What if the poor are lying to me? Called to give anyway? | Fr. Bonaventure & Fr. Gregory Pine

What if the poor are lying to me? Called to give anyway? | Fr. Bonaventure & Fr. Gregory Pine

[@lisapurplehayes]

If anyone is not honest, rich or poor, we need to be intelligent with resources. It is better to ensure our resources are going to honest people for good things.

[@StVibianaGA]

We must realize that in our age the poor need the Gospel preached to them above everything else. "Pray ye therefore the Lord...that he send forth labourers into his harvest." (Matt 9:38)

[@marvalice3455]

Yes, but they are also inoculated against the gospel. We need to show we love them spiritually _and_ physically.

[@ModernDalai]

Gospel preached? What about you stay on the street for a few days - sleepless and no stability and no food… What do you want others to do ?

[@marvalice3455]

@@ModernDalai this is why the evangelical councils are so important

[@StVibianaGA]

​@@marvalice3455 what in the world

[@StVibianaGA]

@@ModernDalai I don't know about your views, but in the Catholic tradition we realize that we need to give both alms and meaning into the hands of the poor, but many have forgotten the meaning part of it (including the mendicant orders of which these friars are a part of). Many of the poor today are enslaved to their poverty (often through addiction) because they no longer see themselves as worthwhile enough to get help. The gospel shows us our potential in the eyes of God.

[@willgd]

I think it's possible to over-give, especially to liars. I gave to a woman once who I absolutely knew was lying to me (I even said to her "I don't believe you, but I want to help you anyway") but it filled me with resentment for weeks. I probably should have just given her less than she asked, as it was a lot for me and my wife

[@MrGoodwell]

Thanks for your comments, Fathers. This is something I've struggled with.

[@deeswearingen5778]

I've always had people call me stupid for giving money to the poor on the streets. They said these poor people would just go out and buy beer. My answer was that once I gave them the money what they did with it was between GOD and them, it's none of my business.

[@Matt_Dalton]

^^yeah!

[@Strill_]

That is reckless and cruel. You don't actually care what happens to them, only about your own supposed purity. What they do IS your responsibility, because you are called to love them. Cain asked "Am I my brother's keeper?" and the correct answer was "YES!". Saying they can go overdose and die in a ditch with the money you gave them is not loving them at all. A father who loves his child doesn't feed the child's addiction. You're no different from the pharisees who cared about technicalities and appearances rather than actually loving God.

[@deeswearingen5778]

@@Strill_ I really don't think that the $5.00 I gave them would result in an overdose. If your preaching is your reason for not giving to anyone then that is between you and GOD. I am far from pure and when I give it's because of the urging of the Holy Spirit.

[@Strill_]

@@deeswearingen5778 $5 is another bottle of booze. That doesn't help. If you want to help them, without hurting them, give them food, or a food card.

[@Matt_Dalton]

@@Strill_ so are you hiring a private investigator to make sure the charity you donate to is handling your money in a responsible way that doesn’t result in overdoses or bad things ever happening? I kinda bet not. You probably give them money and rest assured feeling like you did your part, even though there’s like a million opportunities somewhere along the line for something bad to happen. Giving someone cash isn’t the only way to help, but I think it’s a good way of acknowledging someone’s humanity and not infantilizing them.

[@anthonyfowler2623]

God will deal with those who are doing wrong

[@lisapurplehayes]

That’s our responsibility. Passing the buck onto God isn’t the right way. The right thing is for us to manage what we can.

[@PockASqueeno]

“It’s the state’s job.” NO NO NO NO NO. Also, did I mention NO? The state’s job is to protect our rights and prevent crime. It is NOT the state’s job to be charitable. This is the job of the CHURCH. The church is supposed to be charitable. Not the state. If we Christians were more charitable and generous, the state would not need to tax us as much for welfare that largely doesn’t work. “Give everything to the government, and they’ll give to the poor so that you don’t have to.” - said Jesus, never

[@Matt_Dalton]

how is it not the state's job to support its people? You said "the state's job is to protect our rights and prevent crime." Do you not consider it a human right to have shelter, food and healthcare? We don't need the church to tell us to do that. Taking care of each other in society is an idea older than christianity.

