What if Italy Joined the Allies? | Alt History

[@andrefasching1332]

I like this minimalistic concept. Simple Maps, music and text are all that you needed to create good content. Good job!(was a bit to fast for me cus im not that fast at english reading but thats what the pause button is for ^^)

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks, glad you like it, also sorry about the text, I am trying to find a better speed for it

[@brianwalsh9595]

The goodish ending

[@Ovo6638]

Unironically the Best and most peaceful "WW2" Alternative Timeline (Except for Ethiopia, Albania and Austria)

[@danielmichaelfleiss2141]

They did eventually join the Allies in 1944, the year my grandmother Maria Pino Chase was born. She was born on October 7th. Her father Anthony Pino fought alongside the Buffalo All Americans Platoon of the U.S. Army 82nd Airborne and the Buffalo Bills Platoon of the 38th Regiment of the British Canadian Army after defecting from Italy back on August 22nd 1942. He knew my 9 year old grandfather Donald Herold Fleiss III, even before my father Michael Mark Fleiss was barely a drop of water in my grandfather’s bosom.

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Indeed they did. Thanks for your family story, I found it very interesting.

[@tuccerjim3084]

Nice video! Awesome to see that you took my suggestions, and great interpretation of this scenario overall!

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks, glad you liked it, I might make a part 2 if you want, granted I'm not sure whether Italy would do a Spain and go back to being a democracy once its leader (in this case Mussolini) died, or whether Italy would remain a dictatorship

[@tuccerjim3084]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 Honestly it’s up to you whether you feel like continuing or not, I’ll watch anything you put out. In my head I feel like Italy would have pulled a Spain since most Italians weren’t too fond of fascist society itself, they just enjoyed the benefits they got from it (all short term of course since fascism isn’t an ideology that can be sustained more than a few decades). Edit. Typos, sorry, I was tired when I wrote this.

[@andrefasching1332]

@@tuccerjim3084 without getting too political.... Im not sure if facism has no long term benefits. With the Italian system of an elected facist maybe the next one is strictly pacifist but still facist. Facism does not need military expansion to exist. Instead Italy could enter a period of increased education spending and get a technocratic touch. Spain did a spain mostly because everyone hated facism.

[@andrefasching1332]

@Jason Bonaparte yes that was like exactly what i said? No need for your comment

[@andrefasching1332]

@Jason Bonapartethsts the italian system of an elected facist....the same thing i said above. You should consider reading before posting

[@Veriox22]

Very cool! Please do: What if spain joined the axis What if yugoslavia remained in the axis What if britain joined the axis What if bulgaria joined the allies What if spain joined the allies What if turkey joined the allies What if the ussr joined the axis What if france did not fall but fight like britain until the end in ww2

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Sure, I'll get those done, though I've kind of already done the French one.

[@lorenzoilromanooo378]

spain was actually an "axis" member as he was in alliance with germany,italy and he also aided germany might italy but i dont tink so

[@abubakaromer5860]

honestly at this point the soviets sent a letter to germans requesting to join axis at this struggling point they would have accepted and split europe together

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Interesting point, though on the other hand I'm pretty sure that in the 30's Stalin believed that the capitalists would destroy each other in a war and then the Soviets would just mop up what was left, hence it's possible the Soviets just sit and wait.

[@abubakaromer5860]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 emmmm but at same time he sent a letter requesting to fight the allies

[@MattJunewski]

Ending feels a bit unfinished/cut off too soon (at least to me), but i see it understandable. And in that case, i'll try to put up suggestions on what would happen next: Ethiopia (If decolonization happens, not sure if it would in this timeline, dont think it was implied) would split off from Italy, and be the first colony to seccede. But due to Italy's close proximity in that time (thanks to Eritrea and Somalia), it will never become communist, and so the Derg never comes to power = no USSR foothold in East Africa. Somalia, being a colony with large white minority would still declare independence, but might turn into something like Rhodesia. Its hard to predict how this would go, since on one hand, Ethiopia and USSR could easily support the natives, but on the other hand Italy could intervene into the conflict directly (fascism is more accepted in this ideology, so world wouldnt be so hostile against a white minority state). Italy will have its own carnation revolution in the 1980's, becoming democracy. As a result, due to the distance, Eritrea will most likely become independent, being a first white majority state in Africa, while Libya might have a chance to either be independent or be basically ''Italy's Algiers'', or just what the french wanted to do with Algiers (autonomous part of the actual state in africa).

