What If Vince Never Took Down The NWA Territories

[@Backpackfiles]

Great one, Dave, as a "Late Territories Kid" born in '71, I feel this definitely spells out how the industry changed so radically in the early 80s.

[@MrBeardsley]

I think if not for Vince McMahon, the territories would’ve died out anyway because of cable TV and the internet. It might’ve taken another 10-20 years and pro wrestling might have never achieved true mainstream pop culture success, but it was inevitable in a world where keeping kayfabe is impossible and you can’t rely on the fans in Atlanta not knowing what happened in New York or vice-versa.

[@Sargebri]

The thing about World Class was that even though they wanted to be a national promotion Fritz still held to the old belief in not crossing into other territories. In fact, Gary Hart, who was the booker for World Class, said that he tried to get Fritz to promote shows outside of the Dallas area. However, Fritz was old school and even though Watts and Crockett would frequently promote shows in Dallas Fritz would never go into Oklahoma or the Carolinas.

[@sionrouge1697]

The NWA was imploding. Crockett dominated the NWA title due to its Turner tv exposure.

[@luisrizo8813]

Blackjack Lanza says it point blank in the 2006 AWA dvd documentary that if it wasn't Vince, it would have been someone because of cable television's ascendence in the 1980s.

[@tylerleggett5088]

I live in Michigan where there's more than 30 promotions that run their cities almost monthly. I wasn't around during the territory days, but it seems like we're running a microcosm of the model where Indy wrestling is currently thriving

[@oliverl.5834]

With Watts one would have to consider the reasons for the UWF going out of business. This apparently had to do with the oil market breaking away in the company's home base and his national footing not yet being strong enough. If that were to happen in the alternate universe as well, for Watts to be the one going national successfully, he probably would have had to have it done by 1984 latest. That would give him 2 to 3 years to establish his company outside the Mid-South-Territory, thus being able to compensate the home market more or less breaking away. Great video, Dave.

[@eastsidereviews727]

It's interesting and kind of impossible to imagine Vince K. not ever being in wrestling because of the gigantic influence he has had on the industry. One of my other favorite KZbin Channels, Alternate History Hub, did a video about What If the Roman Empire didn't exist and it was such a hard concept to imagine because of what the Roman Empire did for not just European, but world history. I know I am being a little hyperbolic to compare silly wrestling to world history, but its the way I feel about Vince never getting into the business; just something that's difficult because of his direct impact on wrestling. Like others have said, someone was going to go national with the expansion of cable tv and the decisions by the NWA were always going to lead to it eventually dying off.

[@BeyondDaX]

True, I would have considered either Verne or Jerry Lawlers' promotion to be the ones to try out Cable first. Maybe Watts on a good day.

[@Figs3]

The thing that bothers me the most is the promise Vince Sr. made. That they wouldn't take over the territories while he's alive. Vince K. probably waited a day until he started planning if that.

[@JDjade1]

I think the territories could've survived the first few years of cable television. Those first few years, even with cable, each region only had so many channels, and with the exceptions of TBS and WGN, you weren't getting channels from other regions. It wasn't until Satellite networks like Xfinity where we started seeing 900+ channels and the like. I don't think the territories, and kayfabe, was ever going to survive the Internet once the Web starting coming into its own. Early 2000s, thats when the territories couldve survived until.

[@scotness]

I became a wrestling fan because of UHF channels. I was able to see AWA, and everything else since it was a way to get stuff on TV for cheap. Yes, we had a week delay, but boy was it worth it.

[@MadcapMachinations]

A week delay definitely isn't that bad

[@Adam-kn3tv]

It's right there in the name... DAVE KNOWS. Mad props to the most acedemic and analytical pro wrestling UTBer. He's got a gift for highlighting the overlooked but essential historically documented facts. Never deviates from the record, but somehow always provides totally novel insight to these angles which are either, tragically, under- or over-exposed.

