What if Latin America was Rich?

[@thevoidlookspretty7079]

I love Panama’s resource being “Canal.” Okay, Mexico is mixed, Argentina is agricultural, Brazil has cash crops, Panama has- CANAL. Yes, but there has to be something else- *CANAL.*

[@TheAnimeHistorian220]

ah yes, my favourite rare resource. C A N A L

[@dickprick5044]

I mean, it's not wrong

[@TheAnimeHistorian220]

@@dickprick5044 yeah, youre right, but its not really the first thing i think of when i think "rare resource", its more of a service of sorts

[@KonekoD]

Trade ports/connections are important! Such cities can have fantastic economies. If alt-Panama worked to maintain their interest in protecting trade on sea and land, maybe they would be a major contender later on.

[@Ida-xe8pg]

*_THE CANAL_*

[@th3omachos]

"Why is Latin America poor?" Whatifalthist guy: The Spanish Brazil: **CONFUSED SCREAMING**

[@DanielDiaz-cl9rk]

The portuguese: I am a joke to you?

[@reyne2878]

Brazil is the regional superpower, was able to remain united (unlike Spanish America), was on its way to becoming a super power until their very successful Empire was couped by Greedy military. Portugal gave Brazil the tools needed to become a superpower, and the Brazilians were simply unlucky.

[@th3omachos]

@@reyne2878 I'm really not certain what fucked my country up, i don't know if ot was the lack of indutrialization or simply the geography of the mountains that stop the contact between the coast and the Cerrado. And, if the former is to blame, i really don't know if it was the empire or the early brazilian republic, sometimes i believe it was the latter, because of the whole coffe with milk policies and the Funding loan bullshit, but the monarchy wasn't also so fond of reforming the economy.

[@r.ladaria135]

Just ask Argentina. At the rise of the XX century was one of the welthies country in the world.

[@victorflisch]

What about us?! Haha We are part of Latin America too

[@joaomartins9800]

1:03 you are wrong. Latin America has many similarities with Southern Europe: more agrarian and less industrialized than it's northern neighbors; Their governments were also relatively authoritarian and religious (both Spain and Portugal suffered from dictatorships until the end of the 70s). Edit: thank you. I really like your channel and just thought you kind of contradict yourself by saying Latin American countries aren't similar to Western Europe, when you showed in this same video some examples on how they are pretty similar to their western european colonizers of Spain (the democratic and relatively liberal Spain is quite a recent development).

[@emperorconstantinexipalaio4121]

Massive respect to him for owning up to that and giving your comment the heart tho. Whatta man!

[@benjamingrezik373]

he said western europe not southern Europe

[@TheRealSU24]

@@benjamingrezik373 I mean, western europe can still contain the south.

[@benjamingrezik373]

@@TheRealSU24 that's not the traditional definition of western europe. western europe is france and england and the low countries. northern europe is Denmark and Scandinavia. central europe is germany Austria Poland and Hungary. eastern europe is everything east of poland and Hungary. and southern europe is Iberia. italy. greece. Albania. etc. Balkans are the Balkans

[@TheRealSU24]

@@benjamingrezik373 Yeah, but if you look at Europe from Ukraine, Spain is to the west. Checkmate atheist

[@SacredCowStockyards]

So, I think there's ONE good thing about patronage: Art is better when artists are sponsored by patrons rather than essentially being publicly hired. Italy, Spain, France, all had magnificent art compared to Northern Europe.

[@Crick1952]

The happy medium is the Netherlands. A society of both meritocratic advancement and patronage thus home to a strong merchant class and beautiful art.

[@MrMakabar]

Merchant epublics can do the same thing. Florence is the birth place of the Renaiscesse for a reason and Venice also has produced great art. Northern Europe has mostly bad soil and was not as densly populated.

[@hanoi9316]

Art comes from the Spirit .Patronage only sponsors artists that boasts the patron s ego or it is ideological art .

[@ktoth29]

The northern renaissance is not as widely celebrated but just as influential. Granted they didn't have the catholic church commissioning massive fresco's but they had plenty of private commissions.

[@commandermcnash5137]

I suppose it's harder to promote furry for adults when you are some tycoon trying to impress the proles and rivals.

[@elguerotapatio9258]

I think that calling Latin america as a whole "poor" is a bit unfair when relative to other countries. While instability is fair as unlike many other nations in the west, latin american nations suffered through years of instability, coups and civil wars ending in at best like in Mexico, Uruguay and Costa Rica, the early to mid 20th century, and at worst, like nearly everyone else, the late 20th century. Many nations have stable economies and decent standards of living.

[@shiny_teddiursa]

El Güero Tapatío good standards of living are only in the larger cities tho, when i visit peru, majority of people in rural areas or even in the city outskirts don’t even have fridges (and peru is considered high in human development) or other appliances we think are common household stuff in the united states, the main problem is corruption & wealth inequality, most hispanic countries can gradually solve this and raise their country to first world status with economic reforms that reduce the informal economy. But idk i’m no economist, so idk how those reforms would be implemented, but the resources & population are there, our governments are just incompetent & corrupt, as always.

[@elguerotapatio9258]

@@shiny_teddiursa Yeah, I didn't say they were rich, but they aren't quite poor, they're in this weird limbo of wealth and development

[@gebdemedici]

@@elguerotapatio9258 It's almost as if there's a medium point between being fully industrialized and 1st-world and being poor.

[@elguerotapatio9258]

@@gebdemedici No there isn't really a term for it, I guess newly developed countries kinda works, but not really. Developing and 3rd World don't really work either since they're usually used for poor nations

[@santacatarinaball7091]

Yeah

[@maxnp847]

Lots of love for these south and Central American alternate histories from an Australian! all so fascinating!

[@TheAnimeHistorian220]

S>|NvHL '>|O

[@diegodesouza5382]

69th like lol

[@hehector96]

Hi from Costa Rica! Australia is also fascinating!

[@JustinianG]

U might be interested in this timeline I made. it's basically the Greek equivalent to this one. I made Greece much richer and I expanded it's borders to the size of Tunisia kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@JustinianG]

@@TheAnimeHistorian220 U might be interested in this timeline I made. it's basically the Greek equivalent to this one. I made Greece much richer and I expanded it's borders to the size of Tunisia kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@BloodRider1914]

Latin America isn't poor. It's overall Middle-class as far as economies go, not amazing, but there are certainly worse places to live

[@quisqueyanguy120]

Yeah. Most latin american economies are average and almost all latin american countries are industrializing in one way or another. People tend to forget that Western Europe, Anglo North America and Eastern Asia are not the norm.

[@shiny_teddiursa]

BloodRider 1914 our countries aren’t poor, its just that wealth inequality & government corruption are so ingrained that it’s embarrassing, living in northern virginia and visiting peru really opened my eyes to this. The suburbs & rural areas of the US are all developed and almost everyone has common appliances like fridges and flatscreens, but in peru, only the cities are developed, majority of the rural populace & even people in the city outskirts don’t have a fridge, flatscreen, or even other electronics, and if they do its usually tech from the 80s or 90s.

[@danbezniuc685]

Venezuela would like to disagree

[@casanovaluis5996]

@@shiny_teddiursa As a peruvian myself, I can confirm this. Most places outside the hearth of the capital (Lima) and some turistic places are criminally undeveloped. Perú as a contry was doomed from the start. The colony was only used as a source of gold and wealth, and the native population (which was still a large part of the population) was discriminated and tortured by their opressives overlords. There wasnt too much of a country to build off, and the whole independence war was just a plot of the wealthy criollos (spanish born in america) to obtain more power. Just to put in perspective our level of undevelopment, the semi-feudal system in the rural areas lasted until 1969, kinda recently.

[@cseijifja]

@@casanovaluis5996 a fellow peruvian that knows how it is, we are barely going up now, because most of the population are no longer fucking slaves in haciendas, the middle class is a must in modern countries, and a middle class we are building

[@joaomarcelogaluppo2496]

I can't believe I have to say this, but Brazil is part of Latin America

[@bevbevan6189]

Yeah, the title should have been "What If The Spanish Weren't Such An Incompetent Empire"

[@apossiblyhereticalalphaleg3595]

He said he didn't cover Brazil since he didn't know enough about Portuguese History to cover the impacts of this timeline on Portugal and consequently Brazil, he said he'd do a video specifically on the Portuguese Empire at some point

[@Rudrugo]

He might also think that Brasil was colonized by the spanish!

[@joaomarcelogaluppo2496]

@Wuanslm latin america isn't where latinos come from, it's the parts of america where the romance languages are spoken. But you are right, we do not refer to ourselves as latinos

[@eddie-roo]

Also, all the French speaking countries in the Americas

[@leonarduskarolusiuliustant7498]

One of the reasons why Southern European countries industrialized later was that they had very little fossil fuels, especially coal. This is the case with Italy, which as a result has always been economically dependent on importations from other countries (especially Great Britain and Germany, until oil replaced coal as the main fossil fuel) in order to make its industrial economy work. The Netherlands have heen majority Protestants until very recent times, so by your logic they should have industrialized before Belgium, which has always been majority Catholic. But Belgium industrialized before the Netherlands and more than the Netherlands, because its territory has lots of coal basins. This seems to indicate that religion has little or no impact on industrialization.

