What Happened to Jordan Peterson? Ken Wilber

In this conversation with Rebel Wisdom's David Fuller, Ken Wilber reflects on the turbulent dynamics of the last few years, and particularly the trajectory of the figures in what was called the Intellectual Dark Web (IDW) including Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin.
This is released shortly after a recent Substack piece by David Fuller called 'What Happened to Jordan Peterson?': rebelwisdom.substack.com/p/wh...
Ken Wilber is the creator of Integral theory, it attempts to place a wide diversity of theories and models into one single framework. The basis is a "spectrum of consciousness," from archaic consciousness to ultimate spirit, presented as a developmental model.
Very grateful to Dan Hammond for the audio mix.
This is a follow up to conversations we recorded back in 2019, which were published as:
Ken Wilber: 'Jordan Peterson and the evolution of thought': • Ken Wilber: 'Jordan Pe...
Ken Wilber: The Intellectual Dark Web, an Integral Conversation? • Ken Wilber: The Intell...

[@alextrusk1713]

I want Ken Wilber and Jordan Peterson to sit down in the same room NOW!!!

[@michaelnice93]

Nah it would be aweful, worse than Jordan and Sam Harris.

[@guycomments]

He needs to sit back down with Vervaeke, and he'd do well to listen more next time

[@grazynakunc390]

🙏❤️‍🔥

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@michaelnice93 - Yes, perhaps Ken would play the coward like Sam did, but it would be good to give it a try.

[@deborahmarinelli9277]

@@michaelnice93 sorry just our of pure curiosity: why was JP and Harris awful?

[@yourbrain8700]

That's got to be the most convoluted way of not admitting you have male pattern baldness I have ever heard.

[@3buzzy]

The opening sequence here seems dishonest to me. The Peterson twitter ban video is Jordan pissed off and spewing vitriol, this much is true. But Jordan angry is not all we are seeing of him these days. The vast majority of new videos I have seen from Peterson over the last several months are the thoughtful Peterson analytical as ever and lacking the venom displayed here.

[@Theactivepsychos]

He’s also been as emotional as everyone he attacks.

[@mikearchibald744]

@@Theactivepsychos People are human, thats the problem with 'internet gurus' and the characters the web creates. Jordan Peterson is a psychology professor of middling repute in a field not exactly known for stellar accomplishments. The internet and media largely created 'the personality'. And the guy was institutionalized and got addicted to pain medication. But he's been pretty public about it and so people who have similar isssues get a lot of help from it. Its when he gets political that is the problem, like the other week saying things along the lines of 'this kind of woman is a danger to society', thats from HIS channel so isn't a mistaken title, as many other channels who take his stuff will do. There most certainly is not ANY kind of woman right now who is the 'danger to society'. Thats just gibberish, but again unfortunately you have people 'looking for answers' and seeing shit like that and THAT is more of a threat I'd say. But the guy was like that from day one. He quit or lost his job because he was at a college that insisted on non gendered pronouns from all professors, which is still fairly unusual, but when you leave a good paying job because you won't put 'they' on a paper, lets not pretty you don't have a little belligerence in you.

[@alwaysovercomingbear4809]

@@mikearchibald744 Our Canadian government made it AGAINST the law, to misgender anyone. THAT is why he was against it. It is government compelled speech! We're screwed in Canada...🥴

[@Theactivepsychos]

@@mikearchibald744 it’s funny that we are all different but those that are more different to him (or his ideal) are worthy of attack, ridicule or spite. He says in rant that the Hippocratic oath first does no harm (it doesn’t actually say that) but then he, a clinical psychologist, goes on to attack a vulnerable trans man. It’s absurd the amount of projection and self castigation he does without awareness.

[@Theactivepsychos]

@@mikearchibald744 have you seen the talk he did with Matt Dillahunty? It’s the exposure of a madman.

[@mr.h3134]

Firstly, I don’t know how Ken Wilber can continue calling Jordan Peterson as alt-right, when Jordan Peterson has continually and very thoroughly/successfully countered that claim. He has an integrated sense of traditional and conservative values while still remaining mostly a classical liberal. I also disagree that everyone who moves politically from left to right is necessarily regressing. When I listen to Thomas Sowell talk about how he went from being a Communist to holding more conservative perspective as he learned more, I hear development not regression. There are many others who started off liberal and became conservative. Perhaps they are maturing/developing, not regressing. David Horowitz, David Mamet also come to mind.

[@rajo741]

He’s never successfully refuted that claim. If you believe that, you’re an adolescent

[@kvidobenak]

He didn't call Jordan Peterson Alt Right. He said the left often identifies him as Alt Right. That's a huge difference, lol. Ken even says at 27:15 that "It was a bit unfair" that the left did this.

[@rajo741]

And Ken Wilbur is wrong about the “left” calling Peterson as alt right. Over the last 5 years Peterson has actively sought out the alt right to bolster his base of support and his income. I’m not going to split hairs over labels when it comes to this steaming turd of a human being. He continues to show himself for what he is…a grifter who knows much less than he thinks he does and appeals to boys who don’t know if they’re coming or going. What a great legacy

[@arthurrosa9403]

JP just literally joined alt-right propaganda platform, that is openly that, for that and only that.

[@schmiggidy]

@@rajo741 What is it about Peterson that so irks you?

[@ImNotHereEither]

What I find fascinating is the reverse engineering that many undertake using intellectual and scientific rationalisations to justify a ubiquitous, tribal, emotionally driven cultural position. The overarching narrative and context is one of conflict as opposed to a collective journey towards understanding. Post-modernism describes an opaque complexity of meaning and with the removal of guiding meta-narratives, from which we erect scaffolding to support our fragile connection to a shared reality, our ability to make sense of our world becomes much harder. The emphasis being on the individual, rather than power structures and institutions to provide meaning. And it’s fragile in the sense that the individual is limited in their knowledge and experience with regard to that complexity and so trust in shared information becomes crucial. The problem is without agreed direction on our development, progress, in the classic sense of moving towards Utopian ideals, essentially becomes meaningless as well. What I’m seeing is a linguistic maelstrom of misdirected interpretation, a folding and bending of reality that reflects our emotional or spiritual experience. This gets conflated with ideology, politics and culture because this emotional confusion is being exploited by the myriad, fractured forces at play. We’re clearly missing something, and it’s tangible in the way our communities and values and shared human experience is being disrupted, but my question would be is “culture” as we see it today, really providing us with what we as human beings need? I don’t see “culture wars”. I see a fractilasition of ideas and meaning. In that the deeper you look, patterns are reflected throughout, but the overall structure is fundamentally chaotic. Those patterns correlate to our instinctual need for connection, spiritual nourishment, community and collective organisation, so prevalent in our primate make up, but the current culture, rather than bringing us closer to these things, acts as a cypher, moving us instead, further and further away from what we really desire.

[@brokenpremise]

Interesting points you make. Maybe Culture as such is the enemy of real insight, especially in the battlefield. Of the present, where we cling to our personalized maps of reality, as egos are wont to do. Group guru is a still valid approach to the epistemic wasteland, though it will always be limited by an inevitable lack of broad wavelengths. And so we proceed, mostly blind, but with one eye half open

[@TheBiancap]

So beautifully put

[@TheSatchmo93]

Most people externalize their difficulty in life. It's comforting to think we would be happy and moral, if it weren't for other people. But the battle is always within the self. Imagine these poor fellows too afraid to look the enemy in face, simply because it is their own face, and they can't confront how they have fooled themselves. Compassion is the key, without it you cannot be humane, you can't be good. The reason Yeshua Nazarene said the commandment to live your neighbor had changed, and was now to love thy enemy, is the realization of divinity found in forgiving the self, and therefore everyone else, and this is a necessity for healing and growth, we forgive ourselves our own mistakes when you forgive others their quite similar mistakes.you don't accept the wrong doing, you rescue the person, from within the dysfunction, this seperate yourself from wrongdoing also. This is integral to rational understanding of human interaction. Humans make mistakes, the sin is in rationalizing and justifying wrong doing. That's when you soil the purity of your soul. If wrongdoing is necessary, you must do it, but you must acknowledge and repudiate that evil, not aggrandize it and yourself as good for it. It's difficult, but we get better as a species everyday, we had nowhere to go but up, lol may all suffering be reduced. May all waring factions learn the truth of their familial obligations and the immense assets of having a family of 8 billion people. Imagine the wonder if that family if it were to show it's love. That taste in your mouth is the product of what we've been doing, that's the flavor of hate and lies, serving greed, lust, and the love of power.

[@marcus8710]

Great posts. I feel like I'm "there": fully willing to forgive even the worst, if they were to wake up to where I feel I am, willing to set aside certainty for love and acceptance of the Persons while we circumscribe behavior differently. I work with the public and have "seen the shit", and yet I'm willing to play part of the family despite the willful evil. But how do we live beside rabid animals trying to starve us?

[@Laocoon283]

Whew baby talk about word salad lol. This shit reads like what a college student thinks his paper should sound like to be considered inteligent writing.

[@jz5005]

You guys should come live in Canada for a while. It may help you understand the parallels he sees between prior communist / totalitarian/ dictatorships of history and the direction Trudeau is going. He realizes we need active intervention to this and related divisive trends in the U.S. This may be part of the reason for his escalating tone.

[@docsavagemanofbronze6362]

LOL

[@crackboi6003]

@@docsavagemanofbronze6362 rofl

[@geoc1005]

Good point. 👍 There's a covert war going on that most people are not aware of due to censorship, propaganda, and cognitive dissonance.

[@ecologicmedia]

Yikes

[@DigitalGnosis]

Or maybe he is just wrong…

[@caelidhg6261]

I am Liberal. Yet there are many non LEFT thinkers and teachers that I have listened to...that I honestly still respect. BUT I have noticed over the past few years that they have gotten more angry and their tone has shifted... but I have noticed that on the Left as well.. but I have always been liberal and care about progressive ideas and freedom.. It is frustrating and often I have to take a step back. I feel like the whole world is going through a mid life crisis or something.

[@philosopher2king]

I totally agree. JP is not just an extremely brilliant philosopher and clinician, he’s a genuinely good man. He’s also the most misquoted and purposely misinterpreted public intellectual out there. My girlfriend had a very low opinion of him based on everything she heard from the scuttlebutt on the woke left, until I had her read and listen to some of his stuff. After she read 12 Rules, she said “I can’t believe all these people are downright lying about him!“ My guess is that pressure has gotten to him to the point that it has made him bitter and tired. Hell, he regularly gets called a “Nazi“, when his passion is teaching people how to avoid that. I hope that fame proves to be a good thing for him in the final tally, because a generation of people are better off because of him.

[@johnyoung6680]

I feel the same way! I'm an artist that leans more Libertarian/independent, so I can easily empathize with the Left and the ideals they are 'suppose' to hold...given how "illiberal' some of the left has become. There is some legitimate anger coming from the left (about various social issues), but now it's seems like I am having a hard-time discerning between straight-up projection and anger. I think this anger from the left has caused any public intellectuals (not specifically on the left) to fight fire with fire. Plus there is something to your global 'crisis' point, and that's perhaps part of the ugly recipe. Cheers!

[@boneheaded9751]

After reading the full history of progressivism...and paying attention to current progressives... I've come to the conclusion you can't be a progressive and be pro freedom. I suggest reading Illiberal Reformers for a FULL history of progressivism, which was written by a historian from Princeton. I also highly recommend researching the Fabian Society. Its coat of arms alone should tell you all you need to know. Fabianism is Europe's version of progressivism. Huxley's Brave New World is Fabianism's literal vision of a "utopian" future. Don't believe me, look at who was a member back in the day. They even eat insects in the novel. Sound familiar? And that's just the the start of the rabbit hole. Look up Walter Duranty...just one of the Western journos of the 1930s who covered for Stalin while he was forcefully starving millions of Ukranians. It's called the Holodomor. Progressivism is just another form of socialism. It always picks winners and losers.

[@oldrusty6527]

Amen to all that

[@AnthonyFransella]

This honestly doesn't reflect my experience or understanding of the last 5 years at all. Anyone that expected JP not to take a stand for his beliefs, or thought he was a foggy intellectual without any interest in actually materially impacting the world, didn't watch any of his University lectures on the Gulags or Nazis, or noticed his stand on C16. If you want to sit around meditating I'm all for it, but don't complain about folks trying to fight for what they believe to be right as though they are small minded.

