What happened at the Tower of Joy? - livestream with Joe Magician

In Deep Geek - Insight and intelligent discussion on Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Westworld and more.
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Robert's Rebellion / Tower of Joy playlist - • Video
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Art credit:
Tower of Joy by Henning Ludvigsen
(All pictures from the Lord of the Rings films and HBO are used under fair use copyright laws. If any credits are missing or incorrect, please PM me for a credit)

[@omgjimmyboy]

Been in a funk since the season ended glad to see joe magician back with Robert !

[@MadeUpLikeADoll]

Same here. 😊

[@Axechucker]

I love me some Joe Magician cameos!

[@WhoIsCalli]

Great conversation. Absolutely fascinated by the Tower of Joy

[@liverdave1977]

Anything that touches on the TOJ is a conversation I’m interested in!! Great content as always

[@davidrios1270]

I suddenly love Joe Magician. Thanks, Robert!

[@omgjimmyboy]

Damn joe dropping knowledge how did I not put that together about wyla being at the tower

[@annaarwen4345]

Great chat, sorry I missed it going live. Robert Id love to hear your musings on His Dark Materials. I enjoyed the books and love the new tv adaption. Girls Gone Cannon are doing really great coverage of it and would love to hear more content from my fav creators x

[@MsZeeZed]

The Expanse began as a role playing game, between several people, that went on for a year or so I believe & was then novelised by the DM & a player. Like all “unique” D&D scenarios, fantasy literature is often a base outline. I’ve played a D&D scenario based on Tim Powers’ On Stranger Tides, which as you now might realise was the novel that inspired the Pirates of the Caribbean films, with the mixture of muskets, zombies & magic.

[@JoeMagician]

That's really interesting, didn't know that. Thank you! Just getting into the series.

[@JoeMagician]

1:38:41 watch Robert's eyebrow go up

[@TobeWilsonNetwork]

He’s smashing the mfing “Press incase of tinfoil emergency” button

[@sunshinesilverarrow5292]

Thank you guys, a good one! 🌞

[@AndrewK23777]

Great stream as always , made a lot of sense to expand here after Robert's recent ToJ vid from the other day and we were treated to some great insights and perspectives in this one. Certainly the ToJ is such an influential event that has long reaching ramifications to the current narrative. And looking back on it, I do feel for Ned , having to endure such traumatic events pretty much one after the other for an extended duration in this time period in his younger days. But with the ToJ in particular , definitely a lot of elements that do not add up for me , in particular with Arthur Dayne who outnumbered or not i do not think Ned / Ned & Howland could have taken him in any sort of fair proper fight (although the Crannogmen are a rather tricky sort, especially if he withdrew himself a bit during the combat). Just seems there is a lot more that went on in terms of the tentative tale we have been fed with this one , i am also curious to know exactly how the tower was brought down (as there clearly are a few options for that) and although possible I am not sure Ned would have been capable of the possible blood bath of killing that possibly went down with the kingsguard , any attendants / servants / just anyone in and around the tower etc , in order to ensure Jon's secret remains so. And on top of the actual combat at the ToJ which probably went down much differently than most assume atm , if it indeed went down anything like the broad strokes most think they know then no way would the Daynes would have admired Ned or name their heir after him. And the same could be said of the whole Ashara situation / suicide story (Ashara who was mentioned during this stream), which i also do not buy that story at all ; as also would the Daynes hold Ned in high esteem and name their heir after Ned if he impregnated Ashara and eventually set the conditions that resulted in her taking her own life , after killing their son / Ashara's brother along the way ? don't think so. Ntm , the Reeds' mother being named Jyana just too coincidental , Jojen and Meera so knowledgeable with the Harrenhal story , Barristan (a prominent character then and now who is/was certainly in the know) who loved Ashara from afar also held Ned in high regard and he was a prominent character of the time which also sheds further doubt here. Surely the events went down differently than a lot of readers/fans assume and there is much more than meets the eye with general ambiguity with many details regarding the ToJ . I hope GRRM will provide more clarity with many of the specifics regarding the ToJ in general , although it is possible he will not go super in depth there as GRRM does like to leave many elements of ambiguity in the narrative to drive future discourse / debate and although it may irk some of the fandom it is possible to adequately wrap up the narrative without many reveals in terms of the specifics pertaining to the ToJ.

[@curtiswfranks]

Small point that was not emphasized enough: They did not stop at the ToJ just so that Lyanna could give birth - it was not an accident. They had been there for some time because Ned knew where to look and then found Lyanna just as or just after she birthed Jon (almost-canonically). In fact, Lyanna could have been there for most or all of the duration of the Rebellion.