[@gengarzilla1685]

So long as Mussolini's popularity doesn't tank too hard in the Ethiopian guerrilla war, I'd assume fascist rule would continue after his death. Perhaps someone like Italo Balbo takes over as Duce?

[@mrlight0133]

don´t know about Balbo he would be 70 years too. Maybe Ciano? (55years) or in this timeline maybe Grandi.

[@SediAgameRbaD]

Music? Btw great video!

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Italian navy anthem I believe, and thanks

[@SediAgameRbaD]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 thanks!

[@johnwalsh4857]

USA is still semi isolationist, basically maintaining a similiar armed forces from the 30s to present. with teh strongest military arm being the US navy. The USA earlier viewed the Japanese empire as the greatest security concern from the 1900s to 40s, but due to Japan being downgraded in power by its defeats in China and the loss of Korea and prestige and a depressed economy while having a strong navy and good reapproachent by the current gov. have ceased to be seen as a credible threat, the US gov. sees the Soviet and Chinese communists as a growing threat but since both do not have significant naval assets they are not seen as strong threats, anyways they believe the French and British can contain the communists. USA is still conservative and there is still segregation. USA is still the largest economy in the world by far.

[@realdragao6367]

Mussolini: to get revenge on the allies WE WILL JOIN THE ALLIES!!!!

[@supremeleaderdracovish3415]

Idea: What if the white army won the Russian civil War

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Nice idea, I'll get it done

[@tanapatyangkaew4649]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 but what about Sternberg if he not die in 1921 if he allies with Japan

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

I don't really know about that tbh

[@tanapatyangkaew4649]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 well i can explain Sternberg is a Russian warlord for White army in 1921 Sternberg and this force take Mongolia from China and reinstall Bogd khan but sadly on September 1921 his force try to protect the Mongolia form Soviets they captured Sternberg and executed

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Cool, so from that I could make a Mongol empire video too.

[@dismantledhenry5006]

BTW I love when the countryball stares at me, it gives me joy for some reason

[@kucingsedihjojofan1428]

Mussolini would meet Gaddafi or something

[@juanmasingh]

Basically The Footprint of Mussolini but earlier

[@gengarzilla1685]

And without him having a soft spot for Jews.

[@CAProductions051]

You just earned a new subscriber

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thank you so much

[@CAProductions051]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 no problem! keep up the great work

[@JuanFernandez-dl9ok]

This might be your best video yet

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Wow thanks, glad you enjoyed

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

@Jason Bonaparte thanks

[@boikart8694]

Good vid man

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks

[@philipsalama8083]

I think the main problem this Italy would have would be money. The Ethiopian colony was unprofitable by a massive margin - it practically bled money. Losing Ethiopia in WW2 actually helped Italy's finances. In this scenario, though they're stuck with the place - even if they give it independence, Italy's prestige would mean they have to support the puppet government they put in office - it would be a humiliation if Haile Selassie took power again. Combining admin costs with the cost of a guerilla war? I could see a fiscal crisis toppling the government, and the king removing Mussolini from office.

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

If I were to ever make a part 2, that's probably how it'd go.

[@italoduarte2509]

I like the song

[@troopersteve2992]