[@marvalice3455]

​​@@Matt_Dalton I agree that OPs position is inconsistent, but my conclusion is the opposite of yours. It's not that the poor have no right to those things, but rather that "protecting rights" is actually not the job of the government at all. The job of the government is upholding justice, especially certain types of justice. Protecting the rights of others is actually the job of the local community. Not the state. The state is utterly and pathetically unequipped to defend the rights of the individual, due to the very nature of the state itself

[@Matt_Dalton]

@@marvalice3455 I agree with you that local community is vitally important, but to say that larger branches of government aren’t important to protecting each other too doesn’t seem right. Laws and fear of reprisal are sometimes the only things keeping people in a smaller community from doing something awful like committing violent hate crimes or discriminating based on gender/race/sexuality.

[@marvalice3455]

​@@Matt_Daltonthey are important for protecting us, and the means which is proper to the state for protecting us is through the exercise of certain types of justice, not through manufacturing rights which it attempts to give people.

[@Matt_Dalton]

@@marvalice3455 that makes no sense though. The state can’t just blindly deal out justice, it needs to have guidelines, and those guidelines are provided by the people. So, partially by the local community. They work in tandem with one another. So the state does actually take care of people. Imperfectly? Absolutely.

[@toasterofdoom9629]

If God doesn't have emotions then is Jesus not God? Jesus had emotions, presumably Jesus still has emotions.

[@josegarcia-qf8rj]

God doesn’t have emotions? That confused me. Can someone please explain.

[@JacksonC-8000]

God is pure Love and pure spirit. In order for us to understand our relationship to him we'll anthropomorphize Him because we are human, not pure Love or pure spirit For example when God is angry or seeking justice, sad, or even confused like when Adam is hiding from Him in the garden. God who created the world couldn't lose track of Adam because he's hiding in a bush. So while we will describe him as happy or sad or angry it's more so a reflection of our actions and whether or not they are in line with what God wishes for us.

[@chuckmartel1874]

Psychologists consider emotions to be nervous system phenomena, designed to keep us alive. Fear, lust, grief, anger, cruelty, etc. Number one being Fear. Its important to realize that most of our everyday emotions, what people think of as emotions, are caused by our mortal limitations. I don't agree that God is emotionless, but rather his emotions are devoid of fear or any other scarcity-fueled emotion. They are perfect, as He is. I don't worship a passion-less God, I worship a God of perfect passion.

[@marvalice3455]

God has things which are like emotions and which can be understood using emotions as a metaphor. But strictly speaking the sorts of emotions we have a re not applicable to God because he doesn't change. And we experience emotions as changes in our senses.

[@marvalice3455]

​@@chuckmartel1874 you are allowed to have bad philosophy if you like

[@Matt_Dalton]

I don't blame you, it doesn't really make sense. Especially when the bible indicates the complete opposite, as do countless spiritual leaders throughout history.

[@Matt_Dalton]

saying god doesn't have emotions is quite a statement. That has all kinds of implications for talking about god's "love" and "mercy", seemingly rendering those terms meaningless or in need of complete redefinition. In respect to the original question, what if the poor are lying to me: couldn't that have been answered in a much simpler way? "If you've got the money to do it, then do it." I don't feel like this is a helpful dialogue.

[@codywork-us7wu]

Love and Mercy arent emotions they are actions.

[@Matt_Dalton]

@@codywork-us7wu motivated entirely by emotion.

[@marvalice3455]

This is a complex topic which has to do with the very nature of God himself. The tldr is that our emotions are an image of a much higher truth which exists in God, but do to the difference in our nature it is wrong to assume they are the same. Much more can be said on this, but the medium is a limitation. As for the poor lying to us, that is between them and God. You don't have nearly as much influence over how much good your apms can do as you believe. We are all called to give alms, we are not called to force those who receive them to be the most worthy of them. You will be judged according to whether or not you gave to them. They will be judged according to whether or not they squandered the gift God used you to give them.

