What GW Has Truly Lost

[@TheCoincidence]

Rules should just be free if they're going to be so volatile.

[@Bobamelius]

it's completely insane they are still selling rules. they could have gotten back so much good will by modernizing how they distribute rules if they're going to be so insistent on changing them constantly. we have to rely on the wahapedia guy to even play the game now. if anything happens to him or that site, it's gonna suck big time.

[@schroecat1]

The rules should be free, period. Rules are advertising for the models, giving them away is the cheapest advertising they could have.

[@7hird3ye]

Especially considering rules and codexes get errated and updated to hell because of mistakes and balancing.

[@Th3D4nny]

@@Bobamelius It's so wild man, selling physical rulebooks in 2024, rules which they change every few months, its unbelievable. At this point I think GW should just suck it up, stop making profits on codexes and implement a way of distributing rules more up to date to the current year.

[@elijahherstal776]

>Games Workshop >Free My brother in Christ, Games Workshop would charge admission to funerals if they thought they could get away with it and had the infrastructure to support the endeavor. And people would still buy the tickets, too- even if they had no idea who was in the casket. It's hilarious that a game like Infinity has free rules online. Oh, not only are they online and can be referenced directly through their free list-building app- but the rules are updated for balance periodically and new units are added as they release. It's a mechanically more balanced game than anything GW has ever made.

[@knightofyourlife]

People have allowed themselves to be taken out of their own hobby. The game belongs to those that have bought it, The word of the day is Oldhammer. Start a third edition or first edition or any edition club that is your favourite. A miniature that is 40 years old is worth more to its owner than anything that they could buy to day, because of the fun memories that are cherished.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

That's the right attitude!

[@T3CH33]

I know I've been thinking very seriously about getting the 1st ed books (RT, LatD, StD) in hardback for this very reason.

[@HeadCannonPrime]

I agree. The only way we play warhammer these days is older editions. The quirky RPGness of rogue trader, the tight and concise 3rd edition, and my personal favorite with the most flare is 5th edition. By the end it was a completely realized game that they went and broke apart for profits.

[@CrashHeadroom]

Doesn't work that way unfortunately. See wht will happen, is you will ask if they wanna play, they will see how "complicated the old editions are" and then never wanst to play it.... I don't know why you new fans think people will just play the old rules, because it was basically cut to bits and turned in to TRASH in order to get you and THOSE people in to playing :/ So when you say that? You are just saying "lets go back and play the edition we used to bully you for when you were young, then got changed to appease our 10 minute attention spans!"........... There is no hobby, it was sacrificed so people who DIDN'T like warhammer could play it -_-.

[@Proto1Dude]

The problem is many local play groups are infested with tourists that refuse to play anything but the newest most current rulings, even if they don't enjoy them.

[@von2320]

The two year rule set release is absolutely idiotic. It took me 2 years to build my DG army!!!! wtf?! They are trying to turn table top wargaming into a seasonal cod money grab. It’s not feasible. These fools try to monetize EVERYTHING

[@elijahherstal776]

The answer is simple: Stop buying stuff from them altogether. It'll hurt them.

[@4of122]

Of course they do, its about the money and not about the Hobby or Worldbuilding. The Hobby is in things like Mass Brutatlity, The IX. Age, OPR etc. I still love the background except AOS, but giving them money for the current state of the game is not justifiable.

[@elijahherstal776]

@@4of122 to be 100% fair, if they're a business it IS all about the money. That's kinda the whole purpose, especially for a publicly-traded company. Hobby and world-building is only important when it brings in money. They're not your friends, we're not a "community", and they have an obligation to their investors. If you were one of those investors you'd want your money to pay out. The problem is: No matter how bad GW is, the only reason they keep doing this is because fanboys keep paying. If people cut their GW spending in half for a year, it'd change- but most Warhammer players can't do that. They'd sell their own children to buy a new shiny Warhammer toy.

[@Roukle]

Especially when they can't be bothered to finish making the damn codexes before starting a new cycle so you go through most of that cycle without an updated codex for your faction only to have it release and be outdated in 3 months

[@michaelrossel7339]

@@elijahherstal776 which doesn't mean stop using their models. the 2nd hand market is huuuge!

[@Thorny-jg3go]

What you describe is literally GW business strategy. They aren't interested in long-term players. It is long known that the only metric that counts for their stores is the number of starter packs sold. They want things to constantly feel "fresh" by releasing new editions - so it appears more welcoming and a good time to start for newcomers. The average player sticks around for 4 years. (Don't quote me on this, but the number is definitely somewhere in their boardrooms). That means that they'll likely stick around for two editions and spend plenty of cash on exorbitantly overpriced plastic in that honeymoon time. Those who are truly invested will stick around for longer and spend even more as individuals, which is great but more of a nice bonus to them. The only thing that matters is the appearance of constant growth. Business wise, it seems to be a very prudent strategy. And maybe it is their winning formula since they do have a ton of brand recognition - but I wholeheartedly agree that WH has lost a lot of soul and in turn me many years ago because of their beancounter leadership.

[@Super-Marauder-Girl]

Do these business men even realize that customers turn their backs on them within 4 years because their design choices drive them away?

[@Jyrro]

​@Super-Marauder-Girl Don't ask questions, just consume product and then get excited for next product.

[@AaronFrederick843]

@@Jyrro oh man a pat-ism? In the WILD!

[@nickellingham1764]

I suspect only a tiny fraction of kits/games/box sets etc sold make it to the table top. Some players/collectors/painters seem to have a stacks of unopened kits sat on their shelfs at home, from FOMO and the relatable compulsion they feel to buy cool looking new stuff. I got in to Warhamer in 1988 aged 8 and obsessed with it until aged 14. I left in 2nd edition, then returned in 2018 or 2019. I've not played a game of 40k or any Warhammer game since the mid 90s other than Advanced Heroquest which went OOP in 1992 lol. There's quite a lot of love for that system which has been growing in recent years with loads of fan made content, modernised rules etc. It's one of the only games that ever came with Solo-play rules I can think of other than Spacehulk and can be really good fun. Collecting all the vintage Oldhammer minis it and the expansion feature is a hobby in its self. I do enjoy building and painting things. I casually collect and paint Imperial Guard, and must have 10,000 points worth of stuff now. Id guess 60% of that being unopened kits, 20% assembled and primed and only 20% painted to ant level I'd call complete. I still feel an unexplainable urge to but new releases, but have managed to resist for about 6 months. Im fairly old fashioned and do enjoy browsing through old codexes, rule sets Ive bought in recent years rather than looking at a screen. Im not realy a fan of sci-fi or fantasy in general, but do have a lot of fondness for Warhammer. Id love to know the proportion of people who buy GW stuff purely to collect and paint compared to those who play tabletop. I live in UK and work as a domestic electrician. I visit quite lot of homes containing Warhammer collections and hobby desks/rooms. Very few people when I ask about their connection to it have played or even intend to play tabletop games. The hobby/painting side of it sems far larger than the intended full-on gaming experience side of it.

[@elijahherstal776]

@@Super-Marauder-Girl doesn't matter, they've made more than enough. Spending time worried about some sweaty grognard isn't worth the time it takes to listen to them. They'll make more money if they just keep driving forward as they do. People keep paying. GW keeps making money. As much as I hate what they do, it's successful.

[@MrSkullhead1]

GW's edition churn is a sneaky way of implementing a subscription model for their games.

[@mattbrown5234]

I thought 3d printers becoming a serious threat were still a ways away. Resin is messy and hazardous, and FDM prints usually looked…like garbage. Then I started seeing some really incredible vehicles and monsters using Bambu printers, and I learned they were only a couple hundred dollars and required little tinkering. I got one with fairly low expectations…but I’m printing infantry sized models I’d be proud to show off with a decent paint job. Bigger models should look even better. AND I subscribed to OPR’s STL tier, so I’ve started accidentally accumulating armies. I didn’t think I was all that interested in Guard-like armies, especially at full wargame sizes instead of skirmish. But now I’ve got models for a bunch of tanks and guard-like models I can print for pennies, that cost me all of $20 so far, and I’m thinking “Tanks are cool. Maybe I want to play HDF…” And I get access to all of their game systems and rules for every army in every system. And they have a great free army builder. When I look at GW’s counter offer (hundreds of dollars for models and hundreds more for books, and the more you buy the more it costs to maintain) it’s almost laughable at this point…

[@watchwood]

I have a hard time printing fine details, but overall my A1 Mini has been 100% worth it.

[@MadMax-el2el]

Well I can tell you FDM has gotten shockingly good over the last year. The new printing methods, combined with the .02 nozzle and heated or st least heat retaining booths/housing... The prints are way better than you would think and yes a good resin printer still dunks on my bamboo. That said... on the table top most people don't realize they are fdm prints until they pick them up and look at them. When it comes to terrain the fdm printer is perfectly fine. If fdm printer hardware and software continue to progress as they have over the past year... it could be as short as two or three years and we could see fdm printers being widely adopted by Jhon/Jane Q public. I cannot see it ever being better than resin for details. but it has come along way.

