What Happened to the Market in PoE 2?

[@GhazzyTV]

If you've any questions, I'm LIVE on Twitch www.twitch.tv/ghazzytv

[@jinz0]

wait so if divine orbs are useless and will keep inflating, they will go down in value compared to Exalts, so its better to keep exalts now

[@hawaiicarl9854]

I have so many rmt ads on my KZbin feed

[@drogonmax8781]

Mirror is 2997 dollars on some sites outside of POE thats what happened!

[@FishingZebra]

Time for guys to learn trading... You have all that gold sitting in your inventory my dude, time to use it. I found this and have been making bank. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZqlc4WwesijpZI

[@AuntJoey]

You're sitting here talking about rarity, but I'm noticing you're using frost mage skeles with eye of winter to boost their crit... I never thought of doing that. I'm going to try it when I play my witch again.

[@Uelibertiga]

"GGG has reintroduced x problem they already solved into poE2 for some odd reason." My main concern with GGGs design atm.

[@TheOctaviusLee]

Literally, I don't understand why you had a perfectly working game and could just import all the best things that work and then add some new shit, instead you just shuffled everything around and made the game insanely messed up for no actual reason. Like you already know that Sanctum isn't for everyone, you've tested it, you had people complain that certain builds can't do Sanctum because of being melee, etc. and now it's mandatory for Ascendancy points? Sheezus.

[@SquidlyFishBeans]

My biggest issue is that they were adamant that Poe 2 was going to set itself apart from Poe 1 but somehow they landed on an endgame that is basically Poe 1 but more frustrating.. They had the ability to really mix it up but ultimately just added a very convoluted map and changed 6 attempts per map to 1. We don't talk about towers and citadels because ones boring and the other doesn't even exist

[@leamael00]

It's crazy isn't it? It's almost like they operated blind, without looking at the main game at all.

[@lexer1231]

Perosonaly i am amazed there is no crafting in POE2 we get the crafting bench in Act2 in POE1 if not mistaken and if we had a crafting bench with the prefix and sufix can not be changed(locked behind the Citadels in maps) Chaos Orbs wuld be amazing and thee problem will be allmost solved and than some Omen + Chaos orb crafting culd be realy nice and powerfull items wuld cost normal amounts of Div Orbs/Exalted orbs but now its just a Slot Machine Wo ever gets Lucky gets LUCKY 😕😕

[@dethsightgaming]

seems like they took a page from D4 in this regard. in a sense. D4 took features we had IN D3 and didn't put them in the 1.0 of D4 (looking at you, armory). idc if they are "coming with the next season" or not. they had to tear down almost the entirety of the gameplay aside from art and sound, since launch. that's horrendous for a game that is not in EA or beta. they don't get gold stars for fixing/redoing what SHOULDN'T needed it for years. GGG, don't stray too far down the dark D4bad trail. we know where it leads.

[@0re0n]

Worst thing is for casual players: there are still many good items that are worth 1-10 exalts but... no one is going to stop their map blasting to trade with you for 5 ex because with shit ton of magic find they are literally losing money by wasting time on you. So everyone just ignores your whispers and some even put even their "dump tabs" at 1 div.

[@Xsmith44]

That’s why you spam the send button until they block you

[@MyN0N4M3]

@@Xsmith44 No, that's why you dont try to reinvent the wheel. Player transaction issue has been solved for at least 15+ years by almost every major MMO. Relying on players going to third party websites and then grouping up to trade some item has never really worked. And if the idea is that an auction house defeats the purpose of playing a loot focussed ARPG, then delete player trading from the game entirely or allow only for a few minutes trading between ppl that are in the same map. But this halfa**ed system is just complete BS

[@DesmoxMyco]

​@@Xsmith44 I fully support this 🤣

[@MarkoLomovic]

@@MyN0N4M3 No thank you we like it just the way it is. If you do not like it you can play SSF and pretend that it is deleted from the game.

[@thegreatwhitegoat2882]

I put an emerald jewel in my stash tab last night. It had a 15% increase to quiver skills. I got over 40 messages in 2 min. I had it listed at 5 ex. So I knew it was obviously under priced. I got some information on pricing. Thanks to good people. It sold for 50 ex to lvl 80 pathfinder.

[@altromonte15]

I am mostly confused by Breach itself. The mob density looks identical to a poe1 breach, one breach has more mobs than 2 maps put together and it's such a visual nightmare your only realistic approach is screen-exploding it. it's such a clash with the rest of the game.

[@muhammedaskin1830]

agree about that. rutial feels same. im using gas arrow build and it cant clear full screen so im having problems especially with ritual very cramped area full of mobs, sometimes i cant even move. delirium feels much more enjoyable and doable. can expand a delirium to almost full map but die to a ritual. maybe some builds are not capable of doing every mechanic. if thats the case, i'll stick to delirium and trade the other items i need from other mechanics with distilled emotions. I would like to play every mechanic with same lvl of enjoyment tho.

[@itzjustkris7964]

Breach above tier 11 is impossible for minion builds unless your a 20 divine build

[@muhammedaskin1830]

@@altromonte15 quess i'll just make a screen clearing monk for farming high tier mechanics if it does not get nerfed. looks much easier to play also looks fun.

[@TheVoidwaker]

@@itzjustkris7964 Try spamming corpse explosion, it went for me from impossible to easy on t15 and I'm basically ssf

[@tomatoslav]

picking up warrior I thought poe2 will be slower and more tactical because the warrior skills are nerfed as shit with 1.5+ seconds wind up time, however mob design is exactly the same and once you get (with warrior) access to level 12+ skills and explode clear you realize, "oh, its just poe1, but _worse_"

[@ooVIDAR]

As a broke boy it's hard out there right now

[@duncanidaho5834]

And if you keep calling yourself "boy" and seeking sympathy in YT comments it will only get harder

[@Ilyak1986]

Which is a huge flaw in GGG's philosophy. This is an enormous problem in PoE1, and equally awful in PoE2. Last Epoch solved this already. GGG insists on 25 year old flawed philosophies from D2 instead.

[@Yadeehoo]

Play SSF bro and you'll have no one to compare your wealth to

[@rjvitello5464]

@@Yadeehoogood idea

[@Kniazz]

@@Ilyak1986 How did Last Epoch solve it, exactly? Just curious, if I should give LE a try.

[@chronocbgg]

Feel like you mixed up your words. If there is no use for divines, they don't "go up in price". The issue is there is an influx of exalted orbs with no use, so they are worth less (because as you said, they drop often). Since there are more and more exalts entering the market than divines at the previous ratio, it means that exalts are worth "less", meaning you need more of them for 1 divine

[@BaMnupKo]

yes, he confused/combined two economy phenomena, divines cost more ex because there is no ex sink, but because there is no div sink either, ppl just accumulate more div and become willing to spend more div on items, driving the price up, so players that have been accumulating wealth just buy and sell good items for increasing amount of divines, while the earning power of an average player stays the same, thus taking increasing amount of time to earn enough to buy said good item. It is however also counteracted by inflation of items in the economy, but that effect is not enough for the best items usually

[@matheusmterra]

@@chronocbgg you are partially correct on the account of Exalted Orbs lowering on value as time goes on and the market gets more of it. What you fail to realize is something that happens in real world economics. Exalts at least have a sink, so their number on the market doesn't increase out of control, because people using Exalted Orbs are taking that currency off the market for good and keeping it in check. With Divines on the other hand, no one is using them. Each Divine Orb that drops for any person anywhere outside of SSF is one more Divine Orb that enters the market, and they aren't leaving the market anymore, it will just keep in circulation without a sink to use them. By giving Divine Orbs a proper sink, preferably one that is valuable, it makes it so Divine Orbs retain their original value and, as such, don't make them the standard for trading anymore for any item, since they are too valuable to be traded for an item that isn't anything short of perfect. Comparing with real world again, Exalted Orbs are Dollars and Divine Orbs is Gold. Dollars go in and out of circulation, their price is stable(ish, I know that the USA are facing an inflation crisis at the moment, but let's ignore that for a moment), more get printed in and out of circulation and as such it's relative value remains stable; gold on the other hand is much rarer, once it enters circulation it seldom leaves, since there aren't any widespread use for gold, and so the USA regularly buys Gold with their Dollars to take some gold out of circulation and keep the price stable, which means the government artificially creates a Gold Sink in real world, and anyone using Gold for transactions in the real world only do so when it is absolutely necessary. That is the ideal situation for any video game economy as well. Your most valuable currency needs to have a very valuable sink for them to be used and taken out of the market, otherwise they become too common inside the market and pushes out all other currency available, as a consequence those who can't farm are pushed into RMT to participate in the economy. That's how RMT gets out of control in every online game.

