What happens when you play Tank for a week?

[@dirusj4006]

Its not just that Tank carries far more responsibility its that at the same time tank has almost no player agency. Your choice of character is picked by balance, map, team comp, and enemy team comp. Then when the entire enemy team is hard countering everything you do and your team never swaps in 20 minutes you will be blamed for the loss. Every single time without fail. What you want to do means fuck all. Then there is stupid shit like several supports being able to cancel out everything you do by hitting a button and pointing in a general direction. Danteh said something like tanks have 10 options of what to do and only 1 of them is correct and that feels about exactly right. Worst part is more often than not standing around with your thumb up your ass is the right play.

[@probablysteven1325]

I keep seeing people make the same point recently and that is that “people just don’t want to play tank”-this is an argument against going back to 6v6 (Because queue times). This really irritates me because there are multiple reasons for this; it’s not tanks that are the issue but dps-for the most part people will play a hero regardless of whether they are tanks, dps or support as long as they enjoy the design. Marvel revivals recently proved this by adding Jeff- the amount of people who are playing the game for that character alone is crazy and in ow the fact is that there are way more dps than anything else (which was caused because they thought the game could be separated into defence and attack); I don’t play tank because I love taking/holding space for my team, I do it because I’m a rein bro through and through. Another thing is that balance can heavily influence how fun certain roles are which affects queue time P.s this is a shortened version of what I wanted to say so if it’s not been explained tooooo well…my bad 😅

[@arshnoorsran9191]

OW2 has actually had some fun new tanks like Junker Queen and Ramattra. The problem is the format feels miserable to play in as a single tank, so a lot of people who like playing JQ because she’s fun or Ramattra because he’s fun quit because tanking as a whole sucks. Too much cc and damage to bait out or take for one person. And this is on top of the fact that one tank means you can easily counter him. I personally think trying to get other roles to play tank more is a noble goal but one that should not be our main focus. Going back to 6v6 will bring back the tank mains that went to other roles because 5v5 just burnt them out.

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

​@arshnoorsran9191 I quit 2 seasons into OW2 because tank wasn't fun but in the 6v6 PUGs Rammatra is a beast and I love playing him

[@probablysteven1325]

@@certifiedfunnyguy yeah most of my friends quit as well, in fact the other friends I have that play the game who are around gm barely play the game anymore but still argue saying 5v5 is better. I don’t understand how they can defend the game when they actively trash talk it and don’t play it as much

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

You are correct. My point is ok so it sucks to solo tank in 5v5 even with all these stats, now remember in OW1 open queue how there were fewer tank options, they had worse stats, and if you picked tank there was no guarantee you’d have a cotank to mitigate your weaknesses or even 1-2 supports to provide enough healing. This is even before the AOE healing/CC powercreep that came with Moira/Brig/Bap. So you could easily be in a situation you are 1 tank with 5 DPS going against 2 tanks with 2 supports (or even full GOATS). No wonder people didn’t want to play tank! People would rather just flank on a DPS or snipe than try to be the team player without a team. Then, once they added 222 role lock and you could actually reliably have enough support to do your job and another tank to take some aggro for you- the damage had already been done by Brig with the AOE healing and CC added to the game, plus GOATS era powercreep for DPS and Orisa, and they added Sigma along with role lock so it was instant double shield meta. Nobody’s tryna play tank into that either. So for the entirety of 6v6, you either had to hope 3 people on your team picked another tank and 2 supports to have a good experience, and once we finally got 222 it was instant double shield meta backed by Bap/Brig going against stuff like buffed lifesteal Reaper and Mei multifreeze (not to mention Hog at this point could practically one shot Rein/Winston the classic beloved main tanks). Also the tanks they added to the game were Orisa who was so unbelievably boring, ball who was incredibly niche, and Sigma who was more fun than Orisa but still ultimately a shield camping AFK tank. 5v5ers need to realize people wanted to play tank, but the experience was so hostile due to BALANCE issues. If they nerfed AOE healing, kept the reduced CC, and added the new tank designs into 222 role queue I’m sure the queue times would be fine. This “revealed vs stated preferences” thing misses the point. I see what they’re saying- people SAY they wanted to play tank, but in reality if you look at the stats and queue times you’ll see they actually didn’t and they just wanted someone else to. No, they actually did want to play tank but the experience was so awful because they made terrible balance decisions and for a large % of the game’s life you didn’t even have the necessary team components to make the teamwork tanks work! This point irritates me as well.