[@mattbrown5234]

@@watchwooddepending on what you mean by “fine details,” if you haven’t already I’d strongly recommend checking out the FDM Miniatures subreddit and looking for posts from the user HOHansen. They list all of their settings and the results I’ve gotten with an A1 Mini using those have blown me away. The sacrifice is it’s extremely slow (think 5-6 hours per infantry sized model). But it prints faster than I normally paint, so I’m really happy with it. It’s still not resin, but for anything short of competition/display painting and some specific minis that FDM just doesn’t handle well, it’s great. You do need a 0.2 nozzle if you don’t already have one, they’re like $12.

[@AP-hv9ll]

I have an FDM printer since January (Bambu A1 was out of stock so I bought a CR-10 SE instead. It's decent.) FDM's are great for bases and terrain, but I've had also had an SLA for over five years, and that's where my modelling lives. I get what you guys are saying about messiness. The fact is you need a rather large and permanent work area for cleaning and curing, and that area is going to get wrecked by liquid resin residue all over. Plus, ventilation is a must. It's a lot to take on for some, and downright impossible for other people's living situation. Compare that to the 'cleaning' I need to do with FDM: trashcan, old rag, bottle of 91% IPA, done. While fumes are still a thing, there is a solution for the big messy-area problem on the horizon for home SLA. Today, you can buy a commercial grade printer combination unit, that prints, slides the print to the back of the unit, drops it into a solvent vat to run the rinse. Then lifts to dry. Sensors tell you the how clean your solvent is. It's going to be a game changer, but today Formlabs sells that unit for ~$15k. I was going to say give it 5 years, but since we still seem to be in a glorious printer manufacture arms race, maybe only three? This won't solve all the SLA problems, but it will make SLA 75% more approachable by getting the toxic messiness out of the equation.

[@GoobertownHobbies]

Well said. Planned obsolescence is one of the most infuriating strategies that a company could possibly use. I've learned that the rules change far faster than my desire or ability to keep up with, so I'm out of the whole ecosystem now. The flood of new models is nice for painters though, from time to time something catches my eye

[@PatrickVS101]

I feel like it's worth noting a few things: - Firstly the edition cycles are three years, not two, which makes your points a little more diffuse. - Secondly the core-rules are now largely free. As a kid in 2001, I had immense trouble saving up for the WHFB 6th Edition rulebook because it was $65 AUD which was a massive barrier to play - Thirdly, regarding the release of Codexes and stuff, I have the 1996 Wood Elf Army Book, which saw minimal support in 2000 with Ravening Hordes, but their didn't have proper rules until late 2005 with WHFB 7th edition being released less than a year later. I'm not saying it excuses how it is now, but it's never really been "good". A lot of people look at the late 90's and early 00's as a really glorious time for the hobby, and it was - but not because problems that exist now didn't exist then, it was more the cultural approach and the DIY nature and community (which is sorely lacking now).

[@garbagecan755]

The games also encouraged that DIY behavior though. Nowadays everything has a set loadout, everything is mono-pose, no rules for models that GW doesn't produce, no meaningful wargear options (would you like to gain a CP on a 5+ if you target this shitty battleline unit or have their s4 ap0 guns ignore cover?), etc. They've done everything they can to take conversions away from being something fun to do for the game and made it entirely divorced from 40k/AoS. Conversions are now a "Well, if you want to." rather than a "Wow, that's a really cool way to make Elysians I would never have thought about before!!" The hobby used to feed into the game, which fed into the hobby. Now, the hobby seems to be more just a barrier of entry to the game that people want to play. That's why more and more people are just moving to 3d printing and not engaging with the hobby aspect outside of painting.

[@troyimlach1453]

I didn't loose faith in GW. I just got tiered of having to learn new rules, every few years. That and the cost of the game. $80 for the rule book, $70 for the codex, $50 for the supplement and of course if I want the new units that are coming out it is $50 for 5 marines. I started playing One Page Rules games. And I'm having fun playing again.

[@walt_man]

Here in Canada, a 10 man guard squad is $70...

[@rowbot5555]

In nz youd be lucky to get a 5 man of marines for less than 100$, so that sucks

[@stevesandford7442]

Double those prices if you live in Australia...

[@jonathancooper4914]

What are ‘one page rules’ games!

[@walt_man]

@@rowbot5555 ouch!

[@thomasferris6870]

One of the things I have mentioned to my gaming buddies is that I no longer feel like studying the rules and army books. I don't want to have to spend years learning an edition only to have those books invalidated in faqs and point changes. I don't play compeditively but that is what pushes these changes constantly. Well that, and the cash grab fomo. I've been playing 40k since 1992 and they started loosing when they went to the 3 year cycle. The only game of theirs I still play is LotR. Yes they discontinued some models, but I also like collecting them.

[@elijahherstal776]

Necromunda > Literally every other GW IP game LotR does have some decent rules, too.

[@walt_man]

Agreed! I'm also old now and don't like reading tiny print and pages with big pictures! lol

[@lordbloodthehungry]

You don't have time to learn an edition before there's a new rules set.

[@thomasferris6870]

@lordbloodthehungry Actualy no. Say I only play once a month, buy the new rules and there is a FAQ immediately, rules changes, army book and a FAQ, and then a FAQ to the main rules, then point changes come. This cycles continuously through the product edition now. So keeping up with the rules now is a chore. My day job is keeping up with changing requirements and acceptance criteria. I prefer a less bloated more stable platform that create fun games. I stepped away from 40k at the end of 7th and started playing games like Pulp Alley and Fist Full of Lead. Great game play, stable rules very little bloat.

[@jamblpaints8453]

Even if it's your only hobby I don't understand how anyone keeps up

[@timidwolf]

All new edition codices should be released at the same time as their main rulebook. Miniature ranges can still be updated randomly without that limit, but their rules should either be already in their codex, or free and easily accessible online as an addition to their codex, whether just a new wargear option or an entirely new unit.

[@cavemanbum]

I started playing 40K during the Rogue Trader era 34 years ago while I was in college. I built and painted five monstrously large armies for the game. I gave up on 40K shortly after the release of 8th Edition in 2017; the endless rules bloat, FAQs, strategems, formations, supplements, points rises/drops, and the ever increasing cost was simply too much. I lost all joy in the game, and bid a fond farewell to GW. These days, my GW models have found new life in miniatures-agnostic games such as Grimdark Future, Stargrave, and Space Weirdos.

[@ironbomb6753]

You are not alone.

[@FureyinHD]

Same man I was a 40k guy since 1993 but had no fun with it since 7th. Recently discovered OPR and not play twice a week and have such fun.

[@MatthewSmith-xk8mz]

Definitely not alone, started at end of second edition and stopped during 8th, fantasy I stopped with age of sigmar, only really play mordheim and blood bowl these days. with the advent of so many other game systems its a shame as warhammer is close to my heart

[@isaiahfurrow7414]

Similar... I have been a collector and casual player since 4th edition, and when 6th came out then quickly turned into 7th plus supplements and such, when we hadn't even been able to get the codex books for all of our armies yet, I was upset and stopped buying into the revolving door of GW books... since then I have bought novels and played them, video games, etc... When Kill Team came out as a boxed game in 2018, with some nice terrain, etc... I picked that up and really enjoyed it. I used models from my existing armies and collection to make up rosters, and added about 10 more rosters of models to my collection specifically for kill team.... Then the next edition of Kill Team made almost every one of my models unplayable, not just nerfed but not even usable at all... out of more than a Dozen rosters, and 5 entire 40k armies, I could field 2 or 3 legal kill teams in that new rule set... I again just stepped away... I started playing solo once in a while in winter and still painting some, but even lost interest in finishing the models in my collection for the most part... After that last version of Kill Team came out, and during the last 2 or so years, I have become more and more interested in OPR Firefight and their other games... and I HAVE been debating buying the new $100 starter set that recently came out for Kill Team but I'm very hesitant to buy into anything GW again unless it's some minis that I REALY want to build and paint up, amd for now I still have plenty of those on a shelf both primed and still on sprees, as well as some partially painted but not "done" ... Not a fan of GWs release schedules at all, editions being near the end of a too short lifespan and codex books finally coming out for certain armies... and many models being eliminated from their games after so much had been invested into those models... no thanks... OPR it is for me, for the foreseeable future...

