What is a Dungeon Master Worth Pay to Play Dungeons and Dragons

Nerdarchy the News Letter- nerdarchynewsle...
What is a Dungeon Master Worth Pay to Play Dungeons and Dragons
Nerdarchy weighs in on the pay to play Dungeon Mastering question. Each Nerdarchist gives their own opinion on playing and paying for their favorite past time playing D&D. Does a game master deserve be paid for their services.
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[@Nerdarchy]

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[@TheReapergod36]

Dear Nerdarchy, I've recently tried to get into DnD after playing several other Big Book RPGs (BBRPG) namingly all of the Warhammer 40k, Mutants and Masterminds, Vampire: The Masquerade, Maid RPG. I find myself playing DnD for four hour sessions to my usual eight hour sessions; but I do find myself not enjoying it like other BBRPG's. I have always been a very narratively focused player rather than rolling dice and combat. I've spoke to my DnD group, (I play as a Gnoll in 5E) and found it very hard to do what my character would do. Everything I ever try to do is either narratively focused and is punished by the DM hard; or absolutely scenario focused and fucking awful in terms of decision making. I find the combat to be brutal, and we've faced five skeletons that nearly killed me despite staying in the back. We faced a giant spider that did kill me and I made the death save. I'm trying to enjoy and do what my character would do. But the DM was speaking of how DnD is more combat focused then others. The combat feels like an MMO to me, everyone has a very specific role and must be played a certain way or die. I'm used to fighting things that are weak or equal but low damage at level one. DnD I've been nearly killed twice and have little to no idea how to enjoy the game. I love to roleplay, and I love to play out a character. But the combat focus has bored me to death and the narrative from our fairly new DM has been cardboard cut-outs at best for everyone. It feels very much like an MMO as everyone either only says one thing or is a quest giver. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this; but if you need a question, do you have solution to my enjoyment issue? Am I just not the right person for DnD?

[@Nerdarchy]

Reapergod36 Possibly, but isn't the whole problem. You might not be as compatible with this group as you'd like. I'd recommend you check our Scarlet Sisterhood game we run to see if that is more your style. It's being played with 5e D&D. Perhaps you could DM for a bit and show the group what you are interested in. Nerdarchist Dave

[@TheReapergod36]

Interesting idea, I'm fairly certain they know of the campaign I'm speaking of. Compatibility maybe an issue in terms of the type of roleplay, as the personal compatibility seems not to be an much of an issue. I'll check out the Scarlet Sisterhood game. I'm going to pm your suggestion to the GM, as it could be an intriguing experiment. We had quite the revelation in the game as both warlocks in the game were confused with how spell slots worked. We believed we needed to attune spells to said slots each long rest and thus couldn't use any other spells till we had another long rest (knowing that our currently equipped spells could be refreshed on short rests). The only analogy I could think of was that we thought from this five spell toolbelt we could select to use the wrench for today and only after a long rest could we put that tool back and take out another. After a short rest we could use the tool we had selected of course. It was an odd thing where I wasn't the only one confused by interpreting a book.

[@sath2749]

I agree with nerdarchy. D&D is not a combat focused game unless that is what the dm makes it. I have played all the games you mentioned and more. Vampire is known as a story telling game, but i played in a vampire game that was almost all combat. But i will say this. you said your DM is new. Starting in some thing new usually is not easy for people and they will go with the letter of the module and try to run the game right. i personally can't run a module like others i don't like the narrow path laid out rather letting the players choose their direction. that being said i could be looked at as a punishing DM cause to me every cause has an effect. players decisions really shape the direction of my games. and i too love role playing. combat is not focus in my games but i will not make all combats easy. there has to be easy combats, challenging combats, and impossible ones because you should not be fighting every one. people i run love to think and plan out their objectives before ever trying them. I find mental challenges to be the greatest reason to play the game.

[@DougVehovec]

spend some time talking with the players and DM together about what you'd like your game to be like and get everyone on the same page, at least in terms of understanding everyone's expectations. To me, D&D (or any RPG) is simply a reason to get together for fun and a tool to help shape a collaborative storytelling experience. I just DM'ed for my group tonight and we had a narrative combat scenario with just a couple of dice rolls, hours of social interactions and PC discussions, and then two brief skirmishes. My players are interested in the narrative skeleton I lay out but i let them steer the ship in the directions they enjoy. I am fortunate to have players who really buy-in and love immersion and character development. We play pretty fast and loose with the rules if it creates more interesting stories. Like Nerdarchy suggests, ask your group if you can run a session the way you imagine it. The best thing about D&D or any RPG is that the rules are there to use but the game is unique to every table!

[@alexanderyount4944]

I am a pay-to-play DM, of a sort. Instead of money, though, I get paid in food. Over the years I have established a rule that my groups always buy the food for our sessions. For example: my current group meets every Monday. We meet at 2pm and run until the group absolutely needs to leave (usually 4 to 5 hours). The first thing we do after we meet is hit the local supermarket and my group pools their money to buy drinks, snacks, and dinner. The average bill is around $50. Basically, I get fed and keep any leftovers while my players get to play many hours of D&D. I think it is a fair trade.

[@Judasdfg]

That's just common courtesy... Or a way to get some bonus xp ;)

[@alexandraelizabeth8522]

I really feel like that's less of payment and more a sign of appreciation for the fact that the DM/GM side has a lot of prep work :-)

[@TheDMGinfo]

If there are 5 of you in the group, you get paid $10 in food trade, so $2 to $2.50 per hour. The other players are paying $2 to $2.50 per hour to play and eat. Is the food free or the game?

[@baconghoti]

Alexander Yount the way it always was, plus the "hold the game where the DM wants".

[@thenovicedm7966]

Wow....I've been getting shafted! I buy my own food and sodas.....just like everyone else at the table. In fact, I sometimes pay for the "host" food....since I run a game at a friends house.

[@gregoryfloriolli9031]

I agree with Dave. People should be to do whatever they want with their time and money but it's a horrible business model. It's going to take 4 hours just to DM the session. Then, because you're getting paid, there's going to be a lot of pressure to do a really good job DMing, which means a lot of prep work. There's also going to be time taken up organizing the game. When you add up all that time, each session is going to be about a day's worth of work. I couldn't see charging people anything less than $50 a session to make it worth your time and I don't know how many people are willing to pay that much. If you charged $10 a session, which is more reasonable, and you have 6 players and each session involves 8 hours total of game plus prep time, you're only making $7.50 an hour which is less than minimum wage.