[@alejandroojeda1572]

Leonardus Karolus Iulius Tantius oh no, youre contradicting his sacred religion based bias 😱😱😱😱 HOW COULD YOU 😂

[@NovaSoldier]

Also, isnt the us majority catholic?

[@leonarduskarolusiuliustant7498]

@@NovaSoldier I think the Catholic Church is the major Christian denomination in the USA, but if you put all the Protestant denominations together they are still the majority.

[@absolutelynothing3621]

OMG I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS VIDEO SINCE YOU MENTIONED YOU'D DO IT SEVERAL YEARS AGO!!!!!!

[@WhatifAltHist]

I've been a but slow on this. I needed to read up Latin history.

[@hadtrio6629]

@@WhatifAltHist hey I have this 2 scenarios I always wanted to see can you do them for me please 1 What if the Scandinavians in the beginning of the viking age were all united and started a conquest on Europe like the mongols or the Arabs 2 What if the USSR joined the axis instead of the allies & what if this unlikely alliance won & there was a cold war between Nazi Germany & soviet Russia how would it look like

@@hadtrio6629 USSR with the axis? lmao ok

[@hadtrio6629]

@ I know but it's possible if the allies declared war on them both when they invaded Poland

[@martiny.9366]

@@hadtrio6629 The thing is the USSR actually tried to join the axis, but Hitler was already planning to invade them so the couldn't. I don't remember what excuse did Hitler use.

[@danperalta8952]

As a Sonoran that map of a giant Sonora made me click on this video.

[@M4t3oR4ng3l-xm8tl]

También 😃

[@italianbourgeois2926]

"Sorry for destroying ur awesome history" Bro, just talking about us and showing our "continent" to the rest of the world is already a bless, thank you :D

[@sephikong8323]

>Name is ItalianBall >Is from South America Ah I get it, you're from the Italian colony known as Argentina right ?

[@sehr.geheim]

@@sephikong8323 So true

[@untitledjuan2849]

I just wished the video wasn't so biased

[@italianbourgeois2926]

@@sephikong8323 lol im from the other italian settlement on the north, the natives call it Brazil

[@sephikong8323]

@@italianbourgeois2926 Damn it, I tried. It was 50/50 between Argentina and southern Brazil I lost it :(

[@undwenndumichkusst]

Ok, you mentioned you didn't know what would happen in Brazil. Well... Untill 1580, Brazilian colonists were basically restricted to the coast and whatever was east of the Tordesillas line. In in the end of the 1570's there was a succession crisis in Portugal because the king died and had no children. But the king of Spain (Phillip I, I think) was married to the king's niece, and was technically in the line of succession. He them took over the government of Portugal and established the euphemism called Iberian Union. Spain took over every aspect of the portguese government including it's colonies. The Brazilian colonists then proceeded to colonize westward, into unknown territory. (There was also a group of people called the Bandeirantes, who explored those lands and made native slaves on the way. The Iberian Union ended I'm 1640. (I don't quite remember how) Now, as Portugal was under the jurisdiction of Spain, wouldn't it be integrated on that colonization method? And perhaps maintain it's ways even after the Union ended? Maybe they would be applied on Brazil, who would see greater progress. Edit: although, Brazil really developed after the Portuguese royal family and royalty fled to it, elevating it to a kingdom. (They created banks, paved roads, build palaces, etc...) But they fled there in the first place because Napoleon invaded the homeland and they needed to flee. As Spain is stronger in this timeline, perhaps Napoleon wouldn't get to take Portugal at all, leaving Brazil undeveloped for much longer.

[@Jv_JoJo]

Great thought!! probably Brasil won't development

[@nicolaszan1845]

Honestly, making Spain this much stronger in the Middle Ages, while definitely possible, makes it near impossible to predict after a few centuries. Speculation is great but we really have no idea of how Brazil would be if Spain was stronger, or what would happen to other colonies, the 7 years war, and more.

[@Mr.Flame2000]

Probably Portugal woundt even separate from Spain in this timeline since the main reason they broke off the union was because the spanish were just draining everything from Portugal, but with the mechants controling the country is possible that Portugal just gets assimilated over time and brazil would end up or declaring Independence or remaining a spanish colony for some more time

[@joaosantiago5717]

I make a comment about this too, probably Portugal would remain in Spanish hands as a minor part of the union like scotland with england or gaining independence in the 20th century, probably Brazil would become too strong in the center/south, northeast probably would split from the rest I really dont know but brazilian history would be so different impossible to predict

[@madmarvshighwaywarrior2870]

By the way that king who formed the union is Philip II, not the first.

[@yagojaenretes7935]

I been watching your videos for quite a time now, and I find them quite entertaining and fun. In addition, I would like to point that you have gained a lot of quality over time and that each video is better that the last. Great improvement for sure! That said, I have noticed in some of your videos that every time the Portuguese or the Spanish empire are treated, you have this estrange image of them being almost failed empires, exporters of decadence, corruption, mistreatment of their subjects and that they destroyed everything they touched. I never commented before on KZbin, but for this video, I wanted to point some characteristics to the Spanish empire and why I find some of your perceptions incorrect or not fair when talking about it. It Is true that in the academic world it has always being the trend to identify the “bad habits” of the Portuguese and Spanish empires, and why the are the reasons of the “failures” of their old colonies. But it is also true that in recent years, more focused and unbiased (modern) works had being done in the matter and started to challenge these assumptions some decades ago. Of course, my arguments are based on these new studies and I will add some of my favorite works on the matter (I will only add work in English) I have to warn you all that the post is very large! So feel free to go just for the bibliography if you find the post boring: P Some interesting bibliography: - By far the one of the best work, I have ever read about the topic. It explain how the empire was not based on an extractive wealth economy and that intercontinental trade was common and necessary for the existence of the empire. It has a very interesting argument about how the collapse of the intercontinental economic system was the origin of the politic unrest (and civil wars and unrest) and not the other way around: www.lse.ac.uk/Economic-History/Assets/Documents/Research/GEHN/GEHNWP23-IrigoinGrafe.pdf - Independence’s effects on the economies of latin American countries eprints.lse.ac.uk/22482/1/wp10.pdf - Economic growth of latin american countries from 1820 to actuality. scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0719-04332011000200001 - Of course, anything written by John Elliot is pure gold and totally unavoidable if you like the topic of the spanish empire. I let here a PDF link to one of the books, but shhh :P cheirif.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/j-h-elliott-imperial-spain_-1469-1716-penguin-books-2002.pdf Now, some of my concerns about some of your points in the video; 1) Latin America does not behave as a western European nation. We could argue about what to “behave as a western European nation” means, but anyways; Of course latin america has slightly different approaches to politics, culture, way of life, and so on, but I’m not sure they cannot be considered as western countries. In fact, their political systems are based on the Presidential system of the USA, and many cultural traits are the same as in Spain o Portugal (with differences, of course). At the end, they are close to the Spanish and Portuguese culture (and vice versa, because a lot of what is now Spain comes from the Imperial period). For example, Latin American history in the XIX century has many similarities with Spanish one. Instability and unrest, constant changes of regimes, civil wars and economic devaluation (notably because of the previous reasons), and civil wars were a common thing in Latin America, but also Spain. In fact XIX century Spain witnessed a sequel of coups, countercoups, civil wars, restorations and constitutional experiment, just like (if not worst) the territories in Latin America In tends to be attributed to the end of the Spanish Empire and the consequent instability that this created. Like the end of the Roman Empire, the loss of governance, legitimacy and political authority was happening in all the territories at the same time and provoked vacuum of powers that made emerged factions that ended up fighting for power and resources. Every part of the empire was now crumbling and fighting for his own piece of land. Even the independence wars happened in different contexts and timings. For example, the Argentinian revolution started because of the will to obtain a more libertarian government (not tolerated by Spain) and avoid commercial tariffs but Mexico’s one really succeeded after the government in Spain enhanced the Liberal Constitution on 1820. Mexican elites saw this liberal constitution as an attack to the “criollo” elites and therefore decided to declare independence to maintain a status quo. As you see, every Latin American country as a different origin history. We could also point out; that during his timeframe, the Spanish Empire in the Americas was quite stable. Not big rebellions, revolts nor independent movements until the French invasion of 1808. That can only be explain if the population was relatively conformed to the situation. We have to think of the elites being okay with the situation but also the lower classes. The backbone of Spanish America, Native Americans and mixed population, seems to have been in consonance with the imperial policies. Of course, revolts happened when taxes were raised and policies not fair, but is IMPOSIBLE to maintain a system during more than 3 centuries without the validation of the subjects. P.S: 2 tiny things I saw that were incorrect or that need a little bit of further information. 1) You mention that the Spaniards enslaved the native population but it was not the real situation. The natives had a different status from other social classes (Peninsulars, creoles, free blacks and slaves) with benefits and downsides. Of course being a white born Spanish was the best and being an slave was utter shit, but neither of the classes had full disadvantages (except, again, slaves). For example, native population could not be touched by the inquisition or they had granted free access (payed by the state) when having to use the Spanish “judicial system” to which they had access to defend themselves (like slaves, they had an status on the system and were able to use some of the benefits of a complex estate). In the bad side? Many things… forced to work for a low salary, had to pay taxes and could not access some post of the Spanish bureaucracy, and a long list of mistreatments. However, at the end of the day, they were not enslaved but integrated in the civic life (for the good or the bad). 2) Casta systems, I have read a lot about them and the general conception in the scholar ambit is that we do not have enough data to confirm is existence. The “casta paintings” do not give information about their existence. In fact, they show a lot about the Spanish American territories; how they lived, what they ate, what they worked on and how they mixed. However, they never showed that a caste system existed. It is sure that differences between the social classes existed, but it seemed closer to the medieval states. The reasoning behind this conception is the fluidity between the classes. In a caste system, it is impossible. For example, in USA or South Africa during the apartheid a black person would be forever a black person. You cannot enter a bathroom only for with people and for sure, you will not be able to become white. he cannot change his legal situation, nor move between the social classes. In the Spanish system, fluidity between these classes existed (they were low). In fact, at the end of the XVIII century, a “mestizo” could pay money and became “white” therefore climbing posts in the social echelon. A similar situation could be found in different Europeans countries were titles of nobility could be purchased by a bourgeois to become a nobleman and gain access to better status and the right to work on some administrative positions. At the end of the day, color or race was not the main issue (a big issue, for sure, but not the driving force) but a secondary one to religion, quality of the family, nobility and status given by your job. That would explain the differences between natives among themselves. Natives that were part of the nobility were excepted to work or to pay taxes and could carry guns and ride horses. In contradiction, low class Spaniards that had to kill themselves on serfdom in Andalucía for a cacique had quite few rights. Best to be from peninsular Spain than a Criollo (bot white, but what matters is the origin), as better to be a Native Nobleman than a low born Spanish in the peninsular Spain, but better to be a peasnt on spain that a native peasant in America.

