truly born again? In other words, if one is TRULY born again and as I would put it-"been given faith", that person is not guaranteed to persevere?? Thank you for this interview, because it sheds light on very hot button issues I believe in. The answer is - you were never a real one if you fall away because your faith was self proclaimed and not planted internally, not God given, which otherwise would lead to a true and pure profession. It kind of irks me that ppl sit under these doctrines. Just being honest.

[@bamabry]

And what do you do with their rebuttal of what you just said? "We've all known people that seemingly expressed true faith with a pure confession AND had good works, who then fell away. How do you know that isn't you?"?

[@the1der]

@@bamabry i cant explain to you what it's like being in my shoes and knowing God the way I do, but the scriptures allude to it, such as, 2nd Cor 5:17 puts it, so it is, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away." Idk about you, but I know this as a reality!

[@bamabry]

@@the1derIndeed! And I know people that have said and known that as a reality, who are not apostate

[@the1der]

@@bamabry I'm quite upset. I wrote a response to you and then when I edited it it would post and I had to discard. By the way, in summary- what I had stated was I know that I am sealed with the Holy spirit, which has implications according to the scripture I am referencing. And besides that, you're not the only one who has seen people fall away from. But you lead with the premise that I do not agree with, which is, that people have departed have shown or appeared to be true converts. Now, in all honesty, the few that I have met that have done that, have also shown me over time or having spent any time with them or talked with them that they weren't as solid as you make it appear. In these particular scenarios, I have seen or heard from these ppl either actions or talk that have led me to hold questions in my mind about them being truly converted. So mentioned a very famous KZbin Star Joseph Solomon, who, like you, I debated w in the comment sections on a couple of occasions about doctrinal matters etc.. Well, he told me his positions, that he knew what he was talking about, that he had read this book and that and so on. Well, if you dont know, a few years ago, and a year or two post my debates w/ him, he released a video announcing his departure from the faith and that "Christianity wasnt for him." So personally in my life and even in interactions w well known professing "Christians" there has been hints that they weren't a real one. Long story short, you can say that they had a Faith, but NOT TRUE FAITH. There's a difference and Im sure you are aware of the difference. If you or others never know the beauty of being made new from the inside out, I wouldn't expect you to understand my position of once saved always saved and the Perseverance of the Saints. I wish you did! God Bless.

[@bamabry]

@@the1der I get what you're saying. I truly do. But it doesn't answer the question. Saying "Well, years later I realized they weren't as solid as I had thought", doesn't hold much water. I have personally known people that were far more mature in their faith, spoke far more strongly, had much more solid theology, etc. etc. all of the markers the Bible tells us of the outward appearance of Christians, who then fell away. The only Baptist answer to that is, "well, they were never actually saved. They were never actually one of us". To which, we'd respond, "sure, okay. But they appear to be just as much as you do. So how can you be sure? You can only answer with a "feeling", which doesn't hold water biblically.".

[@oboylebeast]

Jordan Cooper makes me consider becoming lutheran, but these guys do the opposite. I'm not a fan of the way they communicate. I have come to accept their view on communion as valid, but I probably side more with Calvin. Lutherans have a lot to offer. Its too bad they close their table to other traditions.

[@jordantsak7683]

Jordan Cooper is a lutheran pastor and he says the same on the lutheran basics with these pastors. For us, the problem with Calvin's holy communion teaching is that he points on the sky, somewhere above us and far away of us. For us, lutherans, the incarnation still continues, it is still among us, here and now, in baptism, word, bread and wine, absolution.

[@oboylebeast]

Yeah, I know he agree with the same points. I listen to him a lot. He is in my top 5 theologians for sure. Probably top 2 if Im being honest. I guess I just didn't enjoy the tone. Probably too many voices and that makes it hard for me to properly connect to the speakers. I'm still not toally in calvins camp. I fall somewhere saying, that CHRIST is present in communion, but I will leave it at that. Is it the body and blood? Maybe. Is that symbolism? Maybe. I just know that communion is probably the most important part of my Lords day gathering. I'm grateful to have found a more sacramentally minded baptist congregation. I think Zwingli's view really borders on being heretical. But, even he couldn't deny that there was something special about communion. Zwingli was still a Godly man, and I'm sure him and Luther hugged it out in heaven.

[@unit2394]

@@oboylebeast Jordan Cooper kind of is the reason I’m Lutheran (also God’s Word lol). I discovered him by accident and was rapidly convinced of Lutheranism. Also to your point about Zwingli, there are some accounts that say even though Luther refused to shake Zwingli’s hand, he didn’t hate him, and they got on well other than on this issue. He just did not want to be in Union with him because he viewed him as departing from the Christian view of Christ’s Natures in connection with the Eucharist.

[@oboylebeast]

If Lutherans were charismatic, I would probably have a hard time not joining lol. It's hard enough to find a more reformed group that is open to it. Jordan Cooper is a blessing to me. He has helped to change my view on somethings and I have been encouraged to read the writings of the early post-apostle church. I still think more calvinistic in soteriology, but find the lutheran view to be well founded. I pray that finding lutheran theology brings you closer to our LORD.

[@oboylebeast]

Unfortunately, that is what I have found too. The synods that are open enough to allow charismata, are also the ones that allow women ministers and other unbiblical garbage. There are some solid presbyterian churches that allow charismata, but they are hard to find. On the plus side, I have found a church that is good. Believers in CHRIST that show each other love. They disciple each other and have strong focus on the gospel. Our elders are made up of a greek professor, a pastor known for teacher other pastors expository teaching, a judge, and a lawyer. A huge wealth of knowledge and wisdom between them. So, I will take that over liberal theology any day.