[@robertjuh]

Exactly this! Exalts need a better sink, divines need higher drop rate

[@DDpokerr]

Yes this is EXACTLY right. It’s the same for Houses in the US. Your house is NOT worth 1.5mm. It’s a 3 bedroom in the middle of Anacrime. Your house is worth much less however the value of the dollar went down, so you need more of those dollars to buy a house. Hence inflated house prices.

[@sir_quirkus7206]

No, the issue is no lifers. The currency is starting tho evolve around the people who have played 17+ hours everyday since release of ea. It’s funny how all this other stuff gets thrown around as the “problem” but the real problem are these minority of players that never sleep eat or do anything other than play video game

[@Midaspl]

I would also add that since most uniques are so underpowered, there's not many cases where actually using a divine would be more profitable than buying a better rolled unique.

[@Danny-zw7sw]

Yep I think this is the main issue with them not being used. So many trash uniques, I really hate this system of some are used for levelling, like I am level 80 dropping uniques to go on a lv 16 character alt????

[@Midaspl]

@@Danny-zw7sw Or even worse - you're level 80, dropping leveling uniques for level 72, cause the skill on weapons scales their required level up, so they stop being viable as leveling uniques xD

[@FocusedApathy]

Would add to that divines are realistically worthless in function and their "value" is a holdover from PoE 1. Vaal orbs are better used on uniques to gamble the stat increase roll which divines it first

[@Yadeehoo]

@@Danny-zw7sw The reason they aren't being used is the same as poe1. It's top buying currency so if there is a trade market, it's better spent buying stuff. If you play SSF tho, the drops are perfectly balanced, which I think it great.

[@notorious70]

@@FocusedApathyclearly u havent been near the top yet, nor have u ever crafted real gg gear

[@unholyarthur1]

No alteration, no scouring, no chaos spam. Crafting(ish) is dead. No real currency sink. Rarity is broken and the elites farming at x9999999 times efficiency as average player = broken economy.

[@sirrubbers5797]

We dont need to add all the currwncy back. Scours alone would fix all this

[@c-tothefourth4879]

There’s no crafting

[@AlucardNoir]

@@sirrubbers5797 Crafting is gambling. Scours wouldn't fix that, they'd just result in people optimizing the fun out of the game. If you ever got a 5 link by clinking several hundred times on an item, or used several thousand alteration to get the mod you want you'd know on a flask you know what I mean. what do scours solve other than adding yet another resource you're expected to spam moronically four hours on end in place of actually playing the game. This is why Lost epoch got it right. If you must have crafting limit the amount of time people can spend on it. Force people to play the game with suboptimal gear rather than waste hours trying to craft BIS gear.

[@Brenblaze100]

@@AlucardNoir They solve the issue of base items not being so rare? So instead of needing an insane amount of currency AND base items, you'd just need an insane amount of currency. And optimizing the fun out of the game? Huh? Thats on you, not other people. Literally any improvement from the current game could be seen as optimizing the fun out, that is pretty ridiculous. You CHOOOSE to use those mechanics for hours on end, now we have no choice whatsoever, and you somehow think thats better because you dont have the ability to manage your own time?

[@soulstealer5625]

@@AlucardNoir Are you high? Scouring offers the same utility as picking a base off the ground except you spend it there and then as opposed to hunting bases. Its the same system, just more inconvient.

[@Drager00]

Honestly Omens are pretty much the entry to what I'd consider real crafting. Yet the omens are insanely rare and tied to ritual. Ritual needs to be tied to something else and omens added into the general drop pool imo. A sink for Divine orbs would be nice. Hell even for their intended use, making 3 Omens that linked to divine orbs 1) rerolls implicit 2) rerolls prefix 3) rerolls suffix. And make the divine Omen insanely common such that using a Divine orb + the omen is a near negligible difference and we'd have more of a sink since at least targeted range rerolls are better.

[@canary2875]

They are insanely priced too

[@mewni2956]

@@canary2875 As they should be, its insanely rare after all. More common = Cheaper.

[@DFECTIVE_]

@@mewni2956 They should be more common tho lol, thats the crafting of the game. 7d for a reroll like wtf is this?

[@KotsaPL]

Omens arent that rare, just only 1% players are farming T15 maps and got ritual tree unlocked. No more casuals farming T1 white maps for essences anymore like in POE1 Everything is locked behind dificualty in POE2 no more easy maps farm so everything got high value and is harder to obtain much less peoplo can reach that content yet

[@mattb6646]

​@@KotsaPL and that'd a problem, not everyone is going to be top players and if lower level players can't reasonably have anything good to farm it makes it much harder for them progress at a decent pace. Same issues they've had in poe for a long time but they put in low level farming strats so there was atleast an avenue for lower level players to grind and reliably make currency to eventually get an upgrade

[@LukeK9]

Can't wait for the inevitable "rarity is causing unforeseen issues in the economy so we are trippling the spirit cost of minions to compensate".

[@GregorioRicouz]

xd

[@nicobay4512]

Lmao

[@LifeVsTom]

Lol just my luck. I'll be running the doggo and 2 clerics only to help me through the dark times.

[@dingostar2620]

hahaha 🤣

[@deadisntAlice]

Tbh if they come back and hit minions again I’m done with the game lol. My map clear is already snails pace slow compared to a ton of other builds.

[@Derpfriar]

For the average Joe, farming currency and just buying the item is far less hassle than working with the crafting system

[@DiogoVKersting]

You're right, but for the wrong reason. If Divine orbs are "mined" but never "consumed", that increases the supply and is inflationary (i.e. relative value of divine orbs goes down). The real reason the price of divine orbs goes up, is that the supply of every other currency goes up way faster. That is, even after after you consider the use/consumption of lower grade currency, their relative availability ends up being way higher than that of Divines. However, there is something that makes the situation even worse. When the market decides a commodity (in this case Divine), is not just useful as as trading medium (what you use in transactions), but also as a "store of value" (akin to a savings account), that creates demand for the commodity for that purpose. That is, the currency being hoarded is not circulating, which in effect is deflationary (relative value of divine goes up).

[@frost94100]

That's exactly what is happening. Common currencies are overlooted, especially everyone knows that MF is meta now, BUT there is no incentive to use them in crafting since it stucks, so there is no sink/removal of the said currencies, and they just become so common AND useless that they are losing value. The irony is that regal orb and exalt orb are far more useful than divine, not for crafting but to improve waystones which is a real use case. While at the same time, the USELESS divine orb, is very rare, and despite being useless, it is saw as a store of value item like gold or bitcoin which are deflationary by nature. And the more people think that, the more demand there is, the more people "owning" the market price them high, the more they increase in value. And since people just buy it for holding them, the currency is not circulating. That's crazy. It would not be a problem is this would not impact the price of items on the trading site, but it is. Since everyone want divines and loot of exalts, people overprice items in exalts or in divine. And since trading is the only way to get geared in this game, most players lose the only source of gear, then stop playing (my case)

[@vincentsels]

Do you see a solution?

[@frost94100]

@@vincentsels Not really, because each seconds we are talking high end players "abusing" the system stack more and more currencies and good items. So even if you change the drop rate, they accumulated SO MUCH wealth they are the hyper rich and will keep dominating the market. Changing drop rate drastically, making currency worth less would kill the trading BUT everyone could enjoy maximum currency to experiment as GGG told us. But we can't experiment because we loot 1 currency per year and when you use it the item is crap. So either they change drop rate, making currencies less rare and lose in value (but hyperinflation will be even worst) BUT this would allow players to have so much currencies they can experiment (because it's the goal of early access) and would kill the botters and RMTers. I would also enhance drop rate of GOOD items with linked good affix (physical damage + melee skills on every two hand mace etc) so people have so much good items "easily enough" to experiments and have fun. Trading would be dead, but it would kill RMTers and boters. But the second problem would be the game being too easy. But I think EA should be used for pushing the game limits and try all combinations for the dev to balance it, so I think it's the best solution. And the other thing would be doing nothing and let the situation rot slowly until end of EA. Last solution, would be a "wipe", creating a new EA league with new drop rates from start and rarity find tweaks. But the problem is many players would not like to AGAIN level up a character because it's so long and boring to level up characters. So there is no good solution. There is maybe more I didn't think of, but every solution at this point is a trade-off : you will always have a negative outcome. Which negative outcome is the best ? I don't know. I think the best is to tune drop rate : FAR more currency, like 10 of each on each maps minimum, and making loot BETTER (forcing good affixes to spawn together on yellow/magic item drop) then you can improve MORE crafts because you have more currencies, and more craft will be viable because bases will be already very good from start. This would allow everyone to enjoy and have fun but loosing difficulty. Maybe they should also increase difficulty after doing that.