[@Rnankn]

He’s using the public norms of tolerance and openness, to be intolerant and attack openness. At a point it becomes not only hypocritical, but indefensible and morally wrong. And critically, it isn’t his personal journey, he is using public platforms to promote intolerance. And it is not just the toleration of difference, but undermining science and policy, I would say in bad faith. There is an anger and vitriol, which is hard to see as anything but a direct attack. I think he’s gone too far, along with others who are becoming enemies of the society in which they live.

[@v2ike6udik]

@@Rnankn I have removed all psychopaths and narcs from my life. So i forgot to ask - how does it feel to be mentally sick, deranged and lost in its on mind, in constant time loop? Could you please answer the question.

[@deborahmarinelli9277]

@@Rnankn we shouldn’t be so open minded that our brains falls off.

[@ruthanne6729]

Dr. Peterson said about Bill C-16, “I meant NO more than they meant YES.” A man like that doesn’t back down, and we don’t want him to. It’s because good people did back down that this world ended up with the Holocaust, for God’s sake.

[@Gawillamon]

@@Rnankn Undermining science?? Hypocritical??? Ohhh the irony.... 😂

[@paulineliste4545]

I am suggesting that JP has the uncanny ability to sift through a tremendous amount of simplistic baffle gab and actually speak truth. Ken Wilber has the egotistical behavior that can only define what is by what isn’t in other words white is that which isn’t black. If these two people would like to dissect JP I would suggest they might interview him …. As to what his emotional state is ,, it is human, he expresses anger, disappointment, dismay, tears , humbleness, humility , strength and love. Not too often we witness a real human exposing himself in this way publicly.

[@tonikeltz3751]

Yes, that is the definition of abundant life, or one living life abundantly, in my opinion.

[@fightington]

You don't get it

[@marc-andreboutin3449]

He refused the interview. There's an article on this subject with a whole lot more details and explanations if you're interested. Also, you might want to rewatch the beginning of the video where we hear Peterson's own view about these changes when they started to happen in 2018. It might be less obvious from the videos, but if you go read his twitter feed you can definitely see he has been highly unstable. He kept calling twitter toxic, while having a toxic attitude himself. Kept announcing he would quit posting, to just start over right away. Had his team change his password so he can't get on, to just want it back real quick. His tweets were inflammatory and engineered being misunderstood to then play the victim. I am pretty sure he willingly wanted and aimed at being "locked unless he discusses or removes his obviously hateful tweet". Sure pride was a biblical sin, but there's a pride month as a counter balance to milleniums of shaming those who are different than the majority, you can decide which is actually worse. Now, he's even being prideful about being a greedy capitalist openly, when that's just another sin, which he ignores entirely. He is being increasingly hypocritical and in direct contradiction to his own past teachings. I think it is obvious to quite many people that he is deeply unwell and is not acting as his normal self. He is stuck in a fight, in which he is in the process of losing his own soul. The regression he is experiencing is very obvious also when you see his open desire for society to also regress back to traditional religious values. We are not talking about Christian religious values, because every single value of the new testament is more easily associated with the left. No, he desires a return to abrahamic values, which is highly nonsensical. I think his illenesses, the near death of his wife, quitting his job as a teacher and clinical psychologist has plunged him into a dark night of the soul. I really hope he gets better, but for that he will need to regain his past sincerity. The one for which he kept being repeatedly told that he changed so many people's lives for the better.

[@James1m2n3]

Great comment. I’d also say that JP, as an individual is communicating with individuals - not with various different audience demographics - like, it seems, David Fuller and Ken Wilbur are arguing here. Perhaps the integral lens itself, is at least conditioned by collectivist ideology or maybe even outright collectivist itself and that’s why this and the article David wrote miss the mark so badly.

[@eddyf4426]

@@marc-andreboutin3449 Very fairly said and I share the same concerns. His more aggressive or regressive tone will win partisan favor but will turn off endearing himself to his opponents. I still am a fan but also hope he course corrects.

[@annmcneal5153]

At around minute 55 Ken starts speaking about his legacy. He articulates his ideas with so much compassion and inclusiveness. Brilliant.

[@Enhancedlies]

the thing is, i think the world has changed immensely since 2018, so to expect Peterson to have the same attitude would be unfair. Things are getting heated, i agree. However i think in many, many cases he is trying to be truthful. And when you see lie after lie after disgusting lie, i think it's perfectly right to be irritated. Yes he has become more angry, but the world has become a more dangerous and angry place itself.But i am still figuring out my exact stance i want to take. But i am looking forward to reading your Substack, often opening my eyes to things i would otherwise miss.

[@arthurrosa9403]

I believe he just gave up making a difference, and is only for profit now.

[@DR-nh6oo]

I don’t think it has changed so much, and not unexpectedly, only some have been slower than others to come to understand the nature of our times.

[@DR-nh6oo]

Arthur Rosa Attention and denial is his motivation as I see it.

[@crackboi6003]

reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV" It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer. and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.." she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more. Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy

[@microfarming8583]

I wish Ken could cover the issue of WEF and the great reset agenda and the weaponisation of Green by billionaire class and big corporations to usher in authoritarianism seen in Melboune Australia, Canada, NY, California, New Zealand etc. If we are taking a fully integral approach surely these issues are critical as we seem to be hurtling towards a Chinese style system under the guise of green. If that happens then Red will rule just as it does in China. Thank you gentlemen for this fantastic conversation, I feel much better for having watched this. 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾

[@eirikloc]

What's difficult for me to understand is what the mythos or grand narrative of an integral stage might be? I think that John Vervaeke would say that appreciating the ecosystems of the major traditional religions may be part of keeping spirituality healthy, and that new spiritualities would also need to evolve equivalent ecosystems and narratives. Wilbur admits that the integral stage hasn't achieved a critical mass of participants but neither, as far as I'm aware, does it seem to offer a non-abstract mythos that can be attractive and adaptive to all "levels" of the population, and to all the many sub-communities within the West. For Integral to really be practicable at scale, I think it would have to be operating with all of Vervaeke's 4Ps, along with a strong and compelling narrative (that's where traditional religions, which have survived many different types of government and culture, still have an advantage). Also, I believe that Peterson is still trying to push towards integrative, less divisive, possibilities, but he is hot about how tyrannical many of the green stage proponents have been for so long. I am not sure what the proper use of anger for Peterson should be, but I understand why he is angry. The anger from the extreme left--which has been on display for a long time and which is unfairly reactive to Peterson-- has finally warn thin his patience. That makes him human and maybe even homeopathic for others who are also warn-out and beaten-down by the farthest of the far left, who seem to hold much of social media's main stage. Maybe an edgy rhetorical season is right in the greater scheme of things? Not sure. I am personally too high in agreeableness to be a fair judge (i.e. I would not do what he is doing, though I can respect it). My understanding of the term "alt right" leads me to believe that it is the wrong label to apply to Peterson. He still espouses a classical liberal politics, from everything I have seen and heard, albeit with a bit of venom of late. With regard to the classical liberal ideal, I don't think we can go back to the almost "covenantal" basis (and appeal) of the American experiment, or enlightenment rationalism more broadly. It shouldn't be discarded wholesale, either. Likewise, it seems to me that we would do well to recover some dimensions of the Great Tradition religious vitality that "funded" the West, especially if that can include and embody not just the kataphodic elements but also the apophodic (affording both timeless mythical grounding, along with openness to further evolutions). I can't see any way around _some_ reclamation of the nobility of the West's Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman mythos, unless we are resigned to revolution. I can imagine a healthy Western reinvigoration (and evolution) also including Islamic and other Eastern voices and traditions, especially if people like Vervaeke and McGuilchrist can serve as role models for how to do that. It's interesting to me that Peterson recently posted challenges to both Christian churches and to his Islamic followers. He seems even-handed with his rhetorical assertiveness, in that regard. I appreciate Wilbur's perspective, I'm just not sure how it becomes storied and truly integrative. I'm probably neglecting some key points, but that's what comes to mind after watching several interviews.

[@kalik148]

Maybe we all just need to practice patience and realize that the 20 to 50 years that Ken Wilber believes we have to wait is a reasonable amount of time before society arrives at a tipping point for the integral stage. I believe we are not only living through culture wars but also class wars in order to work through and adapt to AI/ technological disruption. It takes a while to figure out one's identity and place in the world when there are so many to choose from, while at the same time losing all the traditional choices because AI is replacing them :)

[@dirtypure2023]

Astute and appropriate. The video's analysis seemed blind (willfully or other) to so much of what is currently going on in the world, which but any human standard REQUIRES pushback.

[@matfar100]

Eirik I resonate with your comments. I am looking for the symbols that will draw people to the integral stage. Something similar to how Gaia and earth rise over the moon were powerful symbols for green.

[@elektrotehnik94]

This.

[@GmanSJ]

@@dirtypure2023 Agreed! It’s easy to pathologize anger as regressive, but in the face of so much “mean-green “woke authoritarianism, it seems fitting. Not sure what a more integral response would be. A bland, aloof, disengaged lecture on the “transcend and include” nature of evolution? Sometimes you have to pick a side.

[@howlinthewilderness]

I wrote a post about JP a couple months ago from the perspective of archetypal psychology. Basic analysis is: highly developed magician, with shadow warrior and lover aspects. When the shadow warrior is constellated a man will see enemies everywhere. He doesn’t feel purposeful without a battle to fight. Without heathy lover energy, he’ll overwork himself to the point of destroying his body and eventually family and career. Developing the lover (feminine) will help balance out his king and warrior aspects by putting more focus on embodiment, sensuality, compassion and joy.

[@jordanthornton]

Interesting! Enjoyed reading this! Does however appear that JP’s King function is well developed at this stage - he has built & nourished his empire and now he’s defending it - particularly developed king qualities in his prolific sharing and ability to bestow ‘blessings’ via the years of teachings & guidance. (Assuming you’re working with Moore & Gillette’s understanding of KWML)

[@howlinthewilderness]

@@jordanthornton I agree...he displays some good King qualities! Moore gives the stages of King development as: 1. Mere Power 2. Ordering & Provision 3. Centering & Calmness 4. Inclusive Caring 5. Blessing We can see how JP could use some work on centering & calmness and inclusive caring. Developing the warrior and lover aspects would help cultivate these qualities of the King archetype.

[@jordanthornton]

@@howlinthewilderness I see what you’re saying - thanks for taking the time to bring the relevant structure forward, especially in a KZbin comment!

[@howlinthewilderness]

@@jordanthornton Glad to exchange these ideas with you amigo.

[@WakingUpToday213]

Thanks for the reminder of how useful archetypal psychology, and particularly King, Warrior, Magician, Lover as diagnostic tools, not just as personal therapeutic modalities. Those four have an admirable simplicity to them! Good work you're doing.

[@sstarjoyy]

I was introduced to Ken Wilber through Rebel Wisdom and found Wilber's offerings online to be on the scam side of things after purchasing, despite the raw scope of his ideas. I also found it incredibly hard to take him seriously in this interview. Peterson is a man of many truths - this comment isn't about JP. I think this channel has become a little too concerned with not being associated with any one movement, which seems like a rational way of remaining "neutral/ever-learning" but... it's falling a little flat.

[@willfranke]

I think his books are still worth reading. I haven't looked at the online stuff (though I admit he probably sells his stuff hard to make a living). The books are good though. At least, A Brief History of Everything completely changed my life about 12 years ago.

[@roushanam]

Well, it's also closing down. And Fuller is trying to get closure on Peterson for his own sake because the channel was largely inspired by him and Fuller thinks the time for rebelling is over. He wants to produce films for Channel 4. And Allie wants to devote himself to his hallucinogens.

[@TheRealSamPreece]

In other words, these people are sell-outs.

[@sstarjoyy]

@@roushanam thanks for info!

[@microfarming8583]

@@roushanam The time for rebellion is over just as the Great Reset kicks into gear? I haven't seen anything worth watching on channel 4 for years.