[@MangyStray]

Great video Dave , love the "what if " ponderings, i wish the AWA could have had a successful national presence, but i think they would have needed more flash in their product to appeal to a national audience (even if i would prefer it just as it was)

[@BeyondDaX]

That and considering how stubborn Verne is to change. I don't see them last that long past the mid 90s

[@bentonmckinney5454]

The NWA also had affiliated promotions with Japan Australia New Zealand 2 Canadian provinces and Mexico

[@ready7248]

Personally I think the internet would have eventually killed the territory system. And if it didn't destroy it, people would just be able to access everything from all over.

[@BeyondDaX]

It wouldn't have killed it but those territories would have degraded their popularity to that of the small indie places, it'll end up as a niche product because there are more options for people regarding entertainment.

[@ImmortalRimas]

Great video and interesting to see what could have been. I wonder also considering Ted Turner’s passion for Wrestling wound he have still founded WCW?

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I did think about that but a lot that was spite for Black Saturday but maybe. I almost included that here

[@joelestrada3790]

Most underrated wrestling channel on KZbin, Dave knows what I’m talking about

[@rayhoyer4829]

Entertaining as always Dave.

[@ryankeefe2102]

Cable tv was always going to eventually kill the territories Vince was just smart enough to see it coming wheres the other promoters A.) Didnt think anything would ever change or B.) Weren't going to accept the change

[@martymcfly6015]

Yes and no certain territories had cable distribution and pay per views ala Starcade, Clash of Champions etc valid point tho💯

[@Adam-kn3tv]

Right. AND: For the fans, it would have, unequivocally, been better if the territories had survived. Vince is a stand-in for every other ruthless promoter ever, it could have been any other of them. And they all wish they'd done what he did. And we would've despised them, rightfully so.

[@TheOrigionalRedMask]

Please look at the videos of Ron Fuller as he had a chance at a National promotion. I believe NBC had approached Fuller to put Continental Championship Wrestling on National TV. He turned them down. What if he hadn’t turned down NBC?

[@SheriffOutlaw]

Ooh! I love What If Stories! King Dave is the Man! Like Always He Know Wrestling! ❤

[@sadetwizelve]

Someone else would’ve done it,it was inevitable.

[@saint-g7449]

You beat to this type of reply. 😂

[@michaelrose3101]

Don't think so, and needed truck loads of money, Vince would of been screwed if Wrestlemania 1 didn't bear fruit. So many things need to go your way.

[@sadetwizelve]

@michaelrose3101 vince didn't have truck loads of money,he did it one by one and it took years. It happened with nfl,nba...record companies...movie studios.. food/beverage...I don't know why you'd think pro wrestling wouldn't eventually monopolize.

[@michaelrose3101]

​@sadetwizelve l have only looked at headline without even watching yet l am eluding to who else was involved in wrestling in the time frame, and nobody would of pulled it off, without outside wrestling people pouring in revenue. I am looking from the point of what if Wrestlemania failed, Vince was left with nothing.

[@pizzaman8918]

@@sadetwizelve absolutely. It wasn’t “If the territories fall,” but “WHEN the territories fall.” imo the NWA wouldn’t have survived the decade probably because of either the AWA, Jim Crockett, or even Ted Turner

[@mringram]

Good stuff

[@drummerconverse]

I’ve heard Michael Hayes says David always pushed Fritz to get on cable. Lot of the WCCW guys say David would’ve done what Vince did had he lived.

[@mrmoose6619]

Cable would have done in regional/territorial wrestling with or without VKM... he was the first to see, understand, gamble, and win on cable.

[@lanternsown3525]

Bill and Verne become the Mega Powers and take down the NWA tag team style Brother! Oh Yeeeeaaaahhh!

[@TheCrazyNeighbor]

Bill Watts and Verne Gagne vs Silo Sam and Buddy Rodgers

[@chrismemphis8062]

AWA had a huge territoy and was making $$ and knew how to create stars. NWA territory was very real (and my fav), but didn't have the cartoony 'stars' and the wrestlers worked way more and made less. Verne would have gone nationwide but got beat by VKM.