[@WeFailAtMw2]

wow, a person that actually understand markets

[@HD3ternity]

Yeah there are alot of comments out there with confusing ideas, like "we need a divine sink" - smh. The reason this kinda works in POE1 is the combination of deterministic crafting and metacrafts, because this roughly ties the power of an (rare) item to a set amount of divines. Sure you need essences and some other stuff but generally you can say hey i got 20 div and with that i can expect to craft an 700dps bow or smth like that.

[@Tibasu]

I agree with this take. I don't notice a MASSIVE difference that POE CC's seem to think rarity makes, but it is a a lot more noticeable when I open a breach and get way more rares than the whole map normally have. The Exalt sink exists. You can even save some currency by buying cheaper items and gambling on an exalt, especially for jewels. But no Divine sink. I think if Vaal Orbs didn't Divine the item before increasing/decreasing the mods, that would be one step towards a Divine Sink. Right now people don't even divine their high tier uniques because it'll randomize the rolls when you Vaal Orb anyways.

[@altromonte15]

vaal orbs not bricking uniques is a really, really strange change. there is almost no drawback now for vaaling all of them and that doesn't seem right.

[@Tibasu]

@@altromonte15 Not bricking uniques also means the market is more flooded with them too, which is a different economical impact to discuss. It somewhat still exists, since you can decrease the mod values below base, but it just makes worse versions of them instead of removing them from the market.

[@BaMnupKo]

divine sink would only increase the cost of divines though?

[@Tsume524]

@@altromonte15 well they divine uniques b4 corrupt in one of outcomes and also they can break item by making 1 stat up to 22% weaker.

[@MrEpic86]

​@@altromonte15 what do you mean? Every unique I've used a vaal orb on has got dramatically worse

[@jspsj0]

It's 94 ex for 1 div now

[@sirrubbers5797]

@@jspsj0 fk i sold 2 div last night for 79 ex 🤡

[@magnus2613]

100 rn

[@tinkmaster1054]

Guess I should have waited another day to trade my crazy lucky campaign divine drop... I got 74ex for it lol

[@dislikeme1626]

104 rn

[@anlkuyucu6825]

​@@tinkmaster1054I feel the same but prices also went up probably. So if you were able to buy what you need. You didn't lose anything. Some items I was able to buy for like 1 exalted about a week ago go for 1 divine right now. It's crazy.

[@CoBrhilot]

Only high end and rich ppl can craft properly, the rest of us is just gambling and praying for rng

[@a.f.331]

just roleplay to be rich.

[@dreadheaddavy]

What crafting method you referring to? People say this every POE1 league, yet Ghazzy clearly even says high end crafting doesn't exist.

[@Gabe-hk3tt]

Just like real life

[@Dralisz]

@@dreadheaddavy low lvl crafting also doesn't exist, you pretty much just put it on something, becomes an other trash 99% of the time then you sell it to the vendor , you don't have hundreds of currencies every hour to craft anything useful

[@kyotheman69]

those rich people have far to much time to play, people need to work have families its pretty hard to get those cool loot, you know

[@CouchGladiator]

It’s hard to imagine how new and casual players will be able to afford the gear needed for endgame bosses and T15-16 maps. When I hit endgame, I was able to buy most of my gear with just a few Exalted Orbs, but now, some of those same pieces are 10-50 Divines! This price jump makes it nearly impossible for most players to keep up, especially those who aren't willing or able to put in hours to farm Divines. The grind to get even halfway decent gear is simply not worth the time and effort required. This will drive a large portion of the player base to the black market to avoid the insane grind. Casual players who don’t have the time to farm or invest in this level of effort will be hit the hardest. The whole economy is quickly becoming unfriendly to newcomers, and without significant changes, it’s hard to see how the game will remain accessible to anyone who isn’t willing to spend huge amounts of time or money.

[@frost94100]

Yeah the EA league is already doomed btw. I made the exact same observation as you. I could gear myself 2 weeks ago when I reached maps. I spend ALL my savings in exalts, like less than 90 exalts for my whole gear (full 75% elemental resistance and 75% chaos, lot of HP, life leeches etc). Now, just my weapon is worth 4-6 divines depending on the day. My whole gear worth a lot of divines. And it's been 2 weeks I can't get ANY upgrade since my only loots are trade because loots and crafting sucks. So I stopped playing. I finished T15 maps, and I don't want to farm hours to find citadels for end boss, and don't want to spend exalts to buy the key. So I finished the game, GG GGG.

[@eldenking2098]

@@frost94100 Same boat, I have a lv 91 minion build and can clear t18s no problem but i have no magic find or rarity boosters so i dont get any drops, its not fun to clear end game stuff with ease but never get any drops... BORING GAME!

[@lykien0923]

so true. I hope when they get back (ggg) just make god tier items accessible for anyone. At least it will restore them some player base.

[@lWhoCaresl]

Same here. Geared up when entered the maps for like 70-80 ex, then wanted to upgrade at lvl 80 and saw everything in divs(70-80 exs), somehow farmed for that and now I sit and watch that to upgrade further its like 40+ divs for any better bow and the same goes for quiver . Meanwhile my income almost stays the same whatever I do x)

[@Kaldzi1993]

Started clearing Maps t15-16, got bow for 5 divs with 440+ dps, got some rarity gear and bonking Maps for 2-4 hours per Day. What are you guys even talking about that Casual cant keep up? xDD

[@RetroRechargeGames]

Currency sinks are 100% needed, especially for divines. I hope we get a little more to crafting as time goes on. I hate that it's basically just a gamble at this point. Isn't fun

[@mrdisem]

for me it's fun.

[@siem87a]

You are mistaken sir, we need currency sink more for exalts. If you give more utility for divines they are gonna be more valuable. Or just increase divines drop rate...

[@Yadeehoo]

@@siem87a I'm in SSF and exalts get sunk really easy for me.

[@siem87a]

@@Yadeehoo Yeah but the problem is in trade not in SSF

[@phrknpanda3768]

@@siem87a that minus the raise in dropprate. and maybe harder rarity diminishing returns.

[@BeazyFaSho]

Its so weird. Items go from 1ex to 10ex, then BOOM 1 DIV!

[@WutherWave-qc3ud]

😂 seeing bad itemsfor a div is wild

[@rekrn12345]

You aren't using the site right. Set price to exalted and put a cap of like 40ex. You will now see hundreds of items for your search

[@implodingfruitz8093]

The site has divines valued at about 10 ex from poe1 so if you set your filter to exalts only you will see the 11ex+ trades

[@rekrn12345]

@@implodingfruitz8093 Also important to point out the site is not currently able to st prices in fractions of a currency.

[@Mesoz]

Need to set price to exalts and add a cap, will see plenty of items you are looking for are more correct prices. Site has divs valued incorrectly right now, so there are def people listing items for 1div that are only worth like 10-40ex.

[@denizgur]

Thank you for explaining the main issue of trading and divs! Every item on the market(low price sorting): 1ex (seller does not answer), 1ex (seller does not answer), 1div, 2 div, 10 div. why not play ssf at this point?

[@Takkcinema]

An ever growing supply of divine orbs is a deflationary pressure, not an inflationary one. They’re “worthless”, so they’re less valued. I thought the divine orbs sink driving the price increase is that the only “crafting” that’s profitable is people buying chase uniques, divining them to perfection, and the vaaling them for the bonus stats chance So divine orbs are actually flying off the market for this purpose, driving the price up. Stockpiling divines would lead to a price crash.

[@brofst]

Yeah exactly, the reasons feel wrong

[@TheExplodingCore]

Vaal bonus stat roll also divines the items so you'd be wasting divines if you were to do this.

[@thunderingice667]

It could explain increased prices on items, ie rich buyers are willing to pay more and make the lower-priced items vanish, shifting prices up. I agree it doesn’t explain why exalts are becoming worth less compared to divines. It should be the other way, unless exalts are being found and grabbed much more often than divines.

[@Sypher-NL]

@@TheExplodingCore yup this! he dsnt know omegalol

[@Sypher-NL]

vaal orb divines the item before corrupting it. i wld never use a divine before a vaal orb ever.

[@ydoumus]

To be fair, Ghazzy; if us minion users had minions with actual, proper, working AI, we'd probably be seeing way more divines as well (because we wouldn't lose out on so many monsters during breaches).