[@MandrakeDCR]

I'm pretty sick of people trying to imply that Jordan has changed or regressed to be honest. He's always had a controlled temper, admitted as such, talks about the detriments and benefits of such, and then the necessity of when to bring it forth. He warned, warned, warned some more; was polite, gentle, firm, and even terse and let his temper get the best of him every once in a while. Apologized for it, but explained why it was so important why we must listen to each other and stop going down the road we are going. Society did not listen. Yet now, when he raises his voice to snap people to attention and slap them in the face a bit to get them to listen - he's somehow changed. All you have to do is watch some of his recent interviews with Chris and such. He's still the calm, collected, thoughtful, and deeply insightful person he has always been. However, he has openly stated it is time for him to step up and be more firm with some of his content - pretty much the DW stuffs - and see if that might reach especially more young people. You'll never get people to ascend if they are reverting and get stuck at the bottom in despair. You have to stabilize the system back to steady let's say, since it threw itself too far out of whack, and bring it back up more slowly. You can't just ignore the damage to people now and the future millions that would likely cause an even more extreme fracturing in that future, with who knows what consequences. It's like a new Island being born - we've got to cool off a bit before we are able to expand and grow again, while still weathering the usual storms and erosion. I don't have the vocabulary and word-painting abilities of an intellectual to do justice for what I am trying to say, but I think any honest person knows what I am trying to get across, and knows I am writing the truth. I have carefully thought about this in earnest and this is not "my truth" either. I believe it is the truth in a general sense. Perhaps not perfect, but nonetheless. Take care all. This was a very good video.

[@cdv5514]

"I don't have the vocabulary and word-painting abilities of an intellectual to do justice for what I am trying to say" I for one got you crystal clear... Yes you do. Very good comment.

[@markcollins1497]

No I don’t think Jordan has changed. I think he’s just as snappy as ever. One still has to tease apart the useful and the useless in what he says. Yeah, same guy…

[@MandrakeDCR]

@@markcollins1497 I think that goes for everyone I've ever watched or listened to. Parse through whatever is being said to consider and find what seems useful or not. Usually plenty of both just like in this video. On an end note, I'd argue Dr. Peterson is definitely making an effort to be more "outlandish" than in the past with the volume (decibels) and occasional swear. Same guy, just trying a different approach in certain venues as stated.

[@ruthanne6729]

Beautifully said. You spoke for many of us.

[@joefilter2923]

JP is a superficial crank!

[@lmm5892]

Wow, this was depressing. The pathology of green is what has devolved. I see the shadow of Integral has yet to be addressed, morphing further into the unrecognizable.

[@bataddei]

I've always loved KW's ideas and have learned a lot from him. I'm still not smart enough to understand it all but for what it's worth It's a shame that instead of talking about the issues of today in common terminology everything is discussed in terms of colours and integral terminology. I think it does the viewer a disservice. It's also a shame that KW has never gone head to head with any other thinkers to deal with criticism directly. So while I loved the content in his books, his surroundings have many times resembled cult-like behaviour and seem isolated. This has lead me to not trust everything he says as it has not been held to peer review... at least to my knowledge. My ignorant 2c

[@annielue7252]

I agree with you. I read his earlier books.

[@dominikgarbauer6883]

I think one should never trust erverything some figure like Wilber or Peterson say. Instead we need to think for ourselves and make up our minds why we disagree (i.e. sensemaking described by Daniel Schmachtenberger). I think this would very much be in harmony with what Peterson, Wilber and others would want their "followers" to do.

[@deborahmarinelli9277]

Orange? Green? Integral? Sorry can’t follow 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@lessismore7271]

I suspect you do understand it and what he's saying just isn't that deep.

[@bataddei]

I appreciate the comments, I do think for myself but I am not as knowledgeable as intellectuals, so I find great value in watching them debate each other. This is really helpful as many times when someone’s argument is reframed it opens the door to new questioning, thereby helping me think for myself without having to also study all the references. My point was that I have never seen KW have a debate with anyone who challenged his views and the people who I currently listen to never mention him. It’s sad because I found his work really interesting. I hope someone like Sam Harris or Jordan Peterson speak about his theories some day.

[@ToBTCoT]

For many living in Canada, myself included, it has felt like Canada has been under attack internally from their own government, primarily the current political party in power, the Liberal party, who is now being kept in power because of the socialist party of Canada (the NDP) as they have formally formed a coalition. The medical tyranny that has been unscientifically imposed upon all members of society (covid vaccinated and Covid vaccine free, alike) has been EXTREMELY stressful, especially for the Covid vaccine free people. Many vaccinated people with platforms , JPB included, spoke up about this very critically, and thank goodness for that. The experience for a young, “free” population of a country like Canada to be relatively blindsided by their government in such a way was/is traumatic. I think this has impacted many Canadians intensely. And frankly, the sharper aggression you see from JBP could be seen as necessary as for many of us we truly are fighting for our freedom. Full stop.

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

Canada is under the control of the Worrld Ecconomicc Forrumm (sorry, trying to avoiddd gooogggle algoorithmmmm) Chrystia Freeland was just promoted to treasurer, I believe of that organization for her loyal service, not to her country. You guys need to take your country back, but you have to understand who you are taking it back from.

[@ToBTCoT]

Yes, those of the resisters are well aware of the WEF’s and other NGO’s influences upon our political “leaders”. The VAST majority of the print, radio and television media networks are government subsidiaries and it is like watching, reading hearing propaganda 24/7. And then the echo chambers of social media seem to keep people separated other than the organic sharing of counter narratives via messages, tags, etc.

[@throwacnt7603]

@Michael Zaremba He sadly or conveniently enough GOT the jab to "comply" hoping they would "leave me the fck alone!" Then after everyone got it he came out against it, allegedly because he realized they wouldn't stop. Over 90% of Canadians are jabbed with very high boosted rates. By the way, Hungary now has 20% drop in reproduction the past year along with many other countries showing such decreases (Taiwan 23%, Sweden 10%, Germany and others ~12). Good luck, Canada!

[@heavyj2134]

I'm in Canada too, and I think you are exactly correct. In my estimation, Jordan is summoning a proportional amount of ire in light of the threat we face as Canadians. This interview frustrated me. I feel like Rebel Wisdom habitually and consistently now erects a straw man of Jordan Peterson, and proceeds to criticize that without bothering to properly contextualize Jordan's commentary. Also, can we be friends? LOL!😀

[@houseofcharm4751]

This provides some clarity. Thanks

[@ilzitek2419]

I respect Ken Wilber and Jordan Petersen … why not wearing a wig? Why is everyone so upset about Petersen fighting back the beastly culture? I love The way he is challenging Twitter and its despicable censorship.

[@hairydude4020]

Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist/professor who did a thesis on alcoholism, yet claimed that he wasn't aware of the well known dangers of benzodiazepines... Jordan Peterson also stated himself that he "adamantly" tried to get a client to take pharmaceuticals. A clinical psychologist who isn't even aware of the well known dangers of benzodiazepines, yet pushes pharmaceuticals onto others, has questionable competency at the very least; can you grasp how dangerous this type of incompetence is within the mental health world? ....

[@ruthanne6729]

We all want someone to speak out against evil. Until he actually does speak out. And then we hate him and won’t listen to him because “he’s angry.” But if he didn’t speak out he would be “complicit.”

[@juansenaranjo]

@@hairydude4020 His problem wasn't the common addiction phenomenon, but a very strange Alergic reaction. He has said to take SSRI's for long time; but the benzos was different because it caused a rare condition untreatable in any North American health services.

[@hairydude4020]

@@juansenaranjo Jordan Peterson's reaction to benzodiazepines has nothing to do with what I've stated....... Can you grasp how dangerous the type of incompetence demonstrated by Jordan Peterson as a clinical psychologist is within the mental health world and?

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

Good to see KW back. I don’t think that the criticisms of JP are quite fair, he is a therapist trying to heal damage done, often at earlier levels, for which many people are grateful. KW has really influenced my thinking over the years, but I have said, KW often speaks with all the wisdom of a man who has never raised children. JP is not a spiritual guide, but a psychologist often treating mental illness and pathology. KW by his own admission is also not a spiritual teacher but a pandit (scholar).

[@Humanaut.]

Well KW claimed to be enlightened before. Something didn't smell right about him, self indulgence of the spiritual ego so to speak. He is clearly extremely intelligent, but deluded in this aspect regarding himself none the less.

[@MrCman321]

The problem is JP is not doing the acting like a therapist for the culture anymore. He is actively fomenting the "us vs them" mentality, is indulging in his shadow and aggressive tendencies. He has more or less declaired war against those on the far left. He is being reactionary simply to get back at the left, and while as a human I understand that, as someone who is supposed to be a pillar of the current intellecutal milieu, he is doing a horrible job in guiding people into the future. And how he has given in to being behind a pay wall with the daily wire +.

[@Humanaut.]

@@MrCman321 What is the function of healthy aggression? It is to defend against someone overstepping your boundaries. The far left is actively trying to destroy that which has led western culture to prosper, just to pursue an ideological dream which has led to millions of deaths anytime it has been tried in the past. It's good to stand up to that. Even tolerance must have it's limits if you want to avoid (self)annihilation.

[@MrCman321]

@@Humanaut. Healthy aggression does not counter impede on others boundaries. That is just revenge, and causes the cycle of aggression to ramp up, because they hit back, and then you hit back in turn. As Wilbur was saying, integration is the correct way forward. Jordan's aggression could lead people to make irrational decisions based on anger and the feeling they are saving western culture by "punching back." I don't know where you stand politically and what your beliefs are, but JPs twitter situation was unhinged. Should we protect children against gender ideology? Yes. Should we attack adults for willingly getting cosmetic surgery? No. Intolerance leads to the same violence that occurred in the 20th century. In JPs own words "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[@LightAndShaddow5]

What specific criticism of JP do you think wasn’t fair? Do yob disagree with KW’s main thesis, that JP had integral moments but regressed to orange due to a (necessary) over reaction / rejection of green, audience capture etc?

[@joolsjeffery3939]

I actually had a reaction to the title because the picture of Ken Wilbur in a wig, against the question “what happened to Jordan Peterson?” Was so absurd. The question could be “what happened to ken Wilbur?”

[@juliette13101]

This is really good I love Jordan, I watched almost all his lectures early 2020 and I learned so much. He’s gone through a lot and I understand he must feel overwhelmed with the responsibility that has been placed on him , much of it while he want even on the internet himself. I am sad though that I feel like his anger, defensiveness and pride are getting in the way of his raw and deep intellectual pursuits. However just because many look up to him and he’s older doesn’t make him immune to the human condition I guess. I hope he will find a new balance and peace thank you for bringing up this conversation

[@thorstenfuzzi5031]

I totally agree. I hope he opens a a bit. Would be beautiful to watch and know.

[@CriticalAfricanThinkers]

Who placed any responsibility on him?

[@juliette13101]

@@CriticalAfricanThinkers this is obviously my perspective of the situation I can’t say whether or not he feels responsibility. What I mean is that like he says a lot, many people come up to him saying how much he impacted them, which of course is great, he did the same for me but its obvious it’s also a burden to some extent. Additionally I felt that a lot of his growth was right before his detox, and he was still blowing up in 2020. When he came back so many things had happened and all the podcasting staples almost felt as though finally he’s back to add his perspective and improve things in some ways, because so much had happened. This with his own personal recovery I can only imagine is a blessing but also a burden.

[@paulineliste4545]

Anger, defensiveness and pride? Hmmm let’s examine the word anger…. This is an energy that makes many people uncomfortable and therefore it has been deemed to be an inappropriate behavior, however what is a better way to identify that there is an enormous issue facing one? As for defensiveness I can’t honestly say that I have observed this.. pride ? A person cannot be truthful if there is a level of proudness attached to words, so I would argue there is no pride coming from JP… the uncanny ability he has to listen very carefully and then choose what the focus of his reply will be and the depth to which he is able to dissect the essence of the conversation can only happen when there is zero ego…

[@CriticalAfricanThinkers]

it's at the point where Peterson is above reproach by some of you, despite the clear evidence. Peterson is after all a man, so despite his good sides, he has his flaws, and pride for now is certainly one of them. Anger, yes, Peterson comes across as angry and unnecessarily intense, even when he was my favourite public intellectual, his intensity always unsettled me. The only way his intensity makes any sort of sense is if it will culminate in some violence, if not, let him chill the fuck out, let him smile, laugh, let his hair down, even if the world is going to shits, he can't save the world. Perhaps Petersons' crusade is a way of avoiding issues in his personal life, something he accuses the left of, something contrary to one of his 12 rules. "Put your life in perfect order before trying to change the world" I sense Peterson's inner world is chaotic and he is looking for meaning outside of himself.

