What Does A Flash, Onsight, Redpoint and Headpoint Mean? | Climbing Daily Ep.1111

There are certain climbing terms that are really confusing. We're here to help make thing a little bit clearer...we hope! Are there any climbing terms you don't understand? Let us know in the comments below.
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What Does A Flash, Onsight, Redpoint and Headpoint Mean? | Climbing Daily Ep.1111

[@aknzortuk4027]

Considering headpoint as cheating, basically saying like, checking forecast before mountaineering is cheating.

[@nichtsistkostenlos6565]

Dude, how can you even say that you crossed the street if you didn't just run out there first without looking? Like don't even talk to me if you're using crosswalks. If you're not flagrantly risking your life every time you go outside are you even living?

[@MonopolyTB]

Climb safe and none should relay care what you headpoint or flash. Its against your self, not others.

[@jonathantaylor147]

Tobias Blichfeldt agree. Who cares. I’ve either climbed it or I haven’t

[@David-ud9ju]

That's what I don't understand about headpointing it. You top rope climb it so you can trad climb it. You've already climbed it - why then climb it again in a different style? For me, it's about climbing it and getting to the top; I don't care how I do it. I also don't see the difference between top roping and lead climbing it - sure, clipping in every few metres means you have to take your hand off the wall which you wouldn't have to do when top roping but it doesn't make it that much more difficult. People seem to think that top roping doesn't count when it still requires the same climbing ability as sport climbing does.

[@tiagodutra]

@@David-ud9ju Guess there's a lot of differences between top roping and lead climbing, and the main one is mental. When leading a route you have to deal with fear, and that makes a huge difference. The other one is physical, cause when you take one hand off the wall you have to keep the other one for more time on the hold, and deal with the rope pulling and clipping. But I agree with you about climbing it and getting to the top, no matter how.

[@GeraAdv]

once I started leading, I just dont get the same feeling climbing in any other way. The risk of falling is addictive and always makes me push harder

[@BoyFromTheOtherSide]

Great episode!! Thanks for this detailed explanation.

[@JahNug]

7:14 "That means you have to risk that fall or have massive uhh... balls"

[@Kitsune-Moriko]

The way I did it was: 1. Climb it in one go without relying on rope or gear = on sight. 2. Lead climb the route, but resorted to pulling a sling, rope or gear. Or rested on rope to regain stamina = dogged. Tried to lead but failed= didn't count as anything. Top roped a route then later climbed to the top on a lead, same day or some time later = headpoint. Climbed a route with no gear at all = free solo. Don't think I've soloed anything above an HS. I often didn't have guide books for places I visited, so I used experience to determine grade and looked up the climb later. Kind of doesn't spoil it that way too.

[@danielr.7137]

Nice Vid, Thanks to Matt and Team...

[@borboruwek]

This would be a great series!

[@tombodgeit6822]

Matt climbed E6, kudos!

[@patob3363]

love the more or less be safe and progress the sport outlook. its smarter

[@souleymanediarra5565]

Great video, thanks for taking on this topic. After all these years - same topic, same level of contentiousness 😊. Like any activity where forethought, preparation, and strategy are needed, a person's approach to climbing can reveal a great deal about their character- to themselves most importantly.

[@AndyPowell32]

I'm old enough to remember when the term red-pointing was invented (in the 80s?). Prior to that, and for a while after, the prevalent accepted styles for hard trad in the UK were Flash and Yo-yo. A yo-yoed ascent was done ground-up with no prior top rope practice. If you fell, you lowered to the ground, or on a big pitch to the last rest point, before trying again after a short rest. Significantly, you left the rope clipped through the top runner between attempts. Many recorded first ascents in that era were done in the yoyo style. It might sound like a big cheat to the modern climber, but in reality a yoyoed ascent completed in one session (e.g. half a day) is more difficult to pull off than a multi-day projected redpoint or headpoint. Initially, redpointing was seen as cheating by many because top rope practice was strictly taboo. Oh how things have changed!!