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

While I do agree with Dave on this principle. I think one could (at least in some areas/cases) work with a few friends toward establishing something more like a "work/pay membership club" kind of business model to provide a place and some basic resources for the game(s) hosted... It would basically have to start like a shop, but the first members of the "club" bring in some of their old stuff for the game. Old dice, old/used books, a few spare character sheets... printer... stuff... Newer club-members and prospects might have some of their own materials, and just be interested in the "basic membership" so for like $5/month, they get access to the building and tables and chairs... If they "need" materials, either a flat-rate for buying stuff (which can be ordered for them online and the "used' stuff offered as "lender" gear. OR, they can just decide they'd pay the "advanced" membership to get access to any/all club books and screens and dice... etc... I don't really know everything, but that's probably how I'd start it out, and then build it based on members' meetings and let members bring in stuff they're "tired of" or "lose interest in" to trade into the club for membership dues, or for price-reductions when ordering new gear, miniatures, whatever... Something like this could grow (at least to a reasonable degree) and depending on how far one took it, it could even branch out in decorations and "atmosphere" for more advanced and different settings and themes to the games. Just getting paid to GM, though... I don't see any relevant good coming of that. There just isn't enough free-floating money or time running around for the model to work. :o)

[@nfortin24]

Federal minimum is 7.25. Just saying😁

[@gimpzilla]

If you're doing what you love you'll never work a day in your life. Professional GM doesn't need car payments, fancy clothes, cigarettes to forget how much you hate work... So lower wage but probably lower cost of living if you're happy

[@DungeonDad]

I feel like if you are asking someone to use up hours of their time so that you and your friends can enjoy playing D&D, as long as everyone is on the same page, there is nothing wrong with seeing that person compensated for their time. I think this can be great for new players who might want to learn from someone who is fairly experienced in the game.

[@vichraev.5386]

The difference here is that asking someone to use up hours of their time implies that it is unenjoyable (like a mundane job). I DM because I love it. I love every minute of my prep, and I love the sessions themselves. I would never want to be paid to DM because then it would feel more like a job and it introduces all kinds of considerations that would be tedious such as: am I making enough money, am I giving the players their money's worth? Just having those questions on my mind taint the entire experience beyond belief, in my opinion.

[@gamesdisk]

If I was good enough I would love to run dnd 8 hours a day 5 days a week. I feel that you can charge to run but you should expect a higher level of play. Intresting story's, good npcs, remarkable combats and just a high level of prep and polish. They need to a professional product and the gm will need to act like a professional.

[@stitchthealchemist1520]

gamesdisk just like anything else, you get what you pay for.

[@gamesdisk]

Stitchthealchemist well that's the thing. You are paying for a person. The skill won't always reflex the price. Look at builders , you can get really good ones charging the same price as the cowboys.

[@NoESanity]

hell, doing 8 hour days 5 days a week. 4 two hour session, or 2 three hour session and 1 2 hour session charging $5 an hour per player is a higher salary than most people will ever have. even just 2 players is $10 an hour, a nice group of 6 is 30. hell if you have a couple groups with 6 a group or two with 4 you could probably do some pro bono games for children or newbs while still living well above the minimum wage.

[@PapagiannisWoW]

Usually it's not per player but per game. So you wouldnt normally get more money from having more players. You can just put your own limit as a GM. Also, most paying players would rather be in a small group than a big one

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

AND for the higher standard of play, professionalism (which involving improv' theatricals and storytelling is hell to discern in the first place), and avoiding offensive material at any and all costs... (yeah, good luck with that)... You're talking about a serious quantity of prep' time. At the end of all the math, just for a 4-hour session, you're probably going to go through a day's worth of prep' minimal... So it's definitely NOT going to be all the "up-front" time that you spend on the game. Now, I'm all about keeping every shred of prep-material from one game to another, just so I don't rebuild charts, tables, or obviously great baddies... BUT there's only so far that can even carry you through as a GM... AND it's going to take serious experience and time to accrue much of a personal library of "content" to work with... So you might build up, but it's only going to be so far, and it will take TIME... that you're not including in the original "oh, $5/person per session-hour please" price-bid. THEN taking into account, for most players a "better" time at the table includes more "personal GM-time" so they WON'T opt for the "big-party-of-6" sessions... pretty much automatically. There'll be the "early" crowds who take it on, until they start to figure out how much faster and more fun an "intimate campaign of 3" type session is... THEN kiss the grand party gig GOOD BYE... SO you're only looking at $15/hour of game-time, regardless of campaign arch'... and all the prep time only earns you so much... Nope, Dave's right. I don't have a problem with it, (do what you want)... BUT this is a TERRIBLE business model. :o)

[@Melantrist]

Having in mind that people pay for all sorts of pointless stuff, I see no reason why a time consuming task like DMing shouldn't be treated as a worthy profession. After all it comes down to supply and demand for storytellers, and mind you not everyone is a native english speaker, so online games with foreigners might pose a problem.

[@ColonelEviscerator]

Like anything in a free market, a DM is worth whatever the market will bear. However when accepting cash you lose a lot of your authority as a DM because your players are now customers.

[@shadowgear7032]

Well the players are paying you so if they don't want a good game that's there fault.

[@nokomarie1963]

Exactly.

[@Flikis]

That was mostly right, but I'd like to concider that the DM should have fun and be happy too, not just the players. However, monetary gain might be enough to ignore that factor.

[@oOPPHOo]

I've deliberately avoided all Pay2Play games on roll20 for that reason. It's one thing to play with a bunch of strangers. That has been going surprisingly well given enough communication. It's another thing when every player at the table has made a financial investment and they all wish to get their money's worth. I imagine that can easily ruin your experience as a player even if the DM is himself a good one worth the money.

[@BW022]

@oO PH Oo.... curious, but I've found DMing in Roll20 to be annoying. I've had two groups fall apart after 3-5 sessions. I've been considering charging... not because I want/need the money, but in the hopes that people who commit financially to the game won't bail all the time.

[@oppressedbysun5324]

wait, people are complaining on the internet?! When did this start?