[@probablysteven1325]

@@GraphiteBlimp27 it’s funny to me that people are always getting mad at the devs for looking at what the statistics say and balance things based on that without looking at why the statistics show that and here we are now with the ow player base looking at the stats and just going, “SEE, PEOPLE DONT WANNA PLAY TANK, TANK IS THE PROBLEM) and not looking at why tank is like that.

[@dirusj4006]

Some people may have missed it but he is basically always duoed with a DPS. That value alone is massive.

[@EVOLUTIONARX]

Sounds like you're saying stepping into the Tank role means you're step dad. All the responsibilities but none of the authorities 😂😂😂

[@FrostyMts]

It’s crazy how depressing it is to be told by everyone that I’m not actually trying or playing the game when my rank is lower.

[@BapLampxSuzu]

I still want dps doom in 5v5

[@goosie333]

I'm not a fan of Blizzard calling 5v5 more cognitively manageable when the game has only become less intuitive since the launch of OW2. You're rewarded less for play making and rewarded more for play denial and it feels like it gets worse with every patch. Buffing survivability doesn't make the game more fun, no one likes baiting out 5 CDs before they can do anything and it makes the game feel really punishing to new/lower rank players. This is true for all roles, but it's much worse on tank.

[@Shiftup72]

Less playmaking in 5v5 but more snowballing? So feeding is more impactful, yet getting a pick is less impactful.

[@its_lucky252]

how are immorts a cause of 5v5

[@Lo0serx3]

​@@Shiftup72 yeah that's kinda how it feels. I've experienced it a lil bit with DPS

[@Shiftup72]

@@Lo0serx3 those are contradictory statements

[@user-rg9co7dk2r]

I think the reason he's saying that he felt not impactful is because he's playing before the tank Giga buff patch where it felt hard to achieve anything by yourself

[@stottpie]

I legit wouldn't mind tanking if they deleted hog and sombra. Also, tank boops shouldn't be reduced against tanks. Would make ball a lot better.

[@lastadmiral4432]

Bro, I've decided I'm never solo queueing tank because I got a game qhere both supports said "I'm sorry, I'm not healing" and picked zen lucio

[@JulianneStingray]

Support players are idiots

[@Garry-y7b]

You know I gots to pull out the hamston when that happens

[@Darren222Watson]

10:52 I think what annoys me more about this match up from the Ana perspective is that I get no reward for punishing Dooms mistakes. I can make punch and ult wiff and sleep him all I want but he will never die due to his ridiculously low coodown cycle and passive tankiness. As annoying as DF was in OW1, at least he dies when he was slept with no cool downs.

[@Darren222Watson]

Spilos comments about Ball and Doom need anti-cc abilities also really urks me - their cc outplay is that they can use hyper-mobility to bait and feint coupled with their absurd tankiness to take a few hits. I'm fine with lower effectiveness of sleep dart on less mobile tanks, but I don't agree Ball and Doom should be in the same boat. Sleep at 3.5 seconds is not a deterent to prevent these tanks from making stupid plays. In think, the greater issue that should be looked at is chaining cc effects instead.