[@Blubb_Blubber]

- monopose characters are terrible - upgrade bits are getting rarer, with old DA you had tons of bits that everyone says scfi gothic - the invention of primaris and new gear has taken the charm out of forgotten tech - space marine armor shouldn't be antigrav, it should be chains - cawl did heresy according to the old definition of technology when he reinvented things - constructing everything around the theme of detachment feels wrong - limiting which hero can join which squad, especially as a first born player, feels wrong - squad size 3 feels wrong - the possibility to individualize cool is no longer given - the individuality (deathwing commando squad, talonmaster, bikes with techmarine or psyker) has been removed - the army is mostly only differentiated by heroes, color and detachment - crazy things like the warp field grenade, templates were cool - the fixation on the W6 is unfavorable, in the past the mutlimelter had 2W20 to penetrate an armored unit -a sometimes very poor rules language - the inability to balance the game - books are nice, but extremely impractical and no longer state of the art, at least not for playing - cards or app please - the game doesn't feel powerful anymore, in very old editions you had a lot of damage, big bam everything was strong, now everything is way too boring, each time I do one more damage, or don't hit one more ... -> so many things that are bad............... and yes, as a first born player i think it's terrible that everything is being phased out, it feels like trash bin

[@seileen1234]

The biggest issue is that GW release schedule doesn't accomodate the time required to build and paint the models. You cant build an entire wargame based on having 30/40/50/100 models and then release minis every month and a new books every 2 years, it's imposible to keep up because IF you are finally done... here's the new edition lmao. GW is an endless ouroboros of "start new and then who cares... sell everything and start again... and sell everything and start again". Always starting projects but never finish them is their ideal customer.

[@harz632]

It would be possible if the miniatures were cheap enough to be affordable for people that are unemployed. Problem is, unless you are working full time, you wont be able to afford them. But if you are working full time, then you can only have 40k as your hobby or you don't have enough time.

[@zacnewman7140]

...100 models should not be a two-year project. I know I'm on the upper end of productivity, but I chew through 10 models a week. Multiple factors go into that; I choose deliberately simple color schemes, I've focused heavily on learning speed-painting techniques, and I'm pretty good about sitting down to paint every day even if I only have time to put a single color on a single model. None of that is any kind of secret tech, it was just asking myself whether I wanted to enter painting contests or whether I wanted a finished army and aligning my efforts appropriately. And the funny thing is that I still get a lot of compliments on the quality of individual models, and I think it's because I've executed any given scheme or technique so many times that quantity has acquired a quality all it's own.

[@seileen1234]

@@zacnewman7140 It depends. I paint a lot so it's not an issue for me, but when I'm talking to other players all I see is a wave of grey plastic or horribly painted minis because they are always in FOMO mode for something.

[@justicar5]

You missed the parts where they never talked to, or listened to players, at all. Basically up to 7th edition, maybe 8th, their was very little fan interaction, and we had editions with armies that just didn't work, or broke the game totally.

[@johngalt200]

Well this would be something they "lost" so in fact they're better now.

[@Speakhardly]

I was hoping that someone mentions this. GW has also got better.

[@FPietros]

If Games Workshop fix their prices they will always remain at the top of the mountain.

[@Chunkypumpkinhead]

I dunno. I have a 3d printer and have developed a real taste for making my own models. Even if GW models were free at this point, they still have a product I don't really want for a game that doesn't have good rules. Also I effing hate them.

[@gindrinkersline3285]

40k 2nd & 3rd editions in the 1990s/2000s - that's where it's was at!

[@walt_man]

Rites of War Soundtrack intensifies!

[@Cobalt-60]

I stayed with it through 4e and into 5e, but then hung it up. I got tired of GW invalidating almost every build that I had made for my armies. Basically when Rick Priestly, Gav Thorpe, Andy Chambers, and Jervis Johnson were either no longer involved in the creation of 40K, or not at GW, I lost interest in their newer products. I ONLY got interested in Kill Team because it has allowed me to kitbash my old OOP RT-4e metal and plastic Citadel models to play in a new skirmish game.

[@Cobalt-60]

But I definitely think the Vehicle Design Rules (VDR) released in 2001 for WH40K 3e (1998-2004) is IMNSHO the pinnacle of 40K as a creative gamer hobby. It was after this that most of the above mentioned people left GW and the company became more corporatized.

[@cavemanbum]

@@Cobalt-60 AMEN! The VDR rules were awesome.

[@Cobalt-60]

@@cavemanbum My favorite VDR design was for a modified pair of 1/48 scale M2 Bradley IFV models that I kitbashed for my IG Arcturan Regiment (think old metal Cadians with Mordian officers) that had a turret-mounted auto-cannon w/ co-axial stormbolter, 2x H/K missiles, track covers, and an extra point of armor on the left & right sides compared to a Chimera. They were still amphibious, but could only carry 6-troops, so were not usable by regular infantry squads, armored fists, or ogryn squads. They were reserved for Company or Platoon HQ squads, 6-man assault or stormtrooper/grenadier squads, or 6-man hardened vet squads only, and were (obviously) a little more expensive than the standard STC Chimera model. But when combined as strengtheners to normal mechanized infantry units with Chimera (and supported by scout and armored sentinels with a variety of weapons), they really showed that IG was not ALWAYS mass swarms of foot sloggers, and could actually capture objectives.

[@Grogeous_Maximus]

Would you consider doing a video for newbies, who want to get into GW-free wargaming?

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Absolutely! Do you mean overviews of different types of games?

[@catherinedalzell3183]

@@LetsTalkTabletop I agree with "Gorgeous". I would like to see more about OPR. I also like Conquest - the minis are cool - but it doesn't seem to get much traction from KZbin.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

My problem with conquest is that every time I'm interested in looking into it, the miniatures are just as expensive as games workshop. It has deterred me from ever looking into it.

[@insomnia7337]

You can also play Warhammer without giving GW a dime. Download rules online, print proxy minis, use paints from Vallejo, AK etc. Give them a giant middle finger.

[@dustinroberson1865]

@@LetsTalkTabletop When I first bought into Conquest, the cost was a big positive for me. Then I realized that building an army isn't really any cheaper than AOS or W40k. The rules and app being free, is now the only benefit. The models I bought a few months ago were $50 for a unit (on par with GW), and the big models are on par with GW costs, but don't count for a big chunk of your army, which makes building even more expensive. I was hoping Conquest would have brought GW prices down if it got popular, instead, conquest has just gotten more expensive. When they offered 2000pt armies to buy, my army was over $600. I questioned it and one of their reps said that an AOS or 40K army could cost more than that. I responded with the fact that they could also cost a lot less than that. My NH 2k army if bought full price, is less than $500. That's buying everything separate with no deals. Buying a 2000 pt army all at once, should offer deals of some sort.

[@benjaminmcclure3897]

It’s every 3 years for a new edition btw. Still too quick, but worth noting

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

I guess it just seems quicker because I play age of Sigmar and 40K and they have a staggered release schedule.

[@Macwylee]

people have been saying 3d printers were going to hurt GW *any year now* since 5th ed.

[@Subject_Keter]

It like coding, how many people say you should do it. And how many coders are normal and not guys or girls who chain up girls in their basement? 😂

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

I understand your sentiment, but I still believe it is a future reality. I am not a 3D printer bro per se, but I think it's inevitable. And of course we should keep the logic of stock traders and remember that past results are no indicator of future gain. Just because the past was a certain way doesn't mean the future will be.

[@4of122]

Are you sure it doesnt hurt them and by extension their customers, because the price gouging gets worse? And a lot of the things they do, sure feels like its meant to just cause you to buy more stuff. Deleting armies for example or having a new meta in an allegedly competitive game where you shell out a few hundred bucks for your tools to play it.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

I 100% think it hurts the prices further. 3D printing lowers games workshops sales, and in turn they raise the price which just makes more people go to 3D printing. I actually think they are trying to grab as much money as possible because they see the end is near in the next decade or so. I don't mean they will cease to exist, they will probably have slumping sales and be bought out by a bigger company such as Hasbro. But selling miniatures may not be their prime money maker anymore.

[@Macwylee]

@@LetsTalkTabletop fair enough.

[@SaradominRecksYou]

I haven't been able to play 40k in years; but if I was to play again, I would find a group of friends willing to play 4th or 5th edition. I think finding 1 edition that you like and sticking with it is the wise move for friends groups.

[@zacharyloflin3523]

My faith started crumbling when AoS killed Fantasy and it wasn’t because I didn’t like and play AoS, it’s because weeks before it was announced, I had bought a ton of dwarves which basically disappeared once Sigmar hit.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Oh no! I do remember the death of fantasy being very sudden. That sucks. A similar thing happened with my friend who just painted his final unit of beasts of chaos like 2 months before they just made the announcement they were going to be discontinued.

[@theshamurai32]

​​@@LetsTalkTabletopI am praying to Grandfather Nurgle that this doesn't happen to Daemons as a standalone army soon. Started to hear rumors that Daemons is going to get the Harlequin treatment and used exclusively as allies, separated and rolled into each deity's traitor legion, or outright squatted. Given I've spent most of this edition building a standard sized Daemons army (and having a blast doing it), it would be enough for me to get a 3d printer, find other sources like Wahapedia for rules, stick to my local independent game shops, and abandon any interaction with GW altogether.