[@__-bk6mm]

The ai is fine if you use command

[@gampie13]

@@__-bk6mm no it's not, even the command bugs out depending on which minions turn it is to use their command skill, it will juggle trying to use the command skill, and constantly forget that the exact minions turn to use the skill is out of line of sight and bug out, a small pebble on the ground is enough to test this buggy interaction

[@rekrn12345]

Breaches aren't that crazy.

[@therealtb404-vi7nt]

​@@__-bk6mmthe AI is 100% not fine with commands. Especially, if you're using the commands to navigate them short distances.

[@itzjustkris7964]

I’m a minion witch ….how do you do breaches with minions? Low tier maps it’s easy but tier 11 (which is the tier needed for splinters) is basically suicide I’ve tried arsonists reavers frost mages archers etc my resistances are maxed gems are qualitied etc I’ve tried youtube builds but it still doesn’t seem possible …then there’s other classes clicking one button and half the screen dies

[@doglos6940]

the issue with the market is that everything is up to the roof and 70% of the players base r BROKE , so the majority of players requesting multi divs for trash items where NOBODY can afford these prices CUS WE R FUCKING BROKE.

[@ThePCeristas]

If there was a divine sink, divines would have less supply and more demand, therefore the price would go up, not down.

[@no_SKape]

thats the point! the rich need a way the spent their divines, so the value of all currencys go up. its just like real inflation and the currencys are bills. rn the 100d bills sink in value, so every other bill is less worth too, but that doesnt mean u get more of it suddenly! u always get the same amount while the value lessens. only the rich can afford sht and thats where we're at rn

[@TheSilverwing999]

Yep not sure why people are calling for a sink

[@Camsauce87]

You're right, but I think his argument is an argument of inflation. A small group of players are pretty much printing divine orbs and hoarding them, so the items they sell to each other are going up in price to like 10 divine orbs from 1 divine orb a week or so ago. Players who cant farm divs want these items too so they can get in on the farming and print their own divines so they're willing to pay out the ass with the currency that they do have access to, which is exalteds. Players likely arent really using exalted orbs to craft since they want to buy gear so badly with them, so the supply of exalteds is probably growing rapidly as well, but more widespread, so you end up with insane pricing inflation. The top players just want to hold divines and are also the ones generating them, so the demand is still on the divines since it can be subject to gatekeeping the endgame. They're like diamonds for example irl. Forced scarcity for the general population can cause something that is worthless to go for insane prices if the people controlling the supply can make you need what they have access to. For example, if endgame players suddenly needed divs for crafting, initially they would sell stuff at high prices until most of the divs were used up, then suddenly when 99% of them are used up, a player might get a good drop and not be able to sell it for 10 divines anymore because nobody has 10 divines to give up for one item, especially since they might be more useful in crafting instead at this rate. Now he's listing it for 1 or 2 divines. Then suddenly a newer player who gets lucky and a divine drops can afford to buy this item in this economy instead of still being 9 short and likely never getting the gear they want. They also won't sell their divines for 100 exalteds because nobody has 100 exalteds and their "need" for them will force them to sell at a more reasonable price instead of a "fuck you" price.

[@rekrn12345]

Divine orbs do get used but only on rare boss uniques.

[@shawnchia3611]

yeah we dont need no divine sink.. divines are already costly as it is.. if there are lesser in the market, it will instantly shoot up to 100+ exalts. What we need is an exalt sink, thats all

[@JoshuaIsTheMessiah]

Literally KZbin poe2 and rmt ads are the number 1 video

[@Lolatyou332]

Yep.. needs to be some kind of legal consequences for cheating / RMT.

[@tomogburn2462]

If they nerf MF, RMTers are just gonna make that much more money. If they dont nerf MF, everyone after 60 or so hours into the game will be pulling in 20+ Divs a day and wont give a damn about spending them all rolling on gear because theyre just get more Divs the next day.

[@MrTmac2023]

the game released on dec 6th. it is crazy to me, that players think rmt can have that big of an impact, that fast, with the devs saying nothing...... rmt takes years to have real impact..... have yall ever played mmorpgs or games with player to player trading? o.0

[@Flakzor123]

The lack of a currencysink for divs should push the price down not up. RMT and marketmanipulation are the likely reasons.

[@natas6941]

No because the people that have them all are staging the market to meet their closed circle pricing

[@Flakzor123]

@natas6941 which is a textbook definition of "market manipulation". I guess they want to inflate the value of their div stockpile then trade for mirrors before crashing the market.

[@zelektic1]

No guys. The problem its the mafia bot team. They do this on every game. The control the prices.

[@alecantropo98]

This. I'm happy to see Ghazzy has the balls to talk about rmt, he knows it's the Korean bots who generate this inflation farming exalts with one button builds stacking rarity . Since all those thousands of exalts have no practical use aside from slamming, prices will continue going up

[@StevieWonder9919]

I don't understand how poeple actually still give value to divine orbs. Shouldnt it crash? imo it should be same value as augmented orbs, since there is no use for them. Their only value is in their scarcity. But when they will no longer be scarce since they don't disappear how can they still hold value?

[@BaMnupKo]

they are still almost the most scarse currency in the game

[@hazzua]

they are use for top end item like mirror tier rare or really rare unique, just 99.9% of people never use them but they are use and still valuable

[@TheSilverwing999]

Because people are using them as investment. It's like people investing in gold irl or bitcoin. They don't need to hold any intrinsic value themselves

[@rekrn12345]

They are extremely rare. Their relative price makes sense.

[@phrknpanda3768]

@@rekrn12345 ok then why is the annul worth so much less while they drop even rarer? its not rlly used so the price is low.

[@udntknw001]

Technically divine orbs drop so much in value that you have to have more of them to buy a particular item, that's true. But it also means that finding any other kind of item in POE2 will also sell for more divine orbs.

[@7zim7zum]

The AI answers in search engines like Brave often suggest using rmt services if you search where uniques can drop.

[@Amardarial]

The biggest actual issue with the economy is the Trade Site hasn't been fully updated, so many items can't be searched, it shows Divines as cheaper then exalts, so many items are showing as 1-2div when they are actually 4-5exalts.

[@ravecsucks6192]

Trade filter for exalts

[@ejkej2408]

First time in poe :). Say thanks to pricefixers and scamers.. To half solve this problem just set search to show buyout only with currency you choose(exalts etc.).

[@rekrn12345]

You aren't using the site right. Change price to exalted instead of relative.

[@bart_fox_hero2863]

Yeah divine orbs have skyrocketed. I started buying them every time i can afford one, they’ve gone up like 50% in two days….

[@Syphirioth]

That happens when alot of people got robbed and have no more divines.

[@ShadyHarbinger666]

You explained all the reasons for the problem the best way without being a PoE shill and denying the problems or protecting GGG/PoE.

[@Konung82]

thats not how it works. if there is no sink, divine will continue to drop in value, but we have other currencies in a game, so i think golden standart will change soon, maybe to chance orb or even to perfect jeweller, very used currencies and rare at a same time... ppl selling in divines are goingn just by inertia, and used to it in poe1

[@mikaellarsson135]

This might lso be what they are testing the noforced high tier sink approach for , to see what it does to the economy over time.

[@originallizzah]

I miss when Exalts were the end-all-be-all trade currency. As the husband and I play thru PoE 2, when Exalts drop we say "Look, a C!" and if we get a Divine, "We got an Ex!". You can probably guess around when we quit PoE 1 by those statements alone... 🙃. Making Divines the "top currency" was just weird and blah and took away years and years of PoE tradition (as well as gutting every single build I played leading up to that league, I didn't like it - it was $h*t!). I still think of all the peoples' Exalt tattoos and that first livestream where they said "Nah, It's Divines you want now!".

[@Brahlam]

I hate the market. I dislike in person trading in Warframe, but here I absolutely hate it. Since in Warframe at least it is fully clear what an item is worth. In PoE that is way more complicated, and its way easier to charge to little or get charged to much... also, I dont want to chat or interact with Randos... hope they add item trading via Auction house, and not this outside website garbage.

[@matheusmterra]

I think the approach on how to think about the effect of RMT reversed. This effect of basically Inflation happening to the market make it so players who can't farm for ungodly amount of hours who can't even get a Rarity gear set on a character strong enough to do the farming of Divine Orbs feel more incentivized to drop real money to buy Divine Orbs to participate in the market, so it's reversed. It's not that RMT increases the inflation, the RMT grows when there's inflation to take advantage of the situation, because essentially al the divine orbs farmed by the bots and RMT websites are basically off the market, they aren't increasing inflation, but when RMT becomes the only way some players feel that they can acquire Divine Orbs in order to participate in the market, THEN is when those Divine Orbs enter the market and make the issue worse. They are a compounding effect that relies on the base issue you outlined, there's no sink for Divine Orbs in the game, so the inflation will keep going rampant.