I think the video is nice and was done very well, I only care to argue about the amount Italy would have been given to join as Mussolini was pressing both France and Britain to give Italy their land i East Africa and Tunisia as well as Malta, (France and Britain during the negotiations I read did a lot of compromising or the other while refusing to give their own land and rather prepare for war with Italy as they where not friendly with Mussolini wanting to make Italy a power) I would rather say if Britain and France agreed to Italy's claims on their holds in East Africa along with allowing passage through the Suez Canal (another issue Mussolini made a primary demand), along with at the minimum part of Tunisia, Mussolini would have agreed as long as the land offered was good enough as an opportunity, I also argue Italy would still allow Germany to take part of Czechoslovakia but would if that was their limit prepare for war on the Alpine border of Germany, I see more of an invasion later on after Poland is invaded or when Hitler later invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia, I see the people not only as well overthrowing Hitler but a military coup,( With this slightly different placement of the date, the alliance of Italy,France, and Britain should be stronger and Germany would be much less defended with all of their main troops deployed to the Polish front. This would change only a few things with Germany possibly keeping the original given land of Czechoslovakia and rights of Dazing in Poland with German areas.) This new scenario also paves way for a Soviet Western War against the Soviet Union and a combination of Poland, Italy, France, Britain, and possibly now surrendered and un-nazified Germany but that is to iffy. Finland would join in to take back their lost land from the Soviets along with the Little Entite who all lost land to them and Ukraine might be liberated as a result and the Soviet Union may shrink in size at a peace treaty. Your claim on Mussolini growing in popularity and fascism remaining redeemed would remain but also grow, (a problem some of the groups had was Hitler spreading Nazism to some fascist parties, without them now and the horrors of the internment camps open to the public, it would cause that to shrink and many of the fascist movements would remain solely fascist), with the now growing influence of fascism around the world will continue which will be affected in some places mostly upon local politics but most likely in Britain we can see a rise of Oswald Mosley with a less national socialist need and needed foreign funding from fascist Italy, along with a look of a high potential invasion of France for the remainder of their colonial holds in Africa and the Italian irrealist parts in the South East which ends at around Lyon with Corsica going to Italy and Spain probably joining or Morocco and Splitting Algeria in probably 1943-1945 as for when the war would happen when Italy is more modernized and Spain has at least partly recovered from the Civil War. In Asia I would see it lining up the same as you said it would except I would see Japan possibly attempting to claim some French holds especially Indochina during the period where it would collapse or go to war, and a potential invasion of the Soviet Union not being able to attack anyone else in the scenario as France and Britain are not worth fighting if they are winning. I do see China turning into a fascist takeover by the blueshirts if the Communists are either during the Soviet War attacked or afterwards by the nationalists and Italy having a small forgotten section of influence with the nationalists taking their side possibly for a stable fascist Chinese ally to trade with and stabilizing the protection of Italian city holds in China (Italy had two.). I also see Africa going better under Italy as the rule of the colonies was not like the other ones and Libya would be modernized and East Africa possibly a new colony being named and formed to unite it as Ethiopia had a lot of local issues being a former slave state and with Italian-Abyssinian war tension on both sides making it harder and longer to successfully colonize in the long term. I do see Italy with rising issues in their taken land for Algeria and the return of rebellious Libyan tribes and I do see the rise of Gaddafi still happening but as a member of the Muslim fascist party and further working with Italy as it is not the Italy or fascist his era heard of in the 50's and would have better ties. I also see the Middle East becoming free and uniting under support from Italy as they had supported the idea of a united Middle East with Yemen and Persia before and the reason Turkey was unoccupied which would make Islamist's friendlier especially with no support of other regimes with Italy being the dominate power in the area alongside if anyone an independent India. Eventually I do see an Israel nation being formed but less with Western backing and an eventual merging with Palestine into Isrealstine as Gaddafi had suggested being the only solution to unite and no cold war to divide the two nations with no real West to threaten influence in the Middle East other than Italy who supported them being free. This is what I view as what would happen but then again we never shall really know will we? I do still very much enjoy the video as it is well done and tries it's best to be accurate with what would happen.

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks for your comment, Yeah I agree with you on the concessions probably being too little, I just couldn't see Britain and France conceding and Somaliland seemed like the only thing worthless enough that they might give it away, and I think your ideas for the middle east and Africa are pretty interesting.

[@Oldaccount46282]

Nice work 🌹

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks

[@rais1685]

Idea : What if Arabia was formed after WW1

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Sure I'll get it done

[@Brady_Dzanaj]

This is a interesting and great video

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed

[@salvini2809]

I'm waiting for part 2. The leader who takes the place of Mussolini may be Azzuro Ciano

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Maybe

[@gengarzilla1685]

I'm thinking this timeline would wave away Italo Balbo's death from our timeline, so he's another candidate.

[@fkjl4717]

This scenario feels empty. Like what changes about France and UK? Also why USSR kinda fall ASLEEP? They at least would take Baltics and press for Bessarabia and Eastern Poland. Also you got a mistake: Hungary never was a part of Little Entente. Also the Little Entente kinda died out to 1936 due disputes between it s members.