[@Bobamelius]

GW is pivoting to a different audience. most of my friend group are MTG players, extremely analytical people who love to optimize, and they are liking 40k more and more as it goes in the competitive direction. i'm very much the opposite; i don't mind things not being perfectly balanced if you get more flavorful rules, and i don't mind relying on my opponent to just not be a dick and to restrain himself from spamming the things that are plainly overpowered.

[@RMCbreezy]

3 ballistus dreadnoughts go brr

[@oldAzekai]

You are 100% right. The LOTR SBG community is going through its own throes, having a trivial edition update but a lot of the range has just been relegated to the bin. Whole armies, like monsters of Mirkwood, gone. Supposedly the new licensing agreement precludes anything that isn’t exactly as it appears in the movies. So giving Celeborn a shield or armor because he fought in the 2nd age isn’t possible. He just wore pajamas in the movie, so that is exactly as he must appear on the tabletop.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

OMG. That sounds terrible. Yeah I did know about the killing of a lot of The Lord of the rings miniatures, I forgot to mention it in the video. But I definitely feel for your community.

[@JMACCSArmiesOfMiddleEarth]

Yet gil galad actually had a sheild in the film but not allowed to take one. GW logic

[@nicholassinnett2958]

@@JMACCSArmiesOfMiddleEarth He appears for maybe ten frames in the final cut, I think? Surprised he's allowed to not look like a blur.

[@RMCbreezy]

Celeborn isn't the guy who died at Helms Deep?

[@jamesmaclennan4525]

@@RMCbreezy No that was Haldir..and in the books he never went there.

[@walt_man]

Named creators, named artists, Rick Priestly, Andy Chambers, Jervis, Alan Merret [IP protector]. From serious weekly games in 2001 to now, so many people have quit 'playing the game' around me. They still do model building though.

[@walt_man]

Your gaming room is nice btw!

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Thank you! And thank you for watching!

[@BloodDX2]

40k needs to adopt 2 formats of play; Competetive and Codex. Competetive could be what we have now. Constantly updating rules, hyper focus on balance. Etc. Designed for balanced and tournament play. Codex would be the book is final. Whatever your book for that edition says is the way it goes. It could focus more on army themes, skewed play aimed at less balance and more just good fun. As it stands both of these ways of play are trying to coexist and are being forced to mix in a way that just doesnt work and takes away from both. And it's doing more to push people away than anything; and once that happens; people try other games and never come back.

[@sleeplessknight99]

Did everyone just forget that open play exists? What happens when someone else's army is broken and unplayable right on release? What happens when your army is OP and un-fun to play against on release? Ho hum, just gotta deal with it. Suck it up like Tyranids players did from 4th through 9th edition.

[@theshamurai32]

@@BloodDX2 I'd be ok with this on the condition that they fine-tune the codex releases more to reflect that. One of my armies is Custodes and our codex this edition was a borderline insult in how slapdash it was at time of print, likely partially due to the expectation that they could FAQ and errata it into a better state afterwards. Even with fixes, we're stuck with only two real detachment options this edition because of the rush job, three if you count the new one in the Grotsmas detachments. If they tamp down their quality control at GW and produce codexes that have enough variety and are enjoyable to play, then I could see codex mode working, but it would require making codexes that were substantial and flavorful enough to be worth committing to for an entire edition as is.

[@bradleycavalier1311]

Something I'm still sore about was the war GW waged on fan animations, The emperor text to speech got me into 40k.

[@troyfiss9332]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm reluctant to buy kill team boxes or say Votann because I don't know if they'll be around in a few years. And Space Marines are in a very strange place model-wise. Will land raiders continue to be a thing? Centurions?

[@vulpinemachine]

This is the benefit of players like myself who are willing to use third party rules and/or do lots of RPG play and just want really cool miniatures. :) I think rules are the biggest thing that is broken in warhammer. Eliminate those and 80% of the problems go away.

[@benjamineisenhofer8174]

When GW changed from promoting DIY hobbying to Only Official Stuff in mid 2000s or so they lost me.

[@mtgmac1]

This is what happens when you pander to the competitive crowd. It's cool, your game gets balanced. But it loses its soul in the process.

[@thecasualwargamer5195]

Agreed. Competitive play has killed a lot of the fun of 40K.

[@walt_man]

From the video.. "Lost my trust in GW" is very true, in fact a lot of people online may not just be able to express that in the correct way. War Machine did the competitive crowd thing... didnt go well.

[@mtgmac1]

Regarding the loss of trust - story time. After starting in 3e I left warhammer at the arse-end of 7th due to the complete random idiocy the game has become. Vowing never to return, unless GW somehow brings back the army I always wanted - the space dwarfs. 9e rolls around and the april fools video is released. There I bloody was - hyped. Again. I was eager to jump in, me brass balls deep, into warhammer again, with my favorite army! I bought in, I printed the rest. I played. And I got burned. In a succession of crappy choice after crappy decision GW has: 1. released a completely broken Votann dex in 9e 2. which was nerfed to hell and back BEFORE ITS RELEASE 3. then GW proceeded to forget the army ever existed, in almost 3 years releasing NOTHING for the army apart from some kill teams and one bloody lore book 4. which doesnt even add any cool new lore for the Leagues. And now 5. Leagues are staring down 2025 without their dex, still being forgotten by GW 6. with their grotmas detachment clearly showing that they will be reworked YET AGAIN because none of the detachment rules even interact with the main mechanic - judgment tokens. Shame on you GW. Fool me once, shame on you. But I've now been fooled twice.

[@madmoody100]

I started in 1991. I had a squat army in rogue trader. I also had a 'shooty' ork army. Both of these were practically destroyed in 1998 with the release of 3rd edition. I have not trusted gw for a very long time. P.s. I still play 2nd and 1st edition.

[@RMCbreezy]

My lady wanted Votann, but with the lack of releases and love I just bought her Orks. We know they won't squat Orks

[@madmoody100]

​@RMCbreezy well they did. A second ed ork.army was a lot of bolt guns and decent shooting ability. That changed completely.

[@RMCbreezy]

@@madmoody100 all I was saying is Orks won't get squatted. Changing load outs is different than taking a faction away, no?

[@r31n0ut]

I basically stopped playing. I still buy minis when I think they're cool, but I don't think I've played a single game of 10e and I haven't gotten through the 3e AoS starter booklet yet. And it's for the same reasons you mentioned; I'm too busy and playing a game takes all afternoon. I don't think I played 9th either... and the funny thing is they don't have to do this at all. They want to release a new edition every year because then they can sell a big box that everyone will buy so the profit numbers look good for the summer. But they could do that without changing the rules. Every 3 years you release a new starter set with different armies, a campaign supplement and the rulebook update with the faq's since last year's book. But it's all still compatible with the old rules, so if you don't care about these armies, you can just skip one and be fine.

[@Penguish211]

My friends and I started playing a home-brew version of 5th edition with alternating activation

[@edpistemic]

I like 40k lore video and painting minis. I play quite a lot of board games. It is bizarre to me that so many people are happy playing a war-game where the whole of one side goes before the other! Alternating activation should have been in the official rules long ago!

[@alphaomega938]

Primaris and the ‘modern audience’ take has poisoned GW’s soul

[@VPLewr]

I've spent in 2024 aprox 10% of what I've spent in 2023 regarding GW products, and I don't plan spending more than that in 2025. Precisesly for the reasons you laid out in this video.

[@garryame4008]

Anyone know what that wall mounted model display is from? It looks great

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Thanks! It's from Amazon and it's a Funko Pop display case. When I bought mine they were like $45 but now they're like $75 or something like that. But they're still well worth it. They have a size that's still around $45 but it holds less miniatures obviously.

[@jeffers1985]

Gw are ever creeping to that make or break point. Pricing is out of control and im looking at alternatives. No way kids now can afford to even buy in. Their stock is increasing due to selling the IP.

