What if Washington DC had GOOD commuter rail? - (Classy Whale One Line More Submission)

[@DanHominem]

I know my map has some inconsistencies/errors, see if you can find them all :3

[@couchsloucher797]

Toyed around with some fantasy maps of my own (fellow D.C. area resident) and I think that the Camden line presents a great opportunity if used properly. The problem is currently the Camden line has the better destination (Camden Station vs Penn) but the Penn line has the faster route. I propose a large expansion to the BWI rail station, connecting to the Camden line in two ways. One branch heads northwest north of the station and connects into the Camden line before St. Denis. The other connection with the Camden line does not interact with the Penn line, it stops overhead crossing the station and meets up with the Baltimore Light rail terminus at BWI. This does three really cool things all at once. First, a direct rail people mover service between the airport gates and the train station can run nonstop. Second, the Camden line can be turned into a light regional rail service (see: River Line or Oceanside Sprinter). This would require cooperation with csx but ideally the slower light rail service would be less encumbered by and annoying to the freight traffic. This service would go from Union Station to BWI’s light rail station and would perform like your Green line to BWI video portrays. The slower speed would be made up for by a new direct connection to BWI, infill stations close to the MD/D.C. border, and an increased frequency. Service would probably be hourly in both directions to start, ideally sub 20 min over time as new track upgrades are brought online. But the most interesting opportunity such an expansion affords is a new direct high speed connection between Camden Station and Union Station. This would become Maryland’s flagship service. An additional electrified track on the Camden line with a flyover to get from the west side to the east past the rail yard would make this possible. Such a service would be hourly between Camden and Union (~40 min journey + 20 min turnaround) stopping only at BWI and New Carrollton to connect to metro and light rail services. I really love the look of Caltrain’s new Stadler Kiss EMU’s, would be my preferred choice of new rolling stock if there was a higher speed variant. This line doesn’t need tilting, the express service, clock face schedule, and direct destinations make up for a few minutes lost. This would provide the best of both worlds, the convenience of Camden Station combined with the speed and frequency of the Penn Line. Maryland’s Acela! Camden line rolling stock can be sent over to beef up the Brunswick Line’s frequencies (when 270 hsr ???). VRE can do their own thing, they seem to have a plan. Fantastic video btw. Hope this makes sense, open to criticism!

[@RallyingforRail]

I visited the area last summer to see friends. And it amazed me just how mediocre MARC is. For the amount of sprawl, it should be so much better. Your proposals, if implemented, would help a lot.

[@Shortline819]

Actually, the ex-RF&P between Washington and Richmond is actually jointly-owned between CSX and Virginia. It's a strange situation where the State owns the right-of-way, CSX owns the existing two tracks and dispatches, while any additional tracks are owned by the State directly for AMTK and VRE. The idea is that you can mostly separate the freight and passenger trains on separate tracks. I've noticed when the Class Is negotiate with the State, it goes a lot better than if they negotiate with AMTK itself. No reason Maryland couldn't strike a similar deal with CSX, as Virginia did.

[@DanHominem]

Thats pretty interesting and explains how VRE appears to have actual improvements on the horizon

[@MrMarshmallow26]

The ultimate plan is to construct two mainline tracks between DC and Richmond, a track 3 and 4, owned by VPRA for passenger trains in order to fully separate passenger and freight. It would also allow VRE to have bidirectional service. This is being done through several smaller siding projects that will eventually link together, though this will take lots of time to complete. The Long Bridge project marks the beginning of this string of projects.

[@jec20721]

The RF&P has a lot more room along the right-of-way for expansion, whereas the two MARC lines are hemmed in. Also there's no way in the world that CSX sells the Metropolitan or Capitol subs to MD, since it's their critical route from the Port of Baltimore to the Midwest and is very busy.

[@Shortline819]

@jec20721 The RF&P is arguably more critical to CSX. It's apart of their Selkirk-to-Waycross mainline, which forms one of the legs of their triangle-shaped "core" network. The importance of this line is going to become even greater once the Howard Street Tunnel is cleared for double stacks. All of this was true for CSX back when they sold the RoW to Virginia in 2019.