[@dwarfbeardthedungeonmaster6067]

august 6th 1991

[@SomeJustice19k]

1985 ish.... When the first millinnials were hatched.

[@bobthegamingtaco6073]

Hatched, implying that they're secretly Alien-esque monsters. XD

[@SomeJustice19k]

Bob The Gaming Taco, as someone who was born in 1985, I can confirm that we're aliens.

[@kathycoleman4648]

Neither of these things bother me. Paying a non-celebrity DM to be in a game is like paying for Tuba lessons or coaching at the gym or going to the movies. If it's $10 - 15 a session for a few hours of gametime per week, that's a pretty solid deal for some good entertainment. Especially if you are new and learning, or if you live in an area where you're having trouble finding a consistent group. As for paying to be in a group with a celebrity DM, that pretty much speaks for itself. People pay big bucks to get 'backstage passes' with famous people--at least someone doing that via D&D is going to have some form of interaction worth remembering for what they are paying. I don't think either of these are the same as, or full replacements for, a table filled with long time friends. But I don't think they're a threat to that either. People need to be players before they can become good DMs, and even those who like to DM sometimes want a chance to just play the darn game. DMing takes a load of time and creativity, and if people can score a little pocket change via their creative talents, I say go for it.

[@fantell]

used to charge a surcharge for attendance to my game for a couple of years. It works, but you have to have players that understand what they are paying for. The money basically let me buy what I needed to run the game (occasional books, dice as needed, milk, coffee, and a couple of bottles of soda for game night, and about half my weeks groceries on top of that). Oh, and I got free rent for a year in one flat. Just had to put together a game twice a week. 5 bucks a player, 6 players in one game, and 5 in the other. 55 bucks less a week that I had to work for, which is about 5 hours of work I didn't have to do, not to mention the $80 bucks a week I didn't have to pay for rent. the 5 hours I didn't have to work was my prep time, which was also the same time I used to do the housework for the day (part of the free rent deal - I cooked and DM'ed, and they paid rent/power/etc. still had to pay for my own food though.) IF its not the only thing you're doing, paying to play can work out. I COULD have charged twice as much for each player, but more than about 5 bucks each and people start thinking they're entitled to the game, rather than privileged to be in it. Best part was most of the stuff I prepared could be used twice and both games were creating content for the other as I played them off each other, so two games (four hours each, most weeks) wasn't actually a whole lot of work to sort out. an hour or so in the afternoons while prepping dinner, and a couple of hours every week working on giant a3 or a2 maps for the coffee table (graphics artist in the flat, so had the desk/tools to put together sweet maps very quickly when he was in class and I wasn't) My own studying was... well, I wasn't really in any classes. I just kind of ended up in a student flat while bouncing around, and attending for fun with a mate, because the classes were interesting and the girls were fun. I did have a part time job, about 18 hours a week. Data Entry and stock management, real boring stuff, but it was at the Library, so it was a pretty chill. anyway, point is, charging people to play is never going to pay the bills without some sort of real gimmick, but it sure can make something you love doing a whole lot easier to get done, so if you can get them to pay, go for it. just don't try and gouge them for it.

[@JoshMacLeod]

It would be interesting if it led to something akin to Yelp for DMs.

[@ericgrajeda9916]

Josh MacLeod That would be awesome.

[@TheDreamSyndicateArts]

+Josh MacLeod Haha, I could also see the mishap of, "I tried to hire a Dungeon Master, but it was the wrong kind of Dungeon Master... they kept trying to shove a ball gag in my mouth- how is this conducive to roleplaying?!" -Formerly Nerdarchist Ryan

[@milesmatheson1142]

"Yelp! Pretend like your opinion matters!" lel

[@a.j.kinney7991]

"How is it not conducive to roleplaying?" Says my wife.

[@danielrobinson1467]

Introducing a business relationship into the table dynamic makes me very nervous. That said, you might get a better finished product if you have someone who does it for a living and I have respect for anyone who can make money off of such a cool passion.

[@shannonyork4625]

Time is money, you are also paying for entertainment, you pay to see a movie, think of D&D as an interactive movie, therefore if you pay $10 to $15 dollars to see a three hour movie, paying the same for a three hour D&D session is not unreasonable.

[@Lordserpentus]

i have played in a pay to play model, becuase i live in rural america and i have no other options, also in my experiance a paid DM works harder to make it funer for you on average, becuase your his paycheck. but on a side note i'd pay any of nerdarchy before andrew armstrong, you guys are very similar to some old friends of mine. that i no longer live by.

[@Postmann88]

I love the idea of DM's that charge for their service. I am in a position in my life where my time is more valuable than my money. I dont want to waste it with a flaky DM or group. I would expect a quality product though, an organised game, interesting stories and NPC's, quality figurines and maps, and someone that really knew how to run a game. I don't see myself willing to pay for online games either, could be the old guy in me now but I just feel like you loose something when you take D&D online. All this for a paltry $20 a session. Sign me up.

[@chrisspray666]

ive been considering offering my DM time for pay, but i agree with you. you loose something doing this online.

[@angrymushroom26]

20$ a session would be like $5 an hour, less due to prep if they want it done well. Even with multiple players paying, that is still not a lot of money towards it

[@Froschritter]

I like to DM but I would feel uncomfortable charging people and then sitting at the table with one attention grabbing solo hero, maybe two murder hobos and two shy people who are uncomfortable. There are a lot of scenarios in my mind that would let me give people their money back because of one or two people ruining the fun. I'm not sure how often you would face such a situation but I hope for all the pro GMs that it is rare.

[@NoESanity]

while you dm if a player buys you a pizza do you feel guilty?

[@jgroth3906]

I'd be uncomfortable charging people because I'm a shit DM. lol

[@TempestTossedWaters]

I'm a paid game master, I run five paid campaigns on Roll20, and I can tell you that paying for sessions makes problem players evaporate right quick. It repels problem players and fills your slots with quality people.

[@thenovicedm7966]

I'd like to view one of these professional games. Do you post them? Just curious to see how my own games stack up. I'm not much for Roll20 play atm....but I'm looking to branch into online gaming. My Tues/Sun games are very good (I play and I DM) but I've always been attracted to the possibilities of online gaming.

