What if Rohan Did Not Help Gondor? Two Theories

[@Frank_Costanzas_Lawyer]

Eru Iluvatar: "Oh, for crying out loud...really, Olorin? Again?!" Olorin: "So the Witch King got in a lucky stab or two, I'm still good for it! Send me back coach!"

[@NFP15]

😂😂😂

[@ramsayburch6738]

Dude I’m dying 🤣

[@crancklord8719]

Gandalf The *WHITER*

[@Alexs.2599]

Hahaha pretty much. For crying out loud Olorin lol

[@huntclanhunt9697]

@@crancklord8719 Gandalf the Chrome.

[@ElRoZa19]

Men of the West: uploads a video Me: And Rohan will answer

[@MenoftheWest]

Rohan will not answer this time unfortunately lol

[@BigBWolf90]

Don't muster the Rohirrim

[@Amiramekki]

Well if they didnt help Gondor, then I would be missing out on of the most glorious scenes of LOTR that gives me goosebumps each time I watch it.

[@MenoftheWest]

Facts right there

[@harrisonmcarthur7816]

Indeed!

[@Count.Saruman]

Or read it, good lad

[@mirza5766]

Where was Rohan when our enemies closed in around us.

[@sushanalone]

Rohan was under official Corona Virus quarantine!

[@IbrahimShah]

Where was Rohan when the westfold fell?

[@MrBigCookieCrumble]

www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/comments/e7d5jo/no_my_lord_aragorn_we_arent_alone/

[@Txkken]

Where was gond....

[@informationyes]

We didn't get the message turns out telling people to stand on top of a mountain non stop for years on end was a bad idea

[@glennross85]

The isolationist policies of the Elves is looking pretty wise right now.

[@yourstruly4817]

Glasses shall be shaken, wine barrels shall be splintered, a laze day, a booze day ere the sun rizes

[@quinnwatson951]

Spoiler: They would all die.

[@CFLsurfr]

Or would the Army of the Dead had achieved the same outcome? I'm betting since they're dead, yes.

[@navindavoodi6065]

Tyler Schutz in the books, the army of the dead only helped Aragorn to defeat the Corsair forces. They didn’t help in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

[@dancm5929]

@@navindavoodi6065 They are also not as effective as depicted in the films. They only inflict some degree of terror to the enemy.

[@almVancouver]

3rd theory: Aragon summoned King Theodin,. but was deceived. The entire host of Rohan showed up and overtook the king and those with him. After, they continued to ride to Gondor and took the throne for themselves. It was a relatively easy revolution as their host far outweighed any other left in Middle Earth. The line of Rohan kings went on, the line of Numenor was ended, Arwin travelled the lonely woods alone till the end of days cursing men of all stripes. Thus began the 4th age. The age of men and their wicked ways.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Jokes aside it actually worse the betray of Theoden when we think about, i mean Aragorn helped the old king guard Rohan and win Helms deep but when the time came to repay the favour and honour ancient vows Theoden broke the trust and vows, he would be even worse than the oathbreakers of old. as Aragorn did help him first while those mountain men only promised aid but never gave it.

[@phoule76]

Interesting result! Extreme Theoden! Would he still have been under Saruman's control, at that point?

[@Count.Saruman]

How did you discover the extent of my plans for Théoden?! Are there yet seers among the Noldor apart from Artanis?

[@Count.Saruman]

@@phoule76 That is what I sought to ensure, curse the Valar!

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@Ghazzillion Films Yeah it does, but letting Gondor fall would be a very bad move since well the armies of Mordor will now just take over to Rohan and crush you to.

[@firebearva]

If the riders of Rohan didn't save the day we would all be speaking in dark speech.

[@villekuronen6242]

@Ghazzillion Films that might be better option out of those 2

[@theranger6411]

Well if Rohan did not help Gondor than kiss Middle-Earth goodbye.

[@victorbruant389]

Men of the West? Where was Men of the West when the Westfold fell? Where was Men of the West when our enemies closed in around us!? Where was Men - No, my Lord Aragorn, we are alone.

