What If NATO And BRICS Went To War? (2024)

  Рет қаралды 32,443

AdizzPro

AdizzPro

25 күн бұрын

Today, we will look at a scenario where NATO and BRICS go to war in 2024. I have done this scenario before, but as of recently, the alliances have gained new members. More specifically, Finland and Sweden have joined NATO, and the countries of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Ethiopia, and the UAE have joined BRICS. So what would a war between these two alliances look like in 2024? Obviously, BRICS is an economic alliance and has no military force, but it would still be interesting to look at a hypothetical scenario. BRICS has way more manpower and population than NATO, but is this enough for them to win? If you enjoy this video, make sure to...
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➤On this channel, you can expect to see a large variety of mapping content! Videos can span from my alternate future series, empire series, war scenarios, geopolitical talks, and various mapping-related games. I'm a huge political/history/geography fan, so if you're interested in those things as well, this channel may be perfect for you! Have an amazing day!

Пікірлер: 450
@chirilafilip3212
@chirilafilip3212 23 күн бұрын
Who do you think would win? Blue:like Red:reply
@467_germany_hihi
@467_germany_hihi 23 күн бұрын
Hmm I think nato
@StopMotioneditz
@StopMotioneditz 23 күн бұрын
Red
@467_germany_hihi
@467_germany_hihi 23 күн бұрын
Well I was wrong but this was a good video
@OfficialDoggyYT
@OfficialDoggyYT 23 күн бұрын
red obviously
@TheKaiserofeurope
@TheKaiserofeurope 23 күн бұрын
Red
@aksathraja5422
@aksathraja5422 23 күн бұрын
Just imagine that you are a military logistics commander in China or India and order to supervision millions of men and millions of equipments that needs to be transported hundreds of miles away from your country straight into the enemies
@shiyamganesh9570
@shiyamganesh9570 23 күн бұрын
''Yes, sir, yes the logistics commander of India and china died from work ''
@prabhakar0076
@prabhakar0076 23 күн бұрын
Dumb chu*, Bharath keh hawaldar supplied food a d ammunition to RUSSIA during WW2 thru road despite many attacks from Germany, eventually Russia win over Germany in freezing winter, which was end of Germany​@@shiyamganesh9570
@CEXAPAMLY
@CEXAPAMLY 22 күн бұрын
China they never surrender
@CEXAPAMLY
@CEXAPAMLY 22 күн бұрын
China never surrendered
@Dolphinsfan0
@Dolphinsfan0 23 күн бұрын
"Every does war crimes now and then" relatable
@MSI-E
@MSI-E 23 күн бұрын
"It's not a war crime if NATO does it" relatable
@rohanleblancsloan9651
@rohanleblancsloan9651 23 күн бұрын
Canada: it’s not a war crime the first time!
@photonbee1932
@photonbee1932 22 күн бұрын
its not a war crime if ya didnt do it 😎👍
@alexbartleman2929
@alexbartleman2929 22 күн бұрын
Bro always forgets to color in Koliningrad 😂
@Reytan-Gaming
@Reytan-Gaming 15 күн бұрын
lol
@rajendraghadge7847
@rajendraghadge7847 8 күн бұрын
Koliningrad lmao
@ChariTheAlternate
@ChariTheAlternate 23 күн бұрын
Nuclear powers vs the world coming next!?!?!?!
@DizZzySweat
@DizZzySweat 20 күн бұрын
Israel would be screwed 😭😭
@devataxeqed
@devataxeqed 19 күн бұрын
Israel wouldn't india Iran Pakistan could easily take the middle East and Israel could hold out​@@DizZzySweat
@RMS-Titanic-ge5vc
@RMS-Titanic-ge5vc 18 күн бұрын
@@DizZzySweatIsrael is pretty strong?
@saturn6563
@saturn6563 18 күн бұрын
If the nuclear powers didn’t nuke eachother then they would probably survive but just barely because of radiation, non nuclear powers won’t survive
@mariotheundying
@mariotheundying 16 күн бұрын
@@DizZzySweat Israel is part of the nuclear powers tho, i think they have nuclear bombs, could be wrong tho, anyhow if they are then the rest of the middle east is screwed, yknow, USA, India and Pakistan doesnt help their case
@lfeatherbe1
@lfeatherbe1 20 күн бұрын
How do u get these maps? Love the content😊
@aidensnay5042
@aidensnay5042 23 күн бұрын
I like the longer videos the best. This one was the perfect length for me. But when it comes to the new civilization videos I could watch them for hours.