[@gearoidwalsh8606]

A significant gap in Wilber's thinking here is that he connects eg. conservatism and Traditionalism to the "next stage up" of rationalist orange. There is a connection in Traditionalism that is fully second tier - a relationship between the esoteric, mesoteric and (more overtly "fundamentalist" mythic) exoteric. This, and tripartism or the fourfold order (holarchical division of labour) is perhaps THE key Traditionalist argument. In between these levels are the enterprises of science/technology (orange) and proto-philosophy (green). These are not new. They're just inflamed and polarized - and mostly - SPECIALIZED. Wilber comes from a background of epistemology and academia (even though he is far more well versed - I don't want to reduce him, but his work is more fundamentally epistemological). Therefore - he takes these fragments of what esoteric Traditionalism calls "modernity" for progress. There have been some genuine improvements but there is also a parallel thread of inward deterioration. I don't accept Wilber's thesis that we are evolving or that the Kosmos has an evolutionary tilt. (It has evolutionary and involutionary currents). So the question of development remains. I still find the spiral to be descriptive of something - but this "classic" interpretation of almost a ladder of discrete structures here is off base in my view - and ironically it hasn't undergone *development* since I started reading Wilber nearly 2 decades ago now. Another key Traditionalist thesis is that the public is always fundamentally amber/blue. This really helps reframe the culture wars - the green and orange sparring is only skin deep. To take Traditionalism seriously would suggest that religion ought to run in the evolutionary groove that was designed for it - rather than midwit secular specializations that are like handing civilization-destroying weapons to chimps (literally in some cases when it's technological weaponry, and figuratively when it's brutally reductive social theory/praxis).

[@buzinaocara]

I really like your take here, brother. Wielber assumption of a linear route of evolution through which humanity is pacing through during history just never sits well with me, but his descriptions of the stages do feel very familiar. This assumption of linear evolution smells of new-agey utopianism and of his naive assumption that the present is always better than the past. I often read philosophers from millenia ago that seem definetly green, and their texts are remembered to this day because they must have head an audience considerable enough at or close to the same level. I doubt the number of people in each level has changed THAT much since the first big civilizations, they seem to just flunctuate up and down in cycles, and it seems the downward curces are precisely motivated by the pathologies of the highter levels. Basically, at some point, we get to intelectual for our own good, being the monkeys that we are.

[@earthlighteleven]

He's hurting...anything that is not love is a cry for love.

[@jdl2180]

Sounds Like A Course in Miracles

[@houseofcharm4751]

Could that be because he has repressed the feminine in himself?

[@Dirshaun]

I think Mr. Peterson is quite obviously a recognized person in society. He has done a lot of good, for a lot of people. His words quite literally pulled people back from the abyss. This, in my world, gives him moral points. This means that I'm more forgiving of his transgressions, however slight they may be. Few people outside of law enforcement, firefighters, and military can make the claim they have actively saved lives through encouragement and providing a set of mental tools we can all use to make sense of the world around us. Mr. Peterson strikes me more as a emissary from the land of common sense, here to drag us all back to reality. Sooner or later he's gonna take the last train to the coast, and then were on our own.

[@joefilter2923]

I don’t think he’s going to the coast, but probably Russia to get another brain wash.

[@Dirshaun]

@@joefilter2923 petty

[@questor55]

Transgressions? Strong word. We could do with a bit less of this please.

[@barryhamlin4096]

@@questor55 It seems to be a rather kind way of expressing his flawed thoughts and arguments. Which I would have to concur, and not be quite as forgiving nor kind.

[@anttisaksi5735]

'You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain"

[@CrypticCurrent]

This is why falling into the savior archetype is a bad idea imo. I think there has to be a synthesis between the two.

Accusing JP of ‘Click baity’ while using his name to click bait the his audience that put this channel on the map 👀

[@joeymoore1475]

God, I hope Peterson watches this and reflects honestly. At his best, he's such a light. And at his worst, his defensiveness/reactivity fuels the culture war... and betrays his own hero's journey.

[@elektrotehnik94]

This.

[@Mika-El-]

There's a lote of woke bs to slay. It's about noble and urgent protection of our kids.

[@joeymoore1475]

@@Mika-El- I sympathize with your point. But the devil's in the details. The small but significant adjustment I'd make there is: to "slay" the woke, will make the woke more extreme and more populated. The culture war is populating the reactionary poles, quickly. The integral mission of 'transcend and include', envisions a world where Disintegrated Green can own up to their woke insanity, repent from it, and grow. I think 'slay' could work...but I also think it probably won't. And, I think it will make the problem worse...betraying the kids we claim to be protecting. We don't need more war, we need more transformation.

[@Mika-El-]

@@joeymoore1475 I sincerely take your words to mind and heart. Thanks.

[@joeymoore1475]

@@Mika-El- Ditto, I appreciate your openness.

[@shmosel_]

I wish someone would have this conversation with Peterson so we could get his perspective instead of psychoanalyzing him at a distance. If anyone has the ability to introspect on his evolution and possibly course-correct, it's him.

[@Dilmahkana]

I hope so... The Daily Wire deal doesn't bode. In my opinion.

[@alice5515]

His latest video was terrifying - a msg for churches. It’s so venomous and I doubt he’d be receptive, especially with the pre-existing defence going in

[@Eltopo1368]

@@Dilmahkana Why not?

[@michaelerdmann4447]

We need a better epistemograph of his ...perspective, platform, and profile.... going forward. Knowing full well the problems of ...bias, content and interpretation.... in Philosophically Integrative Dialogue going forward.

[@Dilmahkana]

@@Eltopo1368 Because they seem to want to push right-wing politics and values instead of a higher level intergated approach. Also, having a high quality camera set-up, a crew, basically everything involved in his recent video will inevitably change things, it has potential to perpetuate his creep into making himself a 'brand'; we need less of that in general too.

[@angelrojo6466]

Jordan Peterson had his moment, he hit an important switch, but now he's like every other celebrity intellectual, a product.

[@snesjkksdnuesjjsj]

yep

[@ellisgarvin]

I find him to still be relevant and you seem to be making the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy: something is false because it has become popular.

[@snesjkksdnuesjjsj]

no hes fucking deep

[@watermelonslushy1110]

To all those criticising Ken Wilber blindly I need you to know this context: Ken used to be a very fluent speaker, very expressive and developed in how he expressed himself. He almost never left anything unexplained when he spoke. But he began losing this ability in the last 20 years or so. He suffered a really bad illness at that time, and I think that’s the reason why his muscles in his voice have been damaged. I don’t know the exact reason, but something happened to his voice in that time period and unfortunately a lot of people don’t know how to take that into account when listening to him. Listen to Kosmic Consciousness on audible and you’ll know what I mean. It was recorded when this illness he caught hadn’t damaged his voice yet. Also Superhuman OS & Evolutionary Dynamics are amazing courses to learn his integral module. Incredible insight

[@darrenmanser2847]

KC is still one of my favorite interviews ever

[@greyla]

How very purple of you!

[@eviewilde354]

I am so weirded out right now. I'm having a Mandela Effect moment. I specifically remember hearing of Ken Wilber's passing some time ago. I've never been that interested in him as I considered him a cult leader in the past,mbut I definitely remember hearing he had died. So I can't believe he's still around.

[@watermelonslushy1110]

@@eviewilde354 You can’t know if he’s a cult leader until you actually get to know his work Edit: those are silly rumors. i can’t see how anything about his work is “cultish”

[@eviewilde354]

@@watermelonslushy1110 Well, a lot of people who have had a lot to do with Ken Wilber in the past have written about how narcissistic & cultish he is (or was at the time of their involvement with him), & my own experience of him in the past certainly turned me off him big time. He may have an amazing mind for intellectualizing 'the enlightenment process' & psycho-sociological theories, etc, but I just can't get past what a creep he is as a person. Sorry. He is definitely what I would call a 'spiritual narcissist'. I have encountered many in my life time like him, & just looking at him gives me the creeps.

[@saldebus]

interesting that such an intelligent and wise man at 73 would still be concerned about hair; we humans are fascinating and fragile creatures.

[@davewade30]

I've noticed a definite temperament change in Peterson since his near fatal stint in rehab. His content is more emotionally driven, and his self control seems to be less effective than it used to be. To me he comes off as exasperated and impatient. I'm a huge fan of his, but I definitely prefer the calm, rational, oozing self control Peterson ala the Cathy Newman interview or the Sam Harris discussions. I understand his anger, I just wish he'd use a bit less emotion in its expression.

[@vc6327]

That’s unhealed shadow

[@natalyglik9310]

He is a human being went through hell, not a product/service for you to prefer this or that way. Druther your eggs and look in to your consumeristic approach towards people.

[@davewade30]

@@natalyglik9310 Wow. Even prefaced with "huge fan" and an understanding of his rehab struggle, you still managed to get your moral indignation on and find a way to preach at me. Well done. Thanks for the new expression BTW, "druther your eggs" is not common in America, I like it though.

[@bosatsu76]

I always found JP, even his early college work to be self righteous and self superior... His later work seems to simply be 'fuck that college money, Alex Jones money is what I want...' So enter the long slow tough guy approach and stare into the camera to melt the panties of all the little boys watching... Weird as hell... And I wouldn't take advice from anyone who is so obviously struggling with internal demons without a serious sifting of what he's saying... Of course every bad example can be used to learn something... And JP fits that bill. Just my opinion... What do I know...

[@The_Brew_Dog]

I don’t think it’s JP that has changed, if you watch his old videos if anything he has pulled back a lot. If you feel like he has changed you might ask yourself if actually it’s yourself that has changed and are projecting towards Peterson. Further consider David how your sense of it is that all of the IDW have been “pulled down” as you say. But isn’t that odd? Your sense is that all of these others have changed and it couldn’t be that it’s actually you that’s been pulled down?

[@ApacheMagic]

Fair point to consider for all of us!

[@martinst8764]

Thank you for this interview! Great to see Ken again - was wandering how he was. I love the way you tee up such eminent guests with spot-on questions and then sit back to listen with the rest of us - why is that such a rare quality!? Anyway, I'd been having similar thoughts about JP so it was useful to hear this reflection. It is worth remembering that JP has been very, very ill for a very long time. I had put a lot of his increasing aggression down to side effects from medication (he admits to still taking one medication but refuses to say what - fair enough!). But my interest wained after he interviewed Iain McGilchrist.. .....and didn't seem to take him that seriously or get into any of his ideas (immediately countering everything Iain said). For me this highlighted the difference between an intellectual who reads and talks a lot and someone who has engaged in the ways Ken speaks of at the end of this interview. And then when JP started preaching about climate change and ecological destruction (that it's really not much of a big deal) yet he doesn't seem to appreciate the difference between CC and a weather forecast and native forests and crop planted forestry (despite reading "over 200 books" about such material in a two year period - how can anyone digest 200 academic books in two years!?). Perhaps most significantly, however, I detect that JP seems to have not-that-much-time for compassion as a human quality - which goes against all wisdom teachings! Despite all this, I still regard JP as immensely important and he's made me think a lot about my own life. And he's put himself on the line like almost no-one ever before! Perhaps, for now, he's just reached his limit of relevance and is going round in circles?

[@notloki3377]

compassion is not a cardinal virtue, stop rationalizing based on shallow feelings labelled as profound.

[@BearBig70]

I think more like JBPs tolerance has run out. He's frustrated that despite is honest intention to warn people about what's coming, he's still getting sniped at by radical ideologues, and engagement with that minute critics has sidetracked him a wee too much. Oh well, we can't expect people to be saints, not even angels are perfect. God bless him. P.S. " Climate change" is presented simply to gain power and manipulate socities into a New World Order, aka Great Reset, aka Liberal World Order, etc. A dystopian plan to force everyone into the egotistical academia's elite vision of how things "should be". Looks good on paper... as long as you're the author.

[@morrezzo1987]

You sir said it best with kindness and compassion

[@NoLefTurnUnStoned.]

@@notloki3377 Damn, you so deeeep man!

[@XanarchistBlogspot]

Compassion for ones enemies leads to compliance and could perhaps even enable a police state.

