What If The DPOY Existed Before 1983?

[@rtosborne3]

Excellent video. I appreciate it when people honor the greats of the past that often get overlooked today.

[@lilpenny1982]

Bill Russell's legacy would be different if DPOY was awarded in his era

[@brockgeorge777]

Bill Walton was a good call. He was almost certainly on his way to leading Portland to back-to-back titles, but then except for the 1986 Season his feet pretty much ruined the rest of his career.

[@HiNRGboy]

That happened with Andrew Toney too, great shooting guard, bad feet...it sucks because he was one of the best SG's in the league in the early 80's, threatening Boston every year.

[@smokeyjoe795]

​@@HiNRGboyThe way 76ers management dealt with Toney and his injury is disgraceful. Just 6 years earlier they saw what happened with Walton. They should have had some clue about stress fractures. Instead they questioned Toney's commitment to play. To make it worse they ship Moses Malone out of Philly because he spoke up for Andrew Toney. That team could have had some years left.

[@jamelwilliams808]

I'm new to the channel, 45yrs old and just now seeing footage of NBA in 1970s! WoW Thanks Bro OmG! You got yourself a new customer (subscriber)

[@leodrosia4369]

Russell said during 1972 all Star game that old wilt was much better defender than Kareem ....nate Thurmond and russ of course were better defenders too

[@stevenelson3515]

Like hearing props for Nate. Great underrated player…..and a very nice man.

[@krisharkleroad8]

Nate was great.

[@smokeyjoe795]

Russell might have been biased. Kareem was much quicker than Wilt, had more agility than Chamberlain and better timing as a shotblocker. Chamberlain only had bulk but he did goaltend quite a bit.n Actual defense Kareem just cover more terriotory.

[@leodrosia4369]

@@smokeyjoe795 wilt averaged 8.8 blocks a game and young wilt was much faster, stronger , could jump higher than kaj

[@IceBreakerMD]

Wow, impressive video! Thanks for doing all that research. I did not know about many players’ perennial defensive prowess (other than the usually celebrated names).

[@martezdetroit3164]

I applaude your efforts and taking the time to explore this venture

[@millertime6178]

10 consecutive DPOY’s for Russell would’ve been bonkers!!

[@BasketballJones48021]

Great job! Agree with the vast majority of these.

[@lukecash3500]

Hell yeah, I didn't realize you were already gonna upload this. Very nice vid, keep it up man.

[@leifnielson6849]

these videos are dope kid!!

[@antinazi1959]

I kept waiting for Elvin Hayes to show up on the list. I loved watching him dominate games at both ends of the floor.

[@loydkline]

Pioneer turn around jump shot Elvis hayes

[@82and0]

Awsome vid man

[@mizzo9]

I love and appreciate great D so thank you for the work you put into this! I’m good with your list since Clyde Frazier and Bill Walton got at least one! I really wish Walton was healthy throughout his career.

[@charlescohen6140]

I go back to 1950 so I’ve seen a lot of ball and the Celtics on many occasions. But although I always hated them because they were so good there was Bill Russell on defense and then everyone else. And of course they had KC Jones and later Havlicek and Satch Sanders. But it was a much less athletic league than today so it is difficult to really compare especially since the three point shot came in.

[@kincamell2]

Much Gratitude Ps Peace to Bill Russell

[@loydkline]

Willis reed passed away

[@charlescohen6140]

And very good tape. Thanks.

[@cliffordsy4249]

There was a time Wilt really got bothered by the fact that not only Russell had 7 titles while he had none. Rusaell also had 5 mvps while wilt pnly had 1. despite Wilt knowing he was the best player by far during that 60s stretch.

[@73Trident]

Best by far HOW.

[@ehoffman2260]

@@73Trident people look at MVP or best player differently and that’s perfectly fine, but you can see where Wilt would feel slighted sometimes. No other player has ever averaged 40 points and 20 rebounds a game for a single season. Wilt averaged that for his first seven seasons.