[@loremaster234]

Victor Bruant And who will come? Geekzone, Lore of Middle Earth? We are not so lucky in our friends as you.

[@jesuscoyt-munoz2753]

The old KZbin alliances are dead!

[@loremaster234]

Jesus Coyt-Munoz No, my lord Munoz, we ARE alone.

[@Gwilfawe]

@@loremaster234 Of course you are, and I'm coming with you(!)

[@jesuscoyt-munoz2753]

Very well secure the subscribers we are off to binge!

[@MrDuck797]

What if Boromir succeeded in taking the One Ring?

[@sushanalone]

Ned Stark would have not lost his head. He would have just gone invisible.

[@CrookedRosePOD]

That would be an amazing what if videon

[@ToddTheTolerable]

"Zero spears... exactly the number I'd hoped for." ~Bitter King Theoden overlooking his Gondor Relief Force

[@snoopymcbaron1569]

Men of the West: uploads Me rushing to buy toilet paper in target: better watch this in the quiet office supply aisle first.

[@wagner.h2o]

The best JRR Tolkien enthusiast

[@geviesanta3631]

It's kinda sad how most of these what if Theories could end in tragedy. Yet we only had at least two vids for this series that had a satisfying ending.

[@MenoftheWest]

For real, I completely understand. I think it shows how slim the hopes of victory over the darkness were in Middle-earth, but that hope won in the end all the same!

[@jofr6892]

Well at he have an excuse, that the free people of middle Earth where against such overwhelming odds. Naruto Explained What Ifs, that guy even if the good guys gets more powerful ninjas or if characters get more powerful upgrade. He will find some way to make them lose.

[@MajesticSkywhale]

wow here at no views. Stay healthy in these trying times fellow men

[@arveanturtelcontar6138]

Beleriand and Gil-Galad theory !!

[@smashbash123]

Video was way more interesting than I expected! The multiple theories was excellent and made for an especially interesting video. All I expected was "they will all die", your second theory that ended with the Rohirrim becoming the new oath breakers was awesome!

[@NicholasRodriguezN7]

Fantastic video as always! I love how the characters and world are so well developed that you can make have these discussions and they make complete sense. It's not like up in the air.

[@marcm.3888]

I think that second one is more likely. I wonder if Eowyn would have gathered a group of Rohan soldiers to go to Gondor's aid still, despite Theoden's orders.

[@ladyalaina42]

Both she and Éomer would have gone with Aragorn and the army would have followed. No way would they not have answered!

[@nipnip2551]

Do a versus series where you take two artifacts or two beasts or two characters and tells us about each one and which one you would rather have, or who would win. For example glamdring vs Anduril look at the history of the swords, look at there feats, who wielded them and determine which one you would take to battle. other ones you could do are light of earendil vs the arkenstone, gothmog the balrog vs Smaug and Aragorn vs thranduil.

[@jamesfry8983]

Well I was about to go to bed its 2:20 am (uk) but im more interested in watching this

[@AdvancedLiving]

Aragorn: “the beacons are lit, Gondor calls for aid...” Theodin: “f*ck em.” (End scene)

[@Halbared]

Those lines in the book, are amongst my favourite, mayhap the top 5, 'Horns, horns, horns, in dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.'

[@qwertyTRiG]

It's so evocative.

[@geviesanta3631]

Honestly, I think it would be great and interesting to do the what if Theories with more than one possibility.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Thanks for another wonderful video. And a wonderful lesson.

[@WizardAnimations]

Man... that was an amazing scene... the horns... theodens speech, the soundtrack was my favorite aspect. It was a scene of hope and sheer badassery! If it never happened... well... Sauron would've likely won

[@Nathan-uf8wu]

I loved the multiple endings, it really speaks to the power on certain characters decisions, and how doing one thing or not doing one thing can change everything.

