What do Space Marines need in the Data Balance Slate | Space Marines

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Looking at the Space Marine Codex and seeing what Space Marines need for the new Balance Dataslate. This is for the current Space Marine Codex. Space Marines in Warhammer 40k 10th edition
What do Space Marines need in the Data Balance Slate | Space Marines #warhammer #40k #warhammer40k

[@desitri2956]

you know what would fix them? another primaris lieutenant

[@PandamanPete]

Unironically I'd love a Primaris Lieutenant with Jump Pack lol

[@JohnDoe-rp7mf]

how about a lieutenant in terminator armor?

[@michaeltei4173]

@@JohnDoe-rp7mf Lt in term is actually a good idea

[@98765zach]

They need to fucking sell the combi weapon LT without making me buy Sternguard and an apothecary Biologis every time I want one.

[@michaeltei4173]

@@98765zach gees man, how many Lt with Combis u need my guy? I got one. never ever used it

[@xeticus5435]

I want Heavy Intercessors Sergeants to get a decent melee weapon the way regular Intercessors can.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

I forgot about them lacking a melee option!

[@xeticus5435]

@@BlackJackalGaming One of the reasons why they aren't used as much I think. 3 attacks each is nice but only str 4 and no AP.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

@@xeticus5435 yeah at least give them S5

[@inquisitorMence]

Can't. The model doesn't have one so the unit won't. They need to adjust the points to account for this, or upgrade all gravis units to S6 Ap0 in line with their toughness.

[@kahldris1228]

That would really help their combat!

[@mali5698]

You know what Sternguard REALLY need? All of their goddamn weapon options back. Independent Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, Grav-Guns, Flamers, Stormbolters, Grav-Cannons, Plasma Cannons, etc. etc. They are the masters of ranged combat, so let them take *any* ranged weapon they may need! The model update neutered them just as much as the rules update did.

[@Jorgon01]

The leviathan booklet had rules for different combi-weapons. No idea why GW threw that out.

[@william9557]

​@@Jorgon01because "SiMpLiFiEd NoT sImPlE"

[@jcoe371]

They could at least give the option of which "anti" keyword the weapons get. Maybe changing the to anti (your choice) +3 rather than just anti infantry 2

[@chriscannon7065]

@@Jorgon01most likely due to pre adjustment balance. If I remember correctly, the combi-melta had 24” range, anti-vehicle 4+, melta 2, devastating wounds, rapid fire. Imagine a squad of 10 stern guard firing in half range at a vehicle with the original Oath of Moment (Reroll hits/wounds).

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Space Marines are hoping to get a big bump in the next data slate. Watch nothing happen...again.

[@carolineturingds]

I've been playing Blood Angels Gladius competitively since 10th dropped. I think hoping for a big push to marines in the upcoming dataslate/points is a bit of a wishful thinking... but I do agree GW has pretty much hit marines with a "meh, they're good enough I guess" for almost all of the edition so far. It really does feel like GW only pays attention to SM whenever something stands out for being good, while paying no attention to all the other lackluster units in the roster.

[@william9557]

​@@carolineturingdsand they only nerf units Centurion teleporting shenanigans in ONE detachment? 15 point increase on cents. Now they're unplayable

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Also, there was an increase in inceptors, scouts and the whirlwind. Plus we already had the increase to scouts and the firestrike enhancement.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

100% this. The last 2 editions have seen them sat firmly in the poor bracket, apart from the odd blip with 1 detachment.

[@carolineturingds]

@@william9557 haha yeah... god forbid SM have a decent long range unit x)

[@user-et6ek3ci9t]

1st company definitely needs a re-write

[@scapegoatboy69]

Or for the Veteran keyword to be added to a lot of different models across different SM codexes.

[@Michaelkayslay]

Agreed. Isn't 1st company meant to be the best ? Their detachment sucks

[@magicalzonkey]

'Sustained shits' on incursors sounds miserable 😂

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Hahahaha did I typo there?

[@magicalzonkey]

@@BlackJackalGaming I thought you put it in as a test to see if people were paying attention 😝

[@BlackJackalGaming]

@@magicalzonkey nope, I've been howling about it since you pointed it out. Hilarious!

[@magicalzonkey]

@@BlackJackalGaming gave me a nice chuckle too!