[@Matt_Dalton]

@@marvalice3455 is the medium a limitation, or is it just impossible to talk about because it doesn’t actually make any sense.

[@alexanderthegoat]

"Jesus wept."

[@Lcoreyful]

If someone is addicted to drugs or alcohol, youre not helping them by giving them money. And you are encouraging more people to beg. Ive given out food, and ive given to charities. If you want to help, give to a local charity on a regular basis. Then you dont have to wait for someone to make you feel too good about yourself giving money, or bad about yourself by not giving money. Gift cards to fast food would be another good idea.

[@marvalice3455]

You are not responsible for the sins of others if you are being decieved by them

[@krdiaz8026]

@@marvalice3455 If you didn't know, then yes, you're not responsible. If you already know, then no, you're partly responsible. You don't give someone a drink if you know they are an alcoholic.

[@Matt_Dalton]

all you're doing by donating to a charity instead of just giving someone a couple bucks is kicking the stone down the road. If someone is addicted to something, and they're not ready to quit, they're gonna do it no matter what. Will your couple bucks you give them result in them overdosing? Sure, maybe. Or that just might be their only income and they're just gonna use it in the same way most of us use money; that is to say, randomly and without morality measurement. If I was still an addict I would just sell your $5 McDonald's gift card to someone for $3, and then boom, you just gave me $3. People struggle enough. Either cough up the cash or don't.

[@marvalice3455]

​@@krdiaz8026 We are called to give to the poor. Not to manufacture a middle class out of the poor. When you give alms, you are the tool God is using to give a gift to one of his children. Whether they squander that gift or not is on them. Your logic assumes you have far more power over people outside your sphere of influence than you actually do.

[@krdiaz8026]

@@marvalice3455 You assume that helping the poor can only be through giving money. You can give food instead, which is what I usually do. I live in Manila, Philippines, and most of the street kids here are addicted to contact cement (a type of glue) which they sniff to get high. They use the alms they receive to buy it. I know this for a fact. I've seen it with my own eyes. It is better to give food than money. In fact, this is also what the government says to us: Don't give money. Give food. Or else give to the NGOs who help take care of these kids. I also belong to a parish with many poor families, and we give them food, not money, because what usually happens is the mom will receive the money, and the dad forcefully takes it from her to buy alcohol. He can't use a bag of vegetables to buy alcohol. So, is what we are doing illogical or not?

[@guyfromnj]

I don’t believe God doesn’t have emotions. Why would he do anything for anyone? Love is a emotion. God is love. So idk what you two are talking about.

[@marvalice3455]

Love is not an emotion. Not in this context at least. They are using "emotion" as an equivalent term for the passions. The passions are purely physical. They are of the body, and you feel them in your soul only in that your soul reflects your body. Love is not a passion, because love is of the soul. Specifically the will. There is a passion known as "affection", and this passion overlaps with live in many ways, but it is not identical to love. God is higher than us, not lower. When we say he doesn't have emotions, this is because emotions as we experience them limit us in ways that are inappropriate to God. God has something greater than emotions

[@guyfromnj]

@@marvalice3455 it’s kind of a semantics game. I hear what you are saying and agree that God is above us for sure. But, I think God has emotions. He may not have emotions like us. But he has emotions. He was moved to create us because he wants a relationship with us. If you didn’t have emotions why would you do that?

[@guyfromnj]

I’m not trying to argue I’m trying to understand so please explain your position

[@Matt_Dalton]

It doesn’t make sense. I’ve found that Catholics really like to over-complicate things, especially abstract concepts that are already difficult to talk about. Doesn’t even seem ill-intentioned, just like generationally learned behavior or something. If you just spoke for 3 minutes on a relatively simple topic and people are confused, you are either very bad at explaining yourself or you’re up to something.

[@marvalice3455]

@@guyfromnj this _is_ semantics. And that's not something that can be dismissed. The friars mean something very specific by emotions. I understand that word games are frustrating, but this is the cost of having a short clip. Questions about the nature of God are inherently going to be complicated to explain.