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Hungary wasn't part of the little Entente in the world (unless I accidently typed that) it just allies with them later to gain international favour. USSR is asleep as it had no chance to expand west and there's no Molotov Ribbentrop pact and the allies defeat Germany quickly, I was kind of thinking of including the USSR more in part 2 but as of yet I haven't got round to that.

[@Jman-hx1fr]

Do a what if Berlin Moscow pact I feel if this had happened USA woulda had no choice but to join the war sooner and more axis powers like Japan or maybe even italy/ Romania would have maybe joined ally’s rather then fight with communists also neutral nations like spain /Sweden maybe would have joined the war cuz without a doubt they woulda wanted the whole world between the two of them or at least all of Europe

[@PaoloCavestro-ey9bb]

What if Italy had adopted the cult of Makima, Revy, Cutie Honey, Marin Kitagawa, Trixie Tang, Judy Neutron, Marge Simpson, Wendy Corduroy, Lois Griffin, Sailor Moon and Maddie Fenton instead of Abrahamic shit?

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

?

[@noab2265]

Good video 👍

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks

[@alejandroarroyo5124]

The main change in this scenario is that it wouldn't stain the name of fascism

[@JustinTheLogoKid]

the timeline we want (or deserve)

[@dismantledhenry5006]

Cool

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks

[@bentleyshay]

Nice

[@MinecraftMemes222]

Excellent, though I find the Italians winning the Italian ethiopian war would be misunderstood due to ethiopia having the great mountains known as the ethiopian Highlands stopping Italian forces from expanding, but good vid tho

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks, if I ever make a part 2, Ethiopia is probably liberating itself.

[@johnwalsh4857]

Japan's economy while recovering is still in a depressed state, the damage to the economy by nearly two decades long wars in China and Korea really damaged the Japanese economy as well as relations with the other great powers. the economy is recovering due to good reapproachment to the western powers, however the Japanese gov. has to contend with poltiical chaos as the militarists while dicredited are still trying to get back into power, assasinations of Japanese gov. and military officials are common as well as purges of the Japanese military and gov. of militarists. There are fears of possible coup attempts and civil war along with public discontent. The Japanese mlitary and police have not only to suppress the right wing militarist but also left wing revolutionaries who are calling for overthrow of the gov. , banning of the imperial system and establishment of a socialist republic. The Japanese emperor is still hirohito. however he is kept in very heavy guard as there are been multiple assasination attempts on him and he is seen as the only power keeping the current gov. in power. Outwardly, the Japanese gov. sees the Soviet and Chinese communists as existential threats and fears an invasion from them that is why the Japanese navy is still kept up to strength, the Japanese army has been much demobilized since the Navy influenced Japanese gov. much does not trust the Japanese army. and prefers to keep it at a weakened state.

[@abu-faasfalluulle6943]

great

[@black1837]

Fun Fact:Italy actually joined in allies

[@canthi109]

yes

[@gengarzilla1685]

It was a civil war, one side joined the Allies and the other was a German puppet. This is if the whole of Italy joined.

[@black1837]

@@gengarzilla1685 im meaning they alr surrender when allied troops landed in italy and didnt fight but german reinforcement arrives

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

Interesting scenario, though I think Hitler gave up too easily in it, guy was pretty radical and radicalized the masses, I think there would be more to the NSDAP being ousted than "The people lost faith in the regime and Hitler was ousted." considering there were still tens of millions loyal to the regime even in 1945 when the entire country was destroyed and the regime was falling apart. I think a more realistic scenario to the "Hitler problem" would be a coup within the party. I could easily see someone like Goring do something like that then use Hitler as a scapegoat for the warmongering. With "world" war two not having happened, and the "cause" of this small war (Hitler) being ousted, and no shock from the tens of millions dead, it's unlikely the NSDAP itself would have been touched as it would create too much instability in central Europe, and the West would see it as an ally against the growing USSR, much like with Franco. Britain may push for punishing Germany harder though since part of their objective after WW1 (and really ever since tbh if you look at their objections during reunification) was to keep Germany economically crippled, which this would not really do.