[@alecantropo98]

So true. I fear not many realize that the people botting are not stupid. They study the market and adopt the best strategies to get people to rmt on their platforms

[@erutherford]

IMHO Ghazzy is right that without STRONG currency sinks [rerolling T17s in PoE1, meta mod crafting with the bench, ...] then eventually there can be a problem. Another problem though is that there is an extreme imbalance in the ease of which some builds are able to invest in magic find without undo impacts. Until all of the problems are fixed the economy will spiral out of control as opposed to more-or-less finding a place of balance.

[@koopk1]

The biggest exalt sink is maps(waystones) specifically The meta Strat where you trans aug regal to get 3 mods, then 2-3 ex to get to 3 prefix and then Vaal. Getting good (2 prefix) t16 waystones is pretty hard, like 1 in 5 corruptions is a t16 and then it’s maybe like 1 in 10 corrupted maps that are proper “juice”. Alternately you can instill very good prefix maps with increased rare monsters for 12-15ex worth of oils per map. The returns on a juiced breach with 200% rare monsters and 200% rarity more than makes up for the investment.

[@tonynippolei]

You forgot the distilled emotions

[@holydarkness6007]

Can you reforge 3 t15s into t16? Because every time I reforge waystones I always get higher tier as a result

[@koopk1]

@@holydarkness6007 corrupt them with vaal orbs to get t16, its like 1 in 5 chance.

[@VirtualVault0]

divine orbs are so high because people use it to gamble Ingenuity Utility Belt which is probably one of the best belts out there, that is why the price is going up

[@FumaazHD]

what a dum dum comment xD

[@laizerwoolf]

The price of div to ex keeps increasing, and the price of item in divs also increase. locking my char out of gear upgrades 😢

[@rhaelphens]

As a new player I fully agree. For me personally it doesn´t make sense the "Crafting" since there is no real crafting ingame. It´s pure Gambling named as "crafting". If they wanted they could simply let us craft "Divine Orbs" or any other Currency ingame that are necessary to improve our Characters. But for me the most annoying thing is the random drop of an Armor/weapon/jewel item that is useless for my character. And even if that item had 2 or three stats that i can use with my character, based on the "Random" effect of the currencies modifier is more gambling that actual crafting. Crafting is absent in the game. I hope they can add a good crafting system for release and not stay as is in EA-State.

[@ChaosTyrant]

I miss alterations for eg flasks so much.

[@Flosstradamuss]

Quantity is more useful than rarity everyday of the week. Don’t focus too hard on rarity mods on maps/precursors. Don’t tank your res for rarity either. Hit like 100-150% rarity than focus heavy on quantity maps/precursors and anoint those with mob density and rare density and heavy focus breech precursors. Thank me later. Yes I also only drop 1-2 divines per 10hrs. But the exalts and simulacrums are about 20 per map, easily. Anointed maps + breech = insane exalts/simulacrums. Simulacrums sell for 1 exalt. So every simulacrum is an exalt in my eyes.

[@vide6258]

Adding a DIVINE sink will increase price, as then you would have an actual demand for divines without increasing their supply. Exalts need to start being useful and also less exalts/more divines need to drop at low MF levels (0% rarity on gear that is)

[@Kluaos]

We had same damn issue in PoE1 already. Same goes with the Life vs ES situation. WHY do we have to make the same mistakes again, 10 years later???

[@michisauer]

Please stop the es/live talk. Life right now is in a bad spot, so true so far. But es is not op... Es takes double dmg from chaos, it still is an invest to go es and lose out on evasion or armour (which truly is shit in poe2, i agree on that one). The biggest outlier is grim feast, which overflows and doubles the amount of es, if there is enough monsters around. If not, you are stuck on your basic 5 to 8k (9 to 10 on high invest). That's your effective life pool, not any more. This means against chaos your life pool at 75% res is a staggering 10k-16k. Most players will have less. On evasion chars with acro you can reach 75% evade for all hits + 75% res. Factor this with a lifepool of 3k+ (friend of mine is sitting at 3.8k on his archer). For a bit fairer comparison we take the 75% evade granted as 50/50 on first and 2nd hit. So we now take this value... 3k/0.5 equals 6k. 6k with 75%res equals 24k effective hp. The hit you can tke for granted stays at 12k though. I take chaos dmg as an example because it is the deadliest outlier. You can go with the same value for life on all dmg types (aside phys, which you can't resist usually). Let's be true to ourselves now. Is 6 to 10k es such an outlier compared to poe1? Is 3.5k hp such an outlier on evasion chars compared to poe1? I don't think so. Is grim feast too strong and would a 50% nerf to overflow hurt us? No, definitely not! Is armour weaker than it should be (screw ya gg, why give it a 12x multi instead of the 5x before? Why hand armour break and ignorance out like candy on Halloween?) Sure! Do we need at least some life-notes around the tree to allow for more different playstiles? Yes ffs! My bloodwitch feels let down a bit here... Can we ask ggg to address these issues? Safe to say so, as we are still in beta. My biggest concern is the things that happened to es for a long time in poe1: if you weaken ist too much -> no alternative and kills witch, sorcerer and any other one starting there. If you let life off, you have only one way to play life-based, which is with acrobatics and evade. Stop comparing life and es on a 1/1 basis, es incorporates other defenses into itself. Btw: the strongest defense right now is mixing a medium life-pool (about 2k ) with evasion and es (winddancer and ghost shroud) or go full es + ci... Which is still not possible for all builds. Left side is let down massively right now.

[@Jon-py9xl]

I don't mind magic find like D2, but allow us to work hard to craft that special gear so us people with lives can still enjoy the game.

[@tonynippolei]

Literally every piece of currency is used for crafting. What more do you want

[@MightyPringer]

Another thing worth mentioning is that as you get to end game you tend to use a lot less exalts anyway. Since you can just trade for better gear which is easier than trying to 'craft' and also more of you gear becomes uniques so you stop looking for bases to craft on for like half your gear. Probably the only real sink in the late game for them is for slamming maps, but when you find like 5ish raw exalts per map you still getting more than you would use in the next map(assuming you don't already have a good rare map)

[@jakkrit6910]

agree 100% after play since EA start i still not see anyway to using divine in practical way. the only way right now is to gamble on unique roll like mahu shield and hope for 600%+

[@tonynippolei]

Ingenuity also wants a high roll. You have those gambler rings that would be godly if the mods had positive rolls.

[@kyotheman69]

i get its early access, but this should been looked at before opening the flood gates to players

[@raphlecrabe8373]

Part of the problem is us paying with divines, i didn't get it when i saw trades with divines early on instead of chaos or annulment.

[@hazzua]

because chaos and annul in this state are hot garbage and also really really common

[@raphlecrabe8373]

@@hazzua pretty true

[@raphlecrabe8373]

except for annul being common but they are garbage so we are fucked

[@Amatsuichi]

I gave up on the market after 4 days of trying to buy a few uniques. There seem to be a large group of farmers buying everything out then reposting it at insane prices. So literally any unique which is needed for any build now costs a divine or more... exalts are worthless. Prices are insane and a small group of farmers is exploiting the whole game economy. Its probably better to stay in SSF.

[@evildarkeevildark5943]

yeh i got spammed by ppl and bots for sure to in like 5-10 sec had like 300 wisper.. and i notice bots lvl 2-3 auto invite you to make the game crash xD had idk how many like 30-40 invites in thet sec or 2.. its wierd

[@THEF4LLOFM4N]

People make real world money from selling in game items too.

[@Syphirioth]

@@evildarkeevildark5943 Ever since bots in wow made money for you while doing nothing it did not get less worse.

[@donydony1231]

@02:00 it would've been nice if you told us how many exalted orbs you get too, so we can get a sense of many divines are actually worth based on their backend drop rate.

[@kkplx]

let's be clear on one thing - the amount of exalted we drop isn't stupid, it's sufficient. Exalted orbs fill the function of alteration orbs in POE1, letting you spend several per item to try and fish for an upgrade. Also, I've used FOUR divine orbs! ...because i mistook them for regal and used them on a magic item. ;_;

[@86TrapHouse]

Nice

[@Skazzo]

Yikes

[@ShiyoKozuki]

This is why the game should be balanced around creating and finding your own gear.

[@nemo9913]

A man who make 3 mirrors in first week of new league, selling helmets to RMT players is against RMT ?