[@HolyRomanEmpire962-1806]

This gotta be the longest comment I've ever read

[@yagojaenretes7935]

@@HolyRomanEmpire962-1806 :P I really like the topic and wanted to cover many points... At least I hope you liked it!

[@israelmicete295]

Yes bc he red the Spanish black legend built by the English Dutch jealous poor countries.

[@notengocreatividadparaunno1419]

Wrote a whole essay

[@XxLIVRAxX]

Fantastic post 👍

[@crowphoenix1154]

That would mean i would have money Im from México 🇲🇽🇲🇽🇲🇽

[@damdog74]

Mexico is one of the more richer ones

[@somatia350]

If mexico can fix its corruption then it will be super rich and a possible secondary power

[@elguerotapatio9258]

@Heberth Ryan Per Capita they're really just average, not quite rich or poor

[@SacredCowStockyards]

Don't be so sure. I'm American and I'm broke af, I just have nice stuff. 😂

[@mara1978able]

Viva México!!

[@davitxenko]

I love your alternate history videos, but from what I watched in this video and other previous that mention Spain, it looks like all your knowledge about Spanish history comes straight from the black legend. Initially, the premise that the "poverty" of the South American countries is the direct cause of the colonizers of 500 years ago is quite skewed. In addition to other huge mistakes you mention. But I don't take it very seriously, a video from an interesting point of view. Nice job.

[@lechanoine9372]

From what I have heard, the Spanish Inquisition was not quite the big-brother-panopticon it is sometimes thought to be. Mostly they got bogged down by family feuds, wherein people would accuse each other of be secret jews. They didn't have enough men to monitor all places at all times, especially considering the terrain of spain and its colonies.

[@shiny_teddiursa]

davitxenko the spanish black legend mainly focused on the inquisition & their treatment of the natives, grossly exaggerated that is. But this video focuses much more on spains economic administration on their colonies, which were, in fact, run like medieval-feudal isolated kingdoms. That’s the main reason why latin america is poor, majority of our countries informal economy is over 50%, its a snowball of bad spanish administration, with instability, coups, communism, & american imperialism all coming later to contribute to the poverty, but not starting it.

[@condedooku9750]

@@shiny_teddiursa But America has been independent of Spain for 200 years, if in that time you have not been able to raise your head I doubt that it is mainly the fault of Spain, you have not lacked time to change the system, your problem is bad rulers and corruption (as in Spain ), if it weren't for that, Hispanoamerica would be one of the richest regions in the world.

[@maspesasmasperras5554]

@@condedooku9750 you're missing the point that in order to change course, people need to collectively (social cohesion) decide to change. And spain created the worst system possible in Latin America for that to happen.

[@condedooku9750]

@@maspesasmasperras5554 Argentina at the beginning of the 20th century had as much GDP as the United States, Chile is currently not so bad, in New Spain just before its independence the miners earned more money than in any country in Europe, Spain created universities, churches, hospitals. It gave you a European language, it mixed with your population and created a mixed race of people, etc ... Spain has always treated its viceroyalties much better than any colonial power to its colonies, so I repeat that if you are not rich it has more to do with the treacherous slags that gave you independence just to be able to govern as they please Hispanoamerica without thinking about its people (I'm talking about the Creole elites.)

[@inbrief-shorts]

As an Argentine i would consider my people closer to Brazil or USA than to Colombia or Venezuela despite speaking the same language

[@kmilorestre5223]

Argentinas economy is closer to Venezuela and Cuba than anything else.

[@tomasavendanozacarias5205]

@@kmilorestre5223f

[@pedroleuenberger4270]

Ahora la mayoría de los argentinos nos sentimos más cerca a Italia que otro país xd

[@francogiobbimontesanti3826]

As a Brazilian I agree, Argentina is basicaly our wife.

[@Jv_JoJo]

I don't like Argentina, but i have to agree that brasil and Argentina are brothers

[@infamousempire8302]

8:17: To be completely fair, Sterling said it was never about realism and was more of a thought experiment.

[@TapOnX]

But that just seems like a deflection, and not a particularly good one at that. Sure, alternate history is a form of speculative fiction, and not an exact science. However, a well thought-out fictional scenario will always be better than a flimsy one. It is definitely possible to write a great alternate history work of fiction without discussing every detail, or being selective about them (Man in the High Castle, Fatherland...). But I don't think Stirling deserves a pass, since he does provide a detailed alternate history scenario. Just not a particularly good one. That being said, the Draka series is very enjoyable, could be even better if he put more thought into the background.

[@christiandauz3742]

Draka is unrealistic in so many ways. They have alien technology It's like giving Arquebus muskets to the Roman Empire!

[@cipmaster1]

Actually, the British exterminated the people in the places they settled, and didnt mix, thus having no need to deal with cultural differences or new social classes arising. The spanish on the other hand, did create a system wich integrated the indigenous, and greatly mixed with them. Dont forget the army that took the city of Tenochtichlan was mainly indigenous who allied with Cortes to overthrow the Aztecs, which took prisioners from other tribes for sacrifice. The independence of Latin America was greatly supported by the English, and made the american colonies in general poorer than what they where during the spanish empire. Having lost their link with spain and trying to create an independent feel that never existed in the common population ( which in the US did appear), Latin american countries struggled creating a stable goverment

[@galerinha]

"An independent feel that never existed" I think Simon Bolivar would disagree with this statement

[@diegovasquez7610]

The spanish exterminated them too, there's as many natives asthe US outside Peru, Mexico and Bolivia, and in countries like Uruguay or Dominican Republic there's literally zero natives, and mixing with them doesn't make you better, otherwise Australia would be mega progressive since they forced he natives to mix with the europeans. According to the historical GDP per capita, former spanish colonies actually got wealthier after independence, unlike your claim

[@lux2132]

@@diegovasquez7610 Wealthier after 100 years of civil (and unnecessary wars) because everyone wanted power right after snatching it from their parent Spain. I don't believe the richer part, because resources were either exploited by foreign empires or poorly exploited, aswell as having to pay a debt with Britain

[@sanchez_luciano]

@@diegovasquez7610 You’re clearly not hispanic youre gringo fs , the spanish didn’t force no native to mix, they were added to their kingdom and they mixed trough time , did you think the spanish won to all the american empires alone? no they were helped by the natives.

[@juansebastianmarquez4725]

@@diegovasquez7610 Uruguayan natives were exterminated by their own president Fructuoso Rivera and even then there is a lot of population who is descendant of native people, i mean they have native people as an ancestor

[@wartrix6046]

This channel is so underrated, one of my all time favorites.