[@THEHOLYCHAINSWORD]

I mean they can have my ibs if they want I'm willing to trade rules

[@halfdragonhal]

The armor of contempt isn't a substitution for transhuman . There's to meany 2/3 damage weapons that single handedly wipe out a whole unit of spacemarines. When they were strength 6/7 a few units survived, but with the jump in toughness, so did a lot of weapons, so they wound on 2s now . After the antitank firing takeout the tanks it just picks up spacemarines bodies.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

The problem is that everything in the game is designed with space marines in mind so they're generally the perfect profiles into them

[@AsgardMedic]

For bladeguard i'd love to see their ability changed to reroll hit tolls of 1 for hit/wound/save/inv save. Don't need all, but rather more flexibility, as that reroll 1s to hit was kinda useless against oath targets anyway

[@william9557]

Yeah a lot of rules don't mesh with oaths at all, and all the good "killy units" are what you'd want to combine with oaths

[@rickdriver0]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything regarding Vanguard/Phobos, I love my Raptors 🤘🏻

[@BlackJackalGaming]

They need a bit of love. If you aren't going to make them hit harder in melee or Ranged, then at least make them more durable.

[@jcoe371]

What would help me is to give Vulkan He'stan the ability to ride in an implusor.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

That would be useful! Just add a note to SM that leaders gain tacticus keyword if they join a unit that has it

[@austibon]

Give me incentive to play codex marines is all I want, or remove non-compliants entirely. Tired of receiving nerfs or nothing because of how non-compliants are performing.

[@THEHOLYCHAINSWORD]

I, as a black templar, feel that sense the chaos marines that aren't in the codex with the other legions don't get their detachments. non complaints shouldn't get the compliant chapters' detachments as their non compliant. The whole point is they fight differently then everyone else

[@austibon]

@THEHOLYCHAINSWORD Yea that is so far the most confusing part of all this. Some people said it was fair because Chaos was just waiting until the codex released. That argument got quiet pretty quick

[@m33ddyhv]

Terminators need a buff

[@Paradukes]

I think the Anvil Siege Force needs either a strat or an addendum to the army rule that lets units move at up to half their normal speed while still counting as stationary. They have the shooting capacity, but what they need is _some_ mobility.

[@ARC1701A]

Rules and models for Chapter Serfs. Automatic Plasma Grenade Launchers. Deathwatch Stealth Armor. Updated Primaris Techmarines. Chaos Primaris Space Marines. Cyborg Attack Dogs. Cyborg Attack Dog Cavalry. Chief Apothecary models. Chemical Weapons Space Marines / Primaris Destroyers. Updated models for Tyberos the Red Wake and Gabriel Seth.

[@ArcusArmis19]

I think they need to add somthing to really differentiate Codex Chapters from the Non Codex Chapters. I dont think they should take anything away from the Divergent chapters, rather give stuff to the compliant ones, whether that be an extra buff to Oath for codex compliants as a whole, or something tasteful and fun for each chapter individually (Like Iron Hands getting slightly better vehicles, Salamanders getting slightly better flame weapons, Raven Gaurd getting buffs to Phobos units.) Lean into the lore and give us all somthing small

[@notknightbean]

Imagine if the first company detachment just handed you a feel no pain. And if you used a codex detachment with no secondary marine units, ie no units from dangles or blands or templars, you got old oath back.

[@tdlainc.4737]

All bolters across all armies having the same Str 4 ap-1 profile. So Bolters, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Carbines, Etc All become, Range 24", A 2, Str 4, AP -1, D 1 with Heavy/Assault profiles Combi-Bolter/Storm Bolter, Range 24" A 2, Str 4, Ap -1, D 1 with Heavy/Assault/Rapid fire 2 Specialty bolters like those on the Centurions, Land raider crusader, Repulsor Just get max shots out to 24" So Centurions becomes A6, Str 4, Ap -1, D 1, Heavy/Assault/Twin-linked Hurricane bolters become A12 Str 4 Ap -1, D 1, Heavy/Assault/Twin-linked Repulsor, A18, Str 4, Ap -1, Heavy/Assault They all share the same dam ammo.

[@markhohenbrink5230]

Technically, they don't all use the same ammo if you look at SoB and Guard. They use the smaller caliber patterns, so they should be weaker than Astartes bolt weapons. It would also be a major buff to SoB, who is already looking to be really good.