[@tashacrawford770]

I went back and read Neds POV, he never recalled the fighting. He goes over what was said, then Lyanna yelling for him. He never says anything on the fight. I just find it so strange.

[@ClintSprayberry]

YAAASSS!! Truly two of my favorites!!! Looking forward to listening to the entirety of this a few times over!!!

[@reneebarger5194]

So nice to see Matt with you Robert! My tin foil tingling, I believe we have Blood Raven potential at the ToJ. Rhaegar had been into full prophetic mode, perhaps having dreams influenced by the 3-eyed Crow. He may have pulled his friends into the quest as well. Howland was a "magic" practitioner and could also been under influence of 3-Eyed Crow. We don't really know WHO died except Lyanna. Ned's memory is tainted (possibly by Howland) and we don't know who was in his entourage to Starfall.

[@The_Red_Woman]

Please do videos on His Dark Materials! I am loving the show and starting the books.

[@AzorAhaiReborn]

i love roberts insistence to ashara being alive

[@MsZeeZed]

I doubt Rhaegar was into keeping Wildfire anywhere he stayed given the Fire at Summerhall being his traumatic birthplace.

[@LoneWolfOfHouseStark1989]

First off, love your channel, fairly new subscriber so working my way through your videos. I get the impression that House Dayne has the same moral compass as House Stark, Arthur Dayne can’t stand down as he promised his prince and I imagine the people that were there to care for Lyanna see honour in Ned and agreed to keep what they saw to themselves. Ned returning the sword probably helped with the whole situation, proved he was a man of honour.

[@JoniukasVader]

In Deep!

[@Luminousreign]

I still think that the most Ned thing to do at the tower of joy given the situation is to make the kings guard take the black. Plenty of theories about this already but it is a very rational thing to believe.

[@Luminousreign]

Also why house dayne isnt angry. Ned didnt actually kill Arthur, and was just returning their sword and wet nurse.

[@carlrood4457]

Given they were travelling great distances, they probably would have had pack horses with supplies as well. They would have been even more necessary if they were travelling particularly fast. Pushing horses to hard will kill them.

[@HighLordSythen]

30:50 Made me laugh out loud. :)

[@stuartarms]

Hi, great video. I have a theory about the sword dawn. I think Ned took the sword from house Dayne as an offering of their loyalty/silence. (The sword is a stand in for a ward from the house) I think Ned will have buried the sword in lyana tomb which is what Jon will find and pull the sword from the stone (like King Arthur) and it’s Arthur dayne sword. A little more tinfoil, I saw a theory that mance is Arthur dayne... if this turned out to be true that could be the reason he is trying to get into the crypts of winterfell. He wants his sword back to defend Jon.

[@Luminousreign]

It is part of the Uthor Pendragon story that he gets in trouble for having Arthur before proving he married Arthur’s mom. There is no letter from Lyanna. What you are missing is that a single girl going missing, even if she was taken, is really a minor deal. The north won’t even let Robb trade Jaimie for Sansa and Arya.

[@Luminousreign]

Also it really shouldn’t be underplayed that Robert entered the war purely to kill Rhaegar. All he does the entire war is chase Rhaegar down. It is Ned and Jon Arryn that actually command the rebel forces.

[@potatopatty7460]

Expanse is awesomeness

[@catking1059]

They don’t have to be “bloodied” stones, he could have meant “god damned” stones

[@danielbasich2729]

Is it possible the tower never existed and was a cover up so nobody could dig up the supposed buried bodies?

[@SHARKVADERS]

IDG!!!

[@rchr5785]

❤

[@tk423b]

Reed had a dragon. You heard it here first.

[@ignitetheinferno1858]

Do we actually know that Benjen knew about Lyanna eloping and not kidnapped? Or is this more of an assumption?

[@dreamway9]

I wonder if the Tower itself isn't made up, and never existed. They could have been at Starfall the whole time. No one else knows where it was? Not even some old people from the marches? Really?

[@ryanlynch2853]

Have you considered the fact there were no bodies because none of them died? only 2 rode away from Starfall the rest stayed to bind the Danes to the north and the Starks? maybe?

[@amberantk1]

Arys supplied the wildfire.

[@gammondorf6201]

I don't think it has ever been firmly established that the Tower of Joy is anything other than a figment of Ned's fever dream. That is to say the tower physically exists but does it play the key role role that the timeline of events dictates? I don't believe so. I think Martin is setting us up for a twist. I think the Raeghar and Lyanna were in fact hiding in Winterfell and The Tower of Joy was probably the Broken Tower. They left and doubled back (echoing what Bran and co did to trick the Ironborn) and were hiding in the Crypts initially as a kind of retread of the Bael the Bard legend. Why did they move to the tower? Well I'm assuming that living a dank, cold crypt is not an ideal environment for an expecting mother so they most likely moved Lyanna up there at the last moment when her health was deteriorating and they hoped that some sunlight and fresh air might do the trick... it didn't.