[@taureanthecreator3005]

Interesting video. Love every scenario you laid out. The only thing I disagree with is seeing Vern and the AWA being the ones to take down the territories because Vern wrestling vision was archaic at best and when he had Hogan who was hotter than the sun at the time he could never get with the times. The best choice in your video could have been Jim Barnett. He had the connections and he was just as cunning and ruthless as Vince. Can you do a video on who if Jim Crockett never expanded past the Mississippi River. Thanks keep up the good work

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

That's fair enough and I did consider that. But my thinking was that Hogan had nowhere else to go as VJM fired him and I don't think the NWA would have taken him and if they did, I doubt they would have put him over Flair. I think Hulkamania, while super hot due to Rocky III, wouldn't be Hulkamania if it weren't for VKM. And Verne's expansion, even if he was outdated, was still working to a degree. And that's with VKM competing. If anything I think the real threat to AWA's success would have been Greg

[@taureanthecreator3005]

@@DaveKnowsWrestling Interesting you are right I made an oversight about Greg.

[@hollywoodtre6098]

Really good video

[@Harperd5]

I would love to hear Jim Cornette's opinion on this since he's a great historian of territory wrestling

[@geoffchurchill5492]

I think Ted Turner would be the key, it was buying a slot on his network that started Mcmahon's expansion, so maybe his allegiance toM

[@jamesearlcash1758]

Dave, who do you think would have purchased WWF if Sr. didn't sell it to his kid considering he was looking to sell the company at the time?

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I was thinking about that exact topic today for potentially another video. So I'm gonna save my answer in case I do it. Real good question

[@wisepine1]

its well established it would have been to gorilla monsoon

[@TSOTGPodcast]

Yeah…I pretty much think that Vince was just ahead of the curve when it comes to expansion on a national level. If it wasn’t him, it would’ve been someone else…most likely AWA and Verne Gagne. Especially if he had the foresight to keep Hogan and maximize on the whole “Hulkamania” movement like Vince did.

[@rogregg29445]

I think personally that Jim Barnett and Crockett probably would’ve teamed up at somepoint had Vince not come along and mid Atlantic still becomes wcw Ted maybe doesn’t own it though as black Saturday doesn’t happen

[@attiepollard7847]

There's an old saying if one person doesn't do it the other one will

[@korywilliamsO.G.1]

Another banger, Dave. Do you think that the territories could've survived with cable television IF the promoters still followed the rule of NOT running a show in someone else's territory? Remember in the beginning that VKM couldn't draw bath water in the South when he first expanded.

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I mean that's a big if but again no because for the last reason I mentioned in the video

[@coryshannon3815]

In a way, it's kind of fitting Gagne would have a falling out with the NWA, since Gagne made his name early on wrestling in Chicago, while the NWA was centered in St. Louis. It's like the Chicago-St. Louis sports rivalry even bled over into the predetermined nature of pro wrestling.

[@ryanvannice7878]

So is there really any local programming outside of local news? There are maybe 2 or 3 local programs where I live. In the same way, I just don't see why the territory system would have existed through the mid 90s had Vince not done what he did. In addition the territories relied on controlling information; the internet just makes control much harder.

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I mean, that's what I think too

[@yadielenielbellecolon982]

Thank For the What if Video 🙊🤯🥰😍😁💗💐🌟🥇🏆

[@Charlie-Cat.]

Hi Dave, I have another idea for an upload that I check recently on your channel, but hasn't been done so far.... Would you be interested on uploading a dedicated video on the 1991 pay-per-view, "This Tuesday in Texas". It was an experimental PPV event that turn out to be a disappointment across the board for the WWF/E at the time with mixed wrestling action results. Would be fun to listen in on what you have to say. 8^)

[@johnpittsii7524]

Good topic ❤

[@ZOOTSUITBEATNICK1]

outstanding

[@stingrey1571]

Because of the nationwide reach of cable, someone would have gone national and killed the territories.

[@MildraTheMonkVT]

One other factor to consider is how this would affect the relationships with japanese promotions. Assuming, of course, that the way All Japan and New Japan get formed still happens. IIRC, AJPW had a working relationship with the NWA....suppose that NJPW strikes a deal with the AWA? I'm just spitballing, of course, but it's important to note that the ripple effect extends past North America.