[@stevenelson3515]

Wilt was the best basketball player of the time. Russell was the most valuable to his team. He never had Wilt’s points, not because he couldn’t score, but because Auerbach used him for different purposes. Both were great shot blockers. But Russell was a master of redirecting those blocks to his teammates to get out on the fast break. Russ may not have gotten the points or, at times, even the assist, but the points wouldn’t have been scored without him.

[@mane4689]

@@stevenelson3515 pls stop saying Russell was more valuable than Wilt ,Russell had great teammates to go along him while Wilt had descent to good teammates !!

[@mane4689]

@@stevenelson3515 the Man dogged Russell in everyway Possible on the Court !!!

[@amadousinghateh4541]

Maurice stokes would have been great

[@DrJohnnyJ]

That is the most honest introduction ever. I have no idea how the defensive win share is calculated for Bill Russell. Based on what?

[@Aarontank24]

You should do, what if the nba season mvp was given to two players. Could be 2000s or 2010s.

[@Solanegore]

GREAT VIDEO!

[@cliffordsy4249]

Very seldom that an NBA aficionado went down the nitty gritty of early generation NBA. Even more seldom is when something new about the legends of the past has been told. Just like wilt chamberlain archives, I learned something new. Excellent work. Just want to ask where did you get the wilt average blocks per season? so far the only research i saw was the 118 games he played which blocks were kept. showing an 8.8 bpg average. for wilt to average around 14 in a season was another eye popping stat line no one could equal.

[@wvu05]

I think the 8.8 bpg was a career stat.

[@cliffordsy4249]

@@wvu05 i think so too for the 118 games available at the time.

[@kevindickson2178]

good video (and i don't say that often). dj was a great defender. others i like are t.r. dunn, west, cheeks, and jackie moon.

[@Charon58]

Russell was a great defensive player. He was never better than Wilt. If the DPOY was awarded before ‘81 it would be called the Wilt Chamberlain award. Wilt once blocked 26 shots in a single game. He had many quadruple doubles and at least one Septuple Double with 24 blocks and 11 steals in the same game. His combination of height, strength, agility and quickness puts him in a league of his own. He would have won the award for the first 10 years of his career at least.

[@MovieGuy666]

exactly

[@tj5180]

Wilt was a great defender and I think he should've won the dpoy in other seasons but that doesn't downplay russell defense

[@Dustin-pb7nm]

Then Wilt Chamberlain would 13 dpoys

[@vernonleewarren280]

Great video! Thank you for honoring past greatness

[@perfectblue8443]

what a good video

[@cliffordsy4249]

For Russell to win a record 10 straight might be too much. Wilt most likely will get some of them during that period perhaps of voter fatigue. But of course Wilt could have won more than 4 MVP's. Its just that during that time they really never liked Wilt. He was indeed the Goliath during that period. So when Russell won 2 of his 5 MVP's he was in the NBA second team whereas Wilt was at the first team.

[@ehoffman2260]

True, Wilt wasn’t even the MVP the year he averaged 50 points and 25 rebounds a game. That tells the story.

[@73Trident]

@@ehoffman2260 Here's the story - the players voted for the MVP back then. Russell was MVP by his peers.

[@ehoffman2260]

@@73Trident Russell was a great player. Wilt averaged 50.4 points a game on .506% shooting and 25.7 rebounds. Russell averaged 18.9 points per game on .457% shooting and 23.6 rebounds. That’s a massive difference. Frankly, Wilt was far superior. Players can have a bias just like the press.

[@vestibulate]

@@ehoffman2260 The players looked beyond stats. Having tangled with all of their peers- on the court not the score sheet- they considered which man contributed the most to his team's success. I don't think players disliked Chamberlain. He was personable and generous, so I've heard. But overall, Russell was frequently (not always) judged to be more important to his team in more ways- thus, more valuable- than Wilt. Those championships didn't hurt, either.

[@mane4689]

Amen Brother

[@deebofleebo6427]

The DPOY DOES NOT go to the best defensive player each year anyway! If it did, Olajuwon would've had about 7 DPOY awards in his career! Between 84'-95' Olajuwon recorded at least 100 steals and at least 200 blocks every single season! In 89'-90', Olajuwon avg 24ppg, 14rpg(led NBA), 2.9apg, recorded 174 steals(2.1spg), and 376 blocks(4.6bpg, led NBA), yet somehow didn't win MVP or DPOY that season! He also became the only player in history to record 200+ blocks and 200+ steals in the same season the year before, yet still didn't win DPOY, his 2 awards came in the seasons where he wasn't even playing his best defense of his career!