@nicjo_
@nicjo_ 23 күн бұрын
agreed
@YourlocalNEScontroller
@YourlocalNEScontroller 23 күн бұрын
Im a nes controller
@Darth_B
@Darth_B 23 күн бұрын
@@YourlocalNEScontrollerok, do you know a n64 controller?
@ethangamer2259
@ethangamer2259 23 күн бұрын
True
@YourlocalNEScontroller
@YourlocalNEScontroller 22 күн бұрын
@@Darth_B yes he is my grandson.
@Thephilippinecountryball
@Thephilippinecountryball 22 күн бұрын
What app do you use?
@5danny07_
@5danny07_ 9 күн бұрын
hey adizzpro,where and how do you meke these scenarios?
@snetchy
@snetchy 22 күн бұрын
What app do that man use .... Please tell me I appreciate you and this man too Please
@benjaminmuller8226
@benjaminmuller8226 16 күн бұрын
I want the name of the app to
@snetchy
@snetchy 16 күн бұрын
@@benjaminmuller8226 ya wich someone tell us
@Oreo_Editz9
@Oreo_Editz9 12 күн бұрын
I three want the app 🫤
@astro10407
@astro10407 23 күн бұрын
Bro I think u made the bricks too powerful
@KnJay_unofficial
@KnJay_unofficial 4 күн бұрын
China + India = 2 billion people.
@dingozi3428
@dingozi3428 23 күн бұрын
In the final episode of your "What If Civilization Started Over" series, could you please use black borders like in maps? Also, it would be great if you could create more videos about Algeria, such as one where Algeria invades France.
@Roblox_mrtomas
@Roblox_mrtomas 23 күн бұрын
Oh no. my enemy. Algeria.
@sashathedonut
@sashathedonut 23 күн бұрын
realistically algeria isn't strong enough to invade france, but yeah more videos on arab countries would be cool
@dingozi3428
@dingozi3428 23 күн бұрын
@@sashathedonut hhhh
@evanboyle6808
@evanboyle6808 23 күн бұрын
His videos already border unrealistic it that’s just out right impossible
@kaz4184
@kaz4184 22 күн бұрын
If Algeria invaded France, France would again be a colonial power. Even if he made "What if Algeria snapped" episode, they would never occupy whole france
@maxi2786
@maxi2786 21 күн бұрын
Adizz can you make an empire video but att the end of the video the empire collapses?
@SOMEGURD
@SOMEGURD 5 күн бұрын
what does he use to make his videos like what map does he was?
@Dabkiller59
@Dabkiller59 23 күн бұрын
cool idea
@TheTrioGamers8327
@TheTrioGamers8327 20 күн бұрын
Does anyone know the name of this app
@ShimakazeYoutube
@ShimakazeYoutube 11 күн бұрын
Program name?
@Oldchannel666
@Oldchannel666 19 күн бұрын
Please do this video but where you made every country get involved like WW3!
@Mysterious_gamer2
@Mysterious_gamer2 20 күн бұрын
can u please tell me what you use for this painting
@shitabjohanmollickszhw2345
@shitabjohanmollickszhw2345 22 күн бұрын
Hey adizz! Since you are running out of colours in your what if civilization started over series, you can use black borders in the map like you do in other videos.
@Dirt211
@Dirt211 22 күн бұрын
But we wouldn't know what team they would be without colors
@netizen-studios
@netizen-studios 23 күн бұрын
about time and also i really don't like the dark red or the bright red and a shade of red between the 2 would be great
@ExityOfficial
@ExityOfficial 23 күн бұрын
5:49 AdizzPro: I’m a geography KZbinr Me: we’re Moscow AdizzPro: somewhere there, or maybe here
@ohmygodjustchilllmao
@ohmygodjustchilllmao 22 күн бұрын
imo u should do a little darker blue color too
@Oacka
@Oacka 23 күн бұрын
Yolo! Just want to say thank you you for all these years of constant entertainment, you are one of the last KZbinr in the mapping community that actually cares, the majority of people mostly make these dumb geography edits, but not you enjoy your community and it’s ok to branch out somethings, I genuinely believe that you are the best mapping creator no exceptions, I’ve been in this community for around 3ish years and I watch your channel throughout these years, Hope you have a happy rest of your year, hopefully we won’t die in the process.