[@forthepotentates7526]

Because it's shit and Anglo biased

[@JustinianG]

U might be interested in this timeline I made. it's basically the Greek equivalent to this one. I made Greece much richer and I expanded it's borders to the size of Tunisia kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@meneither3834]

@@forthepotentates7526 it is insanely Anglo based and even worse it's full of new world naivety but at least the maps look good.

[@Karim896]

Dude Spain was a massive super power, the reason why latinoamerica it's poor is because they had bad government after the independence. Contries as Argentina, Venezuela o Mexico were very rich but they had wars, dictatorships and bad governments and the brithish colonies did thinks far much better working together.

[@innosam123]

I'm not sure about the population of Latin America being larger. Their Birth Rates are higher in the modern day than the USA, which counteracts a lot of the early advantage. Also, Northern Mexico has horrid geography (minus California) that really make it difficult to make wealthy, especially as an independent state. It's comparable to Afghanistan in terms of geography, and the Americans can use the Mississippi's tributaries to secure all the land in its watershed- taking most of the actually decent land (minus California) and thus still being a global power.

[@WhatifAltHist]

The birth rates were pretty low until the 20th century in most areas, from which they skyrocketed. Sonora would have fertile Southern Texas and the Great Plains and the Rio Grande valley can be used for irrigation.

[@innosam123]

@@WhatifAltHist My argument is that they wouldn't be able to hold the lands (it's much easier to get to there from the American side than the Mexican side), and Sonora would be left with California and the Desert. Texas just isn't defensible in any way, and so you'd be left with a core in California and a comparatively impoverished Sonora. This map shows why: 1drv.ms/u/s!AphyHYpEjmp-gqkS66W7rhZhj6T9Ag?e=HfBQaT Even with the scenario as you made it, the USA minus Texas and California is still a superpower in OTL. Unless they manage to conquer all of the Great Plains.

[@WhatifAltHist]

@@innosam123 Galveston and whatever the port for Laredo is may have become important for naval traffic. You could have easily seen Spanish settlement in Eastern Texas and if they had enough people, they could have held the line from the Comanche and Apache. New Mexico may have worked as a heartland and capital. The center of the colony's original administration may not have been Mexico city, but perhaps instead based out of some port in Texas.

[@innosam123]

@Whatifalthist New Mexico is pretty isolated and difficult to access in the grand scheme of things, esp. without railways- there's no way to get there by boat, leaving only wagons though desert until the invention of the railway. Most of Sonora has the problem South Africa had- no one would really want to live there, even if they could- they’d go to Argentina or America instead. Only California and Texas would be colonized until all their land was gone. It's also important to note so much of California and Texas are only arable due to wide-scale irrigation that may not be available to early settlers. If in Texas, there's no reason the Americans can't just take it over- I mean, they made it all the way to Quebec City in the American Revolution (Canada would have a smaller population, but it's arguably more defensible due to the Great Lakes and St Lawrence). The border with the Americans is also completely indefensible just from sheer size and scale.

[@juanpablootero7433]

northern mexico is full of rich mines which would make Sonora richer, also northeasten mexico has and had arable land

[@glitchy6449]

I've got to say, I wished I lived in this timeline

[@TheAnimeHistorian220]

Same

[@TheMaster4534]

Me too.

[@JustinianG]

@@TheMaster4534 U might be interested in this timeline I made. it's basically the Greek equivalent to this one. I made Greece much richer and I expanded it's borders to the size of Tunisia kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@jimboonie9885]

Yes

[@brunojimenez5169]

same here

[@ladymorwendaebrethil-feani4031]

17:52 - Ironically, this is the most commercially dynamic border region in South America. The border between Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay is currently one of the regions with the greatest economic growth in the three countries, even during the current period of crisis. There are three important cities in the region, one from each country and after the free trade agreements of the Mercosur they are mending and becoming a large metropolitan area. I would say that this region is the equivalent of the border between France, Germany, Belgium and Luxembourg: terrible wars in the past and economic dynamism today. And Uruguay is like the Netherlands in the region (because of legal marijuana). They may be bad frontiers for the past, but today they are excellent frontiers, mainly because they are open.

[@caliboy09]

I’ve been to the border between ARG/BRA/PAR on the Argentina side, there’s monuments on either side of these two rivers that come together there

[@serbarr2087]

@1:15. Till the Pinochet dictatorship, Chile had the 2nd longest standing democracy in the Americas, only surpassed by the US. How ironic that it was the support from the US that ended that streak. @3:30, after WW2, Argentina had the 3rd highest income in the world, only surpassed by the US and Switzerland, and It was all screwed after the 50s. Having taking a comparative Economics Course, where it was touched upon that Latin America has received more aid in the 20th century than Europe had received under the Marshall Plan, having the region seen both leftist and rightist governments, democracies and dictatorships, etc. that one reason that experts can see on why the region has not developed was not the form of colonialism, because once the Spanish were overthrown, the local elites, the Creoles or Criollos took over power and did not share it. One reason for this was that the Criollo, being mixed or European descended, and having access both to economic means and education did not want to share power with the large native american, mestizo and Afro Antillean population. This meant that neither political power nor economic means were distributed (the so called oligarquias). Comparing English colonialism to Spanish colonialism does not explain the differences either, as you can point out the US, Canada, Australia and NZ as success cases, however in all those cases there was small indigenous presence, and huge influx of Europeans settlers, different weather (ie not tropical), as was Argentina (which also fitted that mold and was successful till the 1950s, btw). If you study English colonization of India, Africa, the Caribbean, you find similar or worse outcomes when compared to Latin America. You could argue that the Monroe Doctrine had even worse effect on Latin America in the last 200 years. At the end of the day, Latin America has the means to fully enter the developed world, the only reasons keeping them are only internal, as of the 21st century.

[@innosam123]

Ser Barr He did say the British had a bad record with Native colonies. And TBH, the Mixed Race people would likely be more like Settler Whites if they were treated as such.

[@Riingwraith]

Until 1964 Brazil was about to start a bunch of much needed reforms that would launch our country into a great economic growth, then the US financed a military coup here and we got plunged to a dictatorship that set us back a lot...

[@cseijifja]

the reasons are both external and internal dude, the region drags behind a huge historical bagage that must be dealt with , the instability and weak institutions mainly, hugely because of the turbulence in the 20th century, thanks to USA interventionism and what not, latin america has always been needed to be kept as an open market, but never as a competitor of anything but prime materials, and the USA was made sure it stayed as such until more recently, where debt is the way first world countries move other countries. as to why SA didnt develop as much as NA , the geography absolutely sucks for the continent, beiing basically unhospitable highlands, deep jungles, and the most arid desert in the world after sahara along the western coast. Poor population and a quasi feudal style of goverment stiffled the countries until the 20th century, when , as soon as reforms were being made, the USA started with it's control policies .

[@joacoalva3783]

I am from Argentina, and the fact that Argentina started to lose his strong economy, wasnt the fault of some other country than the same Argentina, you can search the government of "Perón" and see why Argentina comence to fall.

[@KilapnF]

The amount of clichés and prejudices that this guy (of video) has is impressive, he seems like a caricature of the typical gringo who thinks he is more democratic and civilized than anyone else. First of all it is pathetic to speak of Latin America for colonial times, you should use the concept of Hispano-America or Hispanic world (if you want to include the Philippines). Second, everyone knows that the development of a country does not have a particular origin, it is something multicausal, not only the economic system or culture influences, but also geography (Hispano-America is further away than the 13 colonies of Europe and therefore more far from the economic center, tropical climates are harsher for human life than temperate climates, there are great natural borders such as the Atacama or the Andes, etc.) or the 'devenir historico' (the wars of independence were much more destructive in hispanicamerica, besides became independent and divided into many countries which made them easier to control by the great powers). The most ridiculous thing is when he speaks critically of the slavery of indigenous people but later speaks of the slavery of blacks as the foundation for a successful capitalism centered on sugar. Or when he talks about repopulating with Europeans areas that were not even governed by Spain (southern Chile). On top of that, these ideas were put into practice by the Bourbons in their reforms and that of export capitalism has been practiced from 1788 onwards practically throughout the Hispanic world, except for brief periods of time. Finally, the transcendence of the caste system is a myth, it existed more in paintings than in reality, all modern historians agree on that, nobility or honor could be both in race and in individual merit. By the way, it was the United States, the country that is so striving for the freedom of its citizens to emerge, is the that had benches for blacks and benches for white only a few decades ago.