[@maximumattackrallying]

"While their stock may continue to soar overall and their new sets may continue to sell out constantly, that doesn't mean Games Workshop is winning". But it literally DOES mean that. They are making huge amounts of money and are about to join the top 100 companies in the UK. GW is a business and, at the end of the day, it is beholdant to shareholders. As long as it continues to make money, then it is a success story in business terms. Now sure, that might alienate some fans, players and collectors, but those people aren't forced into buying the miniatures, or playing the latest game. It's easy to say they have "lost" something, and that seasoned players are losing interest, but there will always be natural turnover and, after 20 years playing a game, should it be any surprise that you're starting to look elsewhere? Our interests and priorities evolve over time, just as businesses do. People like that aren't who GW need to target. What's important is getting new players in the door, as that is what continues the cycle. While I understand the point about a lack of longevity since they switched to a two-year edition cycle, you don't have to follow that cycle. You said that you should be able to use a product for as long as you like, and you can absolutely do that. You can still play 1st or 2nd edition 40k if you want to, or buy second-hand miniatures, or 3D print stuff. The beauty of the hobby is you can do it however you want to. You can play any edition, use any miniatures, or even make up your own rules if you want. The only people the constant rule changes have definitive impact on is those who play competitively. Everyone else can just pick and choose the bits they like and ignore anything they don't. In terms of 3D printing and rival manufacturers, I think the threat is (at the moment at least) overstated. While they offer great options for seasoned wargamers, newbies are still far more likely to access the hobby through Games Workshop. Their level of brand recognition is orders of magnitude larger than any other wargaming business, so they are the go-to for new players and will be for many years to come. Those other games might enjoy some success as people get further into the hobby and look to diversify, but GW games are still the most widely played, so it makes it much easier to find other people to play with, which helps to perpetuate their market domination. 3D printing brings many benefits, but most people still don't have one, so are buying the parts from third-party suppliers. Again though, that tends to be more seasoned hobbyists. Many, many, many people will still be buying purely GW products, as they are easily accessible and of (generally) very high quality. A word on cost too; having bought my first miniatures some 30 years ago, I don't fully understand the argument of increasing prices. GW products were ALWAYS expensive and, when you consider inflation, the prices haven't actually gone up that much for most stuff. What has gone up MASSIVELY however is the quality, which is leagues above what it was when I started. GW does face challenges in the future, as younger people increasingly gravitate towards the digital instead of the physical, but people have long been predicting their doom, while the company continues to grow and thrive. The fact they have diversified into video games, other merchandise, books, and now TV with Amazon, shows that the leadership are well aware of the risks in the plastic business, and are now leveraging the power of the brand and lore to develop other income streams. If they can make a success of the Amazon deal, their value could increase massively. There seem to be more and more of these "GW suck" videos appearing but, ultimately, GW is just a business doing business things. They don't owe us anything, and it doesn't matter if they do or not. What people need to remember is that Warhammer is all about creativity, fun and enjoying the aspects of the hobby that appeal to you. That means you can pick whatever rules or miniatures that you like and hang the rest.

[@stefanovettor6507]

And to be fair… there are plenty of people (even veteran players) happy with many of the decisions taken lately. I like 10th edition… I am so happy that points for gear went away… I like the primaris… I love monopose models. Would I prefer a slower release cycle for rules? Sure. But I am not that troubled by it either!

[@Knightfall8]

In other words, GW has lost the "Stillmania" vibes (veterans likely know what I refer to!)

[@alex-simpson]

I got back into Warhammer during COVID like many people, and I still like to collect and paint the models. I haven't played a game since 1997 though. I bought a 3D printer a couple of years ago and had great fun printing WH-adjacent models - but honestly when you factor in all the faffing about and cost of printing supplies and equipment, as well as the finicky nature of resin printers, it works out cheaper to just buy the models from a FLGS - although i have a couple of really cool printed 40k Chaos Knight proxies that look absolutely amazing. I might play a game again at some stage.

[@RMCbreezy]

I mean it all depends on what printer you buy and how often shit goes sideways

[@theshamurai32]

I don't mean any offense, but how the hell could printing come out as similar or more expensive in cost than buying first party? Even if you have several bad batches, you're still talking a fraction of a fraction of the cost per unit. Where I live in the states, your average battleline troop unit is going to run you at least $50, and that's building in the discount on a provider like Amazon rather than the MSRP plus game store markup turning it closer to $60 or $70. For the same cost in resin and supplies, you could print several different units. And that's just comparing one standard battleline, the basic unit of an army. It gets even worse when you start hunting for specialty units that can often be far more expensive and difficult to find in stock or a singular character for $30-$40.

[@shoggg]

Just bought the new lotr box. It's an awesome System.

[@Karandras118]

I just have to say I love the look of the table. My dream is to build a jungle board with some 40K elements to make it look like catachan or a jungle death world. I know it is not the topic of the video but where did you geht the trees? Cheers!

[@robs8438]

This applies to GW's paint range as well. Changes to the trifecta (nuln oil, aggrax, seraphim seppia), removal of certain citadel sprays (looking at you averland sunset), removal of glazes. What GW has done, which I presume was to encourage people to use their contrast range, has encouraged me to buy vallejo rather than have to invent ways to continue my color schemes when GW goes on a 3 week bender and decides to change the pallette. *edit for a spelling mistake*

[@nicholassinnett2958]

Not reformulating their white and off-white paints to not go on like liquid chalk is the main thing that's pushed me away, honestly. They discontinued Ceramite White, but the other whites and offwhites are still rough enough to ruin a good paint job if you aren't lucky. If Pro Acryl, AK, and Two Thin Coats have solved this issue, so can they. Changing the Shades to stain the raised areas less actually made me want to use them, but I get why it annoyed people who used the old ones a lot.

[@RMCbreezy]

You know Vallejo is a slum lord right? They won't even fix their leaky roof for their employees. It's like buying Nikes, you're supporting a shit system

[@waringpepper]

I agree with you Scott. GW has turned away from the "guys having some beers and rolling dice" audience and went to the "competitive hyper balanced" audience. I agree with your point this will kill them in the end. With how successful stuff like Trench Crusade Fundraising ($4.5 million) or Turnip 28 whent it shows there is a real desire to move away from Warhammer (but still want that grim dark vibe). Plus all the models and armies they put into 'legions'. They keep squeezing and people are sick and tired of their prices. I'm looking for other games to play and look forward to playing your Mass Brutality. People's wallets are really tight of late and GW's view is "let them eat cake" well my 3d printer will keep going BRRRRRR in defiance! viva la revolution!

[@Ducos_]

There is no way, with 40k about to become the new defacto zeitgeist space franchise this will affect them anytime soon.

[@ralphhathaway-coley5460]

@@Ducos_ Yeh, and Hasbro said the same thing about DnD/ADnD ......... How's that going for yer Hasbro? 🤪 ........ and if that even looks like that model might work, micro-transactions and all, GW will be up that drainpipe quicker than a rat on speed!

[@TaylorX-g4b]

first off, Trench Crusade is never beating 40k for market share. While the setting and the vibe are awesome, the models they sell are just NEVER going to hit regular store shelves across the US, much less the rest of the world; other countries have varying degrees of censorship laws and cultures, with a lot being much less open to gore and violence compared to US. Also, $4.5 million is a lot for a fundraiser but is nothing in the enterprise sphere. Assuming Trench Crusade grows in popularity and the creators found a company that is 10x times their fundraising number, GW is a $5.5 billion market cap company; that is $5,500 million by the way. You would need over 1 thousand Trench Crusade fundraisers to even come close to being at the level GW is at...

[@darkhighwayman1757]

I found a telegram page with a ton of stls

[@seanmcguire8474]

@@TaylorX-g4b, Wrong. Look at the dominance, Disney once had, and the rest in our laurels and they are not the Giants that they used to be. Kings of war is increasing in popularity, and I’ve been told by friends in parts of England, and there are parts in Dayton, Ohio, and other places that King’s war is giving stiff competition to GW. Everybody thinks at the giant can’t fall, but here’s the thing the bigger they are the harder they fall.

[@belgarath97]

4:03 every 2 years, 2023, 2020, 2017, 2014... that's 4 editions every 3 years. What are you talking about?

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

I play both age of Sigmar and 40K and the releases are staggered, so it feels much sooner than 3 years. Good catch..

[@papaaaaaaa2625]

Is every 3 years better, taking into account that faction specific Material is published separately? Do you remember 9th Edition and the Codex for Astra Militarum...how many weeks did the players get between publishing and Edition change?

[@belgarath97]

@@papaaaaaaa2625 there is always a last codex. Unless they put all the books out at the same time, someone will get the short end of that stick.

[@belgarath97]

@@LetsTalkTabletop when you choose to follow more the one game, then you will always have double or triple or quadruple the amount of change. That is company agnostic and a function of the player playing more game systems.

[@papaaaaaaa2625]

@@belgarath97 yep, you're right. There is always a "last" codex...but not because the game is or gets optimized, but the business model behind it. A 3 year rotation...for a game with little plastic figures🤣 By the way, how long is a codex, in its release form, usable without Errata? Or Rulesets for 1 Faction...published in several different Rule books? And after 3 years, after most launch difficulties got ironed out...TADA...a new Edition. Some believe that GWs Rulesets aren't perfect. I say they are absolutely perfect, but not from a gamers perspective! They're ALWAYS optimized for the business model, for GW as a company. GW did something spectacular, they invented a built-in obsolescence for printed media and the related miniature game, genius.

[@jacobstevenson689]

Getting a 3d printer for christmas, seems like this is the only way I'll be able to enjoy the hobby in a financially responsible way to be honest

[@javanrhodes5951]

For each content creator getting burnt out, there are probably 50 people starting their first army.