@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy
@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy 23 күн бұрын
Nobody be reading this
@Oacka
@Oacka 23 күн бұрын
@@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy >:0
@noahniskala
@noahniskala 23 күн бұрын
@@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy Bro it is not that long.
@Artnakan
@Artnakan 23 күн бұрын
hey, I want the divisions feature that u said last vid.
@michelledowler6235
@michelledowler6235 23 күн бұрын
You could do a video of the US and or another country going through a Civil War and then the videos on how the world would react you could also bring back your empires serious I was a big fan of it just some ideas keep up the good work❤
@Owen_tdi
@Owen_tdi 21 күн бұрын
App?
@thomasmcgorry1371
@thomasmcgorry1371 22 күн бұрын
Adizzpro you should make the blue darker when you made red darker
@astrawberrypup2729
@astrawberrypup2729 21 күн бұрын
i want that too
@Republic10
@Republic10 23 күн бұрын
FINALLY
@Goatinho7
@Goatinho7 20 күн бұрын
name of app?
@stevenheims3829
@stevenheims3829 22 күн бұрын
Make form this video part 2 USA vs Russia
@GMinus
@GMinus 16 күн бұрын
I may not be the biggest fan of NATO but it is good to have them on our side in case we are ever at war.
@bradthegamer083
@bradthegamer083 18 күн бұрын
Video idea: what if Argentina joined NATO?
@JensyJames
@JensyJames 23 күн бұрын
yes another brilliant video :)
@turezak
@turezak 23 күн бұрын
Brics doesn’t look like a very united alliance to go in a war, as there are tensions between the members (for example Iran and Saudi, China and India)
@XPROVX
@XPROVX 23 күн бұрын
It's a economy alliance and india and china don't have any problem with trades
@ryan-ch6fp
@ryan-ch6fp 23 күн бұрын
@@XPROVX we know, turezak means if they DID go into a war, they wouldn't be on the same side at all china and india have significant disagreements, like influence and borders
@prabhakar0076
@prabhakar0076 23 күн бұрын
When NATO attacks directly, CHINA may unite with INDIA, then No going back 😂😂😂
@ryan-ch6fp
@ryan-ch6fp 23 күн бұрын
@@prabhakar0076 NATO is a defensive alliance and typically does not engage in offensive actions unless provoked additionally, there's little rationale for NATO to attack China or India preemptively, because they'd have genuinely no reason to at any point. the assumption that China and India would automatically unite in the face of a NATO attack overlooks the complexities of their relationship, including historical tensions and ongoing territorial disputes. basically, India would never come to Chinas side in a war because whilst many Indians do like China, the far far far majority despise China.
@prabhakar0076
@prabhakar0076 23 күн бұрын
@@ryan-ch6fp Yes, we don't like China expansionism but we hate NATO even more for Same expansionism . It's impossible to attack INDIA directly, 3 sides ocean and 4th, THE HIMALAYAS. BRICS has CHINA and INDIA for a reason of peace and prosperity. USA preaches peace and goes to WAR. USA supports Pakistan against INDIA but China made Pakistan, it's lap dog and asks INDIA to counter CHINA 😂😂😂 Next BRICS meeting, IRAN going to ask help from China, Russia along with India to stop war. Let's see what happens.
@YesGuy144p
@YesGuy144p 22 күн бұрын
Isnt brics an economical alliance? (I havent watched the video yet)
@Maps_and_birds
@Maps_and_birds 23 күн бұрын
Thank you for this video, Dizzy!
@Tundra212
@Tundra212 23 күн бұрын
Honestly a really awesome video, what happened to the alliances wasn't really discussed so I just wanted to say what could have happened peace treaty wise. 1: All countries in Eastern Europe are forced to leave NATO and the EU, with many former Soviet satellite states joining BRICS, this includes Turkey as well, with some countries having new pro-Russian/BRICS governments. 2:The people of Finland and Sweden blame their government for being NATO sympathizers which caused them to join and lose much land and many lives to fight for a perceived useless and unwinnable war. They both leave NATO voluntarily after the opposition parties win, causing them to go back into neutrality, with no intention to repeat history. 3: NATO and the EU are allowed to exist in Western Europe and North America, but are not allowed to expand into Eastern Europe. However it is never stated they can't expand anywhere else.