[@piquedo9301]

Sadly, this video contains a lot of historical inaccurate arguments, specially against the Spanish and while I see and praise the effort of the author to inform himself, as a Hispanic historian myself, I see this video is another example of the black legend against the Spanish. I could write many examples, but going straight to the point: - Why does the author compare Spanish colonies to the USA? Wasn’t for example, Jamaica a British colony? Or Haiti a french one? Are these ex colonies in a better position than the former Spanish ones? Or that doesn’t fit to the idea that the colonies inherent from colonisers? - There are several points leading the viewer to think that Spain has taken everything from its colonies...please be so kind to compare the human heritage sites built during the Spanish Empire on its colonies compared to the British ones. When Mexico had independence from Spain, Ciudad de Mexico had more carriages per capita than Madrid. - “Look kids, we made Spain a superpower” -> Spain didn’t really need you to make it one, as it already was one. In fact, an hegemony during 130 years and a global power for another 200. - This one, as a classic of every black legend video, is to show the Spanish Empire as a ignorant, regressive society. That is very far from the truth, as while still a middle age thinking Crown, Spain had the first global empire, first one of its kind in Europe after Rome in scope. The development of administration and governance to control so vast and large territories, including technologies and mastering of the sea was unprecedented before. Not just the discovery of America (for the Europeans) was an astonishing feat for its time but the first world circumnavigation was a complete game changer in the understanding from the world, only surpassed by the first man on the moon, many hundreds of years later. As conclusion, great channel, bad historical video. Hispanic Black Legend lives.

[@TeyuYagua]

"The spanish empire was the first global empire" *Angry portuguese noises in the distance*

[@melchid8448]

Bruh how spanish apologizer can you be in one video

[@efxnews4776]

Yeah, Brazil, the only lusophonic nation of Americas, and the second most powerful nation of it, isn't spanish... Brazil is different, is one of the things that people from both sides need to realize.

[@melchid8448]

@@efxnews4776 Ironically I read something about it a day or two ago,did you ever heard of portugese lusotropicalism

[@efxnews4776]

@@melchid8448 Ifi you look at the map of south america, you will notice that most of the cities are close to the coast. That means most spanish speaking countries that Brasil has close contact are in the southern cone of the continent since the northwest part of Brazil is mostly forests with a very low demography. So what you may ask? Brazil is a huge country, only the southern states of Brazil has regular contact with spanish speaking countries, and guess what happens? Argentines Uruguayans chileans and paraguayans are heavly influenced by Brazil but not the other way around. People think that latin america is equal to Mexico and Central America, are sadly wrong, especially when comes to Brazil that has a very distinct culture of its own.

[@josereposo7043]

The caste system supposedly stablished by the Spanish, although commonplace in the anglosphere, has been challenged by academic studies such as those of Pilar Gonzalbo, Joanne Rappaport or Berta Ares and its considered a flawed and ideologically-driven reinterpretetion of the colonial period. Just one google search away.

[@TheAnimeHistorian220]

Europeans drawng Latinamerican borders: "We will divide the provinces in accordance to the inhospitable terrain of the continent to prevent conflicts between them". Europeans drawing African and Middle-eastern borders: "rEcTaNgLeS".

[@JustinianG]

@@Hernanpfl would u be willing to watch my (modern) Greek equivalent of this timeline? I don't make it as rich as the US or Canada but I do make it as rich as Chukotka (richer than Spain, italy, & portugal but not as rich as France or the UK) here's the timeline if you're interested kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@inbrief-shorts]

Great video! greetings from Argentina

[@byzantinecrusaders1352]

It’s crazy how quickly your able to pump these out! Great work!

[@JL-ti3us]

Because upper middle class college kids have little life expierence or expierence with suffering, base themselves around supporting idealistic morality when they do not understand the consequences of their actions. I say this as a middle class college kid in the developing world.

[@meneither3834]

14:20 you forgot that the Spanish (and Portuguese) empires lost their colonial possessions mostly due to French occupation. A richer Spain might put up more of a fight against Napoleon (or Napoleon would have kept them as an ally... And the war of the Spanish crown might never have happened for that matter.)

[@cseijifja]

a rciher spain would have had latin americans break off during the broubons reforms msot likely, or around the seven years wars.

[@Someone45356]

The issue wasn’t necessarily the napoleon wars, but more so the wider effects thereafter. The entire spanish empire had troubles between liberal and conservative reforms at this time, and the fact that spain got so ravaged meant the populace of the peninsula preferred the former (liberal reforms). Meanwhile the criollos and elites in spanish Americas thought the whole opposite. If Spain had gotten its stuff together and made peace with this issue, it wouldn’t have lost new spain and it couldve pushed troops to south america to pacify the caudillo chaos ensuing there (like how ferdinand vii wanted to send 20,000 men to quell the revolutions before the trienio liberal)

[@manuelcamacho1494]

As a teen I felt very welcomed when we said “Look kids looks like we’ve just made a SUPER POWER”

[@xianxiaemperor1438]

A Wealthier, early Industrialised Italy that became a Great Power is such a cool concept, well done

[@k.t.5405]

Unlike Europeans and North Americans , Spanish South American nations refused to take advantage of 300 years worth of free labour. Emperor King Charles V outlawed the disgusting and immoral practice of chattel slavery 350 years before the USA and Protestant Europe (thus forfeiting a USD$700 trillion head start for all of Spanish America). This Spanish anti-slavery tradition was so important at the time, that SPANISH FLORIDA became a safe haven for tens of thousands of American Slaves running from American captivity and brutality. Unfortunately the Florida territories were handed over to the US Gov't in 1820 which immediately enacted pro-chattel slavery laws across the entire peninsula.

[@VologdaMapping]

I would love to see actual lectures from you, you know so many minor major trivias!

[@brunojimenez5169]

hey I like your videos

[@krushnaji4940]

Hi

[@gurgelurk]

In our timeline, the Spanish Empire promoted Catholic mission more than any other country in history. While elements of indigenous American and African faith can be seen in Hispanic America, the Catholic Church has remained dominant from Tijuana to Cape Horn. But in this timeline, we have these premises: * The Spanish government is more tolerant to non-Catholics. The Spanish Inquisition is nonexistent or limited. * The Protestant Reformation still happens, and appeals to merchants, craftsmen and independent farmers. * Sonora and Argentina gets populated by independent farmers (with a lifestyle similar to the US Midwest). * Some Spanish colonies have a black majority; while slaves, they maintain their African customs (compare Haiti). Spanish America would be much more religiously diverse than they became in our timeline. As countries become independent, the government can take very different religious policies: * Enclaves of religious settlers (compare Pennsylvania). This will probably happen in Argentina. * Syncretism of Protestant, Catholic, African and Indigenous American faiths. Probable outcome in Mexico and Peru. * Separation of church and state, with the government de-facto adhering to the majority religion (compare the United States). Probable outcome in rural Sonora. * French-style secularism (laïcité), with an effectively non-religious government. Would require an urbanized, educated population. Might happen in California or Panama. Migrant streams would amplify each nation's religious identity. The Latin American countries would be less of the "sister republics" they are in our timeline, and we might see religious conflicts between them.

[@bevbevan6189]

gurgelurk Excellent insights.

[@alonsoperalta3634]

At the end, in the way Spain colonized Latin America also gave us the oportunity to keep some of our ancient history with us. If we were colonized by France or Britain, we would lost so many things about the mayans, aztecs, incas and many other cultures, just as the US lost so much of their indigenous culture. We surely would be culturally lost, and possibly many of the actual countries would dissapear. Mexico and Peru surely wouldn't exist as we know them. I wish my dear Mexico were part of the first developed countries, we have all the sources to be an economic potience, but for many reasons it hasn't being possible so far, not only because the way Spain dealt with it's colonies. I wonder if in the timeline you propose, we could have both, the actual rich culture of Latin America, and the economic richness of the US, Canada and Europe . (sorry if my written english has many mistakes, I'm still learning the language) Amazing video, new sub from Mexico :D

[@JustinianG]

Since you liked this vid. Maybe you'd be interested in these 2 vids I made. This one is basically the modern Greek equivalent to it kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k and this one is basically the African equivalent to it (don't let the title fool you) kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4HXZourbaqVmNk And in this one I correct the mistakes I made in those 2 vids (but if those r the only vid of mine you've seen only watch from 5:26 - 15:51 & 16:11 - 16:21 that is if u enjoyed one of my vids. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGWrnaiceNairJI Please leave a comment on atleast one of them. I'd love the kind of input u commented here

[@diegovasquez7610]

Then why I still can see indigenous heritage in India or Egypt? And why outside of Mexico, Peru and a couple of countries, there's as many indigenous people as the IS or Canada? Why Uruguay or caribbean countries have zero indigenous people?