[@paulboyter4153]

The reasoning behind the title seems to be geared towards click baiting given the amount of attention Jordan Peterson has acquired. In my personal opinion Jordan has integrated all the various aspects of his being. Yes! He has strong opinions, opinions which in my mind are worded mindfully - accessing the various layers within our world. The beauty of life is that it allows us to integrate all “colours” at various points in our lives - leading to embodiment.

[@thenowchurch6419]

You must be cherry picking your experiences of Peterson. At times he is very sober and balanced but increasingly he has become angry and irrational. He does not display the characteristics of an integrated self as far as I can tell.

[@ledaswan5990]

His brain has been damaged it seems lately.Possibly from the benzodiazepine addiction.

[@paulboyter4153]

@@thenowchurch6419 I wonder integrated anger looks like? To me he is airing out hard topics, which are dear to his heart - it’s possibly the only way he knows how to express it

[@paulboyter4153]

@@ledaswan5990 pharmaceutical damage is a real thing - agreed. Can only see where it goes I guess

[@thenowchurch6419]

@@paulboyter4153 Emperor Haile Selassie I before the League of Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, 1936, is what integrated anger looks like. That an overly emotional and screeching tone is the only way Peterson knows to express his anger is a great pity.

[@williamkoscielniak7871]

It's necessary that so many people "slide down from green" because so many people in this culture get there without incorporating much of any of the values of the previous stages. If someone has a lot of shadow material they have to slide down for a while or else they will transcend and repress rather than transcend and include.

[@jordanthornton]

Great point!

[@iamrubenmes]

This is so true

[@Eric-tj3tg]

True. And, there is no transcendence without integration of the "lower." The word itself, as defined requires it. The "spiritual bypass" IS the repression. JP is an intellectual, but not a practicioner, even if he is a "believer" with great passion.

[@CBMcKinley]

Once, a wise man was asked, "but how to deal with others?" And he replied, "There are no others." In realizing our intrinsic interconnectedness, even in the midst of turmoil, we remember, we are all One. What level are we on if we are speaking of specific others as problems in the way of the great realization we seek? Respectfully, I am not sure this is the Way. Perhaps, a dialogos including someone like Daniel Schmachtenberger, and/or Guy Senstock, along with Peterson and Vervaeke, hosted by Rebel Wisdom, can help solve this challenge of realizing our shared purpose.

[@normaodenthal8009]

Schmachtenberger, Senstock, Peterson, Vervaeke, and Wilber in the same room having a good chinwag is a great idea. Add Bernardo Kastrup and Ian McGilchrist into the mix, and it would be absolutely mind blowing.

[@Joyloulou]

Thank you Thank you so much for this ❤ I had really loved Dr. Peterson’s thought until now. Please Mr. Fuller please keep going with whatever capacity you can handle. YOU are a gift to so many. I think that your understanding and Ken Wilbers work are CRUCIAL AND SALVIFIC for future generations. Ken Wilburs work needs to be taught at ALL Universities as a required course. Even as a major. I wish I could become an expert at his work and then TEACH IT (experientially I have done my inner work a feel that I am at the Unitive Stage of development) .

[@GreatUnwashedMass]

Ken refers constantly to his color framework but it seems to be constraining his thought because he constantly goes in circles without saying much. Having read a summary of his integral theory I see some attractiveness to it but in practice he isn't confirming to me its utility. It really is sad what's been happening to JP. He seems to have the same problem many people get into when they immerse on social media politics. I sometimes wonder if he took his 'carry a heavy burden' a little too much to heart because he fails to balance it with fun, humor, and humility. But more likely, he has suffered from some significant executive function decline presumably from the stress. He seems to lack impulse control. Everything from interrupting his guests constantly to explosive unconsidered outbursts on Twitter. I've got a lobster tshirt and almost too embarassed to wear it these days.

[@ApacheMagic]

No one can read a summary of integral and expect to understand it. There is no quick way to understand this towering body of work. It requires reading, studying, absorbing. He wasn’t taking in circles. It was fascinating, but probably confusing to many because understanding the jargon (colours quadrants AQAL etc) really is the simplest way to express his perspective through the integral lens.

[@contrarykid]

Wilber talks in an opaque and arcane way that makes his comments difficult to understand. His ideas don't seem to be particularly insightful and they are fogged by academic jargon, whereas Peterson is extremely articulate and down-to-earth - a superb communicator. Peterson never attempts to add fake gravitas to his ideas by decorating his concepts with jargon. He speaks lucidly and explains his ideas with simple English that any intelligent layperson can understand. That's one of the reasons he has such a large following. Wilber tries to put people into various combinations of boxes that he claims they should be trying to "integrate". He would be more interesting if he forgot about integrating the "boxes" he slots people into and instead talked directly about ideas free from jargon, colours, categories and boxes to put people in. To me this is faux intellectualism - dressing up a few mundane ideas in 'academic-speak' and jargon that puzzles the layman so that (as below) some of them think they aren't smart enough to fully understand. As the Texans say, "He's all hat and no cattle."

[@al1665]

Have you read Wilber? He's a better writer than speaker and his books are accessible to a layman. I'm not a fan of writers who try to throw big words to say little, Wilber doesn't do that, at least on the books I've read. I don't think his Integral Theory is the end all be all, but he makes interesting points.

[@ghostman6693]

Agreed 👌🏼. Disappearing up your own backside is another way of putting it as well

[@aeonian4560]

The wig signifies that he is in contact with the weird side of life

[@michellerakowski2429]

I love and respect both Ken Wilbur and Jordan Petersen. Super smart men that think in ways most of us never will be able to fully understand.

[@attilaszekeres7435]

You misspelled both men's names.

[@DanRad44]

"Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people." Socrates

[@vickiwithers8563]

Disappointed in this episode People and life are complex. I confess to be disappointed in Peterson on occasion when he gets away from his lectures or recent books However this wreaks of superficial sideline grandstanding There is a massive amount on tribalism and unrest in the world and people including me are sleep walking through rights and freedoms being removed Interesting conversation but little use to those engaged in real life dilemma

[@XanarchistBlogspot]

Exactly, right finally a grounded realist comment.

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@Vicki Withers - Thank You! Agree with everything you state here. I've been following Jordan for years, went through a "honeymoon phase" where he could think and do no wrong, then he made some strong comments / judgments here and there that I thought were too harsh, but "here and there" as compared to the vast majority of times where he contributed profoundly valuable insight, correction, encouragement and exhortation, wisdom, compassion, while modeling personal accountability and humility as well. So, what if the two here are operating on lower frequencies out of jealousy and/or cowardice, but pose in their personas as "compassionate" and "concerned"? Perhaps that is simply what is occurring and they are seeking to remain "relevant" ( which others here are slamming Jordan for doing ).

[@ruthanne6729]

@@machtnichtsseimann I knew I would trust Dr. Peterson when in interview after interview I watched him turn himself inside out, working through what he could have done better and how he felt he had messed up and would try to improve. A little of that public self-reflection from these two Monday morning quarterbacks might win a bit of my respect but so far, nothing.

[@Dhal-SimMusic]

Great comment. Vicki Withers, thank God you’re still Withers (with us).

Jordan Peterson is real. This guy is a theorist… a disengaged moralist that camouflages in his own theory. Note the amount of ‘should’s he said… how people ‘should think’ with a lot of fancy labels. Jordan Peterson is embodied and got himself into the real troubles happening.

And a fancy wig 😆 Indication of how much individuality he was missing and now starting to realize it.

[@jeremywickwire565]

To be fair, Peterson uses a lot of “shoulds”

@@jeremywickwire565 Yes, he is totally moralist but embodied. That’s what I’m pointing to: you have to earn the right embodying it with your life.

[@jeremywickwire565]

@ You mean like when he says that you should be the strongest person at your fathers funeral but then turns to jelly when his wife gets diagnosed with cancer?

@@jeremywickwire565 They handled it very well. And as well raised his children well enough to take care of them in these hard situations. As well he declared, the medicaments he has been taking has been making him oversensitive. Of course you will talk opinionated if you are resonant with this kind of video. Pure opinion and theory.

[@elizabethdesousa8290]

Thank you both. Good to see Ken looking so well and always evolving 🦋🍏

[@nellkellino-miller7673]

I'm still personally deeply conflicted about JP. Not in a painful, confusing way, mind you. Not anymore. I'm just amazed and incredibly grateful that I was able to witness that (and this) particular moment in language, culture and history. He taught me a lot, but most of all through how other people reacted to him or their ideas of him. I've since learned about more nuanced and sophisticated models of reality, more dynamic and elegant modes of being, but it's been fun and fascinating to watch unfold over the years.

[@ribbrascal1065]

What other more fun and "sophisticated" modes?

[@nellkellino-miller7673]

@@ribbrascal1065 That would be a synthesis of a whole bunch of people, JP included that I've watched and read over the years since discovering JP. Plus my own private musings. I'm sure you know what I mean. You discover someone who opens your mind. You idolise them a bit. You grow. You change. You take a bit of this. A bit of that. Life expands your mind. You expand. You become more patient and forgiving. Less so in other ways. Simply put, I guess I've grown. Nothing magical or mystical. Just growth. Happens to all of us. Happy to elaborate further if that's not satisfying.

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@nellkellino-miller7673I understand but Please do, I'm very curious what you think JP misses or gets wrong, what other ideas you've added to his.

[@nellkellino-miller7673]

@@ribbrascal1065 Well then, a good place to start would be "the war on sensemaking" withDaniel Schmachtenberger Part 1. You'll know within the first 5 to 10 minutes if it's your kind of thing. Also the qualia research institute alongside the whole meta-modernist movement. A video called "the hyerbolic geometry of DMT" is a good introduction (again, you'll know in 5 or 10 minutes if it's going to interest you). These are just two of the threads that I've synthesised with things I learned from JP that have given me what I personally consider a more sophisticated model. Happy to answer more questions or help you get to grips with some of the concepts involved in the videos I recommended, if necessary.

[@madelinesouza8585]

Do not allow a collective thought form to take hold of your mind. Step back and protect yourself from the mental virus of agreeing or disagreeing. Allow the freshness of your own thoughts and clear the clutter of others ideas. You will be amazed at your own knowing.

[@ApacheMagic]

Ken, your legacy is guaranteed. I am so glad for your work for exactly the reasons you explained. I first fell into your rabbit hole oh- 20 years ago?- and absorbed integral into my life. It has been an incredibly illuminating lens, useful in every aspect of life, deepens, broadens, adds dimensions. Your work helps me every day to be better, and fairer, more just, less reactive, more forgiving, a better critical thinker. Your work is authentic- ‘what’s there is REALLY there’. Your work is so much more than many realise. Excited about the new book. Also you’re looking great, and speaking so strongly. It was a real treat to find this video and find you thriving ❤️ Thank you!

[@annemariesegeat9397]

🥰

[@stuartmcdonald5172]

I purchased Peterson's book for myself and for my best friend. He responded to a couple of my Tweets as I followed him on Twitter for a couple of years starting 6 years ago. I went to his first lecture at a Christian School after the University of Toronto blocked his lecture at their facility so I was definitely curious and intrigued by what he was saying. Sadly, in the last couple of years he's gotten much angrier, more arrogant and his dignified manner and sense of decorum has vanished. He also seems to have moved further to the right and his general tone is far more combative. It's so nice to see that others have noticed the significant changes he has undergone because it's obvious to me and yet so few seem to have noticed. his health issues and constant (unfair) attacks from the left have embittered him and it's a shame.

[@inshansep]

No, mate. He's always been on the right. Everything was right-wing talking points.

[@alvodin6197]

He's been that way for decades. This is not something new. It's just he's confident not that he's taking pills again

[@freeandcriticalthinker4431]

@@inshansep. Talking points? Well this talk might be a “non productive” use of your time….

[@inshansep]

@@freeandcriticalthinker4431 oh dear god save me from the free AND critical thinkers of the world. Let me guess, no tertiary education, but you have this uncanny ability to do your own research.