[@ancientmariner9460]

What do the Marinaros need ? 1) Weapon upgrades - ranged and melee for every Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, Chaplain, Librarian - Primaris, Phobos, Gravis - all of them. Master crafted of courss and as for sidearms - Plasma Pistol, Inferno Pistol, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Hand Flamer. Maybe Storm shield should require you to have Power Weapon, but the sidearm should be your choice. At the same point little restriction would be needed - Librarians and Chaplains - Shield + chosen sidearm, as they have their dedicated and staple weapons. Phobos should have an option to chose between Chainsword and Power Weapon + sidearm 2) Bolter weapons of every type min. AP1 By lore, Bolters have diamond-tipped,armour piercing high explosive rounds, easly punching through Marines armour while in game, they're one of the worst infantry weapons avaible... 3) Phobos units - at least a grenade launcher - 1 per 5 models and once per battle free grenade stratagem Why cheaper scouts have Missle Launchers, Heavy Bolters and Sniper Rifles while more expensive and more "elite" or rather commando, that usually are behind enemy lines, units don't is unbelievable silly. 4) Infiltrators - Marksman Carabine gaining Precision As name suggest - for providing precise fire 5) Reivers - Carabine loosing Precision but getting Rapid Fire 1 or 2, Combat Blade getting AP1 or S5, and option to take Carabine with Combat Blade Being able to get close and cover enemy with a hail of bullets before charging sounds like a good tactic for terror troops 6) Incursors - getting ability to plant their mine and remotely detonate it, causing on 4+ 1MW to every model in the 2, maybe 3" radius, Carabines - ignore all to hit modifiers Throwing mine like a grenade is silly, but using it like somewhat Claymore seems more reasonable. 7) Sternguards - their weapon options - meltas, grav guns, plasmas etc. They were fine, for unknown reason they lost their elite status... 8) Terminators - Storm Bolters AP1 or remove Rapid Fire and giving it anty-infantry 4+ devastating wounds. From lore perspective, SB are shreading through most things, so at least anti-infantry wold reflect that. 9) Terminators - again - heavy weapon options - Plasma Cannon, Las Cannon, Multi-melta + buffing Heavy Flamer and Auto Cannon. Usually dropped straight into the fray and against the odds, a CHAPTER'S ELITE should be equipped to be able to deal with anything on the spot. Heavy Flamer should get buff to S6 - like the Sternguard's Pyrecannon has or give it 2d6 hits instead (t's heavy for a reason duh...) Autocannon is designed to rip and tear through infantry so having it anti-infantry keyword would make sense... 10) Terminators - again ain - Weapon skill and Ballistic skill hitting on 2+ and Chainfists on 3+ (maybe someday Combi-weapons hitting 3+ also) They are the best of the best, hand-picked for that to create CHAPTER'S ELITE and their combat abilities should reflect that... 11)Eliminators - Increasing number to at least 5, preferably 6 or giving their weapons 2 attacks 3 is just a wee bit too low number therefore not too useful/reliable. 12)Outriders - Giving them at least a powerful version of Chainsword (like Vanguard Vets have, with S5) or regular Power Weapons - S5 AP2 W1. OR giving them 2d3 MW on charge per model in engage range, like Jump Intercessors. They would be better but not OP with such weapon options and certainly more useful. Alternatively those MW - if an armoured Marine weights around a 1 ton(lore), then a marine + such bike would hit like a Dodge Ram 3500 when charging plus in engage range you'll rarely fit a whole unit of bikes... Lastly, fixing that bloody BLAST keyword. It's incredibly stupid, that it works right now, it reminds me 17th century naval combat - you park side to side, lit the cannons for a broadside salvo, see how many cannons will fire, see how many will hit, see how much damage is being dealth... Or Wile E. Coyote and his ACME shenanigans working as they feel like to... I mean, you don't fire D3 grenades from a grenade launcher, you fire one and it created AoE and that AoE hits not the projectile itself... Blast should be basically a Torrent but with +1 hot every 5 models. The person that created this current abomination never even played with firecrackers, not to mention, throw a real grenade.

[@william9557]

I was with you 100% until you got to blast I think what they're trying to emulate is that a grenade launcher has the rough capability to hit up to 3 people, plus an extra person per 5 people due to it exploding and throwing shrapnel everywhere, and the more bodies you have in smooshed together, the higher chance of hitting something. The d3 isn't representative of them shooting 3 grenades It's representative of the potential to hit 3 people. Could it change though? Yes. Initial 1d3 automatic hits (like you suggested with the torrent thing) + 1d3 hits per 5 people in squad. That way, it feels threatening against hordes So I do see where you going

[@ancientmariner9460]

@@william9557 You do agree with me on Blast - be it D3+D3 like you've said or be it like I see it D3+1, doesn't matter. Now you roll for number of attacks, next how many attacks do hit and then how many hits wound and it should be number of hits and straight to wounding.