@ThomasAndRandomRobloxGames
@ThomasAndRandomRobloxGames 23 күн бұрын
I feel like "but it's ____ so they don't really carrrreeeeee" should become a thing adizz says a lot 9:50
@JaypeeQuigan-lx4hb
@JaypeeQuigan-lx4hb 20 күн бұрын
Day 1 asking for zombie apocalypse scenario
@HarryHL2009
@HarryHL2009 23 күн бұрын
I Was 2nd Like
@colossalblocks5749
@colossalblocks5749 22 күн бұрын
Day 2 of asking for what if indonesia formed an empire
@andriasakvarelidze2663
@andriasakvarelidze2663 22 күн бұрын
Video N32 of asking to do what if georgia finally snapped
@ViolaPB
@ViolaPB 8 күн бұрын
I think we should have Nato vs CSTO
@Joelsmarbleruns
@Joelsmarbleruns 23 күн бұрын
What is the app you use for making maps and mapping called?
@user-si4xp9pr6m
@user-si4xp9pr6m 23 күн бұрын
I have asked this before please answer
@mattseeman3457
@mattseeman3457 20 күн бұрын
Video 98 of commenting until adizz does a zombie Apocalypse Scenario Adizz please
@GeoHjalle
@GeoHjalle 22 күн бұрын
*achievement unlocked: You killed NATO for the first time*
@terryleung622
@terryleung622 23 күн бұрын
THANK YOU! I suggested this multiple times! Glad you look at the comments
@aaravdiwakaristhebest
@aaravdiwakaristhebest 23 күн бұрын
The usual red is better it feels like they are actually in the war and active
@GordonBracamontes
@GordonBracamontes 5 күн бұрын
What map game is this
@ENDI8089
@ENDI8089 21 күн бұрын
Youve never made a continent in the north pole, i think an opposite antartica would be fun
@mamaztaarraatz353
@mamaztaarraatz353 23 күн бұрын
Did Kalingride declared independence from russia and declared neutralit?
@Baguette586
@Baguette586 23 күн бұрын
I’m so early 9 minutes
@Artnakan
@Artnakan 23 күн бұрын
I want the divisions feature too
@drewadventurehistory
@drewadventurehistory 16 күн бұрын
The reason why Argentina 🇦🇷 backed out was because when Javier Milei became the new president of Argentina 🇦🇷 in December of 2023 he pulled Argentina 🇦🇷 out to join BRICS
@Liormusique
@Liormusique 23 күн бұрын
Really well made video!!
@HotDogMemes-er8cl
@HotDogMemes-er8cl 23 күн бұрын
We all know it’s a good day when Adizzpro uploads
@leroysteel2340
@leroysteel2340 22 күн бұрын
The “pink” colour that is the dark reds taken land should be bright red.
@aycc-nbh7289
@aycc-nbh7289 21 күн бұрын
Perhaps one way this could go differently is that NATO forces could be distracting Russian forces in Vladivostok, allowing them to sabotage the Trans-Siberian Railway and prevent Chinese and Indian reinforcements from making it to the front lines before Moscow is seized.
@webbynsemu6453
@webbynsemu6453 23 күн бұрын
Hello 😊😊I love your videos
@BOSNIANPROUDKNIGHT
@BOSNIANPROUDKNIGHT 23 күн бұрын
Im surprisingly here early wow
@anema157
@anema157 17 күн бұрын
I'm a canadian, and I can say it is nearly impossible to invade the US, where are you invading from, not the north, and the coasts would be a royal pain, and you're also not going through mexico
@BoyalOboliskiaNachoTheMadeUp
@BoyalOboliskiaNachoTheMadeUp 23 күн бұрын
Reply if the early gang
@TheKaiserofeurope
@TheKaiserofeurope 23 күн бұрын
No
@mr.mister3074
@mr.mister3074 22 күн бұрын
Alternative videos: I am dying
@__Russianmapper__
@__Russianmapper__ 21 күн бұрын
You forgot Kaliningrad
@ChillGuy1234
@ChillGuy1234 23 күн бұрын
These Video's Are My Favourite. I Have No Idea How He Manages To Do Daily Upload Week. Keep It Up!