[@freeandcriticalthinker4431]

@@inshansep Perhaps you have an ability to know certain facts about others you have never met? Quite impressive I must say indeed! However it appears your skill isn’t perfectly honed as you may think as you missed the mark on both counts in your erroneous claims regarding myself. You mentioned initially that I must not have an ample amount of education. That is completely incorrect and I will correct the record to reflect this allegation which has no grounding or reasoning for stating such. I have three degrees in three different areas of study, two of which were received with honors. Additionally given a very high level of personal interest combined with large amounts of discretionary time and particular resources, I do spend a highly inordinate amount of time and labor researching many topics relevant to “todays culture and world events in general.” While I haven’t added up my estimated time due to it not being personally necessary nor even requested by outside parties, I do know however that the time invested easily surpasses the several thousand hour mark over the past few years at just a glance of my notes. One could state and accurately so that it’s become a part time job of mine. But it’s not a job I mind in the least bit as the purpose primarily is for my own personal interest. That being said, there is another major reason for this unusual dedication of time and resources and that is because the outcome of this pursuit helps safe guard against the undue biases and indeed actual indoctrination attempts which appears to be so insidiously pervasive in recent times which shows only evidence that this is growing in strength and frequency. I go about this by gathering information from hundreds of varying sources of information who represent a wide array of perspectives and affiliations across many differential indices. This provides a good ballast (and No, not perfect) against any prevalent monolithic attitudes, prejudiced or coerced positions and of course corruption from outside influences like our government to name just one painfully overt example. Lastly this data must be cross analyzed against each other with historical merit and credibility of each source being weighted accordingly. It’s just my take and obviously many people don’t have the luxury of such time, resources or inclination to do so. I do however highly recommend this for anyone left deeply wanting much more than your “Talking Points” or “Headline Intelligence”. which one is likely to get with just quick cursory glances. I find that it quickly evaporates issues such as politically oriented maladaptive behavior, illogical ideological adherence and ill sourced attitudes which are acted upon as to name just a few that are so common today. Above comment to which I am replying being a text book example indeed….)

[@rememberingme983]

Peterson's fight is misunderstood as opposing the excesses of 'green' (post-modern). The most aggressive self-appointed leaders of 'green' are actually 'red' (tribal) in disguise. These individuals have made it clear they are not interested in differing views, and so are not pluralistic. Peterson knows well that tribalism is characterised by warfare and so he has taken up his spear. His words to religious institutions are also to remind these communities to live up to their own standards. He cannot be labelled as 'amber' because he respects differing faiths, and he cannot be labelled as 'orange' because he clearly values the transcendent. So that leaves him as at least 'green' verging on 'teal' (integral) reflected in his ability to hold multiple perspectives and his place at the leading edge of culture. His state of health and emotional expression is the price paid for trench warfare. No-one gets to do what he does without scarring, albeit temporary. He appears to be one epiphany short of a full transformation to second tier.

[@terraprojects]

This channel tends to be a high-brow gossip of what's going on among people who discuss the matters in the world rather than what is actually going on in the world. I feel it is a bit in a vacuum.

[@grey.knight]

This channel is a limited hangout designed to waste your time with intellectual claptrap.

[@consciously73]

Wilber makes a good point here, which is unfortunately couched in language that comes across a bit cult-like. Post Modernist / Woke ideas need to be integrated and transcended. Fighting it is regressive, because fighting fire with fire is polarising and destructive. The culture war is increasingly popular and there's some serious money to be made, hence the ascendancy of media outlets like Daily Wire, etc.

[@michaelnice93]

If you want to end the culture war just unplug the internet, Bill Burr was right, it was a mistake! Getting a bunch of people who disagree with each other together online is just a bad idea.

[@KrucLeo]

Personally, I have quite a hard time following Wilber. Im not sure why he is so insistent in using colors to represent abstract social concepts to that degree, as if it's a normal, common thing to do.

[@consciously73]

@@KrucLeo yeah, I'm only peripherally familiar with Integral Theory, and I can understand the overview of what he's talking about, but I agree that the whole colour scheme would come off obscure to neophytes. It's probably best to watch an explainer video about Integral before watching this interview.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

This is it. Peterson has become a warrior of a war that cannot be won with the weapons of the Daily Wire. All it will do is create more war.

[@hgfdshtrew8541]

@@KrucLeo I have seldom heard so little said with so many words. So inaccessibly, so arrogant, ignorant of the duty of communication to outsiders. It feels obstructive and cultlike. It feels like it is without empathy and clarity. I am always staggered by the people viewed as so smart. He says that JP was treated unfairly as being considered to be 'alt right' - meanwhile he -constantly- references hitler, was doing hitler impressions, nazi goosestep impressions and nazi salutes in lectures in 2014/15. Champions capitalism, encourages tribalism, uses the word 'degenerate' and almost absolutely respects 'order'. Madness

[@carlacorsini7766]

From my perspective there are many lines of “development” within individuals and groups and it doesn’t work to configure them in the way described here. I appreciate what KW brings to the conversation but for me JP is more developed from a soul perspective because he insists on a continuation of ritual and tradition, as well as the inclusion and importance of direct experience. This to me equates to a more rational and scientific view given the holographic universe and my own direct experience. We may be “developing” in the round but until the oneness ken speaks of (as if it were an alien experience to be acquired thru meditation) is integrated, we should not always consider what we are doing as development.

[@EulogyfortheAngels]

What struck me is that there's a clear difference between Peterson organically, empathetically discussing a topic with someone (the majority of my experience of him), and Peterson reading from a teleprompter, conveying strong convictions while speaking to a screen. There is no dialogue with the latter route - where's the spirit of connection, of communication? I feel as if I'm being preached to. Sure, he has plenty of posted videos of himself teaching university uninterrupted, but this is awkwardly more personal (he looks at the camera), and is mostly built on a theme of his distaste/discontent with whatever topic.

[@TheRealSamPreece]

Are you vaccinated? Do you wear a mask? Do you follow the status quo? Do you still trust media and government? If so, then you deserve to be preached to. Gone are the days when we can have a reasonable discussion. Now it's a stern telling-off, because the majority absolutely need it.

[@EulogyfortheAngels]

@@TheRealSamPreece would Peterson tell you not to do all or most of those things? 🤔 Stern telling-offs won’t work. The second people don’t meet in the middle to talk, both sides radicalize or double down more on their ideologies. This type of delivery basically just riles up an echo chamber for views, which is ironic timing for joining Daily Wire +.

[@TheRealSamPreece]

@@EulogyfortheAngels fair point. We get what we deserve.

[@chrislanier6786]

Listening to Ken speak is a completely different experience than participating in the "I'm more turquoise than you" or "when are they going to wise up and let us run the world" discussions that are the almost exclusive offering on the social media groups dedicated to his work. That being said, I disagree with him on a lot of things, but his "Pre/trans fallacy" and horizontal/vertical development models have given me a framework for explaining in five sentences what used to take me five pages. Ken is a brilliant guy. But I wish he would explain what the hell he is talking about to those who aren't familiar with his work.

[@jkscout]

I used to identify as non-binary, and if you've been immersed in this debate for years, like I have been, then you understand and find Jordan's words on this issue, whether unsettling to you or not, absolutely necessary. As we saw with JK Rowling, if you go soft with these ideologues, they will rip you to shreds. JP is simply aware of this and responding accordingly in my opinion. His words might sting, but this kind of response is what is needed to put an end once and for all to the systemic homophobia and misogyny at the heart of trans activism.

[@jordanedgeley6601]

There's definitely a split in his audience, and he could arguably fight in the culture war so to speak in a more gracious manner, but he's always been combative and as we know aggression can be necessary.

[@williambarnes7948]

I have confidence he is being true to his inner voice, and note how he is way more polite than most people who oppose things they consider evil.

[@kw5961]

It seems to me Jordan has let hist worst tendencies overtake him. The rage that Gabor noted early on has matisized into a generally intolerant and dogmatic worldview. He has become just like his worst critics only from a right-wing position.

[@meghan42]

Aggression can also be a huge turn-off.

[@michaelnice93]

Jordan is not healthy in mind or body. Either is Ken interestingly. I don’t take guidance from either of them though I have uses for their work. Ken and Jordan are not examples to emulate they are intellectual egg heads who can speak well and stimulate thought. The culture war is a stupid whipped up thing not a grass roots movement, it is gross, I keep far away from it.

[@charlesballiet7074]

always combative? you mean hes been harried at every step for the last 8 years with people trying to cancel him not to mention the drug episode. Its enough to shorten anyone's fuse

[@jakelloyd3993]

Summary: Outsiders jealously looking in on those who decided to stand for something other than overly-verbose academic blather, and have been rewarded handsomely for their courage.

[@FortYeah]

Thank you David. The trust Ken Wilber shows to you is manifest and it gave a great interview. And the less it was about Peterson, the better it got!

[@deirdredowling2251]

He starts off telling us what most people already know and it becomes just words without real meaning

[@jamiewolf4601]

I've been a student of KW since 2000 and JP since 2005 but JP no more. Integral Life seems to be running in circles with politically "woke" applications of integral. The only folks I see carrying the ball further are John Vervake and Layman Pascal.

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

Reading the criticisms of JP again. Why is everyone so afraid of aggression? Why is everyone so afraid of red tier? Red healthy aggression has its appropriate expression. I see nothing wrong with calling for combative, healthy even aggressive debate. If you all are really integral, ride the entire wave. Don't get stuck at green, even healthy green

[@joannawierszyllo6323]

I do not understand how these two people find it right to talk about JP or anybody else like that...I followed RB, have read Ken Wilber's books. Jordan P is a real figure, I can agree or disagree with some of his ideas but wouldn't dare to judge or say I know better what happened with him or what you could find inside his mind....I've found it really inappropiate.

[@fightington]

I'd say the choice was made for the greater good. They were very very compassionate about it

[@joannawierszyllo6323]

@@fightington What choice? And what is the greater good...I understand JP is a public figure but it his life, his experience, his responsibility and his decisions that he makes. And he takes actions and he speaks and expresses his truth and his beliefs. I respect it, he is a brave man not just in terms of his professional career but as a human being. There is nothing wrong with that, there is nothing wrong with. The title of this video sounds disturbing to me.

[@hansnielsen6280]

What/Who is “RB”?

[@joannawierszyllo6323]

@@hansnielsen6280 Rebel Wisdom

[@crackboi6003]

reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV" It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer. "so what you're saying is.." and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.." she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more. Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy

[@YesBruv105]

I feel the 'never trust a hippy' concern I had for Rebel Wisdom, is being vindicated. 😆😆😆 It is interesting to dip into, but can often result in a cringe for me personally... each to their own.

[@crackboi6003]

reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV" It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer. "so what you're saying is.." and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.." she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more. Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy

[@konberner170]

Interesting, but this didn't age well since it was taped fairly recently. Ken talked about taking an integral approach and then repeatedly excluded Islam from his recommended religions, while on the same day this was released Jordan uploaded a message reaching out to Islam in response to the large interest he has gotten from having an open mind to these teachings on his show. Who is more integral here? Ken is generally correct that drawing from many (not all) of the popular human ideas is needed for an integral perspective. He is also correct that the experience of unity is necessary to START to understand higher levels of consciousness, and he is also correct that it is unlikely Jordan has had this experience (he implied but didn't state this) and this is linked to why Jordan has been struggling as much as he has. However, all of this gets at my critique of Ken's presentation here. The implication is that, for example, combining rationality with postmodernism is necessary to achieve an integral perspective. This is both true and false. Why? Because each of these has a light and dark aspect. So rationality has a dark aspect in nihilism and strict materialism, and postmodernism has a dark aspect in obscurantism and justification of nihilistic philosophies such as Marxism. What? Do I dare to imply that there is nothing of value from the integral perspective in Marxism? Yes, I very much dare to do so, and this is why _discrimination_ is necessary to the integral perspective, and while one could say that _in theory_ , compassion is the part of Marxism that would be part of the integral perspective, if the actual writings are examined, they are all about blame. Blame has no part in the integral perspective, but the willingness to throw out all of the dark aspects is critically necessary. So, I understand why he didn't mention Islam in his list of recommended religions, but he will have to also apply this same discrimination to notions such as "left" and "right'. These views may both have elements that are needed for an integral perspective, but _in their current forms_ they do not both have the same amount to offer, because there is more dark in the left than right at the moment. Did Ken say this? No. Is it very important because discrimination is very important to an integral perspective? Yes. What I see is that maybe there is a color (or colors) missing from Ken's palette. Maybe purple, the blending of the red of Dionysus and the blue of Apollo, to use some metaphors from Nietzsche, is what he is missing. Jordan sometimes talks of how it is important to be dangerous and yet in control of that dangerousness. This is an example of voicing the _need_ for both passion, real passion, and blended with real rationality and good will. Jesus whipped those contaminating the temple with money from his passion. Does an effeminate guy with fake hair emanate any real passion? Not for me. And this matches his smarmy "can't we all just get along" equivocation that all but begs everyone to feel as if their darkest notions must be fully supported somewhere in his "integral" blob, which becomes a blob from having no boundaries. In the final analysis, Ken could learn from Jordan, and Jordan from Ken, but I'd guess that, of the two, Jordan would be faster to agree about this then Ken would, and that says a lot about their real levels of consciousness.