[@Delta285]

What you need in is a "rapid fireing line" strat for Anvil. A battle tacitc that simply counts as "not having moved" so you can have heavy gravis units advance then shoot with the +1 to wound. He'll I just thought of this. How about for all other infantry if all models have an eligible target, they get +1 to wound. This of it as a bunch of marines rushing to a position and setting up a gun line or hard point

[@chrisbeau76]

When GW dropped Chapter tactics, they killed certain armies like White Scars, Ravenguard, etc... The only thing you get for choosing a Chapter is access to Epic characters. GW stated that 10th Edition Detachments were going to represent all the Codex compliant Chapters so you didn't have to worry about color scheme. Bring back Chapter Tactics for Codex Chapters. Dark Angels despite all the extras, is an awful supplement. A lot of AP -1, especially on the DW Knights. The new Inner Circle Companions feel rushed and unfinished. For example, why does the unit have an Icon Bearer without any rules? The DW Terminators got neutered when GW took away their assault weapons. When taking Space Marine Codex data sheets, the only ones that gain Deathwing are a pirinted list of units, no charactersm, with the exception of the Bladeguard Veterran Ancient and Terminators. Captains and Lts that take the weapon and shield loadout in order to join Bladeguard who do have the Deathwing keyword. Sure the Captain and the Lt will eventually gain Deathwing when they attach to a unit of Bladeguard, but at that point the Captains and the Lt can't take any Inner Circle Enchancements because they gained the Deathwing keyword during deployment. Gain Ravenwing is fine when taking Space Marine Data sheets. the unit either needs to have the mounted keyword or Vehicle,Fly. The problem is that all the Ravenwing Datasheets in the actual Dark Angels supplement have a 5++. However, when using Space Marine Data sheets like the Storm Speeders which will gain Ravenwing, well it doesn't really do that much like it did in 9th. They used to also gain the 5++ and there are no rules attached to the Ravenwing or Deathwing keywords, which is why I think players are constantly using detachments outside their supplement. TIt doesn't help that their unique data sheets are quite weak, Inner CIrcle Companions are a good example. Fragile, while wielding Giant Two handed Swords that have AP -1....the 2 cultist characters in the Dark Commune unit in the CHaos Space Marine list are welding two handed swords which are AP -2 and they are just human mortals... As usual the first 4-5 Codices, when 10th edition launched are showing a different rules writing style. Codices started to get better with the launch of Orks, but what justifies a Codex gaining X number of detachments? Orks started with 8. Is GW going by subfactions? If so, this didnt happen with Necrons. They have 6 Ancient Dynasties from 9th edition that all have a different playstyle. Why didn't they do that like they said they would starting with Space Marines when they said they were ditching subfactions. CHaos Space Marines is another well written COdex. I'm still curious why they also got 8 detachments... while Sisters got 4 and their is some real concern about Sisters being too strong. More Detachments doesn't necessarily mean a Faction is going to outperform, it just nice to have some additional choices. I think we are starting to see some subtle power creep as the edition slowly drudges onwards...

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Yep, they haven't given some of the detachments enough options, with a focus on Phobos/Mounted just means that you're limited to what you can do.

[@lohikaarmeherra-1753]

So many good ideas here. Shame none of them are going to happen, we’ll just get more point changes…

[@lohikaarmeherra-1753]

…And here we are.

[@tonybayer2546]

What they need are actual stat buffs on struggling units, not just points decreases. GW just wants everyone to have a horde army, if your units suck don't worry, they'll make their points so low that maybe they'll be good if you have more of them.

[@Infinity_Coda]

Non-compliant chapters shouldn't be supplements. They should have been stand alone codexes with their own army rule and detachments, and had army roster tradeoffs of losing access to some or even most core marine units in exchange for having their own unique units.

[@michaeltei4173]

If you were going to make the absolutely most shooting focused army you could do, what would it be? Which detachment. No melee units at all. Straight shooting firepower!

[@F_N_Inquisitor]

My thoughts: Oath of Moment should switch to reroll wounds instead of hits Make 1st company more killy with strats rather than more durable. Improve combi-weapons to either a 3+ or 2 shots Give Assault Terminators' weapons That what i can think of off hand

[@BlackJackalGaming]

That would all work quite well.

[@F_N_Inquisitor]

@@BlackJackalGaming too bad they did none of that though lolz

[@BlackJackalGaming]

@@F_N_Inquisitor well nuts, looks like we're back to kicking dirt!