[@ah_hispanvs]

Spain approved the abolition of indigenous slavery and mixed marriage in 1512, England decorated slave traders and pirates with the title of Sir and the US did so in 1967. Universities in New England in 1636: 1. Universities in Spanish America in 1636: 15. While the 13 colonies still lived in huts and used the Spanish royal of eight, the American cities were barroque jewels. UNESCO Cultural World heritage sites built by the British outside the UK: 14. Built by the Spanish: 48. In 1713, GB thought that trading 500t a year of Spanish products was a big win, that´s how advanced the imperial economy was. "A Proposal for humbling Spain 1711" talks about the strengh of the American economy and cattle. Renta per capita 1800: New Spain 475$. UK 500$. US 750$. Río de la Plata 750$. Renta per capita 2020: México 10.400$. UK 40.000$. US 67000$. Argentina 9700$. "London Morning Post 1802": The real wealth of Spanish America is on the face of the earth, which is where the British will harvest it. "John Adam, US military 1804": Mexico outshines us. "Thomas Gaige, British priest" There´s almost one car for every 2 people in México. Humbolt was prohibited from travelling through the British Empire, however he was allowed to travel through the Spanish one: "New Spain has a notable advantage over the United States and that is that its number of slaves is practically 0, those of the United States exceed one million, one sixth of its population." "The Indian farmer is poor but free, his situation is much better than that of the peasants of Northern Europe." "I do not see happier peoples than those governed by the Spanish empire." "The Indians are protected by Spanish laws, which are generally wise and humane." "No city in America, not excepting those in the US, can exhibit such great scientific institutions as Mexico City. Other cities also have scientific establishments comparable to those in Europe." Meat consumption 19th C: Paris: 163lbs. México: 189 lbs. Average salary of a miner: Germany: 4,5Fr. México: 30Fr. While Spain traded silver coins with China, the British gave them cannon shots and opium. "Spain is owed the wisdom of Greece, the greatness of Rome, and everything that is not savage in modern politics, but despite everything, England is the Turkish corsair of modern Europe: it dedicates itself to robbing others and when it cannot do it openly, it does so treacherously." Samuel Johnson (Bowell´s life of Johnson 1779 Vol III) Rome duplicated Rome everywhere it went. Spain duplicated Spain everywhere it went, that´s why it lasted twice as long as the other modern empires and needed British funded criolles to destroy it from within, becoming the separated states of America and paying its indepencede debts until 1976... But yeah, I guess Spain is the villain of the story.

[@josealzaibar5274]

Latin America was already rich during the Spanish Empire, the question is why, after independence, it stopped being rich, not why it isn't now. Bad research in this video, marred by the Black Legend.

[@octoberviberations233]

They where rich in resources till the Spanish took most of them

[@josealzaibar5274]

@@octoberviberations233 huh? The riches were created by the empire through its people.

[@octoberviberations233]

@@josealzaibar5274 yes buy they weren’t aloud to keep it, nor trade it with the other colonies or powers. It all went directly to spain

[@josealzaibar5274]

@@octoberviberations233 No man, the crown redistributed riches to its American holdings close 90% of it was reinvested, which is why you get so many magnificent cities like Mexico and Lima, you get forts, cathedrals, roads, hospitals, schools, Univeristies. Boston or New York were shanty towns compared to Mexico city.

[@octoberviberations233]

@@josealzaibar5274 thanks becsude those where the first settled cities of the Spanish empire. Mexico City was just tenochitlan, and Lima was established because Cusco was to high in altitude for the spainards

[@pedritotuga2984]

as a teen living in Sonora, Im surprise my state has gone this far... Good video dude

[@xianxiaemperor1438]

Also, the World in general that has a Higher Quality of Life/Higher Living Standards as a result of a Wealthier, more Inventive Latin America is amazing. I can just imagine places like Argentina and Northern Sonora here being major High-Tech powerhouses and Innovators too.

[@octoberviberations233]

Why did you mention the fact of Ecuadorian world domination Now the whole world knows Ecuador’s secret

[@shiny_teddiursa]

this is actually one of the better alternate histories scenarios (as in like the world overall is slightly better in terms of technology & standard of living), but also depressing af because this could have easily happened if some people decided to do things differently ages ago, vs what we have now is just, embarrassing to say the least, lol.

[@videogamebomer]

Same with Africa the richest region in tbe world in term of resources but had all the protest nations

[@efxnews4776]

Well, i'm brazilian, and i not embarrassed at all, Brazil is the greatest power of latin america and i preffer it keeps this way, in this timeline, Brazil will be smaller and have way less power than it has now... And God forbid, but live in the south of Brazil and the tought of suddenly become Argentinian is horrific! Better that things stay this way...

[@shiny_teddiursa]

Elson Felix you sound stupid, the greatest “power” of latin america isn’t brazil, its the United States, every country south of the US is basically an american puppet, brazil holds no considerable influence in any of its neighbors or even abroad. In fact, brazil would probably richer & more powerful because this timeline would affect portugal as much as it affects spain. Also brazil is embarrassing, all that land, a huge population, with an economy smaller than california due to deeply ingrained corruption.

[@efxnews4776]

@@shiny_teddiursa oh soo US is a latin american country now?

[@efxnews4776]

You really sound stupid, lady...

[@geoffreycharles6330]

Now something I have always wondered about - Are Eastern Europeans part of Western I.e. European culture and if so why are they treated as a second-hand people by the Westerners?

[@innosam123]

No, at least not historically.

[@thechili444]

It depends on where in Eastern Europe, and who was ruling them at the time. For most of the 20th century under Atheist, Soviet rule, certainly not, and that's probably why we're reluctant to call them western. But the main divider would be between Latin and Orthodox countries, one like Poland, Slovakia, the Czechs, the Baltics, Hungary, Croatia, and Slovenia fit the bill pretty well. Russia and her allies, not so much. The exception being Greece, which holds importance for being the cradle of the west, and again, 1900s politics.

[@edgarratsep3631]

We are all europeans, the split came from the western/southern Europe having build giant empires which shaped the world and still do. East had no such development. Our first civilisations came to be by what, 7-9th centuries? In some way it led the west to see us as barbarians that once destroyed everything the west was famous for. Throughout the whole middle age perioud west was urging to take control over the east and in some extent it did in todays east Germany and Baltic states where holy orders were founded to spread catholic church. The move to the east was halted however which pretty much sparked the eternal rivalry. We are just too stubborn to give up what is sacred to us, we might some day become equal but i can't see that happening in 21th century.

[@forgetful9845]

@@edgarratsep3631 Didnt the Romans control a sizable part of the Eastern European land?

[@shorewall]

@@forgetful9845 what part? Eastern Europe is usually considered to consist of the territory of the former USSR. So Poland, Baltics, Ukraine, and Russia. Rome never went there. Not even Byzantines.

[@Opochtli]

Loved this video! Thanks for posting

[@r.c.g5243]

This is amazing content and I would just really love to thank you for the dedication and quality of your videos, keep up the great work!

[@rebeccacanales]

Interesting take on Northern Mexico and the Western US. Of course, in the actual history, there was never any major European immigration to the American Southwest until well into the 19th century and it was the same for Mexico as well, with some very limited exceptions. Most of the land marked as Sonora on that one map, and as being Mexican territory in maps promulgated on the internet today, were claimed but not actually owned by any European nations or any of the nations such as the US or Mexico that claimed them. Rather the land continued to be owned and controlled by the Indigenous peoples well into the 19th century which is when the first Europeans, including Spanish and English speakers, began to establish settlements in the area. You should consider doing a video on what if the Indigenous peoples of the Western US and even Northern Mexico's Indigenous peoples, were able to continue their independence instead of become part of the US or Mexico. Comancheria would be a place to start.

[@rogeliovaldez6594]

Well just as many native tribes integrated into the latino community in mexico and even maintained a degree autonomy for their culture and language i could see had the not mexico lost the 1846 war, a similar situation with comancharia and other regions even if the southwest did eventually overflow with Europeans. There's at least a greater chance for survival, even if it means a cross-cultural integration into the larger Latino identity or "la Raza", "Patria " those native roots would still be there in one form or another

[@dragoninthewest1]

Please do: What if the Inca repelled the Spanish? (You said were going to do this one) What if the Trail of Tears never happened? What if the Iroquois fully allied with the US during the American Revolution?

[@seamusduffy983]

Grear job. Your videos have improved so much over the past year and half in terms of analysis. Keep up the good work and I'll keep watching.

[@lucaslevinsky8802]

17:28 inospitable land?? Have some cities who are larger than even more good lands to live, Manaus (capital of Brazilian state of Amazonas) is actually 2.182.000 Or over than two million But in amazonas outside Manaus and some minor cities are only a BIG forest almost no human live And some parts of amazonas, never touched by human life

[@MrMakabar]

Yeah due to rubber.

[@gunter6377]

@@MrMakabar 2 million people for rubber? Are you kidding?

[@lucaslevinsky8802]

@@gunter6377 no, Manaus is very great metropolis one of largest cities of Brazil

[@filipej.6108]

na verdade da bem certo do modo geral e a unica grande cidade do amazonas

[@elqueobserva7663]

It's funny, but I was born in a city located in the inhospitable terrain of the north of Mexico xD (Next to Texas, in Coahuila)

[@brunopereira6789]

As a Brazilian, I was hoping you'd talk more about Brazil! XD Great video nonetheless!

[@hanoi9316]

Sou brasileiro também .

[@hanoi9316]

Sigo esse canal ha muito tempo

[@hanoi9316]

Moro em Natal ,Rio Grande do Norte e vc ?

[@brunopereira6789]

@@hanoi9316 Brasília!