[@MrMarshmallow26]

@@Shortline819 I had forgotten the Howard Street Tunnel. This project and the added traffic emphasize the importance of separating passenger and freight traffic on the already busy RF&P, else Amtrak will just get squeezed in by the host railroad. There's been some positive progress so far, such as the groundbreaking of the Long Bridge and completion of the Quantico third track and station redevelopment, and hopefully that momentum and progress can be somewhat maintained moving forward if not fully.

[@NikonF5user]

The Camden line is just downright depressing. I live in Columbia. We have the skeleton of a rail line that could have served a connection to both DC and Baltimore. But no. Maryland (which I love in most ways) SUCKS with regional rail and doesn't offer evening or weekend service near Columbia (with a POP of over 100,000). So we must drive to Metro for DC, or drive into Baltimore. Sucks. Absolutely sucks.

[@DanHominem]

I dont think there is rail connecting Columbia to DC or Baltimore so thats a big part of why. Camden does a good job connecting Beltsville and Laurel but thats about it tbh

[@NikonF5user]

​@@DanHominemthere is - it's a spur near Annapolis Junction that extends into Columbia near the intersection of Broken Land and Snowden River. It's defunct, but with a bit of forethought ten years ago it would have made a fantastic commuter alternating between DC and Baltimore runs.

[@michaelspraggins5419]

@@NikonF5user Absolutely correct. In my wildest dreams, I imagined that the Baltimore light rail could have appropriated that spur and head into the Columbia downtown area. Don't ask me about the details of how, but obviously, not using the CSX tracks between Camden Yards and Annapolis Junction..... and then what if the Purple Line had a route that left Silver Spring and used the median up 29 into downtown Columbia??!! I was disappointed to find that the Purple Line will be using 1500 volts instead of 750 volts. Just dreaming.....

[@ebikeengineer]

@@DanHominem There is kinda - it's the Marc station at Dorsey. There is a rail line directly into Columbia but it's an unused freight line.

[@jec20721]

Columbia is a relatively new suburb (actually has a very interesting history) and doesn't have any pre-existing mainlines, which is pretty much a prerequisite for commuter rail service in this country.

[@ebikeengineer]

Don't move the Dorsey station to Elkridge. First there really isn't a good place in the center of Elkridge to put a station - especially with any parking. Secondly the Dorsey station has parking and serves Elkridge, Hanover, and most importantly Columbia (Maryland's 2nd biggest city).

[@TheGAMWolferz]

Yes, Yes!! A truly powerful commuter rail system! Extending to Wilmington would be a much better idea. And rerouting to Potomac Mills would definitely be a major help!

[@PiplupJames]

Excellent work, Dan and yeah I’ve always imagined a merged Fredericksburg/Penn line. That was on point🐧

[@qjtvaddict]

NE regional Virginia service for now

[@Nouvellecosse]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm in no way suggesting that the system couldn't or shouldn't be improved. But when it comes to comparisons such as to Philly and Chicago, an important piece to remember is that the DC area has an extremely long Metrorail system that partially fulfills the role of commuter rail in other cities. DC Metrorail is 129 miles long (208km) according to wikipedia compared to only 39.6 miles for Philly if you combine the two subway lines and PATCO or 102.8 miles for Chicago, a much larger city. So the Metrorail does a lot of the work of providing frequent (compared to typical North American commuter rail) service to suburban areas that would be served only by commuter rail in most other cities. So I don't think the DC area is actually behind many other US cities in terms of suburban rail service. The few traditional commuter rail routes it does have are basically what would be left over if DC started with a Philly-sized rapid transit system and then upgraded 89.4 miles of commuter rail into S-Bahn style metro. 89.4 miles is the difference between DC Metrorail and Philly's combined 39.6 miles of rapid transit. But I'm 100% in agreement that if improving the DC area commuter rail would benefit residents and visitors to the city then by all means.