[@spiritualpolitics8205]

I largely agree with your take; see my comment above. A big fan of Peterson, I do think he's lost his emotional filter recently, having been up against so very much, and that the decay in his emotional self-control is deleterious to his erstwhile wider mission. Which doesn't mean he should stop, but that perhaps he should temper a bit his temper. The left is immensely more insane right now than the right, and that needs to be a ground assertion in any discussion like this -- just to keep things sane. The fact that both of these otherwise admirable men refused to assert this goes to the very core of the danger we are up against. The hard left has commandeered nearly all of our institutions, and milquetoast "can't we all get along" universalism is not going to cut it.

[@konberner170]

​@@spiritualpolitics8205 Thank you. For anyone who desires a finer point on this, I'd suggest viewing Jordan's "Is Communism Fueled by Love or Hatred?" clip. I agree with Ken that the short term looks dire and the longer term looks potentially good, but my real question for him is what is he doing about it other than pontificating? If he isn't speaking out against the darkness, to what extent is he part of the problem?

[@truenorth2615]

I was really impressed with Jordan's earlier videos where he interviewed Muslim clerics and the like. However, his most recent video certainly shows that his reaching out to the Muslim community is more a relationship of convenience rather than a true attempt to see and understand other peoples point of views. Practicing Muslims tend to be conservative in most of their values. They don't want and openly oppose progressive views. I remember being a little confused where Jordan's motivations lie in speaking with members of the Muslim community and his last video, where he asks the Muslim community to 'smarten up' (my paraphrase) really made it clear where he was coming from. The enemy of my enemy is my friend....he is trying to use the Muslim community to further wedge the divide between his beliefs and the enemy (Post Modernists/Social Justice Warriors etc..). It was really quite disappointing to watch and so blatantly obvious what his intentions were. He has turned into a click bait caricature of his former self. Ellen Page? Sports Illustrated covers? ....really??!!....that's what it takes to get attention and stay relevant?! He's a bloody PHD and these are the topics he has stooped to commenting about? I have only watched just less than half of this interview but so far I completely agree with most of their assessments about Jordan. It's disappointing because I believe Jordan was really in a unique position to unite but now he has instead decided to join the heaps of public personalities dead set on dividing....they are a dime a dozen these days.

[@F--B]

He likely excludes Islam because it hasn't modernised (i.e. become liberal) in the way that Christianity has. It perhaps shows an intuition on his part that Tradition cannot be 'included' within an essentially progressive scheme like Integral.

[@sandleparf]

@@spiritualpolitics8205 Interesting. I see it as the opposite. The right has gone completely insane, and the left's problem is that we cannot deal with the right's insanity without regarding them as evil, and hurting our own sanity in the process.

[@ozanoguzhaktanir]

He said "this is a wig" and I clicked the like button. This is the sincerity I seek.

[@netoxis3258]

It's calming to see that there is a way out of the culture war, thanks for the vid and for the title, because it did "bait me" as a person who likes Jordan Peterson, and I'm grateful that the topic went beyond or more likely, it was the main topic from the beginning

[@georgieb1471]

Maybe we need to ask "what have we done to Jordan Peterson?" Clearly an intelligent, sensitive, troubled man who we pushed to the fore to lead the entire culture war and become its foremost target. Honestly I think it's cheap and tacky to go in hard on Peterson as if he's public property. You are part of the problem.

[@paul8195]

Especially after interviewing JP too, all feels a little bit shady. Could even say the prior meet with him was to fish for anything and pretty much asses him personally before going do this “clicky” titled piece of media. Hmmmmm

[@SuperKripke]

The guru of personal responsibility and accountability is now being defended because his own increasingly unhinged actions were in fact caused by the wokists and media. JP stans are the best at cognitive dissonance.

[@georgieb1471]

I'm not a JP "stan". For one thing, I'm not a teenager, so I don't "stan" anybody. I'm pointing out that there is something shady about pushing someone forward as a leader and watching them take the blows, then sitting back and criticising them for the damage that's been inflicted as a result. Honestly I am a bit disappointed that RW and its "stans" don't have a bit more insight into the wider dynamics here.

[@jamesmilne1984]

Found this video pretty distasteful myself. I don't really think anything has changed, the "Wise Rebels" got here on Peterson's coat tails and continue to profit from him. Perhaps some insight might be useful to them, Yuh know wisdom?

[@SuperKripke]

@Hellig Usvart Hard to pick. Maybe his constant swearing after being very well spoken. Referring to surgical procedures as cutting up breasts and balls. Telling Muslims to be penpals to solve a centuries old conflict. Telling Christians to put up signs saying young men welcome and stop being social justice warriors. Calling an overweight model not beautiful and that the editors of the magazine were authoritarians. Calling Elliot page's Doctor a criminal. Childishly insisting that Elliot is a she and is still Ellen considering he doesn't do the same for Caitlyn Jenner.

[@rooruffneck]

Can anybody tell me if Ken Wilber still plans to publish the not-so-easy book that contains his leading thoughts? Over 15 years ago this was talked about as if it was almost finished, but haven't heard anything since then. That said, I'd love to congradulate him on writing another great summary of his work. It all helps.

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

I too am waiting for part 2 of the great trilogy. Maybe he's becoming more like George RR Martin. If I had to guess, I think he is delaying the release because he feels the world is not ready to hear his gender types research. He is going to get heat from all sides, and there will be lots of pre trans fallacy that the culture will have to work through

[@rooruffneck]

@@radiantsilvergun8479 Thanks for the interesting response. Is there somewhere I can read about his gender types concept?

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

@@rooruffneck I don't remember where, it was an interview where he said part two would focus on Types on the AQAL map, including male and female types. The reason for not releasing the book is pure speculation on my part. I have heard interviews where he expressed frustrating with the discussion surrounding the transgender issues. I speculate that he feels the culture at large is not ready for this information, both the left and the right. I don't think the culture is ready either, too many pre trans fallicies to overcome.

[@greatmomentsofopera7170]

He’s not really made progress since Sex ecology spirituality. That is his magnum opus. Everything since then has been tiny rearrangements of his basic thought…

[@janso7979]

@@radiantsilvergun8479 Sex, Ecology, Spirituality came out in around 1995. At the time he said the last two volumes of the Kosmos Trilogy would appear at ten year intervals in order to give the world time to evolve to the level of his thoughts. Around 2005 and 2015. The whole "allowing time for the world to evolve" thing was most likely a way to give him what he thought would be plenty of time to develop his theories further, which he was unable to accomplish in any large-scale manner. My opinion is that he simply wasn't able to satisfactorily complete the books and that the project has been long abandoned, although I imagine there are large quantities of unpublished writings which were meant to be included in the later volumes.

[@tonybaker2968]

I am so happy to see this interview, David, and thank you so much for a gracious interview that acknowledges Ken Wilber's immense stature. I have studied and read him to the extents of my intellectual capacities, and have found Integral theory something to be used day by day, moment by moment, to interpret reality. I loved George Land his transformational theory (GROW OR DIE), and L. Ron Hubbard for the same reason, and, most emphatically, Iain McGilchrist, whose asymmetrical structure could be extended to the universal. I am glad to see Ken, for whom I feel as much personal affection as I hold for Jordan Peterson, honored and consulted to give us his take, as he gave us his take on Trump.

[@confrontpotential7133]

Yes, I think the crystallization of his combative/aggressive posture is purely commercial. He has sacrificed his philosophical capacity to be flexible/agile. Ultimately, the result is divisive and regressive.

[@crackboi6003]

reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV" It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer. and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.." she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more. Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy

[@alextrusk1713]

what is a good place to start understanding integral

[@seriousoldman8997]

Plenty of videos. Try Spiral dynamics, both the Graves model and the Integral model. Then follow your nose.

[@ghostman6693]

I salute anyman who can get anyone to take him seriously with that on his head

[@watermelonslushy1110]

😂 You should learn and apply some integral theory and you’ll have radical acceptance for a lot of new things. It will give you a peace of mind not many of us have!

[@waynemcmillan5970]

Ken is such a deep thinker, always a pleasure to listen to his talks.

[@mutedplum465]

30:49 do you think David would consider 'mythic = fundamentalist religion' to be a complete analysis of the situation, i mean Harry Potter is a modern myth, not sure fans of the books would think of themselves as religious fundamentalists though 🤔

[@WaffleStomper69]

Holy shit Ken Wilber was a really big vehicle for my exploration of the kinds of ideas he studies early on in my track of those concepts. I couldn't tell you how valuable it was to find work that mapped onto my thoughts from that time, which I had trouble finding elsewhere in a form that wasn't spiritual-minded.

[@joe42m13]

JBP has thrown his lot in with the culture warriors and some people are going to love it. I think his best work was his Maps of Meaning and Personality courses, but his politics feels much more middle of the road and i he's squandering his good-will by becoming the caricature the leftists always accused him of being. I hope he can avoid falling into ideology he was always so critical of.

[@thijsjong]

He lost all sence of nuance and subtlety. Stares into the Abyss paraphrase.

[@mikeoveli1028]

Jordan is phony. His faux anger is the one that shows that everything he rails against is actually who he is.

[@confrontpotential7133]

Yep. Commercially aligned with Shapiro and Daily Wire+.

[@confrontpotential7133]

@@mikeoveli1028 His "faux anger" has solidified as a result of his commercial interests (ie, alignment with Shapiro/Daily Wire+, especially systatised media production).

[@mutedplum465]

@@mikeoveli1028 he says that anger integration is part of shadow work, faux anger doesn't sound integrated unless you are on stage i guess, accentuating emotions for effect. shadows of the bard 🤔

[@2ndbar]

Someone once said that to be understood is the demise of a philosopher. If so, this guy will have a rosy future.

[@zootsoot2006]

His stuff is really not that hard to understand. His writing style is very lucid and he hammers home the main points repeatedly. Personally, his books utterly changed my life, brought me back from a very dark place intellectually. I think a lot of JP fans would do well to read his works, they let you understand what's going on with the rise of wokism and how it's an inevitable part of societal progress, but with major kinks that need to be ironed out, rather than some luciferian wrong think that needs to be crushed. That way just leads to even more repression and intolerance than the woke brigade display. JP himself seems to be going that way and his latest pronouncements seem more and more unhinged.

[@morganpottruff5973]

I'm surprised Justin Trudeau hasn't found his way into this conversation. He's the biggest reason JP feels the way he does.

[@derosa1989]

Peterson is so triggered by JT that he's constantly making the Fundamental Attribution Error. JBP thinks everything the Federal government in Canada does is somehow an expression of JT personality flaws and predisposition, rather than circumstances and political context.

[@konberner170]

In other words, Jordan is seeing the real impact of these bad ideas and would like to actually do something about it? Yes, true.

[@docsavagemanofbronze6362]

@@konberner170 No.

[@xzanthius]

I've seen the change in Jordan Peterson. I think his patience has run out... period. That's not necessarily a bad thing, we should only be patient in the face of sincerity.

[@ruthanne6729]

The change in Dr. Peterson is that he has got healthy again and feels better than he has in five years, and all the issues that have been plaguing him, that he hasn’t been strong enough to address, have reached a boiling point, and he finally feels strong enough to take a stand on them and speak out. Let him roar.

[@BritneyToomey]

Why don’t you just have Peterson on? I don’t understand why you keep expressing this changed opinion of him without just exploring it with him. Just have a conversation with the man. This is all a bit “stuck in the head,” a bit over-intellectualized to be honest.

[@charlieweaver6322]

I think he's burnt his bridges with Peterson now.