[@JustinianG]

U might be interested in this timeline I made. it's basically the Greek equivalent to this one. I made Greece much richer and I expanded it's borders to the size of Tunisia. I even mention Brazil in it :D (albeit only at the tail end) kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@JoaoOstroski420]

Hmmm that’s a hard choice Having Argentina controlling southern Brazil where I live in and the Spanish speaking Latin American countries having big economies which mean that I cannot meme on their countries being poopoo... Or living in a world where a country that calls itself “America” leads the world? Difficult choice indeed...

[@JoaoOstroski420]

The U.S’ leader is an actual fucking Doritos, wtf.

[@hernanstrausser9143]

>Is from Brazil >Calls other countries poopoo

[@Riingwraith]

Bro I'm also from South Brazil, and we are a poopoo country too...

[@agustinriesco4177]

@@JoaoOstroski420 LAMBE QUE LAMBE QUE ENGOLA MEU PIROCA

[@TheAnimeHistorian220]

id pick the first one tbh

Lets mourn for the lost opportunities of Latin America..

[@colbymcarthur7871]

I love how I, an American, can listen to an Aussie discuss Europe and Latin America on a Chinese-built phone

[@nicolasburgosb5826]

Hey I recommend you "The Making of Modern Colombia: A Nation in Spite of Itself" written by David Bushnell, precisely he wrote that book because he couldn't find any historical information of the zone. if you're searching for information about the northern South American countries, it's about Colombia but it shares some precolombian, colonial and even independent history with Venezuela, Ecuador and even Panama, and touch economics, political and cultural topics. Hope you find it :)

[@tomasmarcataio2066]

It's great to see you pump out Latin American videos. Not many people interest themselves in the region, even though it is extremely interesting and historically rich. Again, I don't know if you will ever do it (especially after this one), but it would be nice to see a 'What if the English invasions of the Rio de la Plata succeded' video. Thanks again for your content, you're great.

[@UFGBlitzkreigTV]

I love your work, extremely well thought out!

[@Sweet4chokoreeto]

As a whole... Is a good experiment. But as a chilean I'm allowed to say that you forgot about Antarctica, Lithium, and the fact that we all hate each other in Latin America.

[@xianxiaemperor1438]

Also alternate histories with Industrialized Colonial Empires are pretty cool tbh

[@scholaroftheworldalternatehist]

Great video, man! I aspire to reach your level of videos one day. You clearly have a thorough grasp on the overall trend of history, which I assume came from years of thorough reading. Keep up the good work.

[@suzanneskinner8851]

Another alt-historian is always welcome in my book.

[@WhatifAltHist]

Thank you very much. That's very kind. The world needs people to read more history.

[@scholaroftheworldalternatehist]

@@WhatifAltHist I agree completely. Do you think you would be able to give a shoutout in your next video/description if you think my channel has potential? It would mean alot :)

[@gayuwu5596]

"If Spain didn't invade everything would be better" Actually: ding dong its the uk and we're going to import more slaves.

[@El-Silver]

he is not wrong most of the bad things did come from the colonials and we sadly have kept their mentality long after their departure

[@Joridiy]

​@@El-Silver That's actually pretty much victimist propaganda. Hispanic America used to be quite rich before some events that doomed the countries. Cuba, being the pearl of the Caribbean, was destroyed after the Cuban Revolution; Philippines, the pearl of Orient, the second most developed territory in Asia after Japan, fell due to US expantionism. Venezuela because of the 80's, Mexico because Mexican Civil War and the PRI (who then blamed all its failures to the Spaniards), Paraguay literally fought 3 countries and killed 90% their men; Equatorial Guinea instead of chosing the path of democracy or remaining Spanish a bit longer, chose independence in the precise moment where most African states failed and they literally chose a sadist dictator instead of a person that would govern the country just right (who also got killed). Spain in Africa had a very benefical situation for both Western Sahara and Equatorial Guinea (specially if you stop to think that it was LITERALLY a dictatorship with provinces in Africa that enjoyed way more democracy and freedom than people, to say, from Catalonia). There has been many chances for Hispanic World to be great and powerful, however our fight for power, chosening of bad leaders or supporting a terrorist organization (like Sahrawis with POLISARIO or Philippines with the Katipunan) wouldn't result in a good thing as their propaganda would tell. It's easy to blame the spaniards for "our mysery" but it's faux and a fallacy. We've been owners of our own history, paths and liberty and we've just chosen to throw it to the trash, being invaded by the USA, fight against our hispanic brothers or all that. Venezuela went from being a world emerging power to trash because of bad decisions, not because of hispanization

[@juandavidvalencia7536]

Latin America is a land of contrasts, there are “more westernized” countries in Latin America than others. And inside a country, there may be more westernized regions than others. For example, it’s not the same visiting Mexico City than visiting Oaxaca. Or it’s not the same visiting Honduras than visiting Colombia for example. So, there are zones and regions that are as western as North America and Europe, and there are other ones that just have nothing to do.

[@marcomartins3563]

0:42 Peru is one of the countries that are the most indigenous though. Peru and Bolivia are even more indigenous than Paraguay and Mexico, which are mestizo-dominant.

[@SpanishDio]

the video is pure gold , pretty well done and very well researched, but I think saying "Spain" is the main cause of why Latin America is poor, is wrong in so many ways! I think it has more to do with what the criollos did in the XIX century, the high % of native population and mestizos that caused various "independence wars/internal wars" like the one from Yucatan from México, the back up dictatorships that the USA imposed during the late XIX century and early XX. the monopoly from european commercial companys in the caribbean that made profit of the infighting between the central american criollos etc. before their independence the Spanish colonies had the biggest cities and in average the most quality of life of the entire Americas, especially in the urban areas, You are partly right tho, I think the Spanish without knowing it , damned the future latin american republics, but purely because Spain ruled them without having in mind that in the future they would become independent republics, thus making things like the presidios,casta system etc obstacles in the development of the new hispanic republics , Spain didn't consider his colonies "true colonies" but more like an extension of itself, so as a man who loves latin american history I wouldn't blame the Spaniards at all if I'm being hoenst and I would actually "blame" what happened in the XIX century,the criollo elite in general and the USA. but still I have to say that I love your videos, I woud love to see more videos like these! maybe what would have happened if Aragon united Spain and not Castile

[@caesar6484]

Rapa Nuii Thank you, I was trying to say that! It’s discouraging to find some biased opinions on the particularly black legend Spain has. Glad you found out too.

[@zoeroyalty2634]

An interesting what if. What if the Roman Empire collapsed during the crisis of the third century? I’ve always wondered what would be the fate of the Gaullic Empire if they held to Spain and Palmyrene Empire if they held to Egypt in the event of Rome collapsing early.

[@christopherroa9781]

8:05 I actually laughed out loud. You could definitely be the crazy history professor in a disaster movie

[@gabriel-qz9ps]

The amount of black legend is off the charts

[@mrcool7567]

How?

[@concept5631]

What?

[@danielforeroc]

Aw, c'mon, I know you are more or less brainwashed, and it's true that some exaggerations exist, but, most of what he said it's true. Spain is the champion of wasting, they had one of the largest and richest empires on earth, with tons of subjects subjugated in order to exploit that wealth, no other empire has had it as easy as Spain had it, and they wasted it all. The spaniards were horrible at administration and economics, corruption was the norm, and that's a heritage we still have. You say that Spain built a lot of cities and universities and civilized us, but, they blocked progress, Spain didn't allow industry or trade between the colonies, those universities weren't for educate the people, were for educate the rich that came here, because they wouldn't come if those things didn't exist. Spain wanted to recreate the peninsular society, that's why they did all those things, but they prefered loyalty (often bought, ya'know corruption), than real development, and the problem isn't even not encouraging development, but blocking it, the british didn't mess with the colonist and they developed by themselves, the spanish blocked in every way possible the development of the colonies. The spanish empire is the empire of incompetence and inefficiency.

[@holaadios2263]

@@danielforeroc Don't blame Spain if your country 200 years after independence is still a shithole

[@danielforeroc]

@@holaadios2263 The incompetence of the local leaders is also to blame, but Spain was also a shithole some decades ago, without the EU, Spain would be like Romania. I'm saying that Spain blocked the progress of the colonies imposing anti-economical policies, and those institutions have lasted to this day, look at Uruguay and Costa Rica, both were the regions least controlled by Spain, and now they're the richest regions of Latin America per capita.

[@gracefulcubix4730]

More accurate description: What if the spanish colonies were properly managed as an actual territory instead of an gold mine extraction.

[@jasonlawrence2143]

Could you please do a more in-depth analysis on how this timeline would affect the USA and Canada?

[@israelmicete295]

Latin America was more rich than USA in 1800 for much

[@julianbrenes4744]

Hello from Costa Rica 🇨🇷. Thank you for mentioning our happy exception. Oldest democracy in Latin America and of the oldest in the world

[@BirdTurdMemes]

9:35 Damn this made me chuckle quite a bit

[@hydralisk98]

I like this timeline, let's make a Civilization 5 scenario out of this, similar to the vanilla DLC's ones.