[@Akki150]

Amazing analysis Ghazzy! Finally someone who really points out the real issue and not just the superficial issue with the rarity. I really hope the devs see this video, because what you point out and also suggest as a fix, are things that are a must have when they try to tackle this problem. Real big thanks for this video, very well research and well executed :)

[@witness6174]

The real problem, if any, is not the economy itself but how players define success in the game. If divine orbs accumulate, rising item prices likely reflect a shortage of desirable items or inflated expectations from sellers, which still follow supply and demand principles. Players who treat the game as a market simulation or a way to earn real money separate themselves from the rest of us, pricing their items so high they can only sell to each other.

[@altromonte15]

yeah but that's what the game is all about. poe has always been market simulator, back in beta when we had only 3 acts people were selling shavronne's wrapping for like 300 exalts because low-life was the best build, and it took people a whole league to farm that much, and they still did it.

[@TheGuyJack1]

Or like I noticed when Raxx had his old lightening deadeye build posted, bows were 1-2 exalts for a good one.... And now he put out an updated deadeye build and bows that were 1-3 exalts before the video are now 75-120 exalts or 20-40 divines.... It's insane.

[@MrRaja]

Exalted orbs would be used more often if we had more omens. So people start using them on maps to 6 mod them with a single exalt instead of two. Or double slam with a single exalt. Or my cooked take add a currency upgrade recipe for 3 chaos to 1 exalt and 3 exalt to 1 vaal orb and 3 vaal orb to 1 annul and 30 annul to 1 divine. Giving chaos and exalts a static value. Or my Absolute original idea: Divine orb should have "increase the tier of a random modifier on an item." and make the divine orb even more rare than it is right now and make omens more common... They wanted to make this game for casual this is the best approach to make a game casual.

[@Mesoz]

Omens not being so incredibly scarce would help a bit and give exalts more of a sink, this in turn would make them more valuable. They could keep some omens still pretty rare, like the corrupt one I think is perfectly fine to keep as a more rare drop. We def need something though lmao.

[@Xanthus-5c]

Wait tis feels so familiar. Was this not solved already in poe1? Do the teams not talk with each other?

[@saunorine]

No these are all design decisions. You think ggg couldnt have fixed trading a long time ago? No its their vision. The chinese poe client had a death log, premade builds for new players built ingame, and a very basic auction house that doesnt require hideout trading. Its been in the chinese game since 2020 and thats only when the rest of the world found out

[@shanebovell6733]

Yea from week 1 I could spot many issues. The game isn't bad I just will leave these early pain-points to cook til they're done before I return.

[@imslightlybaked4575]

GGG needs to grab the devs from Last Epoch. Add in Last Epochs crafting system, and their loot filter!

[@tehf00n]

yeah.... no thats a fucking dogshit idea.

[@Eddy_Stylez]

GGG likes their capitalism simulator though. To them amassing in-game wealth > gameplay.

[@feloniousmonk5261]

LE crafting is best in the business imho. Honestly, this gambling crap in poe2 is sending me back to LE.

[@tehf00n]

@@feloniousmonk5261 It's better than POE2's current system I guess, but I wouldn't compere it to POE1's system. I find that the more deterministic elements of crafting LE has is right for it's game and monetisation, but POE1's is right for the target audience of gambling Diablo 2 fans who expect the level of randomness. I'm not going to mark down POE2 yet because only half the game is active, but it's not looking as good to me.

[@imslightlybaked4575]

@tehf00n i think le was great. It had depth, not as much as poe 1 but at the cost of that depth it was much easier to understand. From beginners to end game min maxing. Just my opinion. I dont like needing to pull up spread sheets or use 3rd party apps. I like being able to see all the options right there

[@Tuckrain]

the biggest problems i and my friends see as semi casual players is that we just cant afford any upgrades anymore. we all play about 2-4 hours a day (wich is a crapton tbh) but every item at a certain point is just 10div or more. i havent had 10 divs at once in my entire time playing poe2. nothing sells anymore. everything is either 1 exalt on the market or 1 div+ now. but funny enough nobody buys items that arent perfectly rolled. so youre stuck with stash tabs full of items that are.. fine but not 100% perfect. and unless you are a gigablaster youre stuck at farming t14/15 base while getting 1shot every 3rd map o sustaining those is straight awfull aswell.. honestly i understand that most of my friend group allready quit and wait for the next reset

[@anlkuyucu6825]

I'm just holding on to learn mechanics in general. But I feel like I won't be able to buy anything again.

[@rekrn12345]

Because you are only looking for perfect rolled items. You can still find plenty of good items for a handful of exalts

[@necaacen]

you dont need items that cost 10 divs and you dont need perfect items.

[@Syphirioth]

@@necaacen Correct. With perfect meta class you not need items as much. If not you might need some gear you not gonna get or find and so can only buy.

[@AethelTV]

I'm here, And i'm ready to blame empyrian. I'm doing my part!

[@marcosdheleno]

yeah, lets blame a player, not the system, that will fix things when they ban them, but keep things the way they are!

[@AethelTV]

​@@marcosdheleno Max cap rarity per map? That way we nerf group play and solo players can farm away.

[@peterschelin]

@@AethelTV Great, nerfing party play is fcking stupidity, just so u can feel good. Crying over magic find just cuz some top players are looting in groups.....so many snowflakes

[@MrTheanimekiller]

Divs can make a unique item triple in value off one use. It's why they are so valuable even though the only sink is on the high end gear with big modifier ranges.

[@Despond]

You only get one shot again, they are repeating mistakes. And this is why I play SSF. The markets already bombed and controlled by breach/rarity runners. Now anyone else that would take 1 month to do what some are doing in a few days have to deal with these prices.

[@Lordrakeenov]

I was hesitant to do ssf since no crafting bench. How has your experience been so far?

[@binhvan4893]

@@Lordrakeenov Try ssf with poisonous concoction pf, it only requires +lvl from your bow and quiver yet still deals insane amount of dmg, enough for you to reach t10 without any good drop.

[@Unified-Gaming]

Dont usually comment but this is by far one of the better breakdown of the current market and pricing issue. Seems really obvious but those things are often overlooked. Im hoping that with divines becoming increasingly unhelpful that they will end up being ways to mass trade exaults kind of like how £50 notes in the uk are rarely taken in shops but can be exchanged for other amounts which are accepted.

[@VTC_32]

Something increasing in quantity reduces its value, not the other way around

[@marcosdheleno]

normally yes, but there's something called inflation, when there's too much of a currency in the market, it makes it so its less valuable per unit. so you end up needing more of it compared to how it used to.

[@whitechicken44]

it decreases value, but then div orbs are baseline trading currency. people with low mf find none. im lvl 86 ive found 2

[@necaacen]

@@marcosdheleno thatw what the guy said, you havent described a different situation thats exactly what the op said.

[@user-ne2zx3nd2k]

Two culprits here: 1) rarity, 2) temporalis body armor

[@EscalateWorldOfTanksBlitz]

chinese are why, and the RMT market is running wild. also too many people are RMT'ing, nobody is going to get banned except for the sellers who handles thousands of divines.

[@itzjustkris7964]

I mean their prices aren’t even bad I didn’t use it but I looked it’s 3 bucks per divine

[@jamestinyp]

@@itzjustkris7964the problem is, when you have money you make more for free with 0 work involved. Buy the cheapest ingenuity belt, throw a divine on it. It’s not going to get worse, and you could very easily turn 15 divine, into 40. That’s 75$ in their prices for doing absolutely nothing and it’s almost impossible to not get profits, every single time. Multiple items are like that. When you have no downsides and money prints money, 3$ is insane. They can make in 5 minutes what most will spent 8 to 12 hours to achieve with no effort, education, anything needed. As someone who does have a lot of currency, it’s not fair to the majority.

[@motivatemindz3320]

I think a bigger issue with everything inflating so hard around divs (since they are not really useful) is if the developers do something to fix their drop rates and adjust the rarity changes on gear (if they do those as well). It will cause the entire economy to implode.

[@synapsenblocker1238]

I think the first thing ggg should do after returning from holidays is closing the market, reset it and take rarity out of the game. Better to cut off the dead flesh sooner rather than later.

[@rekrn12345]

That would make it worse. Rarity is helping not hurting

[@thunderingice667]

What do you mean by resetting the market? To reset the economy, I think they would need to, at least, take away all the currency from all the players. That still leaves the rich with good gear and better currency generation though. I think resetting the “market” would have to mean a league restart. I can’t imagine them doing that without new poe 2 content for players to engage in. Otherwise, I think they get a mass exodus of players.

[@tehf00n]

It's Standard. Nobody gives a fruity fuck about the economy. Just play the game and wait for leagues if you want to cry about economy balancing.