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks for the comment, you're comments on how they got rid of Hitler are probably quite probable, (I personally saw him being assassinated by the army, if you look into it there were some generals who were considering this if the whole Sudetenland issue didn't go their way. I could still see them banning the NSDAP, granted, with Mussolini sitting at the victors table I doubt they'd end up banning all fascist parties, thus making it quite possible that another party would be created. Then again, Mussolini wasn't the biggest fan of the NSDAP regime, so I think he may have been sympathetic to removing it, perhaps installing a more moderate fascist government more akin to the one in Italy and Spain than the one we saw in our world. Britain would give out some punishment without a doubt, its policy doesn't specifically relate to Germany but more to whoever is the "top dog" of Europe at the time, whoever it is, the British will try find some way to weaken them.

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 Yeah certainly think Britain would push for punishment, during Imperial mode they were very hostile to rivals. The only reason the US was spared this was because "giving" the US hegemony over the Americas saved them tons of money and would be in the hands of someone with similar values (Even if the US and UK were on "meh" terms until WW1, Britain was still "better the States' than the French/Germs/Russians/etc.). As for the NSDAP, it could have forced reforms making it a fascist-lite party, outright removing them would have caused a lot of outrage in Germany (in the late-30s at least), and people were still weary of the last time that happened after WW1. I don't know, it's an interesting scenario, way more than the overdone "What is Axis won WW2?" scenario.

[@volbound1700]

I think the victories also drove Hitler's popularity. Hitler was at his height after the Fall of France from a political perspective. He basically undid the WW1 defeat in the eyes of the Germans at that point and had very little critics left. This early in time, Hitler wasn't as popular.

[@gengarzilla1685]

Hitler wasn't invincible until he brought down the French. In fact, there was a group of dissident officers who were prepared to attempt a coup if Hitler declared war over the Sudetenland. The Oster Conspiracy is an example of how Hitler's position was never totally secure while France stood next door to him.

[@johnwalsh4857]

Beria and Mao actually get along , Beria while not as crazy as Stalin is quite efficient, strengthens the Red Army with a view towards taking out his current main enemy, Western Europe. Mao views kicking out the Western colonials out of Asia and recovering Chinese territory from the Japanese. The French and British still maintain a more or less stable hold on their colonies with India becoming more restive. the Italians have political chaos after Mussolini dies, the Japanese have a reapproachment with teh west downsizes their military and focuses on economic repair . USA is still more or less isolationist. that is the situation for 1958.

[@Fllippa00]

elo, very gud video

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thank you

[@johnwalsh4857]

my take on the USSR it focuses to take out its worst threat which is Japan. USSR increases aid to KMT China , USA, France, GB , Italy all give aid to the KMT. USSR develops transporation and logistics to its Far East territories increases troops deployments rapidly. USSR wins Nomonhan in 1939. While Japanese are scared of the USSR they are also scared of possible French and British intervention with an early end to the war in Europe. French and British increase their military deployments in the Far East. Meanwhile bloody stalemate in China. Japan tries to defeat the KMT in a series of major offensives which fail. Japanese cannot cut supply lines to the KMT as the supplies go thru French Indochina and Burma. naval tensions between Japan and GB/France. Continuing border clashes between USSR and Japan prove Japan is woefully underequipped for a major war with teh USSR. So Japan deploys more troops in Manchuria and Korea and prepares for a defensive war. By 1945, Japanese economy is shambles, food shortages, depressed economy in ruins a million or more dead in China in a bloody stalemate. along with a more hostile and aggressive USSR . and the KMT military is actually improving , getting better at fighting and getting better equipment. Japanese rely more on mass use of chemical weapons to keep the Chinese at bay. The Japanese are getting desperate to end the war. After a major japaense offensive, the biggest in the war proves to be a failure , the new more aggressive japanese gov. tries to cut supplies to the Chinese by trying to intercept weapons shipments in the sea and trying to cut the overland supply routes to the USSR. this results in naval clashes with GB and France and a round of border wars with teh USSR. The Americans , French, and British impose embargoes on Japan, as well as mroe deployments of French and Britsih troops to the far east Soviets prepare for war. There is a navy backed coup in Japan , chaos in Japan. USSR and the KMT chinese initiate an combined offensive vs. the Japanese , massive Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1948. War ends in 1950. With the USSR taking Manchuria and the Japanese getting out of China altogether. Japan has two remaining major colonies in Formosa and Korea. The USSR occupaton of manchuria USSR aids CCP vs. KMT. A reformed Japanese gov. under the navy allies with teh west. CCP wins Chinese civil war in 1954. CCP invasion of Korea. in 1956, 3rd Sino Japanese war over Korea. USSR massively aids the Chinese. Stalin dies in 1953 , replaced by Beria. 1958, Japanese withdraw from Korea. However keep control of Hainan. and Formosa after attempted Chinese invasions result in disaster for the Chinese.