[@toddstevens13]

Back then , it could not be that Olajuwon was not American, as to why he did not get either MVP or DPOY, could it? Naw.

[@deebofleebo6427]

@@toddstevens13 what's that gotta do with getting the awards he earned? I know he wasn't on the 92' Dream Team cuz he wasn't a citizen, but that has nothing to do with getting the awards

[@toddstevens13]

@@deebofleebo6427 It was a far more "overtly" racist time then, so put it out there that those in charge of the NBA etc. might not of wanted a Nigerian born player as MVP. You can not understand that, really? I am 62 years old and know exactly what it was like then, now it is far more hidden but still prevalent. He deserved to be MVP that year, by a mile, but he was not, Why do you think that was???

[@deebofleebo6427]

@@toddstevens13 maybe cuz he was Muslim!

[@mane4689]

Dammm Hakeem was a Monster

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

5:38 Wilt was #3 in assists the year before (when his 76ers won their championship). That decided him (per his biography) to target assists the following year, as "a record no other center ever managed". But it went down to the last game or 2 of the season, between Wilt and Oscar Robinson (who had a slightly "off" season that year on assists).

[@rtosborne3]

Not true. Oscar didn't have an off season, and actually led the NBA in Assists per Game in 1968 with 9.7, but missed 17 games due to injury. Wilt led in total assists by a considerable margin, besting Oscar 702 to 633, so it didn't go down to the last couple games either. In fact, Oscar finished 3rd, behind Wilt and Lenny Wilkens, who had 679.

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

@@rtosborne3 I didn't say WHY Oscar had an off season (for him) on assists. Missing those games certainly affected his total. Wilt's last 4 games that season were 10,14,19,12 Lenny's last 4 was 6,10,6,19 78 games into the season, the totals were 647 Wilt to 638 Lenny - so yes, it WAS close right up to the end., not the "blowout" you are trying to claim - but I'd misremembered it being Oscar instead of Lenny that year.

[@rtosborne3]

@@bricefleckenstein9666 - It was a "blow out" over Oscar. I was addressing what you actually said, not what you mis-remembered.

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

11:40 BU SE It's pronounced as 2 syllables with a long E - take it from an *ABA* Pacers fan. But I grant it's spelled the other way. BTW - this was his *second* lead-leading SPG season - the first was the season before, when Don and the Pacers were still in the ABA. I suspect he may be the ONLY player to lead BOTH LEAGUES in both SPG *AND* Assists per Game (same 2 years, he led each league in BOTH stats each year).

[@mrcigartruth3832]

Yes. BooSee.

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

@@mrcigartruth3832 Nice spelling, and makes the point. 8-)

[@senseichess8688]

Caldwell Jones was pretty good on defense too

[@zacharyaustin1654]

You should pick the players from 1951 to 1968 for The All NBA Defensive First and Second Teams.

[@TazMan05]

Great one 👌

[@m.r.daileyii1180]

great work !!!!

[@senseichess8688]

Jerry sloan was a great choice he was the best defensive guard i have ever seen...that bulls team had norm van lier bob Weiss and Tom boerwinkle..rugged defense played there

[@senseichess8688]

Bill Russell..wilt Chamberlain....john havlicek Jerry west Nate thurmond..jerry Sloan..satch sanders ...walt Frazier bobby Jones..norm van lier ...are some great defenders who come to mind...especially Russell wilt and sloan

[@senseichess8688]

Kareem too

[@kingofnewyork7765]

Committing less fouls doesn’t necessarily mean bad defense, sometimes you have to foul to prevent bad defense

[@universalplayz7496]

There is no eye test to show this for the early 1950s so not much to go

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

There is a reason "Hack-a-Wilt" long predated "Hack-a-Shaq" - and "Hack-a-Bill" never existed to any real degree. Not that Bill was a better FT% shooter (he's right down there with the other 2 in the Bottom 5), but he just didn't SHOOT a lot.