[@huntclanhunt9697]

Is there a chance that Sauron might have been so distracted by his conquest of Gondor that Frodo and Sam may have still managed undetected? Pipin may have been killed in Minas Tirith by orcs before others could have recognised him. Gondor did not come to Rohan's aid, therefore Rohan could have denied their oath on grounds that Gondor made it null and void. How would Aragorn force them out of the land anyways? His army and nation would be crippled. Rohan could overthrow him easily.

[@ItssEthan00]

Don't forget that mordor was littered with many Armies of Orcs. The only way Frodo and Sam could make it to Mount Doom undetected was by Aragorns offensive which distracted the Orcs.

[@imperiumromanum7375]

"I SEE YOU! THERE IS NO LIFE IN THE VOID... ONLY DEATH" ~ Sauron

[@ChiaraSiasat]

If Rohan hadn’t helped Gondor.. Middle Earth would have been a lost cause and Sauron would have taken over the world.

[@walterwhite6393]

Nah man those ghosts where Aragorn went for help, they would have still wiped out Mordors army with or with out the help of Rohan.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@walterwhite6393 Not in the book as he released the army before they got to the city.

[@jorgepalomo6417]

@@walterwhite6393 nope

[@_semih_]

@@walterwhite6393 nope. Dauron could Control Army of deads minds. He is Lord of the spirits/ghosts.

[@isaacdunn6589]

Gandalf faced off against a Balrog and now a ring wraith is too much for him? Not sure why LoTR online has so much credibility to start off with this a the unquestionable foundation of the "What If".

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

not just the Witch King the other nazgul would have jumped in i bet and the army of darkness as well, i doubt the Witch King was going to play fair now.

[@kiranpranathi]

I think the book mentions that Gandalf used his full power only against the balrog, by some pact of the Maiar they could only use the power of Valinor against other Maia, such as the balrog.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@kiranpranathi People also forget that the Witch king it seems has been buffed up by Sauron by dark sorcery or some other dark arts.

[@Laureasairon]

It would be interesting to see the full arsenal of Gandalf's abilities in that hour of desperate need. 1v1 he would never lose to WK, not even in the heart of Mordor. The orcs would be very numerous though, pouring through the gate... Would be cool to see what miracle Gandalf might have done... and if!

[@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS]

Lord of the Rings Online has the most Lore-Accurate depictions of Tolkein in media, and I agree with much of their theories like about earnur being gothmog. I loved how you expanded on this what if we briefly saw in game. thank you for the video.

[@napoleoncomplex2712]

I can't imagine Theoden going quietly. Even this diminished version of him, unless wracked with guilt and still with enough respect among his men to lead them forth from the land.

[@grafspe807]

The quest in Lotro that you take this from is very well done. I was like WTF is going on then it end sup being a dream . Nicely done Lotro

[@therealdarkwhale7977]

You did a really good job with this one, well done Joystan depressing and sad but one of the most interesting theories I have ever watched. GREAT video! Keep up the good work.

[@steffenritter7497]

Very well done. I've read these books many times in the last 63-64 years (since I learned to read at a young age). Quite frankly, it never occurred to me that Theoden would NOT lead his forces to the aid of Gondor. He was a man of honor, and even though angry that Gondor did not ride to his aid ... he must have thought that Gondor was much stronger than it was ... when the signal fires were lit, he knew what he had to do. Thanks for this fine video. Well-thought out.

[@anarion43]

Nice vid

[@brandonluker3660]

Mae govannen Yoystan. This was indeed a sad video, but very good nevertheless.

[@agentspaniel4428]

Imagine if instead of the Rohirim it's the Easterling and Haradrim horse warriors that break the back of Sauron's army

[@Gjergji311]

Regarding the first theory, wouldn’t Sauron’s recovery of the Ring basically trigger the War of Wrath, Part II?

[@balrog262]

Yes, what say you?

[@jesuscoyt-munoz2753]

Actually in my opinion I think it’d trigger the dagor dagoroth

[@balrog262]

@@jesuscoyt-munoz2753 Interesting.