[@Ironica82]

Any Lutherans out there, please answer this question: How can we eat slavery? How can slavery be present in something that we eat? I ask this cause I notice that a lot of people miss out on what the entire Passover meal is and how each element represented a part of the Exodus. Part of the Passover is to eat a bitter herb to represent how the Jews were in slavery in Egypt. Another part would be unleavened bread to represent how quickly they had to leave Egypt. Having the entire context of the meal that they were partaking in, Jesus basically added to the meal. Since the entire meal are elements that represents aspects, they would all be in that mindset of elements that represents other things when Jesus stated that the bread would be His body and the wine would be His blood. When doing this, He stated to do this in remembrance of Him (Luke 22:19 & 1 Corinthians 11:23-25). When God first initiated the Passover, He clearly stated, "This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast." (Exodus 12:14) Also, in Deuteronomy 16:3, God states, "You shall eat no leavened bread with it. Seven days you shall eat it with unleavened bread, the bread of affliction-for you came out of the land of Egypt in haste-that all the days of your life you MAY REMEMBER the day when you came out of the land of Egypt." So, they were eating a meal that was purely about elements that symbolized something that they were to remember. Jesus then added two more items and stated to do this in remembrance (just like the entire meal before those statements were). Seeing the historical context of the Passover meal, why do you now state that Jesus meant it literal if none of the previous elements were taken as a literal meaning? Not trying to bash ya. Tiss a genuine question. I have seen too many times people understanding verses incorrectly as they take out the historical context/culture and try to interpret it with modern eyes (I have been guilty of this as well).

[@andrewgerike5430]

They were set free from slavery not by a symbol but by the lamb whose blood was literally placed upon their door and whose very flesh they ate. That’s not a symbolic remembrance of the deliverance from slavery, the eating of the flesh of the lamb is directly tied to the blood upon the door which spared the Israelite firstborn from death. That they were spared while the firstborn of the Egyptians died is the basis for Pharaoh driving them out.

[@Ironica82]

@@andrewgerike5430 That does not explain how slavery is eaten when they ate the bitter herb. Also, does that mean the same actual lambs were eaten throughout the centuries?

[@andrewborchelt305]

i would argue you have your typology backwards. the whole bible and history of gods people points to christ so if any part of the Passover is symbolically a part of the Eucharist it is because it was foreshadowing the Eucharist not the Eucharist adding to the meaning of the Passover meal. indeed that is obvious when you look at the exodus story where a lambs blood spares Gods people from death. they even consume the flesh of the sacrificial lamb much like in the Eucharist.

[@SeanusAurelius]

Isn't eating a bitter thing a small but very literal amount of affliction?

[@TheOtherCaleb]

Did Andrew call Arminians heretics? Has he not read Chemnitz, Hunnius, or Gerhard? They nearly 100% agreed with Arminius on predestination and election. Also, have any of these men read Arminius? They sound like they have no idea what he taught.

[@jtwegson4406]

Great discussion, I noticed one of them just for a second seem to quote Luke 13: 34 incorrectly... I tried to relisten to find the point where he said it but I couldn't find it again... Here is what I was talking about kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJjTkGeKp96bqdE I'm not saying that these all we're not men of God or anything just simply that I noticed it. They all seem to really fully on scripture and that goes a long way in my book.

[@allanyoung6231]

I look at the Lutheran church as part Reformed and part Roman. Lurher just couldn't let go of Catholicism completely as he should have done.

[@allanyoung6231]

@atticusboman4444 Sola Scriptura ! You know where you can stick your Popish nonsense and traditions.

[@mwdiers]

@@allanyoung6231 How very charitable of you.

[@allanyoung6231]

@@mwdiers I have no time for Rome and Popish heretics who come here to spread false teaching. Such people get what they deserve.

[@ihiohoh2708]

@atticusboman4444 In the early church it is evident that church fathers were iconoclast, so I'm not certain about that aspect of Lutheran tradition. Perhaps you could educate me to the justification on that. However, I would say you're right. I think many of the Reformers went too far. I see nothing wrong with tradition so long as it doesn't corrupt the gospel or Scripture. I appreciate that Luther's intention was to reform the church and not "restart" it. I would love nothing more than to be united again as the Catholic church.

[@ihiohoh2708]

@@allanyoung6231 Are we to be true to Scripture or simply be as "non" - Catholic as possible?

[@andrewgerike5430]

Calvinists: You Lutherans are just diet-Catholics and cannibals who need to let go of medieval superstitions. Also Calvinists: Why won’t you commune us?!

[@unit2394]

Lol

[@gigahorse1475]

That’s not in the video

[@adamcarmichaelsr.9488]

No unbaptized believer? How about that, only believers are baptized…

[@jaywest2806]

So much cancer of Romanism sadly remains in our lutheran brothers

[@nimanderoftheleaf]

LOL

[@jordantsak7683]

Who said romanism and hellenism is only bad. The truth remained there and lutherans took it out, cleared it and stay firm on that. Come with us.

[@falsouth762]

@@jordantsak7683 well said!

[@DanielSlaughter-vi5hy]

Such as ?

[@mpkropf5062]

Take a look at the denominations that rejected anything Catholic! They are all in a terrible mess and getting further and further away from God!! Thank God Luther strove to be like the First Century! You will never find anything resembling of the First Century in any denomination is why I left it