[@NikitaLapshov-k4f]

But are those new people as dedicated as the ones who leave? Obviously GW doesnt care, but the community of the game does suffer

[@larryargent503]

Essentially what you said. I had a bretonnian army, a tomb king army, a mixed gods daemon army with mortal allies and a combined Eldar/dark eldar army that I had painted to match in aesthetics. Suddenly I had two redundant armies, a bunch of units I couldn't feasibly use, and my eldar army had to go back to being pure eldar or dark eldar and was completely unbalanced. I would show up for battles using my Dark Eldar and take one look at the guys army before he set up and I'd just shake his hand and say you win. They would look almost confused or alarmed and want to know why and I'd be like. I have 4 dark lances, and you have an entirely mechanised army. GG mate. You win. I got absolutely sick of the meta chasing. The attitudes of players totally changed too. Made the game far too competitive and the players seemed really salty.

[@FureyinHD]

What's been a revelation to me is switching to One Page Rules. I'm a wargamer again, instead of an exploited consumer.

[@radeadcool]

I hear you, brother. Back in the day, I used to spend more on buying models (and I bought a lot) rather than worrying about rules that are constantly changing. I lost faith over time and switched to 3D printing, which I’ve been doing for years now. The details are way better, and the cost is so much lower. I also miss how creative things used to be. One of my core childhood memories is going to a store on late-night shopping nights and turning scraps into amazing terrain-fly screens turned into fences, foam transformed into city buildings, and dollar store finds used for all kinds of projects. I think part of the problem is Kevin Rountree as CEO. He’s an accountant, not a customer, and seems to lack a real understanding of the product he has. To him, it’s all just numbers, and he often says the wildest things-like when they mess with the lore, charging us more in a cost of living crisis, or overproduce certain armies. It’s frustrating.

[@ellagrant6190]

The aggressive release schedule seems to be a purely cynical move to make more money. It drives more sales through new rulebooks, new boxed sets and by changing the meta, it can also drive changes in your army for new miniatures.

[@keithjackson7261]

They are an investor ran company and are rapidly pricing themselves out of existence,which is fine with them as they will just move on to another company and ravage that one, rinse repeat.

[@jamese4077]

You would think but people have been saying that for years and it hasn't happened yet. They are climbing the British stock market and with GW getting income from the Black Library, video games, and other I.P.'s, it's not going to happen :(

[@JasanQuinn]

Buying a Codex used to give you deep, interesting, in-universe lore for your faction. They seem to have abandoned that because it gets in the way of the money. In 3rd edition we got "here is the entire fighting strength of the Ultramarines Chapter, circa 3.415.816.M41" In 4th edition we got "here is the entire 2nd Company of the Ultramarines, even showing the individual armour variants used by each Battle Brother". In 10th edition we get "Space Marines come in Chapters."

[@cfsm984]

I will be the devils advocate here, but I really don't understand your point in this video. First, you complain about paying for rules that change with FAQs, then immediately mentions ways to have the rules for free. If you don't go to tournaments, who cares where you get your rules from? The minis changing from time to time is exactly what we want: New minis. Ask any Eldar player if they are not happy with their refresh. If you cannot keep up with the release cycle, just buy and paint what you like. Again, for causal play, who cares if the minis you like are not meta by the time you finish painting them? In the end I'm lost at what exactly you want from GW (except for cheaper minis, we all want that... lol).

[@DakotaMilesO]

Lmao the corporate simps have arrived!

[@cfsm984]

@ plz don’t cry too much…

[@yesyesyesyes1600]

Maybe you should watch the video again. You seem to lack some comprehension skills. I as a not native speaker could easily follow his arguments

[@MrZauberelefant]

//First, you complain about paying for rules that change with FAQs, then immediately mentions ways to have the rules for free// That's not a contradiction. //If you don't go to tournaments, who cares where you get your rules from?// well, you need to adjust to the ecosystem around you, and for casual players looking for a match in a FLGS, GW sets the ecosystem by virtue of editions. For the same exosystems, GW will exclude mini's that you bought from current editions, gave them money for and stop supporting them with rules. //In the end I'm lost at what exactly you want from GW// The promise of GW used to be: You buy our product, we will support your hobby. They used to keep things runnable to a very large degree, and then we have Stormcast being cancelled, Firstborn becoming non viable, etc. This is about trust, mostly. And you may call that naive, but that wasn't a naive position 10 years ago.

[@harz632]

I started when 5th edition came out and the changes GW did in recent years completely turned me off from the hobby, it was hard enough to find time and people to play regularly especially when you got a Deathwatch campaign going on too so it ended up with me playing like 2 games a month and it's just not worth it to pay that much money just so you can play like 6-7 games with it.

[@MarkDaw]

What was really sad for me, was I recently ran a fun 40k game inviting a few friends over. It featured a fortress I hand made. I created some fun fortress and game rules, from old 8th, 7th, 6th edition books. One rule was there for pure fun and onna role of a D6, you may get some mortal wounds to a model. I couldn't believe how anti this rule my mates were, because it felt unbalanced, or too random. Two mates arguing about it's inclusion. I kept saying, but Warhammer used to be about having fun, who cares, this adds narrative, it's just for fun. Warhammer 40k has become so bland, it made me a bit sad inside for my friends.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Yeah it sounds like you have terrible friends. I would gladly play your narrative scenario. Most of my gaming group would as well.

[@RMCbreezy]

Like you just roll for mortals for no reason and no cost? I'd be bitching about it too

[@goo_goose1]

It really is true.. It's not the cost for me. It's the feeling that by the time I get the film off the shiny new thing it's already comically outdated at prerelease. Essentially never functional as point values are just a flying guess. I could be more forgiving if it felt that the game was being perfected, but it feels to me that they're just fumbling to figure out things like; movement, line of sight, terrain. In the 10th edition of a decades old game.. Magic is trying EVERY bit as hard to get every penny of my money, but it doesn't feel bad because I don't have to rebuild my deck and relearn how to play commander EVERY time I play. And my cards, ever increasing in cost though they may be, DO the thing printed on them. Forever

[@kakalukio]

It's the same issue that videogames have. Everything uses the SaaS model now, with a strong focus on "competitive" and "balanced" stuff. Because it's an great excuse to push out an absurd amount of updates that you can sell. It creates hype and lots of recurring revenue. A CEO's wet dream. But it sucks for everyone who wants to play with their favorite faction for more than half a year before the rulebook is out of date again.... Plus, the obsession with "competitive" balance just results in less fun designs. It results in abstract game-y design, that doesn't work well for the power-fantasies of what you're doing. Which is especially weird for something like warhammer, whose appeal is so reliant on fluff & rule of cool. If you want to play a "competitive" and "balanced" game, you might as well just go play chess or something, save yourself the trouble of having to paint miniatures of orks and knights.

[@alexgonzalez7218]

This video explains a lot of reasons why I haven’t branched out to playing any edition of 40k or even combat patrol. Kill team has been made so easily accessible rule wise and has a fairly decent amount of variety in terms of what I want to play and all for what used to be 60 dollars. Unfortunately they did raise prices on the single team boxes so they’ll be getting less of my money.

[@theshamurai32]

@@alexgonzalez7218 I love Kill Team so much, I honestly have started preferring it to 40k and pointing new people interested there first as an entry point. Not only is it cheaper, simpler to pick up, and more convenient to play casually, but I feel like I get more "flair" out of it. Kill Team has that narrative focus that really drives me in games (I'm an RPG player first, wargamer second), whereas in 10th edition 40k I often feel like a match is just a scrimmage with all the style and panache of running a finance sheet in excel. Since it's only one squad of a handful of models, I feel like I can really flex the hobbying muscles by painting each model with thorough personalized details and consider things like their backstories and the broader narrative between games, which is an exercise in futility with a big army. Plus it's a bit of a personal bias. I am a soldier in my working life, so leading a squad of a handful of troops clearing buildings, finding vantage points, and engaging in a firefight is a lot more grounded to what I'm used to than commanding an army of dozens of models in varying sizes, stats, and battlefield roles.

[@frazerbaker6089]

I was a regular buyer from my local GW store in Australia until they said no painting in the store and no gaming in there either. It was only for purchasing Warhammer and then get the heck out of here. That felt like a kick in the balls to a long time fan and customer. I don’t have a 3D printer but I buy 3D proxy minis from Etsy now when I can.

[@LonePonderer]

to games workshop you are no longer a gamer, you arent a fan...you're a consumer.

[@EvLmongoose]

Thank you for putting to words that feeling that has been gnawing since they switched to 32mm bases. I started in 3rd edition and I had enjoyed being able to use the same miniatures I had invested hours and hours of hobby time.