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

That is a fair point. With WWFs connection to NJPW they probably would have teamed up with someone in this alternate reality

[@MildraTheMonkVT]

@@DaveKnowsWrestling And AJPW would have followed suit, even if it's the NWA still.

[@johnstahlman9767]

I agree with there being a national promotion was inevitable especially since Joe Blanchard also had national TV, prior to Vince McMahon, however Blanchard's TV show was really bad. Also Pedro Martinez tried starting a national promotion with the IWA, but the NWA aggressively stomped them out and won a anti-trust lawsuit filed against them by the IWA. So someone was going to go national, since there were already attempts. Now that being said, I honestly picture the NWA (more specifically Crockett) to be the one to do it. With many of the territories going under due to other circumstances besides Vince's expansion, I feel Crockett would do what he was doing and buy up as many struggling territories as he could where he would pretty much make the NWA into a single promotion as opposed to a governing body. Then again though Crockett did make some very poor financial choices himself.

[@JayReaction530]

And remember LA broke away from the NWA from 1961 to 1968 with WWA and they were the first company to do close circuit in 1971 with Blassie vs Tolos

[@iamtriston666]

In my opinion, if McMahon didn't buy WWE from his dad. The Territories would've had one more decade. I think by the mid 90's would mark the ending.

[@EricToro-ef4hr]

i think that some of the promotions would have died out and some would have succeeded. if it weren't for Vince McMahon. i still think Vince McMahon destroyed pro wrestling. out of greed and had no interest in rassling. like he called wrestling he was a jerk .

[@jasoncordray4957]

I think, going by ur video, it would have come down to bill watts mid south and gange AWA. I would place my money on watts giving that Verne was set in the athletic side of it more than the entertainment side, Watts might have evolved better.

[@Revcharge]

i think Vince Jr would have been involved in football if not wrestling. that's why XFL revival didn't surprise me.

[@jasonnaugle1600]

Here's a question for you Dave. Do you think "Black Saturday," when Vince took over TBS, do you think that was a major contributor for the NWA territories being gone?

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I mean Vince buying GCW was a pivotal acquisition. I don't think the TV show itself was a factor as he already bought it

[@dominicalberto2179]

Interesting question. I think they would have lasted longer.

[@haljordan777]

1:55 Or maybe in this scenario, VKM became a wrestler like he originally wanted to (VJM wouldn't allow it). Then he either has no interest in the business side of wrestling or perhaps concussions suffered in the ring prevent him from taking over his father's company.

[@anthonyjordanmoviesandmore2470]

Honestly if he never took down the territories the state of wrestling would be much better today

[@BigKat96]

I think after cable/internet there would still be territories just probably different companies working with different outlines, because just like back in the day different areas like different styles of wrestling so you would probably have a few spoke promotions feeding into a main hub promotion (like WWE and OVW/FCW) that would work areas where their style did best but since it would be the spoke promotions working the more outer reaches of the territory the lines probably wouldnt be as set in stone as they use to be the main protected area would be the main promotions home turf and schedule. It's a lot of detail to try to put into text in a comment section to make a complete sense of what I'm trying to say

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

What exactly do you think the territory system is?

[@Figs3]

I feel like All Japan would have been bigger since it was part of the NWA, and maybe been able to spread out their influence.

[@KylePrime_1986]

I think Verne Gagne might have gone national

[@kakekikoku9492]

Verne Mcmahon

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I do think he's the more likely candidate myself

[@attiepollard7847]

​@@DaveKnowsWrestlingyeah but how far? Because even with the CBS deal he was planning to get I don't think that company would have broadcast wrestling that long

[@dr.dragon8322]

Nah the territory system would’ve died but I do believe we would have 3-4 nationally viewed wrestling promos all existing/competing like a world where WCW, AEW, and something no where near the size of WWE all exist maybe they even stay like that. Maybe. But comparing how other industries evolve most seem to push to oligopolies or monopolies so that’s my guess.

[@cra0422]

The territory system was doomed by cable television. It wasn't a question of if, but rather when and by whom. Vince was just in the best position because he controlled the New York territory and thus it's media market.