[@TempestTossedWaters]

+The Novice DM I know one of the players likes recording them, but I haven't posted them online for a very selfish and short-sighted reason, once I post them onto the Internet I can no longer use the same plot! :) Just started my 6th weekly session today, it's quickly becoming a full-time job. I'm looking to run a few more games per week and make a website to get customers and build a fan-base.

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

I also think that is there are players willing to pay for a good campaign then its likely those players would also take their own roleplaying a bit more seriously and be more invested in everyone having a good time.

[@JaceDarkstar]

In my area game shops charge a fee of 20 bucks and 25% of what the player pay goes back to the dm

[@hakonatli]

My wife ran games for youth that wanted to learn how to play d&d at our local gaming store and got store credit. It was a venue for kids, many of whom were "troubled", to get into contact with other kids and learn to play d&d. Later when a group of adults that wanted to try d&d contacted the store they recommended her and she got 400$ for running two sessions over a weekend. I can see many situations where busy people with time constraints, or people that want to do game with a group where no one has the experience or interest to GM, or even people that are just intimidated about joining some random group on the internet with social rules they don't understand, would prefer to pay someone competent to run an adventure for them. Although the best argument so far was made by Dave: Mind your own damn business!

[@timothyferrelli8274]

As a DM who does charge to run a weekly game at a local store, I understand both sides of the argument. I only charge $5 per person per session. The local store doesn't have an issue with it, because it keeps people in the store.

[@peterdun1]

My weekly gaming session occurs on a Sunday at the local community centre. There's usually 20-25 of us there with 4-5 games going on at once (D and D is generally a staple every week). We each pay £5 towards the hire of the building and all it's facilities and the games usually last between 6-6 and half hours....it's good fun !!!

[@jenniferzoch3309]

I once ran a campaign for 10-12 hrs. a day, 6-7 days a week, for over 3 months. It was a Mystara campaign using 2nd edition rules so I had a lot of detail on the world to pull from. I didn't get burned out because it's something I loved doing. I loved plucking ideas from my mind and giving them form to be enjoyed by others within the game. I really wish I could be paid for running a game like that. If you can do something you enjoy and get paid to do it that's not work at all, well that's a very happy life.

[@meph2000]

A couple of local game stores in my area have started a "Tip the GM" policy. You make a donation to your GM in the form of store credit. Most stores have a base recommendation of $2 a person. With a standard table of 7 players that is 14 bucks for a four hour session. It isn't a lot but it goes towards snacks and drinks for the GM with a bit left over I can save up to get that next source book.

[@stitchthealchemist1520]

I am a pro GM. It was really cool to hear your guys' opinions on it. I don't feel comfortable charging a whole lot- just enough to be worth my time. I feel like most games are not worth an awful lot of money to pay per session/per campaign and so on, especially in today's internet where you can find a group very easily.

[@invisiblemoosenz]

Stitchthealchemist I have a serious question for you if that's cool. How do you differentiate between the professional service you offer compared to free dms? Is there anything in particular you offer compared to say someone finding a dm online?

[@stitchthealchemist1520]

invisiblemoose well, for starters, I am willing to purchase and learn a game of what you want isn't already in my library. With me, the players get exactly what they ask for because I am providing a service. Take your typical session zero, the GM will have a lot of sway and input. You let me know what you want to do and I will craft a custom campaign setting for each customer. Because I am taking money to run it and the customers are paying for it, it is also less likely anyone will miss a session if they've already invested in the game. I hold myself in a professional manner as well. In my weekly game I run for my own entertainment, for instance, we tend to talk quite a bit off topic for awhile. None of that in my paid games unless of course that's what the players want.

[@invisiblemoosenz]

Stitchthealchemist nice. Thanks for sharing!

[@PapagiannisWoW]

having worked part time as a GM on a local store, I can tell you that knowing that you are getting paid allowed me to enjoy certain types of games that I wouldn't enjoy as much if I was doing it for free. I wouldn't run Pathfinder any more, for example. I ran Pf in the store and I didn't mind as much. I knew I was getting rewarded.

[@stitchthealchemist1520]

PapagiannisWoW I feel the same way. I'm not a huge World of Darkness fan but the reward makes it so much more enjoyable

[@TheWerdnavro]

Great conversation. I personally would never pay for a dungeon master, but that is because I find it to be a social experience with friends; I wouldn't want to spend money to play with a DM I didn't know and people I did not know. However, you make a good point at why people would pay and I completely agree!

[@HowtoRPG]

I have paid to play D&D in game stores and conventions. I have been offered: shop discounts, miniatures, books, D&D products and money recently to Dungeon Master. Its always been around and it continues to grow. Its not going to stop playing for free.

[@AgentGreen13]

There's a bar in our area that has Beers and Barbarians night. It's a $5 buy in, you get a beer, and it's useful for our group. We just showed up with our thieves guild characters, and whenever night watches came to on our turns, we would rob everyone in camp, and leave them in the woods, no gear, no fire, no watchmen, and sprinkle a bit of meat on bedrolls. Next week, back at our DMs house, resume thieves guild game, with treasure. Go back to bar a month later, one guy recognizes me in person, but can't do anything until game, as his last character was mauled by an owlbear before he could get out of his bedroll.

[@danielgreen6302]

Dave's comment is insightful & accurate, my only question is since i love marathon gaming. It would become impossible to pay to play for ; although now, if a sort of barter was in place. Say beverages or cook a nice main course meal to bring i.e. some chili, barbecue ribs, pizza or something less sloppy like chicken salad with some soft tortilla wraps. Now i could get behind that.

[@kenmcnutt2]

I run a game for free, (almost) every Saturday in Buford Georgia. Session 23 will be tomorrow.

[@TheZarkoc]

If you have ever posted a players wanted listing on roll20 you'd see just how massive the need for DMs is. Depending on how much work you put into the listing you get anywhere between 10-20 players asking to jump it.

[@TheZarkoc]

And that's for a one shot with a noob DM, the more well know one get applications in the hundreds.