[@buntbar2438]

Thats intresting. Actually I climb exacly like that. It´s just the only way that makes sense to me. I Try a Climb, if I fall of I Try it again. If nobody else wants to give it a try while I´m resting, I leave the Rope where it is and Try again. If the Route is to Hard for me, I try another "Onsight/Flash" or a Route I failed to Climb before. To me, resting in the Rope ist Poitntless. Practicing a Route until I know every move is also pointless to me. That´s for Pro´s at the very end of the ladder who are climbing kind of "superhuman". But thats just how I enjoy climbing the most at the Moment and may differ over Time. The only thing thats even more silly than resting in the Harness, is judging others for doing it. :) I´m new to climbing and still trying hard to get the awesome open mindet climbing scene together with these nitpikers(the same people) that argue about Terms and and compare each other trying to negotiate the terms like children. Referring to this Yosemite Movie, thats a consistent paradox since climbing exists. Maybe I´ll get the point when I´ll be more experienced.

[@Jacksonemccoy]

We are bringing the yoyo style back for vertical routes! Very fun with a similarly skilled partner on difficult routes. And typically gets you off the route faster with the same amount of climbing than if you traded 3 hang burns/or beta burns. Really a shame how the redpoint style tends to fool people into thinking leaving the high point makes their effort less worthwhile.

[@connorkenway4358]

Who places the gear when you onsight it?

[@colinwatt00]

So if I turn-up to a new route which happens to be a top-rope set-up and I practice it (falling a couple times and taking rests on the rope) and then finally make the route cleanly from bottom to top without falling or resting, is this an Onsite Headpoint or Onsite Redpoint?

[@ErikKloeker]

The game is made up and the points don't matter. All you need to know about these terms!

[@ig2d]

so what was the etymology of these terms? on-sight and flash speak for themselves but redpointing? headpointing?

[@zachtom3132]

How about that Tronsight?

[@stevenhenderson1198]

7:18 massive ```balls``` belief in your abilities.

[@coolbrotherf127]

Trad climbing just sounds like a pain. I'll probably just stuck to Sport climbing since I don't have to worry about hurting myself every fall.

[@EranAmir]

Does this terminology apply to long multi-pitch routes as well? If you fall on the last move of the last pitch of El Capitan, does that ruin your entire Redpoint?

[@fivetwoeighty7012]

Eran Amir not really. So when tommy and kevin sent the dawn wall, they fell a ton of times. But they redpointed every pitch individually.

[@EranAmir]

Got it, makes more sense that way!

[@JeromyMarkee]

when they fell, they would lower back down to the belay and pull the rope. sort of "resetting" the attempt at the pitch if you will.

[@xzysyndrome]

or about 2 hours if you are Alex Honnold or Alex Caldwell

[@carlbaroni1595]

xzysyndrome its to my Caldwell

[@Astilath]

So you can't onsight if you spot a nice looking route in a guidebook? 🤔 Like "ooh i didnt realise there was a 7c there round the corner! But I just ruined the onsight by finding out about its existence?"

[@ABSVabeautifulsunsetvlog]

So I’ve never seen ondra, megos or any of the pro sport climbers place gear yet they’re given credit for the send. Is it different after a certain grade as far as how the send is viewed? Whenever I’ve seen them lead first ascents it’s always on pre placed gear.

[@canaDavid1]

The bolts might have been placed with assisted climbing (using trad anchors to hold weight, not just safety) or other methods of help, i think?

[@RappoportLab]

If it is "OK" to pre-place QDs for Redpoint, are there ethics/rules about dogbone length? If you use an extended alpine draw to allow for a clip just before a crux, is that acceptable?

[@outdoorvertical]

Josh Rappoport pink point not covered here

[@RappoportLab]

ben smith it was a theoretical question

[@daveb9917]

Probably to most people. As Matt said, the point is not to clip the QD, they are just there to keep you safe. And generally its safer to have a clip just below the crux as that is where you will most likley fall. But there will probably be someone that doesn’t think its okay, but those people are usally the ones that talks a lot more than they actually climb tbh

[@johnpownall1511]

Yes this is fine. As long as it’s not too long of a draw of course. The only time this is not applicable is on the anchors. Clipping a low hanging draw and calling that “the end” is BS. Oftentimes there are still moves left! I’ve climbed many a route where the crux is clipping the chains!

[@jeffchristenson6877]

I think climbers should just mind their own business and worry about their own experience. Who cares about bragging rights? Just go get your kicks and hopefully do it safely. Thanks for the heads up on the terminology though :-)

[@tylerdurden1734]

So headpoint is basically the trad version od a red point but obviously pacing the gear on lead?