[@zacharybrandt8345]

This is one of the better of your videos that I have viewed.

[@theepicmaxgod9648]

I like how on the resource map at 16:47 Panama's resource is just 'canal'

[@darthcalanil5333]

1:40 I love how you very politically correctly listed "Middle Eastern slave trade" instead of saying it as it is. Islamic slave trade 😂

[@bacondragon6418]

That is because the Islam is not exclusively middle eastern. The Middle East is a region named by geography. Islam is a religion.

[@bacondragon6418]

@@A_I_N_P I do not want to argue in any means with you, but according to history, and geography, Islam spreads allot more than tge Middle East. That is like saying that Christianity is only limited to Europe.

[@Adidas_der_schwanger_war]

arabic slave trade would be the correct term

[@thedoruk6324]

Imagine A Greater Mexico/Aztlan dominated north/south america The Neo-Aztec vibes taco Hegemony :D

[@efxnews4776]

Nope! As brazilian, the real timeline is fine by me...

[@thedoruk6324]

@Quæsitor修行 Liver and Hearth stakes!

[@elqueobserva7663]

De por sí como buen mexicano norteño que soy siento un apego nulo a los mexicas, así que no gracias.

[@usuariologico7792]

@@elqueobserva7663 igual soy del noreste , pero estos pendejos capitalinos y sureños no entienden , un nacionalismo azteca o maya no funcionaría , pues no todos los indígenas eran de estos 2 grupos , verga un nacionalismo indígena en general no funcionaría , debemos enfocarnos en lo hispano , lo católico , pero no!! porque "muh España opresora"

[@celdur4635]

Latin America was rich until the second half of the XXth century, your point and video is null and void. (When only counting whites and even mestizo people, blacks and indigenous are poorer in the US than in Latam today and have less avenues to climb socially) And at independence, en the early XIX century, income and quality of life was higher in Spanish America than in Europe, including Paris, London or the low countries. The average worker ate more meat and had higher wages. Look up the economic historical research on the region. And 80% of the production of the American Viceroyalties were kept in America, only 20% went to Spain, and that's saying something since we were all part of the Spanish Empire, we were only subjects of the king and "Spanish" at the time. so we were just contributing our part.

[@JustinianG]

Maybe you'd be interested in these 2 vids I made. This one is basically the modern Greek equivalent to it kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k and this one is basically the African equivalent to it (don't let the title fool you) kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4HXZourbaqVmNk And in this one I correct the mistakes I made in those 2 vids (but if those r the only vid of mine you've seen only watch from 5:26 - 15:51 & 16:11 - 16:21 that is if u enjoyed one of my vids. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGWrnaiceNairJI Please leave a comment on atleast one of them. I'd love the kind of input u commented here

[@celdur4635]

@@JustinianG Lets see.

[@celdur4635]

@Dr. Linus Esa es la aristocracia, pero la gente común y corriente no vivia tan bien.

[@diegovasquez7610]

According to the historical GDP per capita, the spanish colonies never were wealthier than Spain, as the metropoli had a higher GDP per capita. The quality of life was absolute shit in colonial cities, and there's no source for higher wages in spanish america, also as of 2017 latin american countries ate as many meat per capita as several developed countries according to the FAO, so that doesn't prove shit. Every coulonial power invested in their colonies, and most of the "investmemt" from the spanish empiere went to useless churcher and paying the army

[@johnnybaxter8078]

Nada que ver. España estaba quebrando en el siglo 19. Francia los invadió y los latinos aprovecharon para independizarse mientras andaban allá en Europa ocupados, lo cual le quitó la principal fuente de ingresos de españa. Ya para el siglo XX España era simplemente un país más de Europa, no las grandes potencias colonizadoras como Francia o Inglaterra. Al momento de perder las colonias americanas, los europeos empezaron a conquistar Asia y sobretodo Africa, lo que les garantizó auge económico a las potencias colonizadoras Europeas. España no hizo esto por lo que en todo el siglo XX seguía eclipsado aún por otros países. "Null and void" my ass lmao.

[@tripleq7888]

If the British controlled areas like Canada and the US are richer, how come Belize, Jamaica and Guyana are poor?

[@jadenoliveras717]

3 years late but all 3 of these were slave plantation colonies and not settler colonies like Canada and America

[@davidcervantes9336]

Wonderful job. I also like your humour by the way haha! Although, I can already see comments of central Mexicans being somehow offended by this video. Cheers!

[@nicolaspaipa2158]

If the Great Colombia survives in your world, it would become a small US, divided between a the small farmer free Andes and the plantation Caribbean Coast.

[@danielforeroc]

It was very difficult, Bolivar was horrible at administration, he almost bankrupted Gran Colombia, and had issues with most of the high ranking criollo nobility of Venezuela, like Páez. The Gran Colombia was born already dead.

[@o.fernandez4848]

Indeed, I enjoy the timeline. Such a huge region and a timeline of +500 years, yet you manage to include most of the important factors (geography, culture, religion, migration, government, etc). Thumbs up, and ty for the effort. PS: I bet that the overlapping and contradictory sources from the colonial period made this a "frikking hard to research timeline".

[@grahamturner2640]

4:45 Monty Python reference?

[@victorviereck4117]

No. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU DIDN'T EXPECT THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

[@joethebassplayer]

Great video!!! long-time channel subscriber, big fan of history and knowledge... I think if citizens were taught this is public school, using your straightforward and "blunt" language, kids would take a greater interest in History and we'd all be better off having a well informed and wiser citizenry. Thank you for your time and work!

[@FrankU_]

Spanish: sees gold. Also spanish: IS IT FOR ME? 👉👈

[@lordpickle65]

Natives: y e h

[@rfl3239]

I think spain would have still controlled Sardinia in this timeline and probably the catalans, who already were a big minority there, setteling the region and mixing with the italians and Sardinia would have become another autonomous region of Spain.

[@ShnoogleMan]

As opposed to Panama, I think a better place for a major city would be on the narrow stretch of land between Lake Nicaragua and the Pacific. It's much more narrow, being only 11 miles wide at certain points, so a city could easily span it, making it both an Atlantic and Pacific port.

[@JustinianG]

Can you give your input on these timelines I made. This one is basically the modern African equivalent of it kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4HXZourbaqVmNk (don't let the title fool you) And here's the modern Greek equivalent to it kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@laszlogubbinsuccelli]

Im curious how you came to study to Peru and what you studied! Great video btw.

[@johnelliott7375]

Don't sell yourself short, I enjoy these videos and the content is exciting.

[@arturogranados1133]

Your my new favorite channel.

[@JustinianG]

I think you'd be interested in these timelines I made. This one is basically the modern African equivalent of it kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4HXZourbaqVmNk (don't let the title fool you) and here's the modern Greek equivalent to it kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@meneither3834]

1:41 books hard to find *The middle-eastern slave trade* This could turn political so quickly though.

[@ax2953]

Western Civilization as any other civilization is based on culture, language, religion, etc but not just your current per capita income, I mean, I didn't see anyone kicking out Germany from the Western World when the were super broke after WWII, on the other hand, countries like UAE, Singapore and South Korea are super rich but I don't think anyone would consider them to be part of the Western Civilization.

[@Hawaiian_Shirt_guy]

While you're 100% right that Indigenous culture has played a significant role in shaping the cultures of several Latin American countries, you couldn't be further off the mark when you describe the history of coups, dictatorships, and civil wars as setting Latin America apart from Europe. Wow... that was incredibly, amazingly short sighed for a history student. I mean, literally all of European history from the French Revolution until World War II was coups, dictatorships, and civil wars. Like, literally, ALL. OF. IT. Wow....I love your channel, but that actually left me speechless...

[@jiakemo7442]

I have some suggestions for the next videos: What if Chinese empire never existed? What if battle of Tondibi(1591) never happened? What if Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth conquered and inherited Russia?

[@XxKarnSlavexX]

Dear Whatifalthist . *YOU HAVE SUMMONED THY PINOY*

[@byshuma3496]

3:27 England: *attempts to deport Scots* Scotland: *Independence Intensifies*

[@hankcyrus9776]

The dutch revolt happened because of spanish intolerance, they would still be part of spain in this timeline.

[@grubbybum3614]

South East Asian books: some pretty good ones by Australian authors

[@thompson_papa]

That thumbnail with that Spanish empire would make Carthage proud...

[@JustinianG]

I think you'd be interested in these timelines I made. This one is basically the modern African equivalent of it kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4HXZourbaqVmNk (don't let the title fool you) and here's the modern Greek equivalent to it kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKalYYmPdt6sp8k

[@dancingoctopussmead]

@Whatifalthist For pre-1853 Japan you could do Kings or People. It covers the change of authority to rule shifting form Kings to the People and Japan is a case study within the book along with Prussia. Might be what you are looking for might not but I found the book interesting.