@LawTheDanMan
@LawTheDanMan 23 күн бұрын
Bro nato is stronger than Russia and China when it comes to navy, Air Force, and manpower and also can we do normal brics, not the new countries in brics in 2024..?
@prabhakar0076
@prabhakar0076 23 күн бұрын
U think BHARATH (INDIA) is tiny 😂😂😂.most Europeans r old, muricans r dumb and drug addicts. U think army is made up of bafoons. UN peacekeeping consists mostly of Indians for a reason and the most fought people in WW2 r Indians and r reason for loss of Germany.
@planetarystargazer
@planetarystargazer 23 күн бұрын
What If South America united into one single country
@skyguyxninja5650
@skyguyxninja5650 23 күн бұрын
Two would be better cause of Spanish and Portuguese speakers
@ZeKermet
@ZeKermet 23 күн бұрын
Yea the overwhelming Spanish and Portuguese will allow them to communicate well. It'll make sense
@tonyboy47
@tonyboy47 23 күн бұрын
Nice video :)
@user-lj8gk1nv5i
@user-lj8gk1nv5i 23 күн бұрын
honestly they bricks may have took some land but with the russians barely hanging on in unkraine when nato almost took moscow russias army would be gone and the chinese would be filling in for russia
@EvanTheHistorian
@EvanTheHistorian 23 күн бұрын
Nah. this wouldent happen, chinas soldiers arent battlehardened and wouldent be used to fighting, most would surrender. and tons of mutany with india and china. this video disgusts me. this would be stalemated. the will of europe would be to strong for them to even make it into poland. you severely over estimated russia. the american airforce would dominate the skys with reinforced nato fronts. there is so many reasons why this would be stalemated. very dissapointed.
@thabisoolatotse8725
@thabisoolatotse8725 23 күн бұрын
You should analyze his videos to make it a bit more interesting he ignores rivalries sometimes and also research on the logistics and weapons of both sides before making such comments the American airforce needs bases to place thier air superiority and China and Russia have access to long ranged weapons that can strike as far as frankenfurt China's plethora of of anti ship missles will make it difficult for America to move its superior nay into the fight not to mention the Ukraine war shows us that advanced technology maybe better but is more expensive to maintain and replenish unlike Russia which has old and inferior tech but in large swarms Nato does not have the ability to replenish billion dollar equipment in a week unlike Russia can with its cheap equipment and China itself has 5th generation aircraft that even America says can rival thiers Chinese tech is inferior but not as much as Russias the Chinese weapons even beat the Western ones in some cases like China's superior longer range air to air combat missle and about combat experience Russias army is becoming increasingly battle hardened providing them with better equipment could give Nato a much larger issue on Manpower Nato is already dwarfed thier military personnel isn't as large as Russias and China's combined with Brics m3mbers involved it becomes harder Chnese corruption is bad but not to point of defection most Chinese people have been brainwashed into Xi Jinpings will sure the video is unrealistic in some cases but in most it is correct
@thabisoolatotse8725
@thabisoolatotse8725 23 күн бұрын
Now that I look at it yeah it is a bit too unrealistic
@user-sx9jj6zb7r
@user-sx9jj6zb7r 7 күн бұрын
Вот только у нато не будет дегег на войну😂 Если появится глобальная валюта большинство стран прекратят держать валютные резервы в долларах и евро и вкладывать в трежертс и евробонды
@quarterintelligent
@quarterintelligent 16 күн бұрын
no disrespect i love your vids but i could name some stuff that's wrong and i would love to tell you about the mistakes you made with this vid but nonetheless keep up the good work
@millzymsm
@millzymsm 22 күн бұрын
Can u go back to the normal red the dark red hurts my eyes
@primegamersALT
@primegamersALT 23 күн бұрын
you should do a lot of alternate history video scenarios ;)
@ShintoKuriakose-lj8rw
@ShintoKuriakose-lj8rw 7 күн бұрын
😊 blue just imagine USSR coming back
@loganmancini8759
@loganmancini8759 12 күн бұрын
Again bricks is an economy alliance bato is a military defense alliance.