[@bentoomey15]

For folks who think "the top part is difficult" spoils an onsight, does knowing the grade of a route spoil an onsight too? That's information about what to expect, after all.

[@damiankohl9484]

You left out GreenPoint and Retro-Flash :)

[@floewqua]

If the ropes are already fixed and you send a route first time on top-rope, does that count as an onsight?

[@jancasadevall399]

Not really. Those terms only count for NON top-rope ascends. If you send a route on tope-rope first try, that would only mean that you could potentially do it without top-rope. Not the same though :)

[@floewqua]

Jan Casadevall In my gym top-rope is the standard and only a few people can actually climb lead. It's a little frustrating that I can not onsight a route just because I can't climb lead, because I haven't learned it yet.

[@jancasadevall399]

FloK Van I am just saying that this words are associated with lead ascends. You can still call it an "onsight on top-rope" if you want. And if you can do that, it should work as an encouragement for you to try lead next time! :)

[@climbscience4813]

Nope, doesn't really count as an onsight. At least according to the "official rules". You could say "I onsighted it on top rope" and everyone would know what you mean, so I think that would be honest enough. :-) There definitely is a difference in difficulty between top rope and lead. For me it made about 3 letter grades difference, now it's only about one as I got used to lead climbing a lot more (I rarely do top rope now).

[@markmcmahon7394]

Best never forget no Matter what terms are, or how you done it, one thing should never change which will mean you've done it right, and that is. Have Fun. :-) Stay cool guys.

[@dailyclimbing]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay, bit of a re-upload as there was offline media in the first upload #badfinalchecks

[@alexteoli3378]

EpicTV Climbing Daily that's alright, only just got home 😉

[@hididi7762]

Last half of Alex Honnold’s free solo of Half Dome was onsight. Onsight free solo.

[@picasadeluxe]

Is there a difference between "onsight" with already clipped quickdraws (for me it is a part of information) and an onsight attempt where the climber has to set all the quickdraws ? "onsight light" or onsight ? Please make a video and ask the professionals about this.

[@rowanferwerda4865]

Idk for onsight but if you're projecting and you climb the route with all the quickdraws already in place it's called a pinkpoint, if you put them while you're climbing it's a redpoint. But the word pinkpoint doesn't get used very often

[@mark_tolver]

I think there’s always been a bit of confusion with these some of these terms as they describe quite similar things. As far as I’ve always understood it, an onsight can still be considered an onsight when you’ve reversed or downclimbed, even to the ground as long as you didn’t fall or weight the rope. Technically, that means you could untie and even go home, have dinner and a nap and then gone back to do it a year later so in short, means no beta, no falls but allowed to downclimb. A flash means doing it first go but beta allowed so an onsight flash would be the purest form ie no beta, no falls and first go although admittedly there could be a bit of confusion here e.g. at what point would reversing some moves to a rest and or a ledge invalidate the flash part of it. If anyone knowledgeable disagrees with these definitions, please let me know as I’m sure many people would disagree with the downclimbing to the ground part.

[@davidwarren719]

I suppose as long as you don’t leave the crag? Who cares?

[@trizzer77]

I'd like to see a video on climbing etiquette and what's frowned upon and what's ok and how it differs from place to place. You mentioned placing quickdraws for instance. I have a friend who never preplaces draws and thinks it is a part of the climb.

[@denislejeune9218]

Christopher Stoltz indeed, clipping the qds does affect the climb, it takes more endurance.

[@climbscience4813]

I think there are regional differences, but the individual differences within one region are just as large. I'm not sure if that video would really make sense tbh. On the topic of placing quickdraws it definietely makes a difference! Not only do you have to stay in the clipping position longer, but on long climbs, having to take all those quick draws with you might actually make a difference weight-wise. 20 quick draws weigh about 1 kg, for most people that makes a difference in difficulty.

[@SlamPvP]

why do boulders only get flashed never onsighted?

[@Omnicurious]

Some people feel that because boulder problems are generally so short and you can often check out every hold on the problem before you actually attempt it that it doesn't count as an onsite in the same way it would for a sport route or top rope climb where you don't really know what the upper holds are really like until you get up there. It sounds dumb but some people take this kind of thing quite seriously.

[@SlamPvP]

i did guess so. thanks

[@TheCorrectionist1984]

So there's definitely no onsighting indoor climbs, right?