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

This is why I don’t like Doom’s direction, and it’s a result of 5v5. DPS Doom had to charge punch longer if he wanted to get the 1 shot and was incredibly vulnerable. Even if he did rooftop rollouts, you could hear him coming and meet him with a sleep, Zen volley, whipshot/boop, etc (contrary to popular belief, supports had a lot of counterplay to this especially if they owned headphones!) and screw up his dive. High risk, high reward. The only things that sucked about DPS Doom was the one shot punch and the lack of counterplay once he lands the slam/uppercut. Tank Doom on the other hand, is much stronger and I find more annoying personally, since you will need your whole team to focus him due to him being a tank needing to compete in a role with immense powercreep. Powerblock is a worse mechanic than deflect/bubbles because it doesn’t flow naturally with his kit, it’s very much the case that his only play is reliant on your team screwing up and giving him charge, whereas Genji has interesting duel dynamics with his ability and Zarya can enable herself/teammates. It just seems like a gimmick. I find myself more annoyed taking a multipunch that hits my teammate and causes me to get hit in turn more than any one shot punch since it’s not my fault whereas if I’m hit by a DPS Doom punch it’s my fault. Also in their attempt to make him more accessible, he gets absurd amounts of regen/HP from landing abilities, powerblocking, and he even gains HP back in his ult now too. An empowered punch also feels just as devastating as the old DPS Doom punch (and can even net him multikills!) but it just has these added hoops to jump through first to obtain it. Regardless tank Doom can just 1v5 if he’s playing well, I’ve done it as Doom (he’s my most played OW2 hero), I’ve watched as my entire backline gets destroyed by one as I try to play a frontline tank, and I’ve used all my dmg/CD’s to punish him when I’m DPS/support yet he’s still half HP. My preferred Doom to play as/against would look like this: *Punch w/wall hit does 150 so you can one shot Tracer but not other squishies (if we revert to 200 standard HP) *Remove multipunch & powerblock (& empowered punch) *Bring back uppercut but let people hit by it “DI” (Directional Influence from Smash Bros, basically you can drift left or right creating a mindgame where Doom’s uppercut follow up with headshots isn’t just a skill check for him, but interactive between both players where he has to read where you drift) *bring back indicator slam *no HP regeneration in ult *300-400hp (depending on if he is a tank or DPS) I guess just DPS Doom without the one shot and slightly more HP… he could be a DPS with some dmg moved into his other abilities and primary fire or a tank where he gets more HP. Idk I’m a fan of both DPS/Tank Doom I just feel like there’s a perfect middle ground somewhere around what I suggested.

[@Chorismos]

​@@GraphiteBlimp27 I feel like if the Tank role hadn't been powercrept to insanity we might have had this Doomfist. If he is going to be a tank (most likely due to queue times) His lethality needs to be reduced and gimmicks like empowered punch needs to go.

[@魚-c3d]

​@@GraphiteBlimp27I agree with the issues you stated on tank doom but how much of it is a doom issue and how much of it is actually a 5v5 issue ? In 6v6 his health pool would be lower so he would be more punishable wouldn't he ?

[@魚-c3d]

​@@Darren222WatsonSpilo's point is that no matter the amount of tankiness and mobility these two have, their engages will always be ruined by CC and not just sleep dart but a multitude of CC abilities, which in the end just ruins the fun for them. Keeping the full duration of sleep dart on tanks but endowing them with more CC counterplay would mitigate these issues at least in 5v5, as long as it's a short/ skillful mechanic

[@samlambert4770]

51:26 working on frys is the tank role of mcdonalds. Dont blame them😂

[@cirno9349]

All of this happened because blizzard couldn’t balance goats

[@Latroize]

From what I know going back to 6v6 (if it even happen) will take some time, because they builded ow2 on crap engine and its not optimized for 6v6. They didint said it straight, but Aaron Keller said it between the lines in the last "Director's Take". Btw. If somehow they will revert to 6v6, I hope they will also fix bugs (especially with Genji) and revert the loudness of foot steps to the original.

[@realthlive7124]

It’s pretty easy to imagine, cage kitsune and tree of life are some of the biggest visual effects in the game, and the moment you give developers more space to work with they tend to use it to make bigger and better effects or save time by not optimizing.

[@yeetadog]

4:09 pov queueing competitive with crawlix

[@professoradonis8246]

Lessgo another banger to eat breakfast too

[@viljar55]

As a hardstuck dps player who can easily hit higher ranks onetricking Winston than playing DPS, I don't get this idea of tank being so miserable.