[@adammccaw]

Did you see this on Order of the Greenhand’s channel? Not a criticism, just wondering.

[@gammondorf6201]

@@adammccaw Possibly. I do follow their stuff.

[@adammccaw]

GammonDorf yah I buy into this idea/theory as well. It also helps explain Benjen strangely being at the wall, why Lyanna had a winter rose as they only grow in Winterfell’s gardens and why Catelyn states that Jon was already at Winterfell when her and Luwin arrived. I wonder if we’ll get to see the Tower of Joy in present day through the Areo Hotah chapters in Winds. Starfall isn’t that close to it but is in that general direction.

[@gammondorf6201]

@@adammccaw I agree - But it's starts to get really a messy thing when you start adding Starfall into the mix. I do think some baby switch happened at some point but I read that the proposed 5 year gap that was dropped in later books destroys the Ned Dayne connection but I do think there is a greater chance that Wildling Princess Val might be in fact Jon's Twin: Lannister twins and Twincest in the Broken Tower echoing the twins that were born there years earlier.

[@adammccaw]

GammonDorf I personally believe in the idea that R + L = A and N+ A = J, so I think Aegon was probably born at Winterfell, but I do believe that Jon and Val could be Twins. The changing of her eyes based on her mood just like Ned and her strong connection with ghost seem to fit. Therefore giving Jon access to Dawn as AA and making Aegon a bastard instead of a Blackfyre. Which is why Varys is passing him off as the Aegon from the sack of King’s Landing. Either way I agree that a baby or babies were born at Winterfell.

[@sleekoduck]

Do you think that Meera Reed could be the Sword of the Morning? 😏😏

[@dawnbartle123]

I have a theory. ... Maybe the night king awoke because of the marriage of Rhaeghar and Leanna. ... Was this on the gods eye? Fire and ice

[@chippersonsencyclopediaemp1318]

😘

[@tashacrawford770]

I think there was a letter of her telling Of her leaving to go with Ryaegar because she wanted to be with him. I think Littlefinger just got the letter fist. His hate of the starks and wanting revenge cause him to destroy the letter.

[@cbrashsorensen]

When we STILL believed that Martin might complete the book series, it MATTERED what happened at the Tower of Joy. NOW it does not. Martin has told his fans to "shove it up..." He has joined the American oligarchy where all that matters is the green-back.

[@iSlack01]

M8nute 48

[@iSlack01]

*can't even imagine"

[@thorstonmanderlay5010]

Benioff wrote Troy? Now that explains things for me, like how come the writing on GoT went down the drain so massively from season 5 onwards, ever since the show chose to sideline, if not ignore completely, the source material (one should remember that no-one forced Benioff & Weiss to bulldoze their way through books 4 & 5 in 10 episodes, cutting a good 70% of it and changing much of the rest, most importantly the Dorne story line). I loved the story of the trojan war ever since I was a kid. When the film came out I went to watch it immediately. My disappointment couldn't have been greater. Absolutely no character development, characters being completely one dimensional & uninteresting (only some actors, like Peter O'Toole and Rose Byrne, managed to rise above the material by their sheer talent), drastic changes to the source material. For example, the length of the war. According to Homer & other antique sources the Trojan war lasted for 10 years. In the film it lasted about 4 days! That's the time span covered by the action in the Illiad, but the action of Homer's epic only depicts 4 days towards the end of the war with everything else being flashbacks & foreshadowing). And, most fatal flaw of them all, I (and judging by many reviews and reactions from people I know) was bored to tears throughout most of the running time, some good fight sequences notwithstanding. The same kind of boredom I experienced with most of the episodes of GoT from season 5 onwards. D&D were by and large good as writers while they were actually adapting the books, staying close to their source material (an early exception, for me, was Dani's changed story line in season 2). Once they decided they were good enough to do the rest of the show on their own, ignoring as I said, most of books 4&5 before venturing into the unknown beyond, their shortcomings as writers became painfully obvious.

[@leoferwer1813]

Idk if homer wrote the truth about the war, but I remember menelaus surviving it, and in the movie he is the first to die... Benioff confirmed (?)

[@georgetidwell446]

N+A=J

[@annawisdomsdottir4947]

The "Tower of Joy" and what seemingly occurred there is and was irrelevant to the hash of a story--incomplete and not to be completed. Having discussions is chasing our tails.

[@rchr5785]

❤