[@HEAVYMETALMAGICVIDS]

Is it possible to go over pinkpointing vs redpointing?

[@sweatfootm]

Pinkpointing a dumb distinction that reasonable people don't care about but is a send with draws prehung. Redpoint is a send draws prehung or not.

[@dooglaas]

It's not so often used in sport anymore but is more applicable to trad

[@natewinoutdoors]

pinkpoint the the trad version of redpoint. you climb the route cleanly but the gear is pre-placed.

[@OurCognitiveSurplus]

So if I try to on sight, but fall off. And then do it on my second or third go. What’s that called?

[@stefans4562]

Red Point

[@OurCognitiveSurplus]

Stefan S thank you

[@ivanhagstrom5601]

What about pink point? I've heard people say it but have no clue what it means.

[@miloclarkson9525]

if you know what the great british baking show is, than you should make a climbing show like it.

[@chrisb4003]

I don't get what the difference between red/headpoint, you described them as the same thing?

[@berndkonfuzius4505]

Where I am from,Redpointing is still doing the route ground up like the FA. Placing gear, including quick draws, as you go. Getting to the first clip might be scary but that does not make preclipping ok for a red point.

[@skltr21]

you either flash something or you get it eventually. those are literally the only things that matter even the slightest. Redpoint is a ridiculous term. just say you got the climb done. only thing that matters at all is if you flashed it first go, or just eventually got it. other than that, who cares?!

[@widgetno1]

skltr21 why is redpoint ridiculous ? Surely instead of flash you could just say I climbed it first time ?

[@skltr21]

because redpoint is literally just getting up it at some point. who cares if it's anything other than a flash? no one. so saying redpoint is just dumb. no one cares if you call it a redpoint and it was you 15th go. just say you got the climb. absolutely no point in saying redpoint. flash, yes. sure, you can say first go. same thing. saying redpoint is literally just to make it sound cooler that you got a climb after a bunch of go's? dumb.

[@skltr21]

and for that matter, if someone said they got a climb first go, you would know exactly what they were talking about. saying flash just makes you sound like a cool climber bro. same thing with redpoint. its an absolutely useless term. it serves no purpose. every go after your flash go is a redpoint attempt. so it literally means nothing. it's just another word for "here's another go at it" so stupid.

[@widgetno1]

The reasons we have words for specific things is that it makes communication more efficient. If someone says "I flashed it" or "I repointed it" it's unambiguous. All words have definitions but if we went around describing everything rather than using the words it would be confusing and annoying.

[@TheSkate2skater]

In my opinion, I think the usefulness of the term redpoint comes from climbs that have more than one pitch, where in some cases you can aid yourself and use other gear to perhaps avoid climbing a few sections, but still technically "finish" the whole wall. Sport climbing a single pitch is just redpointing, which is where I agree with you. But redpointing a multipitch is saying that you climbed every single move of that route without falling or using aid (except between the pitches obvs).

[@jasonlovi8745]

On-sight only!

[@riowei3223]

If you talk about ascent styles you have to be 1000% correct. I would say i you climb a route with the help of the "language of chalk" isn't an onsight anymore. Where is the difference between a person who tells you to get the crimper with your right hand and a chalk spot witch shows you witch hand you should take? Also tickmarks destroy onsights, so please remove your tickmarks over night. Also I would made difference between an ascent with prefixed draws and without. I know also Kurt Albert marked routes with a red point he climbed with preplaced draws, but I think it's iportent to mention if you pre placed your draws. In most routes it is no big difference but there are some routes where short people have to clip the bolt fom worse holds than big people. This is why pink point was introduced. In my opinion a climb with a pre cliped first bolt is not a red or pinkpoint acent anymore. But you honestly can say you've climbed it. But the most importent thing is to have fun and not worring about the name or definition about your acent style.

[@outdoorraw]

RIP Lucky.

[@johnpownall1511]

Definitely worth mentioning Pink Pointing. This is pre-placing gear. Also includes sport routes because truthfully, what you’ve said about there “being no difference regarding draws on or putting them on yourself” is not true. It takes more effort and you’re often on the hold longer. Sometimes it’s also much trickier to sit on these particular holds for those few extra seconds. Red Point is putting the gear up on a clean ascent. Pink Pointing is a clean ascent with pre-placed gear.

[@sweatfootm]

In sport climbing, I think we can stop the pink point v red point distinction. Just call it a send and be done with it.