[@vampirevomit2414]

Zarko Cekovski no

[@ElenaAideen]

Zarko Cekovski oh, yeah. Very very true! I helped author one of the 2nd ed character sheets on roll20 and every time I've had a slot open in the campaign I run I usually get flooded with player applications. Last time I looked there were over 400 player aps to my game, and that's for a Wednesday night game. Ran a 1 shot on a Friday night a little while ago and less than an hour after posting it I had 65 applicants. Had to pull the Looking for Players listing so I could sort through them all. From messaging with some other sheet authors that's a typical response, folks see that *Sheet Author* tag and damn near beg to play with you. I kind of think it's funny actually, because coding a sheet has nothing to do with being a good GM

[@JacksonOwex]

ElenaAideen I think people flock to you because they see you worked on a sheet knowing that you did that because you love the game and want to see others enjoy it as much as you do. So these people have a pretty reasonable idea that you will likely be a decent DM because you have passion for the game. I don't like the term "professional Dungeon Master" though! It takes the game from being ones hobby to your job and just look around to see how little people care about their jobs anymore! I have recently put SERIOUS thought into trying this out but I love tabletop gaming too much to make it my job, I don't want to feel OBLIGATED to run a game I want to run a game because it's fun!

[@roberthamel2354]

I used to go to a shop that had an entrance fee of like 3 dollars. We played D&D, magic the Gathering, and several other types of games. the fee was for use of the space which i understood even at that age. This was over 20 years ago

[@panpiper]

I was playing AD&D back in the 70's. Tabletop RPGing is a very different quality of game than CRPGs or MMP CRPGs. I would love to be able to play my favorite game once a week, but it is virtually impossible to find someone who has the time and inclination to game master the game. It seems to me absolutely reasonable to pay a professional GM to run a game. Of course a person has every right to be able to pay their rent, groceries, etc.. I see no issue with someone offering that service. I wish there was someone in Montreal.

[@CubanWriter]

AL tables at my local gaming stores charge 3 bucks per person per 4 hour session. This is then turned in to the store, which credits the DM with store credit.

[@ryushi17]

a friend of mine owns a game store and i am running a game and we charge a small fee for players this goes to cover a small kickback to the GMs (I am not the only GM running games here) the room to play which includes an awesome gaming table with maps and a large collection of minis (Mostly mine) and there are also incentives for the players we are doing monthly draws where we will have your character 3D printed so you have your very own mini for the game. personally i love it and our players do too.

[@Ghost-dx1eq]

I've considered running a regular game for some form of compensation at my local game shop, by becoming one of the DM's for Adventure League, and I'm also considering running a regular game myself as well for some form of compensation (whatever is left after covering expenses like snacks and drinks, and the 'VIP' gaming room at the game shop, which would be their form of kickback for letting us use the space), and it wouldn't be on the same day/night as their hosting of the official Adventure League games. It's something that I'm going to likely start discussing with the other Adventure League players who may be interested in playing a game in a purely original game setting without the restrictions that AL puts on characters.

[@Dicyroller]

I totally agree with you.I am struggling with this in the group I run. I don't want them to pay, but I would like them to bring the snacks. I write all the content. It takes me three times the play time to do so because I don't know what they will do. I do keep it short, but still. in the complete home brew, I have to know what is there.

[@kielhawkins9529]

I don't know about paying to play with a DM, but throwing a few bucks the DMs way to help buy books and materials isn't a bad idea.

[@JacksonOwex]

Yeah just don't be stupid like I was and think a friend who says he wants to DM will do it long and buy him all three core 5E rulebooks, it was also kind of a Birthday gift to him too, and another PHB for myself! We have only played about a half dozen sessions or so, upsetting but sometimes I'm an idiot!

[@ronishamay]

in roll20 there is a huge differance in supply and demand for gm's, about 10 players to every gm... so it can be hard to find a constant game for a long time at hours that work for you with the system and playstyle you want...

[@tjpatterson725]

I would pay to play. Since I moved up in the mountains of my state its hard to find people to play. I've checked the local game shop, while they do play all sorts of RPGs, they don't do D&D. Basically that is only because no one is willing to DM. I thought about learning to DM, but before I do that I'd like a chance to play to learn 5e, up until the move I only played 1e, with one or two 2e things thrown in. Now, whether or not I can afford the price is another story...

[@SagaxCorvinus]

Indeed, this one was a very, very interesting discussion and those were good points that you guys made! Personally, maybe I would pay for some occasional play if I had no group at all, even more so because I GM/DM most of the times. But I wouldn't charge people to play, except if it became my source of income. What I do with my gaming groups, however, is to ask the players to contribute with the basic stuff (food, drinks and such), because everyone wanna play, but that doesn't mean that the responsibility should weigh solely on the host's shoulders. So, it's not exactly a "payment." It's more like a courtesy.

[@DiceLifeJohnny]

hey guys this is DMJ. i currently have a weekly paid group and almost have filled a second group. im doing this no matter what the opposition has said. nice video guys.

[@invisiblemoosenz]

Damn nate, you hit the nail on the head. Volunteers are good, I run intro sessions for d&d for free too, but there's no way I can meet the demand of new players that are out there. If I charged for it I'm sure I'd have interest, and I'd be pretty incentivized to do more. I'm certainly not going to begrudge anyone who wants to ask a fee for their work.

[@videogameplaybynerdarchy1706]

Thanks for volunteering your time and for adding to the conversation

[@Fu4li]

I don't know anyone interested in D&D so I would pay to play. But it would have to be in person. I tried playing with strangers on roll 20, but it didn't feel right. One of my biggest issues with roll 20 is not using real dice. Rolling dice is important to me. I also noticed that people were not fully commuted to the game, like they would be if we were all in the same room. I would definitely pay to play with you guys.

[@bronzieblue63]

Personally, I think it depends on the quality of the DM, like if I'm paying to play a game, I don't want generic level 1 goblin oneshot #23 for $20. And I think the logic behind, "I'm not paying $10 to play DnD with you, I'd pay that with Matt Mercer" is that they don't know you, nor do they know how good a DM you are as far as campaign and story quality goes

[@tomharris5649]

The case with Nerdarchy charging to DM, you might bundle the price into being a Nerdarchy patron. How this becomes lucrative is up to you guys. $10 currently gets you all the game content that Nerdarchy creates. Any patron is part of the monthly drawing to play with Nerdarchy, right? For another 15 to 20 dollars a month, you are guaranteed a session. Think of it as being like a VIP membership. Anyway, Nate, I wish you the best of fortunes in your future endeavors. Stay nerdy!