[@cptyolowaffle]

Interesting take, and you are certainly right about the Metro being a quasi-regional rail to an extent, especially the silver line. However, you are forgetting that Philly has a decently sized trolley system, I’m not sure if you included the Norristown HSL, and I think SEPTA’s regional rail acts sort of like a Metro the closer it gets to Center City. The commuter rail lines DC does have go out farther than the Metro and I believe there’s still a lot of room for commuter rail growth

[@Worldly876]

@@cptyolowaffle so only if we think RTO is going to be permanent. The federal government has lagged the private sector in RTO and that WILL change in 2025, but will it change back to a permissive remote and TW allowed environment in 2029. Remember, federal employees get free transit benefits up to the IRS allowed limit, while those in the private sector may only get tax advantaged transit benefits (e.g. pre tax). That's why MARC and VRE ridership recovery has lagged so much, the feds are simply working remotely too much.

[@charlesnmuse]

I think you would have to connect the Camden and penn line closer to the Halethorpe station. You don’t really need a stations at arbutus and Halethorpe. The one can serve both areas. I like the idea of station in Lansdowne but you will have to use eminent domain to make space. Some of the stations you suggest are too close to each other.

[@Nerdy_dude]

Thank you for choosing my home commuter rail as ur submission I’m honored

[@JasonWeiss-g2b]

Baltimore should have a stop near Broadway, Hopkins Hospital is huge and about 1/2 a mile away. It also should have a Hopkins Bayview stop. As a practical matter, there would be the capacity through Baltimore after the new Frederick Douglas Tunnel is built and the old tunnel is rehabilitated.

[@AEC97]

Potomac Shores… eventually. 😂 I went to high school in the Potomac Shores neighborhood and they’ve been talking about the VRE station for years. I graduated HS in 2016, and I can’t believe they still haven’t opened it nearly a decade later.

[@MrMarshmallow26]

Great things are happening on the RF&P and hopefully will continue. Quantico station just had a redevelopment project completed, adding platform extensions, upgraded facilities, and a third track to assist traffic. VRE intends on doing this with several stations, and I believe Alexandria's redevelopment will begin next due to the VPRA-led Alexandria fourth track starting construction soon. Even better, from DC to Richmond, VPRA would like to have two mainline tracks dedicated to passenger rail; however, this is a huge project that must be done in smaller siding projects and phases.

[@Nerdy_dude]

You on RSU DC?

[@Nerdy_dude]

Roblox

[@29downtheline]

The Quantico expansion is pretty nice! I ride the train through there every now and then, so it’s been cool to see progress be made over time!

[@MrMarshmallow26]

@@29downtheline Soon, VPRA will also be breaking ground on the Alexandria fourth track and demolishing two overpasses, building new ones in their place so that a total of four tracks can pass under them. I hope that once more of these projects make more progress, it will have a trickle-down effect on the Peninsula and Petersburg-Norfolk region as well as other lines. Newport News and Norfolk will play a big role as eastern termini for the Commonwealth Corridor. The Buckingham Branch would also require attention if this project goes through. Perhaps other regions could even learn from Virginia and buy up right-of-way from host railroads for dedicated tracks (if and when it's feasible).

[@cptyolowaffle]

Hello, first of all just wanted to say this is a great video, and I appreciate you talking about something I feel like isn’t talked about enough. Although I think some of your proposed stations are too close together and I’m not sure if the little branch down south on the Fredericksburg line makes sense. I also think combining the Camden and Manassas lines together would make more sense instead of having a confusing 5th service type for the Penn line. I also just wanted to let you know that the VRE currently has a master plan of sorts in which they’re planning to increase service on both lines to 20 minutes in peak direction, 30 minutes off peak, everyday and for more of the day.

[@DanHominem]

The station at Spotsylvania already exists on VRE if thats what youre referring to.

[@29downtheline]

I would very much love to have a regional rail system like this! Thanks for coming up with this proposal! What would you do with the old (and completely incompatible) MARC and VRE rolling stock (aka the reason why VRE platforms are so low)?