[@chasecharland1160]

​@@tehf00nbest comment iv seen here!

[@deciett]

@@thunderingice667 They can push all characters to early access parent league to hard reset the economy whenever they want. They said they didn't want to do any wipes but did mention this idea during the pre-release interviews. Standard would be starting from zero at that point, but you could continue to play on that early access league if you wanted to.

[@Drenith]

I'm sure others have mentioned this already, but I think the problem is that divines are the only currency really worth ever using. In poe 1 you might spend 1000 alt + aug + scour, but in poe 2 that would require a thousand bases which is insane. Since it's entirely a slot machine and the barrier to entry is higher people aren't spending their trash currency which means it is ballooning like crazy. Then in the divine side they barely trickle in and some do actually get used because they are fairly reliable - they just move numbers up or down.

[@stephenknox2346]

More and more divines with none being used should push prices relative to exalts DOWN not up, so no idea how this makes sense as an explanation. The website not being updated to accurately track the exchange rates is easily the biggest culprit right now, followed by rarity. RMT is definitely an effect, but it's not new to POE 2, the other 2 are.

[@totallynottrademarked5279]

Because they have no value other than a store of value they become a speculative market instead of one subject to the law of supply and demand with multiple market forces pulling and pushing in different directions. Basically people see the price going up, more people buy, price keeps going up. People who bought in early like TFT who bought up a massive supply when they were like 3-4 exalts a pop then make a killing on RMT, as the common person realizes its better to spend .05 hours of real world labor than spend 200+ hours grinding.

[@JfkNeedsWindWall]

Yeah that didn't make sense to me either. If there is no usage for divine orbs then supply should continue to increase relative to exalts. Then if nobody wants them then they would have even less value

[@gampie13]

divining a few unique, already is a massive sink atm due to the cost of the unique. The belt as an example, it is a huge gain, to buy a shit one, and spam divine it to sell when you get a high roll. For divining high value unique to not be pure profit on average atm, divines need to cost at least x2 of what it's worth now. Or for the number of value uniques to x2-4 at least in supply

[@TheSilverwing999]

No because people are using divines as an investment for their "fortunes". It's like gold irl, just because it's not used for anything doesn't mean the value will go down Maybe not gold but very close to what bitcoin is basically And the droprate is low enough that the market doesn't get overflown with divines. They aren't common enough to make any impact. If divines were made more common, people would use another rare currency for investment

[@JfkNeedsWindWall]

@TheSilverwing999 economies are ratios though. Exalts supposedly should have more usage as more players try crafting while divines don't get usage. The ratio of number divines to exalts should be higher than weeks ago because divines don't have usage. These economics make no sense to me

[@RelaxedpiperYoutube]

Why GGG didn't stick with PoE1 orbs and crafting is beyond me. GGG should have keep the best of what PoE1 had to offer and and carry it into PoE2? If GGG wanted crafting in P2 then they should have taken a note from Last Epoch. They take great ideas from other games and improve it which is great, but they didn't even do it with their own game. lol

[@frost94100]

I think it's part of the plan and they already have the patch cooked waiting to be released. Then they can act the so good super hero developpers fanboys are always selling us :). "Looks !!! GGG god tier developpers, THEY LISTEN TO THEIR PLAYER BASE OMG OMG SO RARE THIS DAY, I WILL PUT 100 DOLLAR ON MTX MHHHH I LOVE THE TASTE OF THEIR SHOES" That's shameful

[@ZoraTheExplora]

I just want group self found. I wanna group with friends but don't want a trade system in the mode. You can keep standard.

[@Thalaranthey]

i mean... you can do that, just dont use site in standard

[@Datastreamx]

I want group ironman as well. I have no interest in trading with random people but I want to still be able to give my trash to friends

[@levagabond4464]

@@Thalaranthey The game is not designed to play in group. If you do, you just add harder progression, less loot. Ideally we need a better progression for crafting yourself your items, get the loot you need to progress further etc ... Just like torchlight inf does, ssf is a real thing. Poe is solo vs trade, if trade goes up, good luck to get your cheap item with low tier res and life

[@ZoraTheExplora]

@Thalaranthey I knew this comment would pop up. Yeah then everyone you group with is decked out and it becomes a skill-less game just like standard.

[@Mipzhap]

​@@ZoraTheExploracan't you just only play with your friends and you all agree to ignore the trade site? SSF is an easy rule to self impose without the need for devs to do anything.

[@xiangli7417]

You are making 0 sense. If Divine orbs are not being used (less demand) then their value would have gone DOWN not UP. The real reason is that divine orbs are rare and are being used on top tier uniques which give most character power.

[@Yomush]

Rarity is a massive problem in PoE 2, but it definitely has severe diminishing returns. However having 100% increased rarity is going to make a HUGE difference in how much currency you drop but going from 100% to 200% is not as impactful. It's insane how issues that have been fixed in PoE 1 are re-introduced in PoE 2 and I hope that GGG addresses it quickly after the christmas break, preferably removing rarity from equipment entirely and rebalancing the loot tables to minimize the impact for the people who didn't buy into the "rarity meta"

[@onursakgun9509]

The reason why div is the highest currency after Mirror is that it's the highest currency after mirror in POE1. But like you mentioned the reason for that was the crafting bench and the mod it brought with it. Here in POE2 it has no inherent value like that yet people act like the currency has an inherent value like this and therefore they copy the price system from POE1 but that doesn't add here. What I don't understand is that GGG has not brought over the currency system as it was and let the people do their usual work. If you don't want the orbs to be used for the trade then you should implement another kind of currency for that. Lots of currency selling sites already has flushed the market with their divine orbs, they use crazy amount of item rarity percentage with the group. I have seen some guys use this method (they are actually shameless enough to show this on you tube) and make divines drop like flies. In the end what's gonna happen is as Ghazzy mentioned. The market will be filled with divine orbs, people will start selling trash items with divine and everyone will suffer as a result of this. The game is gonna be broken before anyone gets to play it.

[@Devonwilliams-zd1kc]

And this is why I play SSF on a barely month old EA game lol I’ll gladly wait for them to solve this issue later on

[@necaacen]

its not really the bench mods, its just the perception of it as the trading currency, thats why people want it. we didnt used to have benches in poe1 in 2013, but exalts and divines still existed. to make top tier items people actually used the same or more divine orbs than exalts to make their mirror crafts nearly perfect. but divines were cheap compared to exalts, they had same drop rate, were used about the same amount by people. why were exalts so much more expensive then? because it was the perceived trading currency. thats all it is. when ggg changed the bench mods to cost divines they told people it would be so divines were considered more valuable. people starting using more exalts, its not about divines being needed more, theyre not, its simply ggg told people divines were the new hype currency that people would want so that flipped the market to pricing items in divines and that caused divines to go from 10:1 exalt to 1:10 exalts. its rly nothing to do with sinks and benches etc. if that is the perceived dollar bill of the game people will need it to trade so the demand will be insane. its 99% about it being seen as the trading currency.

[@HankTheMailman96]

@@necaacen Divines were also given from vendoring 6 links before the bench changes, which made them super cheap

[@necaacen]

@@HankTheMailman96 6 links were not common in 2013 either tho. that only became a thing with corruption and div cards. there were no meaningful amount of divines coming from vendoring 6 links back then.

[@Derpaholic_rex_games-wr2pw]

@@necaacen Yes but also at that time the meta crafts used exalts, and exalts were the big value currency. Divs only became the high value currency in the past few years (1-3 years). Was actually a bit surprised when i came back and divs were now the value item (and i've never really gotten used to it tbh)

[@MrZakXero]

Content creator: Hey guys check out how broken magic find is!!! Everyone get 300% on your gear and watch it rain down currency! Also content creator: why did everything go up in price?

[@rekrn12345]

Didn't happen.

[@Phanta75]

There's a HUGE Divine sink in one of the best chase items in the game "Ingenuity belt" It multiplies the bonuses from both rings with 40-80%. This is very powerful, and the belt is pretty expensive itself. So people are using Divs to gamble this belt, hoping to get a 75-80% roll on it. The market in POE and POE2 is based on supply and demand, and if there was no use for divine orbs, they would be worthless.

[@beardedbear4737]

100% agree. Gambling isnt crafting. At this rate it feels like they could monetize the currency because its a gambling game. First thing i asked my friend when he was bragging about his divines. " what are they for " My response to his answer was... thats a pretty useless item. Who decided these orbs were the standard. Lol. I will just use exalts which makes sense.