[@videogameplaybynerdarchy1706]

Thanks, Tom, we also give a bundle of written content as a reward with that 2-20 dollars

[@NoESanity]

I've always believed in a Pay to Play system. the DM doesn't buy food. if the DM and the host are different people, neither of them should be responsible for food, because the DM is offering his time outside the game building the game, and the host is donating a place to play. This was the rule in my first group when i was single digits, and has been a rule i have put into every group that I have joined since.

[@ptemperance8642]

One aspect that was not mentioned is quality of the gm. Gamemastering is, in my opinion, a performance art. If your buddy plays the guitar, do you complain about pro musicians asking for money? Of course not, and you still pay to go see these pro musicians because they are highly skilled and far more entertaining than your guitar playing friend in their mother's basement. The same applies to gms. Many gms are just hobbyists, and their ability to run games has the quality of a mere hobbyist. Some gms though, have the skill and ability to provide a far deeper and more entertaining experience than a common gm, and they should be able to money by being a cut above the rest.

[@sirsketchalot2164]

P Temperance best comment on this thread. Let me pick your brain because I see a lot of pay to play on roll 20. What should we expect as a player? If I'm paying, should the DM be a rule hawk that knows the rules like the back of their hand?

[@FlubbersQuid]

For me having access to an experienced DM to roleplay for me and some friends that has never played D&D would be really awesome. We are a mixed group all interested in trying but the availability where we live is non-existant. Buying the books is another issue for us since there is little encouragement for us to spend the quite large sum of money to try it.

[@johnkirk2863]

I think the thing to do is everyone pitches in money to get miniatures accessories and adventures rather than paying the DM outright

[@huehuecoyotl2]

But for some GMs, they might have all the materials they need and what you're paying them for isn't overhead costs, it's for their time and expertise.

[@thenovicedm7966]

If you want to play (as a player) feel free to do so. Though I doubt we'd ever meet across a tabletop.

[@Comrade2261]

I really enjoyed this video. I'm a player/DM. At the comic store I DM at, we're charged $2 to play, but I get a free drink. At the other place I play in, it's $5, but I think it's due to the atmosphere. It's a Gaming Cafe that has food and even free refills on some drinks and popcorn.

[@radred609]

Where i'm based the gaming community is very active and there are always multiple different campaigns going on within multiple social circles. To the point where GMs are often looking for players, rather than the other way around. That said, the table etiquette has always included little things like players providing food and drinks. be it pizza, chips, lasagna, soft drink, or booze, the GM's food and drinks are provided by the players. Now, that's obviously not the same as being paid to GM. but it is a nice little bonus. and when spread amongst 4-5 people it's really only a few bucks per person to feed and water your GM.

[@Grumpyoldgamer310]

I agree, do what you want as long as nobody is getting harmed, personally I never have and never would pay to play DnD. Including any celebrity DM’s etc. It’s all about being with friends or family for me, if Im having to pay you or you me, then your not my friend or family member.

[@drakonovi3113]

I pay 1 pound a week, and a 10 pounds a year. But that is to be part of a gaming club, so it allows us to buy stuff for everyone, including rent the place we play.

[@snarlbuckle]

Considering the back end prep work, I'm actually a little surprised that we haven't developed a culture of tipping our DMs when we have an excellent session. Each player may play for 2-4 hours per session and be invested at the limit of one book, one mini, and a set of dice. The DM provides EVERYTHING else and works for may more hours in addition to the game session. Why aren't we regularly tipping well prepared DMs?

[@shawndougherty6732]

Hey good topic/video. I pay to play every week. I don't have many friends, my work schedule is a bit unpredictable and I don't have a laptop . So once a week I go to a game shop play in an Adventurers League for Four Dollars to get my DnD fix.

[@mnickerson2]

The bigger conventions oftentimes does many things to pay for their Dungeon Masters. Some of them you can make $300 or more a weekend and other ones you get free stuff like new Wizards of the Coast books that are coming out or even signed copies of them.

[@jasonspurlock1318]

at the game I go to common ground in Dallas Texas they have you either pay 3 dollars for the dm to get store credit or you buy something 3 dollars from the game room to play. My dad who is 70 it was a great way for him to build up dice and support the store. I think above 5 dollars is to high but I see nothing wrong with 3 to 5 dollars to support good dm''s or game room. With one I used to play first edition in indy indiana we paid but I forgot how much to the game room. The only thing is when the game room has food so tempted to buy meals I spent so much money when working for a living but when disable it is hard to be able to play because disability limits game play I used to spend hours at the game room. Figured the money was the same as going to a theater and watching a movie but got a better storyline

[@christie2999]

Let's take a look from a different perspective. Most players show up to a game with little or no investment. You might buy your own players handbook or buy a mini to use as a token and some dice, but in the end that's about it for the player expectation for the social contract. This becomes even less if you are playing online on a virtual tabletop. Now let's take a look at what the DM/GM is expected to do or purchase. The DM is expected to buy the Dungeon Masters Guide, Monter manuals, and the module (if a module is what you are running). Now let's take into account materials for either tabletop or virtual tabletop. The following material cost money or time to look for free versions on either platform. Costs of money or time include maps, assets to put on the maps, dungeon tiles or mats, resource books, software, etc. The list is too long to list here but those were some examples. Sourcebooks are a huge cost. If you ask your DM if he or she is using an optional rule out of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, would you expect them to know the answer? 9/10 times players would expect the DM to know information like this, but they would have had to purchase the books to know the answer. So, I would present the idea to others that it may be cheap for players to play, but not for your DM. I absolutely think that DM's should be able to make money running the game if they wish. They have invested more prep time, money, and creativity. Some individuals take for granted just how much their DM works for them to have fun. It may be enjoyable, but there is a lot of work involved.

[@kieslodarkmoon1510]

I cant really see myself paying to play with a certain Dm (Matt Mercer, any of You guys) I love D&D to death but i couldnt pay to play... but i do see Nates stance on it.

[@itonieshi]

With the sheer amount of effort that goes into making a good campaign be it single session or long running I don't see an issue with charging people to play, as long as the effort is actually there and you are open about the fee ahead of time. I personally have a campaign I have been working on for months that I am quite proud of (admittedly I am a relatively new DM that has studied a lot but there is a difference between book knowledge and experience,) and if I was comfortable enough with my own DMing and was well received I would gladly charge people for my effort. I view good DMing as a form of artwork and people pay for artwork all the time. On top of this, $8 per hour of sessions and split between four people is only $2 per person, I'd be kind of insulted if someone didn't think my time was worth at least that much. XD

[@Judasdfg]

If you're new to DMing and already insulted that people don't want to pay for your lack of skilll, no matter the price, you must be delusional. There is no substitute for experience. People pay for GOOD art all the time. Most artists never make it and need sidejobs to get by. Only exceptional artists manage to make a career out of it and often only after many years of relative poverty.