[@musicxxa6678]

Great understanding of the game Realth. I enjoy your content. I think devs compromise way too much for the sake of ''fun'' and ''chaos'' ''not samey''. It was always like this with Overwatch. Gameplay isn't a priority. They create so many problems because of this wrong direction but that's just my take. This game can be way more fair and solid. It's held hostage just so couple of Ball otp's, Doomfist otp's enjoy the game too. Or couple of friends can group up and beat the shit out of solo que players. It's all compromises everywhere. I don't think this cost worth it but devs think it's worth it. They kinda saved the support role with Kiriko, band aid to flawed gameplay and hero design so support players don't riot. Heroes like Zenyatta are now legacy heroes.

[@魚-c3d]

Band aid solutions everywhere, never addressing not understanding the core issues. Hero design problem ? They switched to 5v5. That's literally like "you broke your arm? Cut it off" 😂

[@Helios_8888]

I feel like a lot of the OW tanks could use better telegraphing. Sometimes even when I’m on a team with a Doomfist, the fact his engages are nearly impossible to telegraph makes it hard for me to sync up with him (even ball has a more telegraphed engage than Doomfist). I think keeping the sharpness and volatility is fine as long as there is a telegraph. It makes it easier to counter play but also easier to play with

[@probablysteven1325]

Hey, this is like my 3rd comment but I just wanted to say that I’m really enjoying these videos; it’s great for trying to get a better understanding of the game and if nothing else it’s fun to listen to 😂🎉

[@riafire7477]

Roadhog is fine

[@H4VOK_YT]

Disagree with doomfist punch its pretty telegraphed it takes a whole second to fully charge and if you position around cover you wont get hit by it.

[@demifolk8940]

you can react in a second, you cannot reposition yourself within a second. literally impossible to do, and it works like road hook where you need to position yourself before so it doesn’t happen to begin with.

[@H4VOK_YT]

@@demifolk8940 lots of characters have movement abilities cass has roll, tracer can blink, illari dash, ashe shotgun immobile characters like zen and ana should be near a corner anyways so they can quickly strafe behind a wall

[@stottpie]

It's an instant stun on a 4 second cooldown

[@H4VOK_YT]

@@stottpie it stuns for like 0.5 seconds but then and again its doomfist's main tool in his kit he needs it to make space on the frontline. Hog has a 6 second cooldown thats a lot less risky to use and does the inverse of doomfist's punch and has the potential to one shot. Also doom punch when not empowered isnt really that good. If doom punch didnt cc he would be the worst hero in the entire game.

[@stottpie]

@@H4VOK_YT it cancels most tank ults and abilities lol. Its way overtuned

[@pelican7235]

look i like your content but can we stop referring to people as “looking autistic” when they get angry. like i know this is the internet but this is a low bar

[@魚-c3d]

Yeah that shit is just not funny. People who say that barely know anything about autism anyway

[@ZoneOutWay2]

Pretty sure he was reading the chat from the video man

[@pelican7235]

@@ZoneOutWay2 so dont let that slide jn your chat either then

[@probablysteven1325]

Aight here’s my ow2 only rework idea for hog (I’m not sure if this would be better for 6v6). Change hogs take a breather back to how it was so it had a cooldown (and lower the damn damage resistance) and make it so that he can’t one shot. Then make it so that his take a breather can give him a charged hook after taking enough damage like doom and the charged hook would allow him to one shot. Then he wouldn’t be able to just kill everyone so often and hog would have to play more around his charged hook rather than his normal hook. Plus while it’s charged it would give people a good visual indicator of when hog can just yetus deletus you

[@魚-c3d]

I think giving hook a charge time before release would be a simpler and more consistent change. However I'm all for take a breather being on CD again + the ability to share breather with an ally that Realth tested on stream

[@probablysteven1325]

@@魚-c3d yeah that’s fair, I’m just looking for the coolness factor tbf