[@Pento_alex]

What if gandalf survived Moria?

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Very interesting actually it would depend how he survived.

[@redblaze8700]

@@RomanHistoryFan476AD He simply avoids the whip from the Balrog

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@redblaze8700 That does mean the balrog is now still alive and might hunt the fellowship as he could sense the ring i bet. a weaker Gandalf could not overpower the evils of Sarauman nor cast magic strong enough to drive off the nine from they where chasing faramir. I think Evil could win since the White Rider is not there as a guiding light though the darkness.

[@thebag-lt6wv]

Please keep doing theories like this, great video

[@jesuscoyt-munoz2753]

Interesting theory video yoystan and I still enjoyed it very much especially since it’s the anniversary of when it happened on lord of the rings time. And I’d like to make a request could you do a what if video if thorin took the one ring from bilbo in the hobbit or perhaps a theory on what if erebor and dale were never attacked by Easterlings? Thank you very much for your great videos namarie!

[@dsp8363]

Great stuff per usual!

[@terminallove3531]

Wait,if Rohan never went and helped at Minas Tirith then Theoden would still be alive because in the cannon he was killed at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Edit:Forgive me,I heard Eomer.

[@MenoftheWest]

Yep! In this video he survives on in Rohan.

[@terminallove3531]

@@MenoftheWest You accent is weird. Where are you from? If you're uncomfortable with the question you needn't answer it.

[@MenoftheWest]

@@terminallove3531 No problem! I'm from the western US!

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Ah but his soul forever be damned in the second timeline, and i doubt in the first will Eru look favourably upon him after death. But lucky for all Theoden was no coward he was a king and did his duty.

[@CharlesMarlow1898]

Please, keep doing what you do MEN OF THE WEST for as long as you might... Your work is important. Archetypes are essential.

[@taumpytears6999]

I really like these 'Men Of The West' dissertations , I wish my Pop could have watched these presentations but he passed before I ever knew of this channel. These are all well done

[@Crazyhorse75-u2z]

I always thought, especially in the movie, that rohan showing up in gondor was a moot point. Once aragorn showed up with the army of the dead, what rohan did was unnecessary. All that happened was alot of the rohirim, especially their king died.

[@ThomasstevenSlater]

He's already released the dead by then

[@johnst.baptiste3664]

Great video, as always

[@b47bobo99]

Anyone Else notice master Yoda behind Sauron in the artwork at 8:20?

[@abhijitpawar1568]

Great theory video. I had another idea for a theory video: What if the men of the mountain, hadn't broken their oath to Isildur and fought with him against Sauron?

[@hughgedney3393]

A very extremely great video as always Men of the West. And I like this style better.

[@77777Spooky]

Divide and Conquer, Sauron would have won.

[@IbrahimShah]

This was exceptionally good ♥

[@OrkosUA]

Another on of your awesome what if videos!

[@marionbaggins]

I enjoy the Multi-Parts that you did for this...can't wait for others like this!!! You said on the video on the 15th of March and you Upload the Video on that day...WOW, what are the chances?!!! Thanks Mellon for this sad Theory Video...Until Another Livestream: That I possibly can't make this first hour or at all, because sleep and Work...Marion Baggins Out!!!

[@noahnieto5253]

Love these videos!

[@wk3818]

These "What ifs" are always so sad. But I can't imagine Theodin had a cowardly or dishonorable thought within him. His final words to Eowin were about standing as equal without shame with his forefathers in the afterlife.

[@brajenfoto]

What if Beleriand Survived? Please Next Video🙏

[@naphasorn3993]

great​ video!

[@jonathanhenrygallant]

Love this channel. Just wondering if you could do. A video on Dunharrow and/or pukel-men Thanks!

[@814TrumpArmy]

I enjoyed them both and i do 100 percent think their would have been some sort of fragemtns of another plan if gondor falls so i relaly enjoyed the 2nd one most of all! Keep up the great work! Keeep up the great subjects! and keep up the great art that goes with that story! Thumnbs up to all that contribute!