[@itonieshi]

jethrovaningen "and if I was comfortable enough with my own DMing and was well received I would gladly charge people for my effort." In reading this part of what I wrote, what makes you believe that I currently expect to be paid? What I was getting at about getting paid $8 an hour is that $8.15 is minimum wage in many places, if you are making DMing a job and aren't getting paid at least this much per hour it is an insult to someone no matter who it is.

[@Chapel85]

No joke I moved to an area in Minnesota where we dont have an LGS within 30 miles of our town and the places that are in the next towns over are 40 and 50 miles away. The city council probably won't approve of an LGS and there are a lot of people here that could play but not a lot that have a good portion of the know how. I'm considering offering my services as a DM in the area for 15 to 20 a head depending on how many players are in the group.

[@drragoon83]

I have payed before, a 5 dollar seasonal adventures league donation for purchasing adventures. That is pretty much the only reason I would pay in, to purchase books, minis, maps, and other adventuring supplies. That money has to come from somewhere. Also I buy a metric tone of miniatures every now and again anyway and most of the books myself. So 5 dollars isn't much comparatively.

[@Lord_Arn]

For me, I have a need to share my campaign with people, to get their feedback and help me evolve my story. I would almost be willing to pay to have people play with certain styles in my campaign. Almost. I get slightly offended & humbled when my players bring way more food & drink to my games, and then leave the extras. My skill as a DM is not enough that I would expect anyone to pay me to run a game, but maybe eventually it will be there. On the other side, I agree that as a part time job, getting paid to write & implement a campaign would be cool, until I wanted time off and had to deal with upset "customers". All of us at the gaming table are there to contribute to the enjoyment of the experience, otherwise why are you showing up or getting invited back. We all chip in for food & drink, and occasionally host the game location.

[@jerelfontenot1]

If it was a high quality, long-term campaign, I would pay.

[@The45thClown]

I've been here from when Scaramucci became communications director. The DM will also have higher costs in terms of planning time, models, scenery, books, etc. Throwing a bit of a contribution seems fair and not far from a fee.

[@JDad1337]

Making around 60k a year working medical lab I'd be willing to pay around 10-15$ per session if it lasted 2+ hours and was quality content. I would expect everyone else in the group to pay the same amount and would feel hurt if someone else was playing for free in the same game. That being said I've DM'd many times in the past during 4e back in high school and did so for my friends and fun so I grew up in the free to play environment. I feel like D&D is maturing as the player base takes on increasing responsibility and the value of an experts time is increasing in worth while the opportunity cost of DM'ing is increasing due to the time lost in prep. One of my friends who worked part time was spending 20+ hours a week prepping our sessions which is just amazing and he did it for free however the time sink eventually burned him. If it was socially acceptable to pay him he probably would have been able to keep the motivation for a lot longer. Also Dave, I believe you. You've got the same muscled with fat on top build I have.

[@BNBsBrainCancerJourney]

Anyone remember play by mail ads in Dragon magazine like 35 years ago? Paying a DM is not at all new.

[@glennferguson1265]

I have yet to be paid to run a game. But is always up to me to provide the terrain, minis and needed accessories. plus it is just way less effort for me to run from home as far as set up and take down. I always have at least someone complain that the terrain isn't good enough are the minis aren't all painted yet. Bit when I point out they could help by Pitching in to deferring my costs. the shut up. So I totally see why many GMs Charge.

[@toportime]

As someone willing to DM for Pathfinder games, I have taught so many new players how to play for free I have lost count. I count myself lucky though as my current group has multiple people willing to round robin DM none of us need worry about every paying to play, but I am not against the idea if that is the only way you can squeeze in enough time to fulfill your hobby needs.

[@keleitas150]

Maybe doing d&d sessions 8 hours a day wouldn't be great, but what about the rest? I was thinking that being a professional DM would be more than just running sessions You could run sessions, but you could write your own material and sell it, drawing maps and maybe stream. All of that needs to be high quality or course, from the story writing to the soundtracks, from the role-playing to the maps.

[@issacjr01]

You did not mention or consider the price of being a GM on a virtual table top, I do not collect anything from my players. I have however invested heavily in online content, over $500 as well as monthly internet and hardware maintenance. It's just another consideration.

[@ikashibimauler]

I have thought about posting a looking for players thread as "pay to play" for $15 bucks a session and then when someone applies simply play with them at *no cost* because I would have high confidence that person isn't going to be a problem. I already filled my group, but if anyone drops, that is my backup plan.

[@drkpaladin777]

When I was younger, money was scarce but had a lot of time, older now and dropping money on entertainment doesn't seem like a big deal. I still don't think paying a dm is ideal, but most people I know would prefer to play a game than run one, and I can see that working for some groups. With these guys, paying to play with someone who's show you enjoy doesn't seem like a problem. Fans want them to continue trying to have a full time creative career.

[@spyder6372]

In some form or another I have always played to play, buying drinks and food for the DM was just how It was. Provide character sheets and supplies. I'd the players responsibility.

[@Rohml]

My opinion on this is I, as a payer of the service, must get something beyond what I am getting if I played on a free table. It could be anything from the notoriety of the DM, or the total showmanship of the adventure (acting, ambiance, creative use of props and lighting during the adventure), or even freebies (ID passes as a souvenirs would be appreciated -- but this seems to be more for conventions.) heck even virtual freebies would suffice (magic item or in-game story awards -- This is true, I can be bought by loot.)

[@adm5618]

Nothing wrong with paying to play or charging to host. BUT the quality of prep from the DM should be excellent, refreshments should be provided/offered (dietary requirements etc) and the game should be very tailored to the characters motivations/backstories as well as the players desired campaign setting. I’d also argue there should be some off table time provided too - like a club.

[@joeincal3125]

Ok, so question. Has Wizards given permission to use their materials commercially, aside from Adventurers League? If not, how is it not a violation of their copyright?