[@Paradukes]

I'm pretty sure the reason Impulsors can still only carry Primaris troops is Devastator Squads. Not that I think it's an outrageous combo, but I suspect they were afraid of having Impulsors with 4x las cannons or multi meltas.

[@jakekillify]

I do not like your suggestion to remove the ability to take codex detachments from non-compliant chapters. For example the Dark Angels are *only* held up right now by their ability to use Ironstorm. When they use any of the Dark Angels detachments, their Win Rate drops sharply to even lower than Codex Space Marines, because their unique options certainly do not "reign supreme" over codex units, they are actively harmful to a list with the sole exception of Azreal. It might be hard to do, but GW needs to find a way to balance codex space marines without robbing non-compliant chapter of options, or the problem simply moves to another army.

[@Youschnoob649]

I’d love to see bolt weapons in general go up to strength 5, and all have at least ap 1

[@yaboi69420]

Mmmh heavy bolt rifles

[@JB-kh7eb]

My issue with anvil is that there's so few weapons with natural heavy and many are not great - still barely working at +1 to wound. The list is basically; -scout heavy and sniper -eliminators -eradicators -suppressors -devastators -t shirt cannon guys -heavy laser destroyers -intercessors -hellblasters And that's it.

[@JB-kh7eb]

I forgot infiltrators

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Oh 100%. An absence of heavy on the heavy weapons makes this slightly weak

[@albinonoodle5229]

A option for a cheap expendable transport that can transport a 10 man squad, the impulser being stuck at a cap of 6 makes it such a weird option for anything you might want to put in it. Which leaves you with an repulsor for 190 points or for an extra 50 points a far better land raider but now your transport is more important than the troops you are trying to move.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Yeah, the cap needs pushing to 10 for the impulsor. No reason for it to be so small.

[@halfdragonhal]

The impulser fire power went down alot . Infact alot of guns in spacemarine data sheet became worst but toughness and body's went up.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

@halfdragonhal yep a lot of small changes that downgraded SM o really.

[@maxmagnus377]

Letting divergent chapters use the standard detachments and not differentiating the points cost of standard marine units per divergent chapter was a huge mistake. They can't buff those detachments or units too much or Templars (for instance) get too good. Until they split these up I'm afraid that the non-divergent marines won't ever be great. Also, as a frequent Eldar player, from my perspective your melee is more than fine. If my *melee specialists* fail to kill your regular intercessors (which they will, all being D1) then 3 or 4 basic guys hitting them back with their 3 basic attacks wreak absolute havoc.

[@Djones0125]

Either decrease some of our units cost or give us a buff. Nothing crazy, like +1 to strength or damage.

[@Payomeke]

I love the sustained shits for incursors.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Pray to papa nurgle

[@alphmar3778]

oh hey, everyone was surprised when they only get nerfs, wow, how cool!

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Pretty standard for SM since the start of 9th.

[@mortenbrandtjensen6470]

The whole point is to touch as little as possible on the datasheets. People wants to keep using their codexes and cardboard cards. So big changes are unlikely. It is possible to see new detachments. Though perhsps folks would be upset with that as well. The ideas of changing assault terminators as you suggest seems both too good and as a big change tonthe datasheet.

[@TheMoist0ne]

I feel like a lot of the problem is GW seems to be balancing the SM divergent chapters nerfing SM core units and abilities, rather than balancing the divergent chapters by nerfing the divergent specific units. How is it Blood Angels, Space wolves, Black Templars, and Deathwatch can be at 55-59% win rate, while normal SM are down at 44?

[@PepsiMagt]

Ger ready to be dissapointed.

[@Druzzt]

Pure White Scars player here. It bugs me sooo much that "the WS" stratagem was designed to be played with space wolves. Still, most SW players bought 12+ thunderwolves to play the detach, so that wouldnt make them happy at all. divergent chapters being able to choose gladius only would be nice, or otherwise give a better oath to vanilla marines (like rerrolls also to hit). And outriders are plainly worse than assault intercessors with jump packs. for 80pts they have more attacks, and mortals on the charge, and loose a small bit of durability, but can go through walls. Outriders should get a +1damage on the charge, and ATVs drop to 50 pts max. Oh! and bring back the captain on bike, and remove the redundancy between strats and the only bike character we have.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

White scars are sorely lacking. They need more options and the detachment needs opening up. They've just given so little thought to it.