[@Sprock49]

Well done!

[@rabronin]

I think both of these theories are highly probable. And I like the multiple theory approach as it allows for there to be something else besides a super-positive or super-negative outcome. This video being a good example.

[@stefangrubesic2708]

As wise as Aragorn was I don't think he could have let Minas Tirith fall without trying to save it even though he would've been for sure aware of his certain death

[@craigbryan6980]

True, especially as he would've forsaken his promise to Boromir. I feel it would've been more in character for Aragorn to honour his word, than to act tactfully

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

please do what if Gondor had sent reinforcements to Rohan to help against Saruman

[@graycuber6933]

Another upload!

[@widowmaker4976]

The second theory is my favorite, it's bittersweet. But with hope, despite the despair. It's perfectly Tolkienesque in that way, and I love it for that.

[@connorhall5665]

Theory 2 literally makes no sense, Gondor already voided the oath by failing to aid Rohan during Helm's Deep and even long before then, so his curse thing wouldn't do anything to them, also, they just obey and leave? Why? Because they do as they're told? Very silly idea

[@shawnberry760]

What a perfect story! Both of them were great! Please do more! Maybe what if Aragorn chose aowen instead of Arwen?

[@captains_corner]

Where was GONDOR when the Westfold fell!!

[@St3v3z]

What if Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli caught up with the Uruk-Hai that had captured Merry and Pippin? What exactly was their plan? To kill them all? To sneak the Hobbits away in the dead of night when surely the Uruks would have lookouts keeping a watchful eye on them? I need to know!

[@voldmerot]

None of it matters, only Sam really matters. If it were not for Sam Gamgee, they'd all be truly doomed.

[@AndrewMcColl]

Playing through the 'Gondor falls' quests in LotRO was a whole lot of fun, especially since I took a short break just after starting the arc, so kinda forgot how it had begun by the end.

[@BigBWolf90]

Men of Gondor: Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? Where is the helm and the haurberk, and the bright hair blowing? Where is the hand on the harp string, and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? They have passed like rain on the mountain, like wind in the meadow; the days have gone down in the west behind the hill into shadow. Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning? Or behold the flowing years from the Sea retuning? How did it come to this?

[@celestejohnston6613]

Wow. That was a downer. Personally I would have been more interested in "What if Beleriand had survived?" That provided more scope. Gondor falls if Rohan doesn't help.

[@InstigationFixation]

Yeah, this question is ridiculously straight forward, and I'm more than a bit disappointed he even included it.

[@IronDragon-2143]

Good grief, even with the best ending in this theory that's very depressing. Hey, what if Gandalf didn't fall in Moria and remained with the Fellowship of the Ring?

[@realworldforum]

1.What if the Rangers united and reforged Arnor? 2.What if Gil-Galad never died? 3.What if Earnur never died?

[@phoule76]

That 2nd theory kicks ass. It needs a movie adaptation!

[@lassiefish6838]

were did you get all the art from? it's very good!

[@ginolorenzo4117]

Aragorn: *sets the ghost army free before the war is won* Gondor: WTF..

[@Bobby11567]

Then we wouldnt have had that amazing scene and music

[@SconnieTwoFive]

I don't think Gandalf dies, as being The White pretty much means he is nearly pure Maiar (and has the restrictions of veiling his power mostly removed) and will instead kick all the ass until Sauron comes himself. The City still likely falls, and Faramir dies for sure. The Rohirrim, however, likely comes, but is held up by the army of Mordor entrenched in Anorien, and does not link up with Aragorn coming from the South. Fan time: Aragorn uses the Palantir again and sees that Rohan is in trouble on the North Road, and knowing that he cannot overcome the legions of Morgul with his gathered force sails further upriver, as you suggested, but hurries across the plains of Anorien, links up with Theoden and the surviving Riders, crushes that army, continues south to Minas Tirith, still come upon the rear of the besiegers with Gandalf still holding them back, however, having had to withdraw to the 3rd or 4th circle. Each withdraw, however, comes with the death of a Ringwraith, the Witch King "dying" to take the main gate.