[@BritneyToomey]

@@charlieweaver6322 Peterson would talk to him, though. I think he’s best in those scenarios, actually…. (Think Kathy Newman…)

[@charlieweaver6322]

@@BritneyToomey I don't think he would talk to him now

[@docsavagemanofbronze6362]

@@BritneyToomey That's one of the problems with many of Peterson's fans, they keep harking back to him " destroying" an unsuspecting and unintelligent tv host, years ago, as if he had just debated Noam Chomsky. It's kind of embarrassing.

[@crackboi6003]

@@docsavagemanofbronze6362 reading the substack by david fuller I thought hey this might be interesting and it was in some points my first raised eyebrow was from "Shortly after watching the interview I messaged both Peterson and Cathy Newman to congratulate them on a brilliant piece of TV" It wasn't Cathy was horrible, everything she said made her sound like a carricature of a stupid and useless interviewer. and then later on "The writer Helen Lewis had a famous and combative interview with Peterson for GQ magazine that has as many views as his breakout viral moment with Cathy Newman, in her review of Beyond Order, she makes the following observations:.." she was even worse, aggressive, ill-informed and so much more. Someone who would praise and quote these.. people strikes me as deeply untrustworthy

[@mavericktheace]

Did I just miss the part where these colour terms are defined??

[@upgroovebeyondmusicnz5035]

I must have missed something as I don’t understand all these colour code things like Green etc- what does this all mean. Do I need to watch another video first? Can someone simply explain it please in a simple way ? 😊

[@santikim8134]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2O7fGtnZ9mGo68

[@diegomoreno2919]

Ken Wilber one of the most brilliant minds of 21st century. He made philosophy accesible to me and his theory helped me to realize I can draw knowledge from many sources (philosophy, religion, science). The debates on "truth" are outdated (we no longer live in middle ages), and we can make our own truth (dignity of modernity). And every POV is correct but partial. If only I had integral theory at school.

[@LewisWavecrest]

What a convenient ideology ken has crafted, where he can assume the lofty position having transcended '1st tier' thinkers. Why don't you talk to Jordan face to face, ken

[@florencephippaz3164]

Great to see you Ken, thank you for everything.

[@claycon]

There can be no synthesis without shared values. I’m happy to let others live as they please. But when we see (for example) gender fluidity taught to little kids in schools, it’s time to draw the line in the sand. These are topics are for mature adults at home.

[@shelleyashfield5642]

Those who are not actively parenting underestimate how their thought experiments actually play out in a family setting. I got to see for myself the havoc wrought by animal rights activists "reaching out" to the pre-teen crowd (eating disorders right before a major growth spurt).

[@Nivexity]

The problem with David's perspective is that he's willfully ignoring the difference in seriousness over the last few years, Peterson isn't compromised in the way David frames it, rather Peterson unlike David has taken a step forward to deal with ideological problems. This is why Ken Wilbur is probably right to consider Peterson a step towards conservatism as Peterson is drawing lines in the sand to tackle the increasing post-modern/egalitarian perspective that Wilbur should he himself know being the most dangerous layer in his own Spiral Dynamics of his Integral Theory.

[@dirtypure2023]

Correct.

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

Not possible, KW deals with ideas and theories from a fifty thousand foot altitude. He doesn't actually live in the real world with real people problems

[@Nivexity]

@@radiantsilvergun8479 I would regard David as of similar detriment to Wilbur of how their views can be so separated from reality by not being active in the culture war and ideological frontlines. Their very comfort is predicated upon people like Peterson, willing to take a conservative stand in the face of radical leftism. I think sometimes, the most important solution is not sitting back trying to understand, but making active commitments to solving problems with an intellectual mind than leaving it to everyone else while pondering questions about reality.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Incorrect. Peterson will just create more more war, he will solve nothing. Peterson is giving up responsibility to be a synthesizer and instead has just become a boring conservative pundit. This is weakness.

[@Nivexity]

@@martinzarathustra8604 I don't believe you actually said anything productive, useless accusations with no rational or reasonable basis isn't something I'd expect from a RW viewer, are you new to enlightenment?

[@meganmueller]

It's so refreshing to hear Ken's view on this. Sometimes I feel alone in assessing the cultural landscape. So many fans of these people who regressed defend that move, and for me it's just a sad thing. I wanted to see JBP make the move into the integral stage, and to see him slide back into reactionary ways of being is not at all a good thing. Especially as a trans person, it's even more sad for me. He's become extremely hostile to trans people now, where before I could have passed it off as healthy criticism.

[@Gawillamon]

Well if if it's anything like my perspective, it's because we've had lots of time at this point to think about this whole trans debacle and come to the conclusion that it's all just a ridiculous, nonsensical and pointless issue completely surrounding nothing but semantics, words, terms, and definitions.

[@meganmueller]

@@Gawillamon I fully agree. The bathroom thing is a good example I use. Trans people have been using washrooms forever without issue. Suddenly, now politicians decide they need to mandate something that was working just fine. The worst part is that we individually made the choice of what washroom to use based on how we blended in. By mandating that choice, we’re forced into washrooms where we stand out. It’s making a mess out of a non thing.

[@houseofcharm4751]

@@meganmuellerwow... so what issues do you have with Dr Peterson then? I am genuinely curious. What do you think is missing from his arguments? Thanks

[@meganmueller]

@@houseofcharm4751 his views on trans existence are completely absurd. He thinks trans people confuse masculine and feminine personality differences for gender. In fact, masculine and feminine personality traits and gender identity are distinct qualities of self. As a psychologist, the fact he doesn’t understand this is mindblowing.

[@G.GordonMidi]

@@meganmueller he seemed pretty anti trans since he became famous though. His whole uproar over people wanting to use different pronouns was literally what made him famous in the first place. He packaged his regressive, reactionary beliefs in a way that was pounced on by a lot of people looking for meaning. I think he is repugnant. I truly don’t understand why people love him so much. Yeah, he says some positive things about how to act/live but most of the good insights are extremely shallow and trite.

[@sopidf]

How many of you feel that Ken Wilber is basically repeating 3 simple statements over and over again: 1. Rubin, Peterson, Sowell are examples intellectuals that regressed to the center / right 2. we have culture wars, that's a problem 3. we need more people with integral mind sets I feel like i am falling asleep hearing these three points again and again and again. EDIT. Ok, at least for the first 40 minutes :D

[@sopidf]

WTF? Can anyone explain what this is? Is it just a very expensive number scam?

[@samn8309]

I've started using Twitter and Jordan posts a lot. I just know that it isn't healthy and hope he doesn't lose it.

[@shaunhermans]

I love you Ken, please keep making public your commentary on what's unfolding

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

I watched the video again. I am still bothered by the idea that it is a let down or disappointment to not reach 2nd tier thinking. There is still much work to be done by us simple folk down here at the lower levels. There is still much focused art and beauty to be expressed in red, amber, orange and green, as well as level to level healing. Damaged holons need repair, Amber immorality and be addressed with better morality. Orange poor rational thinking, can be improved with better logically thinking. Green aperspectival madness and be addressed by embodying each specific culture and truth one at a time. An AQAL 4 quadrant approach is not always needed or appropriate. I appreciate what the turquoise thinkers are trying to do, by integrating the lower levels and even bringing them to a more creative synthesis. However, we as adults are free to not join the second tier. There can be a arrogant elitism about the 2nd tier. I would also argue that knowing integral language does not indicate that one has a genuine 2nd tier value system. In KW's defense, he has always said it is an elitism that all are invited to. I have no idea what is beyond Turquoise, I suppose they will say it is the ground being of all value systems arising from deep emptiness moment by moment. Sounds beautiful, and also like five thousand hours of meditation, when you have children to attend to and help them navigate their early stage by stage growth and development.

[@stephenvankleeck4801]

The “let down” is explicitly defined as the fact that .5% have progressed through Green where Wilbur expected much more progress. He’s saying nothing about moving the whole planet into T2 vMemes.

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

@@stephenvankleeck4801 I disagree, the "let down" was specific to JP the individual with additional disappoint at the low percentage of the general population. To me this is still very unreasonable of KW, he has been very silent for several years. During this time, a champion of integral theory would have been very welcome in the public sphere. This could have pushed up the percentage up to 2nd tier in the general population. In his general absence, very unfortunately, all there is, is Integral Life Dottt Commmm (Sorrry, trying to avvoid gooogle algoorithimmm), who are the very embodiment of healthy green, but speak integral language, and inspire no one (Including the ones interviewed by Rebel Wisdom) I still say, if KW and the integral crowd want more people at 2nd tier, they are going have to get over their own personal green is best bias, get help JP clear out the damaged green currently holding everyone back.

[@stephenvankleeck4801]

@@radiantsilvergun8479 That’s not how upward movement works… there isn’t a T2 champion, per se, that can directly move consciousness up a vMeme. The only thing close to that can happen by people at the current predominant vMeme who model the expansion by becoming it. Even so, we are talking about gradual shifts becoming possible. “The disappointment” isn’t that JP didn’t move some great percentage but that he looked like he was moving into a deeper integral form and that he has certainly collapsed into something more run-of-the-mill conservative. What happened with JP is a reflection of a generally stalling towards T2 reflected by the percentages Wilbur mentions. We still don’t have a general understanding on how to embrace, included, and transcend Green quite yet.

[@radiantsilvergun8479]

@@stephenvankleeck4801 Perhaps champion is not the right word. KW has always said that the best was to level up was mediation. I think if an articulate person embodying Integral values were to enter the public discussion, promoting meditation, this could have a significant impact. Especially among the intellectual alternative media types, such as being on the Joe Rogan show. But forget even that. If someone could articulate to the public, the pre trans fallacy, that alone could reduce the friction in society. What is "vMeme"? I don't like the idea the JP being described as a run of the mill conservative. He is a brilliant orange level rational thinker and very effective for the stage a lot of people are at. I would argue that by conserving healthy orange, he is also providing a protective shielding effect to below orange, including amber and red from the pathologic effects of damaged green filtering down and corrupting the entire spiral.

[@stephenvankleeck4801]

@@radiantsilvergun8479 You’re essentially defining “Spiral Wizardry” and it’s incredibly complicated and nuanced to pull off successfully. The consciousness of the level, or a significant subset, has to be ready for this to take place and modeling the upwards/outward movement is one of the most effective transitory functions. Again, the disappointment here is that JP was moving in a direction that seemed to be able to articulate nuance across Red, Orange, and Green vMemes (Beck and Cowan’s term for level of development) but has seemingly collapsed back down/in, joined Dailywire, and positioned himself firmly in the Right speaking out against the Left which is decidedly not Integral and a position that is quite saturated as is. The idea that there is (or needs to be) a “protective shielding” from “corrupted Green” is very strange and doesn’t seem to correspond with Spiral Dynamics or Integral Theory.

[@rumination2399]

I haven't even started this yet but I can tell it will be good. I've been deeply saddened to see him fall into his own cult of personality.

[@philiphodgesnz]

He’s always been combative - I’m enjoying seeing him on good form and throwing himself into the fray. Long may it continue. I don’t hear anyone else saying the mutilation of children is wrong!

[@TheAlibabatree]

Lol plenty of people say that… in fact, the vast majority say and believe that.

[@denisehay8895]

well said

[@alexandrasobrino9885]

Absolutely! JP is very brave. It is so easy to criticize, but who is talking about the hard truths of how the Powers that Be are brainwashing people to comply to the most incredible atrocities

[@shaunhermans]

David your the best person to interview/converse publicly with Ken. Please make this a regular thing

[@toreschanke4086]

I hate what have happened to our culture during the last decade or two, particularly in the 2 last years,!

[@ribbrascal1065]

It's a nightmare of cringe, creepy and evil.

[@skoki121]

This wig story is nutty. Is this guy 100 years old or 50? Why does a Zen Buddhist care about appearance?

[@trombone7]

It's important to note that when people like Peterson and Dave Rubin have big followings, they are more likely to only espouse opinions which will resonate with most of their audience. They may not even know they are doing it. So when Peterson and Rubin explore ideas, either in discussion, or when reflecting alone, they may implicitly realize they need to drop back down 2 levels ( past Reason to Religiosity ) to capture as much support as possible.

[@throwacnt7603]

Every day I look for the gurus, the integrated, the illuminated and I am left disappointed. Today is not different.