[@TheNs1992]

the only thing that will fix the sm is to give the divergent chapters their own codex again, and i say this as a sw player. They cant buff terminators for example becouse we and bt are going to have a field day with it, no matter what they do buffing the vanila codex would buff armies doing exeptionally well already. So unless they can nerf/buff units individualy the sm codex will never be good

[@william9557]

Someone beat me to this But we ned more lieutenants We seriously just dont have enough Centurion lieutenant Lieutenant with jump pack Lieutenant in terminator armour Lieutenant on bike

[@Michaelkayslay]

Outriders sgt with power fist . Sternguard with maybe a plasma rifle Mephiston able to join bladeguard Land raider reedeemer 20 points cheaper

[@Kingofdragons117]

Terminators need AP 1 or pistol on the storm bolter imo.

[@The7guys]

Did you mean to say that Incursors should have sustained hits on their guns? Because they already have that on their melee weapons. I do agree with you that 1st Company should be tweaked. I play Deathwatch heavily into Terminators, and utilizing more of what makes 1st Company marines what they are would be great.

[@Ekonz90]

The reason non-compliant chapters have been using SM codex detachments, especially Dark Angels, their codex detachments suck. Dark Angels detachments are the worst in every way. Unforgiven is based on a useless game mechanic. Company of Hunters, encourages you to play with underpowered mounted units in every way. Inner circle, although gimmicky with termis just falls flat with the vow objective and should confer bonuses for army while holding the objective

[@m33ddyhv]

storm bolters need a buff and terminators should be T6 or T7

[@AntigoneFuriosa]

I know it’s just a typo but it stands out to me as I am currently suffering from sustained shits. 😅😢

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Ah you've been blessed by pappa nurgle!

[@vaclavzunt6835]

I would love to see more ways to farm CP.

[@merakdyer9323]

The best work I've gotten from Sternguard Vets is when they have a Librarian attached. Still wasn't spectacular though.

[@jimskaven5963]

If you're going to make non-compliant chapters have no access to the detachments from the compliant chapters, you have to fix the non-compliant chapters FIRST. Face it, most chapters are kind of in a weird place. Space wolves are effectively a meme list, the Dark Angels hold their own codex in contempt, Deathwatch are forgotten by everyone. It's a big fat mess for everyone. Well, most everyone. The dudes with funny haircuts are holding their breath hoping they don't get hit with the nerf hammer too hard.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

They go hand in hand though. Remove access to codex SM detachments and re-work the detachments in their codex. That's what they have been designed for, but they're just a bit guff.

[@THEHOLYCHAINSWORD]

Centurions with an iron warriors detachment rule would be nice or a 5+ feel no pain or t8 to make them harder to kill. Also feel like sternguard should get their orignal combi weapons back or atleast more special and heavy weapon options

[@rikhansen4574]

Melee AP is mostly worthless as other armies are getting AoC. Space Marine has way to many ap-1 weapons.

[@alternateaccount6913]

Im just hoping for some playable rules man, DA have been in such a bad spot lately. The only things from our entire codex that aren't outshined by regular SM are Azrael, DW knights and DW termies which are just a 5 point upgrade.

[@tikiwiki7428]

they arent gonna take toys away from marines so codex complaint will be worse all edition even if its actually fine

[@sbeaber]

Dark Angels are doing worse (ultramarine characters pull up the space Marines more than the dark angels') I'd rather be locked out of the detachments from codex Space Marines and have good detachments of the 3 in the DA codex. At the very least put a points tax on the detachments that way Codex Space Marines players are penalized for divergent chapters exploiting certain detachments with their own units. It would make balancing easier.

[@carolineturingds]

Yeah so.... we got NONE of this lol

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Eek. Don't know what they were thinking. The impulsor and repulsor increase in capacity is interesting. That's really it.

[@morimori8174]

@@BlackJackalGaming they should have given the lethal hit aura of Ironstorm to Feirros

[@BlackJackalGaming]

@@morimori8174 they need to give him something to make him better than a techmarine!

[@Icarus_789]

totally agree there needs to be a separation between codex-compliant and non-compliant or at least when they get their own codex. Another change that don't just apply to space marines but all characters is to remove the only leading a unit ability requirement as once the character is alone they are just stats for the most part. As for battle shock, space marines don't have enough components to bother chasing that mechanic unless battle shock changes such as battle shock falling off after primary points are scored but this would make factions that do care about battle shock far better than they are right now. I like your ideas for the 1st company detachment as for being a very veteran detachment currently feels very weak.