[@windfire5380]

Both theories are good. I certainly like the second one better. Would have been a good moral story on the price of pride and cowardice. It also may give us a hint as to what happened to the first set of oath breakers (I've not heard the story--I'm sure there is one).

[@bluebeard6189]

Your depiction of the death of Gandalf while immensely sad, is quite beautiful. That having been said I was truly satisfied to know the character I absolutely hated in both the movies and the books Pippin met a much-deserved foul end.

[@worker-wf2em]

“Rohan has not come to our aid!” Dead men of Dunharrow: “And?”

[@tomzandbergen4590]

7:25 'and indeed, he came' - what sorrowful for the hopes of all free folk

[@knickohr01]

1:18 so the battle was yesterday (and a few years ago)? I didn't know that. I watched it actually the evening before it took place (or the evening it started)

[@NightingaleAlt]

Army of the Dead: Am I a joke to you?

[@coreymicallef365]

In that second scenario why would Rohan just quietly accept Aragorn banishing them from their own lands, wouldn't they have fought for the territory they'd lived on for over 500 years at that point? Sure Gondor's stronger and likely would have won the war (even if it was still recovering from the War of the Ring), but the stakes for Rohan is its very existence (at best they fight a desperate war to take over a new homeland or live as nomads with the effective destruction of their culture and an at best much reduced population). Or perhaps they could have negotiated a less extreme option like giving up their sovereignty to Gondor (vassalisation or annexation) in exchange for not being being exiled (which would likely have led to a nearly genocidal outcome with the Rohirrim dying of starvation and exposure in exile)? I can't stress this part enough, any option other than meekly accepting their exile would have likely yielded a far more positive outcome for Rohan, even if Gondor rolled over them, obliterated their defences, and forcefully conquered them in an extremely bloody fashion, it is extremely unlikely that Aragorn would have ordered or allowed a genocide. So why go along with the exile.

[@OrhohielTheArcher]

Good video, but in the beginning I don't think gandalf would have lost to the witch king. The difference in power is too great. Gandalf always remains a maiar, while the witch is a human in wraith form.

[@MartinCHorowitz]

Gandalf would respawn as Gandalf the even whiter, with the ability teleport The Forces of Rohan to the battle a new sword names noman to kill the ring wraiths...

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Nah we need a new colour, Sliver, Gold see though even.

[@DBSSTEELER]

You really think the people of Rohan A: would not explain their reasons for not coming, and B: would not have made furious war on Gondor to defend their homes? 15,000 mounted knights versus the resents Gondor could muster after the war with Mordor would be a decisive defeat for the south kingdom.

[@istari0]

Very well done! I can't disagree that Gandalf would likely fall in such a scenario but I think he would have taken the Witch King with him.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

There is a third option, Eru brings Gandalf back again this time as Gandalf the Whiter. Either that or we are now Going Gandalf the see though or Sliver. To those wondering how Gandalf was beaten by the witch King it is very simple, One on One Gandalf would likely take the victory even if the Witch King had been powered up by Sauron before the siege. But The Witch King would have known this i assume and cheated and the other Nazgul i bet ganged up on Gandalf as well along with other evil servants. Gandalf was also i bet protecting others nearby as well which distracted him. It was like a big animal versus a swarm of ants in a way little bite by bite the bigger animal is worn down till they finally die. Another grand video Men of the West well done, great Theory makes me glad that Theoden was no coward in the end but a Man of Rohan.

[@balrog262]

Well, Olorin would make more sense.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@balrog262 You mean come back as his true self.

[@balrog262]

@@RomanHistoryFan476AD Yes.

[@TheRoguePrince0]

Is it true gandalf could have ended the battle with a tap of his magic staff

[@sapiensfromterra5103]

What if Gandalf didn't fall in Khazad Dum?