[@chase2968]

Haha I love how he mentions RMT for currency then right on Que an ad for PoEcurrency plays

[@sakuyalc5567]

On my infernalist arsonist build with 300% rarity it's still very rare for me to see a divine orb. It's like nothing changed from 100 to 300 ://

[@maxlastbreath]

Not sure, but do u have the gloves that count ally kill as your own?

[@evildarkeevildark5943]

@@maxlastbreath if his solo he dont need it

[@evildarkeevildark5943]

afther we tryed with 260 rarity with 3 player we had like 5-6 unique drop just in a small map in the campaning xD.. so it does alot with group

[@sakuyalc5567]

@@maxlastbreath Yes, those gloves with 40% rarity and 1-2% lose life on kill. If i understood correctly...

[@DimkaTsv]

@@evildarkeevildark5943 He is arsonist build. It is minion.

[@kiwi5265]

Can some 1 explain to me how thsi works In my mind if we dont use divine orbs for anything the price should go down no ?

[@CHArAQUZA]

yeah divine orbs will be less valuable and items that would go for 1 div week ago will go for 10 div now, that's the issue, considering divine itself is going up compared to exalteds which is more realistic currency to farm, while divines are just lucky drops for most players

[@SCP42723]

All praise Jonathan, truly the savior of bad decisions. It was fun while It lasted Chris Wilson, thank you for all the years of PoE 1. You'll never be forgotten.

[@matasurbonas7901]

Lmao chris passed the torch to jonathan

[@johanschneider4802]

Haven’t seen anyone with this take yet. Really good point! Swedens authority on PoE delivers as always!👌

[@bobbobb5759]

its simply a case of people using divines more an more as they get their best items/right affixes. and x amount of exalts being generated vs divines. nothing crazy lol. This video's back to front and confused on supply demand too....

[@rckstr1111]

I am glad you were able to change your viewpoint on how big of a problem rarity is. I want to add a few things ontop of what you have listed as other factors for the market being what it is. Flippers, i don't need to explain to you what they are doing. A while back, almost over night, people started to list their items for divs instead of exalted orbs for no reason. Initially it might have been because people started to figure out how much rarer a divine is, predicted the market correctly and thus swapped to divines (this also ties into flippers buying out cheap divs). Gambling. Many divs have been actually used and burned for items like Ingenuity or Mahuxotl. But i disagree with partially blaming breach. It is the only fun mapping mechanic avaible. If you take that away without massively buffing everything else, what is there to do other than farming maps with little going on in them?

[@patrickoviatt2432]

I think a good chunk of what's wrong can be helped by giving everyone a trade NPC in their hideouts, like Faust, (or whoever), who handles item trades. The market would somewhat stabilize when people can just reserve an item for 2-3 minutes, go to the hideout, and buy the item at the persons vendor. It can even be limited to only work when the person's online.

[@WutherWave-qc3ud]

Console poe 1 had it but offline u can do it

[@duncanidaho5834]

I don't see how that would solve anything. How in the world would that help the currency value inflation? That wouldn't do anything. That wouldn't even help a little bit.

[@scarletmoon777]

I mostly agree but there would be one small benefit and that is rich players using it to sell cheap items. If your a endgame screen clearing IR beast then stopping to sell a 5 exalt actually costs you.

[@patrickoviatt2432]

@@duncanidaho5834 it's a time based impact. more people being able to sell/buy lower priced stuff from everyone's vendor means more currency moves along the bottom end, and higher priced stuff stops selling. have you paid more for something than you needed to simply because you couldn't get the person you messaged to respond back? think it through.

[@patrickoviatt2432]

@@scarletmoon777 that's also a part of it, but ultimately, the only real way to fight any inflation is supply/demand in a healthy market. right now POE2 does NOT have one. once more people can actually move their stuff back and forth, the inflation should come down, as a good chunk of the blasters will have to lower some of their prices a bit, just to get stuff to move, and the people who don't have all day to spend at the keyboard can still get their stuff to sell easier, without having to log in and play 'vendor online'.

[@Bacon-egg-cheese]

Shouldn't the lack of divine sink make the price relative to exalts go down since more divines are printed and not removed from the market vs exalts that are being used? Or are we saying exalts are being printed too fast too and there needs to be a larger sink for them as well?

[@Infra_Red]

Market is fucked economy is fucked I seen this happening after the loot drop changes

[@KeeY88]

There is even an easier solution to this issue boss and it all start with what you said with orb of scouring. You cannot find a base item on the ground, try trans and augment and if the mods are shit you use a scouring. Additional to that we do not have alteration orbs, which contributes to the issue above mentioned. Rarity is not the real problem, it is thousands or millions of new players in poe2, they did not spend any money to their poe1 account (because they simply didnt play poe1). They are more likely to buy from RMT than ppl who put in hundreds or thousands of euros into their poe1 account. This is still early access, so everything will be in standard league, as soon as another league starts, but I am really hoping that they will introduce scouring, alteration and some other old currencies. Ofc the crafting bench which is essential in poe. One change I would wish as well is getting the god damn rune or soul core out of your sockets! I am okay with that the rune/soul core is removed or destroyed when I take it out, but it limits your item so much and lessens the value.

[@inthelight4671]

I just saw from a random clip that you taught how to use the weighted sum for resistances, I've been looking for a way ever since day1. Just for that I will subscribe :)

[@totallynottrademarked5279]

I smell a full reset in our future.

[@mewni2956]

no shit

[@rekrn12345]

This is early access beta test. The reset was never in question.

[@olegstarik8387]

nope, ggg dont care about economy, we had similar situation multiple times in poe1, no resets income

[@totallynottrademarked5279]

@@rekrn12345 I obviously meant sooner rather than later. Like pretty much after they get back from holiday we can expect a reset within a couple weeks.

[@rekrn12345]

@@totallynottrademarked5279 They aren't going to start a new league a month into the game. Unless they drastically change the drop rates of currencies it won't change anything anyway.

[@fluffrier]

Let's be real, in a vacuum, this isn't a big deal. But neither are a lot of the other problems like IIR, build power, power from passive tree and crafting. But all these problems existing together at once created a perfect storm of feeling like absolute crap. You join the game, people are selling gear for a ton of money because there's no div sink and people farmed a bunch of divs with MF. So you naturally are railroaded into playing meta (read: Archmage EB MOM archetype) so you can fit whatever IIR you can because you can't take IIR on other "weaker" archetype and make up for the loss of power with your passive tree, and that's assuming you even have good enough gear to begin with, because crafting is nonexistent. So you slog through dozens up to hundreds of maps playing something that's strong but may not be fun for you, or play something that just is a little weaker but feels way worse because all the above factors compounding onto each other.

[@treybowman8561]

I think the issue can be fixed with a new currency item inbetween exalt and divine . Previously it was the chaos orb . Order of value was Chaos , exalt , divine Now essentially it’s just Exalt , divine . The new chaos orb doesn’t have the same use . So the market is roughly 33-50% more volatile .

[@emmanuelmurrayleclair2472]

Very interesting video. I want to add a few points that could help predict the state of the economy using simple economics. TL;DR I don't think it is as bad as you think. (1) The net supply of divines will keep increasing because no one uses divines directly: true. (2) the price of items in terms of divines will keep increasing: true. Inflation follows from (1). However, the price of divines in terms of exalts will likely decrease, which counterbalances inflation from (2). Indeed, demand for divines does not increase (no one uses them), while the supply of divines increases, pushing down the value of a divine relative to exalts. Effectively, as long as there is one major currency that's used directly by players, the economy doesn't get affected in "real" terms.

[@williamwhite8667]

Essences and omens need to be more common the higher you go so that crafting is more incentived.

[@yegorzuev5976]

They should add "Allowed deaths (number)" crafting modifier to waystones, which you would be able to craft for Divine orbs

[@heyyoo8435]

totally agree with you, i dont think the rarity is that bad (although they ll probably make big changes to the rarity down the road), it really is the fact that there is no in depth crafting in the game at the moment and divine orbs are just piling up and people started to use them to trade literally even trash items

[@DannyOE4]

I literally just made a post on reddit asking why divines are even the standard trading currency. Most popular answer was so you can reroll expensive uniques like Ingenuity/Astramentis, etc. Which I get that, but like how many divines is someone who can afford those kinds of items really going to right click anyway? 5-10? Less than that? None of it makes sense to me.

[@nekrovx]

I'd play SSF if armor wasn't just gambling left and right. I miss the crafting table from POE 1 and have spent less time in POE 2 atm ( until next patch ) and gone back to grinding POE 1 just because I have the crafting bench

[@bappo2693]

"To address the problems of rarity and quantity modifiers, we've decided to reduce all damage modifiers of Warrior class by 75%"

[@frost94100]

100% will happen