[@rageofachilles7400]

Yeah i lost trust in them too for the same reason and i used to work in a GW store back in the early 1990's. I had spent thousands on minis over 35 years. I enjoyed 40k in 4th and 5th editions. I had a gap of a few years until picking it up again and tried 9th edition, hated it , played 2 games and then 10th came out , and i was thinking wtf did i just buy all those books for? So i left them, got a 3d printer, learned to 3d model , produced a line of minis and wrote my own game. i can't say i will ever go back to GW now, the 3d print market is far more varied and frankly has far better minis than GW.

[@dustinroberson1865]

Paying for rules is what kept me out in the first place. My buddy finally got me to start playing AOS. I find that paying for rules just locks players out. Not just out of the game, but out of playing multiple factions. So many people choose not to play the game because they don't want to need to keep paying to play with models they already bought. GW makes a lot more money selling miniatures than they do selling rules. The rules are just a cash grab for them to get extra money. If the rules were free through the app, more people would play the game, which would sell more models. More players would play multiple factions, which sells more models. Now that 3d printing is getting cheaper, people are looking at ways to cut costs, because the cost to play is way to high. Now they are running into a barrier of entry that keeps people from starting the hobby. The people playing the hobby are tired of all of the cost, so they are finding other ways to cut costs (3d printing, downloading the rules online), so they are losing profit from those that are playing. If they made the rules free, at least they might still get new players, which could sell more models and help with profits. My fdm printer prints a fairly decent looking miniature. If GW doesn't change their ways soon, they are in for a lot of problems. With all of the added costs and nickel and diming (can we really call it that...more like $10 and $20ing) I don't feel bad about buying recasts, 3d printing, and downloading the rules. In reality, if those avenues weren't available, I probably wouldn't be playing anymore anyway.

[@chrismorel8613]

I can remember when, if you learned the base game (40k/WHFB) you basically knew how to play the " spin off" games set within that larger universe . Deciding to pick up necromunda/mordheim/gorkamorka as a side game did not mean you had to learn a whole new jarring set of rules. You just knew like 90% of them. Plus a lot of the time you could use your existing miniatures.

[@bentonday4539]

What they just did to lord of the rings hurts bad. Lord of the rings for 20 years has actively encouraged converting and hobbying. Giving wargear options everywhere across the board. No they say if there is no model with the wargear, then you can no longer bring them legally in the game. I have multiple completely converted armies that have been make 95% illegal. This is a big insult to long time players and not to mention will screw up the balance of the game tremendously. I have friends that simply have too mich faith in GW and it feels bad being proven right😢

[@keegobricks9734]

again coming at this from a different perspective, as a non table top player and just a lore fan, I'm having the same issues. I mean, I loved warhammer fantasy and they just straight up obliterated it, and you might like the AoS miniatures but to me it looks like world of warcraft slop. The thing I loved about warhammer fantasy was it originally was meant to be renaissance Europe (albeit a hammed up one) with fantasy elements. Now AoS is just the fantasy elements with lipservice to non-fantasy elements existing in it, like how warcraft or star wars operates and I hate that. So fantasy is out, and we look at 40k. So, 10k years of stagnation then suddenly "even marinier space marines appear". That was SUCH an obvious cash grab you can't look at it seriously as a new lore development, it just stands out so much as "buy our plastic". Then shortly after this we had the Deep Rock Galactic faction added. The logic being "Oh they were just hidden or something, who cares... buy our plastic". Of ALL the lore for the Eldar, Tau, Orks that we could have gotten, GW made it once again clear they have factions they want you to buy instead, and I can't be bothered with it. The only thing that I have any mild interest in, is the orks, and lately we got a handful of fun video games that focus on them, that's practically the only bit of 40k Media I have any interest in. Now with the Amazon thing coming out, this will pretty much put a shelf life on what's left of the lore, because it's only a matter of years before GW let's the lore get mutilated beyond recognition, and it's been clear it wasn't something they ever respected to begin with. So table top aside, as someone who just liked the lore, we're getting dumb change after dumb change, and the sword of Damocles poised above it's empty head in the form of an Amazon series. It's all worked to push me away from the franchise altogether, which means I'm not buying books, games or any TV/movies that I could potentially have been a big sucker for. Heck, I might have even dabbled in the miniatures if the lore was cool enough. Maybe even more than that, I actually want them to fail, so I actively discourage people away from it, and want to laugh at them when they start failing.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Wow. "Looks like World of Warcraft slop" is such a biting criticism that is valid and never occurred to me before. I personally do like the aesthetic of age of sigmar, but I can totally see how you'd say that.

[@keegobricks9734]

@@LetsTalkTabletop Yeah it's not the aesthetic I dislike, I said "looks like" but I was referring to the lore. I should have said "feels like". The aesthetic itself is okay, it's taking the already over the top parts of warhammer fantasy and making them into the entire thing. It's like a cake made out of nothing but icing. "The icing is the best part" but no one in their right mind sits there eating a plate of icing. It feels like some of the units of AoS should be a single hero in warhammer fantasy, instead it's just the entire army. I personally dislike it, but if it was something like blood bowl where it exists as a separate thing that might be okay, but AoS came directly at the expense of Warhammer fantasy. That's why I call it World of warcraft like slop. hundreds of players running around with the supposedly super-ultra rare ancient weapons and armor that's "legendary". That kind of thing.

[@RMCbreezy]

Where did WoW touch you?

[@schroecat1]

Yep, when GW killed the Sacrosanct Chamber of Stormcast, that was the clear moment that told me that it's time for me to move on. The best models in the entire Stormcast range, less than 6 years old, gone. Thanks GW, I can find other uses for my hobby dollars.

[@rickardrakkoon2500]

New GW said " We are 1st and foremost a manufacturing company." And thats is why they are already dead, just hooked up to a rusted throne like someother ineffective leader.

[@TheAurgelmir]

3D printing means companies can make competing rulesets without needing to have their own miniature lines, and there's enough variety online for people to pick and choose from. What GW has had going for them is being the market leader, and having an inspiring lore (Inspiring in the sense that you have a lot of inspiration to go on when making your army). That's something that lacks in for instance One Page Rules. But, the lore of 40k feels like it's been going the corporate path of sanitization. It's no longer the Grim Dark. And the models too feel a lot more generic than in the past with many different factions sharing design features too. The Primaris powerpacks having that round part, that looks like a Tau drone thing. Or the Leagues of not-Squats having helmets with features you can find similarly on those Gravis jump Primaris guys. And the creativity aspect is being diminished by the previously almost endlessly modular Space Marine kits now having Primaris, Horus Heresy and Chaos Space Marines no longer sharing the same template or sizes.

[@r31n0ut]

I think 3d printing is going to be a big problem for GW. right now I can print bits with 0.2mm on my bambu a1 and after a layer of paint you don't even notice the layers, especially at tabletop distance. 5 years ago this was a non-issue. Imagine what the possibilities will be 5 years from now. They could lean into it. All those space marine chapters and guard regiments that aren't popular enough to warrant getting their own plastic kits? you could sell those bits as stls. if you compare Warhammer to gundam, gundam leaves warhammer in the dust. multiple colors on one sprue, articulating pieces right on the sprue, way more plastic for way cheaper... It really feels like GW hit a technological plateau.

[@RMCbreezy]

Except Gundam is lame my guy XD

[@r31n0ut]

@RMCbreezy I agree it's not my vibe at aĺl, but I'm talking about the technical aspect. Gundam kicks warhammer's ass when it comes to price for quality.

[@RMCbreezy]

@@r31n0ut oh absolutely. Pretty sure their stuff comes painted too right?

[@r31n0ut]

@RMCbreezy i think it's just colored plastic, the way gw does for the underworlds kits. Except they get multiple colors on a sprue.

[@TheAurgelmir]

8th Edtion Indexes were actually a brilliant idea. Sure units were more "generic" but at least every army got an update at the same time, and you could purchase something like three books and have the rules for every army out at the time.

[@benc3342]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Love your content. Don't change. Does Brutality have solo play?

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Thank you! I am a big solo gamer so all of my games include AI logic trees, solo missions and solo support.

[@paulbaker5256]

I bought a couple of the really nice army sets for AOS during 3rd edition. The ones that come with a couple of core units, a commander, the battle tome, warscroll cards. Less than a year later, a new edition is released, the book and cards are obsolete. Add to which, they’ve pulled another stunt where the more recent army sets are *almost* a spearhead under the new rules. But you still have to buy a different unit or commander to use your army with that system. All a cynical cash grab and taking their fans for granted.

[@GoatTheGoat]

If you have only been playing for sixteen years, then you have only seen GW become more player focused over time. You started just about peak corporate GW.

[@KevinoftheCosmos]

It just hurts. You know, knowing that the ones who spent thousands upon thousands (me) don't really matter to GW. It really is like the cliche of the painful divorce after years of dedicated investment and effort.