[@U87-z2w]

I dont think he would declare war untill france and britain do it first.

[@ILikeHistory1444]

Basically what if it was all perfect

[@Pigraider268]

I don't think Hitler would be executed if he, in this timeline, really did nothing wrong. Wars like that happened in Interbellum Europe all the time. He could still be dismissed/abolished tho

[@gengarzilla1685]

The guy preferred to kill himself rather than see Germany fall to anti-nazi forces in our timeline. Why would that be different here? You'd be right that he isn't executed, but only because he's beaten them to it.

[@jacobonate2859]

Music?

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

I'm not sure on this one, it's either an Italian ww2 navy song or the old national anthem

[@arcsoned1112]

Idea: what if Yugoslavia stayed in the axis

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Ok I'll get it done

[@arcsoned1112]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 idk if it would make a big difference during the war, but yeah

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

I'll look into it and maybe it will

[@gengarzilla1685]

I feel like there would still be disputes between Yugoslavia and Bulgaria regarding both the Slavic and Greek regions of Macedonia. An outright fascist or just fascist influenced Yugoslavia could want both under the pretext of "Macedons are Slavs" and Bulgaria would of course claim both as lost Bulgarian territory. Of course though, I'd be interested in seeing what compromise solutions come about.

[@johnwalsh4857]

Miltary wise, due to no WW2, Military tech on average is retarded by 1958 by 10-15 years compared to OTL. the strongest military in the world is the USSR by far, armed with thousands of T-34s and KV-3s, IL-2s, their British, Italian and French counterparts while having an armoured mechanized doctrine are a bit less developed than that of the USSR. The Chinese communists have a massive amounts of mobilized manpower and while the typical Chinese soldier is not as well equipped as their Soviet counterparts, they have better quality and training and good at guerilla infiltration night fighting techniques which were honed during their wars with the Japanese and the KMT. While the French , German and British have jet fighters in their air forces, its late 1940s quality jets. The Soviets are starting to bring out their own jets. in deployments, the Soviets by 1958 are starting to increase military deployments facing Poland and Persia, Chinese have massively deployed facing , Hong Kong, French Indochina and British Burma and India. There are tensions and border clashes. Also the Chinese and Soviets are supporting the insurgent groups in India, Burma and French Indochina. , and Malaya. Sensing weakness in the western powers. the Soviets and Chinese have tabled 1960 to be the start of their military offensives against them.

[@johnwalsh4857]

There would be a ww2, however it would happen, in 1960 Intial Soviet Chinese Pact(also includes Mongolia and newly formed People's republic of Korea). coordinated offensives through USSR: Poland and Persia. China: India , Burma, French Indochina. Brits, Germans, Italian and French allies would join the war. USA would be neutral but doing lend lease to the allies. Japan would be neutral but supplying the Allies. Soviets would have a bit superior mechanized forces and a superior blitzkrieg style(Deep Battle) doctrine. Chinese have the manpower and superior infantry based semi guerilla infiltration doctrine. also Chinese and Soviet pact troops many are experienced in wars against the Japanese. The allies havent been in a major war since 1940. Allies are much superior at sea, and have more advanced air forces(largely switched to Jet fighters) thought the USSR air force are prop driven , they have superior numbers of planes. Also Allies are a bit more advanced in electronic, communications.

[@conflagrantcortex8577]

I can assure you that Italy never joined the allies. Look it up. How can you even ask such a question?

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

It's called ALTERNATE history.

[@Lukdnuke_Narson]

Neat

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Thanks

[@lijger1]

No war or demands on Yugoslavia?

[@a1abena1a]

Don’t really get how Italy alone would have completely changed the war and destroyed Germany I feel like they would have gotten the same treatment as France irl and fall under German occupation

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Germany in 1938 was nowhere near as powerful as it was a year later (they got a lot of stuff from Czechoslovakia).