[@TheDreamSyndicateArts]

Well see the massive grey market area that is commercial fan art. Copyright in part comes down to whether the owner wants to enforce it. I'd never run afoul of The Mouse, but comic book companies are usually pretty hands-off about enforcing their rights. -Formerly Nerdarchist Ryan

[@TonyHulk]

I don't get why this is an issue. If someone wants to charge and someone wants to pay then who cares? Even if the gm sucks and is evil, if people still pay that is their issue. I am for any price as well, same thing, if nobody wants to pay then they will be a gm not gaming because of the high cost.

[@McHaven07]

Wow, yeah, I can totally see Dave as a personal trainer--not even making fun; I mean it. Man's got energy; I could never do that, lol!

[@7Drummy]

I like the idea of pay to play. Im also have limited time but would like to find a game when I want it for the amount of time I like and minimal long term commitment. Also if people are paying a GM than probaly that person meets a professional standard, and if not than move to another table. Also the time should be well used, if players are paying for the time than they (I assume) going to be engaged and less distracted doing things like table talk for example. I have loved the groups Ive played with we have formed great friendships and it can be fun to joke around. However in my life right now this seems like a good possibility.I haven't yet but it it may be the best way to get a little game time in.

[@ElenaAideen]

Personally I've only ever 'Paid to Play' in the sense that in one group I played in we all pitched in to rent space at a local gaming shop for our sessions; and we each pitched in one dollar extra each session that went towards buying gaming stuff, be it minis, books, battlements, etc. The understanding was that all of the props and books then belonged to the DM as compensation for the extra time he spent prepping for each session. I fully expect that many if not most of the detractors of pay to play would find that arrangement acceptable.... Just saying.

[@chaddixon9764]

Nate doesn't shower, confirmed.

[@clerickolter]

$10-15 an hour would be good split between the players so for five players not that bad. But I want my interests included if I want to be a NE vampire assassin I want to play that.

[@jeremynadaskay7872]

@Dave What are some easy ways to improve grip strength? I'm finding myself having to take breaks mid set because I need to rest my hands so I don't drop the weights. I do some stretches but was wondering if there's anything specific I can do specifically to work on this.

[@jeremynadaskay7872]

Colin Deal Thanks for the tip. I'll try adding that to my routine. How often a week should I be doing it?

[@timelessadventurer]

I’m thinking of doing this for birthday parties and private events. Not sure how it’ll turn out but I think I’m going to try!

[@timelessadventurer]

I got a job moderating D&D at a community center for 6-8th graders! Not a bad deal! It’s only once a week for 2 hours but it’s something!

[@pelmen1294]

When money becomes involved in anything fun disappears.

[@dgtlrn]

i mean, i wouldn't even accept payment in my direction to play with dawnforged.

[@waynewilde]

I know this video is 5 years old but my god have yall seen HOW MANY PEOPLE PAY FOR DMs ONLINE NOW?!? Some ppl can actually be full time DMs nowadays, they exist and it’s crazy to think about

[@galo1486]

i would be okay to pay for a homebrew campaign, with at least homebrew races and scenario, but i thin i wound't pay for being elf going to a florets/dungeon killing a goblin for 400s time.

[@oxylepy2]

I honestly feel the players should pay for being players. They should bring food and drinks for the group, they should help out whomever the host is, they shoulf pay attention, and pay respect to the other players, the DM, and the venue

[@isaackarr6576]

Oh no someone paid for entertainment went out to a movie or a casino ,cable videogame....

[@GDub137]

I kind of have mixed feelings about this. A lot of Meetup groups around me charge a couple bucks to play in a game. The money goes straight to the DM, but also a lot of game shops near me charge a little bit to run a table in their store. So in that case paying the DM so they can rent a space seems perfectly normal to me. If the DM get any extra money above and beyond the rental fee, it's supposed to be money that they can put towards miniatures and books, and what not. Even that I have no problem with, those things aren't cheap and I don't see why the DM should bare all that cost on their own. But at the same time, having paid a DM before, sometimes it feels slimy. Part of the DM's role at the table is to be a neutral arbitrator of the rules and there can be a conflict of there when their players are paying them to play with them. I've seen huge tables like this where players basically get whatever they ask for and can basically get away with any crazy idea they come up with. And I guess if that's the kind of table you want to be at that's fine, but it's not very fun in my opinion… and the reason, I think, it happens is because the DM doesn't want to lose any players because it means they get paid less.

[@mitchell3789]

For me to pay for a DM, id have to see a video or two of them DM'ing. I've seen all three of you DM, even being in Nate's game. For a good DM id be willing to pay, a good DM makes a good game great.

[@michaelmorey3110]

I would think that the pay-to-play model would create tremendous tension for the DM because of the higher expectations to always be on their "A-Game". I mean, who wants to pay to play only to have a lackluster performance from the DM.

[@Finkeldinken]

I never understood why this is even a debate. If there are people who will pay and people who will take their money, what's the problem? I am not in either of those groups, but I simply cannot find the issue here.

[@TonyHulk]

hey guys, I was watching the Outkast sessions and did it stop at 4? I saw something like in the 20s as well...can you guide me to where to go next on those Outkast sessions? thanks

[@Agent29416]

I would pay(not a lot) if it ment I actually got to play in a physical group.

[@LittlxxPuDDing]

If it delivers quality entertainment, there shouldn't be a discussion if it could also be a profession.

[@sylvaincousineau5073]

personnaly i'm only asking tributes of beers and pizza , of which i paid my share for . Having a group to play D&D and getting a blast out of it , is my ultimate reward . :)

[@madmanwithaplan1826]

Honestly finding a balance of business model would be hard for my time I want to be paid at least 20 dollars an hour because even McDonald's pays you 15 and you get shit like insurance sick leave ect. Plus taxes I have to pay right. Now for a four hour session that's 80 dollars but for the 2 hours prep time I took that's another 40 making it 120 plus whatever sales tax for services rendered there is. Most people won't pay that per week so your gonna be rotating through groups like mad having 20+ groups per month. Now you can probably get someone to pay that going at it from a different angle. 7.50 per person per hour so 4 people 30 an hour extra ten rolls up to the 20 per hour you wanna get paid for your prep time and the lower amount per hour per person makes it seem more reasonable while still paying you well.