[@TheJoec2005]

If it wasn't Vince it would have been someone else

[@TheImapotato]

Ok...with Verne, he was not going to change his style, even his son Greg pestering him didn't have him budge, so he is out. Bill Watts, he was probably the main guy who could, BUT the oil crisis still would have happened and that was right before the cable boom, and just like in real life, he would have relied on live show sales to fund national expansion and would have failed. Jim Crockett? Didn't have the business sense, he had the opportunity in his hands and squandered money on jet flying, limo riding and moving his offices away from his loyal fans. Add in the absurd paying Watts when he could have just waited for him to go out of business and then not even using the talent he purchased, he was doomed. That leaves, Jim Barnett, my boy. Barnett had the best chance w/o Vince Jr and I think he would have grabbed Florida w/o the betrayal of the Briscoes, giving him a nice Southeastern coup. His existence might have made Crockett Jr balk at buying out Mid South, allowing Barnett to grab that area as well. He might have even named his National promotion World Championship Wrestling since he had that name in his 1970s Australian promotion With Barnett, I think WCCW and CWA merger might have still happened and that would have meant 4 major promotions in the U.S. (WWF,MACW,Georgia & CWA) which would have been great to see more talent prosper

[@michaelfalkner1186]

Then HE fails. One of the bugs in the system for the WWF at the time was that they never drew well to start with in another territory's ... territory... until Vince had gutted the place.

[@canadianjoe-jr2dk]

I would be happy

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I doubt it

[@allencollins5666]

@@canadianjoe-jr2dkHa. Ha. 😃🤛

[@michaelwebb9972]

Sir, I love your wisdom on this brother. Let's play a card here. It's the Indiana Jones, Star Wars story told in pro wrestling. Those other promoters would have done just what they did....... NOTHING. If VKM did NOT step up, I TRULY believe NOTHING would have changed and status quo would have remained. Thank you for your time.

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here

[@michaelwebb9972]

@@DaveKnowsWrestling I am so sorry for that. Those promoters were comfortable running their product. What I am saying is if Vince didn't snatch up and reap the stars of those places, NORTHING would have changed.

[@mattmuller3756]

Crockett may of emerged as head of a Nat. NWA. Which put on super. shows in different parts of the country. Run Starrcade as your Wrest. Mania of your promotion. Had territories that were profitting to run in there area. An send in stars for a big show. Run a few more touring champions. Say tag team, Women's, 6 man and tv poss? Run a huge PPV or super show with each territory that is made sense with. Say around 82' Mid South, WCCW, and Georgia Champ. Wrest. There is your big 4 mega shows. Run a major show or series with FCW, CWA, Port., and run some shows to keep Race and the midwest running if you can. You may of had a big 3 of NWA, AWA, and New York. For even if they don't go nat. they have the Gardens and the media mecca. Think if that happened you may of run some territories if you made them upgrade with the times there tv or force them out. WCCW had good tv and they may teach other territories how to upgrade or your out by a certain date. Think the system may end much the same in the very end game. But a few may survive much more than what did go down. With a strong NWA board and group of owners and a Crockett working as a team you may of had a big power having Ric an Race. Having the Von Erichs and Funks. The Briscoes if they don't go Nation with Vince. If Vince don't go Nation much of the stars and workers are in the territory system if run right for a time. What you think Ric defending vs Kerry in the big D, Terry Funk anywhere in Texas or a ton of states in the south. Junk Yard Dog in his prime in the deep south, Ted Dibise and Piper get shots in there home bases. Great tag team division and you may add in a womens division and push womens managers and music. Think that may of been fun?

[@allencollins5666]

Uh Huh.

[@DeMan59]

If he hadn’t done it someone else would.

[@Officer_Goodman]

Then we would've gotten Mr Gagne instead of Mr McMahon

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I will take Shane all day over Greg

[@Officer_Goodman]

@@DaveKnowsWrestling same, Gregory Gag sucks

[@Officer_Goodman]

@@DaveKnowsWrestling yeah, me too

[@allencollins5666]

Hulk Hogan Would’ve Never Mainstream Made The WWE. Imagine Ted Turner & AWA Having An Alliance like WWE & ECW

[@robertdoran2976]

wait organized crime ? So mafia owns wrestling?