[@johnpownall1511]

I don't think we can stop, nor will we. Feel free to just call it a send yourself.

[@lachlannossiter5462]

sweatfootm Agreed.

[@owievisie]

I climbed 9C+ but without camera's because I'm old skool

[@cayloseals]

I have been climbing for 7 years and idk what head or redpoint is

[@charlieweeks3851]

can an onsight be indoor?

[@David-ud9ju]

Yeah, why not. We talk about the competition boulderers flashing them if they get it on their first go, but they're actually on-sighting them.

[@rikardtvedby3206]

Can you explain the term "beta"?

[@climbscience4813]

It is the information about which moves to do when on a route. Like "take that crimp with your left, then do a drop knee and grab the pinch on your right..." etc. ;-)

[@liorkatz5786]

beta is the sequence of moves you do on a climb

[@kazo0ie]

The original use of the term Beta in climbing is generally attributed to the late climber Jack Mileski. "Beta" was short for Betamax, a reference to an old videotape format largely replaced by the VHS format. This was actually a play on words, as Mileski would often ask, "you want the beta, Max?"

[@lst1nwndrlnd]

Rope!? Kinky.

[@The.Hangry.Comment]

Idk... but when Adam-O is talking about chalk-spotting...that is kinda cheating the on-site in my opinion because of the knowledge it reveals showing the route... a true blind on-site should be clean of chalk before the start and no "reveals" at all. ...It's Like using someone else's multiple choice exam in school after they have erased their answers and being able to see all their prior eraser marks around the correct answers throughout the whole test and 100% it with no studying or personal knowledge or owns effort...

[@jtmagx]

Still don’t understand the difference between head and red pointing, sounds the exact same with the only difference being one is sport and other is trad

[@victorchang2016]

Still don’t get it

[@xthepatmanx]

Onsight first comment

[@dooglaas]

Sounds more like a redpoint first comment as you've edited

[@Naturehood3_8]

I didn't got all.

[@skltr21]

any climber that is this anal about this stuff needs to gtfo. give me a break. just climb!!!!

[@illduitmyself]

"the progression of the sport???" its how certain sports are ruined and commercialized

[@KruzerOak]

People who set goals for achievements and create terminology for these achievements should get the fuck out, yeah!

[@manicmute9440]

So true.

[@placeborick]

As a new climber this is offputting. It's supposed to be fun right? I would avoid anyone that is more interested in the politics than the enjoyment.

[@zombiecatcher]

It’s not really info useful to a beginner. Off putting is how likely you are to injuring yourself lol

[@CW-ri1ug]

I wouldn't worry about the terms unless you start joining competitions. I dont like it when some experienced climbers start getting "uppity" with newbies. Its few and far in between but that one negative experience can deter some who are new to the sport. Climb on, have fun, stay safe, push yourself, enjoy the climb, respect the environment and other people.

[@michaelzwiener395]

is this not taking the thing a little too serious? It's "just" climbing. It's a sport and exists for people to have fun. Seems like this is a lot of bureaucracy for free spirits.

[@shanemcman3665]

Thanks, I understand even less now

[@HansPeter-xk3cm]

I will have to quit watching your stuff as you're killing my onsights

[@MattNicassio]

I've never heard anyone say Headpoint. You watch these videos of the pros working a route for months. Finally doing it, with all of the quickdraws already in place and they ALWAYS call it a Redpoint...

[@lillidel1935]

Matt youve got to decide if you pronounce your 't' s or not

[@bertiesmith3021]

Go to the rock. Enjoy yourself. Go home at the end of the day.

[@Puleczech]

That about sums it up!

[@emanuelefoti3688]

hey man.. what about JUST having fun?

[@ripapa6355]

Nonsense. Did you lead the route, bottom to top without falling? That's a redpoint.

[@ripapa6355]

If the draws are in place it's a pink point, not a redpoint. Climbing's getting soft.

[@Geocrazygaming]

To me, a flash is first time on top rope and an onsight is first time on lead. Is this just a cultural difference?

[@7Phoenix1]

Sounds like a lot of ego and BS. I decided I don't need to know any of these terms because I don't need to tell others about my climbs because I climb for my own enjoyment.

[@fiendsfootage]

Headpoint means FAILURE (except new routes and cutting edge routes not yet onsighted). HTH.