[@Doomer1984]

Respect for soldiering on as long as you did. Plenty of other options

[@raiderusmc0331]

i really started to see the decline back around 2010. i worked for GW in 08 and back then it was all about catering to the niche market they knew we served and helping new hobbyists who joined in. after i left the company, i went back to the store a couple years later and the staff there had a whole different approach. i'm a die hard guard player with (at that time the end of 5th edition) 10k points of guard and they tried selling me things like new space marines and tau stuff. i was lugging around my entire army and a staffer started pushing me on stuff i had zero interest in. i knew then it was on its way down. seeing the new rules (both fantasy and 40k) showed me they were dumbing things down to reach a wider market. i lost interest in GW after that and havent bought a thing from them since. i have a collection of most of the codecies and the 4th and 5th ed rule books and i play with those when i can. gonna be getting into 3d printing to make more models and build more armies. i'll probably even start to try out new game rulesets! also, the paints became garbage. i honestly think gw switched pots to ones that dried out faster on purpose to force players and painters to buy more over priced paint. i switched to vellejo, army painter, and p3. alright, nerd rant over lol.

[@garbagecan755]

ToW really showed me just how big of a difference it is. I got completely sucked in for months converting Tomb Guard Chariots, Brettonian exiles, etc. It was so much fun hobby stuff that was ENCOURAGED by the game rules and kits rather than DISCOURAGED like it is in AoS and 40k. I play all 4 systems, I like all 4 systems, but Goddamnit if I don't wish they'd move 40k back to the more interesting style that engaged with the hobby and fed back into the game.

[@House-Atreides]

“Every change they make is designed to get you to buy new models.” - Northern Exile

[@SomeHumanIGuess]

You just listed all the reasons why I swapped to Horus Heresy

[@sleeplessknight99]

GW still winning. You're still giving them money and still keeping the game going. If you really wanted to hurt GW, you'd spend your money on a competitor's game and minis. Even 3d printing your Warhammer keeps their game going because you're still a cog in the machine (albeit slightly weaker) propping up another cog who will buy their stuff.

[@DissenterNet]

I lost my faith in Games Workshop in 1999. I was 18 and spent all my money on warhammer and then they came out with a bunch of new units that were all better than the old one faster than I could even paint then. Thats when we coined the phrase power creep and all us the self respecting gamers that were smart enough to see what was going on left.

[@johnmartin7705]

The golden age for 40K was third edition. Those were 6 year edition cycles. The problem was waiting for your codex. If you don’t play in organized events, then release cycles and FAQs mean nothing: just buy the rules, download the index lists and you can play for life! But people never do that, I wonder why🤔

[@vem32]

I should disclose that I'm not invested in 40k or AoS, but I was closely following Warhammer Community and I know my moment of "I can't believe this" was when they launched the "Thunderstrike Stormcast Eternals" and I remember the GW staffer hosting the live event was trying to sell how exciting it was that Stormcast were getting all these new models, and I literally thought "you have to be joking. Who at this point is excited by the prospect of more Stormcast..." I was aware that there was an analogue with the constant releases of Primaris Liuetenants in 40k but at least the space marine chapters are a thing. I think it reached a point where I needed them to stop pretending it was supposed to be exciting, and just give the business rationale for being so stormcast and ultramarine heavy.

[@Koush88]

I am surprised that with modern technology people just dont 3d print their own copies and just copy the rules and play for a much lower cost

[@leejamesburns]

I think it's so hard to take yourself out of the picture. Everyone has the view that "if even I, as a massive fan, am not feeling it any more, they're in trouble". They're not. You're being replaced by two other people who are just getting into it and are super hyped. I feel like churn of very dedicated customers is part of their model.

[@jarosawknas8947]

Only danger for GW is market crisis. Now, as was more than 10 years ago with board games we have influx of players, new projects gains a lot of support on kickstarter. That was time of CoolMiniOrNot , big boxes with great miniatures and graphics which, as I was told, were more important than actual gameplay. If 3D printers would posed a danger, than GW would have financial problems now, but they are more and more successful in financial terms. Only what can kill GW is selling it to something bigger. Few big mishaps, which will eventually come, and something like Amazon will cease its functioning. But, like with BattleTech or D&D, it will be low chance it will be end for Warhammer. Warhammer is something bigger than a game. GW can die but not a Warhammer.

[@nero_palmire]

Oh, Warhammer could absolutely die as physical miniature wargame. As a media franchise, it's unsinkable.

[@LordHonkInc]

I got into Warhammer through Dawn of War, and I have many cherished memories of building, painting, and playing. It hurts my soul how far things have fallen, and I just don't have fun with Games Workshop systems anymore. To quote Breaking Bad: "We had a good thing, you stupid son of a bitch! We had everything we needed and it ran like clockwork."

[@roberthultz9023]

I came to the same conclusion as you- but five or six years before you started playing.

[@tyger2891]

I'm with you, and I've got my 3d printer tweaked enough that they are indistinguishable from the official model after paint.

[@SouthernWolf]

100% agree with you on this. I haven't supported them since they ruined 75% of my stormcast army. I'm not getting 4th ed AoS and won't because of this.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Mass brutality was not on my schedule to be released for another 2 years but I was so enraged by the cancellation of my beasts of chaos army and half of my stormcast army that I pushed that to be the next project I released. Now I am converting my local gaming club to Mass brutality.

[@strik999]

Nailed it all man. I don't have a local hobby outlet, so I only get games in with my kids. With work schedules we only get maybe 2 games a month in. One 40k and one aos, top it off with that price creep. My kids can't even afford to build their armies anymore, well not at gw prices and pieces anyways.

[@Snozcumbers]

What people fail to realise is there's nothing stopping you from playing an older edition which is complete balanced and faq to the hill

[@nestadious]

I really hope they go to a free army rules route. The recent edition of Kill Team has been great so far, all rules for all the teams are available for free online. The way the pdf for the teams is also designed in a really nice way where you can easily cut and laminate them into cards. The only thing your missing is the tokens for a team, which you can really use anything in most cases, or cut out the token that is displayed on the pdf. Yes, teams are going to be rotated out through the season but that really only matters if your a tournament player playing at GW tournaments. They encourage other non-gw tournaments to use all team rules if they want, and have said they are going to update all the kill team rules as needed. If they actually do that remains to be seen, but giving the rules for free seems like a good gesture.

[@Lothrean]

I often disagree with your takes on stuff, but this time you are spot on! This is exactly what the problem is. It’s like Steve Jobs said: Over time a growing company loses everyone that is actually improving the product, and the only people remaining are sells people.

[@LetsTalkTabletop]

Hey, I guess this blind squirrel finally found a nut!

[@reverenddmo8944]

As someone old enough to have spent a chunk of my early teens playing 1st Edition 40K I can say with all my heart the biggest loss has been the game's soul. It was once scrappy, irreverent, filled with humour and dark comedy poking fun at the world we lived in back in the 80s, and fun little nods and jibes at pop culture, music, football, etc. You could tell the game was made by people having fun making the game to ay for themselves as much as us. And boy, was it fun. Now, the game is different. Sure, it's smooth, streamlined, balanced (usually), but the wit has gone for fear of offending or alienating someone why might throw some money on GW's altar. It's bland fast-food gaming perfect for streams and soundbites and raking in the cash over the original days of playing to have a laugh with your buddies. And the pricing of the models... oof. No kid can afford the hobby anymore, GW is just chasing whales like the worst elements in the software industry. The days of encouraging people to make their own models is long, long dead... the game is like the Emperor himself; 99% dead and soulless, being kept going by idiots maintaining a status quo for their own benefit. But hey, I still have those memories. And a 3d printer. I can still make and paint Orks my way. And I still have all those old rulebooks. This is still my hobby, and GW will not take it from me.

[@paytreonsuhks]

they just sold ip rights to amazon I'd say they lost everything

[@piotrwilk1926]

Yeah, i started getting into warhammer 40k two and a half of year ago, so just before 10th edition. I picked up starter set, start learning rules with my buddy, we were amazed. I started collecting space marines and wanted to get into necrons as well. And then 10th edition happened. Half of my space marines become ussless, almost everything i learned of the rules went out the window, and i watched the hype that was happening around Leviathan box. I was interested in picking up one, but i didnt. Because they made so few of them that it sell out in seconds. Simuntanously they raised up their prices, so discount on Leviathan was really only reasonable way to get me close again to normal sized army

[@NitroModelsAndComics]

I have stopped my purchases with the space vampire set. I currently have a moratorium on GW until they straighten out the rules and all the extra expenses that go along with new editions. As of now 5th Ed is it. I guess the business model of "Bleed em till the leave", isn't all that conducive to loyalty.

[@otahak]

I reached that point somewhere around 8th edition. Between a highly bloated and convoluted rules, and predatory business practices, I decided to just focus on the modeling part until earlier this year when I discovered OPR. Its rejuvenated my interest in "war gaming" and am even finally working through my backlog of models to get more OPR games in!

[@RMCbreezy]

What makes OPR so revitalizing?