[@writingjake6684]

What if dean ambrose never left wwe

[@JayReaction530]

LA coulda did it in the 60s i mean just like new york is new york LA is LA

[@danwojcik8306]

Yes. The Territories would still exist. Companies like WCCW, AWA, UWF and GCW would have stayed in business as Vince would not have drawn away all of the talent. WCCW was being rebroadcast outside of Texas. Eventually it was rebroadcast out of Chicago, which helped to distribute it throughout the MidWest. Companies like the AWA would have held onto Hulk Hogan, who would eventually have become a World Champion in the company. Please remember that Vince Sr, fired Hogan for acting in Rocky III. In the WWF, a young Larry Zbyszko would have probably become the World Champion having defeated the Iron Shiek. This would have then led to the Zbyszko vs Bruno Sammartino (Student vs Teacher) match, which would have drawn crazy numbers. As was evident when that match actually happened. The UWF would have become what TNA or to an extent AEW are today. A place for aging and young wrestlers to work together in order to sustain older stars, while helping to elevate younger talent. The one item that would have changed though, is that wrestlers would have needed to guard Kay-Fabe even more. Heels would have to remain as heels, unless there was a solid story to turn them face; and then carry that gimmick with them until it was time to make another turn.

[@kaioh187]

I think that if Vince McMahon did not go national I think he would have still had wrestling but instead of having a territory he would be a promoter like Paul Boesch in Houston. I could see Vince McMahon Jr. creating Pro Wrestling USA and it being very successful. Vince McMahon would probably more that likely become the main person in charge of the NWA one day and a lot of the non-traditional wrestling ideas never happen. I clearly remember Vince Mcmahon performing a ten bell salute to David Von Erich on the February 15, 1984 episode of All-Star Wrestling because I saw the episode right after I arrived back home after church that Sunday.

[@ensabahnur7657]

NWA#1 all time PERIOD! Unfortunately NWA/WCW self destructed & it started in 1995 the signs were CLEAR especially after the NWO Garbage died out!😂 I feel if they stuck to the most basic & important traditions along with the basic & important traditions set by the Clash Of Champions & Nitro which should've stayed at 2 hours & Thunder was garbage that couldn't be recycled! NWA started it all so there'd be no AWA or WWWF if not for them! I really liked the AWA & WWWF but when Son Vincent took over the WWF the whole Rock&Wrestling Cheesy Cartoonish Characters, etc truly was a slap in the face of traditional Pro Wrestling in my opinion & had barely paid attention for a longtime afterwards!

[@dustinsonnier5602]

😂😂😂

[@BeyondDaX]

@ensabahnur7657 It wouldn't have survive much longer once the internet came into being. Times were changing and kayfabe wouldn't be able to stick around for too long once more avaliable inside knowledge is accessible.

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I got news for you. The internet didnt ruin kayfabe. Everyone already knew.

[@BizzaroICCW]

Then Billy Corgan would have bought WWE and made Tyrus the WWE Champion

[@briannettles669]

If Vince McMahon did not take down the territories in the 1980s, it would have meant a massive wrestling developmental system would have remained in place. That would have meant a large number of developed young wrestling stars would have been available to the WWF, WCW/Crockett (whichever would have survived), the AWA, and any other ambitious wrestling territory in the 1990s. It would have led to higher cable television ratings and higher buy rates for PPVs because far more young and exciting wrestlers would have been available than there were in the mid-1990s. The biggest issue with taking out the territories was the complete lack of insight as to who was going to train and develop the next generation of wrestling stars since it was the territories that were doing all of the work in the 60s through the 80s. This issue was not solved until the late 1990s, when the WWF/WWE started to develop the likes of the Rock, Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Randy Orton, Batista, John Cena, etc.

[@DaveKnowsWrestling]

I do not follow your logic here. The Rock debuted in the mid 90s. He's not lumped into the same class as Brock and Batista etc. And you're saying PPV buyrates would have been better without the existence of Wrestlemania and the WWE ppv model?