[@patrickdawson6281]

Just went 4-1 at Bristol with wolves (but not wolf jail) (45th if you want to look up the list), honestly the melee datasheets are very bad and the long range firepower is near non-existent. Vehicles are unreliable and crippled by the fact everyone else's damage is balanced around a 4++ that we don't get. Honestly I could go on at serious length about space marines and balance, it's not good and it hasn't been basically since they nerfed oaths.

[@Schmuvness]

Well, 4-1 at that big of a tournament isn't bad at all so definitely congratz for that. How were you able to pull it off if the army is that weak in your opinion? It's a genuine question, no sarcasm. How would you buff the army without being overpowered?

[@patrickdawson6281]

@@Schmuvness so i took the 3 best data sheets Inceptors scouts and jump pack marines, spammed them, i ran the eradictors and fire discipline combo (replace this with devestator centurians if you have them) and used GTF to supplement thier movement heavily (advance and shoot basically every turn its relevant) and supplemented this with 15 wulfen and bjorn. Chuck in a phob LT (running alone) and infiltrators and that's the list. My only defeat was to the guy who came 2nd, basically because i had no way of fighting shooty necrons. The game plan is basically use the massive 18 man inceptor bomb to just blow the enemy of half the board and use the 8 chaff units (3 jumps 3 wulfen 2 scouts) to score and move block and kill enemy chaff/scoring, Bjorn is basically a distraction carnifex and can tango with some really nasty stuff, this list (with a few variants) has won 3 RTT's, came 2nd in another and finally 4-1 at Bristol in total ive played 17 competitive games and lost 1. I think adding the devestator centurians is potentially the only functional long range firepower in the codex. And the whole thing hinges on me being able to afford those 8 chaff units for just 610 pts. As far as buffing the army, make power armour a 2+ save and make our units slightly more expensive, adjust terminator durability up (maybe permanent AOC), i think marines should be more elite and 2+ saves are very good in 10th, i actually think we are suitably killy at short range firepower and additional durability would cover our deficiencies.

[@RagingHorn7795]

Surprised Deathwatch don't get more mentions in how bad they're doing

[@BlackJackalGaming]

They can't really be fixed in 10th due to pricing of squads. They will always be very expensive and tough to balance. Give them their strats back and they will probably just be OK.

[@RagingHorn7795]

@@BlackJackalGaming I think if they got a decent codex, changed some of these crap rules for the kill teams especially the fortis kill team which is utterly rubbish. I'd rather have a brick of 10 Hellblasters. They may have a chance to be great. They're meant to be the most elite combination of all chapters and veterans, but don't feel like that. More just a weird mismash of stuff.

[@RagingHorn7795]

Apologies for the rant. You probably tell I'm keen to have a viable Deathwatch army

[@BlackJackalGaming]

@RagingHorn7795 no worries, it always sucks when your army is poor. The codex really needs to knock it out the park with the detachments. Anything other than top tier detachments will see them struggle for 10th.

[@sanders3109]

I feel like we desperately need damage 3 melee options as well as a couple more options for anti tank infantry

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Yep, the 3/4 S8 -2 2 damage attacks just don't cut it.

[@TechbotALPHA]

I don't even feel it's salvageable at this point. I've just kinda put my Crimson Fists on the shelf and am focussing on other projects, quite possibly for the duration of 10th Edition. I dislike so many of the over-arching rules changes, and then Marines just get... well, datasheet bloat, units no one ever asked for (Reivers. It's true, everyone knows its true), bolters are shite for no good reason, transport restrictions are shite for no reason, Combi Weapons are Absolute Mega Shite... Bleh.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

They don't like touching datasheets (no codex reprints...) so it will points changes and the odd tweak, which is a shame. How can a codex have so many datasheets and so few options

[@TechbotALPHA]

@@BlackJackalGaming Absolutely. And it's another strike in favour of no more physical RULES books (make Codices art and lore books, people would still buy them, guarenteed) and having fully digital rules instead. Once they've fucked it, they can't un-fuck it, and that's daft -_-

[@ChaoStarDust]

I have to disagree with a lot of stuff you say in the video. I don't think SM are as bad as the database says they are, I say, as someone who plays against SM a lot, I have very close games about a 5-10 point gap. I say their more in line as a 45-50% win rated, and i know SM has a lot of people playing it, but player skill can drastically change the numbers. When it comes to chapter VS core, you are never going to have good internal balances. Chapters need to have one of two things done with them they need to be their own army rules and work like cult marines or have them removed from the game because it was a nightmare back in 9th when trying to balance blood angles and SM but can't because all their uints overlap in codxes. I will say this the detachments are not as bad as they could have been but yes they need to be looked at but they can wight other armys need help more looking at you AD Mech. When it comes to melee buffs i think they don't need much I play CSM and power fist get the job done nicely with chain swords. I think it's has more to do with the fact that SM lending into a more gun line playsuit then a melee one its like AD Mexh ya they have melee but it's more your here for the master chief then the human.