[@a1abena1a]

Ye fair but I feel like they’d atleast put up more of a fight

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

@@a1abena1a Depends, my map of their invasion of Czechoslovakia is a bit misleading as in real life that's where all the Czech's established defensive positions were, so the Germans would've had a hard time dealing with that, plus they'll France and Britain on the western border, Italy to the South and the rest of the little Entente to the east, the Germans would effectively be fighting a three front war, and as mentioned the Wehrmacht of 1938 was a far cry from the Wehrmacht of 1939 and 1940, Germany could do a bit better than shown here but I severely doubt that they'd win, (an opinion shared by a fair few German higher ups in otl, for more info look into the Oster Conspiracy)

[@a1abena1a]

Aight ye fair ig

[@a1abena1a]

Still though forgot to say this but good map

[@elmexo4375]

What if Britain joined the axis with Mosely as its leader

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Seems unlikely but I'll try make it

[@elmexo4375]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 kzbin.info/www/bejne/aWHRlXh9atdmiZY you could base if off of this. Just an idea.

[@gengarzilla1685]

I wonder... Mosley and Mussolini had _very_ cordial relations and significant ideological similarities. Would it instead be possible that they'd establish their own joint alliance between Britain and Italy to oppose German expansionism? From a strategic sense, preventing the Rome-Berlin Axis and securing a Rome-London one instead would also free up servicemen who'd normally have to defend North Africa and the Mediterranean. It seems more logistical than joining Dolfy's Bizarre Adventure.

[@Lord_Sarlix07]

And what if they sold out Britan for Germany

[@USSFFRU]

What if Finland went Fascist and joined the Axis early What if Iran joined the Allie- Oh wait that doesnt change anything... What if Japan lost the Russo-Japanese War (Unless you can't)

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Sure I'll get them made

[@USSFFRU]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 pog

[@Vreativeboy]

He switched to allies

[@gengarzilla1685]

No he didn't. That was a civil war and Mussolini nominally ran the side subordinate to Germany.

[@warthog7348]

the good ending

[@gengarzilla1685]

It seems more neutral. This is still a timeline where Italian fascism successfully broke from the Nazis and continued to exist until at least 1957.

[@aOldRustyTruck]

would japan not still attack the USA?

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Depends how suicidal they feel, since in this world they'd have to fight Britain, France and the Netherlands as well, all of which would not have been weakened by the Germans. I imagine the Japanese would've focused more on China for a while, after that, who knows?

[@gengarzilla1685]

In this scenario, I think being shut out from most of Europe would make Stalin more aggressive in Asia. Perhaps there's an outright war between the USSR and Japan?

[@aldrencabico5270]

October 13 1943 Italy officially switched on allies and betrayed germany

[@gengarzilla1685]

That was just the anti-fascist side in the civil war. This is the real deal "Italy joins the Allies" scenario.

[@itsupportpropertymasters1679]

The allies would have lose

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Fortunately for the allies they're fighting in 1938 not 1939

[@abu-faasfalluulle6943]

grear

[@flameyy7938]

Hey Poland would join

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

Maybe

[@gengarzilla1685]

Poland and Czechoslovakia weren't particularly close. It's why Poland wasn't in the Little Entente.

[@ObjectorOfThings]

The true winner is Romania

[@hadilol]

Italy would've been backstabbed again

[@gengarzilla1685]

They got what was promised here, British Somalia and control over Austria. No mutilated victory this time.

[@miguelangelgarcia1916]

Italy ACTUALLY joined the allies

[@coopereddie9612]

It was later in the war and was in civil war

[@MTRON-lq3rx]

Road to 56 time

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

?

[@MTRON-lq3rx]

@@patrioticbritishmapper8352 Its a mod of Hearts of Iron IV where you can ally with France and UK as Italy

[@patrioticbritishmapper8352]

oh right

[@vamsigaming1233]

too bad india will not get its independence

[@frankrechter8113]

I am sorry to spoil this to u but… italy was gonna be a weak nation no matter what

[@francescotrombetta8548]

Ehm no

[@gengarzilla1685]

They didn't _need_ to do much militarily. Heck, it's France who deals the final blow here by pressing the other two Little Entente members to join in. Italy's role in this alternate history was pull arch-appeasers Britain and France into the 1938 war.