@Manic-gaming_vids
@Manic-gaming_vids 23 күн бұрын
Wow
@aviationaboveall
@aviationaboveall 20 күн бұрын
Funny thing at 6:00 Moscow is just under the peak of the offensive 💀😅
@GeoHelperGuy
@GeoHelperGuy 18 күн бұрын
personally i hate the new shade of red it looks ugly i find it hard to see ☹
@tye6187
@tye6187 16 күн бұрын
what if australia and china went to war
@dumdum2565
@dumdum2565 23 күн бұрын
can you do a AFRICA vs EUROPE or EUROPE & NORTH AMERICA vs ASIA ? pls
@TheKaiserofeurope
@TheKaiserofeurope 23 күн бұрын
Guerilla war
@livthunwathana1175
@livthunwathana1175 15 күн бұрын
U forgot russia great allie: The Winter
@user-ov2nd1gr8w
@user-ov2nd1gr8w 22 күн бұрын
asean as a country
@user-ov2nd1gr8w
@user-ov2nd1gr8w 22 күн бұрын
what if asean became a country please
@Cookiecat6011
@Cookiecat6011 23 күн бұрын
Hi
@TaraDani-pz9xi
@TaraDani-pz9xi 23 күн бұрын
First ( not forcing )
@MulzyGD1
@MulzyGD1 23 күн бұрын
I want to see Age of history 2 again please! Nice video!
@OfficialDoggyYT
@OfficialDoggyYT 23 күн бұрын
BRICS really just said "same fate as Germany"
@BraxxtonWoods-xz6hz
@BraxxtonWoods-xz6hz 21 күн бұрын
@adizzpro I’m not gonna lie I’m mad because in 90% of your videos turkiye just gets steam rolled when they are a strong country turkiye has been referred to as a military nation for hundreds of years so just don’t roll them over there than most of the Middle East thank you!
@BraxxtonWoods-xz6hz
@BraxxtonWoods-xz6hz 21 күн бұрын
Forgot to put there more powerful than most of the middle east
@alt1f4
@alt1f4 16 күн бұрын
Bro they were fighting against millions of chinese, indian, iranian and Brazilian troops
@SamuelDone-bu4ri
@SamuelDone-bu4ri 23 күн бұрын
If you see this heres a video idea: Do a video where europe became on coumtry
@Turbo-rules
@Turbo-rules 23 күн бұрын
Under 4 hours gang 👇 👇
@Ultimate-Two
@Ultimate-Two 23 күн бұрын
Nice vid 🔥🔥🔥
@user-wt3qq5ur4i
@user-wt3qq5ur4i 22 күн бұрын
Adizz serbia would join Brics to get some Land becouse serbia and Russia Are friends and china gives serbia tanks artilery and armor so next time put them in❤❤❤ bye love your vids
@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy
@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy 23 күн бұрын
These kids saying first is maddddd
@soniabouzidi5386
@soniabouzidi5386 23 күн бұрын
yes so mad oh great king oh lord please do not banish me to the dungeon please you are the prettiest most beautiful your wife is magnificent you are so funny and cool for posting that comment great sire
@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy
@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy 23 күн бұрын
​@@soniabouzidi5386??
@coolpillarguy42069
@coolpillarguy42069 23 күн бұрын
My dear lord, how heavenly correct could your information be sire I biblically agree with you my sincere friend
@Oacka
@Oacka 23 күн бұрын
@@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy yo don’t blame her She’s probably using Google translate since she’s probably French.
@Oacka
@Oacka 23 күн бұрын
@@WiktorMatewski-xk7iy and yes this is how bad Google Translate is.
@silverliner4894
@silverliner4894 5 күн бұрын
It would go full nuclear in no time and there wouldn't be any winners
@DavetheAf
@DavetheAf 23 күн бұрын
You were right about the repeat
@soujanyaavadhani7936
@soujanyaavadhani7936 22 күн бұрын
17:03 for the the third time 💀💀💀
@iziahedmondson3146
@iziahedmondson3146 11 күн бұрын
Is it just me or do I think he underestimates NATO???
@netsugreyfang8715
@netsugreyfang8715 20 күн бұрын
16:42 poland has been arming hard in the last few years... they wouldnt fall, finland as well
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