[@marwie2598]

Great video with so many good ideas! I think that joining different chapters to one task force will be good idea. Some characters are not bad but also not great and together with others will be more playable

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Yeah it would give you more options, otherwise some characters will never leave the shelf!

[@seattlepunkgaming3825]

17:13 big fan of Sustained Shits.

[@Paerigos]

Phobos terminators...

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Sneaky chunky boys? I like it.

[@xeticus5435]

With the Anvil Siegeforce I think +1 to wound on everything is way too strong. And then you have madmen flooding the field with cheap scout units or something and giving them all +1 to wound. But I think way to get the benefits of staying station when you move would be very nice. Like if you move to an objective for a command point you can count as stationary for one turn would be a big help and not too unbalanced.

[@connorkester2452]

DO NOT NERF NON CODEX CHAPTERS just buff codex space marines for example dark angels are so bad rights now the only da codex thing that's competitive is azrial

[@kurzor0007]

Non-codex losing access to codex detachments: absolutely not, they are still space marines but with slight deviations/flavors but they still try to fight along the same combat doctrine (with BTs as an exception)

[@jail13ot63]

I don’t want space marines at the top of the meta. That’s just bad for the hobby. We need some very small deliberate points adjustments. They’re still figuring out non codex compliant chapters clearly, but I would prefer that marines not be outshined by any one chapter. Again, bad for the hobby.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

How would it be bad for the hobby if it's the most played/owned faction? Surely it would mean a higher proportion of people can use their minis and have a good time. Every faction should have it's time at the top during an edition.

[@peterobbo1383]

No point increases! That's a definite start ffs

[@MagosVeridian]

I completely forget that codex SM exists (I play BA). Melee in the current codex feels nonexistent without the +2S and +1A on charges. Outriders are hilariously sad. I agree that non-compliant chapters should only be able to run their detachments. Better for balance, and it's hard to tell what ACTUALLY needs help because you'll have Space Wolves running Stormlance which boosts it's stats, or Templars running Ironstorm, etc.

[@angiejones8452]

The emperor protects

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Once a game rule would be cool!

[@piotrjeske4599]

I just want my WS biker list to not be legend

[@shadowywarrior]

Desolations need help too, and the impulsor!!! transport 6 should be transport 7! and get rid of the castellen launchers from the desolations, give them the aility to fire either the superfrag or superkrak, and lower their points down to 120 or 135 points, the Eldar has a unit exactly like this, so let the space marines have a unit like it. Suppressors need to have their ability reworked slightly, either give them Damage 3 or Ap -2, and make it so that their ability affects all units that they hit, not just a pick one.

[@markhohenbrink5230]

Man, if Judiciars could join with other characters, that would be amazing. Also let Judiciars join more squads wouod be nice too.

SM Crusade rules are also super bland and boring... 😑

[@BlackJackalGaming]

They were in 9th as well. Zero imagination goes into them. We need to transfer the ork writers across!

[@enoontnatropmi7174]

you had me until you said no more other detachments. Dark angles detachments are TRASH!!!! if they fixed terminator to not suck then inner circle would be ok....what codex space marines needs is a generic chapter master for 80 points with chapter master enhancements that you pay for.... give people a list of the coolest abilities and allow them to pick for the price? that would be cool

[@tastefulavenger]

That would be stupid for salamanders and raven guard and ultras since they have chapter masters already.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Oh they would need to fix DA detachments, that's a separate issue all together! A chapter master would be good. Theyve forgotten about them.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

True, but you could do that in the previous editions as well. It would essentially just be the most senior captain in those detachments.

[@xeticus5435]

They definitely need better characters that are Codex complaint only.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

@@xeticus5435 yep, maybe remove the restriction that you can't mix and match them. Almost pointless taking the Khan

[@kahldris1228]

Gw hate us codex sm player dammit.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

Maybe codex 10.5 for space marines...

[@kahldris1228]

@BlackJackalGaming that would be awesome, but haven't heard anything about that happening.

[@BlackJackalGaming]

@@kahldris1228 it's why I think they are not touching them at all. The recent codexes have been waaaay more powerful.

[@kahldris1228]

Ya the sm codex isn't out together that well really, ah well. Ya think they'd want to but guess not.