[@oldeskoolnewsreels9927]

@@bricefleckenstein9666I It's a good thing he didn't shoot more. He has a negative career TS add(TS points added). He has 5 seasons with a zero or negative FG add and 7 seasons with a negative TS add. This means that the "average" player was more efficient than Bill. Wilt is first in FG add and Kareem is second. Kareem is first in TS add and Wilt is third.

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

12:53 29 minutes per game is NOT a "role players minutes". That's a STARTER's minutes - abet a little on the low side.

[@yrh1gs]

Interesting list. But where is Jerry West? Before Wilt came to LA he was often assigned to guard bigger taller players and has long arms like a 6'7 6'8 forward. And no mention of Nate Thurman who played Kareem as tough as anyone

[@UBboxing]

Nate was often a very good defender but his evaluation across the 60s was to find rebounds, DWS and all them stats which Nate did indeed have, averaging 20+ rebounds in a single season at some points but his defensive winshares were quite low. For example in 1967 where he and his team made the finals against philly, Russell had 9.2 DWS and Wilt had 7.0 DWS with Nate coming in third with 5.6. Although He was a great defender and has a case for being a top 5 defender of all time, there were just to many really good defensive seasons by other men who overshadowed him frequently as he was maybe the second or mostly the third best defensive center whilst there were 4 other positions trying to claim the same award. Jerry although a great defender wasn't ever winning the award or coming close to it around that time. in 1965 he came 34th in defensive winshares and often finsihed around that margin in the league. steals and blocks weren't kept track of till his final season where he would snatch up 2.6 steals per game. Really incredible that is but got 0.7 blocks and just 3.6 rebounds per game. Him not being a rebounder is what kept him from winning the award most of the time as wilt and russell where averaging 20+ with west claiming 6 ish a game. Great defensive guard for the time and one of the best defensive guards ever. But sine steals weren't kept track of till his last season and the ridiculous talent of defensive around in his time. There wasn't any chance of him claiming the award.

[@amadousinghateh4541]

1967 should be wilt

[@YahuchananYakazqaalYashraal]

This.is.why.I.don't get into.G.O.A.T conversations.imagine if the NBA.was created like.it is now in 1947 with a 3 pooint line and with all the awards can you imagine what Russell ,WILt,Oscar and Jerry Wests resume would've look like?

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

Bill would own at least 7, probably 8, possibly 9 Finals MVP awards, at least 10 and possibly 12 DPOY awards. MVP would not change, that already existed.

[@YahuchananYakazqaalYashraal]

@@bricefleckenstein9666 I agree and iam going to say Russell wouldn't have won 11 NBA titles but 7 because Jerry West would've had a 3 point line that wouldve changed history

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

@In your mom's guts There is more to defense than blocks and rebounds. There is a REASON why Wilt's PEAK Defensive Win Shares season (1967) was about a HALF A WIN SHARE more than Bill's CAREER AVERAGE (over 10 per season, factoring in his rookie season was only 48 games due to his Olympics time delaying Bill's entry into the NBA). To be fair, Wilt probably wins *2* DPOY over Bill in the seasons they shared - 1967 and 1969 - and Bill probably is not DPOY in his rookie season, leaving him 10 out of 13 with the MAJORITY of those putting Wilt at *2nd at best*. There were also a couple of "both in the league" seasons when *BILL* was the rebounder leader. Blocks weren't tracked - Wilt likely had more, but Bills were MORE EFFECTIVE as they tended to be turnovers vs Wilt's "swat it into the stands, same team gets the ball back" usual in the first 3/4ths or so of his time in the league.

[@charlescohen6140]

@@YahuchananYakazqaalYashraal West, amazingly, is the most underrated player ever. Just look up his stats in the college tournaments and in the pros. The one year, against KC Jones and Russell he averaged over 40 per. And Captain Clutch.