[@DanHominem]

Wasnt aware they are incompatible. Sell them, probably. Maybe Metra will want their Gallery cars back 😂 Keep a few legacy fleet cars obv

[@29downtheline]

⁠@@DanHominem Aw but I love the gallery cars lol

[@DanHominem]

Theyre so ugly, I love them too!

[@ebikeengineer]

An interesting idea, but I don't get why an Arbutus station, especially where it's proposed. The Halethorp is close enough to Arbutus and can be reached by car or bike easily. The proposed Arbutus location is just under a mile from the existing Halethorp and not readily accessible to the town's center nor UMBC - not to mention the stop adds time to the commute. I could say the same about the two Laurel stops like you I'd ditch the racetrack station, that kind of closeness is good for light rail or subways, not so much for a commuter train.

[@ar123..._]

Good one, the only thing now is to find the ones that are willing to do it and spend the money😅🎉.

[@coverthestone]

This would be so hype

[@jec20721]

DC's commuter rail sucks in large part because Metro actually absorbs a lot of the transit demand in the close in suburbs, unlike other metro areas like Philadelphia and New York. Through-running is nice, but it really isn't the end all be all it's made out to be. Basic all-day/weekend service expansion on the Camden and Brunswick lines should be the priority, as should the planned station expansions from BWI to Martin Airport. I would also extend MARC to Wilmington/Elkton/Newark before worrying about through running, but there are huge logistical and compatibility obstacles. For instance, electric MARC trains (and in the near future all Penn Line trains will be electric) can't travel south of DC. And doesn't VRE still have many single-platform stations? Also their entire fleet of railcars are restricted to low-level platforms (every station on the Penn Line between DC and Baltimore, and a couple on the Brunswick and Camden Lines are high-level). Amtrak may not be as strict as CSX, but they have strict requirements for any additional slots on the NEC. It's part of the reason why nearly all MARC equipment can be operated at 125mph (fastest in the nation).

[@mdEAS175]

12:56 Where was that reported?

[@davidrivera9743]

Martin is your White Marsh station. Why is there no buses between Martin and White Marsh???

[@Riptide314]

The one thing I disagree with significantly in this video is the idea that WMATA should run this new rail line. WMATA manages the metro and bus system around DC and DC suburbs, and having them run a radically different rail system servicing many new areas would not be a good idea. Plus, it would need to involve delaware in its management now, instead of just MD, DC, and VA. This would significantly slow things down. Apart from that, I love this merger idea, as well as the work you've done to specificy new station locations.

[@cptyolowaffle]

I agree, I think a new agency, one combined from the VRE and MARC would make sense. I think WMATA has enough on their plate already

[@charlesnmuse]

Having WMATA operate makes sense because it’s governed by MD, DC and VA. But I think MARC should just run it. Just have MARC run into northern VA and just past the Marylakd Delaware line.

[@chrispontani6059]

The problem with this proposal is you’re creating a 3-4 hour local service, end to end. This would really expose you to poor on-time performance as lines that long, any hiccup will be tough to recover. I don’t think this all needs to be done in one project. I think you need to incrementally increase service and upgrade stations to level boarding (high level platforms). I understand the operational flexibility of through-running at Union, but I think you need to limit the extent of those trains to only Baltimore or Washington, giving the most service between the two. So Fredericksburg to Baltimore and Wilmington/Newark to Washington. The northern terminus at Wilmington is problematic. You only have three tracks there currently, elevated in a historic structure. The better transfer is Newark. You can build pocket tracks outside the 4-track NEC and create island platforms like Trenton. What really needs to be done on this southern end of the NEC is pretty straightforward. 4 tracks where there’s only three, and increase service to 2 or 3 trains per hour. Even keeping VRE and MARC separate is fine so long as you have frequent service. They don’t need to be combined for some fantasy trips. Truly regional trips should be handled by Amtrak, also with increased frequency.

[@qjtvaddict]

Not if they have their own tracks

[@qjtvaddict]

Pathetic