[@YahuchananYakazqaalYashraal]

@@charlescohen6140 add the 3 point line to West game smh wow he wouldve lit Boston up and history would have been different

[@bricefleckenstein9666]

5:57 And for perspective. Bill AVERAGED 10 DWS for his entire career (a bit higher given the 48 game Rookie Season Bill had due to his Olympics time). Wilt's BEST SEASON barely beat Bill's AVERAGE.

[@rtosborne3]

Russell was an amazing defender, but win shares of any type are a bit misleading, since they are based on your team's total wins. The Celtics usually won the most games, so there were more win shares to be distributed to Russell than other players. Still, he is probably the best defender ever, but Wilt was a closer to Russell defensively than Russell was to Wilt offensively.

[@greggibson33]

@@rtosborne3 Why is Russell considered better if Wilt had more rebounds and more blocked shots? The win shares are totally irrelevant because Wilt played on crappy teams.

[@mane4689]

@@greggibson33 lots of misleading crap when it comes to Wilt you can clearly see he was better than Russell at every level of the game Russell just had better teammates !!!

[@greggibson33]

@@mane4689 100% correct.

[@universalplayz7496]

This excludes the fact russel team won more than wilts Meaning thiers simply more raw winshares to gain Now idk if wilts defensive winshare relative to total wins is higher or not But I believe it's FAR closer

[@nicolasrubiorodriguez2173]

could yo do a video of the best nba finals series that did not happened??

[@kingofnewyork7765]

Bob Pettit said Hutchins guarded him the best early in his career

[@lukecash3500]

Okay even I didn't know some of this stuff about the blocked shot data before it was officially tracked. It was extremely interesting and I would really like to know your sources there, e.g. when you're saying averages over 24 games, etc. In general this video was the shit, dude.

[@williegordon9188]

Those guys looked so unathletic.

[@williegordon9188]

Today if a guy gets 2 blocked shots a game he's called a great shot blocker. Russell and Wilt was averaging 14 to 15 blocked shots a game.

[@williegordon9188]

Elmore Smith had 17 blocked shots in a game in 1973 for the Lakers.

[@toddstevens13]

@@williegordon9188 And yet, that era has the most HOF, players, AND both the most Top 50 and then Top 75 NBA all time players from that era. Guess looks were deceiving, or it could be the way the games were covered, and awful, in comparison to today's, ability to show game action speed etc.

[@wvu05]

Several teams kept stats on blocked shots, but they were never officially kept by the NBA. I've heard that had blocks and steals been an official stat when he played that Wilt would have had two quintuple double games, including one with straight up video game stats (something like 53 points and 20 rebounds to lead the line).

[@sym_riot1276]

Nah 14 blocks a game is crazy

[@greggibson33]

Why is a rebound considered a part of defense? Isn't the definition of defense "resistance or protection to an attack." How is a rebound "resistance to an attack? A rebound is an action AFTER the defense has already been executed.

[@krisharkleroad8]

Doesn't that protect an attack? They no longer have the ball. No second chances, or third chances, etc.

[@prescriptionexercise3899]

@@krisharkleroad8 You just answered your own question. A defensive rebound PREVENTS the offensive team from obtaining another shot opportunity. A defensive rebound takes a possession AWAY from the offensive team. To get defensive rebounds, one must box out the offensive player with good positioning and lower body strength. To get defensive rebounds, one must have great timing and anticipation. All of this equates to solid DEFENSE.

[@krisharkleroad8]

@@prescriptionexercise3899 NSS.

[@UBboxing]

A defensive rebound is called a defesnive rebound because it keeps the opponent from getting the ball. Thats a good defensive strategy

[@senseichess8688]

Dave cowens and Willis reed were rugged defenders too...don buse pronounced his name boo see

[@loydkline]

Willis reed passed away

[@iamthegreatcornholio7836]

why isn't there and offensive poy?

[@iamthegreatcornholio7836]

an

[@nicolasrubiorodriguez2173]

Thanks!!!

[@JC-po5zy]

6’11 270 Walt Bellamy, 6’9 250 Willis reed, 6’11 275 Nate Thurmond, 6’9 235 zelmo Beaty. 6’8 250 Wayne embry etc bill and wilt did NOT PLAY PLUMBERS 🤦🏾shit is mad disrespectful and just not tru

[@loydkline]

Wilt played against Tom boerwinkle 7 foot big man ; Wes unsel:: Jerry Lucas etc etc ; today they got low 📫 post video; basketball shooting videos:: dribbling etc etc videos on everything

[@kevinlawrence8580]

Earl Lloyd was not the first black player in the NBA. It was Chuck Cooper of the Boston Celtics and Nat "Sweetwater" Clifton of the New York Knicks.

[@LizardMan78]

fire

[@sebastianquintero1158]

I feel like Cowens deserves that one more than Kareem after all the lakers ended with a 40-42 record and the 13th best defense

[@smokeyjoe795]

Jabbar averaged over 4 blocks a game not to mention how many he altered or scared guys from taking. Jabbar also still holds the record for defensive rebounds in a single season. Kareem earned it clear cut. Cowens idea of defense quite often was fouling the crap of people he had no business guarding. He got away with enough let's not give him a trophy for it.

[@sebastianquintero1158]

@@smokeyjoe795 k

[@kingofnewyork7765]

Defensive fouls could also mean you’re trying brother otherwise great video

[@senseichess8688]

Russell is the greatest defender ever...

[@davidkacinec7620]

Your crazy giving it to Russell for all those years. Chamberlin had more block and rebounds than Russell. Never seen Russel get his hand up over 13 feet in the air to block a shot. Chamberlin did that routinely. Please I watched them both play and Chamberlin was better. Russell had a better supporting cast to help him out.

[@bridgepaul112]

Why League MVP award introduce First in 1956 season? , DPoY Defensive Player must award first since 1951 same year NBA All Star ang ASMVP must. Why is the Season MVP late?

[@greggibson33]

Perfect example of why sports awards are meaningless (they only count to the player if it's an incentive in their contract.) I don't need a group of people to tell me Russell or Chamberlain or Walton were insanely good defensive players.... I already know.

[@JohnnyRodgers3]

Mikan was not known for being slow and lumbering lol

[@kingofnewyork7765]

Aaron bridges yes he was. Have you seen his footage?

[@JohnnyRodgers3]

@@kingofnewyork7765 yes...he was credited for having the speed of a light weight: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJqrapiaaZ2YaLc kzbin.info/www/bejne/m2HIi5h7jbiihKM

[@kingofnewyork7765]

@@JohnnyRodgers3 kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHSclXWYaqqlh5Y lol

[@kingofnewyork7765]

@@JohnnyRodgers3 Mikan couldn’t run very fast, he didn’t have too, Mikan couldn’t jump very high .. he didn’t need too. - Leonard Koppet

[@JohnnyRodgers3]

@@kingofnewyork7765 neither could bird

[@krisharkleroad8]

Jerry West? Hello. He stole the ball all the time and used to slide down and block forwards turn-around-jumpers from behind. He was better than Sloan.

[@UBboxing]

Steals weren't tracked till his very last season and his defensive win shares ere very low around 30-40th in the entire league. Although he was a great defender, the video was made mostly on stats and west didn't really have enough to show his capablility. There were many good guard at the time defensively but there wasn't any data to really show how some guards were good defensively

[@senseichess8688]

Bobby Jones never played a ton of minutes because of diabetes...great player

[@thesolutiondude793]

This was bs.. Wilt should've won more but of course like everyone else u uplifted someone else to downplay him! Bill won for 10yrs straight, c'mon bruh! That's amazing but Wilt still could've stolen 2 or 3 in between some of them!

[@73Trident]

How?

[@MovieGuy666]

Wilt was a better ball thief, shotblocker and rebounder.

[@MovieGuy666]

Dude Wilt is winning at least 5... you don't know what you're even talking a]bout.

[@problyzuited9828]

wilt made 1 more 1st team all defense than bill russle.. just saying

[@KenshiroBoss]

So bias, no Lebron pick smh 🤦🏾

[@mja91352]

Speculative history, the pastime of idle small minds ...

[@prescriptionexercise3899]

But yet here are you are watching the same video they are, and commenting no less. It is apparent that you are not creating new medicinal cures in your pastime.